Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
In this podcast, I speak to Dame Inga Beale, portfolio director
and former CEO of global insurance giant Lloyds of
London. He also happened to be a PM's
keynote speaker at its 2023 Women in Project Management
conference. Working in the City from the
1980s, Inga became Lloyd's of London's first ever female CEO
after an unconventional thoughts of her career.
She left school at 16 and later dropped out of university and
for the 1st 12 years of her career had little ambition apart
from earning a living and having the freedom to pursue her love
of rowing and rugby. Her advice to project
professionals is to aim high. Wherever you started your career
and give time to you, you can do it.
So how does she make it to the top of UK PLC and what advice
would she give to those who are looking to get ahead in their
own project careers? Welcome Inga.
Thank you for your time today. Really nice to see you again.
Well, thank you. It's good to be here with you.
I'm just going to dive in there and ask my first question, which
would be What's your advice on making the right career
decisions for people who are looking to get ahead?
It's all going to be about the individual.
There is no hard and fast rule, and it will depend a little bit
on your personality, for a start.
So I was someone who never planned out my career when I
started in the world of work, I didn't think when in fact I
wasn't ambitious at all at the beginning in sport was much more
important to me. So I didn't sort of after my
education set out in the world of work, thinking I'm going to
get to be the CEO of something just sort of happened.
And I I think the most important thing for me was that I wasn't
so worried about it because I I had a certain belief that
opportunities would come along. And that's how I went about
making my career just opportunities coming and me, I
suppose saying yes to them, having the courage to say yes.
But other people need that security of sort of planning
things out. And I think particularly it
depends if you've got other people who depend on you, you've
got dependents you might need to look after, you've got family
members that influence things. I was a relatively free person
you like and therefore that enabled me to be, I don't know,
to go around the world and take different roles on.
Whereas if you've got certain things that are relatively fit
and things that you wanted to in your life that are going to
constrict you in some way, you may need to think a little bit
more about your career and plan it out.
And I know people who sit down with their partner, their life
partner every year and review their plans for the future and
that means they are into planning mode.
So some people will need that. But the for me, The thing is
when you start out on your career you can do all sorts of
things. It doesn't necessarily influence
what you're going to end up doing at the sort of when you're
more senior. So don't be too scared about the
future and and sort of go with it.
It'll it'll happen for you if you let it.
What makes you think, Ohh? That seems like an interesting
opportunity if you reflect back. Should you take an opportunity
even though it's the right thing to do, but perhaps you don't
feel that excited about it? Or should you be guided by a
sense of Ohh? Yeah, that sounds exciting.
To me, I'm very led by my gut. So with everything feels good
and exciting, I go for it. Now the odd time where I have
not done that, I bounced the role off of a mental of a mentor
or someone I felt I could trust and speak to, and then they made
me or gave me insights to look at things in a different way.
So for instance, once I was offered a role that was very
much a sideways role, I felt and I had actually wanted the job 1
notch above. But this mental said, take it.
It's in May. It's still an amazing
opportunity. You're going into a new area,
you're going to have lots of challenges on your hand, lots of
new things to learn, and life never stays the same.
Things are always changing. And sure enough, 18 months into
that role, I then got offered the role of bar and and I got
that. And that was a great piece of
advice. And that was not my gut telling
me that, But usually I go with what feels absolutely right.
And if I'm still not convinced, I write a list, pros and cons,
and then I usually score them and maybe ranking them.
And you know, you can have quite a complex matrix if you want.
And then when the score comes out and tells you whether you
should say yes or no and it doesn't feel right, the answer
that is telling you doesn't feel right, then do the opposite.
In other words, you kind of use some logic and some support, but
it's got to come down to how does it make you feel at the end
of the day. If you're offered an opportunity
unexpectedly, which can often happen and be a new role or or a
much bigger project that you might be offered to work on,
what if your gut instinct is saying, no, this is too big,
this is too much of A leap, What should you do in that situation?
Well, the scariest opportunities are usually the ones that you
should absolutely take. Again, in my experience, the
scarier the role, the, the bigger it's, the bigger, it
seemed to me, is sort of way too big for my experience.
I went and I took it. It turned out to be the best
thing ever, and that's so often the case.
If you're a very risk averse person, that can be a really
tough call to me. I'm going to take that role.
But really, believe me, the scariest thing is usually the
best to take. Something I've been reading
around a lot recently is the idea that you can be very
effective in your job. You keep your head down, you put
in the hours, you're very proficient, but you're still not
being offered the opportunities out there and and I guess the
missing piece then is that you're just not getting noticed,
or you're not getting noticed by the right people.
What advice have you got around actually the, I guess,
networking or the way you present yourself?
How do you get yourself known out there with the right people?
Yeah. And that's when I talk about the
pie model, which I learned at one of my employers many, many
years ago, because I was sitting there performing well.
So I thought, you know, head down doing a really good job.
I was really conscientious, keen, you know, doing all that.
I didn't seem to get noticed and it was always seemed to be
someone else who got the opportunity.
Then I learned about the pie model, which is P i.e. for π, P
for performance. That first bit that we're
usually very good at, we're doing a really good job, we're
working hard, we're delivering. Then you've got to think of the
eye, which is your image, and that's important to understand
how other people perceive you and how you come across to
others. And usually we don't know how we
come across. When the older you get and the
more you get honest feedback and rarely do we get honest feedback
in the workplace, then you get a better understanding of how
you're perceived and and how people view you.
But when we're less experienced, less senior, we often actually
don't know really how we're perceived and seemed.
So make sure that you understand what image you're giving, what
your image is from others, how they perceive you, and see if
that is the one you want to portray.
Now you can't be an you can't be different to who you really are
at your core, but you can get little pieces of feedback that
helps shape you, particularly if you want to go up the career
ladder. It could be a style of
communication, a style of facial expressions that you because
they've let me down in the past, you know that sort of give away
your true feelings and to be warned about things like that.
But this needs really honest feedback.
That means you've got to have people around you, your manager,
your line manager, giving you open and honest feedback, really
tough thing. And then the last letter, the E
is the exposure and that's when you've got to seek out the right
exposure. This could be obviously
attending events where you get to network.
And always if you do, make sure you meet people you don't know
because so often you fall into the trap.
You go to an event, Ohh you just meet all the people you already
know and it takes effort to go and say hello and introduce
yourself to other people. If you do that, I don't know if
you do that anymore. I mean, you must know the huge
number of people, but if you go into a room and you're going to
put yourself out there, you made a decision.
I'm going to meet three new people at this event.
What actually, what do you say when you go up to someone?
What is? Have you got any tips?
I usually have a question ready or something like that, because
the last thing you want to do is go up, introduce yourself and
then start blabbering on about who you are because generally
they're not interested. They're much more interested in
themselves usually. And so it's good to have a sort
of opening question if you've just, if you were at a
conference and you've just seen a presentation or something, ask
what they thought about the presentation or a speaker you
know. It's really a good way of
starting a conversation is to ask them and not just start
giving a you know your CV to them, Not the best way.
And if you and you can ask the same question to all the people
you plan if you're meeting, if you touch your goal to meet
three, go and do it. You can ask the same question
providing they're not in the group.
But the other things about your network are that you should
actively, you know, volunteer for things that are going
outside of your normal work day. So if you're involved in this
specific project, try and get involved in your firm or somehow
in some other work to extend your network a bit.
Volunteer for things just so that you get known by others
because you're usually being noticed even when you don't
notice. So just you even though you
don't notice that they're noticing you, you know it's a
really and so just be aware of that.
And then other things if you've got a line manager ask them to
give you opportunities to meet certain people step in for them
at a meeting or you know there help them to give you
introductions to others. So it it's you've got to think
about it though this is, I mean it's got it's got to be you
thinking and proactively doing something about it.
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You've started out in a very male dominated industry and it
probably is still very male dominated.
The project profession is very gender balanced early on, but
like many industries that diminishes higher up the ladder
you go and that will change that tree over time.
But there are still pockets of plate.
There are still places where women are not there in greater
numbers as men. I'm thinking of construction,
for example, and having spoken to quite a few of those women,
there are still problems that you'd hoped would not exist
anymore. What advice would you give to
women who are in that situation? I'm not talking about anything
that needs to become an HR matter or anything like that.
It's more the kind of prevailing culture is perhaps not the one
that you feel accepted in necessarily.
Well, the culture that is really clashing with you, you cannot
work in for too long. I mean you could do a few years
but if it shows no signs of changing and you really feel
uncomfortable in it, you really should get out and that it's not
an instant thing because culture change takes years.
But if you are somewhere and you just feel it's not going to move
in the right direction, eventually you should get out
because it eats away at you inside otherwise and it's not
healthy. So.
So that's one thing but if you are in this very male dominated
environment and actually for anyone who's in an environment
full of people not like them, so you're the different one on the
stands out, it's it's a really tough thing.
Now that's that was my early days.
So they were they were my early days.
They were just like that. I started in the City, London,
in the financial district, working in a very male dominated
environment and the I was in an open plan office with 35 of us,
34 men and me. And that's how I had my almost
my first ten years. And that was a really tough
thing and I took up behaviours to fit in.
So I adopted male behaviours and I became one of the lads.
I would not recommend it, I regret that I did it but it was
my way of hoping at the time. But now I I just think the world
has changed a lot and it's important to stick to who you
are. So be outspoken but don't always
pick battles on everything because you want to be seen as
someone who can work with others who are different to you, which
is what you want and you. That's a skill in itself that
you've got to learn to be able to work with any anyone who's
different to you. You know you might have
disagreements all the time, but it's not that you just go
through your work life disagreeing all the time.
You just have have to do it. But I would try and encourage
you not to conform to still believe in yourself but try not
to get angry. And sometimes you've just got to
let things go above over your head and just and just, you
know, life's too short. I'm not going to get anywhere.
I'm not going to bother to challenge that.
I'm much stronger than that. I'm much better than that.
It can be tough. I, I, I know I I went through it
and I did actually one day not cope with it.
And I decided to leave. And I I walked out of the office
and I I went travelling for a year all times when it becomes
much. And you, that's what I mean.
You've got to go with what you know, what you feel.
What about when you step up from being a manager, project manager
of a team to taking your first leadership role, especially for
project work? So what are the considerations
you should bear in mind, and what should you leave behind
about being a manager? And what should you be focusing
on developing as a leader? Well, leadership, One key thing
is you'll be amazed how much time you have to spend on
people. If you are someone that cannot
let go the things you like doing, which were your
portrayed, right? And you love to manage
spreadsheets or whatever it is, you know, you've got to start
leaving that stuff behind and you've actually got to focus on
the people. So as as CEO, it's basically all
about people, right? You have to make decisions, you
have to have the courage to make decisions.
But my goodness, it's all about managing people.
It's people, people, people. So the the more senior you get
as a leader, the more you spend on people, inspiring them,
motivating them, understanding them, caring for them, all of
these things. And that's something that people
don't often understand. And if they some people I've
known, I've actually sort of promoted and then they've come
to me and said do you know what? I don't like this.
I actually want to be a core subject matter expert and that's
what I want to do is people aspect isn't for me.
So that's something that that that you really have to think
about and also leaders have to be you have to have the courage.
You've got to have the courage to make some calls you really do
and you've got to be that's can feel uncomfortable, can't be a
friend all the time. You might have to make some
tough calls and then you get respected for making those tough
calls and being clear. And it's really important to be
clear on communication, but also to listen to successful leaders
listen a lot as well. It's not all about telling you
have to listen, but it is important to be strategic.
So that means going outside of your core area of responsibility
though you, you know, I grew up as an underwriter, I I was, I
was knowing everything there was about ensuring risks around the
world. You know, earthquake risks.
Suddenly when you get to be a leader, you've got to be a bit
more strategic and usually you have some joint accountability
with other leaders in the organisation and suddenly you've
got to have an interest in other people's areas and in key
decisions that will take the whole organisation forward.
And so that means a slightly different, not such operational
view of things and being quite strategic and that's a real
leadership skill because leaders do a lot of strategy.
Again, you it was interesting when I was the CEO of a company
in Switzerland and it was subject to a hostile takeover.
The deal went through and I was exiting and then the guy who was
going to be taking over as managing that unit because it
then became a unit of a massive company, He asked for all my
files on things. I said, but I don't have any
files. I've been a CEO.
If it's a legal matter, the general counsel has that.
If it's the people matter, the HR director has it.
If it's a commercial, so on and so on.
You don't have fights, you don't do things in the same way.
You're always thinking strategically where to take this
and all of that and it's and that's what you learn as you go
up the leadership ranks that it's very different.
You doing a a job that's very very task focused.
Another question I want to ask you about being a leader was
around how do you stay true to yourself as a leader?
Because we have expectations of what a leader should be like,
and perhaps predecessor was a certain way.
So how do you establish yourself as the leader you want to be and
who you are? And leadership in an
organisation can vary with time because you may need at a
particular time a certain type of leader and another time
another type of leader, but also by organisation.
And therefore the the cultural fit for you as a leader in an
organisation is important. If they want somebody who maybe
operates in a certain style that isn't your style, it's the wrong
place. I remember arriving at Lloyds
and within a year my the first piece of serious feedback I got
was that I wasn't authoritative enough around the board table
because they had been used to very much what I would have
said, a traditional style of leadership.
You know, the boss bumps the table says this is what we're
going to do, go and do it. Whereas naturally I'm a much
more inclusive, facilitative leader, whereas I always want
the team to be part of the decision making.
If we can't come to a consensus, then I I was always happy to
make the call at the end of the day, the decision, but I always
like to include others. So I was told that my style
should change and I actually had to think long and hard about
what was I going to do? Was I going to?
Change to meet what the chair thought was the right leadership
style, or was I going to stick to my own?
I decided to stick to my own style because a there was no way
I could behave like that naturally and be a didn't think
it was what they needed and it was sort of to me seemed a bit
outdated. And but it's important because
if you only get recognised for certain behaviours and traits
and they're not the ones that you have naturally probably the
one place to be. But he does these days need to
show vulnerability. They need to have really good
listening skills, They need to be visionary, they need to be
inspirational and they need to be courageous, which are fairly
broad topics really. And your actual style of
leadership, you can make your own.
And don't be afraid of making it your own.
How did it feel when someone when they told you that you had
the wrong style, that your style didn't fit in?
That's quite a shocking thing to hear.
I mean, how did you feel? Well, it is, particularly when
you've already been working for over 30 years, successful and
you've got the IT is a bit of a wake up call, but but This is
why it's so important to never get so arrogant that you think
you know the right way of doing things.
You have to be open to listen. And I did listen and I did
consider the feedback and I thought no, for what we need to
achieve here, that style is not going to work.
It didn't work with my predecessor.
The market rejected that style. They didn't go along with the
modernization. It failed.
They lost a lot of money. So I said no, I'm going to try
mine and I have the confidence to to go ahead with my.
Style. I have a feeling that you're
probably very good at handling difficult conversations, whether
you're on the receiving end or actually having being the one
that has to do the difficult talking.
But project professionals often find themselves having to have
needing to have difficult conversations.
Perhaps people on their team, but perhaps stakeholders as
well, or or might need to deliver bad news.
And I wondered if you know from your expertise, is there
anything you've learned? Any good tips or advice you'd
pass on that which you wish you'd know when you were having
that first difficult conversation?
Used to be a bit too reactive, you know, I used to really just
rather than take a breath and think and listen to what I was
thought I heard, you know, I would be that I would respond
immediately. I learnt to change that way.
I am a naturally impatient person, so I'm not always
perfect at this. I can still sort of interrupt
when people are still saying something to me or asking me a
question. But I really try hard not to do
that because it you need to really think about what somebody
said to you rather than just leaping in the defensive.
But you don't want to wait too long before you respond cause
otherwise you're not being responsive enough.
So it's a difficult balance, but just always I suppose try and
have an open mind and always think about it as a learning
opportunity, getting feedback. And if you're giving feedback I
always think it's good to kind of approach it with a question,
sort of ask the person how they thought something went before
you dive in and give them your view of how they went.
It just sort of opens up the conversation in a different way.
Advice. So my final question is, is
something you touched on at the Women in project Management
conference which is about looking after yourself and there
came a point where you stayed with me that you were kind of
sneaking back into the office after everyone else had left or
coming back in the weekends. And it's if you've been given an
exciting job and trusted to do something important that means a
lot to you then and and perhaps you don't have great commitments
outside of work. It's natural to be drawn into it
and spend an incredible amount of time that almost border
borders on not workaholism. But it's very tempting to spend
a lot of your time at work and being absorbed in that
completely. What have you learnt about that
and how do you, how do you make sure that you're looking after
yourself, that you can perform your best at work?
And you will go through various phases in your career.
Because I did go through that phase of being an absolute
workaholic. I couldn't stop it.
It was I I was just so excited and I didn't have commitments
outside. And there'll be other times of
your life where you do have other commitments and you have
to make a call to say actually my weekends are precious and I'm
not going to work at weekends. And I made that call and I stuck
to it. And it's important that you
communicate that to others, if particularly if you're the
leader of the team, that you explain that.
But the the trick to, I suppose not not overworking is make sure
you work with the best people. And if you've got, if you're
hiring the best, if you're hiring people, make sure you
hire the best. That's the that's the way that
you it means that you're not filling the gaps of all the
other people. Women fall into this a lot.
They're always filling the gaps because they want the team to be
successful, because we're naturally like that.
We want team success much more than usually individual success.
We was filling the gaps of people who maybe aren't really
pulling their weight or doing a good job.
Try not to do that, try not to fall into the trap of filling
the gap and make sure that you are really working with the best
people and hiring the best people.
Any loss? Final thoughts you want to pass
on to listeners? Or do you feel like we've
covered everything? I think we've covered
everything. I I would just say particularly
for those who are uncertain about their future career, just
don't think too much and over plan it.
Life goes through all twists and turns and just make sure that
you do the best thing to open up opportunities and then take the
scariest one that comes along. You're telling a bunch of
project professionals to take risks.
That's wise advice. OK, well, thank you very much
for your time. It's been a pleasure to speak.
To you thank you. Thank you for including me.
Thanks again to Inga for joining us and to you for listening to
the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for
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