1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,280 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,480 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,680 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,720 In this podcast, I'm speaking to leadership and management expert 5 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,360 Joe Owen and Andy Alder, Managing Director of Major 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,320 Infrastructure Delivery at Anglin Water, about how to 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,200 delegate well. It's something every project 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,800 manager and leader needs to understand and practise 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,760 successfully if they want their teams to achieve what needs to 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,960 get done. So they give us their insider 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,240 do's and don'ts so that you can hone your mindset and learn how 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,000 to delegate better and actually who better to help us? 13 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,280 Andy was Thames Tideways Programme Director until 2023 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,960 and has spent his career managing and leading mega 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,880 projects and infrastructure projects. 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,760 With such impressive expertise under his belt, he tells me that 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,840 actually he first learnt how to delegate on camping trips and 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,240 scouts. Meanwhile, Joe is the founder of 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,480 Teach First and a go to expert and all matters to do with 20 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,120 leadership. He's the author of numerous 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,160 business books, including Smart Leadership, and is about to 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,840 publish How to Change the World, how social entrepreneurs can go 23 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,880 from initial ideas to global impact. 24 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,720 So we discuss everything from why you have to be able to 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,000 delegate to have successful projects, what usually goes 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,080 wrong, and how you can't delegate unless you can trust 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,000 your people. Listen on for their advice and 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,760 practical. Tips that you can use in your 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,560 projects, right? From today. 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,320 Andy and Joe, welcome to the OPM podcast. 31 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:49,920 It's nice to have you here. Thank you. 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,160 It's. Great to be with you. 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,800 Great. Well, I think an interesting 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,320 place to start would be for each of you to give me a bit of 35 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,680 background about your career. So, Andy, let's start with you 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,080 if you want to give me a brief overview of your career and the 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,640 kind of role you do now. So I'm a civil engineer by 38 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,400 background. I studied civil engineering and 39 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,960 the kind of first 6-7 years in my career were in design and, 40 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,160 and construction of, of major civil engineering projects, 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,640 particularly tunnelling projects in the UK, some internationally. 42 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,920 And then I was, I was getting to a point where the kind of 43 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:27,960 designer projects to, to bring together different aspects of a 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,480 multidisciplinary project needed more and more project 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,160 management. And I felt that was an area I 46 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,640 wanted to kind of take my career in. 47 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:38,240 So I did a project management master's at Reading University 48 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,800 and then spent the next kind of 10 years managing 49 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,160 multidisciplinary design and engineering projects. 50 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,440 And then Crossrail came along. So I so I moved on to, to 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,680 Crossrail and I started in a technical role and then LED 52 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,400 procurement and then delivery of some of the tunnelling contracts 53 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,600 on, on Crossrail moved on to Thames Tideway in 2015. 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,120 I ended up as programme director there. 55 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,520 So I was at Tideway for eight years where we did a lot of 56 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,200 work. I'm sure we'll come on to around 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,560 how do we really empower teams to deliver of their work and the 58 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,640 role of a project management programme management to 59 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:15,400 coordinate the work, but really empower and delegate so that 60 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,600 people can, you know, get that sense of their own in their 61 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,320 their part of the project. Since then, I now work at Anglia 62 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,280 Water, I'm managing director for our major infrastructure 63 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,600 delivery. So looking ahead at the next 64 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,160 investment programme and how we coordinate a £7 billion 65 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,000 programme over the next five years. 66 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,440 Thank you, Joe. Tell us a bit about your area of 67 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,320 interest. So, background. 68 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,800 I'm living evidence that career is a verb, not just a noun. 69 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,440 I started at Procter and Gamble and Brand Management, but the 70 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,360 belief Speckling Daz became the best nappy salesman in 71 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,480 Birmingham. Arguably my career had been 72 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,640 downhill ever since then. I think I decided to get into 73 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,960 consulting and which made me land up building a business in 74 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,840 Japan without speaking Japanese. I decided that was all far too 75 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,240 exciting, so I then decided to start a bank. 76 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,880 I got sued for $12 billion when a billion was worth something 77 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,959 along the way. And then I thought maybe I 78 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:19,320 better do something a bit better than that. 79 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,800 And so I start, I started to Teach First, which is now the 80 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,720 largest graduate recruiter in the UK, and eight other NGOs 81 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,720 since then, eight other NGOs with a combined turnover over 82 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,800 over 100 million a year. So I'm a sort of accidental 83 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,520 social entrepreneur, which has also led me to become an 84 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,320 accidental leadership guru because for Teach First, we had 85 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,160 to discover what leadership was all about. 86 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:48,400 So I've spent 20 years sort of looking at leadership right 87 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,040 around the world in all different contexts, all the way 88 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,800 from the nuclear deterrent through to 15 years worth of 89 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,920 hanging out with tribes around the world to see how they're led 90 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,080 and organised. And, and obviously delegation, 91 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,760 if you don't delegate, you're not a leader. 92 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,760 In fact you're probably not going to be a manager and you're 93 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,960 not going to survive. So delegation is absolutely at 94 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,720 the heart of it. And I'm now a fully fledged 95 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,200 leadership anorak. But when somewhere along the 96 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,840 line I became a became the head of research for the for one of 97 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:24,040 the political partisan in Westminster. 98 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,200 So yeah, it really is careers for not announcement. 99 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,800 Hey, the right is fun. I'd like to dive in with the 100 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:34,920 question I've most like answered, which is what do you 101 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,280 need to get right to delegate well and are there any myths 102 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:42,200 that need to be busted? So, Joe. 103 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,520 Yeah, we're talking about professionals here and 104 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,600 professionals are pretty smart and they've got, you know, they 105 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,600 want to do well. And is there a skill set around 106 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,640 delegation? Absolutely there there is. 107 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,720 But most professionals can get it pretty quickly and can do it 108 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,720 pretty well with without too much time, effort, training, 109 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,960 etcetera. The really biggest sue isn't the 110 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,440 skill set because you can train that. 111 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,240 The biggest sue is having the right headset and there are 112 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,240 there's a positive and negative here. 113 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,560 The positive is you've got to be able to trust your team. 114 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,440 If you trust your team, you will delegate to them because you 115 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,600 know you can delegate to them. OK. 116 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,560 If you don't trust your team, you're never going to delegate 117 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,240 them to them and either you've got the wrong team or the team 118 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,720 has the wrong manager. It's probably the second. 119 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:36,400 It's more likely to be the case. The trap on this is the headset 120 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,680 which says that the manager has to be the smartest person in the 121 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,080 room, which might have been true in the 19th century, possibly 122 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,840 throughout the 20th century, certainly not throughout the 123 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:51,080 21st century. Your job as a manager of 124 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,120 professionals of highly skilled professionals is not to be the 125 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,160 smartest person in the room. Your job is to get the smartest 126 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,880 people into the room and let them solve the problems for you. 127 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,760 And that requires very clear thinking about what your role is 128 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,280 as a manager versus their role. Do not try to be the smartest 129 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,040 person in the room. Do not take on the most 130 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,000 challenging problems all for yourself. 131 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,600 Show trust in your team, delegate to them, and they will 132 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,400 respond really positively because people respond when they 133 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,680 are trusted. They know when they're trusted. 134 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,920 They want to rise to the challenge. 135 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,400 They will be motivated to do well for you, and then when you 136 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,840 delegate them, they will learn and develop and become even more 137 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,560 valuable team members. Andy, would you agree with Joe? 138 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,000 100% agree. I think absolutely that that 139 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,160 being able to trust your team is is, is a hugely important part 140 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,880 of this. And that that comes from 141 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,280 selecting the right team in the 1st place, making sure you've 142 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:55,840 got the right people in the team. 143 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,840 But I think there's a, you know, starting out from a point of, I 144 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,280 think people come from it, either you, you, you don't trust 145 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,200 someone until they earn the trust or you, you trust someone 146 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,640 until they get to a point where, hang on, this is, this is not a 147 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,000 work win. I'm, I'm definitely for the 148 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,040 latter, you know, right, get the right people and trust them and, 149 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,560 and see how that works. And 99.9% of the time that that 150 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,160 is really effective. There's another part of, of 151 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,120 recognising that small projects are long term things often and 152 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,160 mega projects are very long term things. 153 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,960 And part of your role as a leader is not just to get the 154 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,880 job done, but to develop the team for, for that project and 155 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,919 for future projects. So accepting that some of the 156 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,120 process of delegation and empowerment is going to be a 157 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,280 learning process for, for everybody. 158 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,520 And that's in the long term, that's a, that's a, that's a 159 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,480 very valid part of what, what project management is all about. 160 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,360 And, and then exactly as Joe says, you're not there to be the 161 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,200 smartest person in the room. Often you're managing a team of 162 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:56,560 experts of different disciplines. 163 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,720 You can't possibly know more than they do about those 164 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,200 disciplines. Tide Waver was a good example. 165 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,720 We had 21 sites, project managers for each site. 166 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,560 They knew far more about that site and the challenges and the 167 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:12,320 issues and the risks and the stakeholders and and so on than 168 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,240 than I could ever think to try and learn. 169 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,960 So it's a kind of, it's a servant leadership thing in some 170 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,320 way of recognising those folk know most about that project. 171 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,000 And your role as the the overall leader programme manager is to 172 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,760 support those project managers in delivering their projects and 173 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,200 then to make sure they're being integrated and, and sharing 174 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,600 practise and learning, etcetera between them and, and 175 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,920 coordinating things. So and, and the point there is 176 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,200 really good the the manager has to be really clear about what 177 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,920 her or his role is, which which sounds obvious, but it isn't. 178 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,800 You know, often managers think their job is to take on the the 179 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,280 biggest and toughest challenges that the team faces. 180 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,640 They often have this problem of that I talk about as the leader 181 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,320 in the locker room that it's like the football player that 182 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,480 gets promoted to manager because they're a really good football 183 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,360 player. So they get promoted to being 184 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,640 coach and they're so excited. They go around thinking, oh, 185 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,080 I've now got to run twice fast, you know, score twice as many 186 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,800 goals, make twice as many tackles and then they get fired 187 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:13,480 and they go, well, what went wrong? 188 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,240 Well, the job of the coach isn't, you know, run onto the 189 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,680 pitch and tackle everyone and try and score goals. 190 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,240 The job as a coach is to, as Andy said to me, pick the right 191 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,920 team, the right tactics get get the right people to get the most 192 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,760 out of them and probably wave their arms on the sidelines a 193 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,360 bit. If it's football in in 194 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,120 management, it's a little bit more complicated because you're 195 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,640 surrounded by all these very smart people on your team who 196 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,360 can sort of do all the heavy lifting for you. 197 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:49,960 So if they do, if you delegate everything away, what's left for 198 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,480 you? And I think this leads to one of 199 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,320 the traps of delegation that people ask the wrong question. 200 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,840 They say, what can I delegate? And the answer is a very short 201 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,680 list actually, if you if you look at it that way. 202 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,640 So I tend to encourage managers to ask the opposite question, 203 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,720 which is what is it that I absolutely cannot delegate under 204 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,000 any circumstances whatsoever. And again, you come up with 205 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,800 actually a very short list, and that short list defines where 206 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,880 you as a manager really add value. 207 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,040 And if you just focus on that, then everything else goes and 208 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,040 you can do quite radical delegation. 209 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,840 I really like that I haven't just to flip it like that makes 210 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,640 such sense and to focus on what is unique to what you're doing. 211 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:40,640 What cannot be delegated? Andy, how did we learn how to 212 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,440 delegate? I learned to delegate when and 213 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,160 leadership generally. I learned when I was in the 214 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,520 Scouts way back and, and you know, the kind of training at a 215 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,280 time then was your, your role is to, and it, I mean, it would 216 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,400 have been fairly informal training, but you're, you're 217 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,600 there to get, you know, a particular task done. 218 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,280 I don't know that's to hike from A to B or get a tent put up or 219 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,680 cook a meal for the whatever it might be, but you're there to 220 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:08,360 get it done. You've got a group of five or 221 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,480 six, you know, others with you and part of your role is to make 222 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,080 sure they've got things that are useful to do and they're part of 223 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,720 the team. You're not doing everything. 224 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,120 They're, they're involved, they've got a role, they 225 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,960 understand what their role is and how that all fits together 226 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,120 and that they're enjoying it. And if they're struggling that 227 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:24,960 you're helping them out and if they're doing well, you're 228 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,120 recognising they're doing well. So it it cut it for me, it 229 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,040 stands right back to 40 years ago. 230 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:32,520 I didn't think you were going to say that. 231 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,840 I was thinking the first project you managed not to go all the 232 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,440 way back to the Scouts. But I mean, that's fantastic. 233 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,280 It it truly is. And then you, I guess you just 234 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,640 grow and build from and of course, I've had opportunities 235 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,760 through career to as managing teams and teams get bigger to to 236 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,560 do that. I was going to go back to the 237 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,560 point that Joe made there about when, particularly when 238 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,680 challenges come along, when, when projects have got some 239 00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:59,720 challenges or where there's something a really tricky 240 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,360 interface or, you know, a really difficult piece of work. 241 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,360 And that's the time you have to really trust your ability to 242 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,760 delegate because there's this kind of tendency of this is 243 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,040 really difficult. And when it, you know, someone 244 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,520 needs to come in and more senior take over the thing because it's 245 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,880 more difficult. And that's the and you can do 246 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,600 that is the time to just lean in and support the team more. 247 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,880 But really trust that the team who do this day in, day out and 248 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,280 are really good at what they do and you've empowered them to do 249 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,120 that. You stay there and support them 250 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,840 when it's challenging rather than potentially take that 251 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,720 empowerment away when things get a bit difficult. 252 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,480 And Andy, that's absolutely right. 253 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,520 Those are the moments of truth where you, you define how you 254 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,200 are seen as a leader because it is often so tempting to throw 255 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,200 all the good behaviours out around delegation. 256 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,760 And as you say, just take control. 257 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,920 And if you want a job doing, you've got to do it yourself. 258 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:58,920 All that kind of good stuff. And you do that in a crisis and 259 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,920 basically all, all trust in the team disappears because they'll 260 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,720 go, all right, we know that, you know, this boss doesn't actually 261 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,400 really, really trust us. So we we just do as do as we're 262 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,080 told. On the other hand, if you're 263 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,360 brave and you do trust them, it is amazing what these people can 264 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,640 do. I mean, people are just so good. 265 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:27,440 And actually, COVID was a great example where in one weekend, 266 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,240 yeah, we, we went from working from home, being sort of 267 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,360 shirking from home to being standard operating procedure. 268 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,800 No leader knew how to do it, but no one knew how to do it. 269 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,280 So everywhere people just told teams, well, you know, get on 270 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,200 with it and tell us what you need and tell us how to work it 271 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,040 out. And guess what? 272 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,080 You know, people did work it out. 273 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,520 You know, that that was a massive national experiment in 274 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:59,440 delegation under extreme circumstances and it worked very 275 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,160 well at the time. It's now unravelling for all 276 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,280 sorts of reasons. That's fine. 277 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,120 But you know, it just showed that, you know, professionals 278 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,400 and experts are good at what they do and as you say, trust 279 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,960 them, support them, and they will 99% of the time repay those 280 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,840 dividends that trust to you massively. 281 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,400 I think Joe Covid's a good example where if we had tried to 282 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,960 manage the detail of every site that was ongoing through Imagine 283 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,360 COVID, then no one's looking at what is the bigger picture and 284 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,000 how does it all this coming together and what do we do next 285 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,960 week, the week after and how do we work our way through this? 286 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,720 So the other part of delegation, whether it's things are going 287 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,880 well or more challenging, is it allows you to have the headspace 288 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,000 to look across the horizon, which is really part of our role 289 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,960 as leaders is to be looking around the corner, looking 290 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,760 across the horizon, what's coming up next and supporting, 291 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,320 coaching the team through some of those challenges rather than 292 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,840 being we're stuck in the detail, stuck in the weeds. 293 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,880 We're never going to be able to do that and then we're failing 294 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,360 our teams by not helping them to see see ahead. 295 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,400 We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the 296 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,720 project profession. When you become an APM member, 297 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,280 you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an 298 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,720 impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. 299 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,240 Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support 300 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,560 your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you 301 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,360 reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. 302 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,400 Because when projects succeed, society benefits. 303 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,280 As a leader, as a project leader, a project manager, that 304 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,520 there must be the right sort of culture to create on a team 305 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,480 where delegation and trust, I think they go hand in hand, 306 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,880 starts to embed itself amongst everyone, even those who are 307 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,560 reluctant to let go. I wondered if that's something 308 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,680 you found Andy and and have you got any advice on creating a 309 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,640 culture that that promotes delegation and trust on the 310 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,840 project? In, in through delegation, if 311 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,240 you're responsible for accountable for for a programme 312 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,160 or project and you're delegating, of course you need 313 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,319 to know what's going on because you're accountable for it. 314 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,359 So I think I think part of that is set in the kind of the make 315 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,880 sure that through delegation you've got the objective is 316 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,720 really clear. So there's 100% alignment 317 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:22,200 between, between the team as to what you're trying to achieve 318 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,800 and what success looks like. Alignment as to what the kind of 319 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,600 guardrails are, what the boundaries that say, look, if, 320 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,000 if it's staying within those boundaries, that's fantastic. 321 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,880 We'll have the, the weekly reports, the monthly reports, 322 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,320 etcetera. If it's straying outside of 323 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,200 those boundaries, that's the time to to flag up that there's, 324 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,920 you know, something that's not going as as planned and the 325 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,400 leader needs to know about it or, or you know, and it's a you 326 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,000 need to know about it. And it might be, I need a bit of 327 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,440 support. So I think being really clear on 328 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,360 on those boundaries or delegation authorities, however 329 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:55,920 that's, that that's framed is important. 330 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,800 I think there's a real bit about the kind of relationship 331 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,280 building and the, and the, and the culture where people, you 332 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,120 know, you're, you're, you're conversing on a regular basis, 333 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,160 you're, you're having, you're, you're taking an interest in, to 334 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,680 what's going on and, and asking the right questions about, have 335 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,000 you thought about this? What, what you know, are you 336 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,160 concerned about this? I've, I've noticed this, that 337 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,320 you're seeing the same thing, not to take responsibility away, 338 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,960 but just coaching folks to the coaching A-Team to see what the 339 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,600 challenges might be and be aware of it. 340 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,000 And through that, that kind of, you know, culture of trust or 341 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,760 psychological safety that, that people are comfortable to say, 342 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,160 look, I'm, I've got a bit of an issue here. 343 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,480 I'm a bit worried about this. I think you ought to be aware of 344 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,440 it. Or can you have a look and see 345 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,720 what you think about about it and a comfortable raising that. 346 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,040 And I think delegation is, is two ways that you you and 347 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,000 empowerment, particularly people want to be empowered and and 348 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,800 rightly so. But that does come with the 349 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,720 responsibility of doing doing the right thing. 350 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,000 And, you know, being able to demonstrate that you're doing 351 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,840 the right thing and, and working in in line with the, the values 352 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,480 of the organisation, the culture of the organisation, what's 353 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,760 really important. And being able to flag up when 354 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,480 there was when there are things of, of concern or of, you know, 355 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,960 or various of deviation that the the leader ought to be aware of. 356 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,680 So trust has to go two ways. In every organisation I, I've 357 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,240 started and chair and what have you, I encourage a culture of 358 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:28,360 radical honesty where issues can get raised and they get raised 359 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,320 early so that you can act on them and deal with them. 360 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,240 And that means you do have to create a safe space where you 361 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,960 know, if there is a problem, people don't get their head 362 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,080 bitten off. It's like, no, thank you very 363 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,080 much. That is incredibly helpful. 364 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,360 Now let's talk about how we fix the issue. 365 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,160 So that safe space is really important. 366 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,760 That comes down to the manager. And that's a cultural thing. 367 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,720 OK. The second piece is is that that 368 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:02,120 Andy mentioned is that delegation is possibly a two way 369 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,200 St. So let's talk about that 370 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,960 delegation downwards, obviously is good. 371 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,960 What I see some teams do is they try to delegate stuff back up 372 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,000 and they'll keep on coming to to the manager saying, oh, look, 373 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,160 you know, I've got this monkey on my back. 374 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,920 What do I do with the monkey? All right. 375 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,080 And so, you know, the manager being a very smart manager, very 376 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,240 good manager, says, I'll tell you what, you know, I'll, I'll 377 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,720 sort the monkey out for you. All right, fine, you take the 378 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,080 monkey and then realising that the boss is in a good mood, you 379 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,720 know, everybody else in the team come, you know, goes to the 380 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,080 manage with my mum. And by the end of the day, you 381 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,720 know, the manager has a room full of monkeys wreaking havoc 382 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,000 and, you know, managed thinks they've done terribly good job 383 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,400 by being very nice to each team member and sort of sorting out 384 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,480 their problems. But what's been going on is the 385 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:54,840 problems just been delegated upwards. 386 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,720 The better manager stays true to delegation and doesn't. 387 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,400 They can take the problem off their shoulders, but can help 388 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,320 talk the problem through, ask the right questions and coach 389 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:12,000 the team member to help them discover the solution that they 390 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,600 need. So they take the monkey away and 391 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,360 if their manager is really clever, they can give the person 392 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:18,920 another monkey to look after as well. 393 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,360 So that you know that room is inquired at the end. 394 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:26,680 But it's so Jeff be beware of the upwards delegation. 395 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,640 Yeah, I see nodding your head. You're agreeing, Andy. 396 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,280 Absolutely. So I think they're they're 397 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,480 they're sort of, you know, we all want to be empowered. 398 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,920 We want to have responsibility and have the freedom to choose 399 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,280 how to solve our problems. But that comes with a 400 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,560 responsibility that you do take ownership of those problems and 401 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,000 you, you inform where there's issues, but, but you don't pass 402 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,240 responsibility back up, You know, try to coach people in, 403 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,680 you know, whether that's in the general, you know, conversation 404 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,000 or updates or the regular project reporting is report on 405 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,880 the issues, but then report on issues, Say this is an issue, 406 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,600 but I'm dealing with it. This is an issue you need to be 407 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,240 aware of, but I'm dealing with it or this is an issue. 408 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,880 And actually I need some help with it. 409 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,560 And, and just kind of differentiate those out a bit. 410 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,960 And, and I totally agree with the psychological safety piece 411 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,760 where if people do raise a flag to say they're worried about say 412 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,560 it's concern or something's not gone gone well, the worst thing 413 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,520 you can do is bite your head off because you know very quickly 414 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,200 you're not going to find out what's going on. 415 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,200 There's a bit of a problem, isn't there, with a bit of blame 416 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,360 culture on projects when you've got different stakeholders 417 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:34,920 involved and partners. I mean, I'm sure you've 418 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,560 experienced that and I'm definitely detecting a move away 419 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,800 from that to a much more trusting and open and 420 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,360 transparent culture within projects. 421 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,680 But are things moving to a better place now? 422 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,520 And if you find yourself in that kind of projects or dealing with 423 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,320 other partners who have that mindset, how do you deal with 424 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,280 that? Feels less common now, but maybe 425 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,480 I've just been lucky as as Joe said earlier, I think you've got 426 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,720 a big role as a leader, you know, if pressure's coming onto 427 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:08,840 you. So I don't, you know, people are 428 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,360 getting a bit annoyed or frustrated. 429 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:12,440 They're blaming around the status or something. 430 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,560 You've got a responsibility as a leader. 431 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,280 Soak that up and, and then, you know, provide the, the air cover 432 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,840 to the team to let the team carry on doing what they're 433 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,800 doing. Because, because ultimately, if, 434 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,680 if things aren't going as planned, the last thing you need 435 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,120 is the team getting stressed about that. 436 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:30,400 The best thing you need is the team needs to stay confident and 437 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,520 stable and, and managing their way through the issue. 438 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,160 So you got to kind of shield them. 439 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,120 I mean, often that is, is reporting back up to say, look, 440 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,760 I know this isn't in the greatest of shape, but this is 441 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,240 all the stuff that people are doing. 442 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:43,400 You know, everyone is doing their very best and some 443 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,160 examples of, of what they're doing. 444 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,360 So you can, you know, go in, make sure the team are being 445 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,560 recognised for what they are doing in often under difficult 446 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,520 circumstances. And I, I see this a lot in 447 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,400 coaching people where it's always the fault of the other 448 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,240 person. Always, every single time. 449 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,240 And yeah, you get this long sort of story about how unfair the 450 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,200 world is and the I said, she said you meant and he didn't, 451 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,320 and they should have and I could have and they didn't. 452 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,720 That discussion is a completely redundant and useless 453 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,960 discussion. I let people dump that just 454 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,760 because they need to dump it so that they feel personally 455 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,200 vindicated. But then very quickly you just 456 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,000 have to move on to, OK, So what do we want to do about it? 457 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,240 If you really want to sort of you look back a little bit, you 458 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640 may say, well, OK, what would the other person be telling me 459 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,760 about this situation? And they often find that very 460 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,440 difficult to respond to. But even that's a slightly 461 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,960 dangerous, just move it forwards to what do we want to do about 462 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,360 this? Where's the solution? 463 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,800 What are your options? And then you quickly get a much 464 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,880 more productive and positive space and you can say, look, we 465 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,120 can do the post mortem later and they go OK, fine. 466 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,080 And later comes, later goes, you don't bother with the postmortem 467 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,560 because who cares by that point here? 468 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,120 By the time the problem is solved, don't care. 469 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,440 Yeah, I mean, 100% agree with you that with this challenge is 470 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,640 let's understand the facts of the situation, what are our 471 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,800 options, what's the way forward and move forward. 472 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,720 There may well be some useful learning to say, well, how do we 473 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,120 get in this situation and what learning do we need to to take 474 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,960 from that to to to share out. And, and that was another part 475 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,520 of our kind of philosophy on on tideways, we had 21 sites. 476 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,600 If you took health, health and safety as a particular example. 477 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,920 And we all share the view the most important thing we do every 478 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,640 day is make sure our teams go home safely. 479 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,720 You know, that that's that's fundamentally core, particularly 480 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,840 on big construction projects. So there's been a challenge, you 481 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,880 know, situation that's that where where safety's been put at 482 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,200 risk or potentially compromised on one side. 483 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,880 We need people to be comfortable to raise that there's been an 484 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,600 issue and report it. We need to then do the proper in 485 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,600 that safe environment, understand actually what 486 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,800 happened and what's they're learning from it, because then 487 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,840 we can share that with the other 20 sites and make sure they 488 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,440 don't have a similar problem. Because if it's happened 489 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,600 somewhere good people have found have have, you know, had a 490 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,520 problem on some on one site, you know, they've, they're 491 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,520 experienced, clever people and they've still had a problem. 492 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,760 It's, you know, highly likely that others would have the same 493 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,880 problem unless we share that. And that was part of back to 494 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,080 your point about the leaders role is not to deal with 495 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,720 everything, but it's to step back and make sure that we join 496 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,680 in the dots. I really wanted to get some 497 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,760 practical tips from how to delegate any hacks or tips 498 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,560 because Andy, one of the reasons I want to speak to you was, was 499 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,760 for your work on Thames Sideway and this idea of around decision 500 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,960 making and understanding what decisions could be made by 501 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,560 various people, by project managers and and surprising. 502 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:48,840 Can you tell us a bit about that? 503 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,760 And do do you have any real life examples where where delegation 504 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,360 works really well that you've learnt and would pass on to 505 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:59,280 other project professionals? Yeah, no, absolutely. 506 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,520 So, yeah, situation on type way, £4 billion projects spread 507 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,760 across 25 kilometres, three different construction joint 508 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,080 venture companies, 21 sites, project managers for each. 509 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,520 Quite, quite obviously we need to empower the teams to manage 510 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,800 their sites and their delivery areas that that's the only way 511 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,600 we're going to deliver a project at that scale. 512 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,200 And one of the things we did sort of practically is, is the 513 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,040 book turned the ship around. We used that as a kind of good 514 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,160 guidance, good kind of point of reference about delegation and 515 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,440 and really getting value out of the team and and how to empower 516 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:34,560 people. Is that? 517 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,000 Turn the ship around. By David Marquette. 518 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:39,520 That's it. That's the one. 519 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,800 Yeah. So just looking here that he's 520 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:43,840 U.S. Navy captain. 521 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,520 Yeah, the story of the book is U.S. 522 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,360 Navy captain trained to to operate one type of submarine, 523 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:54,320 but was deployed to to to lead a a different type of submarine. 524 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,520 And in the, the kind of expectation is every decision 525 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,320 needs to be made, needs to go up to the captain and say how do I 526 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,640 do this? And captain tells you exactly 527 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,120 what to do. It's so well, that's not going 528 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,120 to work. So into this kind of intent 529 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,040 leadership where captain sets out the vision, what the 530 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,880 objective is, what the what the kind of guardrails are. 531 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,720 And then people are coming and saying, look, this is a 532 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,400 situation, this is what I think I want to do about it because 533 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,560 they're the expert and the captain says, have you thought 534 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,160 about this? Are you, you know, have you 535 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,280 considered that? Yep, Yep, you know, have that 536 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,880 discussion. I said, OK, very well, that's 537 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,160 the that's the way to go forward. 538 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,960 So that balance of knowing what's going on with leaving, 539 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,640 you know, really empowering the team. 540 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,840 So we kind of use that as a kind of discussion book for coaching 541 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,600 and discussion about what we want to do and then set some 542 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,000 rules around what level of decision making flows from 543 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,080 project manager up to, you know, area delivery manager, programme 544 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,200 director, chief exec. And but then it kind of felt 545 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,320 like we weren't, it was working, but it wasn't really working as 546 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,440 well as we wanted. And I think there was a bit of, 547 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,400 you know, and over a fairly short period of time where 548 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,840 people think, well, am I really empowered? 549 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,800 Am I really trusted to do this? So we ran 2 workshops, one with 550 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,640 the chief exec and the exec committee that went down a list 551 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,160 of different scenarios that said which ones of these do we want 552 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,760 the CEO to have the decision on? Which one do we want the exec 553 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,200 committee, programme director, project manager and there. 554 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,600 And there really were only, you know, a couple of things where 555 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,480 the chief exec said, that's, that's a red button that only I 556 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,880 can press and the rest of it delegate down. 557 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,520 And then we had the same workshop with the project 558 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,880 managers on the same set of scenarios where some they say, 559 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,760 well, we want to make that decision and say, you know, 560 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,000 Jeff, guess what? The chief exec agrees that you 561 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,000 can make that decision. There's some they say, well, I 562 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,480 think the CEO should make this decision and say, well, the CEO 563 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:44,920 thinks that you should make the decision. 564 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,600 And we kind of talked those things through. 565 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,720 So we got that alignment where decision making played. 566 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,120 And of course, over time, we would need to coach that and, 567 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,280 and keep talking to make sure we're keeping things in the 568 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,520 right place. But that was a, that was quite a 569 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,520 useful exercise to get everybody aligned in kind of decision 570 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,560 making and authority. I finally learned the art of 571 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,240 delegation, not from the Scouts, because I didn't join the 572 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,680 Scouts, but from two sources. First, the laziest manager ever. 573 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,600 And he was brilliant, which meant he was brilliant at 574 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,360 delegating. He delegated everything. 575 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,600 So he had a very nice easy life. I mean, and so here, the art of 576 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,680 lazy management, I sort of thoroughly subscribe to, if 577 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,600 you're really, really good at this and you know, where you add 578 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,920 value. And he always talked about 579 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,520 successful conversation. You know, how do I set you up 580 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,440 for success? Which is great. 581 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,720 Isn't that a lovely conversation? 582 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:42,120 How do I set you up for success? And the essence of the success 583 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,960 conversation, I learned from the James Bond film where at one 584 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,120 point the villain, and it calls the story of how he started out 585 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,800 as a journalist on a rag in Hong Kong or somewhere. 586 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,160 He said all journalists had talked to answer The Who, what, 587 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,400 where, when and how. And he said, but by far the most 588 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,640 interesting question is always why? 589 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,320 And that's the success conversation. 590 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,480 Who, what, where, when and how. It'd be really clear about 591 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,120 those. But by far the most interesting 592 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,360 question is always why are we doing this? 593 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,400 What why are we really trying to do this as opposed to other 594 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,440 things? And once you understand the why, 595 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,640 then then the team member can make all those trade-offs 596 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,520 around, you know, do I go this way or that way on on those 597 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,560 marginal calls? But if they don't understand the 598 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,920 why, they're going to keep on coming back to you and saying, 599 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,440 should we do this or should we do that? 600 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,320 So I just always now just think of the success conversation. 601 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,400 And then at the end, I always explicitly say, yeah, so are we 602 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,760 set up for success? Is there anything else you need? 603 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,640 Can you see any obstacles that will stop you? 604 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,080 Oh, and then I always say, well, you know, why don't we just come 605 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,000 back in 24 hours and talk about it again because inevitably you 606 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,720 think you've done the delegation. 607 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,560 Delegation is not an event where you just say here it is and go 608 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,160 away. It's a continuing discussion 609 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,560 where people are trying to really internalise what to do 610 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,960 and how to do it because you've thought about all the trade-offs 611 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,960 in your mind, you're very clear about it. 612 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,040 Your team members are not mind readers, so you have to make it 613 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,800 a conversation where it's a slow process of discovery and you 614 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,160 have to be patient with that. And talking about why, one of 615 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,360 the questions I wanted to ask is why delegate? 616 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,760 If your early career project manager and you've been doing 617 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,800 very well and perhaps that's your first chance to manage the 618 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,080 team or your manager going up into a leadership role, why 619 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,400 should you be a good delegator? Because you you will fail 100% 620 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,280 if you don't delegate. It is that simple. 621 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,880 The rules of survival and success change at every level of 622 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,280 So you know when you're in the front line, it's all about doing 623 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,360 it yourself and showing you the good and you've mastered your 624 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,840 trade. You know, just like the 625 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,600 footballer on the football field show, you can kick the ball and 626 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,560 run around. Your job as the coach is not to 627 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,600 kick the ball and run around. Your job as the coach is to 628 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,920 select the team, train the team, develop the team, make sure 629 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,720 they've got the right resources to term the tactics, all that 630 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,600 kind of good stuff. It's a fundamentally a different 631 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:28,160 job, which is why you know, so many great footballers are not 632 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,560 great managers and you know, journeymen footballers often 633 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,960 become great managers. They're different jobs and 634 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,240 equally becoming a director of a football club is completely 635 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,400 different again. So you, you just have to learn 636 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,800 it And, and if you can't delegate, the first signs of 637 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,160 trouble are you will be working far too long, you will be 638 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,600 getting far too stressed and your team will be getting 639 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,400 alienated and antsy. And if you want to find what the 640 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,600 problem is, look in the mirror, OK? 641 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,960 And the problem is fundamentally that you're not not delegating 642 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,360 and you're not trusting. So, but equally, if you do 643 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,440 delegate and trust, your team will respond. 644 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:13,960 Their motivation will go up, their performance will go up, 645 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,320 their learning will go up. They'll be better and more 646 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,760 valuable team members. Andy, I wanted to ask you, what 647 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,600 have you learned over the years about how to let people get on 648 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,639 with the job, but equally they feel supported and you get the 649 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:29,639 best from them? What? 650 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,960 What's what advice did you pass on? 651 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,199 I think there's, I think back to something Joe said right at the 652 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,560 start is this, there's a, there's a mindset thing to start 653 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,920 to start with. And just, if we remembered back 654 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,280 in our careers a bit when you were, when you're first trusted 655 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,880 and you're empowered and you, you own a project and you're 656 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,000 responsible for this thing. But you know, the feeling you 657 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,120 get the, of being trusted to do something and this task, this 658 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,159 activity, this, this thing is, is yours to manage. 659 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,480 You've got the flexibility to decide how it's done. 660 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,240 It's really empowering and, and you and you want to put your 661 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,360 best into it. So I think there's a bit of 662 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,320 remembering ourselves and, and passing that on, you know, the 663 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,040 mindset of passing that on and and we all know when you we've, 664 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,560 if you've had a micromanaging boss who then starts telling 665 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:15,800 you, no, I don't want it done like this. 666 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,600 I want it done by that. You're like, it's pretty 667 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,720 demotivating and you know, you feel like the point so well, 668 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:22,840 just you just tell me how to do everything or what you know, why 669 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,520 don't you do it yourself then? So not being that that person 670 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,960 is, is a mindset thing. I think knowing as a leader or 671 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,640 manager that if you're spending all your time micromanaging 672 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,400 someone, you're actually not doing a thing you're really 673 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,080 there to do, which is to, to look at the bigger picture. 674 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,560 But I think it's just that conversation that you're 675 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,120 agreeing with someone. This is what the purpose, the 676 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,440 objective of the, of the task or the activity, you know, making 677 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,600 sure they understand what that is and what good looks like. 678 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,240 And if you're, if there's things that you're saying, well, you 679 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:58,920 know, this is what you need to do, but the, the budget is that 680 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,000 or the time frame it is this or the standards we need to comply 681 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,760 with are those so that people know what boundaries they can 682 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,760 operate in. And, and having that 683 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,960 conversation, it's clear. And it's as much about listening 684 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,400 as it is about talking. So people get the chance to play 685 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,240 back their understanding and what their, what their thinking 686 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,600 is and what they're worried about and giving people the 687 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,280 opportunity to come back and having looked at the tasks 688 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,520 they've got to come and say we're at, well, this is, this is 689 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,920 how I'm thinking about doing it. This is the steps I'm planning 690 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,560 to take. So you can have the sort of 691 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,440 conversation that that doesn't direct them how to do it, but 692 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,360 asks the right questions to make sure that risks are being 693 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:38,960 considered properly, opportunities being considered. 694 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,920 You can coach people through that without micromanaging it. 695 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,680 So you're getting the right kind of control and guidance and 696 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,880 support. But people are, you know, 697 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,800 enjoying that you have the opportunity to to own something 698 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,240 and be empowered to to do it. And then the, as as we said 699 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:58,080 earlier on, that's that the relationship so that people, if 700 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,120 they are a bit worried about something, they can, you know, 701 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,480 put their hand up, give you a ring, come and tap you on the 702 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,440 shoulder and say, look, can we just have a chat about this? 703 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,240 Because I'm a bit bit worried about this. 704 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,520 Was there any other bits of advice you haven't had a chance 705 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,480 to give, or anything you'd like to mention? 706 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,640 Any thoughts? Just trust your team, That's it. 707 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,760 Fully agree with that. And, and I guess also we, we 708 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,160 come into our industries and Koreas thinking we want to 709 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,920 achieve something. In my case is I want to build 710 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,800 projects that are making a difference in the world. 711 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,800 And then you get to a point in your career where you realise 712 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,720 actually there's only so many things you can build in your 713 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,160 career. But what you can do is if you're 714 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,160 coaching and training and developing the next generation 715 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,800 of leaders, they're going to be building stuff way past your 716 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,880 retirement and doing the same for for others. 717 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,560 So there's a massive part of our of our role as leaders is to 718 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,560 develop the next generation of leaders rather than just doing 719 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,680 what we can in our career. Andy, that's a great way to end 720 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,880 this podcast. Thank you so much for your time. 721 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:12,200 That's been brilliant. Thanks again to Andy and Joe for 722 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,160 joining us and to you for listening to the APM podcast. 723 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,240 I hope they've given you much food for thought and practical. 724 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:20,200 Advice on how you can delegate better. 725 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,560 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rating 726 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,480 reviews wherever you get your podcasts. 727 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,120 We'd. Welcome you to get in. 728 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,720 Touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by 729 00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:34,240 emailing us at APM Podcast at. Thinkpublishing.co.uk. 730 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,520 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 731 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,120 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 732 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,480 visit. Apm.org.uk.