1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,840 Welcome to the APM. Podcast APM is the childhood 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,360 body for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,880 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,240 in this. Podcast I'm speaking to. 5 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:24,320 Suzanne Morland, Vice President of the Global Programme 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,960 Management Practise at ACOM about how to step up from being 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,160 a project manager to a programme manager. 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,920 Suzanne draws on her vast experience of leading mega 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,080 projects and shares her behind the scenes lessons from working 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,160 on some truly mind blowing programmes. 11 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:41,480 If you're thinking of entering the world of programme 12 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:44,440 management or want to hone your skills and learn from the best, 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:51,240 then listen on. Hi, Suzanne. 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,280 Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,080 I think a good place to start would be to ask you to tell us a 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,480 little bit about your career and your experience, specifically 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,319 going from being a project manager to becoming a programme 18 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:05,880 manager. Sure. 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:11,960 Back in too long ago to remember to mention, I was the director 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,880 of project delivery for a company called Chapter 2 M Hill 21 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,520 and I had several project teams who were delivering 22 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:24,760 infrastructure in water, environmental cleanup, 23 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,440 transportation. And I had an opportunity, I was 24 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:35,200 invited to go to the country of Panama to help them figure out 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,520 how they were going to expand the Panama Canal. 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,280 And that it's really during that experience that I got the bug. 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,200 I, I was bitten by what a programme can be, what it 28 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,120 offers, what it means to a community, what it means to a 29 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,400 country and, and delivering things differently from an 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:02,960 individual project. It's, it really is a, it's such 31 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:08,720 a different opportunity to bring benefits and to, to make 32 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,480 something more than just the asset that's being built to 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,200 provide those opportunities to the community, to the country, 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,920 to, to the people involved in delivering it. 35 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,800 So it's really the kind of big picture that you liked, bringing 36 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,840 benefits to society more broadly. 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,640 Yes, yes. And, and the challenge that, you 38 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:32,520 know, there's a, a different challenge in, in putting that 39 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,000 bigger puzzle together and making sure that you're on a 40 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,800 project. And we'll probably talk about 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,560 this more, but on a project you're really driving cost, 42 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,840 scope and schedule and delivering that safely. 43 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,920 And on a programme you are figuring out how to deliver all 44 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:54,280 of those individual scopes within a budget, on time, safely 45 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:59,080 and delivering those with the benefits, with the additional 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,880 benefits that come from how you put that together. 47 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,760 So that obviously that's what you enjoy. 48 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,440 It's the complexity and fitting the bits of the puzzle together. 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,040 Is that what, what aspects of the job do you enjoy the most? 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,320 Is it figuring out that side of things or is it seeing the 51 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,680 benefits? For me, really it's about 52 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,600 figuring out how that's going to happen and then building in the 53 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,880 the benefits delivery in a way that makes it integral. 54 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,720 So when when the leaders are looking at how things change, 55 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,600 how is this going to affect cost and how is this going to affect 56 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,000 the schedule? They also asked the question, 57 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,160 how is this going to affect our delivery of benefits or our 58 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,040 ability to deliver benefits and take that into consideration. 59 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,680 So it's it's built into the whole framework of how you're 60 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,120 delivering a programme. Can you tell us a bit more about 61 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,440 the Panama expansion programme? When was this? 62 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,960 How long ago did you work on this? 63 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:04,200 I went to Panama the first time in 2007 for a year, 18 months 64 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,160 it. That was early in the industry 65 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,520 of infrastructure programme management, what's also referred 66 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,560 to as mega projects. It was when that really became a 67 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,800 recognised delivery mechanism. London 2012 was one of the first 68 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,080 programme delivery structures. Panama Canal followed very 69 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,000 closely or actually was kind of in parallel at the same time as 70 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,240 that can. You give an idea a bit about the 71 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,640 programme and how much, what was the scope, what was it worth? 72 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,440 And if this is an early mega project, did you follow a 73 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,600 framework? Did you create your own 74 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,880 framework as you went along or did you borrow from other large 75 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:45,840 projects? Or? 76 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,320 I'd be curious because it must have felt like uncharted water. 77 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,720 Sorry for the analogy. It's OK. 78 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:53,760 It's OK. It really did it. 79 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,320 It really did feel and actually was unchartered at the time. 80 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,000 It was in 2007. And so if you think about 2007 81 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,480 and where we were with technology, it's very different 82 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,360 than where we are with technology today. 83 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,600 So we went to Panama and it hadn't been, there hadn't been 84 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:19,160 much time between the US Army Corps of Engineers turning the 85 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,520 Panama Canal back over to the Panamanians. 86 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,880 The US Army Corps of Engineers have been running the Panama 87 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,280 Canal since it had been built and they were, they were turning 88 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:34,000 it over to the Panamanians and the Panamanians wanted to put in 89 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,360 a new lock that was large enough. 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,480 If you think about the the ships, the container ships, up 91 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:45,800 until then, ships had been built to fit the Panama Canal because 92 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,200 it was a main shipping channel. They needed to be larger and so 93 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,440 they needed a larger channel. The Panama Canal expansion was 94 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,240 the largest earth moving earthworks project of its kind 95 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,480 in the history of the world. I'm not sure there's been a 96 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,960 larger one. There might have been in Dubai 97 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,520 when they were building the islands, but but they moved, 98 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,200 they created a lake, created a mountain, they moved that much 99 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,240 earth to build this canal. And it's, it spans from the 100 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,440 Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean parallel to the other 101 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,640 canals, but it's larger than the other canals to fit these what 102 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,960 are called post Panamax ships. So the other ones were Panamax 103 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,400 maximum size to fit through the Panama Canal. 104 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,800 And then they have now the larger ships which are called 105 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,680 post Panamax that fit the new canal. 106 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:40,000 So it's a huge programme, you know, even even for a developed 107 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,960 and mature programme, if we'd, you know, the UK has by far the 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,360 most mature programme management structure in the world. 109 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,880 But even if we were going into the UK to build this kind of a 110 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,120 canal, it would have been a huge undertaking. 111 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:04,240 But for Panama, they had been working of course on the running 112 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,840 the canal, but they hadn't been leading it, they hadn't been 113 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:09,160 owning it, they hadn't been managing it and they wanted to 114 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,240 be able to manage their own programmes in the future. 115 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,120 So we had as one of the main benefits going in that we would 116 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,520 teach the Panamanians how to manage their their own 117 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,360 programmes and their own infrastructure in the future. 118 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,200 We didn't know. So we were learning and teaching 119 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,920 all at the same time. How successful was the 120 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,000 programme? It, it was extremely successful. 121 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:39,920 It was the lowest claims of any major construction project. 122 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,200 It was set up and the contracts were, were written, they were 123 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,240 complete and concise. And then everything that was 124 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,920 said, you know, it was detailed out in those contracts was 125 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,000 followed by the Panamanians. So we put the structures in 126 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,360 place for them to make sure that they understood every single day 127 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,440 at every single construction site what was going on and they 128 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,680 documented it. And think about it was before 129 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,400 there was anything like Bluetooth, there was anything 130 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,360 like connectivity. You couldn't get documents 131 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,960 electronically from the canal up to the office. 132 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,320 We had to have runners out picking up the the daily logs 133 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,680 out from each other construction sites, yes. 134 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,160 Did it come in on budget? On time. 135 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,360 Well, that's kind of an interesting topic because for a 136 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,679 programme of this size, it's impossible to know when you're 137 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,200 starting what it's going to cost. 138 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,600 And so there's this whole theory that says over time, over 139 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,600 budget, over and over again. But if you measure against the 140 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,040 first estimate, you will be over cost and over time because you 141 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,640 just don't know enough at that at that point to have that as 142 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:00,720 your as your goal post. So it came in within the budget 143 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,760 that was forecast when the contract went out to the EPC 144 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:12,560 contractor with the the additional contingency that was 145 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:15,640 added once we knew all of the factors. 146 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,600 So probably midway into construction, the budget was 147 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,360 recast and because we knew enough then, right to say this 148 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,800 is what it's actually going to cost. 149 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,320 And it's also why claims were so low was because we understood we 150 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,040 didn't know enough at the beginning and we put in the 151 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,240 structures to to adapt as we went along. 152 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,760 What an interesting programme to work on. 153 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,880 So that was your first kind of proper programme management 154 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,000 experience. How long did you spend on that, 155 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,080 working on that? I was there the first, the first 156 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,120 phase that I was there was about 18 months. 157 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:57,880 I left for four or five months, went back and helped set up the 158 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,880 controls, the computer construction control system, 159 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,760 which I just talked about a minute ago. 160 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:10,360 And I was there, I don't know, eight months a year for that. 161 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:16,960 And I left and I went back again in 2015 for another six months, 162 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,400 I think. So you got hooked into programme 163 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,800 management then what? What, what did you take away? 164 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,520 If there was one lesson to take away from working on that mega 165 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,880 project, what, what would it be? I'm kind of digressing a bit, 166 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,160 but this is such an interesting programme to talk to you about. 167 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,000 It's if you, if you, if you could give one kind of piece of 168 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,560 advice or one lesson that you took away from that personally, 169 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:44,440 what what would that be? Well, I guess it's two things. 170 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:50,640 One that one is it was my first experience really outside of my 171 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:57,720 home culture and it really was eye opening learning that people 172 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,000 are people wherever, wherever you meet them, they're just 173 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,440 people. They have the same hopes and 174 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,440 dreams and you know, they're concerned about their families 175 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,080 and and getting through the day and coming to work and doing a 176 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,240 good job. So that was, you know, that was 177 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,040 very interesting and and personally insightful for me. 178 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,520 The other thing is kind of related is that programmes are 179 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,400 about people. And really the difference 180 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,240 between a programme and a project is a project is focused 181 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:31,720 on driving schedule and budget to, you know, safely deliver a 182 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,880 scope within budget and and to the schedule. 183 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,040 And a programme is really about how you organise people, the 184 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,080 people who work on it, the stakeholders, the funders, the 185 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,680 sponsors, how you get all of those people to work together, 186 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,480 to share a common vision and to to understand and feel like and 187 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,120 to know that they are part of something bigger and, and to 188 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,000 really engage with people in that way. 189 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,240 What have you learned about achieving that? 190 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,520 The people side of things to get everyone to work together to a 191 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,480 common vision and goal. That it starts with leaders and 192 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:15,200 I think that's that's a very common well known management 193 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,120 tenant is or leadership tenant, organisational tenant is that 194 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:26,560 you have to have leaders aligned and engaged and and championing 195 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,000 the kind of culture that that you want and that you need. 196 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,520 How do you make that happen in practise? 197 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,800 That's that's easy. Easier said than done, I 198 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,760 imagine. It is the, the, the way we do it 199 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,120 and the way that I've done it on programmes and you know, it's 200 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,600 trial and error. You, you work, work one way and 201 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,200 then something works if something works better than 202 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,720 something else. But it really is about, about 203 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,040 transparency. It's about being confident and 204 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,800 humble. It's about, you know, starting 205 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,960 out with the, the client organisations leader, programme 206 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,920 leader and their leadership organisation and making sure 207 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,760 that they are aligned and with that, that we are aligned with 208 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,560 what they are hoping to achieve. So we come in as the client 209 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,400 organisation, as a, as supporting the client 210 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,440 organisation. We're the, the consultant and we 211 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,320 need to understand what, what their vision is, what it is 212 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,040 they're trying to achieve. And then we need to help them 213 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,240 get there. So it's it's really how we start 214 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,080 that relationship, build that relationship and nurture that 215 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,280 relationship over time that makes all the difference. 216 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,320 How do you set off on the right foot? 217 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,600 How do you start a programme as a programme manager? 218 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,760 The best it can be. Well, I think there are three 219 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,600 things that need to happen. First, the first week that we 220 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,320 show up, we have a meeting with the client where we talk about 221 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,920 this is what was what we wrote in the proposal and hear the 222 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,200 client tell us what that meant to them. 223 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:12,440 So that we make sure that we have a common understanding of 224 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,160 what we said we were going to do, what they think we said we 225 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,400 were going to do. And then we talked about what 226 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:24,560 needs to happen in the next 6090 days to make sure that we hold 227 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:29,120 these two organisations or three organisations together so that 228 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,480 we now have one programme organisation. 229 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,600 And what what is that going to take? 230 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,040 What does that look like? Who are we going to work with on 231 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,680 the clients organisation? Who are the key stakeholders we 232 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,320 need to bring into these conversations? 233 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,960 And then we talked about these are the kinds of tools that we 234 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,600 need. We need to know who's making 235 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,160 decisions, who has authority to make decisions, what kind of 236 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,360 regulations, boundary, what we can do. 237 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,440 Like what are the laws, what are the rules, where are the funds 238 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,920 coming from and what can we spend that money on so that as 239 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,400 leaders we are all very clear about how this organisation will 240 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,680 run. And then we start working with 241 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,600 the different parts of the clients organisation, like their 242 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,160 finance group will work with our controls group to talk about how 243 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,400 what needs to be done, who's doing what, what are the 244 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,600 handoffs, what does that work look like? 245 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,360 And, and it's really a methodical step through of 246 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,120 putting up, putting those two organisations, we call it 247 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,320 zippering those organisations together. 248 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,440 And it really is a structured approach that if you miss those 249 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,760 steps, you will do that. At some point, those 250 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,840 relationships have to exist, those people have to work 251 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,080 together. So it'll either be done in this, 252 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,720 you know, in this upfront and and structured manner, or it'll 253 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,000 be done trying to clear up chaos later on. 254 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,600 OK, that's such a good point. The words that are coming 255 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,520 through to me is you talk about communication, relationships, 256 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,920 talking. So my, my next question was, how 257 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,040 does your role change when you leap from being a project 258 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:06,840 manager to becoming a programme manager? 259 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,880 And it seems evident to me that it's about, it's about the 260 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,840 people, like you said, it's about. 261 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,760 Is that the biggest difference really? 262 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,520 The biggest difference is about the relationships with people 263 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,000 and about your focus. So again, as a project manager 264 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,360 you are really focused on delivering a scope of work. 265 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,040 You need to have good people skills as a project manager 266 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,840 because you've got all of those people who are delivering for 267 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,320 you or with you as a programme manager. 268 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,280 It's a whole different field of play. 269 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,800 You've got stakeholders at every level, the people who are 270 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,520 funding the programme, the people who have authorised the 271 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,320 programme, the people who own the assets, the the the supply 272 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,960 chain, the people working on the programme. 273 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,960 You've got all of those people that you need to engage with and 274 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,040 bring them into a common understanding of the vision and 275 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,400 what needs to be achieved. And as a project manager, very 276 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,800 often you are focused on what is, what is the, what's 277 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,920 happening the next day, the next week on that schedule. 278 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,480 As a programme manager, you are focused on how are we 279 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,240 progressing for that ultimate outcome. 280 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,960 And of course, you look at the schedule, you look at the cost, 281 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,160 you pay attention to those things, but it's with an eye to 282 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:22,480 are they taking us to that vision? 283 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,640 We're APM, the only charter membership organisation for the 284 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,960 project profession. When you become an APM member, 285 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,480 you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an 286 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,920 impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. 287 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,480 Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support 288 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,760 your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you 289 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,600 reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. 290 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,640 Because when projects succeed, society benefits. 291 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,880 As a programme leader, what kind of skills do you need to 292 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,120 cultivate? I, I think the biggest one is 293 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:06,240 strategic thinking. You need to be able to see that 294 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,000 broader field of play and you need to be able to challenge, 295 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,280 you know, things that are coming in and understand where pieces 296 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,560 fit into the larger puzzle. Or if they don't fit, understand 297 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,040 how to move them off and out, you know, so they're not 298 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,560 distracting the, the work that needs to happen as a, as a 299 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,600 project manager, there's a lot more doing a lot more, you know, 300 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,200 roll up your sleeves and get in there and make sure that, that 301 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,520 things have been ordered and that, you know, you've got the 302 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,320 right people showing up on the job site. 303 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,400 And, and, and you know, the, the safety tailgate have, has, has 304 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,960 been conducted and, and that you've, you know, gotten the 305 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,680 permits. As a programme manager, you need 306 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,320 to be an extremely effective delegator. 307 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:01,040 You need to make sure that your team knows what needs to be 308 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,960 done, the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. 309 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,720 And then you need to get out of the way. 310 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,080 You need to coach, cheerlead, you know, motivate, but really 311 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,840 you're, you're responsible for building and, and facilitating 312 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,800 and fostering the culture that keeps that work moving forward, 313 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,080 keeps people engaged and keeps you all focused on that ultimate 314 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,640 outcome and the benefits that come with it. 315 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,320 Is that quite hard to do? If you've come from that very 316 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,880 detailed kind of project manager role, then being able to 317 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,520 delegate often perhaps with people you've never worked with 318 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,400 before? Have you got any advice around 319 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,000 that? Did you find that hard, or was 320 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,160 that something that came to you naturally? 321 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,760 I don't think I ever really thought about it. 322 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,960 I just, I was so moved by the potential that that programmes 323 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,000 bring that I, you know, it, for me, it felt like coming home. 324 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,400 I see some people really struggle with, with giving up 325 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,560 control. I see some people not 326 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,160 comfortable counselling clients, You know, the, the, the 327 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,880 difference, you know. Project manager is given a scope 328 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,320 of work. A programme manager helps figure 329 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,720 out what that what the scopes of work need to be and how those 330 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,960 different projects can best be put together and defined and 331 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,800 what those scopes of work are going to be. 332 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,320 And then how to bring people in, you know, who are the right 333 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,280 people to do that work? Is it local contractors? 334 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,720 Is it a big EPC firm? How is this, you know, something 335 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,880 in between those two and that so that the difference between the 336 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,080 certainty of being given a scope and the ambiguity of I know we 337 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,480 need to do this, how do we get it done? 338 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,640 People do struggle with that. Is that something you can pick 339 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,400 up, I guess as your confidence improves or is that just the way 340 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,960 you are as an individual? You either like it or you don't 341 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,920 relish it. Well, I, I think there's some of 342 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,040 both. You can pick it up and you will 343 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,120 get more confident as you begin making decisions and 344 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,920 understanding that, you know, I, I often say to people, the sun 345 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,440 is still going to rise in the East. 346 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,960 It's just, you know, it's not going to change the outcome of 347 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,840 your life. It's, you know, it's make a 348 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,680 decision. If you need to change the 349 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,440 decision, you can, right. So there, there are very few 350 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,560 decisions that, that you, you can't come back from, but the 351 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,400 ability to make a decision, the ability and the humility to say, 352 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,240 looks like we need to re, you know, reassess that decision 353 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,360 are, are two big pieces. And some people just are not 354 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,920 confident enough to make those decisions and and then be able 355 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,680 to say I think we need to change course. 356 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,600 What advice would you give around decision making? 357 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,160 Would you consult lots of people, go I think about it, 358 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,120 come back or how do you approach it? 359 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,520 I think it depends on the decision. 360 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,600 You know, there are some decisions that you need to make 361 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:10,640 now that you know, if you've got some supplies coming in and the 362 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,960 port has gone on strike, what do you do? 363 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,520 You need to make that decision right now. 364 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,720 You've got longer lead decisions where you can take in more 365 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,200 information and you can assess situations and look at your 366 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,320 options, consult a lot of people. 367 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,320 The thing is you set those structures up ahead of time so 368 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,560 you're not trying to figure out how to make decisions. 369 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,760 You've got the frameworks, you know who you're consulting on 370 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,040 which just different decisions. We call that a racy, right? 371 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,320 Who's responsible, who's accountable, who gets consulted 372 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,600 and who just gets told. So you're not going around 373 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,040 getting everyone's opinion. There are people who are who, 374 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,800 you know, you need to consult on particular decisions. 375 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,640 And then there are people you just let them know this is the 376 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,000 decision and things need to get implemented. 377 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,120 But I think those are the things that that's, you know, setting 378 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,040 up those structures, especially for somebody who's new into 379 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,320 being a programme manager, it's critical so that you have a 380 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,600 structure and a framework and support for what you need to do. 381 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,360 You don't need to figure it out for every different decision. 382 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,120 What are the most common mistakes do you think new 383 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:24,440 programme managers make and how do you go about avoiding them in 384 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,560 my? Experience The first biggest 385 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:32,000 mistake new programme managers make is they get right into 386 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,600 delivery, they get a programme assignment and they start doing 387 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,360 what they know. Let's get those projects, let's 388 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,440 get, you know, let's get those projects moving and well, the 389 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,880 programme is clearly a bunch of projects. 390 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,800 A programme is an organisation to deliver those projects. 391 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,680 So you've got to build that organisation and you have to 392 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,680 take the time to build those relationships with the client, 393 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,440 with the client's organisation. Set the framework in place. 394 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,600 You can't pull a a plan to manage a programme from 395 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,360 something you've done before and say it's going to work here 396 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,520 because they're all different. You can take the framework and 397 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,320 say this is how we structure it, but you can't pull the plan 398 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,080 forward. I wondered if you are preparing 399 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,040 to become a programme manager or you're early on in your career 400 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,520 as a programme manager. How much thought should you give 401 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,040 to leadership about your style, your approach? 402 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,960 Is it worthwhile thinking about what kind of leader you want to 403 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,000 be before you embark on a role like this? 404 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,600 And what kind of leader are you? I think that emotional maturity 405 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:48,720 is a critical factor and you can only be emotionally mature if 406 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,240 you understand yourself and you can only understand yourself if 407 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,280 you do that that work. You read about leadership, make 408 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,400 decisions, conscious decisions about how you want to lead and 409 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,800 then practise those. You are not born a leader. 410 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,760 Leadership is learned. You know, you're, you're, you're 411 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,120 born with whatever you know, human firing you've got. 412 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,760 But leadership is a, is a learned skill and how you lead 413 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,120 people is something that you learn. 414 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,400 And the ability to, to get people to follow you is probably 415 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,440 the most critical skill of a programme manager. 416 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,520 And so to answer your question, yes, I think somebody who's new 417 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,120 in their career or anybody deciding they want to be a 418 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,720 programme manager needs to examine what kind of programme 419 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,360 manager do I want to be? What kind of programmes do I 420 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:42,840 want to lead? Do I want to enjoy this or do I 421 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,520 want to strong arm people? And I can tell you that in 422 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,640 today's world, strong arm doesn't work in a programme. 423 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,680 What does work? What makes for the best 424 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,400 programme managers? The, the secret to success 425 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,000 really is being able to get people to follow you, being able 426 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,160 to articulate a vision in a way that people see themselves in 427 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,080 it, in a way that draws people into that, that bigger thing 428 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,560 that the bigger reason we're doing whatever you're doing in 429 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,680 as a programme rather than as individual projects, because it 430 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,360 is bigger than any of the individual projects or 431 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,880 individual people. You know, we, we talk about 432 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,440 leaving a legacy, but it's the, the legacy for each of the 433 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,360 individual people, what they're going to tell their friends, 434 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,920 their family, their, their grandchildren about what they 435 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,160 did in their lives. This is going to be one of those 436 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,920 stories. Well, that's pretty powerful 437 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,080 really, to think about it in that way. 438 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,320 Is that how you think about the work that you do? 439 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,800 Absolutely. Which programmes have stuck with 440 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,840 you personally the most? The Panama Canal, what it did 441 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:58,880 for the Panamanians and, and for programme management for the 442 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,600 people of Spain and Italy, because they were the, that's 443 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,440 where the contractors came from and where a lot of the major 444 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,920 equipment was designed and built. 445 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,760 So it's, you know, it's a story of a world really growing up and 446 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,280 doing great things that changed the world, right? 447 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,600 I mean, if you look at the nature of shipping and the 448 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,040 movement of commodities, I mean, just so many aspects of that. 449 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,920 One programme touched so many lives and changed, changed so 450 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,160 many things. Another programme that I talked 451 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,920 about quite a bit is the FIFA World Cup in Qatar. 452 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:44,080 And when we got there, Qatar was a Doha in Qatar was a small city 453 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,800 and now it's a metropolis and it's beautiful. 454 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,280 And a lot of that was the master plan for FIFA World Cup. 455 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,960 And how all of the different engineering companies, 456 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,600 construction companies, designers from around the world 457 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,320 came together to talk to figure out how they were going to put 458 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,080 together all of the infrastructure, bridges, roads, 459 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,320 the airport, you know, the the buildings, the facilities, How 460 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,440 all of that came together and changed the country of Qatar. 461 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,840 And how we see the people who had lived in a way that that 462 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,600 none of us, a lot of us had not experienced because Qatar had 463 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,840 been really a country on its own prior to all of that 464 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,760 involvement. In fact, on some huge 465 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,320 programmes, what are the pieces of advice that you wish someone 466 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,080 had given you when you were starting out? 467 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,360 Well, I, I wish I'd had more to read. 468 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:52,240 I recommend that people read case studies, read London 2012 469 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:58,200 as a phenomenal library of, of learning about how they put 470 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,240 things together and and the thought process. 471 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,840 I would, I would read a lot about major programmes. 472 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,240 I would network with, learn from experienced programme managers. 473 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,560 You're going to need those relationships when things get 474 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,640 tough and you don't have, you know, if, if you're out there 475 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,440 and you don't have somebody to talk to about, you know, this 476 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,760 thing looks like it's about to fall apart, you know, what is it 477 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,240 I'm missing? What am I not seeing? 478 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,440 Having other experienced programme managers kind of in 479 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,440 your in your bullpen really really makes a difference. 480 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,600 And is can that can that be informal as much as formal? 481 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,200 Yes, I, I think, I, I think, you know, we, we build these formal 482 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,280 structures to support informal relationships. 483 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,240 I think, you know, relationships between people are pretty much 484 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,920 how you, how you have that relationship. 485 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,920 So you're going to find people that you trust who you can talk 486 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,480 to. I think if you're having problem 487 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,560 on a programme, you're not going to put it on a on a chat board, 488 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,680 you're going to, you're going to contact a an individual or a few 489 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,320 individuals and say what have you seen? 490 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,160 What am I missing and help me think through this? 491 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,560 Are people willing to help in general? 492 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,120 Always this is something that I've learned and it's I, I think 493 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,440 it's, I think it's a truism for people in general, but for 494 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,400 programme directors especially, people love to tell their story. 495 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,160 And programme directors have a, they have, they have solved some 496 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,920 of the world's greatest challenges or been on the 497 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:41,040 forefront as these challenges are being solved and being mad 498 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:46,000 and, and overcome. And and they are to a person 499 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:52,680 always interested in providing an opinion and helping think 500 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,440 through things and very generous as a community. 501 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,760 What's the hardest bit about being a programme manager? 502 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,600 The people. And then I'll ask you, what's 503 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,240 the best fit? What's the best fit? 504 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,040 Are you going to say the people is the people? 505 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,640 Yeah, you know, the the technical aspects of a programme 506 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,480 are often fascinating. Like how are you going to build 507 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,120 the stadiums quickly enough and, and in the right places that you 508 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,400 can get people around to see as many games as you know, all of 509 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,200 that I think is fascinating, but is solvable given the technology 510 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,280 and and the the state of human development. 511 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,480 Now the really fascinating part is how do you bring people 512 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,760 together to work together, to be a part of something bigger, to 513 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,280 really want to achieve that vision and and deliver those 514 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,400 outcomes to have an effect and an impact on the world and the 515 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,960 way programmes are are meant to. Since you first became a 516 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,120 programme manager, So what 20 years ago? 517 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,280 How has programme management changed over that those two 518 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:14,480 decades, roughly? The way it's changed is clients 519 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,360 have matured. Clients understand a lot more 520 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,680 what they're looking for and what they need. 521 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,720 I think another way that it's changed, you know, 2025 years 522 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:33,080 ago programme management was new and it didn't have the overtime 523 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,520 over budget over and over again shadow hanging over it, which 524 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,880 is, you know, I already said I, I believe is, is unfair and, and 525 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,800 unrealistic way to look at programmes. 526 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,520 But as a, as we move forward with programme management, there 527 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,120 are things that we understand now we didn't know then, like 528 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,680 the importance of taking the time to set up the organisation 529 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,600 that will deliver the programme. You know, it's a, it's a 530 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,440 separate being a separate entity and it needs to be put together 531 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,920 correctly. The opportunity to bring the 532 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,600 ALT, the entire supply chain and all of the stakeholders into the 533 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,880 programme so that they are helping deliver and also 534 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,520 receiving benefit from the programme so that it's not a 535 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,800 projects are often tension between the project and the 536 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,600 contractor. You know, it's all change orders 537 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,320 and you know, daily drive to scope and schedule and and 538 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,080 really it's about managing change on programmes. 539 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,360 It's a whole different idea about managing change. 540 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,040 It's not about, you know, I'm going to get as much for me as I 541 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,120 can. I'm going to hold back from you 542 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,440 as much as I can. It's really a more win win. 543 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,320 Integrating all of those parties into that vision to be part of 544 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,120 what's being delivered. I think that's how it's changed. 545 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,520 Suzanne, it's been absolutely so interesting speaking to you and 546 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,480 getting behind the scenes of Panama programme and also FIFA 547 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,440 and Qatar. So that's been brilliant 548 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,360 speaking to you this. Has been fun, Thank you. 549 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,080 Thanks again to Suzanne for joining us and to you for 550 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,639 listening to the APM. Podcast, I hope you'll. 551 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:29,480 Agree that Suzanne has given a riveting insight into what it 552 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,440 means to be a great programme manager, and I certainly found 553 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,440 it hugely inspiring to hear from someone who clearly loves their 554 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,199 job. Anyway, don't forget to look out 555 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,600 for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever. 556 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,639 You get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 557 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:46,960 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 558 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,400 APM Podcast at thinkpublishing dot. 559 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,000 Co.uk. Spotify users can also send us. 560 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,320 Feedback directly. Within the Spotify app. 561 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,360 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 562 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,600 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 563 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,840 visit APM. Dot org.uk.