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Hello and welcome to the APM 
podcast brought to you by the 

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chartered body for the project 
profession. 

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My name is Mike Hein and I'm the
online editor of apm's project 

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journal, and I'll be hosting 
today's episode. 

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In 2020 to our podcast guests 
have shared their advice and 

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experiences on everything from 
putting telescopes into space to

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discovering sunken ships at the 
bottom of the Antarctic. 

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Sea, As the year, draws to a 
close, we thought it would be 

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worthwhile taking a look back at
some of the lessons we have 

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learned in 2022. 
So in this episode will be 

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collating some of our favorite 
highlights from episodes. 

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You may have missed earlier in 
the year, we've got insights 

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from NASA, a former cabinet 
minister, and a BBC television 

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presenter to share with you 
proof, If ever it was needed 

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that the reach of projects and 
project management grows ever 

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wider. 
Before we kick off, we'd like to

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give a shout-out to you the 
listeners, thank you for your 

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continued support throughout 
2022, will be back in the new 

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year, with much more content. 
So keep your eye out for future 

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episodes wherever you get your 
podcasts. 

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So, without further Ado, let's 
take a look back at some of the 

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highlights of an action-packed 
2022. 

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One consistent theme within 
project management is change and

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how to bring people with you as 
a project leader. 

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In June, we published a podcast 
about the people side of change 

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management, which featured Joe 
Stanford head of corporate 

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portfolio office at health, 
education. 

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England. 
As well as discussing the 

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importance of role modeling and 
psychological safety Joe. 

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Shared her advice on how to get 
buy-in from stakeholders to make

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change happen and explain why it
is critical to start with, why 

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it really all needs to be 
underpinned with? 

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Why are we doing it? 
And people will buy into a 

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process, they won't buy into a, 
you know, a financial element or

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a particular, you know, way of 
doing. 

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Doing something, you know, say, 
oh well, we need to do this 

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differently. 
What they buy into is a sense of

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purpose, they buy into a cause, 
or a belief or a sense of 

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belonging. 
And, and so, the starting point 

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with yourself and with your team
is, why, why are you doing this?

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What's what's the purpose of it?
What's the aim of it? 

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What is it that you are going to
achieve? 

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Because people people will rally
to a Was and I say yes, that's 

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something. 
I believe in that something, and

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it's an emotional response. 
It's something a personal. 

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And, and when you're starting 
out with this, you've got to 

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have a really clear sense of 
why. 

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Why is it important? 
Why is it going to make a 

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difference? 
What's the the impact? 

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It's going to have both on the 
world on your customer base or 

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what's the value to them and to 
you and doing it by setting the 

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wire you You can bring people 
together to help to shape the 

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how and the what and if you've 
got that ultimately that keeps 

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you connected that, you have 
that ultimate cause that we're 

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going to work on this. 
This is a really important 

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thing. 
This is why it helps you get 

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past the individual conflicts 
that you might have where people

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are, wedded, pursue particular 
ways of working or particular, 

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you know, what they want to do 
or particular ideas because if 

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Can bring people back to the 
thing that joined them together 

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in the first place, which is 
the, why are we doing this? 

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It helps to get beyond the 
individual and keep people 

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focused and therefore it becomes
not a personal thing. 

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If your particular idea isn't 
followed or that particular way 

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of working isn't going to be the
one that we take. 

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If you keep people focused on 
the Y and then you set your 

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measures and outcomes linked to 
that, why? 

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And how do we Ino. 
We've achieved that that's the 

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thing for me that is really 
critical in terms of setting the

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team up to start with the Team 
Dynamics. 

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But also they're going to go out
with conviction and with passion

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and with purpose when they talk 
to stakeholders and customers 

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and the ends of users and 
they're going to take that 

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passion and and commitments and 
in going to infect others with 

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it, they're going to infuse that
and that's what gets people to 

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join in. 
That's what gets people. 

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To go on the journey is that 
sense of of belief and belonging

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and wanting to be a part of 
something. 

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Many of us have just celebrated 
Christmas 2022. 

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But last year December, the 25th
is a particularly exciting day 

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for scientists engineers and 
project professionals at Nasa, 

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due to the long-awaited launch 
of the James Webb Space 

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Telescope. 
The telescope gives Humanity, a 

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new eye in the sky with infrared
sensors, that will peer into the

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farthest reaches of the cosmos 
to observe. 

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The universe is first galaxies 
reveal the birth of planets and 

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stars and look for exoplanets 
with the potential for life. 

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Back in March the podcast, spoke
to Bill Oaks project manager for

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the James Webb Space Telescope 
who is based at NASA's Goddard 

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space flight center in Maryland 
USA. 

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As well as giving us a behind 
the scenes. 

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Look at what it takes to lead a 
team at Nasa. 

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Bill shared his perspective and 
what makes a great project 

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manager and gave advice on how 
to handle complex projects. 

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Will you talk about project 
management? 

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Every project manager, whether 
you're within NASA or wherever 

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you're probably working, you 
kind of have your own style and 

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technique. 
And one of the things you need 

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to do is to understand within 
that style and technique your 

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strengths and weaknesses. 
There's none of us are perfect. 

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So I cannot sit there and tell 
you I'm the perfect project 

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manager. 
I got strengths across 

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everything you need to need to 
recognize where your weaknesses 

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are and then build upon it, you 
know? 

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I was a good engineer, and 
notice how I said was there are 

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many project managers who thinks
they're still the best engineer 

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out there and then that takes 
away from your management skills

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and your ability to be a project
manager. 

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So, I learned a lot about, you 
know, you need to be a listen to

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people. 
I always tell folks. 

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One of the number one things I 
say is you need to have a 

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bartender's ear. 
Mark, on your listens, your you 

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are the chief. 
Chief risk mitigation person on 

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the project. 
I mean, you may have Risk 

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Managers and other Engineers but
you are the one that makes those

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decisions at some point. 
What advice would you give to 

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project? 
Managers of project leaders, 

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around a hill, working on 
complex projects? 

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What have been the main lessons?
You've learned working on 

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Project like this. 
Oh, we're closely with your 

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team, you know, communication 
aspects of it. 

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Listen to your team, find the 
folks that you really trust. 

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I mean, you need to be able to 
trust the folks that are working

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for you. 
Direct that you are your direct.

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Works and you build that just by
communicating with them and 

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trusting this the skill set that
I have, but that also comes down

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to understanding the skills that
they have. 

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Not everybody is perfect for 
every job. 

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If you find that somebody has 
been misplaced in a position, it

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doesn't mean you have to get rid
of Martha project. 

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You may say, hey, there's 
something over here, the better 

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suited for your skill set, get 
him involved with that, get them

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interested in that. 
And then you bring the another 

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person into that job that may 
have the more The better skill 

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set for that position. 
And that's one of the things 

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I've talked about The Forecastle
times. 

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You start out with a project 
organization but as you move 

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through the life, cycle of a 
project, you're going to need 

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the tweak that organization 
depending upon where you are in 

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that life cycle. 
So we're sure you have the 

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right, people in the right jobs 
that you have the right 

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organizational structure for 
that phase of the project. 

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So that's always important from 
a project managed to kind of 

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maybe once a year. 
Take a look at where you are 

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with your organization and do. 
I need to make any changes from 

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a Structure standpoint or moving
some folks around to really take

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advantage of their skill sets. 
Moving from the world of science

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and technology to the UK public 
sector. 

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Our next podcast highlight comes
from the conversation between 

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former cabinet minister. 
The right honourable Justine 

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Greening and a p.m. chief 
executive Professor, Adam 

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bothersome Justine shared her 
experience as a senior minister 

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in several government 
departments and reflected on how

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well understood, the project 
profession is within the higher 

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ranks of the Civil Service. 
Since leaving government Justine

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has continued to be a strong 
advocate for social mobility and

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her podcast interview explored. 
How the project profession fits 

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into the goal of increasing 
social mobility in the UK. 

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We highly recommend. 
You check out that episode in 

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Full Do you think politicians 
and civil servants know enough 

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about the project profession and
evaluate can add to their 

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careers? 
Not even remotely enough? 

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No, it's crucial, because you've
got to bear in mind for our 

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democratic system. 
You know, it works by having 

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people elected and they are as 
it were lay people, they 

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probably got a special ISM in 
some kind of very they worked in

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before Parliament, but then 
they're put into running 

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departments and so, you know, 
often the challenge. 

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Has you are literally running 
those departments. 

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And yet I was lucky in the sense
that I'd worked in some bigger 

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larger organizations as a 
finance person, I guess if 

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you're in finance or project 
management you probably 

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relatively numerator and you 
know what you're looking for in 

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terms of how to check if things 
are on track and what management

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information you need. 
And I think there's a bit of a 

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gap there. 
Definitely for politicians on 

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the nuts and bolts of their own 
skill set. 

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Order to be successful. 
And then, I guess, within the 

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Civil Service, the the sort of 
sexy part of civil service has 

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been all the policy development 
when actually increasingly it 

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really needs to shift to be much
more who's great at delivering 

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projects on the ground 
successfully because there's no 

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point having the best policy in 
the world. 

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If you can't deliver it, then it
won't come to anything. 

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We've got some a p.m. members of
course, who will be in some of 

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those departments which are a 
bit behind the curve. 

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Of, what advice would you give 
to them in terms of how they 

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could help to shift the dial 
within their own Department? 

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I think, I think it's having the
consistent approach across 

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departments on project 
development and delivery and and

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speaking with one voice. 
So for example, I think the 

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government Finance organization 
across government, had 

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increasingly, learn to work 
collectively and did work. 

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Collectively on what good look 
like, what good process look 

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like. 
How to develop business cases. 

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And, you know, it might all 
sound a bit Bonkers. 

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You know, of course, you'd 
expect government and civil 

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service, departments, to develop
strong business cases, but that 

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isn't always the case. 
And as you said, Adams, some 

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departments are better than 
others. 

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I would actually say the best is
best business cases I had were, 

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when I was at the department for
International Development, 

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mainly because there was so much
scrutiny on every single penny 

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of spend actually that had led 
to The department really kicking

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the tires on absolutely 
everything before it was ever 

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signed off. 
By contrast when I went into 

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education, you know, much less 
business case development per 

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se. 
But a real need for it. 

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Because if you're going to 
compete, for example, with the 

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department for transport on 
investment saying, pupil 

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referral units, and you want 
that investment and you're 

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making the case, it should go 
into that rather than Fixing 

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more potholes, then you do need 
a business case approach, that's

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really bolted down and it's what
I always expected to see as a 

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finance person and if you don't 
have that business case and this

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is what we really did in 
differed, you haven't really 

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ever got that parameter that 
that kind of game plan against 

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which to then compare progress 
and you know it's absolutely 

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crucial. 
If you're going to have strong 

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project management that the 
project itself is obviously 

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spect up. 
Well at the very very Very 

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beginning. 
We are always looking to 

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interview guests, who can 
provide a fresh perspective on 

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the world of projects and 
project management. 

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So, we were delighted this year 
to secure an interview with 

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veteran journalist. 
Evan, Davis presenter of BBC 

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fours, daily news program, p.m.,
and former main presenter of 

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news night and the today, 
programme Evan is also well 

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known as the presenter of 
Dragons Den. 

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And on radio for he hosts a 
weekly business discussion 

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program called the bottom line 
in his podcast. 

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Interview. 
Evan gave an informed outsider's

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perspective on the importance of
projects to the economic 

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political and cultural life of a
country. 

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He is talking about how major 
projects are perceived and the 

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reputation of the profession 
among the general public. 

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I think we should demand of the 
people planning projects that 

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they have a high bar for public 
value. 

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That we do not want to waste 
construction, scarce 

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construction, resources, public 
money, and the design, and other

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capabilities of our country on 
white elephants. 

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So we should be demanding and, 
and that means cost benefit 

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analyses and all the 
conventional tools of, you know,

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Raisa. 
Love projects are absolutely 

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important to society. 
Can't give up on those. 

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And the treasury is right to say
to people we're not just going 

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to throw money at stuff, because
it looks great. 

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And they're like, we need to 
have some vision for the shape 

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of the nation and sometimes the 
cost benefit analysis adding up 

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the time Savings of the, the 
kind of the existing customers 

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on a train. 
For example, may not capture the

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benefits of something, a hundred
years hence or 50 years. 

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Hence, I think you, you have to 
be careful about being to 

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accountants. 
Focused on it. 

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He's project managers are fully 
understood and fully appreciated

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in this country, or do you think
they just get it in the neck? 

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No I don't think project 
managers have a bad image. 

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I don't think the public have a 
very clear idea project 

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managers. 
I think what happens is the 

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public gets annoyed when they 
see crossrail was meant to open 

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in 2018 and is opening 2022. 
And so that's that the - but The

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truth is the public Swoon over 
some of the great achievements 

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of the project managers and they
love it when they go. 

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Right. 
And I think what you really see 

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out there is a kind of a complex
amalgam of different feelings 

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and Views projects, we hate it. 
When they're being built and 

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there's disruption we love it. 
When we walk through the Swanky 

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new Railway stapling or travel 
on the fancy new train. 

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So I broadly speaking, I I don't
think they do have a bad image 

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project managers. 
And in, as far as it's a 

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complicated Love/Hate 
relationship, as I think it is, 

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I think probably deserved, you 
know, the public, the public are

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entitled to say. 
You said this would be delivered

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and it wasn't. 
And, and we were a bit fed up 

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with that. 
One major story from this year 

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with the long delayed opening of
London's Elizabeth line, 

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otherwise known as crossrail. 
As one of the largest 

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Transportation programs anywhere
in the world, crossrail had a 

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high profile from the outset but
often found itself in the 

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headlines for the wrong reasons.
Mark wild took over as CEO in 

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2018 as a time of Highly 
publicized budget and deadline 

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overruns but successfully 
steered the program to its much 

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celebrated opening this year 
before stepping down. 

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Having successfully turned 
around such a complex and 

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fraught program. 
Mark was ideally placed to tell 

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the APM podcast, why he thinks 
so many major programs are late 

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and over budget. 
Here he is talking to project 

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Journal. 
Contributor Andrew Saunders. 

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Is it inevitable that big 
projects are always be late and 

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over budget contemporary 
perspective? 

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If you look at the research from
Oxford, particularly you will 

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find that. 
Yes, the vast majority of major 

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programs run the world. 
Are they doing over budget? 

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I think three big things are 
happening in the world now that 

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are really significant in major 
programs. 

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Firstly, the getting bigger 
cross real used to be the 

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biggest in Europe, and the fifth
biggest in the world now. 

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00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:05,400
Cross real wouldn't get in the 
top 10 globally and it wouldn't 

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get The top three in Europe, so 
projects, getting bigger, there 

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is a massive rise of 
digitization massively. 

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And of course, there's a huge 
drive to NetZero. 

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Now. 
To me, those Dynamics on top of 

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a situation that you've pointed 
out that they're all laid 

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anywhere, really calls to change
about how you manage these 

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00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:28,300
programs because I think they 
are so big and complex. 

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00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,000
Now, a new approach that the 
kind of the big learning, which 

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00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,600
we can get onto out across for 
others. 

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00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,400
Maybe he's in your approach, but
to your point, yeah, every major

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A program in the world seems to 
have problems. 

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00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,300
Fundamental lesson across. 
Rome was setting a singular end 

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00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:49,300
date and quite a visible Public 
Funding envelope. 

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00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:53,700
They said December 18 and 
fourteen point eight billion 

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00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,500
years in advance and made that 
very very public. 

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00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:01,500
The big learning Ida crossrail 
is do not set singular, and 

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00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:04,400
dates and mmm love. 
Think about more windows of 

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00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:14,400
uncertainty. 
That concludes our Roundup of 

317
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,300
the year's highlights, but of 
course, there are many more 

318
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,700
powerful lessons for project 
Professionals in our back, 

319
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:22,600
catalog of podcasts. 
So, why not go back and have a 

320
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,400
listen over this festive? 
Period. 

321
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:26,900
We also want to hear your 
stories. 

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00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,000
What did you learn in 2022 and 
what goals and challenges are 

323
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,300
you anticipating in 2023, we're 
always Keen to hear your 

324
00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:40,500
thoughts at a p.m. podcast at 
think publishing .co.uk. 

325
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:44,800
If you've enjoyed the content, 
we put out this year, please 

326
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,000
leave us a review wherever you, 
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327
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Thank you for your continued 
support and we look forward to 

328
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:53,100
bringing you more episodes in 
2023. 

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00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,100
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333
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