1 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,560 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,920 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita, and I'm 3 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,200 the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,880 today. In this podcast, we're talking 5 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,960 to Antonio Nieto Rodriguez, HBR, author and Vice President of 6 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,040 APM, about his new book, Powered by Projects Leading Your 7 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,800 Organisation in the Transformation Age, which is 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,440 published by Harvard Business Review Press in January 2026. 9 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,640 In it, he argues that CEOs must put projects, not operations, at 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,080 the centre of how their companies create value. 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,960 But where does that leave the project managers in that 12 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,400 organisation? And how can every project 13 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,440 professional future proof themselves? 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,160 Welcome, Antonio to the APM Podcast. 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,519 Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Emma. 16 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:09,400 It's always a pleasure talking to you and talking to our APM 17 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:10,480 colleagues. Thanks. 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,360 Thank you. Well, I'm going to dive straight 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,040 in there. And in your new book, you argue 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,800 that organisations should be organised around projects, not 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,200 operations. Why? 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,800 It's because what in a business you have two main areas and and 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,760 all goes around them, the operations, we call it business 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,440 as usual, running your business or your organisation that has 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,880 been the focus of the last hundred 150 years. 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,840 And then there's the change part in the projects and, and so far 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,560 most organisations have been built around operations and 28 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,760 projects are site activities. And then what we've seen is 29 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,760 with, with technology, things are moving much faster. 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,280 That's why we saw the, the, the creation of agile and, and agile 31 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,320 organisations. So that's right. 32 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,120 That movement tried to disrupt how things were done in 33 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,640 organising the past and they they didn't do it that part. 34 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:20,040 So it created new ways of working. 35 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,480 But agile is not the final because a stage for me, the 36 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,520 final story when operations shifts and projects come on, on, 37 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,560 on, on the top, on the core. And that's how I came with the 38 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,720 with the concept of project driven projects are the centre 39 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,000 projects are the value creation of a business. 40 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,760 And and that's how I came with the name. 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,920 I know in your book you kind of explain how we got to the 42 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:50,760 situation, but I definitely remember interviewing project 43 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,440 professionals during COVID and suddenly they were propelled 44 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,160 from being the project managers to keep the business going. 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,680 And I think that really did a lot to elevate the understanding 46 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,400 of project management and the status of the organisation, how 47 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,960 critical they they actually were keeping the business going. 48 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,200 Do you? That's part of the reason that 49 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,680 that organisations are shifting more to being project focus to 50 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,560 organise around projects. I think the the bigger shift MI 51 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,400 is the the high level of automation that we're seeing, 52 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:31,160 robotising and AI, which luckily for the time being, AI and 53 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,520 robots will not be running projects. 54 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,680 They will be very important artner for us, but the main 55 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:43,080 target is every activity that is reetitive, every role that I 56 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,640 always say, if you're working with the same people all the 57 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,240 time and you do similar them things all the time, that means 58 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,040 that your job is at stake. So all these activities are 59 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,280 going to be replaced by this new technology. 60 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,680 So what is left for people? Where do we need the people? 61 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,840 Where do we need our capabilities is in change in 62 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,080 transformation projects. So I think that's where the 63 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,440 biggest trans change or disruption happens. 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,000 And the the only challenge is I don't know how fast this will 65 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,279 happen. Yeah, maybe in six years, maybe 66 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:24,800 in one year, because these are moving very fast, these new 67 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560 technologies. This really is like a 68 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,160 transformational shift in the way that we see the management 69 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,280 of organisations and and the way CEO views their organisation. 70 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:37,600 This is, although I imagine there are some, or you do 71 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,360 mention some organisations in the book that have shifted 72 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,920 towards this way of running things. 73 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:49,320 But just leaving aside the CEO perspective at the moment, where 74 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:54,040 does that leave project managers in an in an organisation? 75 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,920 Yeah, let me just give a bit of context also on the book, Emma 76 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,920 and I answer your. So one of the main drivers for 77 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,320 me to write this book was trying to find the formula that will 78 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,920 increase the success rate of projects and transformations. 79 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,680 And there has been lots of books around that. 80 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,920 But I finally understood that if we want to increase or the 81 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:24,560 success of our projects, numbers can go from 90% of real mega 82 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:30,400 projects are not delivered on time or on budget to 7060% some 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,440 other. How can we do that? 84 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,360 And, and I realised that if we want to succeed on that, you 85 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,880 need to work on three levels. It's not just that you do your 86 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,360 projects better, that you build capabilities around project, you 87 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,720 integrate hybrid methods, you put some AI, you have to do 88 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,720 that, but you also need to work on the leadership. 89 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:57,080 They are really key players in in terms of launching priorities 90 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,880 in sponsorship and and they mostly don't know how to do 91 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,240 that. And then you have the 92 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,680 organisation. So the hierarchies, the 93 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,040 structures, the culture, which also impacts everything. 94 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,840 So in order to increase the success, you cannot work in one 95 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:18,840 of the elements or or just two. We need to work holistic on the 96 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:21,880 three. And that's how I structure the 97 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,600 book as well. And to your question, it's where 98 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,160 do the project managers fit in this? 99 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,520 I think we have a unique opportunity to be become really 100 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,800 business drivers, business leaders. 101 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,000 Like you mentioned, Emma, during COVID, we stepped up. 102 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,080 We believed in ourselves. We drove companies that look 103 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:49,200 like going to bankrupt into survival and then back into 104 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,080 business. And I think for us, there's an 105 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,880 opportunity to move from that role that many people perceive 106 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:01,560 as pushing dates or pushing the liver balls and tasks and to 107 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,800 something where we really bring value, we shape the 108 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,240 organisation. So not everybody will be fit for 109 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,080 that. But I think there's that 110 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,040 opportunity that we should be taking advantage. 111 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,440 And that's the message I give in the book as well. 112 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,800 We we've never been in this position as we are today to, to, 113 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:27,720 to, to get to a higher level. I just wanted to pick up on one 114 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,080 thing that you talked about there around leadership. 115 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,320 Do you were you talking about leadership in general within 116 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,880 organisations or were you talking about project leaders? 117 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,960 I'm talking about general in in leaders, in general, media 118 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,320 managers, executives, they one of the things that strikes me 119 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:53,320 the most MI is that most senior leaders, executives, they like 120 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,560 to spend most of their time in their comfort zone. 121 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,880 And comfort zone for leaders today is running the business is 122 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,240 their operations. That's what they know, that's 123 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,440 where they have the power. That's how they have 124 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,760 hierarchies, they have their budgets and they play all the 125 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,720 silos. And but this is wrong. 126 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,440 This is maybe good for the past, but this will not take you to 127 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,720 the future. And so where I say the leaders 128 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,800 need to spend more time in their so out so uncomfortable outside 129 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,920 their call, that's transformation work. 130 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,560 That's where there's no hierarchies. 131 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,520 That's where it's more about charisma, leadership, vision and 132 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,400 and there is absolutely a need to force that to happen. 133 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,320 And that means also that we are more comfortable. 134 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,440 That means that we'll have opportunities to take the roles 135 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:49,240 to, to, to, to, to build the future through this more 136 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:54,640 uncomfortable zone where uncertainties is this everyday 137 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,680 is a life of us. So that's what I mean about 138 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,480 leadership. These people very important. 139 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,720 They don't like to spend time on what we do because it's 140 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,080 uncomfortable. So then to ask you more 141 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,840 explicitly, what opportunities does a shift towards a project 142 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,120 economy present to project professionals? 143 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:25,240 But already it's this big recognition that the entire 144 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,880 organisation or the leadership of that organisation needs, 145 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:33,000 needs to have those skills or at least understand project 146 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,000 professionals will use them in a way, in a better way to 147 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,800 integrate them further up the corporate kind of chain. 148 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,120 Do you want to tell me a bit more about that side? 149 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,080 Yeah, I think we have a role, a new role for me when, when I 150 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,640 teach at the corporates, I say to the project, the project 151 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,400 managers who have already certain experience, I say your 152 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,800 role today is not just to deliver projects on time, on 153 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:02,880 budget. First. 154 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,840 The, the, the main reason why we do projects is for benefits, for 155 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,200 outcomes. So is really understand the 156 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,680 benefits and the outcomes and think how can we deliver them 157 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,680 not just on time, on budget, but faster. 158 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,760 And that's how you, you work to engage the senior leaders. 159 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,480 But another very important role I see is that many of these 160 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,120 organisations, I'm not talking about really project driven 161 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,480 organisations like construction and consulting law firms, 162 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,680 talking about the ones that have both operations. 163 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,200 But many people are uncomfortable with change. 164 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:49,480 Many of your colleagues will they go to work for routine 165 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,760 work, they go to work for stability. 166 00:10:53,760 --> 00:11:00,240 They won that 9:00 to 5:00 comfort, not too much shake up. 167 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,880 And these people are seriously at risk. 168 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:08,640 So I think I see my role as also a coach for all these people to 169 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,080 tell them that change is good, that there's very good things 170 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,920 about working in projects where you meet new people, you have 171 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,280 other challenges. So we have a dual roll off 172 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,960 focusing on on on benefits and delivering value, but also 173 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:30,280 bringing the organisation along into this journey for stability 174 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,720 to more fast change and constant transformations, which I think 175 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,800 is exciting. Yeah, I mean, and you're kind of 176 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,840 saying that project professionals, this is their 177 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,000 bread and box are dealing with change and being on top of 178 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,720 things the whole time work and maybe different projects at the 179 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,840 same time, but having having that resilience as well. 180 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:57,240 So, so I, so I think I'm answering my own question when 181 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,840 I, I wanted to ask you, do you think, think this shift away 182 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,800 from operations towards projects is a good thing for project 183 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,000 managers then? I absolutely think it's a, it's 184 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,400 a natural because because this is what organisations are 185 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,880 looking for. And the examples I talk about, 186 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,880 the book goes to the point Higher, for example, this 187 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,440 Chinese company that was struggling completely 188 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,680 transformed how they operate. But in Higher, any project 189 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:30,960 manager or any employee can be an entrepreneur within Higher. 190 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,600 You can come up with a great idea, you can get funding from 191 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,560 the leadership and you execute that project. 192 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:42,680 But then you are the CEO of and the, the, the, the entrepreneur 193 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,120 of of your project that will deliver value for hire as a 194 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,840 whole. So we're, we're removing the 195 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:55,080 very narrow view of project life cycle where the ideas happen 196 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,000 with some other people and the delivery of value happens with 197 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,600 other people. And we just take an idea and, 198 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:07,080 and build it and, and then so we we go more end to end instead of 199 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,720 just very narrow focus on on what we used to see as project 200 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,760 life cycle. This is this this talk around 201 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,120 how organisations are set up around projects and employees 202 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,720 that's been that's been around for a couple of decades now. 203 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,760 It wasn't called this. It was, I can't remember the 204 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,120 name of it, but there's a gay various gay video games 205 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,840 companies who child that, but it's like anti hierarchical just 206 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,120 everyone's in their own. Yeah. 207 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,960 Holocracies. They call it holocracies. 208 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,040 Yeah, holocracies, that's right. Yeah, yeah. 209 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,040 So it there's a natural evolution of holocracy. 210 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,520 Is this holocracy is not what you? 211 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,480 Think no holocracy is completely cows it's it's it's the strife 212 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,160 on cows yeah. So it's, but there's just, I 213 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,560 think, I think one thing that is very clear again back to the 214 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:03,640 point of increasing success of transformation is when I tell 215 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,680 this to some senior leaders, they don't like that. 216 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,680 But in projects, there's no hierarchy. 217 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,200 In programmes transformation, there shouldn't be any 218 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,160 hierarchy. There's maybe 2 levels of 219 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,680 hierarchy, right? You have the senior leaders and 220 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:19,080 the and it's a team that works together to take decisions 221 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,880 together that drives the change. But when you put the 510 levels 222 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,640 of hierarchy, you just slow down. 223 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,840 It's just obvious. It's just you want more people 224 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:30,760 overseeing than actually executing. 225 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:36,920 This is not completely chaos or, or lack of, but just flatten up 226 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,800 completely, right. And and that's that there's 227 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,960 still some governance. I talk of different models of of 228 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:48,200 governance to be more flexible governance, but it's very thin. 229 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,000 It's I'm the project manager. If I need to talk to the CEO of 230 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,960 my company today because I need a decision, I call. 231 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,800 I don't need to ask permission to that person that will ask 232 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,000 permission to the other. And then I can talk maybe to the 233 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,240 CEO in four weeks, no? If the project's economy takes 234 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,920 off, is there a danger that everyone will say, OK, I need to 235 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:16,040 be seen to be a project manager? And what's is quite common is 236 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,040 for people to call themselves project managers when actually 237 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,600 they're not or don't have no professional qualifications. 238 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,120 Or, you know, it's easy for us for someone to call themselves 239 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,520 that. And conversely, there are people 240 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,120 who are project managing who, who have figured it out their 241 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,080 own way and actually is legitimate. 242 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,320 But what I mean, is there a downside? 243 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,240 Won't won't just everyone want to add project managers to their 244 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,520 job role but not really knowing what it is or haven't been 245 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,400 trained in it? I think the, the danger is 246 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,160 there. I think we're not moving. 247 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,240 I think we're moving away from traditional roles too. 248 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,560 So I think we're going to be working on, on teams and things 249 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,200 will be based on skills and, and maybe interests and, and 250 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,760 aspirations. And there will be a coordinator 251 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,680 or a leader, maybe it's called project leader, maybe programme 252 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,720 transformation leader. But I don't think we all need to 253 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,400 be programme leaders. It's like we'll find roles that 254 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,640 we can play within the transformation initiative for a, 255 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,680 a project and then we'll move to another one. 256 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,400 The case of buyer and the new CEO who said we're going to 257 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,360 transform buyer and they're going to be just teams of people 258 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,040 like 5000 teams that work for 90 days together and they they move 259 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,480 to another type of project. So these are a big experiment 260 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,600 I'm following, but doesn't mean that everyone will be called 261 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,880 project leader. I think there will be natural 262 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,160 leaders. There will be some of us who 263 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,000 maybe move to something more specific to what we like on 264 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,600 people, on communication, on stakeholders, but not everybody 265 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,480 will will be leading this type of projects. 266 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,080 Do you think there'll be a greater demand for kind of 267 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,560 professionally qualified project managers? 268 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,520 I completely believe so, Emma, But we do need to adapt. 269 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,200 We cannot. We cannot keep doing projects 270 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,640 the way we did it so far. We need to understand new 271 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,560 things, obviously integrating AI in our tool set and, and daily 272 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,720 activities. And we need to step up as well 273 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,080 into more leadership and value creation and, and understanding 274 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,800 people. So I, I, I don't see, I always 275 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:40,840 say there's one word that is, is more use than AI, which is very 276 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,120 difficult, right? Today in business, it's 277 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:47,160 transformation. And, and for me, that's what I 278 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,720 always call this in terms what I do in companies, I build their 279 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,520 internal transformation muscle, which means the company as a 280 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,120 whole has this capability to transform. 281 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,200 Today will be AI, but maybe in two years there will be 282 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,240 something else. So in so far we've used a lot of 283 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,880 consultants in good sense to do the transformation for you. 284 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,880 But now it's you cannot rely on external resources, you need to 285 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,800 build that. For me, that's the number one 286 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,800 priority for any CEO or board is build that capability to adapt 287 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,520 constantly with pace involving the organisation. 288 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,840 And that's where project leaders can thrive, right? 289 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,440 That's where we can build those capable. 290 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,360 That's what I was saying. We're a bit coaches, ambassadors 291 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,920 to get these skills embedded in the organisation. 292 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,880 Actually, that kind of follows into my next question really 293 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,480 neatly, which is how can project professionals help those outside 294 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,880 of the profession, but within their organisation to better 295 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:04,080 understand what project management is and how you do it? 296 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:09,080 Well, and then a kind of corollary question to that would 297 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,520 be how do you get the two to speak to each other in a way in 298 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,240 a kind of common language? Because that seems to be, you 299 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,640 know, there's this every function has its language and 300 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,400 general management business language is different to project 301 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:25,880 management. Like you say, people, there's a 302 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,120 misconception that, you know, project managers, they just deal 303 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,080 with the data and the Gantt charts, which is so outdated, 304 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,680 but still no doubt a common perception. 305 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:40,440 So what? How should, what can project 306 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,880 professionals do to really, I get I guess shed light on what 307 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,080 it is they do and what it actually means? 308 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,840 I have a, really my favourite definition, Emma, of what we do 309 00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:01,360 is projects are your future. So what do project manager, They 310 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:05,080 build the future, they deliver the future within their 311 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,240 companies. You might do it at minor scale 312 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,720 or big scale. If projects fail, there's no 313 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,800 future. That's so clear. 314 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,160 So I think this this should be inspirational because often I 315 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,840 find that we are a profession that doesn't brag. 316 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,880 We were very humble. We felt very critical with 317 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,840 ourselves. We're tough, very tough with 318 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,840 ourselves. We look at people doing strategy 319 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,360 or operations or business like there, there are Big Brothers 320 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,440 there. But no, I think we need to 321 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,880 completely shift that if we are the ones who deliver the future 322 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,280 and if we fail, the future is going to be dark. 323 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,520 So you're all future builders and, and there's nothing more 324 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,440 beautiful as a job than people who build the future. 325 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:59,920 And, and in terms of alignment is when we learn to speak about 326 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:06,400 our projects and the benefits that they deliver, not about 327 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,280 what the product will do. I'm I'm sure many of you all are 328 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,400 doing a data project or a new platform or a new application or 329 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,200 a reorganisation. Nobody cares about the things we 330 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,840 need to understand always the why, the purpose and when you 331 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,800 start knowing about the why. And often these projects like an 332 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,520 HR system could be just an HR system. 333 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,400 But maybe the system really purpose is to increase the 334 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,280 engagement of employees who feel really bad for the last two 335 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,800 years. And this system will help us to 336 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,400 create a more community feeling and and with that will increase 337 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,760 engagement. So you see how different it 338 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,960 looks and how much engagement you'll get by learning. 339 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,600 And then the benefits, one thing that I think we've done wrong 340 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,240 for many years, that's why benefits has not worked so far 341 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,040 is because many of the things that we do in projects are done 342 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,760 like operations. That means hierarchical top 343 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,920 down. Forget about all what is 344 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,000 hierarchical in projects. Projects are Co creation and you 345 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,280 start Co creating with the benefits. 346 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,960 I'm going to launch a project and I go to you, Emma, who I 347 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,000 need you because you have a team that works in digital marketing 348 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,400 and said, Emma, listen, this project is strategic, but what 349 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,600 is there something that I can help you with this project? 350 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,000 Oh, Antonio, we can increase Net Promoter score. 351 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,920 I think that's a big priority for us. 352 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,320 So I, I start engaging you, not imposing. 353 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,680 Listen, Emma, the system will do all these things. 354 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,760 You don't care how tall and by asking you what do you think 355 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,880 this project will bring to you? And then you say Net Promoter 356 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,560 score is a big thing for us and we need to go from 60 to 90. 357 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,080 Can you help? I say, yeah, I think we'll put 358 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,440 this a priority. And then you will tell me, 359 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,240 Antonio, how can I help you? Do you need people from me? 360 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,560 So we need to stop running projects like operations and 361 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,000 from the benefits, from the scope definition, from the 362 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,960 controlling to more Co cooperation. 363 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,080 And once you start talking benefits, I get attention 364 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,640 because it's not my benefits, it's our benefits. 365 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,560 So that's the other thing, right? 366 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,440 The the future projects are your future. 367 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,120 And then move from talking to the what and the labour boards, 368 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:32,480 which are important, but nobody cares. 369 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,080 Do the benefits that people care? 370 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:38,600 Thank you. There's a lot to take in there. 371 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,480 One of the things that is occurring to me is that if 372 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,720 you're a project professional listening to this and you want 373 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:52,720 to be part of this project economy, how, what kinds of 374 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,680 things should you be doing to make yourself ready for it? 375 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,640 So I'm talking about mindset or the way you approach projects 376 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,200 because one thing that's jumping out at me recently when I speak 377 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,360 to people who've led successful projects, be they large or 378 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:14,280 small, is the level of collaboration that that seems so 379 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,320 important now. So it's the kind of people 380 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:25,760 skills and clarity of purpose and also a greater emphasis on 381 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,520 the exact on, on the benefits, but also has, you know, 382 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,120 measuring them, explaining to them, sticking them around long 383 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,520 enough to to see the benefits. I don't know, there seems to be 384 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,880 a big shift. But if you're if you want to get 385 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,760 ready for this feature that you're describing, what what 386 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,520 should you be thinking about or doing right now as a project 387 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,040 manager? I think mindset is very 388 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,640 important, trusting yourself, being proud of what you do. 389 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:54,200 Think about that being building the future, the future of your 390 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,760 companies in your hands. So feel the pressure as well of 391 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,080 delivering, right. It's really important and the 392 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,440 mindset goes along. Courage. 393 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,840 I always in my book and in general I say most of the 394 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,800 projects that I see, I will go to 90%, maybe 95% of the 395 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,960 projects that we see all over organisations in the UK and the 396 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,600 rest are incremental improvements. 397 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,760 That means that this project is going to increase the efficiency 398 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,120 by 10%. This project is going to reduce 399 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:32,240 cost by 20%. So we again, that operation and 400 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,720 mindset so embedded in projects, why do we do projects that are 401 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,640 just 10% improvements? Why don't we say no, we're not 402 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,800 going to do this project with temper, let's think 403 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,240 exponentially. Let's really transform more 404 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,160 business and project leaders have that power that nobody told 405 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,920 them. But you can say no to a bad 406 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,040 idea. You can say this is bad. 407 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,160 And where is the sustainability part on this project? 408 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,760 Have you thought about go back and redo it, right? 409 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,120 Why should I drive a project that doesn't bring value and 410 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,040 it's not sustainable? If that's one of your priorities 411 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,480 and it doesn't create whatever the priority is for you, why 412 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,880 would you just say, yes, I'll do it? 413 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,880 No, we need to learn to say no, we can do better. 414 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,000 So we have that, but we need to step, step up against our 415 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,120 history. We need to step up and saying, 416 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,560 listen, we can do more. We can do a train that never 417 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,200 stops. We can make a car that drives 418 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,920 alone. We can create a rocket that 419 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,840 doesn't disappear but comes back right and reduce it. 420 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,120 Why should BLM masks the only one thinks about that? 421 00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,200 Why should not be thinking exponentially? 422 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,440 So that's I think something a capability that we need to 423 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,320 develop, that we need to talk to leaders as leaders and step up 424 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,000 and say this and maybe we can do it differently. 425 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,480 Second, maybe not to go too long, Emma, is the people side. 426 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:06,560 Another big gap in the way we run projects is that they're run 427 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,200 by groups of people. And the main reason why projects 428 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,920 succeed is because there's a team behind. 429 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,120 How many times you've seen I've been 25 year plus, where you 430 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,560 prioritising a project to create a team and say forget about the 431 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,960 project, forget about the scope, forget about WS backup. 432 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,040 Let's bring the first week to create a team. 433 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,400 All of you, we've never worked together, but this time we're 434 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,920 going to work together as a team. 435 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,560 All of you are important. You all play a role. 436 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,040 This is how I like to to work together. 437 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,800 I want to know each other. We need to know each other. 438 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,800 I don't care about your role. I want to know who you are Emma 439 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,560 and what you like and how's been your life and building that 440 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,720 trust from the beginning and creating that team is nowhere, 441 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,160 is nowhere. We rush. 442 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,840 We go into things that really don't matter. 443 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,800 They're just superficial. So that can you can have a huge 444 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,800 impact if you stop your project today immediately and spend the 445 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,320 next week building a team. Even if people are part time, 446 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,600 when they come to you, they feel they're in a team, a winning 447 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,920 team. People that care that, that 448 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,560 that's really, I just don't know why we've never focused on that, 449 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,480 right? It's just crazy. 450 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,600 But that will need to be a muscle that people need to work 451 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,080 because if you're saying in a project economy teams come 452 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,960 together for 90 days or whatever and it it's it's going to be 453 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,480 necessary that you'd be working with different people. 454 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:43,320 So to have that ability to get on a long well, understand each 455 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,360 other and to have that team, team cohesion is really 456 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,680 important. I like what you're yeah, and I 457 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,240 like what you're saying around. I think what you're saying is 458 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,400 that you need to think bigger. So project professionals need to 459 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,880 think bigger about well, a appreciate and shouts a bit more 460 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,080 about the work they do because I've never come across such a 461 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,560 humble group of people who are so reluctant to talk about the 462 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:17,400 successes that they bring. Also, it's because your book is 463 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,680 at is completely around project success. 464 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,800 And I mean, we could talk another hour about that, but one 465 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,000 of the things is around is the project worth doing in the 1st 466 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,800 place? Or if you're on the project 467 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,120 continuum, well, when it becomes apparent that maybe this is not 468 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,400 such a good idea, that it's right to stop that project, move 469 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,160 on to the next, and perhaps that is then tied into project 470 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,600 governance. If you're, if your whole 471 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,400 organisation is just a number of projects, you must have constant 472 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,160 vigilance about which, which are worth focusing on and which are 473 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,840 worth abandoning. And then there's no shame in 474 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,720 that. It's that's the right thing to 475 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,520 do. Yeah, that's one of the other 476 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,400 areas I I work on in the book is we should not see stopping 477 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,120 projects as a failure. On the contrary, it should be an 478 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,120 act of courage that is recognised and OK. 479 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,480 Hey boss, we launched this six months ago. 480 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,440 I think the market has shifted. We have other let's let's stop 481 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,440 it or even post it for the next 3-6 months. 482 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,960 Let's shift priority, let's shift the teams they were and 483 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,440 then it creates more capacity, it creates more focus. 484 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:32,200 But today projects, if you close them, finish them, stop them, 485 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,120 it's, it's still seen as a failure. 486 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,680 And that that's part of the culture that I say it has to 487 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,880 change. Project celebration. 488 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,400 I wrote an article in HBRA few months ago. 489 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,080 It's how to stop projects. And it, it, it seems simple, but 490 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,680 it's not. How many of you go by by 491 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,720 subscription to go to the gym, especially in January and and 492 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,480 you never stop that subscription even if you don't go right. 493 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,360 So it's the same for projects at work. 494 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,840 It's just very hard. But building that muscle again, 495 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,520 you know, stop it. Like I, I tried, we, we learned 496 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,680 a lot, but now it's time to shift to something else. 497 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:21,640 And one of the very big message MI want to give is AI will come 498 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,600 and we'll need to stop projects. But I think leaders should not 499 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,360 take the advantage of stopping projects to fire people that 500 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,280 that's like the worst strategy you can have. 501 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,000 One of the approaches that I say is when we stop people, we 502 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,240 guarantee in the next 30 day that everyone in that project 503 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,920 will be replaced somewhere else. So having that safety that the 504 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,920 projects will stop and, and, and, and many should stop, but 505 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,040 we, we keep our people, we, we, we have this safety needs for 506 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,680 that. And that would create such a 507 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,800 positive culture where we focus on what really matters. 508 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,480 That's a really good point. What my final question would be 509 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,200 how big is the gap between where we are, where organisations are 510 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,960 now and where you you see that they could be and and delivering 511 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,600 successful projects within their organisations? 512 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,800 I think it's very big, Emma, and and this is a transformation 513 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:28,160 that has to be LED from the top. And I hope that having HPR 514 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,880 really position the book for CEOs and executives will help 515 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,880 us. I think we have a role to play 516 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,600 when we professional as where we know how to do this type of 517 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:44,720 transformation speaking higher up, but I think we're we big 518 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,720 gap, we're slow, Emma. And what worries me the most is 519 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,080 that in Asia, for example, companies are adapting so 520 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,880 quickly and and they're just so fast and they they don't have 521 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,000 these problems that we make ourselves. 522 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,600 So that's my bigger concern is that companies are changing 523 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,480 very, very fast in Asia and and they're coming and they're 524 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,760 playing globally. So I'm I'm a bit concerned on 525 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,040 that part too. Thank you, Antonio. 526 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,280 Was was there any last points you wanted to raise before we 527 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,640 wrap up? No, I think just for all these 528 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,600 project managers, please be proud of what you're doing. 529 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,680 Really be proud and be the proudest because you're really 530 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:33,560 building the future and and recognise that with your friends 531 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,920 and with your family and it really, if we are not there, the 532 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,400 future will not be looking great. 533 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,400 So just be very, very proud of what we do. 534 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,880 That's that's great words for a January podcast as well when 535 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,840 everyone's thinking about what new Year might bring. 536 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,600 So that's the really positive celebratory night way to end the 537 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,720 podcast. So thank. 538 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,160 Thank you very much, Antonio. That was so interesting to hear 539 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,640 your thoughts. So thanks again. 540 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,480 Always a pleasure. Thank you, Ma. 541 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,159 Thanks again to Antonio for joining us and to you for 542 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,480 listening to the APM podcast. I hope that you've been left 543 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,639 with much food for thought, and remember to get hold of a copy 544 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:19,280 of Powered by Projects, leading your organisation in the 545 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,440 Transformation Age, published by Harvard Business Review Press in 546 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,000 January 2026. Don't forget to look out for 547 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,320 more episodes or to rate and reviews. 548 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,280 Wherever you get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 549 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,440 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 550 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,000 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify and YouTube users, 551 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,920 please do also leave us your comments. 552 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,800 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 553 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,199 for the roject Rofession. For more information on APM, 554 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,360 visit apm.org.uk.