Welcome to the OEM podcast. I'm Emma Devita, the editor of
APM's Project Journal and your host.
Today's podcast is all about storytelling and why it's a
great skill to master as a project professional and how to
go about doing it well. Here to give us her expertise is
Zoe Arden, author of a new book called Story Centred Leadership,
Crafting Cultures of Change, which is published by Routledge.
She is a Fellow at the University of Cambridge
Institute for Sustainability Leadership and was previously
Director of Communications at BT, as well as European MD of
global communications firm Webber Shandwick, among other
executive roles. So, Zoe, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me, Emma. It's a pleasure.
Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about
your interest in working storytelling and how does that
come about? Sure.
Well, you mentioned there that I've got a background in
communications and and then I thought I would go in house to
BT retail as you mentioned where I thought the grass might be
greener. And what really fascinated me
was that in every role that I went to, often the conversation
ended up being, you know, how do we communicate this complicated
project, whatever it might be, to stakeholders in a way that
they care and want to be part of making it successful.
And the more I heard this as I moved into, to different fields,
I then went into sustainability and leadership.
And again, it's like, how do we, how do we make this, this topic
meaningful to others? So there are inspired, engaged,
motivated and want to be part of making it happen.
And that's when I really realised that actually it's all
about stories and sense making and making the complicated
simple enough for people to want to take action.
Tell us about your book. Why?
What do you argue in your book and and why did you want to
write it? So yeah, here it is.
I actually only have one copy left.
Just to show that's good. And I wrote it because having I,
I've spent years doing leadership and storytelling
trainings with business people around the world.
And what I realised was that, you know, people could leave
those sessions with a narrative that they could use to engage
their most important stakeholders and that actually
people found it quite difficult. And that I had a model that
worked and I really wanted to be able to share it more than just
the people that I reached through my online and face to
face training sessions and workshops and coaching.
And I just passionately believe that actually stories can help
us rediscover our own sense of agency.
Now, often we think, oh, you know, if only I was the boss or
if only, you know, I, I could had the formal power to do
something about this. And actually how we communicate
and how we connect with others really can make a massive
difference both in our personal lives and in our professional
lives. And I wanted to be able to share
that that knowledge and, and get people thinking.
Actually, if I just practise this a little bit, if I use
these tools, I could do this in a way that would make a massive
difference for me and my context.
Do you think everyone can be a storyteller?
Because not everyone is. I mean, it is.
It is something partly that you're born with.
Some people just can tell a good anecdote, can't they?
But we'll get into what is storytelling when it relates to
projects in a minute. But do you feel as though
everyone can improve at this and that there are ways to do that
well? Yeah, I think absolutely
everyone can improve how they tell stories and how they engage
and motivate others. And it is hard work.
I mean, if we think about the best storytellers, it's stand up
comedians and they, they literally spend years working on
their material and seeing the feedback that they're getting
from audiences and then sort of iterating it and, and changing
it. And I think, you know, most of
us, you know, if we're, if we're project professionals or we're
skilled at what we do, we, we, we're almost burdened with the
curse of knowledge. And the thing we find most
difficult is to sort of elevate what we do up to a simple
message that other people can understand.
I heard AI had a great expression yesterday when I was
on a webinar, which was, you know, when we're trying to
communicate what we do to others, it's simplicity at the
top and complicated at the bottom.
And the problem is that we tend to like dish up the complicated
and you can see like people's eyes start to close over.
So yes, I absolutely believe it's something that we can all
get much, much better at. I don't think that many people
are are born with it. Yes, you don't actually have to
be like a Jack Dee or a Sarah Pascoe to be a great storyteller
in in projects. And it I was glad to hear that
you were talking about simplicity and clarity, which is
something that OPM have been talking about a lot recently.
So I would like to ask you then, why do project professionals
need to be adept storytellers? What are the benefits it brings
them to their projects? Well.
I think project professionals are great examples of people who
are working with complexity. You know, they're trying to
navigate a lot of change. So actually, how can you come up
with a, a sort of shared vision that other people can tap into
something that, you know, it really sort of activates the
hearts and minds for people so that they want to work alongside
with you, alongside you to make that possible.
You know, their project managers are trying to bring together
many different elements, multiple stakeholders.
And I think having a, an appreciation for the multiple
perspectives that you're working with, keeping it human and
authentic. Now avoid also avoiding
oversimplified stories as well. These are always that actually
project professionals can, can bring others alongside, help
them to achieve, you know, their goals.
So it's. Kind of motivating A-Team but
also galvanising everyone behind the ultimate outcomes of what's
going to be delivered. Yeah, I think can you, can you
create a shared vision that people can buy into,
particularly when it doesn't exist yet?
I'm I'm really taking the time to understand the various
stakeholders that you're working with.
What's in it for them? Why should they care?
And that requires the agility it requires walking in our
stakeholders shoes a little bit and recognising the what might,
might motivate Emma on a project might be different to what might
motivate Zoe on a project. So doing a little bit of that
heavy lifting initially and, and just spending 5 minutes ahead of
each conversation thinking, OK, you know, what's what's going on
for this person? What's their biggest problem
that I can help solve? Can be transformational and and
how you can make a project move shift and get where you want it
to get to. Thank you.
What about on the career side of things?
Because I'm sure there'll be lots of ambitious people
listening. Know full well that being a good
communicator and being able to clearly communicate about a
project, whatever the stage you're at and the benefits it
will deliver is key. But how does storytelling fit in
to that? I mean, I think.
Where storytelling fits into that is we've all been in the
situation where we're thrown into a meeting and we've got 2
minutes to explain a very, very complicated project to people
who are not in the weeds of delivering it.
And I think storytelling techniques can help us come up
with clarity and sort of really concise sticky messages that
people in that meeting will take away with them.
So I, I talk about what's your takeaway message and why is it
important? And if you can clarify that,
that really I think can help make a difference with your
career. We all know what it's like when
when we're sort of suddenly found ourselves in front of our
boss or our boss's boss who we get very little FaceTime with.
Actually, if you can say something with them that lands
that they take away, you will have made a lasting impact.
And those are those are storytelling techniques.
It's being prepared, recognising that people have shorter and
shorter attention spans. So actually often it's less
words, more impact. So thinking about what's going
to move people, because often it the facts and the data don't
move people. Now actually, it's the stories,
it's a little anecdote that you might have about the project
that really brings it alive for the person that you're talking
to. Yeah, you're right.
And actually thinking about your own narrative as a professional.
So the the kind of career journey you're on and how to
tell this about story and how people perceive you and then
spotting opportunity. So it's about very succinctly
but authentically telling people where you're at and what you're
interested and where you want to go.
Is that I hadn't thought about that before.
The kind of story of your career and where you might want to go.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the the one aspect
of stories that's really important to be aware of is
simple stories and self limiting stories.
What do you mean by that? So for example, I work with many
sort of mid career people and they might have a simple story,
which is if I start to talk about my work and my success and
why I want to get to the next level, that's going to make me
pushy. That's going to make me look
pushy. No, actually.
And and that stops you acting. So, so sort of getting rid of
some of those self limiting stories that we have about
ourselves. And the second thing is I often
spend time with people thinking about what's the future story
you want to tell about yourself? No, because we're so busy in the
moment. Actually, if we could just lift
our heads up and go, where do I want to be in a couple of years
time and what's what is that story that I want to tell?
So just having a little bit of consciousness and practising
thinking, you know, with a sense of purpose, you know, what are
my superpowers and how can I illustrate those with pithy
little examples? And often we, we need other
people to come in and advocate for us.
And we can do that with anecdotes from others.
You know, I was talking to ex client, ex customer, you know,
ex community member, and they said this about the project.
And that can be a way of elevating your involvement in
the project without even saying those words.
So it's like, wow, that's really incredible.
You got through those challenges, you know, by
building better relationships there or solving that problem
you're using. You're using a third party
anecdote, which I always talk about anecdotes as like the
superfood of stories. Yeah.
I agree. It's like a 62nd anecdote Will
kind of pivot your headline message and maybe it's like, you
know, I'm the written I'm the right person to be project
managing our next our next big client project.
Do you know what I'm thinking? Because you mustn't get stuck
telling the same anecdotes over and over again, because then
you're that person that over Rolls Royce, say, oh, not that
story again. So it's important to mix it up.
Yeah. And I think that is, I mean,
it's another important aspect that I talk about in in the
book, which is getting outside our own echo chamber and taking
the time to have conversations with stakeholders who might be
on the periphery. If we're just talking to people
like ourselves, we are going to be just telling the same story
again and again. So it's kind of like I talk
about going from an echo chamber, moving beyond an ego
chamber, which is like, Emma, great job.
Yes, absolutely. That's how we're going to do it
to a bigger kind of eco chamber. And often our bosses are starved
of those broader perspectives and we can bring those in.
So you're right. Yeah.
Different different perspectives representing different different
voices can illuminate different aspects of a of a a a complex
project. Thanks Sarah, I do.
I do like the idea of an ego chamber though.
You know what, Emma, we all need an ego chamber from time to
time, don't we? I agree, I agree times we need
people that sort of pat us on the back and go, well done you.
We do. We absolutely do need.
We need champions and challenges in in our lives.
Too right? I actually wanted to go right
down to basics and ask you what is storytelling exactly and what
isn't it? Because if it's not a term
you're used to hearing at work, you can think at one end.
It's like stories you might read to a child before bed to the
opposite end, which is a very cynical kind of in the thick of
it, PR PR ring. Not not actually telling the
truth about things, just blindly trying to get a message across.
Which people obviously see as inauthentic or I've, I've, I
would like really like to ask you about that.
So what is what makes for good storytelling, and what is it
definitely not? Yeah, yeah, sure.
There's there's a lot packed into that.
And I just observed when you were like talking about PR, you
did a little raise of the eyebrow there.
And journalist, I think it's. Also worth acknowledging that
actually we are speaking volumes before we even open our mouths.
And like, you know, I can interpret, I'm making decisions,
judgements about what you're saying just with your language.
So just a note on that for people that spend a lot of time
being a teeny tiny little box on a team's call or a Zoom call,
Don't forget people will be looking at you for the energy
and intent that you're bringing. Do you care about this project?
But to move back to what storytelling is and what it's
not, Absolutely it's storytelling.
It's not fiction. It's not horror stories.
It's not about caricaturing stakeholders.
It's we tend to love heroes and villains.
And actually, if you know what I see a lot of in business is US
making other functions. Oh, if only procurement could
get their finger out. If only legal weren't such, you
know, party poopers. And particularly for like,
project professionals where you're working across multiple
disciplines. No, storytelling is not about
creating heroes and villains and caricaturing others and
dominating with our own perspective.
So that storytelling is very much about tuning into your
audience, listening for what matters, and sharing authentic,
truthful stories in your own language, not the corporate
wallpaper. And I, I like to think about
them as little packets of meaning making that can help you
accelerate what you're trying to achieve.
Because we are all wired for stories.
Our brains are actually filled with quite ancient wiring and
stories are how we make sense of what's going on in the world.
And they do motivate us in ways that sort of data doesn't.
What makes for a good story then?
How do you pick the right tone, the right line, the right words
for conveying fairly what it is you want to do with a project?
So I guess I'm asking you some advice on on telling a good
story. How do you what do you need to
think about when you're putting your narrative or your story
together? Is there any tips or techniques
you could share? Yeah, sure.
So I've got a, a sort of a, a circular model in the book which
goes from story listening to story living.
And a lot of people try and make miss out the first.
I mean, it's circular, but story listening is absolutely the most
essential element of creating stories that are going to help
you deliver on your projects and succeed.
And what do you mean by? That yeah.
What it? Means by is by starting, by
listening to the people that you're trying to influence, You
know, what is it that they care about?
Really digging into why your project is going to be important
for them. So it's walking in the shoes of
our stakeholders, seeing what the world looks like through
their eyes. And that's where our stories
start. So I think, you know, that's a,
that's a, a stage that we so often miss out on.
And I actually hear people go, I don't have the time to do that.
Well, you're never going to connect with the people that you
need to have on side if you don't have a sense of what
matters to them. So that's the most important
sort of stage I say about creating stories, which often
people overlook. And it's how do we build them
collaboratively? How do we get feedback from
others? So go from story listening to
story building. You know, some of the essential
ingredients we talked about, like what is it that people take
away having had a conversation with us?
What are the examples that that might really turn the lights on
for them? Now maybe it's an image now
maybe it's a picture of, of I don't know if they're, if
they're, if they're wired that way, maybe a Gantt chart is
going to light up their, their lives or, you know, an image of
what, what the project's going to look like when it's
completed. Or maybe it is a data point
that's wrapped up in meaning if if a lot of people are hugely
motivated by data. So start get a sense of what's
going to move them. And then it's actually about
story shaping. How do we practise and get
feedback from others like in our team?
Do we think this is going to land with Emma?
You know her better than I do. And then how do we work
collaboratively, collaboratively with others in our organisation?
So we're actually sharing stories because, you know,
stories are a great way of sharing failures and experiments
as well as successes. And we can learn so much from
what doesn't work. So that's so those are some of
the, the key elements really. And I mean, I've maybe made it
sound a little bit complicated there, but I've got a very
simple framework in the book, a story framework.
And I actually use that to write every single chapter of the
book. And I use that for whether it's
like creating 70,000 words to a 5 minute conversation and it's
just providing A framework, a little bit of discipline,
starting with what are people going to take away having had a
conversation with me? And that's the starting point of
your stories. That's really valuable advice.
I wanted to pick up on telling talking about failure.
So project professionals like if they have the chance to spend
time going through lessons learned, So what can they take
from previous projects that might work?
But there's a lot around the discussion at the moment about
how psychological safety is important, the ability for
people to actually be honest and feel that they will be listened
to even if they're saying something challenging.
But I wondered, any advice on how to frame talking about
something that went wrong? So failure, if you want to
present that in a way kind of as professional as possible, as
something that is a is a valuable experience.
So that's completely different to telling the story of a new
project and getting people motivated and excited about it
and perhaps trying to win over stakeholders with the impact of
that project. So there's a lot of talk as well
about social impact of projects and the benefits that they
deliver and being able to tell the story about that.
But on the flip side, do you have any advice on how to talk
about failures or things went wrong that you might actually
personally find quite difficult to talk about and you might feel
a bit scared about kind of, you know, blame culture and that
kind of stuff? Yeah.
So I do, I spend a lot of time working with sort of mid, mid
and senior career professionals on, on their leadership
development. And, and that includes how, how,
how do we create thriving teams? How do we create environments
where people feel safe to, to question and challenge.
And so I spent quite a lot of time thinking about how do we
tell new stories about things like conflict and candour.
And I think as as project professionals that you have a
real opportunity to start by creating a shared vision.
So if you've got like a shared vision, shared vision of where
the project's going that people buy into, then when as obviously
happens, you know, you kind of get missteps and mistakes along
the way, you're still aiming for that.
And I think it's how do we reframe those difficult
conversations so that their task and project focused are not sort
of personally focused. And I think if we're bringing
that intent, that makes it easier to have a conversation
about what went wrong because it's like, OK, what can we learn
from this? You know, we've got multiple
threads here. Maybe we're doing it like this
for the first time. Everyone is always doing their
best. I remember one of the first
bosses I ever had said, is it cock up or conspiracy?
No, most of the time it's cock up.
But, you know, people have got their hearts in the right place.
So. And I think the most important
place to start is with questions.
And how can you start with questions that are actually the
the sort of energy for the questions is we want to do a
great project together. No, the energy for the questions
is not about sort of pointing a finger or assigning blame.
So, you know, that's something I spend a lot of time for
questions like, you know, what are we missing?
What are we not seeing? What could we do differently?
And I think sort of the neutrality of our questions, but
having them in a firm foundation of everyone wants the project to
succeed is a great place to start.
And actually, if there's someone who doesn't want to put the
project to seek succeed, yes, it's an uncomfortable
conversation, but call that out now and and maybe it's, you
know, there's a deeper, deeper element that will create a
fruitful, rich discussion in itself.
So I think I would really encourage people to sort of step
into those uncomfortable conversations, but with the very
clear framing that it's about ultimately the success of the
project and everyone being able to do a great job.
And what I'm talking to you and thinking about storytelling, the
more I see that everything could be related back to storytelling.
I mean welcome. To my world, Emma.
We've talked a little bit, well you've shared the kind of
broader framework about how to create a good story or ace an
effective story. Could you give us some tips or
advice on the skills you need, the actual art of telling a
story as a person, as an individual?
How do you go about delivering the story?
Is there anything you've learnt through or many years kind of
working in this field that that people might be able to use to
put into practise? Yeah.
So, so a couple of things. I mean, the first thing I'd say
is, you know, I often start my sessions getting people to share
what I call stories of passion, you know, which kind of like I
make people go, oh, what's that? And I think practise sharing
stories about things that you're passionate about outside work
now that builds that fluent fluency.
And you know, what it feels like in your body when you're telling
a story, whether it's a family occasion or with friends, or
maybe you're in a team and you're telling a story about
your latest, you know, win. We feel that sort of energy, we
feel the connection. We've got the sort of fluidity
in our bodies. So I think have that starting
point of what it feels like either to personally share a
great story or receive a great story and like notice what's
going on. You know, we're relaxed, we're
smiling, there's eye contact. You know, we're, we're kind of
like our bodies are loose. You know, we're not got our
hands jammed into our, our pockets or out, you know, arms
tightly folded. So firstly, get that I kind of
call, call that, you know, warming up our story muscles.
And that's a great place to start because then we sometimes
notice that when we're in work, you know, we are all tight and
kind of PO faced and using jargon and acronyms and we're
like, well, I'm not doing that when I'm telling stories my
mates at the weekend. So firstly, you know, develop
like warm up your story muscles and, and, and start to seek,
seek out great stories and great storytellers because we can
learn so much from that. So, so that's a that's a great
starting point. You know, find some people to
that you that will give you honest feedback, which is
actually do. I got this, for example, when I
left, when I left Weber, I got a leaving card and it was lovely.
All my little kind of little, you know, idiosyncrasies were
highlighted and nice photos. And then there was a line in
there which said has been documented to say the words, you
know, 22 times in a minute. And it was absolutely horrified.
You know, these were my, these were my kind of filler, filler
words. And I even, I didn't even know
that I was saying them. So we all have little verbal or
visual ticks that we might be unaware of.
There's a horrible expression. We're all on the wrong side of
our own eyeballs. No so, so you can hold up a
mirror and go. Do you realise when you're
speaking you spend the whole time fiddling with your ear or
you're going like this with your mouth?
So find people who and that will give you honest, honest feedback
and be and be prepared to accept it.
That's the hard bit, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
So those would be two, two starting points that I would say
practise and ask others for feedback.
And actually the third one, I'd say Emma is most people do not
feel comfortable standing up and and talking in front of a room.
And sometimes it really, really helps to say no.
I'm, I'm quite nervous because this is a topic I really care
about. This project is important to me.
Now. Put yourself in the room.
Show other people that you care about this.
Sometimes if we say, you know, I'm a little bit nervous that
this, this project is an experiment.
We've not done it this way before.
That kind of, you know, personal commitment really makes the
difference. You know, we do this work
because we care and we care about the outcome.
And so actually showing that we care and saying that we care or
at the moment we're feeling a bit nervous is absolutely fine.
That's a really good point. I'm just thinking of a scenario
because project professionals often have to have difficult
conversations that might be with partners on the project or it
might be with stakeholders, people who don't want the
project to happen for whatever reason.
So I guess you don't you're allowed to say that we don't
have all the answers or I don't know how to phrase that really.
But if you're telling a story and you yourself have doubts
about story you're telling, how how do you deal with that in an
effective way? Because I think you're saying
just then about showing a bit of vulnerability because you
actually care about something. But also, how do you go about
telling the story of a project to people who might not
necessarily be on board with the project in a way that could
bring them round or just be more accepting of what's going on?
So there's a lot wrapped up in that.
So I think recognising that sometimes it's about clarity,
not certainty, you know, we might not have the route map
like all the detail, but as long as we can still kind of evolve
where we're going together, that can help.
Secondly, as you say, you know, people that aren't quite on
board actually having an honest conversation and thinking with
ourselves going, are am I the right person to try and convince
them? Maybe, for example, I don't know
if it's like a project in a residential area, maybe there
are other people who would be better tellers of this.
This story is another aspect. Sometimes we're just not the
right person. It might be someone else in our
team. It might be, you know, someone
in another part of the delivery of the project that is a better
communicator and persuader. Sometimes we need to play the
long game. You know, we're not going to get
them on side in one conversation.
Now recognise that your story might have multiple chapters and
we we're not going to nail it in this moment, however urgent it
is for us, it's not urgent for them right now.
And and often, like in my work, I say to people, again, it goes
back to this listening piece. You might be listening for a
long time and that listening has to be listening to learn and
listening to see. You know, it's not about
listening to win or listening to fix.
So it's the slow, slow, quick element really, you know, of, of
bringing people alongside. Sometimes our role as sort of
story centred leaders is to create the space for other
people to step in. And actually, sometimes the most
powerful thing we can say is I don't know, what do you think?
No, Recognise that it's a Co creation.
Give other people the opportunity to step in with
different perspectives, different solutions, different
ideas. You know, if we're literally
like this, you know, holding it so tight because it's got to be
done the way we want it to be done, we're going to suck all
the oxygen out of it. That that's making me think that
that's highly relevant to leadership and your leadership
style and and that's how storytelling can relate to that.
Our stories start with knowing ourselves and, and just just one
quick misperception there. You know, we often think the
leaders are people who are much, much higher up than us.
You know, we can lead in our, whatever our context, you know,
it's whether it's in conversations with our
neighbours over parking disputes, whether it's, you
know, forcing ourselves to, to have those connective
conversations, even though our siblings are annoying us, You
know, through to actually, you know, how, how can we lead in a
conversation with our manager or another colleague?
It's that it's that story living piece.
Now how? How are we?
How are we being an example? I think so.
That's great. We need to wrap up quite soon.
But before I ask you kind of the do's and don'ts for any final
takeaways, you'd like people to go away with AI data.
It's everyone's obsessing with it quite rightly at the moment.
What role does using data and AI in storytelling have or, or what
are the possibilities? I know you mentioned earlier,
could you just tell us a bit more about what you think around
that? Yeah, sure.
So I think, you know, we've we've been dealing with data for
a gazillion years and it's really important.
Sometimes that's absolutely the first thing you need to share to
have credibility. And what I'd always say is wrap
it in meaning. So it's like what that means is,
you know, sometimes we can do numbers and percentages and
people don't get it. So it's why we often talk about
number of Olympic sized swimming pools or, you know, to the moon
and back. We can we we start to create a
picture. So that's the first thing about
data. And AII think, you know, is I
have a very other positive view about AI.
If we can use it to help clarify our thinking and accelerate, you
know, solutions, that's absolutely brilliant.
It's not going away. Let's embrace it, but let's make
sure that we keep the human at the heart of it.
You know, it's it's going to be it, it's humans that are that
are making things happen with the support of AI.
And actually, it's humans that can create, you know, better
stories, you know, underpinned by great technology.
It's it's our software that makes a difference at the end of
the day. And I'd argue that stories of
technology as well. Brilliant.
Thank you. Always nice to hear something
positive about all the kind of transformational change that's
happening rather than being terrified of it.
Just to wrap up then, because you've given us a, we've delt
into many areas around storytelling.
Could you give me your do's and don'ts, if you if, if it's
possible to do that and and any kind of final takeaway for for
listeners? So I'd say do's and don'ts do
just start, do start to see that stories can really help you.
And that starts with, you know, listening actively respect your
audience and start to, to to share little stories and just
TuneIn to what's working. It's like you said, once you
start to tune in, you can see the impact that stories can
have. And I would also say do TuneIn
to your own sense of agency. It's often so easy to get
overwhelmed with a complicated project, but actually every
conversation can count. Every conversation can help you
be one step closer to success. And I would say in terms of
story don'ts, don't ignore feedback.
Don't think that practising is saying inside your head, don't
rely on PowerPoint. You know, PowerPoint kills
stories and don't mock or caricature the multiple
stakeholders that you're dealing with.
Now, if you if you see if you're calling someone a block blocker
now, maybe start to think about how they might be a late bloomer
rather than a blocker. And so just try different,
different ways. So, so those, those are some,
some do's and don'ts like just this.
And first, start practising. Keep it human.
Use language that feels comfortable to you, not not the
corporate wallpaper. And like, get outside your
comfort zone and your echo chamber.
I feel as though one danger, one of the don'ts, is to present a
story that is very good news or unrealistic or based on the very
best outcome that might happen. So this kind of optimism bias
and, and going beyond that though, it's I think it's termed
strategic misrepresentation. So it's very much telling a
story to your own personal or a group's benefit, when in fact
it's not really rooted in reality unless you know
everything aligns and. You know.
That you're asking for something that's not really going to
happen. What advice would you give
around that? Because that's something that is
being talked to kind of discussed a lot as well within
the project profession. And how?
How do you be more realistic in the stories that you tell?
We're not, we're not in the business of fairy stories.
We don't have magic wands. And if you're telling, you know,
an over simplistic, happy clappy story, well, unless you've got a
magic wand, it's not going to happen.
And I think it's about building credibility.
And I do like this, this idea of sort of simplification at the
top and like the complication at the bottom.
It's no it you're probably in a project going to be telling a
story with multiple chapters. So it's absolutely fine to have
your scenario your imagine the happy ending where you're going
to get there. But you're only going to be
successful if you can bring people on the journey of where
you are now. And I think, you know, that's
about self-awareness, recognising, of course, you
know, we love, we love a good news story, but the chances are
it's going to backfire on us. I think just just be honest and,
and even when it feels uncomfortable, this is where we
are. This is where we'd like to be
and these the missing pieces. So how are we going to
collaborate together to make it to make it possible?
What do you do? This is difficult question.
What do you do when you start to lose faith in the story that
you've been told to tell or that you initially believed in, but
things, you know, things happen to knock a project, of course,
external, internal, whatever. How do you then keep faithful to
that story? Or is it a matter of re nosing
sort of changing the path of that story?
Have you seen that happen? Have you spoken to people about
that, that side of things? Yes, yeah, yeah, I have.
And and I think that's the nature that we're operating in
right now, isn't it? And actually what holds us back
so often is having a a story that we're never going to
achieve. No, and like I talked earlier
about self limiting stories, it might be a story about our
expectations of how we and our team are going to perform in
this situation. And often it's a case of going
back to the drawing board on the listening piece.
Now what have we missed actually has our, has our shared vision
of where we're going to get to changed and, and establishing at
the beginning that this isn't easy.
It's not, it's not a fairy story, there aren't any happy
endings. It's going to be complex.
But if we can come, come to it with the right intent and
recognise that we are going to be learning along the way and
the story will change. So those conversations are
uncomfortable. Everyone's been in a project
where there's scope creep or the brief just wasn't clear at the
beginning. People didn't know what they
wanted. And you know, 18 months in,
you're realising actually they wanted something completely
different. I think that's the nature of,
of, of, of complexity. So I, I just think, I just think
it's saying this, this, it's the honest piece, which is actually,
we want different things. Can we, can we like, can we
agree on on a shared vision of where we want to get to and go
back to the drawing board and reading Often that insight where
things aren't working is perhaps someone who doesn't have a voice
at the table. So it's like, how do we seek out
those perspectives so we can find out about those things
early rather than late? So he just sees me so massive
thank you for your time. Excellent advice and tips for
project professionals. So thanks very much for joining
us. Thanks, Emma.