1 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,720 Welcome to the OEM podcast. I'm Emma Devita, the editor of 2 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,280 APM's Project Journal and your host. 3 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,320 Today's podcast is all about storytelling and why it's a 4 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,160 great skill to master as a project professional and how to 5 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,960 go about doing it well. Here to give us her expertise is 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,200 Zoe Arden, author of a new book called Story Centred Leadership, 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,760 Crafting Cultures of Change, which is published by Routledge. 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,520 She is a Fellow at the University of Cambridge 9 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,000 Institute for Sustainability Leadership and was previously 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,400 Director of Communications at BT, as well as European MD of 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,080 global communications firm Webber Shandwick, among other 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,760 executive roles. So, Zoe, welcome to the podcast. 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,520 Thanks for having me, Emma. It's a pleasure. 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,880 Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,040 your interest in working storytelling and how does that 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,280 come about? Sure. 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,120 Well, you mentioned there that I've got a background in 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:17,720 communications and and then I thought I would go in house to 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,520 BT retail as you mentioned where I thought the grass might be 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,800 greener. And what really fascinated me 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,160 was that in every role that I went to, often the conversation 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,040 ended up being, you know, how do we communicate this complicated 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,000 project, whatever it might be, to stakeholders in a way that 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,760 they care and want to be part of making it successful. 25 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,080 And the more I heard this as I moved into, to different fields, 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,960 I then went into sustainability and leadership. 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:53,240 And again, it's like, how do we, how do we make this, this topic 28 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,560 meaningful to others? So there are inspired, engaged, 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,480 motivated and want to be part of making it happen. 30 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,520 And that's when I really realised that actually it's all 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,520 about stories and sense making and making the complicated 32 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:13,920 simple enough for people to want to take action. 33 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,040 Tell us about your book. Why? 34 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,880 What do you argue in your book and and why did you want to 35 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,680 write it? So yeah, here it is. 36 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,520 I actually only have one copy left. 37 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:31,640 Just to show that's good. And I wrote it because having I, 38 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:35,280 I've spent years doing leadership and storytelling 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,600 trainings with business people around the world. 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,840 And what I realised was that, you know, people could leave 41 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,680 those sessions with a narrative that they could use to engage 42 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,240 their most important stakeholders and that actually 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,080 people found it quite difficult. And that I had a model that 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,960 worked and I really wanted to be able to share it more than just 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,240 the people that I reached through my online and face to 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,000 face training sessions and workshops and coaching. 47 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,800 And I just passionately believe that actually stories can help 48 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,360 us rediscover our own sense of agency. 49 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,360 Now, often we think, oh, you know, if only I was the boss or 50 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,400 if only, you know, I, I could had the formal power to do 51 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,240 something about this. And actually how we communicate 52 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,520 and how we connect with others really can make a massive 53 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,520 difference both in our personal lives and in our professional 54 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,000 lives. And I wanted to be able to share 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,280 that that knowledge and, and get people thinking. 56 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,200 Actually, if I just practise this a little bit, if I use 57 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,040 these tools, I could do this in a way that would make a massive 58 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,240 difference for me and my context. 59 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,880 Do you think everyone can be a storyteller? 60 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,080 Because not everyone is. I mean, it is. 61 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,400 It is something partly that you're born with. 62 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,240 Some people just can tell a good anecdote, can't they? 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,400 But we'll get into what is storytelling when it relates to 64 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,960 projects in a minute. But do you feel as though 65 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,640 everyone can improve at this and that there are ways to do that 66 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,839 well? Yeah, I think absolutely 67 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,400 everyone can improve how they tell stories and how they engage 68 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,720 and motivate others. And it is hard work. 69 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,240 I mean, if we think about the best storytellers, it's stand up 70 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:35,480 comedians and they, they literally spend years working on 71 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,960 their material and seeing the feedback that they're getting 72 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,160 from audiences and then sort of iterating it and, and changing 73 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,600 it. And I think, you know, most of 74 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,280 us, you know, if we're, if we're project professionals or we're 75 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:54,000 skilled at what we do, we, we, we're almost burdened with the 76 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,640 curse of knowledge. And the thing we find most 77 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,880 difficult is to sort of elevate what we do up to a simple 78 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:04,920 message that other people can understand. 79 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,600 I heard AI had a great expression yesterday when I was 80 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,840 on a webinar, which was, you know, when we're trying to 81 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,120 communicate what we do to others, it's simplicity at the 82 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,840 top and complicated at the bottom. 83 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,280 And the problem is that we tend to like dish up the complicated 84 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:23,400 and you can see like people's eyes start to close over. 85 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,080 So yes, I absolutely believe it's something that we can all 86 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,000 get much, much better at. I don't think that many people 87 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,640 are are born with it. Yes, you don't actually have to 88 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,280 be like a Jack Dee or a Sarah Pascoe to be a great storyteller 89 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:40,840 in in projects. And it I was glad to hear that 90 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:44,000 you were talking about simplicity and clarity, which is 91 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,000 something that OPM have been talking about a lot recently. 92 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,640 So I would like to ask you then, why do project professionals 93 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,760 need to be adept storytellers? What are the benefits it brings 94 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,240 them to their projects? Well. 95 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,640 I think project professionals are great examples of people who 96 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,400 are working with complexity. You know, they're trying to 97 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:13,120 navigate a lot of change. So actually, how can you come up 98 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,640 with a, a sort of shared vision that other people can tap into 99 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,840 something that, you know, it really sort of activates the 100 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,400 hearts and minds for people so that they want to work alongside 101 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,760 with you, alongside you to make that possible. 102 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,080 You know, their project managers are trying to bring together 103 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,120 many different elements, multiple stakeholders. 104 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,120 And I think having a, an appreciation for the multiple 105 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,600 perspectives that you're working with, keeping it human and 106 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,960 authentic. Now avoid also avoiding 107 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,080 oversimplified stories as well. These are always that actually 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,760 project professionals can, can bring others alongside, help 109 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,320 them to achieve, you know, their goals. 110 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,600 So it's. Kind of motivating A-Team but 111 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,960 also galvanising everyone behind the ultimate outcomes of what's 112 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,960 going to be delivered. Yeah, I think can you, can you 113 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,240 create a shared vision that people can buy into, 114 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,400 particularly when it doesn't exist yet? 115 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,480 I'm I'm really taking the time to understand the various 116 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,960 stakeholders that you're working with. 117 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,080 What's in it for them? Why should they care? 118 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,280 And that requires the agility it requires walking in our 119 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,640 stakeholders shoes a little bit and recognising the what might, 120 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,160 might motivate Emma on a project might be different to what might 121 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,600 motivate Zoe on a project. So doing a little bit of that 122 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:51,360 heavy lifting initially and, and just spending 5 minutes ahead of 123 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,280 each conversation thinking, OK, you know, what's what's going on 124 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,920 for this person? What's their biggest problem 125 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,320 that I can help solve? Can be transformational and and 126 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:08,240 how you can make a project move shift and get where you want it 127 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,400 to get to. Thank you. 128 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,560 What about on the career side of things? 129 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,200 Because I'm sure there'll be lots of ambitious people 130 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,520 listening. Know full well that being a good 131 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:26,360 communicator and being able to clearly communicate about a 132 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,680 project, whatever the stage you're at and the benefits it 133 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,280 will deliver is key. But how does storytelling fit in 134 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,360 to that? I mean, I think. 135 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,520 Where storytelling fits into that is we've all been in the 136 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,040 situation where we're thrown into a meeting and we've got 2 137 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,160 minutes to explain a very, very complicated project to people 138 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,880 who are not in the weeds of delivering it. 139 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,720 And I think storytelling techniques can help us come up 140 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:02,560 with clarity and sort of really concise sticky messages that 141 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:04,680 people in that meeting will take away with them. 142 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,800 So I, I talk about what's your takeaway message and why is it 143 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,640 important? And if you can clarify that, 144 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,200 that really I think can help make a difference with your 145 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,480 career. We all know what it's like when 146 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,720 when we're sort of suddenly found ourselves in front of our 147 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,080 boss or our boss's boss who we get very little FaceTime with. 148 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,960 Actually, if you can say something with them that lands 149 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,920 that they take away, you will have made a lasting impact. 150 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,560 And those are those are storytelling techniques. 151 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,800 It's being prepared, recognising that people have shorter and 152 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,240 shorter attention spans. So actually often it's less 153 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,000 words, more impact. So thinking about what's going 154 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,480 to move people, because often it the facts and the data don't 155 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,280 move people. Now actually, it's the stories, 156 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,760 it's a little anecdote that you might have about the project 157 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,960 that really brings it alive for the person that you're talking 158 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,080 to. Yeah, you're right. 159 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,280 And actually thinking about your own narrative as a professional. 160 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,440 So the the kind of career journey you're on and how to 161 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,400 tell this about story and how people perceive you and then 162 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,800 spotting opportunity. So it's about very succinctly 163 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,080 but authentically telling people where you're at and what you're 164 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,640 interested and where you want to go. 165 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,560 Is that I hadn't thought about that before. 166 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:37,400 The kind of story of your career and where you might want to go. 167 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,280 Yeah, absolutely. And I think the the one aspect 168 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,880 of stories that's really important to be aware of is 169 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,760 simple stories and self limiting stories. 170 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:53,760 What do you mean by that? So for example, I work with many 171 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,400 sort of mid career people and they might have a simple story, 172 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,000 which is if I start to talk about my work and my success and 173 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,520 why I want to get to the next level, that's going to make me 174 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,080 pushy. That's going to make me look 175 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,360 pushy. No, actually. 176 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,920 And and that stops you acting. So, so sort of getting rid of 177 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,680 some of those self limiting stories that we have about 178 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:21,400 ourselves. And the second thing is I often 179 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,360 spend time with people thinking about what's the future story 180 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,560 you want to tell about yourself? No, because we're so busy in the 181 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,200 moment. Actually, if we could just lift 182 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,680 our heads up and go, where do I want to be in a couple of years 183 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,680 time and what's what is that story that I want to tell? 184 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,920 So just having a little bit of consciousness and practising 185 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,240 thinking, you know, with a sense of purpose, you know, what are 186 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,440 my superpowers and how can I illustrate those with pithy 187 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,440 little examples? And often we, we need other 188 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,680 people to come in and advocate for us. 189 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,280 And we can do that with anecdotes from others. 190 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,720 You know, I was talking to ex client, ex customer, you know, 191 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,600 ex community member, and they said this about the project. 192 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:13,160 And that can be a way of elevating your involvement in 193 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:18,000 the project without even saying those words. 194 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,400 So it's like, wow, that's really incredible. 195 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,160 You got through those challenges, you know, by 196 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,320 building better relationships there or solving that problem 197 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,920 you're using. You're using a third party 198 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,320 anecdote, which I always talk about anecdotes as like the 199 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,720 superfood of stories. Yeah. 200 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,000 I agree. It's like a 62nd anecdote Will 201 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,560 kind of pivot your headline message and maybe it's like, you 202 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:46,160 know, I'm the written I'm the right person to be project 203 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,960 managing our next our next big client project. 204 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,840 Do you know what I'm thinking? Because you mustn't get stuck 205 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,600 telling the same anecdotes over and over again, because then 206 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,480 you're that person that over Rolls Royce, say, oh, not that 207 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,480 story again. So it's important to mix it up. 208 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,200 Yeah. And I think that is, I mean, 209 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,840 it's another important aspect that I talk about in in the 210 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:16,320 book, which is getting outside our own echo chamber and taking 211 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,600 the time to have conversations with stakeholders who might be 212 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,040 on the periphery. If we're just talking to people 213 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:29,040 like ourselves, we are going to be just telling the same story 214 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,880 again and again. So it's kind of like I talk 215 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,240 about going from an echo chamber, moving beyond an ego 216 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,200 chamber, which is like, Emma, great job. 217 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,440 Yes, absolutely. That's how we're going to do it 218 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:44,960 to a bigger kind of eco chamber. And often our bosses are starved 219 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,600 of those broader perspectives and we can bring those in. 220 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:50,800 So you're right. Yeah. 221 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,800 Different different perspectives representing different different 222 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:01,680 voices can illuminate different aspects of a of a a a complex 223 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,160 project. Thanks Sarah, I do. 224 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,200 I do like the idea of an ego chamber though. 225 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,560 You know what, Emma, we all need an ego chamber from time to 226 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:14,160 time, don't we? I agree, I agree times we need 227 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,800 people that sort of pat us on the back and go, well done you. 228 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,400 We do. We absolutely do need. 229 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,400 We need champions and challenges in in our lives. 230 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,600 Too right? I actually wanted to go right 231 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,880 down to basics and ask you what is storytelling exactly and what 232 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,680 isn't it? Because if it's not a term 233 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,480 you're used to hearing at work, you can think at one end. 234 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:42,560 It's like stories you might read to a child before bed to the 235 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,680 opposite end, which is a very cynical kind of in the thick of 236 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:51,960 it, PR PR ring. Not not actually telling the 237 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,600 truth about things, just blindly trying to get a message across. 238 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:01,120 Which people obviously see as inauthentic or I've, I've, I 239 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,720 would like really like to ask you about that. 240 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,600 So what is what makes for good storytelling, and what is it 241 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,800 definitely not? Yeah, yeah, sure. 242 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,640 There's there's a lot packed into that. 243 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,480 And I just observed when you were like talking about PR, you 244 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,680 did a little raise of the eyebrow there. 245 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,640 And journalist, I think it's. Also worth acknowledging that 246 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,560 actually we are speaking volumes before we even open our mouths. 247 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,800 And like, you know, I can interpret, I'm making decisions, 248 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,000 judgements about what you're saying just with your language. 249 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,400 So just a note on that for people that spend a lot of time 250 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,640 being a teeny tiny little box on a team's call or a Zoom call, 251 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,960 Don't forget people will be looking at you for the energy 252 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,240 and intent that you're bringing. Do you care about this project? 253 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,600 But to move back to what storytelling is and what it's 254 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,960 not, Absolutely it's storytelling. 255 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,360 It's not fiction. It's not horror stories. 256 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,400 It's not about caricaturing stakeholders. 257 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,720 It's we tend to love heroes and villains. 258 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:15,000 And actually, if you know what I see a lot of in business is US 259 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,120 making other functions. Oh, if only procurement could 260 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,400 get their finger out. If only legal weren't such, you 261 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,040 know, party poopers. And particularly for like, 262 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,480 project professionals where you're working across multiple 263 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,640 disciplines. No, storytelling is not about 264 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,520 creating heroes and villains and caricaturing others and 265 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,400 dominating with our own perspective. 266 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,920 So that storytelling is very much about tuning into your 267 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:46,120 audience, listening for what matters, and sharing authentic, 268 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,640 truthful stories in your own language, not the corporate 269 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,480 wallpaper. And I, I like to think about 270 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,120 them as little packets of meaning making that can help you 271 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,360 accelerate what you're trying to achieve. 272 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,440 Because we are all wired for stories. 273 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:11,040 Our brains are actually filled with quite ancient wiring and 274 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,520 stories are how we make sense of what's going on in the world. 275 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,680 And they do motivate us in ways that sort of data doesn't. 276 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,119 What makes for a good story then? 277 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:29,240 How do you pick the right tone, the right line, the right words 278 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,760 for conveying fairly what it is you want to do with a project? 279 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:41,440 So I guess I'm asking you some advice on on telling a good 280 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,480 story. How do you what do you need to 281 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,080 think about when you're putting your narrative or your story 282 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,720 together? Is there any tips or techniques 283 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,760 you could share? Yeah, sure. 284 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,040 So I've got a, a sort of a, a circular model in the book which 285 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,880 goes from story listening to story living. 286 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,520 And a lot of people try and make miss out the first. 287 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,240 I mean, it's circular, but story listening is absolutely the most 288 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,800 essential element of creating stories that are going to help 289 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,640 you deliver on your projects and succeed. 290 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,560 And what do you mean by? That yeah. 291 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,040 What it? Means by is by starting, by 292 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,520 listening to the people that you're trying to influence, You 293 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,680 know, what is it that they care about? 294 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,000 Really digging into why your project is going to be important 295 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,320 for them. So it's walking in the shoes of 296 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,280 our stakeholders, seeing what the world looks like through 297 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,160 their eyes. And that's where our stories 298 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,720 start. So I think, you know, that's a, 299 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,760 that's a, a stage that we so often miss out on. 300 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,560 And I actually hear people go, I don't have the time to do that. 301 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,000 Well, you're never going to connect with the people that you 302 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,040 need to have on side if you don't have a sense of what 303 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,120 matters to them. So that's the most important 304 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,480 sort of stage I say about creating stories, which often 305 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,760 people overlook. And it's how do we build them 306 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,000 collaboratively? How do we get feedback from 307 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,840 others? So go from story listening to 308 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,760 story building. You know, some of the essential 309 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,760 ingredients we talked about, like what is it that people take 310 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,720 away having had a conversation with us? 311 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,440 What are the examples that that might really turn the lights on 312 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,440 for them? Now maybe it's an image now 313 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,920 maybe it's a picture of, of I don't know if they're, if 314 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,440 they're, if they're wired that way, maybe a Gantt chart is 315 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,240 going to light up their, their lives or, you know, an image of 316 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,000 what, what the project's going to look like when it's 317 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,360 completed. Or maybe it is a data point 318 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,840 that's wrapped up in meaning if if a lot of people are hugely 319 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,280 motivated by data. So start get a sense of what's 320 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,960 going to move them. And then it's actually about 321 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,720 story shaping. How do we practise and get 322 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,080 feedback from others like in our team? 323 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,320 Do we think this is going to land with Emma? 324 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,960 You know her better than I do. And then how do we work 325 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,240 collaboratively, collaboratively with others in our organisation? 326 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,840 So we're actually sharing stories because, you know, 327 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,440 stories are a great way of sharing failures and experiments 328 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,200 as well as successes. And we can learn so much from 329 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,560 what doesn't work. So that's so those are some of 330 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,080 the, the key elements really. And I mean, I've maybe made it 331 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,120 sound a little bit complicated there, but I've got a very 332 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:40,760 simple framework in the book, a story framework. 333 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,840 And I actually use that to write every single chapter of the 334 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,600 book. And I use that for whether it's 335 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,760 like creating 70,000 words to a 5 minute conversation and it's 336 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,800 just providing A framework, a little bit of discipline, 337 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,560 starting with what are people going to take away having had a 338 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,880 conversation with me? And that's the starting point of 339 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,960 your stories. That's really valuable advice. 340 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,120 I wanted to pick up on telling talking about failure. 341 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,600 So project professionals like if they have the chance to spend 342 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,360 time going through lessons learned, So what can they take 343 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:20,960 from previous projects that might work? 344 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,760 But there's a lot around the discussion at the moment about 345 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,000 how psychological safety is important, the ability for 346 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,880 people to actually be honest and feel that they will be listened 347 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,120 to even if they're saying something challenging. 348 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,080 But I wondered, any advice on how to frame talking about 349 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:46,240 something that went wrong? So failure, if you want to 350 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,320 present that in a way kind of as professional as possible, as 351 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,120 something that is a is a valuable experience. 352 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,640 So that's completely different to telling the story of a new 353 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,160 project and getting people motivated and excited about it 354 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:08,680 and perhaps trying to win over stakeholders with the impact of 355 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,440 that project. So there's a lot of talk as well 356 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,000 about social impact of projects and the benefits that they 357 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,960 deliver and being able to tell the story about that. 358 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,280 But on the flip side, do you have any advice on how to talk 359 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,680 about failures or things went wrong that you might actually 360 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,960 personally find quite difficult to talk about and you might feel 361 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,840 a bit scared about kind of, you know, blame culture and that 362 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,880 kind of stuff? Yeah. 363 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:41,440 So I do, I spend a lot of time working with sort of mid, mid 364 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,880 and senior career professionals on, on their leadership 365 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,960 development. And, and that includes how, how, 366 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,360 how do we create thriving teams? How do we create environments 367 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:55,000 where people feel safe to, to question and challenge. 368 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,400 And so I spent quite a lot of time thinking about how do we 369 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,240 tell new stories about things like conflict and candour. 370 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,560 And I think as as project professionals that you have a 371 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,080 real opportunity to start by creating a shared vision. 372 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,280 So if you've got like a shared vision, shared vision of where 373 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,000 the project's going that people buy into, then when as obviously 374 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,960 happens, you know, you kind of get missteps and mistakes along 375 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,560 the way, you're still aiming for that. 376 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,280 And I think it's how do we reframe those difficult 377 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:36,480 conversations so that their task and project focused are not sort 378 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,160 of personally focused. And I think if we're bringing 379 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,280 that intent, that makes it easier to have a conversation 380 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,160 about what went wrong because it's like, OK, what can we learn 381 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,000 from this? You know, we've got multiple 382 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,360 threads here. Maybe we're doing it like this 383 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,800 for the first time. Everyone is always doing their 384 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,920 best. I remember one of the first 385 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,960 bosses I ever had said, is it cock up or conspiracy? 386 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,160 No, most of the time it's cock up. 387 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,920 But, you know, people have got their hearts in the right place. 388 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,360 So. And I think the most important 389 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,200 place to start is with questions. 390 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,880 And how can you start with questions that are actually the 391 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,120 the sort of energy for the questions is we want to do a 392 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,720 great project together. No, the energy for the questions 393 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:28,080 is not about sort of pointing a finger or assigning blame. 394 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,320 So, you know, that's something I spend a lot of time for 395 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,960 questions like, you know, what are we missing? 396 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,440 What are we not seeing? What could we do differently? 397 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,360 And I think sort of the neutrality of our questions, but 398 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:45,320 having them in a firm foundation of everyone wants the project to 399 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,360 succeed is a great place to start. 400 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,040 And actually, if there's someone who doesn't want to put the 401 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,920 project to seek succeed, yes, it's an uncomfortable 402 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,160 conversation, but call that out now and and maybe it's, you 403 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,400 know, there's a deeper, deeper element that will create a 404 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,640 fruitful, rich discussion in itself. 405 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,680 So I think I would really encourage people to sort of step 406 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,680 into those uncomfortable conversations, but with the very 407 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,120 clear framing that it's about ultimately the success of the 408 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,520 project and everyone being able to do a great job. 409 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,760 And what I'm talking to you and thinking about storytelling, the 410 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,280 more I see that everything could be related back to storytelling. 411 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,000 I mean welcome. To my world, Emma. 412 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,680 We've talked a little bit, well you've shared the kind of 413 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,240 broader framework about how to create a good story or ace an 414 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,000 effective story. Could you give us some tips or 415 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,120 advice on the skills you need, the actual art of telling a 416 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,360 story as a person, as an individual? 417 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,400 How do you go about delivering the story? 418 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,960 Is there anything you've learnt through or many years kind of 419 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,920 working in this field that that people might be able to use to 420 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,240 put into practise? Yeah. 421 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,720 So, so a couple of things. I mean, the first thing I'd say 422 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,520 is, you know, I often start my sessions getting people to share 423 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,880 what I call stories of passion, you know, which kind of like I 424 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,480 make people go, oh, what's that? And I think practise sharing 425 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,040 stories about things that you're passionate about outside work 426 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,360 now that builds that fluent fluency. 427 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:29,920 And you know, what it feels like in your body when you're telling 428 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,680 a story, whether it's a family occasion or with friends, or 429 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,120 maybe you're in a team and you're telling a story about 430 00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:41,800 your latest, you know, win. We feel that sort of energy, we 431 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,280 feel the connection. We've got the sort of fluidity 432 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,920 in our bodies. So I think have that starting 433 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,720 point of what it feels like either to personally share a 434 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,920 great story or receive a great story and like notice what's 435 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,400 going on. You know, we're relaxed, we're 436 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,680 smiling, there's eye contact. You know, we're, we're kind of 437 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,840 like our bodies are loose. You know, we're not got our 438 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,760 hands jammed into our, our pockets or out, you know, arms 439 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,640 tightly folded. So firstly, get that I kind of 440 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,360 call, call that, you know, warming up our story muscles. 441 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,360 And that's a great place to start because then we sometimes 442 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,880 notice that when we're in work, you know, we are all tight and 443 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,440 kind of PO faced and using jargon and acronyms and we're 444 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,400 like, well, I'm not doing that when I'm telling stories my 445 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,360 mates at the weekend. So firstly, you know, develop 446 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:41,880 like warm up your story muscles and, and, and start to seek, 447 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,080 seek out great stories and great storytellers because we can 448 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,400 learn so much from that. So, so that's a that's a great 449 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,320 starting point. You know, find some people to 450 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,080 that you that will give you honest feedback, which is 451 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,960 actually do. I got this, for example, when I 452 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:04,720 left, when I left Weber, I got a leaving card and it was lovely. 453 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,240 All my little kind of little, you know, idiosyncrasies were 454 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,440 highlighted and nice photos. And then there was a line in 455 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,400 there which said has been documented to say the words, you 456 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,160 know, 22 times in a minute. And it was absolutely horrified. 457 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,320 You know, these were my, these were my kind of filler, filler 458 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,120 words. And I even, I didn't even know 459 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:32,680 that I was saying them. So we all have little verbal or 460 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,520 visual ticks that we might be unaware of. 461 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,040 There's a horrible expression. We're all on the wrong side of 462 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,840 our own eyeballs. No so, so you can hold up a 463 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,320 mirror and go. Do you realise when you're 464 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,320 speaking you spend the whole time fiddling with your ear or 465 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,720 you're going like this with your mouth? 466 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,640 So find people who and that will give you honest, honest feedback 467 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,680 and be and be prepared to accept it. 468 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,880 That's the hard bit, yeah. Yeah, exactly. 469 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,760 So those would be two, two starting points that I would say 470 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,800 practise and ask others for feedback. 471 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,240 And actually the third one, I'd say Emma is most people do not 472 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,400 feel comfortable standing up and and talking in front of a room. 473 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,160 And sometimes it really, really helps to say no. 474 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,640 I'm, I'm quite nervous because this is a topic I really care 475 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,120 about. This project is important to me. 476 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,720 Now. Put yourself in the room. 477 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,320 Show other people that you care about this. 478 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,920 Sometimes if we say, you know, I'm a little bit nervous that 479 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,120 this, this project is an experiment. 480 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,040 We've not done it this way before. 481 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,240 That kind of, you know, personal commitment really makes the 482 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,400 difference. You know, we do this work 483 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,320 because we care and we care about the outcome. 484 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,080 And so actually showing that we care and saying that we care or 485 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,880 at the moment we're feeling a bit nervous is absolutely fine. 486 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,080 That's a really good point. I'm just thinking of a scenario 487 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,520 because project professionals often have to have difficult 488 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,200 conversations that might be with partners on the project or it 489 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,560 might be with stakeholders, people who don't want the 490 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,600 project to happen for whatever reason. 491 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,480 So I guess you don't you're allowed to say that we don't 492 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,680 have all the answers or I don't know how to phrase that really. 493 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,920 But if you're telling a story and you yourself have doubts 494 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,800 about story you're telling, how how do you deal with that in an 495 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,840 effective way? Because I think you're saying 496 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,680 just then about showing a bit of vulnerability because you 497 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,320 actually care about something. But also, how do you go about 498 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,320 telling the story of a project to people who might not 499 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:06,240 necessarily be on board with the project in a way that could 500 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,840 bring them round or just be more accepting of what's going on? 501 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,280 So there's a lot wrapped up in that. 502 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:20,560 So I think recognising that sometimes it's about clarity, 503 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,280 not certainty, you know, we might not have the route map 504 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,360 like all the detail, but as long as we can still kind of evolve 505 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,680 where we're going together, that can help. 506 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,240 Secondly, as you say, you know, people that aren't quite on 507 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,800 board actually having an honest conversation and thinking with 508 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,760 ourselves going, are am I the right person to try and convince 509 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,080 them? Maybe, for example, I don't know 510 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:56,080 if it's like a project in a residential area, maybe there 511 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,920 are other people who would be better tellers of this. 512 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:05,640 This story is another aspect. Sometimes we're just not the 513 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,760 right person. It might be someone else in our 514 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,280 team. It might be, you know, someone 515 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:16,440 in another part of the delivery of the project that is a better 516 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,760 communicator and persuader. Sometimes we need to play the 517 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,160 long game. You know, we're not going to get 518 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,000 them on side in one conversation. 519 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,960 Now recognise that your story might have multiple chapters and 520 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,120 we we're not going to nail it in this moment, however urgent it 521 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,600 is for us, it's not urgent for them right now. 522 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,000 And and often, like in my work, I say to people, again, it goes 523 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,840 back to this listening piece. You might be listening for a 524 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:48,240 long time and that listening has to be listening to learn and 525 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,920 listening to see. You know, it's not about 526 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,640 listening to win or listening to fix. 527 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,840 So it's the slow, slow, quick element really, you know, of, of 528 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,560 bringing people alongside. Sometimes our role as sort of 529 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,760 story centred leaders is to create the space for other 530 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,800 people to step in. And actually, sometimes the most 531 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,520 powerful thing we can say is I don't know, what do you think? 532 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,960 No, Recognise that it's a Co creation. 533 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,520 Give other people the opportunity to step in with 534 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,600 different perspectives, different solutions, different 535 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,320 ideas. You know, if we're literally 536 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,320 like this, you know, holding it so tight because it's got to be 537 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,960 done the way we want it to be done, we're going to suck all 538 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,120 the oxygen out of it. That that's making me think that 539 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,960 that's highly relevant to leadership and your leadership 540 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,200 style and and that's how storytelling can relate to that. 541 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,040 Our stories start with knowing ourselves and, and just just one 542 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,320 quick misperception there. You know, we often think the 543 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,240 leaders are people who are much, much higher up than us. 544 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,200 You know, we can lead in our, whatever our context, you know, 545 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,000 it's whether it's in conversations with our 546 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,800 neighbours over parking disputes, whether it's, you 547 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,679 know, forcing ourselves to, to have those connective 548 00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:17,280 conversations, even though our siblings are annoying us, You 549 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,320 know, through to actually, you know, how, how can we lead in a 550 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,040 conversation with our manager or another colleague? 551 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,600 It's that it's that story living piece. 552 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:29,760 Now how? How are we? 553 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,000 How are we being an example? I think so. 554 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,120 That's great. We need to wrap up quite soon. 555 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,239 But before I ask you kind of the do's and don'ts for any final 556 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,199 takeaways, you'd like people to go away with AI data. 557 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,880 It's everyone's obsessing with it quite rightly at the moment. 558 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:58,800 What role does using data and AI in storytelling have or, or what 559 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,040 are the possibilities? I know you mentioned earlier, 560 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,560 could you just tell us a bit more about what you think around 561 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,440 that? Yeah, sure. 562 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:12,000 So I think, you know, we've we've been dealing with data for 563 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,520 a gazillion years and it's really important. 564 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,040 Sometimes that's absolutely the first thing you need to share to 565 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,720 have credibility. And what I'd always say is wrap 566 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:28,120 it in meaning. So it's like what that means is, 567 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,600 you know, sometimes we can do numbers and percentages and 568 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,800 people don't get it. So it's why we often talk about 569 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,360 number of Olympic sized swimming pools or, you know, to the moon 570 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,240 and back. We can we we start to create a 571 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,240 picture. So that's the first thing about 572 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,880 data. And AII think, you know, is I 573 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,280 have a very other positive view about AI. 574 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:57,440 If we can use it to help clarify our thinking and accelerate, you 575 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,600 know, solutions, that's absolutely brilliant. 576 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,760 It's not going away. Let's embrace it, but let's make 577 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,440 sure that we keep the human at the heart of it. 578 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,360 You know, it's it's going to be it, it's humans that are that 579 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,120 are making things happen with the support of AI. 580 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,240 And actually, it's humans that can create, you know, better 581 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,960 stories, you know, underpinned by great technology. 582 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,160 It's it's our software that makes a difference at the end of 583 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,800 the day. And I'd argue that stories of 584 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,200 technology as well. Brilliant. 585 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,720 Thank you. Always nice to hear something 586 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:37,960 positive about all the kind of transformational change that's 587 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,320 happening rather than being terrified of it. 588 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,000 Just to wrap up then, because you've given us a, we've delt 589 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,920 into many areas around storytelling. 590 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,760 Could you give me your do's and don'ts, if you if, if it's 591 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,720 possible to do that and and any kind of final takeaway for for 592 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:00,840 listeners? So I'd say do's and don'ts do 593 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:07,960 just start, do start to see that stories can really help you. 594 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,320 And that starts with, you know, listening actively respect your 595 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,720 audience and start to, to to share little stories and just 596 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:19,720 TuneIn to what's working. It's like you said, once you 597 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:24,040 start to tune in, you can see the impact that stories can 598 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,440 have. And I would also say do TuneIn 599 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,480 to your own sense of agency. It's often so easy to get 600 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,600 overwhelmed with a complicated project, but actually every 601 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,120 conversation can count. Every conversation can help you 602 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,800 be one step closer to success. And I would say in terms of 603 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,080 story don'ts, don't ignore feedback. 604 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:58,760 Don't think that practising is saying inside your head, don't 605 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,280 rely on PowerPoint. You know, PowerPoint kills 606 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:08,160 stories and don't mock or caricature the multiple 607 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,720 stakeholders that you're dealing with. 608 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,720 Now, if you if you see if you're calling someone a block blocker 609 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,600 now, maybe start to think about how they might be a late bloomer 610 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,200 rather than a blocker. And so just try different, 611 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,600 different ways. So, so those, those are some, 612 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,040 some do's and don'ts like just this. 613 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,760 And first, start practising. Keep it human. 614 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,560 Use language that feels comfortable to you, not not the 615 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,960 corporate wallpaper. And like, get outside your 616 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,640 comfort zone and your echo chamber. 617 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,480 I feel as though one danger, one of the don'ts, is to present a 618 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,440 story that is very good news or unrealistic or based on the very 619 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,080 best outcome that might happen. So this kind of optimism bias 620 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,400 and, and going beyond that though, it's I think it's termed 621 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,440 strategic misrepresentation. So it's very much telling a 622 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,920 story to your own personal or a group's benefit, when in fact 623 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,720 it's not really rooted in reality unless you know 624 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,160 everything aligns and. You know. 625 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,320 That you're asking for something that's not really going to 626 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,160 happen. What advice would you give 627 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,760 around that? Because that's something that is 628 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,400 being talked to kind of discussed a lot as well within 629 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,480 the project profession. And how? 630 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,680 How do you be more realistic in the stories that you tell? 631 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,080 We're not, we're not in the business of fairy stories. 632 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,760 We don't have magic wands. And if you're telling, you know, 633 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:44,520 an over simplistic, happy clappy story, well, unless you've got a 634 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,200 magic wand, it's not going to happen. 635 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,880 And I think it's about building credibility. 636 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,480 And I do like this, this idea of sort of simplification at the 637 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,120 top and like the complication at the bottom. 638 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:01,560 It's no it you're probably in a project going to be telling a 639 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,840 story with multiple chapters. So it's absolutely fine to have 640 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:11,640 your scenario your imagine the happy ending where you're going 641 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,760 to get there. But you're only going to be 642 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,000 successful if you can bring people on the journey of where 643 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,320 you are now. And I think, you know, that's 644 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,920 about self-awareness, recognising, of course, you 645 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,120 know, we love, we love a good news story, but the chances are 646 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,760 it's going to backfire on us. I think just just be honest and, 647 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,080 and even when it feels uncomfortable, this is where we 648 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,920 are. This is where we'd like to be 649 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,080 and these the missing pieces. So how are we going to 650 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,680 collaborate together to make it to make it possible? 651 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,280 What do you do? This is difficult question. 652 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,040 What do you do when you start to lose faith in the story that 653 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:58,080 you've been told to tell or that you initially believed in, but 654 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,000 things, you know, things happen to knock a project, of course, 655 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:08,040 external, internal, whatever. How do you then keep faithful to 656 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,400 that story? Or is it a matter of re nosing 657 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,840 sort of changing the path of that story? 658 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,040 Have you seen that happen? Have you spoken to people about 659 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,320 that, that side of things? Yes, yeah, yeah, I have. 660 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,280 And and I think that's the nature that we're operating in 661 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,520 right now, isn't it? And actually what holds us back 662 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,000 so often is having a a story that we're never going to 663 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,640 achieve. No, and like I talked earlier 664 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,800 about self limiting stories, it might be a story about our 665 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,840 expectations of how we and our team are going to perform in 666 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,200 this situation. And often it's a case of going 667 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,240 back to the drawing board on the listening piece. 668 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,880 Now what have we missed actually has our, has our shared vision 669 00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:00,480 of where we're going to get to changed and, and establishing at 670 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,480 the beginning that this isn't easy. 671 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,880 It's not, it's not a fairy story, there aren't any happy 672 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,040 endings. It's going to be complex. 673 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,640 But if we can come, come to it with the right intent and 674 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,520 recognise that we are going to be learning along the way and 675 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:22,520 the story will change. So those conversations are 676 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,760 uncomfortable. Everyone's been in a project 677 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,880 where there's scope creep or the brief just wasn't clear at the 678 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,320 beginning. People didn't know what they 679 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,320 wanted. And you know, 18 months in, 680 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,400 you're realising actually they wanted something completely 681 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,440 different. I think that's the nature of, 682 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,000 of, of, of complexity. So I, I just think, I just think 683 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,000 it's saying this, this, it's the honest piece, which is actually, 684 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,680 we want different things. Can we, can we like, can we 685 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,800 agree on on a shared vision of where we want to get to and go 686 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,840 back to the drawing board and reading Often that insight where 687 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,960 things aren't working is perhaps someone who doesn't have a voice 688 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,480 at the table. So it's like, how do we seek out 689 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,240 those perspectives so we can find out about those things 690 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,280 early rather than late? So he just sees me so massive 691 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,400 thank you for your time. Excellent advice and tips for 692 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,560 project professionals. So thanks very much for joining 693 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,360 us. Thanks, Emma.