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Hello. 
Welcome to the APM podcast, 

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brought to you by the chartered 
body for the project profession 

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in 2022. 
OPM is celebrating its 50th 

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Anniversary. 
So, throughout the year, the APM

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podcast has been meeting some of
the movers and shakers who have 

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shaped the project profession 
across the past few decades. 

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This episode C's Professor, atom
bomb, Addison a p.m. chief 

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executive and conversation with 
the right honourable. 

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Justine Greening Justine served 
as an MP from 2005 to 2019 

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during her time in politics, she
held positions, including 

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Secretary of State, for 
Education, Minister for women 

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and inequalities and Secretary 
of State for International 

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Development. 
And this podcast Adam and 

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Justine discuss, the definition 
of social Mobility status of 

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apprenticeships and we're 
project management fits into the

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leveling up agenda. 
Justin also shares her 

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experiences as a co-founder of 
the social Mobility pledge 

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Campaign, which encourages 
organizations to be a force for 

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Good by putting social Mobility 
at the heart of their purpose. 

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Okay, welcome to the APM 
podcast. 

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I'm delighted to have dressed in
green ink with me here today. 

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So good morning. 
Justine morning. 

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How are you Adam? 
I'm very well. 

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Thank you. 
Thank you for joining us today 

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and to talk about the very 
important themes of social 

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mobility and project success. 
Two of my favorite topics. 

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I'm really delighted that we 
were able to talk to you about 

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these important areas today and 
areas which I think are both 

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share something in common which 
is I think they're often 

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misunderstood or misrepresented 
out there in the The world. 

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So I'm hoping that one of the 
things we can do today is to is 

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to help people better understand
both these things. 

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So let's start by talking about 
social mobility and I'd really 

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be interested. 
If you can tell us a bit about 

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what social Mobility actually is
and why it's important, it's 

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about breaking the link between 
where you start in life and your

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background and circumstances 
shaping where you end up. 

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So it's about freeing up Talent,
really an hour. 

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Allowing people to kind of 
follow their path. 

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Whatever their potential is, 
irrespective of their background

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and stuff. 
I'm really passionate about 

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social Mobility myself. 
I see myself as as a beneficiary

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of social Mobility, as a young 
person, I came from a fairly 

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disadvantaged background in the 
northwest of England. 

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And I like to think I've done 
okay for myself. 

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And I had lots of opportunities,
if you like not necessarily 

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handouts, but hand up, as I went
through life, and various people

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are different They just help me 
and when I talk to people about 

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that, sometimes they criticized 
the kind of social Mobility 

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element of how I've done and 
they said, well, Adam, you were 

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lucky. 
You were lucky that, you had 

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those opportunities. 
Those people who helped you at 

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that time, and they say, the 
problem with social Mobility is 

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it doesn't help. 
Everybody, only helps those who 

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happen to have those 
opportunities. 

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Would you say that's a fair 
criticism? 

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No. 
And I think in a way it just 

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underlines, that probably, for 
too long, we've got a bit hung 

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up on the semantics of social 
mobility. 

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And I used to have these debates
a little bit in Parliament with 

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people on whether it was just 
about gifted and talented 

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people, getting to the very top 
and the reality is, it's much 

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more about saying this country 
needs to free up its Talent 

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base. 
And yes, getting doing well in 

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life. 
Shouldn't be about getting a 

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look. 
He break. 

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So now I'm talking about 
something that is much more, not

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just a social thing, but an 
economic challenge that we've 

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got to address. 
I mean, often my experience, 

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having been on the other side of
this and and being responsible 

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for recruiting people, is a 
really diverse workforces is 

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really important and actually 
gives you insights that you 

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wouldn't ordinarily have so 
given it an advantage to have a 

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diverse Workforce. 
Why wouldn't employers just do 

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this? 
Anyway, why do they need to be 

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convinced? 
Why do we need social Mobility 

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campaigns? 
Is it some kind of 

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misconception, existing, 
employers mines? 

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I don't know why. 
It doesn't happen anyway. 

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Well, it's a really good point 
and it's it's something that 

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I've thought a lot about. 
I mean, why do we have this as 

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the status quo because it does 
damage our economy? 

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And I think the answer is 
probably for the people who are 

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getting opportunities. 
It's fine. 

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And I also think it's Ali she 
can't see week, so Mobility. 

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So if you go into a boardroom 
and maybe there's any one woman 

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there, it's really obvious that 
there's an issue on gender. 

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Same on ethnicity. 
I think it's just been very 

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hidden. 
I also think it's sort of how 

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things have always been. 
So does that power of inertia? 

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But I do think now and I also 
think maybe in the past you can 

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say economically, it didn't 
matter as much as it does today.

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But if you're in the century 
today where it's all about a 

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knowledge economy, it's all 
about Talent. 

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The technology world is very 
much about creativity and 

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lateral thinking and all of 
that, then it does become really

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really important. 
So this issue of not getting the

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most out of your human capital. 
Infrastructure becomes really 

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really important now and I think
we need to see it alongside 

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physical infrastructure as being
crucial to get right? 

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And and if we did get it right 
and you know, we had the 

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education system working 
perfectly and employers, we're 

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doing the right things with the 
job ever be done. 

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Would we ever kind of get to a 
point where social Mobility is 

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not needed anymore? 
Because actually employers are 

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doing the right things, 
everybody is getting the the 

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breaks in life that they 
deserve. 

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You know, those who work hard 
succeed and so on you get a lot 

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closer towards that. 
There's never probably going to 

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be perfect equality of 
opportunity. 

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Everyone. 
I have a different view about 

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What that really looks like in a
sense in practice. 

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But I think you can get a lot 
further towards improving the 

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education system. 
So gaps, don't open up quite so 

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consistently during young a 
young person's life and I think 

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you can also get employees to 
think differently about where 

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they get their talent from and 
to, and to start measuring, 

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socioeconomic background as 
well. 

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So, I think you can actually get
a very long way and, you know, 

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whether it's that, Or whether 
it's creating different routes 

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into opportunities, for example,
technical education, and 

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apprenticeships. 
I just think there's actually 

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quite a lot of stuff we can get 
on with relatively quickly and 

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easily, that will probably make 
quite a big difference over the 

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longer term in your time is 
education. 

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Secretary obviously had an 
influence over their kind of 

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national system and insight into
the system that other people, 

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you know, would never have. 
But did you feel that school 

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leavers? 
What, Often guided towards say 

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University at the expense of 
apprenticeships and particularly

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now thinking about project 
management apprenticeships, but 

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also the kind of bigger picture.
I think we were in a situation 

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where actually, there hasn't 
really been a good choice for 

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young people. 
So, I went to University and was

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the first person in my family to
do that, but I really wanted to 

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go to university, but I think if
I'd had a slightly different way

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of learning or interest, I I 
don't believe that the 

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vocational education routes open
to people with good enough for 

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one of the things that we really
focused on when I was at the DFE

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was improving, those technical 
education route. 

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So I think you've almost got two
challenges. 

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One is making sure there's a 
choice for young people that's 

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genuine and they're not having 
to somehow compromise on the 

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quality of their education. 
If they want to go down and more

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vocational route, rather than a 
A more academic route. 

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I think the second thing though 
is then making sure they've got 

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the right information to make a 
good decision because actually 

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if you look across different 
socioeconomic backgrounds, there

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are some say siglemic, 
backgrounds, where virtually all

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the young people are going to 
add into, you know, University 

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education. 
So, I think if you're probably 

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one of the most privileged 
backgrounds in in the UK, 

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literally three quarters of Of 
those young people would head to

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University and, you know, 
whether it's that challenge of 

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sequel, it can't possibly suit 
all of those young people or 

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conversely for people growing up
in communities more like mine, 

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where, you know, not many people
really went to University, those

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people not thinking about it 
carefully enough and not 

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thinking about going on to 
higher education, and further 

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education, whether that's 
Technical vocational, I think 

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there's a lot to be done on just
helping young people. 

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Work through those work through 
those choices. 

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So they don't just end up almost
doing the social Norm of what 

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people like them normally do 
sure. 

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And and, and so you talk there 
about whether vocational roots 

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are good enough, I suppose and 
equipment and a genuine 

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alternative. 
Do you think we're there now, or

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do you think apprenticeships are
a genuine alternative? 

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Now, there's no doubt that 
apprenticeships are a genuine 

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alternative in. 
And, and for some young people, 

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there are really small 
alternative to getting a degree.

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Agree. 
Because they'll mean, if you 

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already have a pretty good idea 
of what you want to do, where 

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you want to work, then actually,
you can obviously learn and earn

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at the same time and avoid 
having all of that student debt.

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I think for someone like me, I 
hadn't really worked out. 

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What I wanted to do. 
I was really Keen to study 

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economics. 
Oh, I'd probably still do that 

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all over again. 
I think the key challenge is 

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we're not there yet on 
vocational education, by any 

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means. 
So that Pathway of, for example,

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doing T levels needs, obviously 
huge amounts of work. 

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I think making sure the quality 
and the consistency of that 

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quality across apprenticeships 
is really important and it's 

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probably worth pointing out that
billions of pounds of 

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apprenticeship. 
Levi gets handed back at the 

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moment treasury. 
So I think on the the broader 

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level of getting the most out of
that investment, that could be 

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there to support more 
apprenticeships, we've got a 

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fair way. 
A to go on all of that but at 

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least we're now in a version of 
Britain where I think there's a 

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general acceptance that 
vocational and Technical 

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education has to really improve 
and I don't expect that 

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political debate to go away but 
I think it's a bit like The 

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Wider social Mobility debate. 
It's much more about how you do 

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it rather than whether you do 
it. 

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And I think that in itself has 
been a big step forward for us 

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all. 
Okay. 

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Thank you. 
Now, peep PWC did a bit of 

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research for as a couple Years 
ago, Justine and it was looking 

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at, kind of the size of the 
project profession, and the 

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value that it adds the economy 
and it came up with a figure of 

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150 billion, gross value added. 
So it's obviously an enormous 

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contributor to the economy. 
And therefore, in my mind, it 

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must have an important role to 
play around social mobility. 

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And you know what? 
We hear from government all the 

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time about leveling up so I 
suppose I'm interested to hear 

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from you. 
What part should project and the

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project profession play in both 
of those areas. 

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And And also, what is that 
connection between social 

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mobility and leveling up? 
Are they the same thing that are

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they different things. 
So, on the first thing, I think 

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it's a really interesting 
question because what's coming 

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out of all of the work I've been
doing both while stores at the 

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DFE and since more overtly 
working with businesses on 

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driving leveling up is that 
fundamentally literally 

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managing? 
That project is probably one of 

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the biggest challenges because 
it's complex. 

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And so actually, In many 
respects, delivering it is all 

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about project management. 
And being able to stay on track,

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mobilize people in the same 
direction have things done, when

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they need to be done. 
There's a lot of it, that is, 

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there's a lot of it is about 
policy. 

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And if you like that philosophy,
but there's a massive part of 

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this that is just very, very 
practical delivery on the 

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ground. 
And we've got what seems to be 

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were talking on the morning that
we're about to see who's going 

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to win the leadership of the 
conservative party, because It's

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prime minister but you know 
let's trust is talked about 

230
00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:57,100
delivery delivery delivery and 
for me that's where project 

231
00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:00,200
management comes into this. 
And certainly during my time in 

232
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,800
government, I felt that often 
the Civil Service put a huge 

233
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,100
store on policy development, but
actually delivery and project 

234
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:15,000
management was not seen quite in
the same light and I think it 

235
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,600
needs to be if we're going to 
deliver social mobility, and 

236
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,300
then your question about, About 
social mobility and leveling up.

237
00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:25,500
Well, I mean, that's what I was 
talking about on semantics 

238
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:31,300
really, when we were using, 
leveling up at the DFE in a 

239
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:35,300
sense. 
I'd come up with that phrase for

240
00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:37,800
us because I felt people at the 
time didn't really know what a 

241
00:13:37,808 --> 00:13:42,300
social Mobility meant and it 
felt a bit think tanky. 

242
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,100
And so although I was very, very
familiar with it. 

243
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:50,000
And within academic circles that
was a familiarity, I wanted to 

244
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,300
use a phrase that people could 
instinctively have a sense of 

245
00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:55,700
what it would mean for them. 
And I think they did under 

246
00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:58,200
themes. 
We seen that, they have got an 

247
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,700
instinctive sense, probably of 
what leveling up means, but 

248
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:05,900
whether you Social Mobility 
leveling up equality of 

249
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,300
opportunity, it is all the same 
thing. 

250
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:11,500
It's about having a Level 
Playing Field when it comes to 

251
00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:15,000
opportunity and what you need to
do to make sure that happens. 

252
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,300
Okay? 
So it was really interesting 

253
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,600
that because you've delved into 
the area of project delivery 

254
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:22,300
within the kind of government 
machine. 

255
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,000
If you like, do you think 
politicians and civil servants 

256
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,900
know enough about the project 
profession and the value it can 

257
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:31,500
add to their careers, not even 
remotely enough? 

258
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,800
No, it's Social, because you've 
got to bear in mind for our 

259
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,000
democratic system. 
You know, it worked by having 

260
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,400
people elected and they are, as 
it were lay people, they 

261
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,600
probably got a special ISM in 
some kind of very they worked in

262
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,400
before Parliament, but then 
they're put into running 

263
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,400
departments and so, you know, 
you can end up with a teacher 

264
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:59,100
running the face, you can end up
with an accountant running the 

265
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:06,300
DFE, that's me but actually You 
know, often the challenges, you 

266
00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:08,100
are literally running those 
departments. 

267
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:11,600
And yet I was lucky in the sense
that I had worked in some bigger

268
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:14,400
larger organizations as a 
finance person. 

269
00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:17,400
I guess if you're in finance or 
project management you've 

270
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,100
probably relatively numerator 
and you know what you're looking

271
00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:25,000
for in terms of how to check if 
things are on track and what 

272
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,500
management information you'd 
need. 

273
00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,300
And I think there's a bit of a 
gap there. 

274
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,300
Definitely, for politicians on 
the not. 

275
00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:37,000
Some bolts of their own skill 
set in order to be successful. 

276
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,200
And then, I think what I was 
saying earlier was I guess 

277
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,100
within the Civil Service, the 
the sort of sexy part of civil 

278
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:47,700
service has been all the policy 
development when actually 

279
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,400
increasingly it really needs to 
shift to be much more who's 

280
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,000
great at delivering projects on 
the ground successfully because 

281
00:15:56,700 --> 00:15:58,900
there's no point having the best
policy in the world. 

282
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:01,700
If you can't deliver it, then it
won't come to anything. 

283
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,400
Well, quite and And I think it's
really good now that, you know, 

284
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,700
we have the infrastructure and 
projects Authority, they're 

285
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:10,300
obviously I think a real 
Catalyst actually, I think 

286
00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:13,300
they've been very successful in 
Shifting the, the dial on some 

287
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:15,800
of the area's you've just talked
about, but as always with any 

288
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,700
kind of big system, there will 
be leaders and followers. 

289
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:20,100
And my senses. 
There are some government 

290
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,900
departments who are Miles Ahead 
of the curve here and really 

291
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,100
flying the flag for project 
delivery and policy delivery I 

292
00:16:27,108 --> 00:16:28,700
suppose. 
Yeah. 

293
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:30,100
I think that's, I think that's 
right. 

294
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:33,300
It's interesting because it's 
always tough innocence. 

295
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:37,500
Getting that project evaluation 
and it's plugging up risks and 

296
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:41,000
challenges because obviously, 
that means more work needs to be

297
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,900
done in a very practical way but
at the same time it's absolutely

298
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,300
valuable. 
If you're if you're a sexy state

299
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:51,500
for flagging up to you where you
need to focus your time, I mean 

300
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:53,600
if you're going to be successful
you don't want to be focusing on

301
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,100
things that are all going 
brilliantly. 

302
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,200
You need a system that focuses 
you in on things promptly when 

303
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,500
they're going off-track 
arguably. 

304
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:03,500
Before they've gone. 
Wrong. 

305
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:08,900
And that's what that project 
delivery were really focused on.

306
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:13,300
I think one area where it could 
do much, much more is probably 

307
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:16,500
education. 
So, I think the risk of all of 

308
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:21,099
that is also that it's done, but
it's kind of done separate in a 

309
00:17:21,099 --> 00:17:26,400
way to the politics, may be, it 
has to be, but if you could get 

310
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,000
that feedback loop working a bit
more from an education and 

311
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,900
development perspective, I think
for ministers, you know, that 

312
00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:36,600
would probably be A really smart
thing to do that would make it 

313
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,600
even more. 
Valuable sure. 

314
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:41,600
We've got some, a p.m. members, 
of course, who will be in some 

315
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,600
of those departments, which are 
a bit behind the curve, if you 

316
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,200
like, but they're really 
passionate and they want to do a

317
00:17:47,208 --> 00:17:51,600
good job, but they're perhaps it
in a fighting against the tide 

318
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,700
in the system. 
What advice would you give to 

319
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:56,800
them in terms of how they could 
help to shift the dial within 

320
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,700
their own Department? 
I think, I think it's having the

321
00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:04,200
consistent approach across 
departments on On project 

322
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,400
development and delivery and, 
and speaking with one voice. 

323
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:13,300
So, for example, I think the 
government Finance organization 

324
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,800
across government, had 
increasingly, learn to work, 

325
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,600
collectively and did work. 
Collectively on what good look 

326
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,800
like, what? 
Good process look like, how to 

327
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,800
develop business cases. 
And, you know, it might all 

328
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,800
sound a bit Bonkers. 
You know, of course, you'd 

329
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,300
expect government and civil 
service departments, to develop 

330
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:35,000
strong business cases. 
That isn't always the case. 

331
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:38,900
And as you said, Adams, some 
departments are better than 

332
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:40,300
others. 
I would actually say the best is

333
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:45,000
best business cases I had were, 
when I was at the department for

334
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,400
International Development, maybe
because there was so much 

335
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,500
scrutiny on every single penny 
of spend actually, that had led 

336
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,300
to the department. 
Really kicking the tires on 

337
00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:00,100
absolutely everything before it 
was ever signed off by contrast 

338
00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:05,900
when I went into education. 
You know, much less business 

339
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:08,900
case development per se. 
But a real need for it. 

340
00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,800
Because if you're going to 
compete, for example, with the 

341
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,000
department for transport on 
investment saying, pupil 

342
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,500
referral units and you want that
investment and you're making the

343
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:22,900
case, it should go into that 
rather than fixing more 

344
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,100
potholes. 
Then you do need a business case

345
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,400
approach, that's really bolted 
down and it's what I always 

346
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,400
expected to see as a finance 
person. 

347
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,200
I mean if you don't have that 
business case and this is what 

348
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,000
Really didn't in differed, you 
haven't really ever got that 

349
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,200
parameter that that kind of game
plan against which to then 

350
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,800
compare progress and you know 
it's absolutely crucial. 

351
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,000
If you're going to have strong 
project management that the 

352
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,900
project itself is obviously 
suspect up. 

353
00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:53,000
Well at the very, very 
beginning. 

354
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,200
Absolutely. 
And of course, people and 

355
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,100
personalities. 
You can't take them away from 

356
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:58,800
projects. 
In fact, I think there's a lot 

357
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,300
of value but I can also insert 
some challenges as well. 

358
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:03,600
One of the things. 
Zai. 

359
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,200
See a lot and probably the 
general public. 

360
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,700
See a lot is what we might think
of as pet projects, particularly

361
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:10,800
from ministers, where they come 
in and they've got particular 

362
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,400
things that they want to achieve
it. 

363
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,800
I mean, is there a challenge in 
government of trying to secure 

364
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,400
backing for the for the right 
projects rather than the pet 

365
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,900
projects if you like yes. 
And and that comes down to just 

366
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:26,000
good evidence and consistent 
processes. 

367
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:32,900
So the challenge is probably 
also, the because that 

368
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:37,500
investment process is so driven 
by treasury, you end up with, 

369
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:41,200
you know, some moments in the 
year when our Chancellor might 

370
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,900
want, you know, an extra 
announcement on maths or 

371
00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:47,300
something because that's what 
they want to do. 

372
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:51,100
And they might have a particular
amount of money to be able to 

373
00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:54,500
invest in maths. 
And so your work, the danger is 

374
00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:57,500
you end up with a strategy where
you work Looking back from that 

375
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,200
rather than in that case saying,
well what are we trying to 

376
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,300
accomplish on closing gaps and 
maths. 

377
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:05,600
How big is that Gap? 
What does that investment need? 

378
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,600
And then that's the strategy. 
So you end up with sometimes 

379
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:17,000
back to front processes in a way
that that really isn't helpful 

380
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,300
and then of course as you say 
Adam, you know people do get 

381
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:23,400
very wedded to their pet 
project, sometimes they can be 

382
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,600
extremely large pet project and 
And the risk is that means you 

383
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,500
don't look at it, clear-sighted 
lie. 

384
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,100
Luckily. 
In the way that the regular 

385
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,700
rotation and ministers across 
briefs me, there's always 

386
00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,700
somebody fresh coming in to look
at projects. 

387
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:45,300
They be too often but there is a
you know you've got to just be 

388
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:47,700
conscious of the risk and then 
and then try and make sure it 

389
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,600
doesn't dominate. 
You thinking I always felt good 

390
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:52,900
coming in with a new pet 
project. 

391
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:54,700
Hopefully this is well I've ever
done. 

392
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,200
The Civil Civil Service have an 
important role to play here. 

393
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,100
I think in driving the 
consistency. 

394
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,200
But anyway, look, we've talked 
about social mobility and I'd 

395
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,100
like to talk about the social 
Mobility pledge because this is 

396
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:08,800
something. 
I know you've given your 

397
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,200
personal backing to and you're 
really passionate about and I'll

398
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,900
be employers listening to this 
leaders of organizations and 

399
00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:18,000
corporates that we work with 
listening to this. 

400
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:20,400
You won't know a lot about, 
maybe the social Mobility 

401
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,600
pledge, maybe some of them 
involved, but I wonder if you 

402
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,900
could tell us a bit about what 
it is, why you decided to get 

403
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,600
involved? 
So, what you would say to those 

404
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,300
corporates, who are thinking 
about getting more involved with

405
00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:36,900
making the pledge, so the social
Mobility pledge was was a big 

406
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:42,800
push that I launched after I 
left government, I felt that 

407
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:47,500
there wasn't enough focus on the
role that businesses can play in

408
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,100
connecting people up with 
opportunity. 

409
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:52,600
I think it's pretty obvious to 
me because that was my career, 

410
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:57,600
it had been in the private 
sector but I Really felt that we

411
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,800
needed to drive more businesses 
to think more strategically 

412
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,200
about the impact their many, 
many opportunities can make. 

413
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,400
So that was the social Mobility 
pledge, and it was asking them 

414
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,800
to get into schools to talk 
about careers because I think, 

415
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:16,100
if you don't know about 
opportunities, it's very hard to

416
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,200
aim for them. 
I was asking them to open up 

417
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,200
their doors, particularly on 
things like work experience, 

418
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,200
because I think you might be 
interested in something, but if 

419
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,600
you can't try it out, Out. 
Then again it's really hard to 

420
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,400
make good decisions. 
And also the reality is Adam 

421
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,900
that most people or many, many 
work experience opportunities 

422
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,400
are organized by brilliant 
parents for their kids, but if 

423
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,000
you're going to crack social 
Mobility, then you've got to 

424
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,100
have a much more consistent 
approach and that means having 

425
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:54,300
more work experience on offer. 
So that was the second part and 

426
00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:57,000
doing apprenticeships as well. 
And then the third part was 

427
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,300
Recruitment and it was saying 
having hopefully inspired young 

428
00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:03,300
people on careers that they 
might have with your company. 

429
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:06,500
Having given them the chance to 
walk through the door ideally 

430
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:10,000
and really roll the sleeves up 
and experience what that looks 

431
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,600
like. 
Then you want to make sure that 

432
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,900
that step into your company 
doesn't have inadvertent 

433
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:18,700
barriers. 
That means your screening out 

434
00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:21,700
people before they've even had 
the chance to shine. 

435
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:25,600
So we've got on with all of that
and at the core of it is this 

436
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,600
group of Really Innovative 
employers that we've called the 

437
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,300
purpose Coalition. 
And these are the ones that did 

438
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,400
all of that. 
And then basically were on the 

439
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,100
phone saying, right? 
What's next? 

440
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,500
And there was so much Innovation
that came out of all the social 

441
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:42,700
Mobility pledge work, there's 
about 700 plus organizations 

442
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:45,200
part of it. 
Now that we just really wanted 

443
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,300
to find a way to share all of 
that. 

444
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,700
So rather than lots of 
businesses, Reinventing the 

445
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:56,200
wheel on how to be more open and
diverse individually we thought 

446
00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:58,600
Thought the best thing would be 
to bring them together and 

447
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,900
that's the that's the purpose 
Coalition, but actually it's 

448
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:05,000
ended up not just being 
companies in the private sector.

449
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,200
We've Ended up with universities
who are part of it NHS. 

450
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,000
Trusts we've got councils, who 
are part of it. 

451
00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:16,500
So, actually, it's become a 
really fantastic ecosystem of 

452
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:21,400
very different Employers in a 
way all talking about what 

453
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,500
they're doing on social mobility
and sharing their ideas. 

454
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,100
That sounds fantastic. 
And I know that it's something. 

455
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,100
That's a p.m. is looking harder 
to make sure we can make the 

456
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:33,800
pledge ourselves. 
And I would definitely encourage

457
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,600
anybody listening to this to, to
have a look at that. 

458
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,200
Is there a, is there a website 
that people should go to 

459
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,100
traveler? 
Yeah, if you go on social 

460
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:46,200
Mobility pledge dot org, or if 
you go on purpose, Dash 

461
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,600
Coalition.com, then you can find
out all about it. 

462
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,800
And, of course, I think, right 
now as a country was sort of 

463
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,400
head This cost of living 
Challenge and in a sense, it's 

464
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,300
the flip side of weak social 
Mobility. 

465
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:01,700
The people going to be on the 
front line of that cost of 

466
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:03,500
living challenge at the people 
for whom. 

467
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:07,600
Almost certainly getting 
opportunities, has been a lot 

468
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,400
harder for lots of different 
reasons. 

469
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,700
So, I genuinely think that 
employers can play a massive 

470
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:20,800
role on, not just helping steer 
their their own employees, their

471
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,700
customers, their communities, 
through the cost of living 

472
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:26,100
challenge. 
I also think Think if they're 

473
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:30,600
willing to say, right, let's 
look at our opportunities from a

474
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,000
socio-economic perspective, I 
think they can have a huge 

475
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,200
impact on longer-term. 
Social mobility, and really 

476
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,700
breaking that cycle once and for
all excellent. 

477
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,200
And it's really what you were 
saying about work experience and

478
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,700
parents. 
My parents were Foster carers 

479
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,200
and they arranged for me to 
because I want to be an 

480
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,700
accountant. 
Their range from me to do my 

481
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:53,200
work experience at Liverpool 
Social Services finance 

482
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,000
department at the financial 
year. 

483
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:56,800
Our end. 
It was an experience. 

484
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,500
Definitely. 
I will not forget, but that 

485
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:03,300
probably for another time and I 
just have one final question. 

486
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:09,400
If, if I'm a Justine and that's 
about about equality and 

487
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,700
diversity, and particularly 
thinking about women who are 

488
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:15,000
considering a career in 
projects. 

489
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,900
And the reason I'm going to want
to ask about this, is that the 

490
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:22,600
project profession traditionally
has been seen as associated with

491
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,900
construction infrastructure 
Telecom. 

492
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,500
Um's think, probably unfairly 
seen as associated with those 

493
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:29,100
professions because I think it's
pan sector. 

494
00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:31,900
It's genuinely every single 
sector. 

495
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,100
But clearly, that means, the 
starting point means it is 

496
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,400
disproportionately 
male-dominated as a profession, 

497
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,200
and certainly a p.m. we want to 
do any everything we can to help

498
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,200
address that. 
So, I'm just interested in your 

499
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,000
view on what more you think. 
A p.m. can do other, 

500
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,000
professional bodies can do, but 
also government itself with the 

501
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,900
power that it's got an 
influence, their to God. 

502
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,700
So I think it's a really 
important question. 

503
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,200
And what's been quite 
interesting. 

504
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,000
Doing all the social Mobility 
work is that often the leaders 

505
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,900
that I've come across, who will 
probably running the most 

506
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:10,200
Innovative companies. 
There probably is an over 

507
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,600
representation of women. 
Compared to what you see, more 

508
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,200
widely say across the ftse, 100,
Etc. 

509
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,200
So I do think there's there's 
something around the skill set 

510
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,900
required for outstanding project
management. 

511
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:29,600
Whatever sector that in 
probably, absolutely is one that

512
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,700
should be opened both genders 
obviously. 

513
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:36,000
And how you shift it? 
I think is a combination. 

514
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,900
It's around. 
Definitely enabling everyone to 

515
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:45,600
find out what project management
really means and really entails.

516
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,900
And if you like the the broad, 
Spectrum of sectors. 

517
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:53,800
You can do it in and I think the
second is Role Models, 

518
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,900
definitely, and I think the 
third is then, you know, 

519
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:02,100
companies, really perhaps 
tilting where they put their 

520
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:05,900
effort on Recruitment and all of
that to really bear in mind. 

521
00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:09,100
They absolutely want to make 
sure they they reach out to 

522
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:10,900
women. 
It's not about as it were 

523
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:14,100
positive discrimination. 
Particularly it's really around 

524
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:19,900
saying actually You know, mixed 
teams of people, we know take 

525
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:22,500
better decisions and that is on 
every single level. 

526
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:28,000
So the better, the mix, you 
know, the not only better 

527
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,200
retention, better decisions 
better Recruitment and that 

528
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,000
absolutely includes women. 
So I think that there's a link 

529
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,800
between being strong, all social
mobility and socio-economic 

530
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,100
background and diverse on that 
and being an organization that 

531
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:46,200
can pull that through and these 
other areas of diversity, See 

532
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,900
that people are already working 
on. 

533
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:51,200
I think they all come together 
and I think you can learn across

534
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,300
all of them. 
So it'll be interesting whether 

535
00:29:55,300 --> 00:30:01,200
that's proven in the future. 
But my gut instinct is, is they 

536
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,600
are all inextricably linked. 
But the gender piece is really, 

537
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,300
really important and especially 
at the moment, you know, you see

538
00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:11,300
some sectors, really finding it 
hard to recruit purely because 

539
00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:13,800
they've been male-dominated and 
if you're any fishing in half 

540
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,700
the talent pool, then, yeah. 
You're Hocking have a problem, 

541
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,100
winning the war for talent. 
So all these things probably 

542
00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:24,000
have never mattered more than 
they do now. 

543
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,200
I couldn't agree more trusting. 
Well, thank you very much for 

544
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,400
coming on today p.m. podcast. 
I really appreciated that and I 

545
00:30:31,408 --> 00:30:36,100
think I'll listen to really 
going to benefit from from from 

546
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:39,600
the wisdom that you shared and I
hope they will all be encouraged

547
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,800
to sign up to the social 
Mobility pledge. 

548
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,100
Certainly, as I say p.m., we'll 
be looking at that. 

549
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,900
My sense is that the project 
profession has a really 

550
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:50,000
important role to play in Social
Mobility, but actually, I think 

551
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,200
what we're hearing today as 
well. 

552
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,700
Is that social Mobility can add 
huge value to a Active project 

553
00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:58,200
delivery as well. 
So I think it's a it's a win-win

554
00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:00,500
so Justine. 
Thank you very much. 

555
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:03,300
Thanks, Adam. 
And good luck with all of all of

556
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:06,100
the work, I completely agree. 
It's crucial. 

557
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:08,800
If we're going to crack social 
Mobility, you have to improve 

558
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:15,200
project management. 
Thanks to Justin for taking time

559
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,300
out to join Adam in conversation
and to you for listening to this

560
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:20,100
podcast. 
Don't forget that. 

561
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:23,400
You can find out more about the 
social Mobility pledge at Social

562
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,800
Mobility pledged org. 
If you have any comments 

563
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,800
feedback or suggestions contact 
us at a p.m. podcast at think 

564
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,500
publishing .co.uk, this podcast 
has been brought to you by APM 

565
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,700
the childhood body for the 
project profession. 

566
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,700
For more information visit to a 
p.m. dot-org but UK