1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,720 Hello and welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The 2 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,000 Chartered Body for the Project Profession here at the APM 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,840 Podcast. It's become something of an 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,400 annual tradition to finish the year with an episode that 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,200 compiles some of our highlights of the past 12 months. 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,840 In this episode we're continuing that tradition with a look back 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,840 at our favourite moments from the podcast in 2023. 8 00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:33,970 It's been another action-packed year in which we've welcomed 9 00:00:33,970 --> 00:00:36,290 guests from across the international project management 10 00:00:36,290 --> 00:00:39,370 community. We kicked off 2023 with an 11 00:00:39,370 --> 00:00:43,290 episode on Bringing Empathy into the workplace, and since then 12 00:00:43,290 --> 00:00:45,890 we've covered topics ranging from the rise of artificial 13 00:00:45,890 --> 00:00:49,250 intelligence to the can do mindset of Icelandic project 14 00:00:49,250 --> 00:00:51,670 managers. But there have been a few 15 00:00:51,670 --> 00:00:54,070 episodes that really stood out to us, and which performed 16 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:55,790 particularly well with listeners. 17 00:00:56,990 --> 00:01:00,030 Over the next 25 minutes, we'll share our top five lessons from 18 00:01:00,030 --> 00:01:03,470 the year in the form of short extracts from these episodes. 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,400 So listen on to hear regular podcast host Emma Devita, editor 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,560 of Project Journal, interviewing experts on everything from 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,200 supporting introverts at work to why risks aren't necessarily 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:26,340 always bad. Professor Bent Flubia is a world 23 00:01:26,340 --> 00:01:30,220 leading expert on mega projects. In March, he made his second 24 00:01:30,220 --> 00:01:33,980 appearance on the APM podcast in an episode called How Big Things 25 00:01:33,980 --> 00:01:36,860 Get Done, which is also the title of a book he published 26 00:01:36,860 --> 00:01:39,780 this year exploring the surprising factors behind every 27 00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:43,350 successful project. Here he is talking to Emma about 28 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:46,350 the importance of thinking slow and acting fast. 29 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:51,230 One of the messages that really stuck with me is this the 30 00:01:51,230 --> 00:01:54,350 central idea of think slow, act fast. 31 00:01:54,830 --> 00:01:57,750 Could you explain to listeners what this actually means? 32 00:01:58,270 --> 00:02:01,110 Some people would rebel against things slow because they think 33 00:02:01,110 --> 00:02:05,270 it means take a long time, and it doesn't necessarily mean 34 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:06,750 that. It means that you need to slow 35 00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:10,310 down your thinking in accordance with the findings in behavioural 36 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:13,110 economics. So you know Daniel Kahneman's 37 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:15,630 book called Thinking Fast and Slow. 38 00:02:15,790 --> 00:02:19,390 It's about you have these two ways of thinking and one is our 39 00:02:19,390 --> 00:02:23,990 spontaneous, uh, way that we use as a fall back position, which 40 00:02:23,990 --> 00:02:28,390 is the the fast way. So we think fast and that gets 41 00:02:28,390 --> 00:02:31,150 us into a lot of trouble. So there's probably a good 42 00:02:31,150 --> 00:02:34,350 reason in evolutionary terms that we have this ability to 43 00:02:34,350 --> 00:02:39,110 think really fast, you know, but some things are not suited for 44 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:41,710 that. And I would say that a big 45 00:02:41,710 --> 00:02:44,310 project is the kind of thing that is not suited for fast 46 00:02:44,310 --> 00:02:46,670 thinking, that you actually need to carefully consider what 47 00:02:46,670 --> 00:02:49,430 you're doing because the fact that it's big means that it has 48 00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:52,590 big consequences. And we've studied products very 49 00:02:52,590 --> 00:02:55,470 carefully and many people actually think the bigger the 50 00:02:55,470 --> 00:02:58,910 project you do, the more risky and difficult it is. 51 00:02:58,910 --> 00:03:01,830 And we find that's actually not, that's not the main problem. 52 00:03:01,870 --> 00:03:04,550 There's a bit of truth to that, but not much actually. 53 00:03:05,030 --> 00:03:09,710 The main thing is the longer it takes, the more risky it is and 54 00:03:09,710 --> 00:03:12,150 the higher risk of going terribly wrong. 55 00:03:12,390 --> 00:03:15,550 So it's actually time that is the killer for projects, not 56 00:03:15,550 --> 00:03:18,430 size. So that's why we say egg fest. 57 00:03:18,430 --> 00:03:22,110 So by adding fast you can actually reduce your risks 58 00:03:22,110 --> 00:03:24,750 enormously, especially you have been thinking slow first. 59 00:03:24,750 --> 00:03:28,350 So that's why we say the rhythm of success in projects is think 60 00:03:28,350 --> 00:03:32,830 slow, act fast. Why does thinking slow and 61 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:37,630 acting fast not usually happen? Because we are programmed to not 62 00:03:37,630 --> 00:03:40,870 do this. We are hardwired from nature for 63 00:03:40,870 --> 00:03:44,790 whatever reason, probably very good revolutionary reasons. 64 00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:48,710 We have something called availability bias, that whatever 65 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:53,230 pops into our brain 1st and makes itself available as a 66 00:03:53,230 --> 00:03:55,430 thought, and this could be a thought about a project or an 67 00:03:55,430 --> 00:03:59,470 idea for the project. We tend to take onto that and 68 00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:01,470 then disregard all sorts of other things. 69 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:04,230 We actually kind of lose perspective because we already 70 00:04:04,230 --> 00:04:06,750 have a perspective, namely the first thought that came into our 71 00:04:06,750 --> 00:04:08,960 mind. This is very well documented 72 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,040 again in behavioural science and behavioural economics that we 73 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,840 have this and this is something to watch out for. 74 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,519 And that's why we think first we just jump to the first thing, 75 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:20,670 then we assume that this is all there is. 76 00:04:21,310 --> 00:04:24,310 That's an extremely strong cognitive bias we have. 77 00:04:24,350 --> 00:04:27,790 So that's what's happening in projects is that we quickly 78 00:04:27,790 --> 00:04:31,950 latch onto some idea, maybe even a specific technology that we're 79 00:04:31,950 --> 00:04:34,830 going to use for this project. And then that's all we see. 80 00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:37,990 What we see is all there is and we run with that. 81 00:04:38,110 --> 00:04:41,950 Instead of stepping back and saying, OK, now I have one idea. 82 00:04:42,590 --> 00:04:44,790 Now let me start to think about some other ideas. 83 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:47,950 And we give very clear guidance in the book and and and and take 84 00:04:47,950 --> 00:04:51,990 the reader's hand and walk the reader through processes that 85 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:54,910 you can use to step back and think more systematically about 86 00:04:54,910 --> 00:04:57,470 what are the alternatives here, What are the many other ways 87 00:04:57,470 --> 00:05:00,510 that we could do this? And then decide which of these 88 00:05:00,510 --> 00:05:06,150 ways are you going to use? One of our main means is to to 89 00:05:06,150 --> 00:05:08,990 ask why. We encourage anybody who's doing 90 00:05:08,990 --> 00:05:13,950 a project to 1st sit down and ask themselves or whoever is 91 00:05:13,950 --> 00:05:16,990 doing this project, why are you doing the project? 92 00:05:17,470 --> 00:05:19,590 Why? And you need to have a very good 93 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:22,830 answer to that question before you start, so you actually know 94 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,600 precisely and very well thought out what the reasons are that 95 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,120 you are doing the project. Then after you know that you can 96 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,510 start thinking backwards from that, that's really the end 97 00:05:32,510 --> 00:05:35,030 product you want to end up with. Then you work backwards through 98 00:05:35,030 --> 00:05:38,550 the Cans diagram to the left side of the diagram. 99 00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:41,590 And then you start thinking about how do I deliver the why 100 00:05:42,030 --> 00:05:43,950 and what's the best way to do that. 101 00:05:43,950 --> 00:05:48,510 That's a way to avoid falling into this trap of committing to 102 00:05:48,510 --> 00:05:50,710 a bad idea up front, which is very common. 103 00:05:50,710 --> 00:05:53,830 And if you do that, then you get the opposite of thinking slow, 104 00:05:53,830 --> 00:05:56,630 acting fast. You get think fast, act slow 105 00:05:56,830 --> 00:05:58,630 because you have. If you haven't thought out what 106 00:05:58,630 --> 00:06:02,110 you are going to do, then all sorts of problems are going to 107 00:06:02,110 --> 00:06:04,910 pop up when you can least afford it and when it's really going to 108 00:06:04,910 --> 00:06:07,470 slow you down, which is in the delivery phase. 109 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:12,130 For our second lesson learned of the year, we turn to the topic 110 00:06:12,130 --> 00:06:15,790 of inclusivity. One less explored theme is how 111 00:06:15,790 --> 00:06:18,590 to make workplaces welcoming to introverts as well as 112 00:06:18,590 --> 00:06:21,590 extroverts. There is a misconception that 113 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:25,070 project and programme managers are always extroverts, happy to 114 00:06:25,070 --> 00:06:27,910 speak up and assert themselves in meetings and comfortable 115 00:06:27,910 --> 00:06:31,310 presenting to large groups. The reality, however, is that 116 00:06:31,310 --> 00:06:33,270 there are many introverts working in the project 117 00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:36,030 profession who struggle with these preconceptions and have 118 00:06:36,030 --> 00:06:38,790 different, quieter methods of getting the job done. 119 00:06:39,550 --> 00:06:42,150 Emma spoke to a panel of introverts in May to find out 120 00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:45,270 more. What needs to change about the 121 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:49,630 project profession and the way project teams work in order to 122 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:57,910 allow introverts to thrive? Because our preference is to 123 00:06:57,910 --> 00:07:02,600 engage people in smaller groups or 1:00 to 1:00, that creates a 124 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,320 really strong foundation for building trust with stakeholders 125 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,440 because trust is built between individuals. 126 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,040 And I think we are very good at that naturally of kind of 127 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,000 creating that, that relationship, that more more 128 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,400 intimate relationship with stakeholders, with clients, 129 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,110 customers and so on. But I also think that if you're 130 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:29,670 always that person who leads from the front, you might not 131 00:07:29,910 --> 00:07:32,230 always be aware of what happens behind you. 132 00:07:33,230 --> 00:07:36,870 And you know, if you're kind of the person that doesn't need to 133 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:40,870 lead from default and you, you maybe have to kind of 134 00:07:41,070 --> 00:07:45,030 observation skills to pick up certain things that others may 135 00:07:45,030 --> 00:07:47,350 not. So you know, I think you know, 136 00:07:47,990 --> 00:07:52,390 we observe and see things, understand and kind of digest 137 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:54,910 dynamics, understand the dynamics and then can kind of 138 00:07:55,670 --> 00:08:01,150 adapt ourselves, teams and others to to, you know, to take 139 00:08:01,150 --> 00:08:05,430 advantage of those dynamics. What needs to change to allow 140 00:08:05,430 --> 00:08:08,030 you to capitalise on your strengths at work? 141 00:08:08,350 --> 00:08:13,390 What advice or thoughts would you give to other project 142 00:08:13,390 --> 00:08:17,310 leaders or project managers about having introverts on their 143 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:21,550 teams and giving them what they need to do the best job they 144 00:08:21,550 --> 00:08:24,990 can? Even though you know, extrovert 145 00:08:24,990 --> 00:08:28,470 versus introvert is not part necessarily of the being 146 00:08:28,470 --> 00:08:30,670 inclusive organisations and discussion right. 147 00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:33,990 Being inclusive organisation does not necessarily limit you 148 00:08:33,990 --> 00:08:38,150 to being inclusive to different genders or or neurodiverse 149 00:08:38,150 --> 00:08:42,710 people or whoever else it it simply means that you're 150 00:08:42,710 --> 00:08:47,430 creating environments where no matter what kind of person you 151 00:08:47,430 --> 00:08:51,310 are, you can be at your best. So, so you know continuing to 152 00:08:51,310 --> 00:08:54,950 invest into that and amplifying that you know will definitely 153 00:08:54,950 --> 00:08:57,470 help everyone including introverts. 154 00:08:58,470 --> 00:09:01,190 Claire what what? What strengths do you feel 155 00:09:01,190 --> 00:09:05,590 introverts bring to her team and how can there be better 156 00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:11,190 supported? I guess it's that that that 157 00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:15,710 diversity. So in terms of, you know, if 158 00:09:15,710 --> 00:09:19,430 you've got experts on the team or you've got, you know, male 159 00:09:19,430 --> 00:09:24,710 females, it's it's having that that balance and that diversity 160 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:29,150 of thought, diversity of view. I guess the problem you 161 00:09:29,150 --> 00:09:32,910 sometimes get is that the introverts don't manage to get 162 00:09:32,910 --> 00:09:36,510 their points across and therefore you don't end up with 163 00:09:36,510 --> 00:09:39,790 that diversity of thought because you know the introvert 164 00:09:39,790 --> 00:09:42,630 isn't isn't putting that point across. 165 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,720 Should it be that the person who's running that meeting be, 166 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,680 you know, knowing of that and should therefore invite people 167 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:53,840 they know to be kind of quieter than others to contribute? 168 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,640 Would that help I? Think I think it's everybody's 169 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,560 responsibility actually. I think, I think, you know, we 170 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:07,320 we should all be be able to read the room and to understand what 171 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,160 other people are doing, what their preferences are, you know, 172 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,110 what they've got to contribute. And you know, if you've got 173 00:10:16,110 --> 00:10:21,030 people in a meeting or or in a workshop, they're there for a 174 00:10:21,030 --> 00:10:22,910 reason. And if they're not there for a 175 00:10:22,910 --> 00:10:25,270 reason, then they shouldn't be there at all because we've all 176 00:10:25,270 --> 00:10:29,310 got better things to be doing. I think it's upon everybody to 177 00:10:29,310 --> 00:10:31,990 make sure that everybody else is contributing. 178 00:10:32,190 --> 00:10:37,590 And you know it's it's upon me as an introvert to know when I'm 179 00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:43,070 being introverted but but equally I don't necessarily want 180 00:10:43,070 --> 00:10:47,270 somebody to go what do you have to say on the matter because 181 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:50,470 then it's you know it's everybody head turning to stare 182 00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:54,070 at me which you know I will just go nothing thanks. 183 00:10:54,670 --> 00:11:00,030 So it's it's allowing allowing the introvert the time to think. 184 00:11:01,670 --> 00:11:03,950 Next, we turn to the topic of risk management. 185 00:11:04,430 --> 00:11:07,510 Risk is a word that is usually seen to have an exclusively 186 00:11:07,510 --> 00:11:10,230 negative meaning. And while it's essential that 187 00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:12,830 roject Rofessionals pay attention to the eventualities 188 00:11:12,830 --> 00:11:15,550 that could derail their projects, there is a growing 189 00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:18,470 school of thought that argues that opportunities as well as 190 00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:21,390 risks need to be a greater part of the risk management 191 00:11:21,390 --> 00:11:24,910 conversation. Peter Simon of AP, Ms Risk SIG 192 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:29,990 was on hand to explain more. Are you suggesting that on a 193 00:11:30,070 --> 00:11:33,550 project as much attention should be given to the opportunities, 194 00:11:33,550 --> 00:11:37,350 and I'm thinking of those as the positive side of things, as to 195 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:43,350 the risks and the threats, And if and if so, would that then 196 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:48,310 shift the mindset or the energy on a project towards some more 197 00:11:48,830 --> 00:11:52,550 positive? I don't want to just think of 198 00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:57,990 projects as purely as costing money and and taking time, but 199 00:11:57,990 --> 00:12:01,590 all projects do have a budget. When things go wrong, they can 200 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:06,070 go very very wrong. So something can cost twice as 201 00:12:06,070 --> 00:12:09,350 much as you anticipated or take twice as long. 202 00:12:10,430 --> 00:12:15,510 It's very unlikely for something to cost half as much as you 203 00:12:15,510 --> 00:12:17,910 thought it was going to be. I'll take half as long. 204 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:22,390 So what that's what I mean by that is the it's a skew the term 205 00:12:22,390 --> 00:12:24,390 we'd use, it's a skewed distribution. 206 00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:28,190 Things can get a lot worse than they can get them. 207 00:12:28,190 --> 00:12:30,550 On the contrary, they can get a lot better. 208 00:12:30,950 --> 00:12:35,670 So that's one of the dilemmas. Do we spend time trying to find 209 00:12:35,830 --> 00:12:38,950 the little things that might happen when there's a lot more 210 00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:41,960 bigger things out there that if they happen, could destroy the 211 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,550 project? So there is that dilemma. 212 00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:46,550 So should you put as much effort in? 213 00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:48,790 And the answer therefore is probably not. 214 00:12:48,790 --> 00:12:52,510 But don't ignore it because there might be using a metaphor, 215 00:12:52,590 --> 00:12:56,590 some low hanging fruit somewhere that you can pick and get, but 216 00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:59,310 but putting the same amount of effort in, Probably not. 217 00:12:59,470 --> 00:13:03,710 But also what tends to happen in projects. 218 00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:07,550 And you will be aware that projects go through a life cycle 219 00:13:08,110 --> 00:13:11,870 and a certain point in that life cycle the project gets signed 220 00:13:11,870 --> 00:13:13,910 off. And it doesn't matter if this is 221 00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:15,990 a an agile or an iterative life cycle. 222 00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:18,470 There's a point where we can decide to spend some money 223 00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:20,390 because we've got something we're going to do. 224 00:13:21,310 --> 00:13:26,880 What tends to happen is psychologically, and that you 225 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:28,640 might have heard the term optimism bias. 226 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,760 The good things that might happen tend to be put into our 227 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,440 baseline. It's like saying it's going to 228 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,230 be a sunny day every day. We assume that it's not on all 229 00:13:40,230 --> 00:13:42,190 the good things. We might be able to get that a 230 00:13:42,190 --> 00:13:45,190 little bit cheaper. So we put that in a base case 231 00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:48,350 and that happens a lot, especially when people want to 232 00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:50,870 get their project to go ahead for some reason. 233 00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:53,990 They've got to meet a hurdle of it's got to cost less than this. 234 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:56,550 So it's got to be done in a shorter time than that or 235 00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:59,750 something. Which means if you've built in 236 00:13:59,790 --> 00:14:03,710 all those opportunities, and this is born out in the research 237 00:14:03,710 --> 00:14:05,990 that people do opportunity management right at the 238 00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:09,190 beginning, then things can only get worse. 239 00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:12,990 You know, if you put a plan together and it doesn't matter 240 00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:16,350 what it is, the schedule together and it's and it's based 241 00:14:16,350 --> 00:14:20,590 on 8 hours productivity every day doesn't matter what you're 242 00:14:20,590 --> 00:14:23,150 doing. It's been a sunny day every day, 243 00:14:23,550 --> 00:14:29,520 all the equipment arriving on time, all IT code working first 244 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,960 time and people do that then it can. 245 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,600 It can't get better than and that's what the dynamics would 246 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,760 opportunity management. We grasp it too early. 247 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,720 So what's your advice about mitigating that kind of optimism 248 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,640 bias or unnatural proclivity towards opportunities? 249 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,440 Understanding that you're doing it is one thing. 250 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,080 What also then can overcome that if you do end up doing, and 251 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,400 again you might have heard the term quantitative risk analysis 252 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,000 where you do simulation models, then that exposes that. 253 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,480 That will expose the fact that everything is very optimistic, 254 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:14,030 but be aware you're doing it and maybe thinking just think it 255 00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:16,150 might not be a sunny day every day. 256 00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:20,270 A lot of that also comes down to and another word that gets used 257 00:15:20,270 --> 00:15:23,830 in risk management even though it's a commonly used term is is 258 00:15:23,830 --> 00:15:26,350 assumptions. Then what are we assuming? 259 00:15:26,750 --> 00:15:31,150 And you know you could say we it might be sunny every day or 260 00:15:31,150 --> 00:15:33,870 that's fine, but are you assuming it's going to be sunny 261 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:36,150 every day? And if you are then it can only 262 00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:39,230 get worse. So sometimes think of what what 263 00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:42,790 are you assuming and whether you're over assuming things 264 00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:45,750 because it's the assumptions of the good things in that sense. 265 00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:51,510 The debate around agile versus waterfall methodologies is an 266 00:15:51,510 --> 00:15:53,430 Evergreen topic in project management. 267 00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:56,990 But not everyone agrees that project approaches can be neatly 268 00:15:56,990 --> 00:16:00,390 divided into these two camps. And others contend that agile, 269 00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:03,670 or rather agility, has been in evidence on projects for 270 00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:06,590 decades, if not centuries, rather than being a modern 271 00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:09,830 innovation. Picking up the debate on the APM 272 00:16:09,830 --> 00:16:13,550 podcast this year was veteran project manager Adrian Dooley. 273 00:16:15,170 --> 00:16:18,570 Agile came about at the turn of the Millennium. 274 00:16:19,050 --> 00:16:23,810 How has the concept of Agile changed since then since the 275 00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:28,250 Agile Manifesto came out, and how has that morphed into 276 00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:31,930 something for the world of project management to use? 277 00:16:32,530 --> 00:16:36,290 There's a perception that Agile started with the manifesto. 278 00:16:36,570 --> 00:16:40,210 If if we drop the word Agile for a moment and talk about agility, 279 00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:45,590 you know the ability to flex and be adaptable on your projects, 280 00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:50,510 that there are numerous examples and case studies going back to 281 00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:55,510 the the Pantheon in Rome in the 1st century through Christopher 282 00:16:55,510 --> 00:17:00,080 Renz and Paul's Cathedral, where people have had to stop, 283 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,040 rethink, look again at the scope and head off in a slightly 284 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,280 different direction. That that's nothing new. 285 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,560 So I think agility has all always been there. 286 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,920 The only thing that started in 2001 was the hype. 287 00:17:14,950 --> 00:17:19,470 The Agile Manifesto crystallised that, perhaps, as I suggested, 288 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,880 as a reaction to how the software industry had somewhat 289 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,160 unthinkingly adopted so much stuff from construction which 290 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,320 wasn't necessarily relevant. But it was that manifesto that 291 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:41,720 started in 2001 and rapidly became something that I believe 292 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,920 it wasn't intended to be because of the hype. 293 00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:49,310 What did it become then? Almost like a cult. 294 00:17:50,030 --> 00:17:52,790 I'd agree with you and I probably would drop the word 295 00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:57,360 almost. I think yes, it's it has become 296 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,040 a cult. One example of that is that 297 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,240 agile has become binary. You know when I talked about 298 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,280 agility and flexibility, you're talking about something which is 299 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,120 a continuum. There are different degrees of 300 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,310 agility, different degrees of flexibility, whereas agile has 301 00:18:15,310 --> 00:18:19,040 become binary. Sadly something I I do quite a 302 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,480 bit is monitor all the conversations on social media 303 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,480 about this and you keep getting these debates amongst people who 304 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,040 are in the agile community saying, well that's agile, 305 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,440 that's not agile, particularly when it comes to trying to scale 306 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:40,120 agile across an organisation. If if you look at this stuff on 307 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,560 social media, for example on LinkedIn, you will find there is 308 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,640 quite a battle between the camps that say safe the scale agile 309 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,870 framework. Safe is not Agile and other 310 00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:55,870 people will say, well yes, this is it's scaled out of agile. 311 00:18:56,110 --> 00:18:59,310 You'll get people debating whether Scrum is Agile or not. 312 00:18:59,310 --> 00:19:03,270 That's a slightly different kind of argument, but there are these 313 00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:08,510 quite heated debates about what is Agile what is not Agile. 314 00:19:08,510 --> 00:19:12,750 It's become binary. And one of my observations is 315 00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:17,430 that because people can't quite pin down what Agile is, they 316 00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:21,390 resort to the easier thing of defining what it isn't. 317 00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:23,230 And that's where waterfall comes from. 318 00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:28,430 Because if we can't agree what Agile is, let's talk about what 319 00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:30,630 it isn't. We don't have a name for what? 320 00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:32,990 It isn't in the way that we have a name for Agile. 321 00:19:32,990 --> 00:19:38,270 So we need to create something an antonym for Agile and that's 322 00:19:38,270 --> 00:19:39,950 where the term waterfall comes from. 323 00:19:40,670 --> 00:19:45,630 And you will see some quite prominent and respected people 324 00:19:45,670 --> 00:19:50,950 will quote things about waterfall or the other term that 325 00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:54,350 they they commonly use is traditional project management. 326 00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:58,230 So there's this idea that there is this traditional project 327 00:19:58,230 --> 00:20:03,270 management, IE every project previous to 2001 followed this 328 00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:07,230 traditional approach and typically that is colloquially 329 00:20:07,230 --> 00:20:11,110 called waterfall. Which is you sit down, you 330 00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:14,630 define everything, you produce an immutable plan which can't 331 00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:18,070 change, and then you start delivering according to that 332 00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:22,960 plan. Is, I say, a creation of people 333 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,480 who want to promote what they perceive as the opposite to 334 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,390 that? Our final lesson learned comes 335 00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:33,670 from a podcast in which Emma was joined by a panel of women who 336 00:20:33,670 --> 00:20:37,270 shared experience and advice on how best to deal with menopausal 337 00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:40,270 symptoms at work and how to support colleagues going through 338 00:20:40,270 --> 00:20:43,070 menopause. The guests explored why project 339 00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:45,550 work can present additional challenges to women going 340 00:20:45,550 --> 00:20:48,590 through menopause and also considered practical tips for 341 00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:52,990 team leaders who want to help. Is there anything specifically 342 00:20:52,990 --> 00:20:56,470 about project work that is trickier to manage when it comes 343 00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:59,710 to sort of also living with menopausal symptoms? 344 00:21:00,870 --> 00:21:05,070 I think the confidence issue is is a challenge and I think 345 00:21:05,070 --> 00:21:08,870 another thing with project work is certainly sort of where I am 346 00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:12,150 guess I do get to work flexibly, but I'm on the client side. 347 00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:15,750 I know if I was not on the client side, I would probably be 348 00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:20,240 expected to be in the office much more on site particularly 349 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,480 because it's a construction project there would be that, but 350 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,920 also projects are not often that long in nature. 351 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,280 You may be moving on. So therefore you're then going 352 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,240 back and if you know symptoms can go on for you know seven 353 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,070 years on average. So you're then having to say all 354 00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:42,790 against somebody else. So it's it's that that you with 355 00:21:42,790 --> 00:21:45,950 projects and and the churn of people on projects, a lot of 356 00:21:45,950 --> 00:21:48,110 people don't stay on big projects more than a couple of 357 00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:50,670 years. So you are often having to have 358 00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:54,110 the same conversation 18 months later. 359 00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:58,390 And I said if you're expected to go on site which a lot of people 360 00:21:58,830 --> 00:22:02,430 are unless you speak up and then it's like well the spotlight's 361 00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:03,950 on you, why are you not doing that? 362 00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:06,800 Why do you get off the hook? And that's not a comfortable 363 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,640 conversation to have, is it? Sometimes? 364 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,630 Because you don't want to be the one standing out in the crowd of 365 00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:14,390 everyone else that's going on site. 366 00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:17,710 But actually, sometimes you're far too hot to put on all that 367 00:22:17,710 --> 00:22:20,920 high vis. Is it then just a matter of 368 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,000 being brave and doing it and having that conversation? 369 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:29,310 It's also individual. I felt at times when I was going 370 00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:33,110 through it, a lack of confidence and a poor night's sleep. 371 00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:35,150 Everything else. I was probably the worst person 372 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:38,910 to advocate for myself because I probably would have chewed the 373 00:22:38,910 --> 00:22:42,920 head off and you know, just have pure tiredness. 374 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,240 So I think that's why it's not just menopausal or 375 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,320 postmenopausal women. We all have to advocate because 376 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,680 you know, we're all going to go through it collectively because 377 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,560 it's it's not. You're not always in the best 378 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,510 position with the greatest amount of confidence to speak up 379 00:22:59,510 --> 00:23:02,550 for yourself in that moment when you're challenged and you've 380 00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:05,230 got, you know, 12 men looking at you and the only person in the 381 00:23:05,230 --> 00:23:08,470 room or any woman in the room, it's a little bit like, oh, I 382 00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:10,510 don't really want to tell you all of that right now. 383 00:23:12,410 --> 00:23:16,130 What advice would you give to if you're in a project and project 384 00:23:16,130 --> 00:23:20,370 manager, as a team leader, wants to do the right thing and is 385 00:23:20,370 --> 00:23:22,650 perhaps thinking about these issues for the first time? 386 00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:24,330 Rachel. I've asked them to think about 387 00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:27,130 it. What is helpful for them to do? 388 00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:30,290 What is it about creating particular kind of culture? 389 00:23:30,290 --> 00:23:31,810 Is it about the practical things? 390 00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:35,050 Is it about the language you use when talking about it? 391 00:23:36,550 --> 00:23:41,670 I think it's down to company culture and about talking about 392 00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:45,550 all sorts of medical health issues from mental well-being. 393 00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:49,670 So if we keep bringing all of these up, I think it's about 394 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:51,990 culture. There's practical things here on 395 00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:57,910 the mine in every lady's toilet, says sanitaryware available a 396 00:23:57,910 --> 00:24:01,110 variety to you. So if you have an accident, you 397 00:24:01,110 --> 00:24:03,910 don't have to worry and go searching for another female to 398 00:24:03,910 --> 00:24:06,230 ask if she's got anything. It's there. 399 00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:09,870 Simple little hacks like that from a practical perspective, 400 00:24:09,870 --> 00:24:14,640 but ultimately it's culture so that you've you've feel you can 401 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,990 speak up without been embarrassed about something that 402 00:24:18,990 --> 00:24:29,230 actually is very normal. That's it for our roundup of the 403 00:24:29,230 --> 00:24:31,430 year's highlights. There were many more insights we 404 00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:34,030 didn't have time to feature here, so why not go back and 405 00:24:34,030 --> 00:24:37,070 delve into our back catalogue from 2020 all the way up to the 406 00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:39,990 present? We also want to hear your views. 407 00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:44,070 What did you learn on the APM Podcast in 2023, and is there a 408 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:46,510 topic you'd like to hear a tackle in 2024? 409 00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:50,350 We're always keen to hear your thoughts at 8:00 PM Podcast at 410 00:24:50,350 --> 00:24:55,350 thinkpublishing.co.uk. If you've enjoyed the content 411 00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:58,190 we've put out this year, please leave us a review wherever you 412 00:24:58,190 --> 00:25:01,030 get your podcasts. Thanks to all our listeners for 413 00:25:01,030 --> 00:25:03,470 your continued support and we look forward to bringing you 414 00:25:03,470 --> 00:25:07,710 more episodes in the new Year. This podcast has been brought to 415 00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:10,630 you by APM, the Chartered Body for the project profession. 416 00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:13,950 Find out more at Amorg UK.