1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,370 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the APM Podcast. 2 00:00:09,380 --> 00:00:13,270 My name is Professor Adam Bodison, Chief Executive of APM, 3 00:00:13,340 --> 00:00:16,550 and today I'm delighted to be joined by two of my esteemed 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,170 colleagues at the association, Sue Kershaw and Yvonne Thompson. 5 00:00:20,380 --> 00:00:23,810 Despite being nearly 100 episodes into the APM podcast, 6 00:00:23,820 --> 00:00:27,150 this is actually the first one we've ever recorded in person 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,200 and we're here at our head office in Princess Risborough. 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,390 And Nat perhaps should give you a small hint that the format 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,430 today is going to be a little different to our usual format, 10 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:41,330 but more on that in a moment. Perhaps now is a good time for 11 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:43,830 us all to introduce ourselves. So, Sue, would you like to go 12 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:45,110 first? Lovely. 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,740 Thank you Adam, really pleased to be here as well with your 14 00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:50,970 good self and with everyone. It's a lovely afternoon. 15 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:54,510 So I'm a civil engineer in the programme manager and I was born 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,410 on the construction site in New Zealand, so that was his kind of 17 00:00:57,420 --> 00:00:59,530 indicator of where I'd end up in my career. 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,250 So being a civil engineer is something that really excites me 19 00:01:03,260 --> 00:01:04,870 as well as being a programme manager. 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,710 I get out of bed every day for difficult complex mega projects, 21 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,470 things that really, really challenged me and they're 22 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,170 really, really difficult. Anything that is easy is too 23 00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:17,870 boring and doesn't work. I've worked in the UK and 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,010 overseas, and I'm a great proponent of assurance and 25 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:23,950 delivery partner roles because I don't think any client anywhere 26 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:26,950 in the world can actually deliver things unless they have 27 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,130 a delivery partner to help them. And maybe more of that later as 28 00:01:30,140 --> 00:01:34,930 we talk about options on that. A past president of APM and a 29 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:38,010 currently an honorary professor at UCL Bartlett School of 30 00:01:38,020 --> 00:01:41,110 Sustainable Construction. Wow, I've heard you introduce 31 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,550 yourself a lot of time so and every time I learned something 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,270 new today it was that you were born on a construction site at 33 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,990 that's when I shall make a note of and Yvonne, how about you 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,250 next? Ohh wow. 35 00:01:50,630 --> 00:01:53,380 Well, thank you for inviting me to be sorry A. 36 00:01:53,390 --> 00:01:57,500 Part of this very special podcast but also I am so 37 00:01:57,510 --> 00:02:00,980 privileged and honoured. For the button to be passed by 38 00:02:00,990 --> 00:02:07,120 Sue to me as the I'm currently still president-elect, but to be 39 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:10,400 shortly to be president of the APM. 40 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,480 My background has been mostly in marketing and communications, so 41 00:02:15,490 --> 00:02:17,360 I spend a lot of time on committees. 42 00:02:17,770 --> 00:02:20,400 I run a women in Business Network. 43 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:22,810 I run my marketing and PR company. 44 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,250 My background, or my Forte if you like, is equality and 45 00:02:29,260 --> 00:02:34,960 diversity, for which I've received a Commander of the 46 00:02:34,970 --> 00:02:41,420 British Empire 21 years ago. I have two honorary degrees. 47 00:02:41,810 --> 00:02:47,850 Um, around the work I do. In equality and diversity and I 48 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:52,390 have 4 fellowships recognising those same areas. 49 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:56,750 But I'm so looking forward to learning a lot about project 50 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,270 management because this is an area that I am quite new to. 51 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:02,540 So I'm looking forward to learning a lot. 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,370 But I hope I'm able to bring a. Lot as well. 53 00:03:05,460 --> 00:03:07,750 I'm sure that will be true. For those of you who don't know 54 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,170 me, I'm Adam Bodison. I'm the chief executive of AP. 55 00:03:10,180 --> 00:03:11,690 I've been here nearly three years now. 56 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:13,850 I was saying earlier on that seems like it's gone like 57 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:17,650 lightning, appointed during the pandemic and still here today. 58 00:03:18,140 --> 00:03:21,520 So as I mentioned, Kelly, the format of this podcast will be a 59 00:03:21,530 --> 00:03:25,180 little bit different to usual. Normally on this podcast, we 60 00:03:25,190 --> 00:03:28,220 kind of interview a guest. But this time, I think we're 61 00:03:28,230 --> 00:03:31,820 going to try and run it more as a an informal roundtable chap 62 00:03:31,830 --> 00:03:34,230 between the three of us. Because of course, as you, as 63 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,860 you mentioned, Yvonne, the primary reason we're here today 64 00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:41,220 is to mark the handover in the presidency at APM from Sue to 65 00:03:41,270 --> 00:03:43,300 Yvonne. And so that gives us a really 66 00:03:43,310 --> 00:03:46,440 good opportunity to step back, reflect on the state of the 67 00:03:46,450 --> 00:03:49,520 project profession more broadly and in particular, some of the 68 00:03:49,530 --> 00:03:52,680 changes we've seen over your time, Sue, as President and some 69 00:03:52,690 --> 00:03:56,650 of your priorities Evonne, going forward for the next few years. 70 00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:00,560 So let's get going And maybe, Sue, just to start us off with 71 00:04:00,570 --> 00:04:03,810 that kind of looking back kind of theme, perhaps you could give 72 00:04:03,820 --> 00:04:06,520 us a few reflections on your presidency and where you think 73 00:04:06,530 --> 00:04:10,150 we are as a profession now compared to when you started 74 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,770 with us back in 2019? Indeed. 75 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,190 I thank you, Adam. It's been a real joy in this 76 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:16,700 position. They're gonna know you're going 77 00:04:16,709 --> 00:04:19,550 to enjoy it as well. It's a it's a great privilege to 78 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,930 be president of APM and to be the first female one was 79 00:04:22,940 --> 00:04:25,510 absolutely super. And I know you do equally well 80 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,000 in your role. So what what did I sort of think 81 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:32,380 about in my presidency? One was looking at complexity, 82 00:04:32,390 --> 00:04:34,860 which we all experienced in our everyday life, things more 83 00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:37,640 complex, more difficult. But what does that mean for 84 00:04:37,650 --> 00:04:39,720 projects and programmes? How do we need to deal with it 85 00:04:39,730 --> 00:04:41,890 differently? And we can look at maybe how we 86 00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:44,740 talk about governance in that respect on programme directors. 87 00:04:44,750 --> 00:04:46,950 But there is something we cannot ignore. 88 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,630 Things are getting more and more difficult. 89 00:04:48,890 --> 00:04:51,960 And we've got to find a way as a profession to get through that. 90 00:04:52,070 --> 00:04:54,600 We've moved from mega projects to giga projects and last five 91 00:04:54,610 --> 00:04:58,000 years, trillions of pounds and dollars are being poured into 92 00:04:58,010 --> 00:05:02,220 these things. We must actually deliver what we 93 00:05:02,230 --> 00:05:04,450 say we will deliver. And I think, and I think a bit 94 00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:06,550 differently, but we're getting there. 95 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,290 We're not ignoring it. I think the other thing is 96 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:11,580 connectivity. And I know with your background, 97 00:05:11,590 --> 00:05:13,930 being a professor as well, Adam, you're reaching into the 98 00:05:13,940 --> 00:05:18,750 universities, actually looking at how we can build MBA's into 99 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,050 delivery MBA rather than business MBA's, you know, 100 00:05:22,060 --> 00:05:25,270 reaching into schools, reaching into other membership, 101 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:28,510 professional organisations, how can we work Better Together? 102 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:31,230 That has come a long way over the last few years. 103 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,070 And I'm so pleased that we're now working closely with PMI 104 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,150 and, and the recent announcements made in that 105 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,950 respect really to me is is almost the icing on the cake. 106 00:05:41,090 --> 00:05:43,430 This you know, both our organisations together, we are 107 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,750 going to be the only ones in the world that are going to be 108 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:47,400 heading up project and programme management. 109 00:05:47,410 --> 00:05:50,410 Well, you know, that was one of the very first calls I made when 110 00:05:50,420 --> 00:05:53,250 I started in the in the role was to try and get that relationship 111 00:05:53,260 --> 00:05:56,150 back on track. But so you you talked about kind 112 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,740 of that move from mega projects to giga projects. 113 00:05:58,750 --> 00:06:02,240 You know, these are enormous. I mean, it's hard to almost kind 114 00:06:02,250 --> 00:06:05,980 of imagine the scale of some of these things that we're talking 115 00:06:05,990 --> 00:06:09,130 about. And presumably these very, very 116 00:06:09,140 --> 00:06:12,500 large projects are there because we're trying to solve some of 117 00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:15,410 the world's biggest problems. I mean, for those people that 118 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:18,500 maybe are head down getting on with it today, can you give us 119 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:21,920 some insights into the kinds of problems that these projects are 120 00:06:21,930 --> 00:06:23,480 trying to tackle? Yeah, you're right. 121 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:25,170 They're huge. They're huge and they're 122 00:06:25,180 --> 00:06:26,680 problems we can't ignore anymore. 123 00:06:26,690 --> 00:06:30,120 It's the human race. So a very UK example is we're 124 00:06:30,130 --> 00:06:33,500 now going to build reservoirs for the first time in 30 years. 125 00:06:33,730 --> 00:06:36,290 No one can remember how to build reservoirs because they will 126 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:38,440 retired or moved on. If we don't have those 127 00:06:38,450 --> 00:06:41,260 reservoirs, we don't have clean water and it goes on and on and 128 00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:43,200 on. So how do you deal with that? 129 00:06:43,210 --> 00:06:46,080 And how do you, when you're spending billions, how do you 130 00:06:46,090 --> 00:06:48,550 make sure you got the right governance around that spending, 131 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,740 the right risk approach, the right people leading it, the 132 00:06:51,750 --> 00:06:54,580 right understanding of what you're doing, not only in 133 00:06:54,590 --> 00:06:56,770 delivering the project, the programme, but the impact of 134 00:06:56,780 --> 00:06:59,110 that on the environment, on the communities. 135 00:06:59,260 --> 00:07:01,030 You know, the ripples go on and on and on. 136 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:02,970 We can't just think in silos anymore. 137 00:07:02,980 --> 00:07:08,300 So we have to embrace complexity and ambiguity because you can't 138 00:07:08,310 --> 00:07:11,630 come up and say this is how you do mega giga projects anymore. 139 00:07:12,860 --> 00:07:15,070 There there isn't gonna be a check sheet of it. 140 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,150 It's gonna be how do we talk together to get the best 141 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,130 solutions and the best outcomes? Yeah, it's interesting isn't it 142 00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:23,420 because I think one of the perceptions out there of the 143 00:07:23,430 --> 00:07:25,310 profession is it's all about process. 144 00:07:25,940 --> 00:07:29,010 And one of my own reflections on three years in is it, I hear 145 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:32,230 more about people usually than I do about process, although you 146 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:33,910 know process obviously important as well. 147 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,200 If I let let's turn to yourself, obviously just coming into the 148 00:07:38,210 --> 00:07:43,090 role, as you say you've started in a few weeks time, you you've 149 00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:45,850 had a little bit of time to get to know us as an organisation. 150 00:07:45,860 --> 00:07:49,410 I know you came to our annual conference a few weeks ago, but 151 00:07:49,420 --> 00:07:51,930 I wonder if you might share a little bit what you think your 152 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:57,190 priorities will be as president. Where do you think we need to be 153 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:58,710 positioning ourselves going forward? 154 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,190 What kind of opportunities do we have that we need to kind of get 155 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,690 hold of? Well, that is a very big 156 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,940 question which commands a big answer, but. 157 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,270 I don't think we have time for that right now. 158 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:17,150 But you know, as some people will have seen, I've listed my 159 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,330 priorities or what I real are the priorities, which is around 160 00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:25,920 embracing innovation, diversity and inclusion is a must. 161 00:08:25,930 --> 00:08:29,660 I mean, all of these are really important and I think we have to 162 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:35,669 look at all of them with the same, with the same focus and 163 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,929 the same will to make them. And I I'm being quite ambitious 164 00:08:38,940 --> 00:08:42,190 because I've got 8 priorities I've got. 165 00:08:42,230 --> 00:08:46,610 And I'm I am. Really hoping that if we don't 166 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:49,000 get all eight, we will get some of them. 167 00:08:49,090 --> 00:08:53,720 So as I said, diversity and inclusion, championing 168 00:08:53,730 --> 00:08:57,130 sustainability in green initiatives, I mean, that's what 169 00:08:57,140 --> 00:09:00,010 the world is all about now, networking. 170 00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:06,550 So it's hugely important. And for me, networking, quite 171 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:10,590 often people take it as something, just something you 172 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,530 may or you may not do. And for me it's a must because 173 00:09:15,540 --> 00:09:19,370 unless you're networking and you're increasing and widening 174 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,940 your influence, you're just going to be standing still, 175 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:27,170 which is not good for anybody. Professional development, we all 176 00:09:27,180 --> 00:09:30,530 know how important that is. And that is one of the key 177 00:09:30,540 --> 00:09:33,950 things navigating remote, remote work. 178 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,110 I mean, what what is the next step to remote working? 179 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,150 Will more people remain at home? Will more people come back? 180 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,570 Will we see an increase of people wanting to do more days? 181 00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:49,390 Will we return to five days or even four days a week? 182 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,560 That is such a big question and I think it's something that 183 00:09:53,870 --> 00:09:58,630 everybody has to focus on and the big, big talk again right 184 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,190 now, AI and technology, I mean, but you know, what I really want 185 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,910 to highlight is the point that you just made Sue around 186 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,830 reservoirs and, and you know, how do we prepare today for 187 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,630 success tomorrow? How do we pass all that 188 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,930 knowledge on? How do we keep those 189 00:10:18,940 --> 00:10:21,770 conversations going? How do we make it work? 190 00:10:21,820 --> 00:10:30,110 So for me, although I I have a lot of ambition for APN, I think 191 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,160 all of those points are really important and I'll be talking to 192 00:10:35,170 --> 00:10:37,920 Adam about which ones we prioritise very soon. 193 00:10:37,930 --> 00:10:41,220 I'm sure it's one of the things I enjoy about the relationship 194 00:10:41,310 --> 00:10:43,940 between the CEO and the presidency is you get the, the 195 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:47,420 Direct Line. Sue certainly made use of that 196 00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:49,580 and I'm sure that will continue with with with yourself. 197 00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:53,140 Yvonne, couple of reflections. So AI, we're going to come back 198 00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:55,620 to a bit later in our conversation, but you mentioned 199 00:10:55,660 --> 00:10:58,520 about the, the kind of remote working, hybrid working. 200 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:01,780 And, and I just share with our listeners really how we do that 201 00:11:01,790 --> 00:11:04,480 at APM, because we use an approach, which I call the 202 00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:08,000 footpath approach, which you may be familiar with from your 203 00:11:08,190 --> 00:11:11,450 infrastructure work, which is rather than set a policy and 204 00:11:11,460 --> 00:11:15,100 then say this is the policy, you know, all in or all out or, or 205 00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:19,940 whatever combination is, we actually started by looking at 206 00:11:19,950 --> 00:11:24,840 what people did naturally 1st and then built our policy around 207 00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:27,080 that. And what we realised is that if 208 00:11:27,090 --> 00:11:30,000 we did anything, which was just on a kind of a weekly kind of 209 00:11:30,010 --> 00:11:31,520 basis, that wasn't going to work. 210 00:11:31,530 --> 00:11:34,420 And so we ended up going for, we want people in a minimum of four 211 00:11:34,430 --> 00:11:36,360 days per month. Because what that meant is if 212 00:11:36,370 --> 00:11:39,020 you were far away, you might be able to come in and do a block 213 00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:41,000 of four days. Or if you're local, you might do 214 00:11:41,010 --> 00:11:43,560 a day a week and all kinds of other arrangements. 215 00:11:43,630 --> 00:11:46,720 And the reason we call it the footpaths analogy is that on on 216 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:50,080 buildings, when a build like a new housing estate and so on, 217 00:11:50,190 --> 00:11:53,340 one of the things they do before they build the footpaths is they 218 00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:55,770 look where are people walking and then they build the 219 00:11:55,780 --> 00:11:57,420 footpaths. And I thought that's quite a 220 00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:59,660 good way of building policy in an organisation. 221 00:11:59,670 --> 00:12:02,580 I think more organisations are to do that type of thing. 222 00:12:02,590 --> 00:12:05,940 I think absolutely. You mentioned networking. 223 00:12:06,670 --> 00:12:09,540 I wonder if I just might ask about that with, with lots of 224 00:12:09,550 --> 00:12:12,230 people working from home now, I think particularly those who are 225 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,720 early career professionals, maybe they haven't had that 226 00:12:14,950 --> 00:12:18,120 experience of working in an office with other people before. 227 00:12:18,190 --> 00:12:20,820 Some of them might not know what good networking looks like. 228 00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:22,860 I mean, what advice would you give to someone who's listening 229 00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:26,810 to this now, Yvonne, who thinks, yeah, I I'd like to network, but 230 00:12:26,820 --> 00:12:29,690 I'm not sure how to start or what it looks like. 231 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:31,160 What? What advice would you give? 232 00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:35,940 Well, I always say find your focus and focus on your focus 233 00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:40,240 and then apply the four P's network with passion, with 234 00:12:40,250 --> 00:12:44,060 purpose, with profile and with positioning. 235 00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:50,560 So with your purpose, you don't turn up to an opening of an 236 00:12:50,570 --> 00:12:54,030 envelope. That's the saying. 237 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:59,130 So be very focused about. Why your networking, where your 238 00:12:59,140 --> 00:13:03,690 networking and who you're networking with and if that fits 239 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:09,240 to your career path and helps you along your way, it's almost 240 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:11,990 like. Making a networking. 241 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,110 Road map in a way, so you decide where it is you need to be and 242 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,450 you map out your journey to get there through networking. 243 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:25,270 So network with purpose. Why are you going? 244 00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:30,120 Keep Flings 6 serving men. Do you know that one? 245 00:13:30,130 --> 00:13:31,300 I don't know it, but do you know? 246 00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:34,780 It tell me Kipling had six serving men. 247 00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:38,500 They taught him all he knew their names. 248 00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:41,680 Were where, why, when, what, and who. 249 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:44,480 Ohh, OK. I'm I'm sure I've got that 250 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:47,720 slightly wrong, but looking up if you just write those things 251 00:13:47,730 --> 00:13:49,480 down and. Apply it. 252 00:13:49,570 --> 00:13:55,560 To almost anything from writing a business plan to writing a 253 00:13:55,570 --> 00:13:58,780 press release to writing a story. 254 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,700 You know what is it you want to do, why you want to do it? 255 00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:03,680 How? It's all there. 256 00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:07,730 So it's. For me it really is. 257 00:14:07,740 --> 00:14:12,420 About passion, purpose, profile, does it help your profile? 258 00:14:12,430 --> 00:14:14,450 What does that do with your profile? 259 00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:17,450 For me, you always try to network upwards. 260 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,630 It's fine networking with your peers, but think about 261 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,690 networking. Up rather. 262 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:27,010 Than staying on the same level. It's all about just making sure 263 00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:29,050 you're on the right trajectory. OK. 264 00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:31,260 Well, I think that's some really good advice that really good 265 00:14:31,270 --> 00:14:33,590 advice for for for anyone at any stage of their career. 266 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,770 In fact, I think and then and then just lastly before we move 267 00:14:36,810 --> 00:14:39,450 into some of the questions, you talked about the importance of 268 00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:42,990 diversity, equity, inclusion and going into something that we've 269 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,710 we have to kind of two focuses on that APM just kind of an 270 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,810 internal focus as to what we do kind of organisation with our 271 00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:52,390 own staff and volunteers. But there is then also how we 272 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,640 influence the profession and what our expectations are of the 273 00:14:56,650 --> 00:14:59,450 profession. Obviously everybody's talking 274 00:14:59,460 --> 00:15:02,490 about this, but I know from talking to my fellow CEO's and 275 00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:06,880 other organisations think people wake up with a really good 276 00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:10,320 intention around this area. But so many people get it wrong. 277 00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:11,760 Why? Why? 278 00:15:11,770 --> 00:15:13,160 Why do you think that is? If I'm why? 279 00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:15,860 If people really want to get this right, why do we get it 280 00:15:15,870 --> 00:15:20,010 wrong so often? It's it's. 281 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,790 Difficult. And the answer is different for 282 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:28,250 every company, every CEO, every HR you know, depending on what 283 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:32,850 your what your company is. But for me, I always feel that 284 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:34,950 if there is a will, there is a way. 285 00:15:35,140 --> 00:15:38,760 People always talk about hard to reach communities. 286 00:15:38,770 --> 00:15:40,860 There are no longer any hard to read. 287 00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:43,490 Everyone's got a phone, most people have access. 288 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:44,970 To the Internet. Yeah. 289 00:15:44,980 --> 00:15:47,390 I would say are they hard to reach or are we hard to access? 290 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,730 That's how I always like to turn the question over, Ted, you 291 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:51,290 know? There you go, and you're 292 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:54,070 absolutely right. And it's the will to get these 293 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,180 things done. I know I wanted to talk about 294 00:15:57,220 --> 00:16:01,530 menopause, where nobody would ever touch that subject before, 295 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:03,640 but now it's. All it's. 296 00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:07,540 All that the organisations talk about and for me equality and 297 00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:09,850 diversity is a very much like that. 298 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:15,400 It's just about getting it into getting into the DNA of the 299 00:16:15,410 --> 00:16:18,980 organisation really. OK, well, I'm sure that will be 300 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:20,780 a recurring theme as we go through today. 301 00:16:20,830 --> 00:16:23,600 So Sue, let's come back to infrastructure and major 302 00:16:23,610 --> 00:16:25,710 projects. You know, one of the things 303 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,300 we're obsessed about in the project profession, and it's a 304 00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:32,090 good obsession I think is learning lessons and applying 305 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:36,040 lessons. What do you say over the kind of 306 00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:39,320 past five years, would you say that we've learnt from kind of 307 00:16:39,330 --> 00:16:42,740 major projects in infrastructure and what would we need to change 308 00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:45,900 to kind of successfully deliver the pretty ambitious 309 00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:50,210 infrastructure ambitions that we have for for this country? 310 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,370 That's a really good question and we have learned a lot. 311 00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:56,170 And in fact, the UK is the number one infrastructure 312 00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:58,530 organisation country in the world. 313 00:16:58,540 --> 00:17:01,530 And you think about that, I have tiny, we are now we have people 314 00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:04,230 from the States, Australia, Canada seeing, I'm seeing the 315 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,640 Singapore and Canadians this week, you know, they're coming 316 00:17:07,650 --> 00:17:10,990 to see us to learn how we deliver projects and programmes. 317 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,710 And that's when the general public go, Oh yeah, it's twice 318 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,670 as much since two years late, blah, blah, blah. 319 00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:20,490 And the the basis for all of that is we have to squeeze in 320 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,150 the business case initially into Treasury in such a way that it 321 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,280 will get passed. If you ever did go back and put 322 00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:31,760 the final business case into Treasury, we would never have 323 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:34,900 got the green light for Crossrail, the Olympics, HS2 or 324 00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:37,240 any of them. So there's a huge you can't get 325 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:39,540 the politics out of the projects and programmes. 326 00:17:39,550 --> 00:17:42,860 That's the hardest thing because most project and programme 327 00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:44,670 managers aren't naturally political. 328 00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:48,120 So we need a lot of guidance on that and I think we are learning 329 00:17:48,130 --> 00:17:50,040 on it. And then from a practical point 330 00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:53,600 of view, we have ever since the Olympics than a proper lessons 331 00:17:53,610 --> 00:17:56,860 learnt exercise on each one of these mega projects. 332 00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:59,540 And not at the end when everyone's disappeared, but 333 00:17:59,550 --> 00:18:04,160 methodically as we deliver, we capture all of these and we put 334 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:08,720 them in a decent data set and make them accessible and free to 335 00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:10,900 access. So every single project can 336 00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:12,990 learn from each other, and that is something that's really 337 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,480 special, I think. I think that's where AI can 338 00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:17,920 help, Karna, because, you know, if you've got all of this data 339 00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:20,980 from so many projects and to be able to, you know, how long 340 00:18:20,990 --> 00:18:23,350 would it take a person or even a group of people to go through 341 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,800 those types of things, The lessons learned, that could be 342 00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:28,690 different. And I suppose if we're talking 343 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,610 about infrastructure. So it would be a shame for me 344 00:18:31,620 --> 00:18:35,510 not to let you give a plug for the MBA that you're involved 345 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,470 with, right? So consider that a nudge in the 346 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,940 right direction. Thank you Adam. 347 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:45,020 Thank professor to professor. It is so exciting and the UCL 348 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:48,970 Bartlett School is sustainable construction and I when I was 349 00:18:48,980 --> 00:18:51,830 visiting professor, we can't, what can we do that's different? 350 00:18:51,940 --> 00:18:55,840 How can we make sure the next cohort, the CEO's and CFO's in 351 00:18:55,850 --> 00:18:58,350 this area really do know their staff? 352 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:01,770 And we came up originally what was going to be an MSC, but then 353 00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:04,660 we've actually got for the first time ever in the world, we've 354 00:19:04,670 --> 00:19:07,820 got the agreement to have an MBA in something that wasn't about 355 00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:09,730 business. So it's about major 356 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:15,150 infrastructure delivery and it's set to for people aged 35 to 45 357 00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:19,200 and it's set so it fits in with their working lives. 358 00:19:19,210 --> 00:19:22,350 So it's 22 week stints every four months. 359 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,310 They all have mentors and they mentor each other. 360 00:19:26,380 --> 00:19:28,760 We have keynote speakers, some of the great and the good. 361 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:30,970 We talked about Crossrail, Mark Wilds as an example. 362 00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:34,130 He came in and gave his speech. We had an extra small word from 363 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:36,040 our IPA came and gave his speech. 364 00:19:36,050 --> 00:19:40,390 So it's real time, hands on learning from the experts with 365 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,860 the top of the range backup from academia and also backup from 366 00:19:43,870 --> 00:19:46,220 industry as well. I, I lecture there on assurance, 367 00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:49,460 for example, which is something I think we need in mega and Giga 368 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:51,840 project. So it is real, it's of the 369 00:19:51,850 --> 00:19:56,870 moment and it's tangible so that when the students do their final 370 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,860 year project, it has to be on something that their company 371 00:20:01,010 --> 00:20:03,010 needs to change or do differently. 372 00:20:03,020 --> 00:20:06,620 So it's totally LinkedIn and, and I don't know if anyone seen 373 00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:10,050 any of the LinkedIn expressions of joy from these students, but 374 00:20:10,060 --> 00:20:13,690 it's quite fundamental and very moving that we've hit the spot 375 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:14,430 exactly. Right. 376 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,120 Yeah, I've seen that. And I think it's part of a wider 377 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:20,310 move that I've seen of MBA programmes really embracing 378 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,850 project management. I see that whether it's as a 379 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:27,890 core part of the programme or as a kind of specialist pathway, I 380 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:30,510 just see that more and more coming through. 381 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,600 And The thing is just one final thing I just ask you about to in 382 00:20:33,610 --> 00:20:36,470 almost every public sector document that I read at the 383 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,980 moment, I keep hearing about this, the role of the 384 00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:41,230 integrator. This is something that you and I 385 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,230 have spoken about before. People out there may not be 386 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,580 familiar with that. I wonder if you could educate us 387 00:20:46,590 --> 00:20:48,910 and give us the kind of the elevator pitch for the the role 388 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,910 of the integrator. Thank you, Adam. 389 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,330 It's right at the top of my mind at the moment for other reasons. 390 00:20:54,340 --> 00:20:59,870 But yes, it is a very, very resurgence element from Project 391 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,470 13, which had the role of the capable owner, it had the 392 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,290 integrated, it had digital, it had organisation governance. 393 00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:09,350 They were the five pillars of Project 13. 394 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:11,850 Project 13 was a movement, it wasn't mandated. 395 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:15,140 So some organisations like Anglian Water, for example, have 396 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:17,850 totally embraced it and that's how they deliver all their 397 00:21:17,860 --> 00:21:22,050 projects and programmes. So in the very much bit like APM 398 00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:25,610 is very agile fleet of footwear. We're not doing it like this 399 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:28,930 because we've always done it. But that integrated role works 400 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:32,470 underneath the client and literally, as it says, 401 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,940 integrates everything for them. So if you were building your 402 00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:40,410 house, if you like, you would then as the sponsor you'd say 403 00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:42,820 I've got this much budget and you're integrated, then go and 404 00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:45,720 do everything else for you and your house would be delivered. 405 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:49,020 That's the concept and it's come from the petrochem industry who 406 00:21:49,030 --> 00:21:54,030 do it very well and some of the military people do it well. 407 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,330 We don't in infrastructure do it well. 408 00:21:56,340 --> 00:21:59,590 We have silos, whether it's a supply chain consultant, 409 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,970 contractor, whoever, you know you can work on some projects. 410 00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:05,930 We've got 13 different organisations, so if you don't 411 00:22:05,940 --> 00:22:08,410 join them up, you're really not going to succeed. 412 00:22:08,420 --> 00:22:11,850 So I'm very excited about this. I think goes hand in hand with 413 00:22:11,860 --> 00:22:14,910 delivery partners and with programme management. 414 00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:17,050 I think it's something to be hearing a lot more about going 415 00:22:17,060 --> 00:22:19,580 forward and if one obviously you're kind of new to this 416 00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:22,570 world, you know, all this talk of infrastructure and so on. 417 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,110 Sorry, I put you on the spot briefly if I may. 418 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:29,180 But I mean any reflections coming into this on where you 419 00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:32,980 think we are as a country around major programme delivery 420 00:22:32,990 --> 00:22:37,380 infrastructure and so on. Is obviously you kind of got a 421 00:22:37,390 --> 00:22:41,500 kind of very broad view kind of not the not the APM view 422 00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:44,500 necessarily yet. And any any immediate thoughts? 423 00:22:44,690 --> 00:22:48,530 Yes, I think the most glaring thing or thing that comes to me 424 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:54,820 immediately is HS2. It's taking so long, I don't 425 00:22:54,830 --> 00:22:57,270 know what the cost is now. And I think our super saying 426 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,860 that's kind of almost the case with every every publicly funded 427 00:23:00,870 --> 00:23:04,260 project because of the nature of the politics involved in it. 428 00:23:04,270 --> 00:23:07,120 But but you kind of touch on another issue that if one, which 429 00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:12,350 is the kind of public perception of projects and and I was 430 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,680 talking about the, you know, do we have an image problem? 431 00:23:14,690 --> 00:23:17,360 Because, you know, I think when do people, the general public 432 00:23:17,370 --> 00:23:19,900 hear about projects, right? It's never good news. 433 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:22,630 It's always in the media. You know, you mentioned HS2, you 434 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,640 know, that's obviously had a pretty challenging time in the 435 00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:27,950 media. But if it's not HS2, then it's a 436 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,140 government IT project that's overspent or the NHS often takes 437 00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:34,720 a battery and you know, new hospitals and so on. 438 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:39,560 So the general public has this perception of all projects 439 00:23:39,570 --> 00:23:42,060 overspend, all projects don't deliver the benefits. 440 00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:44,960 All projects felt particularly publicly funded projects, I 441 00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:46,300 would add, because of the scrutiny. 442 00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:49,080 I mean, one, I don't think that's a fair reflection of 443 00:23:49,090 --> 00:23:52,690 necessarily where we are. But again, I just with the 444 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:55,290 benefits of you as somebody coming into the into our 445 00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:59,090 profession, if you like and joining us is that is that the 446 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,380 perception you think that's out there and what do you think we 447 00:24:01,390 --> 00:24:03,910 need to do with your comes background and PR background to 448 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,910 change it well. Well, I think, I think. 449 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,930 That is the general perception, but I, I would want to kind of 450 00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:16,470 step back and say one that I think was going that way but has 451 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,950 redeemed itself is the Elizabeth line. 452 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,430 I just think that travelling on, it's like a futuristic 453 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,490 experience. So I know you have to kind of 454 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:34,300 oversell an upsell, but it's almost that we talk about all 455 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:37,430 these things as though they're going to be the greatest thing 456 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,490 that ever was. It doesn't, it doesn't manage 457 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:44,670 expectations. Yeah, I suppose. 458 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,320 I was, I would say it's one of the greatest branding exercises 459 00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:50,360 in history because Crossrail was really challenging for all kinds 460 00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:52,430 of reasons. But the Elizabeth lines a huge 461 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,010 success. And I don't know what the secret 462 00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:58,430 sauce was in there, but it seems to me like the answer when we 463 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,390 get to the end of HS2 eventually is give it a really good name 464 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,950 and maybe that'll solve all the problems. 465 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,270 I don't know. So let me ask you about this 466 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,040 perception issue. One of the things I always think 467 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:14,330 is a kind of counterbalance to some of these perceptions is 468 00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:17,830 chartership, you know, because that is about competence. 469 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,670 It's about saying, look, we've got people here who can deliver. 470 00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:24,030 I wonder if you what your thoughts are on both both 471 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,910 chartership as a tool here and what else do we need to do to 472 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,510 kind of tackle the image problem? 473 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,900 Thank you, Admire. I mean, I was a great believer 474 00:25:31,910 --> 00:25:33,780 in chartership. I remember when we actually were 475 00:25:33,790 --> 00:25:38,290 granted it and we had to sort of get together to celebrate in the 476 00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:39,750 House of Commons with the Speaker. 477 00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:43,910 And that moment in time was was a moment of history because we 478 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,590 finally got in my perspective to be a professional institution. 479 00:25:50,530 --> 00:25:54,040 And that to me is you can't fall lower ever than what your 480 00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:56,360 profession is. And to give people the 481 00:25:56,370 --> 00:26:03,220 opportunity to be a professional project manager or, or, and a 482 00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:05,950 professional engineer or professional accountant, QS or 483 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,760 whatever, that gives you the opportunity to give people two 484 00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:13,490 chances in their careers immediately or a choice of both 485 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,260 and mix it up. And it is being recognised by 486 00:26:16,270 --> 00:26:18,320 clients as something that's super important. 487 00:26:18,330 --> 00:26:20,880 It's been recognised by the individuals and it's been 488 00:26:20,890 --> 00:26:23,810 recognised by the organisations in which they work. 489 00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:25,960 It's, it's a win, win, win completely. 490 00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:29,140 And I just love the fact that we've gone from potentially 491 00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:32,920 perception wise, you know, our volunteering group of people who 492 00:26:32,930 --> 00:26:35,540 do good things into this professional body. 493 00:26:35,550 --> 00:26:38,360 And you know, they were the other big professional bodies 494 00:26:38,450 --> 00:26:41,500 and numbers wise, we get getting there as well. 495 00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:44,080 It's it's fantastic. And once you have that gravitas, 496 00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:47,080 I think you then have the voice and and people will listen, 497 00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:50,620 government will listen and and we will be seen to be that that 498 00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:52,670 go to professional place. Yeah. 499 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,240 I think a key moment for me will be going forwards when the 500 00:26:57,250 --> 00:27:00,500 public perception shifts because they go actually we've got 501 00:27:00,510 --> 00:27:02,480 competent people now delivering projects. 502 00:27:02,550 --> 00:27:04,840 And so we can now have confidence whether it be a 503 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:07,750 publicly funded project or a privately funded project, we can 504 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,850 now have confidence that these things are going to deliver the 505 00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:12,470 benefits. That would be a big moment. 506 00:27:13,210 --> 00:27:16,370 We've kind of flirted around the topic skills here. 507 00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:20,180 We know you kind of hinted at it earlier, Sue, that there's this 508 00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:24,300 big international ambition, you know, things like the United 509 00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:25,800 Nations Sustainable Development Goals. 510 00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:27,720 There's a lot of things we want to deliver as a world. 511 00:27:27,790 --> 00:27:29,790 We have to deliver in fact, as a world, right? 512 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,380 You know, some extra existential type challenges that we face. 513 00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:36,840 But we know that we haven't got enough project professionals to 514 00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:39,560 deliver on them. And we also know that the ones 515 00:27:39,570 --> 00:27:42,920 that we have got, we need to constantly upskill them because 516 00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:45,420 the world is changing so much and the role is changing so 517 00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:49,520 much. So how do we, how do we tackle 518 00:27:49,530 --> 00:27:52,440 that skills gap? If you like skills challenge, 519 00:27:52,450 --> 00:27:56,270 which is looking like it's going to get harder, not easier over 520 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,660 time. So I'll start with you and then 521 00:27:57,670 --> 00:27:59,210 I'll come over to you. To you, everyone. 522 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,370 I think one is to celebrate the Broadchurch. 523 00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:04,890 We are, so we have project managers who project manage 524 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:08,570 small, very bespoke projects up to these multi-million giga and 525 00:28:08,580 --> 00:28:11,870 everything in between to celebrate that and, and try and 526 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,130 entice the people within those projects and programmes to bring 527 00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:19,430 more people in that they know. I've seen huge amounts of people 528 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,990 decide to be project managers after they've been on site for a 529 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,210 year, for example, in their, they've been away having a year 530 00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:27,730 out and seeing what it means for infrastructure in different 531 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:30,210 worlds. I, I think bringing that Broad 532 00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:33,960 church, celebrating at Broadchurch, bringing people in 533 00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:36,820 and then looking at some of the professions that are dying. 534 00:28:37,050 --> 00:28:40,400 So what professions are dying? Well, quite a lot through AI 535 00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:42,080 you're going to change immensely. 536 00:28:42,130 --> 00:28:45,240 So there's a pool of people there you could maybe come 537 00:28:45,250 --> 00:28:46,760 across. I think the beauty of project 538 00:28:46,770 --> 00:28:50,950 management, it's, it's basically common sense. 539 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:55,230 It is basically common sense and common sense a lot of people 540 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,630 have that we could bring and we could retrain. 541 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,610 We could retrain a lot of the finance people that are now 542 00:29:00,620 --> 00:29:04,630 being not used because things have been done in different 543 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,390 ways. You know, we could actually just 544 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,820 think about things a little bit differently and welcome people. 545 00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:11,750 And the things that we were talking about earlier was the 546 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,890 armed forces, when people finished their turn with three 547 00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:17,930 5-7 years, they are perfect project managers. 548 00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:20,640 So they overlap with other professions, with other sectors 549 00:29:20,650 --> 00:29:22,970 and so on. That can be almost a hook to 550 00:29:22,980 --> 00:29:25,030 bring them in because they already know part of the job. 551 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,700 Yeah. Really interesting and fun. 552 00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:29,540 Your reflections. It's almost like. 553 00:29:30,660 --> 00:29:37,270 Teaching young people about financial competence from an 554 00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:42,150 early age. We need to get them into the 555 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,880 mindset of project management from an early age. 556 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:51,210 I think also what they then go on to do with what they've 557 00:29:51,220 --> 00:29:54,450 learnt is up to them because I think as we're finding 558 00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:58,170 practically anything you're involved in, there is a project 559 00:29:58,220 --> 00:30:01,730 management element to it. Also. 560 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,050 I feel that we need to be doing lifelong learning. 561 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,920 Refreshing, upskilling constantly because as we all 562 00:30:11,930 --> 00:30:15,910 know, by the time everything is moving so fast, by the time you 563 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,870 take two or three years to learn one thing, it's moved on. 564 00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:27,590 Or even the job that you take now will no longer be a job in 565 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,270 two or three years time. So it really is all about just 566 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,630 keeping that constant lifelong learning and upskilling 567 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,410 constantly. Yeah, absolutely. 568 00:30:38,420 --> 00:30:41,510 I always say we want children in school saying when I grow up I 569 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,050 want to be a project, Exactly. Project Professional. 570 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,050 So. Yeah, that's what we want, 571 00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:47,450 right. Two, two of the kind of big 572 00:30:47,460 --> 00:30:50,180 topics I want to talk about and I think I'll ask each of you, 573 00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:53,840 one of them if, if, if I may. So if I'm going to start with 574 00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:57,430 you and ask you about sustainability, massive topic. 575 00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:02,650 We know that it's often built into projects and certainly when 576 00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:04,750 it comes to the chartered project professionals, it's one 577 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,870 of the things that's there as as a competence. 578 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,150 So they're more likely to have that built into their projects. 579 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,150 But what impact do you think project professionals have on 580 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,510 net zero and could we be doing more? 581 00:31:20,350 --> 00:31:24,360 Wow, that is a big question. I think we could always. 582 00:31:24,370 --> 00:31:26,800 Be doing. More I heard something earlier. 583 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:31,450 I think we need to be. We need to be more agile in our 584 00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:33,130 thinking, if that's the right word. 585 00:31:33,140 --> 00:31:40,190 And we need to be more open to accepting the, the changes that 586 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,870 come with the change, if you like, of the world. 587 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,690 I mean, where we can, we need to look at everything, examine 588 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:51,300 everything. And for sustainability, it is. 589 00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:53,230 It's. Crucial. 590 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,270 It's, you know, it's beginning or end of the world, isn't it? 591 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,790 Really. So it's that wide range of 592 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,350 voices. I have a phrase for this, which 593 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,980 I don't know if I've said to either of you before. 594 00:32:00,990 --> 00:32:03,230 I loved it. I I said we need to harness the 595 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,570 wisdom of crowds. Yeah. 596 00:32:05,580 --> 00:32:09,000 Because actually it's a breadth of ideas that you need to kind 597 00:32:09,010 --> 00:32:11,130 of bring in. OK, thank you for that. 598 00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:16,210 And Sue, we hinted about AI earlier on and data analytics. 599 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,070 How are these going to change the profession? 600 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,790 In fact, how have they changed the profession? 601 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,180 Probably already there. And what can those people who 602 00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:27,750 are already practising project professionals do to kind of 603 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,400 prepare for what comes next? That's a really good question. 604 00:32:31,410 --> 00:32:34,180 And it was buzzing in our conference everywhere. 605 00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:36,720 Everyone was talking about digitalization and AI. 606 00:32:36,730 --> 00:32:40,220 And the the big conclusion I came to after listening to some 607 00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:44,440 fantastic speakers was it's here, embrace it. 608 00:32:44,890 --> 00:32:48,280 And The thing is, if you fight, if you cast your mind back to 609 00:32:48,290 --> 00:32:50,400 the bad old days. I had one boss, for example, in 610 00:32:50,410 --> 00:32:54,000 Thailand who said there is never going to be a computer on 611 00:32:54,010 --> 00:32:56,930 everyone's desk. This reminds me of when I was in 612 00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:00,320 school and my maths teacher told me I had to learn how to 613 00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:03,350 multiply numbers because people aren't going to be walking 614 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,520 around with a calculator in their pockets all day, you know? 615 00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:07,760 And now we all walk around with a smartphone, right? 616 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,460 Yeah, exactly right. So so embrace it cuz it does 617 00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:14,100 free up people's time. And I've got examples of that in 618 00:33:14,110 --> 00:33:18,100 terms of bidding. Bidding for major projects costs 619 00:33:18,250 --> 00:33:21,390 millions of pounds and you often lose it because not everyone can 620 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,580 be the winner. If everyone's got AI, everyone's 621 00:33:24,590 --> 00:33:28,760 got access to almost at the end of their at some point in time, 622 00:33:28,930 --> 00:33:31,720 producing almost the same response to that bid. 623 00:33:31,850 --> 00:33:35,560 So then how do you as a client, pick who you want to work for? 624 00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:38,930 Well, it's either going to be the money or the people. 625 00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:43,050 And I think that frees up people to actually add much, much more 626 00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:44,880 to project delivery than ever before. 627 00:33:45,290 --> 00:33:47,660 And it gives you that thinking time as well. 628 00:33:47,810 --> 00:33:50,540 And that's the big thing to me. You can be stuck in process or 629 00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:54,600 stuck in bid writing or whatever and you're not actually on what 630 00:33:54,610 --> 00:33:56,970 you should be on and then bringing what needs to be 631 00:33:56,980 --> 00:33:58,440 brought. Through I'm gonna ask you on, 632 00:33:58,450 --> 00:34:01,260 I'll put you on the spot if I may suit regulation. 633 00:34:01,350 --> 00:34:04,800 Should I be regulated? I don't think you can regulate 634 00:34:04,810 --> 00:34:05,780 it. OK. 635 00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:07,210 I think the cats out of the. Book. 636 00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:10,790 But the reason I'm asking is because one of the facts that I 637 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,100 think was widely reported in the media earlier this year was that 638 00:34:15,110 --> 00:34:18,280 because the immense kind of computing power that's needed to 639 00:34:18,290 --> 00:34:20,320 process kind of AI searches and so on. 640 00:34:20,570 --> 00:34:25,199 The statistics was something like for every 20 to 50 searches 641 00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:29,610 of something like Chappie or Gemini, it takes the equivalent 642 00:34:29,620 --> 00:34:33,130 of a 500 millilitre bottle of water to to do the necessary 643 00:34:33,139 --> 00:34:36,850 cooling in the data centre. And so I suppose that kind of 644 00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:40,909 brings into play a kind of a water security issue. 645 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,010 And do we really understand the true cost of AI? 646 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,670 And when we do understand it, yes, the genie is out the 647 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:50,690 bottle, as you, as you say, are the cats out the bag. 648 00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,510 But you know, so maybe there's no going back. 649 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,469 But I suppose that it just interesting from a business case 650 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,400 perspective, because I suppose you can, you know, if you're 651 00:34:58,410 --> 00:35:02,060 using a I to improve healthcare, advances in healthcare, finding 652 00:35:02,070 --> 00:35:05,450 new, you know, cures for cancer and so on, there's clearly a 653 00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:08,110 business case there. If I'm using a I because I want 654 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,700 to, it's a writer bedtime story for my 5 year old. 655 00:35:12,190 --> 00:35:14,590 Is that worth the cost? And and and and. 656 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,840 I'm using two quite extreme examples there, but you see the 657 00:35:16,850 --> 00:35:19,420 point I'm making. No, I do I, but I honestly do 658 00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:21,420 see as liberation, not regulation. 659 00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:23,360 Interesting. And back in the health industry, 660 00:35:23,370 --> 00:35:26,600 the doctors are finding by having a, I helped them write up 661 00:35:26,610 --> 00:35:31,280 their notes, they get 66 zero percent more time with the 662 00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:34,000 patient. And that's what really sold it 663 00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:36,440 to me, because what you want is a patient. 664 00:35:36,450 --> 00:35:38,180 You want that doctor with you? Well, it's true. 665 00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:40,660 I mean, I, I remember reading some research which said that 666 00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:44,310 the, the the process of talking to the doctor before the 667 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,300 doctor's even said anything already helps the patient to 668 00:35:47,310 --> 00:35:49,060 feel better because they're in the room having that 669 00:35:49,070 --> 00:35:51,380 conversation. And I don't know about you, but 670 00:35:51,390 --> 00:35:54,730 I can't get into my doctor's to have a conversation at the 671 00:35:54,740 --> 00:35:55,860 moment. It's always a phone call. 672 00:35:55,870 --> 00:35:58,680 But maybe I'm in the wrong part of the country, I don't know. 673 00:35:59,110 --> 00:36:01,400 OK. If on any final thoughts on AI 674 00:36:01,410 --> 00:36:04,660 before we move on? There's so many people still 675 00:36:04,770 --> 00:36:06,890 pushing against it, it's unbelievable. 676 00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:11,870 And I really do think that you either AI or you die. 677 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:13,950 Ohh. Well, a very clear, very clear 678 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,770 statement from you there. OK. 679 00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:18,610 So I think we're kind of, we've asked all the things I wanted to 680 00:36:18,620 --> 00:36:19,770 ask. I think we're kind of towards 681 00:36:19,780 --> 00:36:21,930 our closing thoughts. So what I'm going to do is I'm 682 00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:25,330 going to ask each of you, Sue and then Vaughn to share your 683 00:36:25,340 --> 00:36:29,510 closing thoughts. And that could be kind of your 684 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,850 general thoughts about the profession and where we are or, 685 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:34,930 or anything that's really jumped out of you about our 686 00:36:34,940 --> 00:36:37,190 conversation today. So Sue. 687 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,570 Thank you, Adam. To me, it's so exciting to be in 688 00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:43,420 a profession that's growing and thriving. 689 00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:47,830 That is the place to be and I defy anyone not to say that 690 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,690 because if you're in something that's dying or decaying, it's 691 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:52,800 not a good place to be. So that's where we are. 692 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,900 We have agility second to none and we are now renowned not only 693 00:36:57,910 --> 00:37:01,570 across the UK but across the globe and that is just such an 694 00:37:01,580 --> 00:37:05,150 exciting place to be. Their inspirational thoughts 695 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,330 from you there as always, Sue and Ivonne. 696 00:37:08,190 --> 00:37:12,760 Well, I am really excited to be taking over from. 697 00:37:12,830 --> 00:37:16,690 The guardianship of. Sue because she's left us all in 698 00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:19,840 a good place and made my my start the start of my. 699 00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:23,870 Journey very easy, so thank you very much for that. 700 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:30,290 I'm just looking forward to working and supporting and doing 701 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:33,430 whatever I can, not only to learn because even during this 702 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,250 conversation I've learned so much. 703 00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:40,310 So thank you both for that. But I would really like to see 704 00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:46,510 the APM as the project management equivalent of the 705 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,870 Institute of Directors. Yes, well, I like that. 706 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,970 One of the one of my things I said, I think I might even said 707 00:37:52,980 --> 00:37:55,310 it in my interview for the CEO job. 708 00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:59,310 I said for me, wouldn't it be great if we, if, if everybody 709 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,270 would have they thought about delivering the project, they 710 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,220 immediately thought about APM. So think project, think APM, 711 00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:07,140 absolutely. I don't know, maybe it's 712 00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:10,100 something in that, right. Well, our time is unfortunately 713 00:38:10,110 --> 00:38:13,840 nearly up for today, but I do want to just extend a huge thank 714 00:38:13,850 --> 00:38:18,100 you to both Sue and Yvonne for joining me today and to all of 715 00:38:18,110 --> 00:38:21,640 those listeners out there. And before we go, I'd also like 716 00:38:21,650 --> 00:38:24,440 to invite those listeners to say that if you do have any 717 00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:27,560 questions off the back of today's discussion, then please 718 00:38:27,570 --> 00:38:32,660 reach out to us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 719 00:38:32,770 --> 00:38:37,920 We'd be very happy to continue the conversation with you, and 720 00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:40,280 we'll be back in a couple of weeks with another new episode 721 00:38:40,290 --> 00:38:43,220 of the APM podcast. But for now, goodbye and thank 722 00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:44,090 you for listening.