1
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,400
Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the chartered body for 

2
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,520
the project profession. 
My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 

3
00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,760
the editor of Project APM's 
quarterly journal and your host 

4
00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,400
today. 
This podcast, we're talking 

5
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,600
about simplicity. 
It's a topic that crops up 

6
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,920
relatively often when I 
interview senior project 

7
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,240
professionals about how they 
make the delivery of their 

8
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,800
projects a success, and one 
therefore worth exploring for 

9
00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,920
you. 
To get to the bottom of this 

10
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,560
deceptively complex subject, I'm
joined by Nathan Hellebrand, 

11
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,760
global delivery director of 
Babcock International Group, 

12
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,480
who's bread and butter is highly
complex projects, and Mike 

13
00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,320
Hudson, Interim strategy 
Management Director at the 

14
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,800
National Trust. 
Both are chartered project 

15
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,640
professionals, so listen on to 
find out their advice and their 

16
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,280
thoughts on keeping things 
simple. 

17
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,879
I'd like to welcome both of you 
to the APM Podcast. 

18
00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:09,080
Thanks for joining me today. 
I think let's begin by each of 

19
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,280
you giving a brief overview of 
your role and what that 

20
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,920
encompasses, and perhaps an idea
of the kinds of projects you'd 

21
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,320
lead. 
So Mike, would you like to go 

22
00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,440
first? 
So I'm the interim strategy 

23
00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,600
management director at the 
National Trust and the, the kind

24
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,400
of units I suppose is the best 
way to describe it that I, I, 

25
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,200
when we, we kind of encompass 
strategy planning, research, 

26
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,320
PMO, performance and insight. 
And so we kind of operate at 

27
00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:41,880
that kind of enterprise level 
supporting the exec team. 

28
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,440
So that I suppose the role of 
the team is really around 

29
00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,000
providing high quality impartial
advice, kind of critical friend 

30
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,640
type, well, lots of actionable 
insight and we kind of own a 

31
00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,320
number of organisational 
processes. 

32
00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,640
So it's keeping those as 
streamlined and as integrated as

33
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,880
possible. 
So we kind of managing kind of 

34
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,120
risk, but not getting in the way
of people getting things done 

35
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,320
because ultimately it's about us
delivering our strategy. 

36
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,400
Sounds great. 
How many project professionals 

37
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,640
do you have within the National 
Trust and can you give an idea 

38
00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:18,840
of the types of projects or 
programmes people are working 

39
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,320
on? 
Yes. 

40
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,520
So we have I think at the last 
count over 450 project 

41
00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,040
professionals in the 
organisation, a range of of 

42
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,880
different types of projects. 
So we have projects around 

43
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,280
restoring nature. 
We've got projects around 

44
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,000
conservation, which is probably 
the thing that you would most 

45
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,720
associated associate us with 
commercial type projects. 

46
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,120
So food and beverage, retail, 
that sort of thing. 

47
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:51,200
And then we've got a whole gamut
of marketing IT, probably most 

48
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,600
things you can think of. 
We do quite a lot of civil 

49
00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,840
engineering. 
We have lots of reservoirs and 

50
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,560
regulated structures and things 
like that to look after. 

51
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,360
So yeah, a whole kind of range I
would say. 

52
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:03,760
OK. 
Thank you. 

53
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,760
And Nathan, can you tell us a 
bit about your role and the 

54
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,680
kinds of projects you work on? 
Absolutely. 

55
00:03:09,920 --> 00:03:12,760
So I'm the global delivery 
Director for Babcock. 

56
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,720
I sit within our Chief delivery 
office for the group and that's 

57
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,920
made-up of a number of functions
which includes project 

58
00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:25,240
management, procurement, 
quality, IT and cyber 

59
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,520
engineering, transformation and 
facilities. 

60
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,320
And my role encompasses 
developing and delivering our 

61
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,960
strategy and key cross 
functional programmes that we're

62
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,520
we're doing across those 
functions within CDO. 

63
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,200
And then also the other half of 
it is providing a level of 

64
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,760
governance and assurance across 
the group to a number of our 

65
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,400
customer facing programmes too. 
And Kyle, what programmes the 

66
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,640
are you working on right now 
without going to specifics 

67
00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,600
obviously so. 
Within within my team, we are 

68
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,640
leading some large digital 
transformation programmes. 

69
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,680
So looking at some of our kind 
of key enabling capabilities 

70
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:15,800
across the group for delivery, 
we what my, my previous role 

71
00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:19,640
before this within the 
organisation was 

72
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,640
professionalising the project 
management function with, with 

73
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,480
Donna Cynic as well. 
I think you did that one the 

74
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,160
last conversation or we've had 
with her. 

75
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,240
And so that was another kind of 
big operating model challenge 

76
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,800
that involved process, procedure
and people. 

77
00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,680
So a quite diverse set at the 
moment and more to come in 2026 

78
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,440
as well. 
OK, sounds exciting. 

79
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,280
I it's a bit of an unusual 
topic, simplicity in projects. 

80
00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:51,760
I don't think that's probably on
any exam paper or framework I'm,

81
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,440
I imagine, but something that 
I've heard the more senior 

82
00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,320
people I talk to in projects, 
the more this idea of simplicity

83
00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,920
comes up. 
And there's a quote from Steve 

84
00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,200
Jobs of Apple that that was in 
Business Week when he says 

85
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,200
simple can be harder than 
complex. 

86
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,560
You have to work hard to get 
your thinking clean to make it 

87
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,720
simple. 
But it's worth it in the end 

88
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,480
because once you get there, you 
can move mountains. 

89
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,960
Would you agree with that place 
of you? 

90
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,720
Yeah. 
I mean, I would, I would totally

91
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,040
agree actually. 
I think the more complex 

92
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,120
projects I've been involved in 
over time, the more complex they

93
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,720
get, the greater the need for 
simplicity for lots of reasons, 

94
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,320
but not least for the people who
are involved in delivering them.

95
00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,520
So I think it's it's vital and 
the, I suppose the more senior 

96
00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,840
you get, the more that becomes 
part of what you can bring to 

97
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,280
that kind of project and the 
kind of context environment that

98
00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:48,600
people are operating in. 
When we talk about simplicity, 

99
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,960
is it simplicity in 
understanding what what what the

100
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,120
outcomes are? 
What the purpose is? 

101
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,880
What do you think of when you 
consider simplicity in complex 

102
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,600
projects? 
The starting point for me would 

103
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,000
always be the vision of the 
project and the kind of related 

104
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,320
set of objectives. 
So I suppose in my career I've 

105
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,280
I've been involved in projects 
at different stages. 

106
00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:13,760
I've started off early stages 
and had to work to to get that 

107
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,760
in place. 
But I've also picked up projects

108
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,680
part of way through. 
And if you're in a kind of turn 

109
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,280
around situation, I would say 
that quite often that's the 

110
00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,240
place to start. 
You can ask some quite simple 

111
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,720
and straightforward questions 
about what what people think 

112
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,320
they're doing and why. 
And if you get a whole variety 

113
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,200
of answers, then it starts to 
tell you that you're not, you're

114
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,640
not kind of getting that kind of
level of cut through that you 

115
00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,000
would, you would want to. 
So really kind of honing in on 

116
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,440
those objectives. 
And as Steve Jobs says it, that 

117
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,200
may take a little bit of time, 
but that's, that's it. 

118
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,960
It pays back I think in in 
spades if you do that. 

119
00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:52,640
Nathan, what are your thoughts 
around that? 

120
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,480
I completely agree. 
And I think simplicity is is an 

121
00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,080
underestimated value and it's 
something that you learn to 

122
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,280
appreciate more as you become 
more involved with bigger, more 

123
00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,200
complex programmes and something
that you learn. 

124
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:12,160
I think sometimes we think that 
complexity is a way of 

125
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,440
justifying contribution or, or 
making it seem like we know what

126
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,840
we're we're talking about. 
And I can't remember who said 

127
00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,560
it, but to kind of build on, on 
what we talked about, I think 

128
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,600
complexity is the enemy of 
execution. 

129
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,360
I think that's very true. 
OK. 

130
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,680
And Mike, what have you learnt 
about simplicity in projects? 

131
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,640
It's a bit of a big question, 
but and when did you start 

132
00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,000
thinking about this idea of 
simplicity? 

133
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:40,920
A few years ago I did a online 
course around leading complex 

134
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,240
projects and as part of it you 
have to have a a complex project

135
00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,960
or programme to to use as a case
study. 

136
00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:53,360
And it made me reflect that. 
I don't actually often reflect. 

137
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,920
I'm quite a doer, quite a 
pragmatist. 

138
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,560
So forcing myself to kind of 
reflect on what I'd learnt from 

139
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,480
running a complex programme over
the course of kind of six weeks.

140
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,720
It the, the kind of breakthrough
moments we had was where where 

141
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,960
we made things simpler and we we
made things clearer for people. 

142
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,320
I think when you start your 
career in kind of project 

143
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,200
management, you're so keen to to
get the thing done and 

144
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:19,760
understand that you'll be 
starting on relatively 

145
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,880
straightforward things. 
But it's only as you get into 

146
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,400
more and more kind of complex 
situations, especially with 

147
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,840
stakeholders, both internal and 
external, we can over complicate

148
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,920
things. 
And what a lot of the time what 

149
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,919
people crying out for is just 
cut through simplicity. 

150
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,120
So it's, I would say it's around
the kind of vision objectives. 

151
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,679
It's also around team roles and 
around making sure that they're 

152
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,559
simple and understandable for 
people. 

153
00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,799
And then most importantly around
decision making. 

154
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,960
So what's the sort of minimum 
information we need to make a 

155
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,680
decision? 
Who has those decision rights 

156
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,360
and then keep the momentum 
going? 

157
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,280
Because complexity can kind of 
stifle momentum, I would say. 

158
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,200
So when you're working on 
through a project, wherever you 

159
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,200
are in the life cycle, do you 
consciously look through a lens 

160
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,840
of trying to keep things simple 
as you work through the project 

161
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,040
cycle? 
If you join a project part way 

162
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:16,760
through or whatever, is that top
of mind or do you just, is it 

163
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,560
just a kind of like regular 
check you think to yourself or 

164
00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:21,680
when there's a problem, you 
think, how can we make this 

165
00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,960
simple? 
It's just how you actually make 

166
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,520
it work in practise. 
Yes, a good question that I 

167
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,560
think it's a, it's probably a 
slightly unconscious thing. 

168
00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:35,760
It was probably not top of mind.
But I think the more complex 

169
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,200
projects that you work on, it's 
so difficult to keep everything 

170
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,280
to keep everything in in one's 
head. 

171
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,600
So you're relying on lots of 
other people. 

172
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,040
You rely on everyone else doing 
their roles well. 

173
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,920
So for me, it's about keeping 
the environment that people work

174
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,600
within kind of as 
straightforward as, as possible.

175
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,040
So I probably do consciously do 
that. 

176
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,200
I'm not always thinking every 
single situation. 

177
00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,200
We've got to make, you know, 
simplicity is the thing. 

178
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,600
But I do think there's something
about, yeah, you just asking me 

179
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,440
these questions, but yeah, 
really makes me reflect, I think

180
00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:06,480
how how do you do this? 
But I think it is about making 

181
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,440
that operating environment 
straightforward for people. 

182
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,680
So does that mean? 
Is that translation to kind of 

183
00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:17,040
clear and direct communication 
and decision making? 

184
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:19,680
I think that's a huge part of 
it. 

185
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,320
I think as we were saying 
before, some people can try and 

186
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,360
hide behind complexity, but also
you get a huge range of 

187
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,080
stakeholder opinions around 
complex projects. 

188
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,920
And I suppose not everyone's 
going to get their way. 

189
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,560
But if you if you operate in an 
environment where everybody 

190
00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,640
thinks they are getting their 
way, it's, it's ultimately 

191
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,440
counterproductive. 
So I think there's something 

192
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:47,560
about in a polite and helpful 
way cutting through a lot of 

193
00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:50,400
that when you can and getting 
that kind of and I think 

194
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,720
clarity, decision making is 
hugely important. 

195
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,000
Nathan is, I mean, what have you
learned about simplicity in 

196
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,120
projects and is it a conceptual 
and approach to projects that 

197
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,480
you've deliberately thought 
about over your career? 

198
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,000
Is it something that's just 
surfaced as you've gained more 

199
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,120
experience with complex 
projects? 

200
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,360
But I think it's a bit of both. 
So you know, my career has been 

201
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:19,920
within engineering based 
projects and programmes and I 

202
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,360
started, I didn't have an 
engineering degree. 

203
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:28,040
So when I first started in the 
industry, I found it a huge 

204
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,240
challenge to understand the 
complexity of some of the 

205
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,840
projects that I was in. 
And so that gave me a real 

206
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,880
appreciation for one, 
understanding what's happening, 

207
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,120
but also the needs to be able to
simplify in a way that you can 

208
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,120
get many stakeholders linked to 
a project or a programme to a 

209
00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,880
point that they understand what 
you're trying to do and how 

210
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,080
you're trying to do it. 
And, and that is really for me a

211
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,400
key in being able to, to deliver
successful outcomes. 

212
00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,440
So part of it, I think was born 
from a place from where I 

213
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,600
started. 
But the more you get involved in

214
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,920
more complex programmes, the 
more you realise that you you 

215
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,080
won't have all the answers. 
And so recognising that actually

216
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,640
being able to use everything 
you're disposable and the 

217
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,840
breadth of experience and stay 
across who you're working with 

218
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,880
to help drive different thinking
so you can simplify complex 

219
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,960
problems is is really important.
So, so I think it's a bit of 

220
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,240
both. 
I think it's something that that

221
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,840
I encountered quite early on, 
but it's something that the, the

222
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,800
more you, you, you kind of 
developed your career in project

223
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,280
management that you, you really 
need to bring to the forefront 

224
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,040
of how you're managing. 
It's making me think that the 

225
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,960
idea of having diversity within 
project teams where people have 

226
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,640
come from different backgrounds,
have different ways of thinking,

227
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,680
actually prompts the people who 
are leading that or managing it.

228
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,080
Explain it in simpler terms. 
So it's kind of checking in that

229
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,040
you understand at the core what 
the project's about or what 

230
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,960
you're setting out to deliver. 
Is it? 

231
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,160
Would you agree with that, 
Nathan? 

232
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,680
Yeah, absolutely. 
I think, I think that's 

233
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,120
completely true. 
You know, your, your strength is

234
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,480
in diversity. 
Having, having, having one 

235
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,560
answer from one person all the 
time is, is not conducive to 

236
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,160
delivering complex programmes. 
And so I think that's a huge 

237
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,920
part of it. 
Mike, I'm going to ask you, how 

238
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,320
do you go about setting up a 
project or kick starting a 

239
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,920
project when you first begin 
working on one of establishing 

240
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,000
this? 
I guess it's a culture of 

241
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,880
simplicity or keeping things as 
simple as possible. 

242
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,200
Would you have any advice to 
people who are thinking, yeah, 

243
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,120
this, this makes sense? 
I'd like to give it a go, but 

244
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:49,880
translating it as a kind of 
ideal into everyday life, is 

245
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,080
there any advice you would give?
I know I've mentioned this 

246
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,360
before, but I think just going 
back to that kind of vision and 

247
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,520
objectives side of things, I 
just think it's so important. 

248
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,480
And I think Nathan was saying 
before you've got, you've got a 

249
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,320
wider project team. 
So not just your own 

250
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,000
organisation, but the other 
organisations, organisations 

251
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,840
that you're working with. 
Everybody's kind of 

252
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,280
understanding that elevator 
pitch for the project. 

253
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,000
Then you're giving yourself a 
much greater chance of 

254
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:17,840
succeeding you, you're giving 
yourself a much greater chance 

255
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,240
of working well together because
you're all pointing at the same 

256
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,880
same thing. 
So investing time in really 

257
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,520
understanding everybody, 
understanding and playing a part

258
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,600
in the vision, developing it so 
they own it as well. 

259
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,560
And also the objectives that 
kind of flow from that. 

260
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,040
One of the techniques that I 
learnt some years ago is this, 

261
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:44,000
it was called House of Success, 
snappily titled, but it's 

262
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,920
essentially you spend time 
working out your objectives and 

263
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,200
you, you get into quite 
interesting conversations about 

264
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,040
you, you start to categorise 
them into what's are absolute 

265
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,240
Givens that you, you don't want 
to trade off what, which 

266
00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,400
objectives are, are you prepared
to trade off and, and which kind

267
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,480
of objectives might you want to 
kind of optimise? 

268
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,600
And that as as with all these 
sorts of things, the strength of

269
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,320
that is it's actually in the 
conversation that you have with 

270
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,960
the with the group, not 
necessarily in the kind of sort 

271
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,760
of neat output. 
Nathan, I wanted to ask you then

272
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,320
if you have any practical advice
around setting up a project's 

273
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,600
culture to be as simple as 
possible, to value simplicity 

274
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,920
and and as part of that, as a 
project manager, as a project 

275
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,040
leader, how do you role model 
it? 

276
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,600
I'm just trying to give advice, 
pass on advice to those who 

277
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,400
think simplicity is a great 
idea, but actually putting it 

278
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,600
into practise is a bit of an 
unknown. 

279
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,040
Yeah, absolutely. 
So I think when you're starting 

280
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,640
a project or you're mobilising 
on a project or programme, one 

281
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,280
of the things which getting to 
you can get a team to focus on 

282
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,320
is the rule which is it whatever
we're doing, if it's, if it's 

283
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,200
not adding clarity or value, 
then it's it's likely making 

284
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,360
things more complicated. 
And so when we're approaching 

285
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,000
how we write our artefacts, 
whether it's governance 

286
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,000
documents, our project plans, 
our terms of reference, whatever

287
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,400
it might be, I think sometimes 
there's a tendency to think that

288
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,960
we need to write more or we need
to we need to create more to 

289
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,600
justify the work. 
And that's sometimes not true. 

290
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,760
Actually, less is more and you 
so, so getting people to think 

291
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,680
about that and making sure that 
that's something they live and 

292
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,560
breathe by when they're creating
material throughout the life of 

293
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,200
the programme. 
But but as early as possible 

294
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,720
goes along later, making people 
feel comfortable that that less 

295
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,680
is more. 
And we can simplify success by 

296
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,360
kind of following that, that 
guidance. 

297
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,360
I think that's a practical thing
people can do. 

298
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,400
I think that the other piece 
from a behavioural perspective 

299
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,120
is, you know, I have no shame in
asking people to explain things 

300
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,160
like I am like, like, like I'm 
like, I'm a child. 

301
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,720
Sometimes the, the more simple 
you can make things, the easier 

302
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,599
it is. 
And there is no, there is no 

303
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:10,640
silly question. 
Often if you're thinking it, 

304
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,319
someone else is probably 
thinking that as well. 

305
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:15,040
So the, the rule is there are no
silly questions. 

306
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,160
Ask if you don't understand, 
because if you don't, we're not 

307
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,599
going to make progress and, and 
making that acceptable and 

308
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,880
making people understand that 
there shouldn't be any social 

309
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,599
fear in saying I don't 
understand. 

310
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:28,160
It's it's a powerful thing to to
breed simplicity. 

311
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,040
Thank you. 
That sort of taps into this 

312
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,480
psychological safety, which is a
bit of a hot, hot topic within 

313
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,040
project management and allowing 
people, giving people the 

314
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,480
freedom to ask those questions. 
Because I was thinking what the 

315
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,920
barriers are to simplicity. 
And one of them is the fear of 

316
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,160
looking as though you don't know
what you're talking about or 

317
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,600
there's a lot of jargon in 
project management. 

318
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,320
And there's a fear that if you 
keep things simple, that you'll 

319
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,960
perhaps not as expert as you 
ought to be. 

320
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,240
You don't sound as so how how 
you think you should sound is 

321
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,240
that is that is that valid, 
Mike? 

322
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,960
I, I think it's absolutely valid
and I think is everyone's got a 

323
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,000
part to play in that. 
So as if you're a, you know, 

324
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,120
leader, senior responsible, only
if you're a sponsor, you can 

325
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,280
kind of set the tone for that 
sort of thing. 

326
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,320
You know, so making sure, making
sure people understand that the 

327
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,160
idea of psychological safety, 
that there's no deaf questions 

328
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,280
and, and actually in a way 
that's, that's encouraged and 

329
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,760
you can be honest yourself. 
I mean, years, years ago, I, one

330
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,000
of the things I did was I was a 
programme director of a 

331
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,280
renewable energy programme and I
said to the the team at the 

332
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,360
beginning, if you, if you're 
thinking you've, I'm an expert 

333
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,800
on renewable energy technology, 
you've you'll be sadly 

334
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,640
disappointed because I, because 
I'm not, I'm, you know, I've got

335
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,880
a running programmes, but I'm 
not a kind of technological 

336
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,200
expert. 
So, you know, to Nathan's point 

337
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,840
before, give me the really kind 
of Noddy explanation for all of 

338
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,120
these things. 
So I understand, you know, how 

339
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:01,280
they work. 
I think it's that sort of thing 

340
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,440
is really important and that so 
people feel able to just ask 

341
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,120
those questions because quite 
often it's the person who asks 

342
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,040
the really kind of, you know, 
simple question that gets to the

343
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,280
heart of the matter. 
Thanks, Mike. 

344
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,920
Actually, I'd like to ask both 
of you if you could give any 

345
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,280
practical examples of simplicity
and action through a project or 

346
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,600
programme. 
Whereas it's a sore thing or 

347
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,720
it's a bigger thing, perhaps 
it's part of the turn around of 

348
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,840
a project. 
But Mike, is there anything that

349
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,400
you could share with us? 
So I can share a relatively 

350
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,360
recent example. 
So I'm the sponsor of a large 

351
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,200
complex project and, you know, 
we regularly kind of reviewing 

352
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,040
the finances of that project and
you can end up being sent these 

353
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,760
voluminous spreadsheets with all
this data in and all these 

354
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,480
different variables. 
And I suppose I said to the team

355
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,400
I what I'd like to see is a 
financial summary for this 

356
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,960
project on a single slide that 
covers its entire life with the 

357
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,040
main, you know, items of 
expenditure and. 

358
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,720
That's the level I wanted to tap
because I just kept finding that

359
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,760
we were going into such levels 
of detail. 

360
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,120
And I know, and people need to 
do that. 

361
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:16,880
I get that that's part of 
people's jobs, but they were 

362
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,080
going into such levels of detail
that we were, you know, people 

363
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:23,920
were getting lost. 
And yeah, we had a had a 

364
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,280
situation where forecasts were 
changing quite substantially and

365
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,720
it felt like we hadn't seen it 
coming. 

366
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,120
And I, my view of why we hadn't 
seen it coming was because we 

367
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:37,480
were getting, we were just in 
far too much detail, too much 

368
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,640
complexity. 
So if we just kept it simple, 

369
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,120
that would have made a big 
difference. 

370
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,280
So now on a monthly basis at the
project board, we just have a, a

371
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,360
single slide which shows the, 
and this is a project that's 

372
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:53,280
running for 10 plus years and 
costing 10s of millions of 

373
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,160
pounds. 
And so, and it's just kept, it's

374
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,280
just made it so much simpler. 
So hopefully that useful 

375
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,680
example. 
Yeah, that is and something that

376
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,480
touches on another massive 
topic, which is data and AI. 

377
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,960
And there's going to, there's 
more data available to people 

378
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,560
than ever before working on a 
project. 

379
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:18,200
And also then the added 
complication of AI is it, is it 

380
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,120
making it harder then to deliver
simplicity or to think things 

381
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:28,280
through simply, do you think? 
I don't think so because I think

382
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,640
it's, but then it's for us as 
project professionals to, to not

383
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,960
let that happen. 
So there's something about AI 

384
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,120
can be hugely useful. 
We've used it recently to do a 

385
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:42,400
kind of full drains up review of
all our risks. 

386
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,040
So obviously it can churn 
through a lot of data quite 

387
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,880
quickly. 
But so I think he asks different

388
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,960
questions of the project 
professionals and the project 

389
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,360
managers. 
So in the past you may have 

390
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,120
spent a lot of time yourself 
going through all that data, 

391
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,040
generating the kind of reports, 
etcetera. 

392
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,680
But it's shifting us into a 
position now where our job is to

393
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,560
interpret and, and kind of 
analyse the, the kind of data. 

394
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,560
And that's where I think having 
that mindset of simplicity can 

395
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,080
really help, you know, what are 
the 3-4 big things that are 

396
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,360
really going to get in the way 
of us delivering this thing? 

397
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,960
Not the 300 items on the risk 
register. 

398
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,280
Nathan, what are your thoughts 
on this and and can you give any

399
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,520
kind of practical examples of 
where you've managed to make 

400
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,960
things simpler in a project and 
and that it delivered benefits 

401
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,160
to you? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

402
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:38,720
So we've had a recent or fairly 
recent programme which I I would

403
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,520
describe as a as a as a complex 
programme, but actually 

404
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,080
operating in an even more 
complicated environment. 

405
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,560
What I mean by that is lots of 
different stakeholders across 

406
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,680
multiple functions compounding 
actually how difficult it is to 

407
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,080
deliver. 
And within that, that brought a 

408
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,280
lot of challenge with people 
either understanding or 

409
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:10,680
misunderstanding who was 
accountable and empowered to 

410
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,040
make decisions. 
And so something may be agreed 

411
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,200
somewhere in a different meeting
which would then be undone in a 

412
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,760
different meeting etcetera, 
etcetera. 

413
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,360
And we need to simplify that 
and, and one of the things or 

414
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:27,120
the tools that we really focused
on was focusing on what the 

415
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,160
decision rights are at 
simplifying the decision rights 

416
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,280
across the the programme so that
people had clarity on specifics 

417
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,000
on what was within their gift to
make a decision on. 

418
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,600
So actually bringing it back to 
life and saying you are 

419
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,440
responsible for this decision, 
you are not responsible for this

420
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,080
decision, etcetera, etcetera. 
And that helped us do two 

421
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,560
things. 
It helped simplify that chain 

422
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,880
and removed some of that either 
confusion or differing of 

423
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,440
opinions and it empowered people
and allowed people to go faster 

424
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,840
because we had a much simpler 
approach. 

425
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:11,480
So that for me was that was a 
good example of how you need to 

426
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,120
bring simplicity in that case to
the environment that you're 

427
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,560
operating in for that type of 
programme. 

428
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,880
Thanks. 
So it seems that simplicity goes

429
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,040
in hand, hand in hand with 
clarity. 

430
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,720
Then when it comes to working on
projects, I'd like to ask both 

431
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,120
of you what what your final 
pieces of advice or any kind of 

432
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,960
food for thought that you'd like
to pass on to get to get people 

433
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,480
towards on the path towards 
greater simplicity in projects? 

434
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,360
Mike. 
I suppose my one piece of advice

435
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:49,560
to people would be to to have 
the courage to, to kind of go 

436
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,120
for it. 
So learning to say, you know, no

437
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,440
to scope creep, no to over 
engineering and kind of yes to 

438
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,680
simplicity because especially in
the early stages of projects, I 

439
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,960
think there so much of what 
we've talked about you can get 

440
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,960
on top of early in projects. 
And if you put the groundwork in

441
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,720
a bit, the example that Nathan 
was just giving before about the

442
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,320
kind of decision rights kind of 
matrix, I think is really 

443
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,320
helpful. 
And so that takes a bit of time.

444
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,360
And so, so sometimes you may 
have stakeholders breathing down

445
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,640
your neck going, come on, just 
get on with the thing. 

446
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,200
Whereas actually investing in a 
bit of simplicity and clarity 

447
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,760
upfront just helps you go so 
much faster later. 

448
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,680
So yeah, have courage and I 
would say. 

449
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,240
Thank you. 
And Nathan, any final pieces of 

450
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,000
advice you pass on? 
You know, I'd really reemphasize

451
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,200
that. 
Focus on the culture and the 

452
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,680
behaviour for simplicity. 
As soon as possible or as early 

453
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:51,960
as possible, Getting that right 
will flow through to everything 

454
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,040
that you do, whether it's 
process, tools, and I think I 

455
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,560
mentioned earlier around 
thinking about whether what 

456
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,600
we're doing is, is adding 
clarity or value. 

457
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,680
And if it's not, is it, is it 
really helping us simplify how 

458
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,760
we're trying to deliver? 
But if you get the culture 

459
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,600
right, you know your elite 
complexity for breakfasts. 

460
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,800
So for me that that would be the
thing to focus on. 

461
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,760
I I just want to thank both of 
you for this really interesting 

462
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,800
conversation on simplicity. 
Thank you. 

463
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:20,880
Thanks very much for having me, 
great to talk. 

464
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760
Thanks to Nathan and Mike for 
joining us and to you for 

465
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,160
listening to the APM Podcast. 
Don't forget to look out for 

466
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,160
more episodes or to rating 
reviews. 

467
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,440
Wherever you get your podcasts. 
We'd welcome you to get in touch

468
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,800
with your comments, feedback and
suggestions by emailing us at 

469
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,400
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
Spotify and YouTube users, 

470
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,360
please do also leave us your 
comments. 

471
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,640
This podcast has been brought to
you by APM, the chartered body 

472
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,840
for the project profession. 
For more information on APM, 

473
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,120
visit apm.org.uk.