1 00:00:08,550 --> 00:00:11,800 Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:11,810 --> 00:00:14,810 the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm 3 00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:18,500 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:23,020 In this podcast, I speak to Dame Inga Beale, portfolio director 5 00:00:23,030 --> 00:00:25,960 and former CEO of global insurance giant Lloyds of 6 00:00:25,970 --> 00:00:28,180 London. He also happened to be a PM's 7 00:00:28,190 --> 00:00:31,240 keynote speaker at its 2023 Women in Project Management 8 00:00:31,250 --> 00:00:34,050 conference. Working in the City from the 9 00:00:34,060 --> 00:00:38,600 1980s, Inga became Lloyd's of London's first ever female CEO 10 00:00:38,670 --> 00:00:41,050 after an unconventional thoughts of her career. 11 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:44,230 She left school at 16 and later dropped out of university and 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,210 for the 1st 12 years of her career had little ambition apart 13 00:00:47,220 --> 00:00:50,190 from earning a living and having the freedom to pursue her love 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,810 of rowing and rugby. Her advice to project 15 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:56,510 professionals is to aim high. Wherever you started your career 16 00:00:56,580 --> 00:00:59,190 and give time to you, you can do it. 17 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,740 So how does she make it to the top of UK PLC and what advice 18 00:01:02,750 --> 00:01:05,069 would she give to those who are looking to get ahead in their 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:11,020 own project careers? Welcome Inga. 20 00:01:11,030 --> 00:01:14,780 Thank you for your time today. Really nice to see you again. 21 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:17,890 Well, thank you. It's good to be here with you. 22 00:01:18,380 --> 00:01:21,570 I'm just going to dive in there and ask my first question, which 23 00:01:21,580 --> 00:01:25,850 would be What's your advice on making the right career 24 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:28,330 decisions for people who are looking to get ahead? 25 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,250 It's all going to be about the individual. 26 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:36,490 There is no hard and fast rule, and it will depend a little bit 27 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:38,970 on your personality, for a start. 28 00:01:38,980 --> 00:01:44,020 So I was someone who never planned out my career when I 29 00:01:44,030 --> 00:01:47,090 started in the world of work, I didn't think when in fact I 30 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:50,690 wasn't ambitious at all at the beginning in sport was much more 31 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:54,030 important to me. So I didn't sort of after my 32 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:57,110 education set out in the world of work, thinking I'm going to 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,940 get to be the CEO of something just sort of happened. 34 00:02:00,950 --> 00:02:03,850 And I I think the most important thing for me was that I wasn't 35 00:02:03,860 --> 00:02:08,470 so worried about it because I I had a certain belief that 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,430 opportunities would come along. And that's how I went about 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,500 making my career just opportunities coming and me, I 38 00:02:16,510 --> 00:02:20,350 suppose saying yes to them, having the courage to say yes. 39 00:02:20,420 --> 00:02:24,610 But other people need that security of sort of planning 40 00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:27,850 things out. And I think particularly it 41 00:02:27,860 --> 00:02:31,780 depends if you've got other people who depend on you, you've 42 00:02:31,790 --> 00:02:34,670 got dependents you might need to look after, you've got family 43 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,680 members that influence things. I was a relatively free person 44 00:02:39,770 --> 00:02:43,890 you like and therefore that enabled me to be, I don't know, 45 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:46,480 to go around the world and take different roles on. 46 00:02:46,690 --> 00:02:51,140 Whereas if you've got certain things that are relatively fit 47 00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:54,980 and things that you wanted to in your life that are going to 48 00:02:54,990 --> 00:02:57,240 constrict you in some way, you may need to think a little bit 49 00:02:57,250 --> 00:02:59,660 more about your career and plan it out. 50 00:02:59,670 --> 00:03:03,580 And I know people who sit down with their partner, their life 51 00:03:03,590 --> 00:03:07,640 partner every year and review their plans for the future and 52 00:03:07,650 --> 00:03:10,800 that means they are into planning mode. 53 00:03:11,270 --> 00:03:14,980 So some people will need that. But the for me, The thing is 54 00:03:14,990 --> 00:03:18,220 when you start out on your career you can do all sorts of 55 00:03:18,230 --> 00:03:20,900 things. It doesn't necessarily influence 56 00:03:20,910 --> 00:03:23,340 what you're going to end up doing at the sort of when you're 57 00:03:23,350 --> 00:03:26,150 more senior. So don't be too scared about the 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,370 future and and sort of go with it. 59 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,090 It'll it'll happen for you if you let it. 60 00:03:32,130 --> 00:03:35,020 What makes you think, Ohh? That seems like an interesting 61 00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:39,160 opportunity if you reflect back. Should you take an opportunity 62 00:03:39,170 --> 00:03:43,000 even though it's the right thing to do, but perhaps you don't 63 00:03:43,010 --> 00:03:47,420 feel that excited about it? Or should you be guided by a 64 00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:49,940 sense of Ohh? Yeah, that sounds exciting. 65 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:56,990 To me, I'm very led by my gut. So with everything feels good 66 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,170 and exciting, I go for it. Now the odd time where I have 67 00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:08,400 not done that, I bounced the role off of a mental of a mentor 68 00:04:08,470 --> 00:04:12,880 or someone I felt I could trust and speak to, and then they made 69 00:04:12,890 --> 00:04:16,000 me or gave me insights to look at things in a different way. 70 00:04:16,010 --> 00:04:18,959 So for instance, once I was offered a role that was very 71 00:04:18,970 --> 00:04:24,580 much a sideways role, I felt and I had actually wanted the job 1 72 00:04:24,690 --> 00:04:28,160 notch above. But this mental said, take it. 73 00:04:28,170 --> 00:04:29,510 It's in May. It's still an amazing 74 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,800 opportunity. You're going into a new area, 75 00:04:31,990 --> 00:04:35,060 you're going to have lots of challenges on your hand, lots of 76 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:38,280 new things to learn, and life never stays the same. 77 00:04:38,290 --> 00:04:41,660 Things are always changing. And sure enough, 18 months into 78 00:04:41,670 --> 00:04:45,610 that role, I then got offered the role of bar and and I got 79 00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:47,130 that. And that was a great piece of 80 00:04:47,140 --> 00:04:49,620 advice. And that was not my gut telling 81 00:04:49,630 --> 00:04:52,930 me that, But usually I go with what feels absolutely right. 82 00:04:52,940 --> 00:04:57,730 And if I'm still not convinced, I write a list, pros and cons, 83 00:04:58,060 --> 00:05:02,310 and then I usually score them and maybe ranking them. 84 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,910 And you know, you can have quite a complex matrix if you want. 85 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,890 And then when the score comes out and tells you whether you 86 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:10,580 should say yes or no and it doesn't feel right, the answer 87 00:05:10,590 --> 00:05:12,790 that is telling you doesn't feel right, then do the opposite. 88 00:05:12,860 --> 00:05:18,810 In other words, you kind of use some logic and some support, but 89 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,070 it's got to come down to how does it make you feel at the end 90 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,430 of the day. If you're offered an opportunity 91 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,690 unexpectedly, which can often happen and be a new role or or a 92 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:33,950 much bigger project that you might be offered to work on, 93 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:40,150 what if your gut instinct is saying, no, this is too big, 94 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,870 this is too much of A leap, What should you do in that situation? 95 00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:47,660 Well, the scariest opportunities are usually the ones that you 96 00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:51,100 should absolutely take. Again, in my experience, the 97 00:05:51,110 --> 00:05:54,240 scarier the role, the, the bigger it's, the bigger, it 98 00:05:54,250 --> 00:05:57,580 seemed to me, is sort of way too big for my experience. 99 00:05:58,290 --> 00:06:02,120 I went and I took it. It turned out to be the best 100 00:06:02,130 --> 00:06:04,640 thing ever, and that's so often the case. 101 00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:08,260 If you're a very risk averse person, that can be a really 102 00:06:08,270 --> 00:06:11,630 tough call to me. I'm going to take that role. 103 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,510 But really, believe me, the scariest thing is usually the 104 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,730 best to take. Something I've been reading 105 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:24,120 around a lot recently is the idea that you can be very 106 00:06:24,220 --> 00:06:27,790 effective in your job. You keep your head down, you put 107 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,110 in the hours, you're very proficient, but you're still not 108 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,390 being offered the opportunities out there and and I guess the 109 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,430 missing piece then is that you're just not getting noticed, 110 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,850 or you're not getting noticed by the right people. 111 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,210 What advice have you got around actually the, I guess, 112 00:06:45,220 --> 00:06:47,430 networking or the way you present yourself? 113 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,990 How do you get yourself known out there with the right people? 114 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,490 Yeah. And that's when I talk about the 115 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:57,580 pie model, which I learned at one of my employers many, many 116 00:06:57,590 --> 00:07:01,620 years ago, because I was sitting there performing well. 117 00:07:01,630 --> 00:07:04,900 So I thought, you know, head down doing a really good job. 118 00:07:04,970 --> 00:07:09,130 I was really conscientious, keen, you know, doing all that. 119 00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:11,920 I didn't seem to get noticed and it was always seemed to be 120 00:07:11,930 --> 00:07:14,260 someone else who got the opportunity. 121 00:07:15,010 --> 00:07:19,360 Then I learned about the pie model, which is P i.e. for π, P 122 00:07:19,370 --> 00:07:21,380 for performance. That first bit that we're 123 00:07:21,390 --> 00:07:24,040 usually very good at, we're doing a really good job, we're 124 00:07:24,050 --> 00:07:27,100 working hard, we're delivering. Then you've got to think of the 125 00:07:27,110 --> 00:07:31,120 eye, which is your image, and that's important to understand 126 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:33,700 how other people perceive you and how you come across to 127 00:07:33,710 --> 00:07:36,360 others. And usually we don't know how we 128 00:07:36,370 --> 00:07:38,870 come across. When the older you get and the 129 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,180 more you get honest feedback and rarely do we get honest feedback 130 00:07:43,190 --> 00:07:45,840 in the workplace, then you get a better understanding of how 131 00:07:45,850 --> 00:07:48,700 you're perceived and and how people view you. 132 00:07:48,770 --> 00:07:53,000 But when we're less experienced, less senior, we often actually 133 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:55,630 don't know really how we're perceived and seemed. 134 00:07:55,820 --> 00:08:01,000 So make sure that you understand what image you're giving, what 135 00:08:01,010 --> 00:08:05,290 your image is from others, how they perceive you, and see if 136 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:07,750 that is the one you want to portray. 137 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,650 Now you can't be an you can't be different to who you really are 138 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:15,750 at your core, but you can get little pieces of feedback that 139 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,690 helps shape you, particularly if you want to go up the career 140 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:20,510 ladder. It could be a style of 141 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,090 communication, a style of facial expressions that you because 142 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:27,390 they've let me down in the past, you know that sort of give away 143 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,570 your true feelings and to be warned about things like that. 144 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:33,120 But this needs really honest feedback. 145 00:08:33,130 --> 00:08:35,990 That means you've got to have people around you, your manager, 146 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,010 your line manager, giving you open and honest feedback, really 147 00:08:39,020 --> 00:08:42,429 tough thing. And then the last letter, the E 148 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,010 is the exposure and that's when you've got to seek out the right 149 00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:48,170 exposure. This could be obviously 150 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:50,630 attending events where you get to network. 151 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,460 And always if you do, make sure you meet people you don't know 152 00:08:53,470 --> 00:08:55,310 because so often you fall into the trap. 153 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,290 You go to an event, Ohh you just meet all the people you already 154 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:02,540 know and it takes effort to go and say hello and introduce 155 00:09:02,550 --> 00:09:05,360 yourself to other people. If you do that, I don't know if 156 00:09:05,370 --> 00:09:07,390 you do that anymore. I mean, you must know the huge 157 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,580 number of people, but if you go into a room and you're going to 158 00:09:10,590 --> 00:09:11,860 put yourself out there, you made a decision. 159 00:09:11,870 --> 00:09:14,300 I'm going to meet three new people at this event. 160 00:09:14,430 --> 00:09:17,640 What actually, what do you say when you go up to someone? 161 00:09:17,650 --> 00:09:19,270 What is? Have you got any tips? 162 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:24,920 I usually have a question ready or something like that, because 163 00:09:25,090 --> 00:09:28,790 the last thing you want to do is go up, introduce yourself and 164 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,500 then start blabbering on about who you are because generally 165 00:09:31,510 --> 00:09:33,100 they're not interested. They're much more interested in 166 00:09:33,110 --> 00:09:35,940 themselves usually. And so it's good to have a sort 167 00:09:35,950 --> 00:09:38,660 of opening question if you've just, if you were at a 168 00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:42,280 conference and you've just seen a presentation or something, ask 169 00:09:42,290 --> 00:09:45,520 what they thought about the presentation or a speaker you 170 00:09:45,530 --> 00:09:47,740 know. It's really a good way of 171 00:09:47,890 --> 00:09:52,700 starting a conversation is to ask them and not just start 172 00:09:52,850 --> 00:09:57,260 giving a you know your CV to them, Not the best way. 173 00:09:57,470 --> 00:10:00,720 And if you and you can ask the same question to all the people 174 00:10:00,730 --> 00:10:03,090 you plan if you're meeting, if you touch your goal to meet 175 00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:05,220 three, go and do it. You can ask the same question 176 00:10:05,230 --> 00:10:06,830 providing they're not in the group. 177 00:10:06,970 --> 00:10:10,100 But the other things about your network are that you should 178 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,560 actively, you know, volunteer for things that are going 179 00:10:14,570 --> 00:10:17,300 outside of your normal work day. So if you're involved in this 180 00:10:17,310 --> 00:10:21,860 specific project, try and get involved in your firm or somehow 181 00:10:21,870 --> 00:10:24,780 in some other work to extend your network a bit. 182 00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:30,020 Volunteer for things just so that you get known by others 183 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:32,740 because you're usually being noticed even when you don't 184 00:10:32,750 --> 00:10:35,520 notice. So just you even though you 185 00:10:35,530 --> 00:10:37,310 don't notice that they're noticing you, you know it's a 186 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,810 really and so just be aware of that. 187 00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:43,190 And then other things if you've got a line manager ask them to 188 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,990 give you opportunities to meet certain people step in for them 189 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,350 at a meeting or you know there help them to give you 190 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,250 introductions to others. So it it's you've got to think 191 00:10:55,260 --> 00:10:57,970 about it though this is, I mean it's got it's got to be you 192 00:10:57,980 --> 00:11:01,170 thinking and proactively doing something about it. 193 00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:06,260 We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the 194 00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:09,540 project profession. When you become an APM member, 195 00:11:09,550 --> 00:11:12,100 you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an 196 00:11:12,110 --> 00:11:15,640 impact delivering better projects with better outcomes. 197 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:19,070 Plus you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support 198 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,400 your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you 199 00:11:22,410 --> 00:11:27,560 reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk, Because when 200 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:30,210 projects succeed, society benefits. 201 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:36,710 You've started out in a very male dominated industry and it 202 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,530 probably is still very male dominated. 203 00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:44,290 The project profession is very gender balanced early on, but 204 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:48,260 like many industries that diminishes higher up the ladder 205 00:11:48,270 --> 00:11:50,730 you go and that will change that tree over time. 206 00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:53,210 But there are still pockets of plate. 207 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:57,530 There are still places where women are not there in greater 208 00:11:57,540 --> 00:11:59,690 numbers as men. I'm thinking of construction, 209 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:05,820 for example, and having spoken to quite a few of those women, 210 00:12:05,830 --> 00:12:09,540 there are still problems that you'd hoped would not exist 211 00:12:09,550 --> 00:12:11,760 anymore. What advice would you give to 212 00:12:11,770 --> 00:12:14,430 women who are in that situation? I'm not talking about anything 213 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,240 that needs to become an HR matter or anything like that. 214 00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:20,120 It's more the kind of prevailing culture is perhaps not the one 215 00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:23,410 that you feel accepted in necessarily. 216 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:30,310 Well, the culture that is really clashing with you, you cannot 217 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,210 work in for too long. I mean you could do a few years 218 00:12:33,940 --> 00:12:39,640 but if it shows no signs of changing and you really feel 219 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:44,470 uncomfortable in it, you really should get out and that it's not 220 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,090 an instant thing because culture change takes years. 221 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:50,490 But if you are somewhere and you just feel it's not going to move 222 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:52,610 in the right direction, eventually you should get out 223 00:12:52,620 --> 00:12:55,230 because it eats away at you inside otherwise and it's not 224 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:56,360 healthy. So. 225 00:12:56,370 --> 00:12:59,870 So that's one thing but if you are in this very male dominated 226 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,360 environment and actually for anyone who's in an environment 227 00:13:02,370 --> 00:13:05,030 full of people not like them, so you're the different one on the 228 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,150 stands out, it's it's a really tough thing. 229 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,790 Now that's that was my early days. 230 00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:11,190 So they were they were my early days. 231 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,960 They were just like that. I started in the City, London, 232 00:13:14,410 --> 00:13:18,780 in the financial district, working in a very male dominated 233 00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:24,260 environment and the I was in an open plan office with 35 of us, 234 00:13:24,270 --> 00:13:27,280 34 men and me. And that's how I had my almost 235 00:13:27,290 --> 00:13:30,150 my first ten years. And that was a really tough 236 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,630 thing and I took up behaviours to fit in. 237 00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:36,550 So I adopted male behaviours and I became one of the lads. 238 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:41,750 I would not recommend it, I regret that I did it but it was 239 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,350 my way of hoping at the time. But now I I just think the world 240 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,370 has changed a lot and it's important to stick to who you 241 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:56,270 are. So be outspoken but don't always 242 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,350 pick battles on everything because you want to be seen as 243 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,960 someone who can work with others who are different to you, which 244 00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:05,730 is what you want and you. That's a skill in itself that 245 00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:08,640 you've got to learn to be able to work with any anyone who's 246 00:14:08,650 --> 00:14:10,720 different to you. You know you might have 247 00:14:10,730 --> 00:14:12,770 disagreements all the time, but it's not that you just go 248 00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:15,030 through your work life disagreeing all the time. 249 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:18,210 You just have have to do it. But I would try and encourage 250 00:14:18,220 --> 00:14:23,250 you not to conform to still believe in yourself but try not 251 00:14:23,260 --> 00:14:25,890 to get angry. And sometimes you've just got to 252 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:30,200 let things go above over your head and just and just, you 253 00:14:30,210 --> 00:14:33,170 know, life's too short. I'm not going to get anywhere. 254 00:14:33,230 --> 00:14:34,870 I'm not going to bother to challenge that. 255 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,190 I'm much stronger than that. I'm much better than that. 256 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,230 It can be tough. I, I, I know I I went through it 257 00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:44,110 and I did actually one day not cope with it. 258 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,910 And I decided to leave. And I I walked out of the office 259 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,380 and I I went travelling for a year all times when it becomes 260 00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:54,390 much. And you, that's what I mean. 261 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,730 You've got to go with what you know, what you feel. 262 00:14:57,460 --> 00:15:02,290 What about when you step up from being a manager, project manager 263 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:07,350 of a team to taking your first leadership role, especially for 264 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,950 project work? So what are the considerations 265 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,470 you should bear in mind, and what should you leave behind 266 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,950 about being a manager? And what should you be focusing 267 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,410 on developing as a leader? Well, leadership, One key thing 268 00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:24,450 is you'll be amazed how much time you have to spend on 269 00:15:24,460 --> 00:15:27,030 people. If you are someone that cannot 270 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,870 let go the things you like doing, which were your 271 00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:34,190 portrayed, right? And you love to manage 272 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,330 spreadsheets or whatever it is, you know, you've got to start 273 00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:40,470 leaving that stuff behind and you've actually got to focus on 274 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,470 the people. So as as CEO, it's basically all 275 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,890 about people, right? You have to make decisions, you 276 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:47,210 have to have the courage to make decisions. 277 00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:49,790 But my goodness, it's all about managing people. 278 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,670 It's people, people, people. So the the more senior you get 279 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,730 as a leader, the more you spend on people, inspiring them, 280 00:15:56,740 --> 00:15:59,800 motivating them, understanding them, caring for them, all of 281 00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:01,660 these things. And that's something that people 282 00:16:01,670 --> 00:16:05,280 don't often understand. And if they some people I've 283 00:16:05,290 --> 00:16:08,130 known, I've actually sort of promoted and then they've come 284 00:16:08,140 --> 00:16:11,040 to me and said do you know what? I don't like this. 285 00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:14,900 I actually want to be a core subject matter expert and that's 286 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:18,620 what I want to do is people aspect isn't for me. 287 00:16:18,670 --> 00:16:21,090 So that's something that that that you really have to think 288 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,840 about and also leaders have to be you have to have the courage. 289 00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:28,940 You've got to have the courage to make some calls you really do 290 00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:33,740 and you've got to be that's can feel uncomfortable, can't be a 291 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:36,440 friend all the time. You might have to make some 292 00:16:36,450 --> 00:16:40,000 tough calls and then you get respected for making those tough 293 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:43,360 calls and being clear. And it's really important to be 294 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:47,620 clear on communication, but also to listen to successful leaders 295 00:16:47,630 --> 00:16:51,440 listen a lot as well. It's not all about telling you 296 00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:55,210 have to listen, but it is important to be strategic. 297 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,410 So that means going outside of your core area of responsibility 298 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,109 though you, you know, I grew up as an underwriter, I I was, I 299 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,609 was knowing everything there was about ensuring risks around the 300 00:17:08,619 --> 00:17:10,250 world. You know, earthquake risks. 301 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,930 Suddenly when you get to be a leader, you've got to be a bit 302 00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:16,569 more strategic and usually you have some joint accountability 303 00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:19,500 with other leaders in the organisation and suddenly you've 304 00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:22,930 got to have an interest in other people's areas and in key 305 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:26,290 decisions that will take the whole organisation forward. 306 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,710 And so that means a slightly different, not such operational 307 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,990 view of things and being quite strategic and that's a real 308 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,050 leadership skill because leaders do a lot of strategy. 309 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,390 Again, you it was interesting when I was the CEO of a company 310 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,110 in Switzerland and it was subject to a hostile takeover. 311 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,950 The deal went through and I was exiting and then the guy who was 312 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,050 going to be taking over as managing that unit because it 313 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:56,570 then became a unit of a massive company, He asked for all my 314 00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:59,530 files on things. I said, but I don't have any 315 00:17:59,540 --> 00:18:01,470 files. I've been a CEO. 316 00:18:01,620 --> 00:18:04,290 If it's a legal matter, the general counsel has that. 317 00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:06,910 If it's the people matter, the HR director has it. 318 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,850 If it's a commercial, so on and so on. 319 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,470 You don't have fights, you don't do things in the same way. 320 00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:16,630 You're always thinking strategically where to take this 321 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,510 and all of that and it's and that's what you learn as you go 322 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,670 up the leadership ranks that it's very different. 323 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,290 You doing a a job that's very very task focused. 324 00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:32,120 Another question I want to ask you about being a leader was 325 00:18:32,130 --> 00:18:36,160 around how do you stay true to yourself as a leader? 326 00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:39,820 Because we have expectations of what a leader should be like, 327 00:18:39,870 --> 00:18:41,880 and perhaps predecessor was a certain way. 328 00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:46,440 So how do you establish yourself as the leader you want to be and 329 00:18:46,450 --> 00:18:50,320 who you are? And leadership in an 330 00:18:50,330 --> 00:18:55,230 organisation can vary with time because you may need at a 331 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,920 particular time a certain type of leader and another time 332 00:18:58,990 --> 00:19:03,360 another type of leader, but also by organisation. 333 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:07,300 And therefore the the cultural fit for you as a leader in an 334 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:11,990 organisation is important. If they want somebody who maybe 335 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,910 operates in a certain style that isn't your style, it's the wrong 336 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,730 place. I remember arriving at Lloyds 337 00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:22,480 and within a year my the first piece of serious feedback I got 338 00:19:22,490 --> 00:19:26,510 was that I wasn't authoritative enough around the board table 339 00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:30,160 because they had been used to very much what I would have 340 00:19:30,170 --> 00:19:31,740 said, a traditional style of leadership. 341 00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:35,140 You know, the boss bumps the table says this is what we're 342 00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:38,530 going to do, go and do it. Whereas naturally I'm a much 343 00:19:38,540 --> 00:19:42,380 more inclusive, facilitative leader, whereas I always want 344 00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:44,970 the team to be part of the decision making. 345 00:19:45,020 --> 00:19:48,930 If we can't come to a consensus, then I I was always happy to 346 00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:52,610 make the call at the end of the day, the decision, but I always 347 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:56,050 like to include others. So I was told that my style 348 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,190 should change and I actually had to think long and hard about 349 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,580 what was I going to do? Was I going to? 350 00:20:01,380 --> 00:20:05,490 Change to meet what the chair thought was the right leadership 351 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,130 style, or was I going to stick to my own? 352 00:20:07,260 --> 00:20:10,670 I decided to stick to my own style because a there was no way 353 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,490 I could behave like that naturally and be a didn't think 354 00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:16,590 it was what they needed and it was sort of to me seemed a bit 355 00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:20,500 outdated. And but it's important because 356 00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:24,100 if you only get recognised for certain behaviours and traits 357 00:20:24,190 --> 00:20:27,440 and they're not the ones that you have naturally probably the 358 00:20:27,450 --> 00:20:30,540 one place to be. But he does these days need to 359 00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:33,020 show vulnerability. They need to have really good 360 00:20:33,030 --> 00:20:35,340 listening skills, They need to be visionary, they need to be 361 00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:39,780 inspirational and they need to be courageous, which are fairly 362 00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:43,490 broad topics really. And your actual style of 363 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:45,730 leadership, you can make your own. 364 00:20:45,740 --> 00:20:47,710 And don't be afraid of making it your own. 365 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,500 How did it feel when someone when they told you that you had 366 00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:53,660 the wrong style, that your style didn't fit in? 367 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:56,430 That's quite a shocking thing to hear. 368 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,140 I mean, how did you feel? Well, it is, particularly when 369 00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:03,040 you've already been working for over 30 years, successful and 370 00:21:03,050 --> 00:21:07,270 you've got the IT is a bit of a wake up call, but but This is 371 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,350 why it's so important to never get so arrogant that you think 372 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,580 you know the right way of doing things. 373 00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:15,830 You have to be open to listen. And I did listen and I did 374 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,350 consider the feedback and I thought no, for what we need to 375 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:24,550 achieve here, that style is not going to work. 376 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,010 It didn't work with my predecessor. 377 00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:30,410 The market rejected that style. They didn't go along with the 378 00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:32,300 modernization. It failed. 379 00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:34,990 They lost a lot of money. So I said no, I'm going to try 380 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,370 mine and I have the confidence to to go ahead with my. 381 00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:39,550 Style. I have a feeling that you're 382 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,120 probably very good at handling difficult conversations, whether 383 00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:44,320 you're on the receiving end or actually having being the one 384 00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:46,730 that has to do the difficult talking. 385 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:51,310 But project professionals often find themselves having to have 386 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,310 needing to have difficult conversations. 387 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,150 Perhaps people on their team, but perhaps stakeholders as 388 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,210 well, or or might need to deliver bad news. 389 00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:04,120 And I wondered if you know from your expertise, is there 390 00:22:04,130 --> 00:22:06,640 anything you've learned? Any good tips or advice you'd 391 00:22:06,650 --> 00:22:09,450 pass on that which you wish you'd know when you were having 392 00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:11,360 that first difficult conversation? 393 00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:18,190 Used to be a bit too reactive, you know, I used to really just 394 00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:23,010 rather than take a breath and think and listen to what I was 395 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,250 thought I heard, you know, I would be that I would respond 396 00:22:26,260 --> 00:22:29,630 immediately. I learnt to change that way. 397 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:32,470 I am a naturally impatient person, so I'm not always 398 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,150 perfect at this. I can still sort of interrupt 399 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,010 when people are still saying something to me or asking me a 400 00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:40,810 question. But I really try hard not to do 401 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:44,570 that because it you need to really think about what somebody 402 00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:48,770 said to you rather than just leaping in the defensive. 403 00:22:48,820 --> 00:22:51,620 But you don't want to wait too long before you respond cause 404 00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:55,400 otherwise you're not being responsive enough. 405 00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:59,910 So it's a difficult balance, but just always I suppose try and 406 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,300 have an open mind and always think about it as a learning 407 00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:06,410 opportunity, getting feedback. And if you're giving feedback I 408 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:10,310 always think it's good to kind of approach it with a question, 409 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,430 sort of ask the person how they thought something went before 410 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,310 you dive in and give them your view of how they went. 411 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,070 It just sort of opens up the conversation in a different way. 412 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,820 Advice. So my final question is, is 413 00:23:22,830 --> 00:23:26,290 something you touched on at the Women in project Management 414 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:30,040 conference which is about looking after yourself and there 415 00:23:30,050 --> 00:23:33,370 came a point where you stayed with me that you were kind of 416 00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:36,310 sneaking back into the office after everyone else had left or 417 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,650 coming back in the weekends. And it's if you've been given an 418 00:23:39,660 --> 00:23:43,030 exciting job and trusted to do something important that means a 419 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,390 lot to you then and and perhaps you don't have great commitments 420 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,250 outside of work. It's natural to be drawn into it 421 00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:54,410 and spend an incredible amount of time that almost border 422 00:23:54,420 --> 00:23:58,370 borders on not workaholism. But it's very tempting to spend 423 00:23:58,380 --> 00:24:01,150 a lot of your time at work and being absorbed in that 424 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,510 completely. What have you learnt about that 425 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,550 and how do you, how do you make sure that you're looking after 426 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,990 yourself, that you can perform your best at work? 427 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,470 And you will go through various phases in your career. 428 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,910 Because I did go through that phase of being an absolute 429 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,370 workaholic. I couldn't stop it. 430 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:21,230 It was I I was just so excited and I didn't have commitments 431 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,320 outside. And there'll be other times of 432 00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:25,320 your life where you do have other commitments and you have 433 00:24:25,330 --> 00:24:28,600 to make a call to say actually my weekends are precious and I'm 434 00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:32,590 not going to work at weekends. And I made that call and I stuck 435 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,250 to it. And it's important that you 436 00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:36,560 communicate that to others, if particularly if you're the 437 00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:38,960 leader of the team, that you explain that. 438 00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:44,500 But the the trick to, I suppose not not overworking is make sure 439 00:24:44,510 --> 00:24:46,680 you work with the best people. And if you've got, if you're 440 00:24:46,690 --> 00:24:49,140 hiring the best, if you're hiring people, make sure you 441 00:24:49,150 --> 00:24:51,500 hire the best. That's the that's the way that 442 00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:55,260 you it means that you're not filling the gaps of all the 443 00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:57,830 other people. Women fall into this a lot. 444 00:24:58,470 --> 00:25:01,600 They're always filling the gaps because they want the team to be 445 00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:04,060 successful, because we're naturally like that. 446 00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:08,060 We want team success much more than usually individual success. 447 00:25:08,780 --> 00:25:11,710 We was filling the gaps of people who maybe aren't really 448 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,370 pulling their weight or doing a good job. 449 00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:17,510 Try not to do that, try not to fall into the trap of filling 450 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,150 the gap and make sure that you are really working with the best 451 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,640 people and hiring the best people. 452 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,950 Any loss? Final thoughts you want to pass 453 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,990 on to listeners? Or do you feel like we've 454 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,330 covered everything? I think we've covered 455 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:33,450 everything. I I would just say particularly 456 00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:37,850 for those who are uncertain about their future career, just 457 00:25:37,860 --> 00:25:41,350 don't think too much and over plan it. 458 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,610 Life goes through all twists and turns and just make sure that 459 00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:49,350 you do the best thing to open up opportunities and then take the 460 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:53,230 scariest one that comes along. You're telling a bunch of 461 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,430 project professionals to take risks. 462 00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,470 That's wise advice. OK, well, thank you very much 463 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,270 for your time. It's been a pleasure to speak. 464 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,770 To you thank you. Thank you for including me. 465 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,590 Thanks again to Inga for joining us and to you for listening to 466 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,450 the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for 467 00:26:16,460 --> 00:26:19,230 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 468 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,870 podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 469 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,550 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 470 00:26:25,620 --> 00:26:31,810 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 471 00:26:31,820 --> 00:26:35,300 you by APM, the Chartered Body for the project profession. 472 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:39,520 For more information on APM, visit to apm.org.uk.