1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:03,700 Hello and welcome to the APM podcast. 2 00:00:03,700 --> 00:00:06,200 APM is a childhood body for the project profession. 3 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:09,500 My name is Mike Heinen, online, editor for apm's, project 4 00:00:09,500 --> 00:00:12,300 journal, and your host. And our topic today is contracts 5 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:15,800 and collaboration contracts. Create legally binding, 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,200 obligations between the parties involved in a project, they 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,600 describe the nature of those obligations and the actions that 8 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,900 can be taken, if they are not met as such, the contract is a 9 00:00:24,907 --> 00:00:27,600 foundational document, whose content will come to define the 10 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,400 project and how the work unfolds. 11 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,300 It is there to provide certainty and protection to the parties, 12 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:35,900 but there may be an opportunity for contracts to be used to 13 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:38,700 create ongoing collaborative relationships, rather than 14 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:41,100 simply defining strict requirements, and being regarded 15 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:43,600 as a tool to give parties leverage, in the event of 16 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,400 acrimonious circumstances to find out a bit more about how 17 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,400 project professionals can enhance their knowledge of 18 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,700 contracts and get more from their relationships. 19 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:54,800 With contractors, I sought the input of a couple of experts. 20 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:59,600 First up, I interviewed Sarah shooter, Sarah is an independent 21 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,700 solicitor Advocate consultant and trainer whose company 22 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,700 shooter Consulting limited as a niche practice in project, 23 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:09,000 management and law. She's also running a webinar 24 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,100 series for apm's contracts and procurements Sig entitled basic 25 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:13,500 contract law for project managers. 26 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:16,400 You can find a link to the first installment in the episode 27 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:24,900 description. Hi Sarah. 28 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:27,200 Thanks for joining us to begin with, please. 29 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,900 Could you introduce yourself and give a bit of background to your 30 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,000 role and your experience with contracts. 31 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:35,400 Yes, of course. Thanks my gets really, really 32 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,300 exciting to be here on this, AP and podcast, thank you for the 33 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:42,700 invitation. So I'm an independent solicitor 34 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:44,700 Advocate. I work for myself. 35 00:01:44,900 --> 00:01:47,900 My little company, choose, a Consulting limited. 36 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,900 We've been going for about seven and a half years. 37 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:55,100 Now, I specialize in construction, engineering and 38 00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:58,400 infrastructure, projects, including technology projects, 39 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:03,200 and I'm working on projects of All Sorts, but mostly Within 40 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,200 those sectors at the moment. If I look around my desk, I've 41 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,400 got a couple of any C3, contracts and subcontracts. 42 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,700 I've got a Professional Services engagement for project manager 43 00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:19,700 and a supervisor to look at for one of my clients I've got my 44 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:25,600 collaborative workspace, open for a webinar that I'm sort of 45 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,200 emceeing in September, on alternative dispute, resolution 46 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:32,600 and I've got a nondisclosure agreement for Consulting. 47 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,800 Engineer who I want to help him to get through and to nail a 48 00:02:36,808 --> 00:02:39,000 deal down. So there's lots going on. 49 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,800 For sure, at the moment and summer season is no excuse. 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,000 I've also got a pile of accounts in front of me because at this 51 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,800 time of year, when my kids are off holiday and work, come 52 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,100 naturally quietens down and deadlines elongates a little bit 53 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:56,600 through projects, then I try and get some of the infrastructure 54 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,800 as I call it to my own company done as well. 55 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,900 And that includes things like the accounts, updating our 56 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:04,600 template. It's getting some new training 57 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,300 workshops ready for September. So yeah, we've got quite a lot 58 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:10,500 on. We're juggling lot, but never 59 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:12,700 complain. And always keep trucking. 60 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:16,000 We're talking today about contracts for project 61 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,100 professionals. So I want to start off with a 62 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,800 very simple question, what are contracts? 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,000 And why are they important in a project context? 64 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:25,800 That's a really great place to start. 65 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,800 A contract, is really an arrangement, a deal. 66 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,700 It is the means by which you Regulate, an arrangement between 67 00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:40,300 two or more parties, generally speaking contracts, all over the 68 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:42,000 world are what we call bilateral. 69 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,600 So there between two people or two organizations, or one of 70 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,200 each you can of course get multi-party contracts as well as 71 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,600 the partnering variety of the alliance in variety and 72 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,700 contracts come in all different shapes and sizes. 73 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:59,300 So right at the very basic end you've got what we call a simple 74 00:03:59,300 --> 00:04:02,600 contract which is works and services for money. 75 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:06,200 Me and right at the other end of the spectrum, you've got super 76 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,300 complicated network of project contracts, which might have side 77 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:13,600 agreements, which might have third party involvement, which 78 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,200 might have all sorts of stuff to do with stakeholders and funding 79 00:04:17,899 --> 00:04:22,000 agencies and local public bodies and that sort of thing, but 80 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,700 whatever size and shape of contact you've got, however, 81 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:28,000 complex or simple. It is the hugely important in a 82 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,800 project context because they regulate the relationship 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,300 between the Teas. And therefore the parties 84 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:40,500 understand what it is that is being done or delivered or 85 00:04:40,500 --> 00:04:43,700 procured whatever the correct verb is that hat, that attaches 86 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:48,500 to, that contract for an amount of money. you've described how 87 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:52,600 contracts appear on a spectrum from simple to complex, but are 88 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,100 their components that are to be found in all contracts 89 00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:59,700 irrespective of their level of complexity, Yeah, there are 90 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:02,800 actually and in order to have a contract in law, you have to 91 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,500 have these components. So it's not that their 92 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:08,100 components of a typical contract of such, but actually that if 93 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:11,100 you want to have a contract in the eyes of the law, then you 94 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:15,900 need to have these components. Now anybody who has listened to 95 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:22,100 the APM, webinar series that I'm doing for the second time, we'll 96 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:25,500 have heard in episode 1, what those components are now. 97 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:30,300 If you haven't heard that, let me Let me in let you in on that 98 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:32,900 on that secret. You need to have five components 99 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:35,300 of a contract. The first is that you need to 100 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:40,800 have an offer so that is an offer from one party to the 101 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,700 other. To either do work. 102 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,300 If it's coming from the seller or to go out to the market and 103 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:49,500 ask for work. If you're the buyer of works or 104 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:52,200 Services then you need to have the opposite, which is what we 105 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,200 call acceptance. So it's an acceptance by the 106 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,000 buyer of the sellers works or services. 107 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:02,000 Or it's an acceptance by the seller to what the buyer is 108 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,700 wanting to to buy. Now, in order to mesh that 109 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,500 together you need something called consideration which is 110 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:11,800 normally money when we're talking projects but it maybe 111 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,100 money's worth, it doesn't have to be cash as such but it must 112 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:18,800 be something which is unidentifiable swap between the 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,000 parties. For those works and services 114 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,200 that are being done. We also need an intention. 115 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,800 We call it an intention to to create legal relations. 116 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,200 And in essence, if you have a written contract, that will be 117 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,700 taken for granted because you will have signatures to the 118 00:06:35,707 --> 00:06:37,700 contract. If you've got an exchange of 119 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:41,500 emails that can perform a similar function with much more 120 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:44,700 informal oral contracts, that's a bit more tricky because you 121 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:47,600 haven't got any written evidence to show what that is. 122 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,800 But if the parties agree it, and they can exchange a note on it, 123 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,600 then again, that will more or less servers as the correct 124 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,900 component for that and then we need something called Acity now 125 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:03,100 capacity in commercial contracts is all about an authorized 126 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:06,500 signatory. A person who has the authority 127 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:11,000 on behalf of the organization to enter into the contract and if 128 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,700 you are an individual, then you have authority on behalf of 129 00:07:13,700 --> 00:07:17,400 yourself so capacity, tends not to be too difficult in 130 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,700 commercial contracts either. So there you have it. 131 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:23,300 Five elements for a contract in law. 132 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:26,600 Why is it important for project professionals to have a good 133 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,500 grasp of contracts and not to regard them as just something 134 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:31,100 for the legal department to deal with? 135 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:34,900 Yeah, that's a really good question and it is so important 136 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:37,100 for project professionals to have a good grasp. 137 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,200 The first is that for themselves and for their organization to 138 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,100 understand what are the works. All the services that they 139 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:47,300 themselves are delivering for their client. 140 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:51,000 What are those promises that they have made or probably have 141 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,800 been made on their behalf? And then they are delivering 142 00:07:53,900 --> 00:07:57,200 Going for their organization. So you've got to understand that 143 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,300 in order to deliver firstly, what you're supposed to be 144 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:03,500 delivering but also to then, think about how to do it. 145 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:07,400 Effectively efficiently. And of course profitably the 146 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,900 other angle for project professionals, depends on the 147 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:14,300 role and for certain project professionals you're going to 148 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:17,100 need to have a better understanding of other contracts 149 00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:21,200 in the network of the project. For example, if you are 150 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:27,400 appointed as a contract 200 JCT contract or your appointed as 151 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,300 the NEC capitalized project manager, you're going to need to 152 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:34,100 understand what it is that the contractors delivering for the 153 00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:37,700 client because you're there as the contract administrator, 154 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:41,500 you're there as the person who is going to be looking at the 155 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:44,800 work that's been done, that's going to be certifying what 156 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,300 money is going to be paid over and perhaps making judgment 157 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,500 calls and decisions about Works which haven't been done very 158 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:53,400 well. All services which haven't been 159 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,900 completely Added and therefore you don't want to certify that 160 00:08:55,900 --> 00:08:59,300 money ought to be paid. So you know, the commercial 161 00:08:59,300 --> 00:09:02,900 details of those other contracts can be blacked out can be 162 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:05,800 redacted, but you do as a project professional who is 163 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,800 dealing with being if you like an agent between the parties, 164 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,800 you're going to need to understand what the scope of 165 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,800 that other contract is and perhaps other contracts around 166 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,400 the outside as well. What details within a contract 167 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:24,000 should project professionals? Pay special attention to Okay, 168 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,100 so the first thing that they need to pay attention to is the 169 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:30,500 scope that's going to be the scope of Works themselves or the 170 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:32,700 scope of services that are going to be delivered. 171 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:35,700 And again, both within their own contract. 172 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:38,300 But also with any contracts, which they are helping to 173 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:42,100 administer through their Professional Services, they're 174 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:45,500 going to need to also look at payment terms, because if you're 175 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:49,500 a certify, you need to know what payment to be certifying. 176 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:53,000 When, to be doing it, how frequently to be doing it and 177 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,200 perhaps, Might even be details in the contract such as the 178 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,300 format to use or template documents or a system that you 179 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,500 need to have access to in order to be able to do that 180 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:07,800 certification process for other project professionals as well. 181 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,800 In particular for project managers, it's a really good 182 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,700 idea to have a special look at the contract processes. 183 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,100 Now there'll be tons of different processes but you can 184 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,400 focus in on things like problem solving. 185 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,300 Ooh, okay. What happens if a dispute 186 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:27,500 arises? What is the process that the 187 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:30,200 parties are going to use? How long is it going to take 188 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,800 should any third parties be involved other important 189 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,600 processes for project managers or things like a completion 190 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,200 process? What does completion mean? 191 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,700 How is it certified who needs to come and inspect? 192 00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:46,300 Are there any commissioning tests should videos and 193 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:48,100 photographs be kept excetera, Etc. 194 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:51,100 So the contract will have lots of detail in it. 195 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:53,400 About various processes that project. 196 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,700 Smells need to pay attention to and project managers in 197 00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:59,200 particular need to pay attention to those ones. 198 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,700 And I suppose, if I think about it that the other process to pay 199 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:05,100 attention to would be the dealing of any risk, which 200 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:09,500 arises those are quite well established in many forms of 201 00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:11,900 standard contract. But again, there's something to 202 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:15,400 pay attention to, there will be time scales to work to. 203 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,400 There will be paperwork that needs to be exchanged and go 204 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,300 backwards and forwards and then maybe assessments that need to 205 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:24,300 be done as well by the project manager. 206 00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:27,900 So, I mean, you know, you could say could project professional, 207 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,200 good pay attention to every contract term but but one never 208 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,900 has time to do all of those things. 209 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:35,200 So, for a project manager, those would be the three. 210 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,000 I would concentrate on risk management, completion and 211 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,000 money. And I suppose the fourth one 212 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,000 which is a good one to have up your sleeve would be problem, 213 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,900 solving and dispute resolution. Can you tell us a bit about 214 00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:51,400 Express and implied terms in the contract and what to watch out 215 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,400 for? Yes, of course. 216 00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:57,000 It's pretty simple, actually Express. 217 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,300 Terms are those which are expressed which have been 218 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:04,300 written down, which have been agreed between the parties, 219 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,100 whether orally or in writing. So an Express term is something 220 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:13,500 that you can see and an implied term is the opposite. 221 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:16,400 An implied term is silent. It's invisible. 222 00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:19,900 It may be something which are the parties have agreed but 223 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:22,900 haven't written down. It may be something which they 224 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:26,000 haven't. Gust at all, in which case there 225 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,100 are scenarios where the law and this is done through a court or 226 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:33,200 through an adjudicator, will step in and literally imply a 227 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,300 term into a contract such that the contract will be interpreted 228 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:43,200 using that employed term. So implied, terms can be quite 229 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:46,000 useful. They can also be a bit scary 230 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,100 because, of course, they are invisible, and that makes them 231 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:51,700 in certain so people like Xpress terms, because you can see them 232 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:53,900 in front of you. And because there, You can 233 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:56,500 understand the regulation of the relationship between the 234 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,500 parties. But implied terms, they can be 235 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:03,800 positive, they can be negative. So, positive, implied term would 236 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,700 be act reasonably and - implied term would be, don't commit 237 00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:12,600 fraud in your application for payment, you know, things like 238 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,500 that, which people say, yeah. Okay, fair enough. 239 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:16,900 I understand those, I don't need to write them down. 240 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,600 They sound perfectly sensible and, you know, and that's 241 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,100 absolutely fine. But there are other employed 242 00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,400 term. Terms which always come back to 243 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,500 the threshold of reasonableness in law. 244 00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:30,800 So if you want to do something, which isn't going to be measured 245 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,400 or benchmarked against the test of reasonableness, then you want 246 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,200 to make it Xpress. For example, the work must be 247 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,900 completed within three months, okay? 248 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,600 In the absence of giving that Express term in the contract 249 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,800 written down or agreed orally, the court would imply, or the 250 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,100 law would imply an implied term which would be the works. 251 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:54,300 Must be finished within a Reasonable time. 252 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,200 And the reasonable time would be considered of all the 253 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,700 circumstances in which that work is being done. 254 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:06,100 Including resource availability, time of year, whether there are 255 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:09,300 any subcontractors involved have complicated, etc, etc. 256 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,500 So if you want to do something and have the certainty about it, 257 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:16,200 the best way to do that is to include the statement as an 258 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,500 Express term. What are some of the risks 259 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,100 associated with poor practice around contracts? 260 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:24,500 Now what could happen? Example, if a project 261 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:27,200 professional doesn't give due care and attention to the terms 262 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,400 of a contract. That's it. 263 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,200 That's a great question. It's something that I often come 264 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,500 across through, lack of Education, really and training 265 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:39,600 of project managers. And this is what I something 266 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,600 like this podcast is such a great opportunity to get that 267 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,600 message out there for project managers. 268 00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:49,000 There's lots of risks and they and it comes back to to actually 269 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,000 the question about having a good grasp of contracts. 270 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,700 The first is that you need to project managers need to be 271 00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:59,400 aware of Their Own. Tracked. 272 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,800 So if you don't deliver your own Services properly that can put 273 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,400 you in breach of your own contract or your organization's 274 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,800 contract more likely and that could be also professional 275 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,700 negligence and that's, you know, hideous for all sorts of 276 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:17,000 reasons, you know, on a wider sort of project level. 277 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:22,900 If a project manager isn't playing their part then that the 278 00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:25,600 the agency role. If you like the certifier role, 279 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,000 the independent assessor role that they Play that they broke a 280 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,000 between that the client and the contractor is is is poorly 281 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,000 regulated and is liable to be very fragile or able to be 282 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,500 vulnerable to disputes. And basically, nobody really 283 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:44,500 knows what they're doing. So then everybody is doing what 284 00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:47,400 they always do and they and they know solidly within their own 285 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,500 technical expertise what they're doing, but they miss the nuances 286 00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:53,600 and the subtleties of the contract which are the bits that 287 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,200 regulate where money flows? How time works? 288 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,400 Who needs to do what when What is, you know, what is triggered 289 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,700 by one party when somebody else does does a particular action? 290 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,700 So the risks are that the project unravels not in a 291 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,300 technical sense because technical people know their 292 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:14,900 stuff and they will get to the end of the project, but it 293 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:20,700 unravels in a governance side it unravels in a in a maturity side 294 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,600 and it unravels in the sense of a relationship side because we 295 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,100 don't have that tightness that regulator contract process which 296 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,800 will Here and guide people step-by-step to the end. 297 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,700 How can project professionals take a more active or proactive 298 00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:39,400 role in the Contracting process to help mitigate some potential 299 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,600 risks? Yeah. 300 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,700 I absolutely Advocate all of that and trying to give my 301 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:48,500 project manager. Clients, a voice and encouraging 302 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:53,600 those in-house project managers within Contracting functions to 303 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,600 try and be a bit more vocal pre-contract in procurement in. 304 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,300 In stage because they are the ones and this is literal. 305 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,800 In some cases, get handed the contract and told to go off and 306 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,900 get on with it. You know, our job is done and 307 00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:13,500 hands are washed and pre contract and procurement folks, 308 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:16,500 get on with their next. Prospect the project manager. 309 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:20,000 Meanwhile, is given something which they've never seen before. 310 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,700 They haven't had any input into let alone be able to perhaps 311 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:29,900 even influence how the terms of the the of the contractor put 312 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:31,700 together. I was actually looking at one 313 00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:34,300 last week. This is a really good example. 314 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:38,700 Actually, a project manager for an NEC subcontract. 315 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,500 The sub contract was negotiated and the standard term reads that 316 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:46,400 a particular action has to happen within 3 weeks. 317 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:53,300 Now, the subcontractor has had that term reduced from three 318 00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:59,600 weeks down to two weeks and the Tractor, which is the 319 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,800 subcontractors client has had that term increased from three 320 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,800 weeks to four weeks. So suddenly people who before 321 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,000 have to do in the vanilla form, do something within 3 weeks have 322 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,200 either got less time than they thought. 323 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:16,000 Or as a bonus, I got more time than they thought and the 324 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,800 project manager on dealing with that, the subcontractor has only 325 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,900 very recently been alerted to the fact that they now have two 326 00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:25,100 weeks to do something rather than three weeks. 327 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:29,600 And it's those kind of things where project Jurors could 328 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,400 really useful e, both be informed but also be consulted 329 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,600 on, you know, you have to apply the real life to this stuff. 330 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,100 What does it mean for that project manager to have only 2 331 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,900 weeks to complete? Whatever the action is rather 332 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:48,000 than three weeks is it possible? Is it okay, great? 333 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,400 If it is but if it isn't always puts the organization at risk, 334 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,600 or with more resource has to be pulled together in order to have 335 00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:00,200 the completion. Evidently in capably, within a 336 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,900 two-week period rather than a three-week period, Then the 337 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:04,900 project manager is going to have to be very agile. 338 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:08,200 Is going to have to book to Pivot themselves in order to be 339 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:09,900 able to do that. And of course, if they don't 340 00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:13,700 know that exist, how can they possibly plan to deliver the 341 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,000 services that they that they need to deliver? 342 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,000 In your experience to contracts. Tend to be viewed negatively. 343 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,400 I is something that's only referred to, in an adversarial 344 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,500 situation. Where are they regarded 345 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:28,000 positively as the foundation for a good business relationship? 346 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,900 Well, that of course is exactly how they should be saying. 347 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:35,000 I mean the contract is it is what it is, in the sense that it 348 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,500 is, the the document, hopefully, it's a document that makes life 349 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,400 a lot easier. The document, by which the 350 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,700 relationship is regulated, and I come back to this all the time 351 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:46,800 because I think that is how it should be viewed. 352 00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:52,400 And certainly views differ, as to the usefulness of contracts 353 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:56,100 and whether they are viewed positively or negatively and I 354 00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:59,300 guess, depending on any given situation depending on which 355 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,500 side if you like, and there's a, there's an issue with sides as 356 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:06,000 well. You could say that, you know, 357 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,000 one term is positive for one party and negative for another 358 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,400 or one process is helpful to one party. 359 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,700 But, you know, unhelpful and burdensome to another so it does 360 00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:17,500 largely depend on the pair of eyes that is At it. 361 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:21,700 But I try to get my clients to look at contracts as the 362 00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:27,300 regulating mechanism as the set of processes and tools that they 363 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:30,800 have that have been agreed. And in some cases that their 364 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,600 organizations have paid a lot of money for to have negotiated on 365 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,000 their behalf. Not always, of course, a lot of 366 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,400 it's done in house, but but you know, sometimes there is an 367 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,900 investment piece. So what's the point of having 368 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:45,700 made that investment whether it's time? 369 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:49,200 Money, external. Internal people have needed to 370 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,500 come together to put into shape this contract into being, to 371 00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:56,800 sign it, to send it through various gateways and governance 372 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,700 and legal and everything else only for everybody to ignore it 373 00:20:59,708 --> 00:21:03,600 and do what they always do. So, in that sense, when you talk 374 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,700 about the, the risks, about poor practice, and why it's useful, 375 00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:11,800 and helpful to project managers to really kind of stand up and 376 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,600 say, look, I need to see this contract, I want to have a part 377 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,800 in the negotiation of it. I want to be consulted. 378 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,500 Because I'm going to be the one who's delivering there. 379 00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:23,400 Sits my neck on the Block. Then all of those things come 380 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,100 together to say, well, we should be viewing contracts in a 381 00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:29,700 positive way. They aren't, they aren't there 382 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:31,600 just to be dusted off when things go wrong. 383 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,000 Because if, when things have gone wrong it's too late was 384 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,100 actually the contract is there to help you and to steer you 385 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:42,500 through all of the tools and processes and to help you to 386 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:45,600 anticipate and have foresight about things, which could go 387 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,800 wrong or which might go Go on or which look like they might be 388 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,800 going wrong in which case there's stuff in the contract 389 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,100 that's going to help you to bring it back on track, whether 390 00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:58,200 it's by risk management, or early warning, processes or 391 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,900 flagging up notices and you know, pulling it, pulling an a 392 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:05,500 an Emergency meeting together, that sort of thing. 393 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,700 The contract will have that kind of thing in it. 394 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:11,600 Within projects decisions often have to be made very rapidly. 395 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,400 What is the implication when a quick decision creates working 396 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,000 Arrangements that aren't covered by an existing contract? 397 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:23,400 I think this happens very often and I think it's all credit to 398 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,100 project managers micro decision-making and ability to 399 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:31,000 Pivot that they can do these things confidently. 400 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,500 And in most cases, fairly capably, there are risks, of 401 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:38,300 course attached to creating working Arrangements outside of 402 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,500 the On track, not least that you might do a heap of work and not 403 00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:46,600 get paid for it, which I suppose is that another sort of big dose 404 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,000 of the real life bit of delivering contracts. 405 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,400 The question around project manager, Authority is an 406 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,100 interesting one because if the project manager is given 407 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:59,800 sufficient authority to create these kind of working 408 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,300 arrangements and we get the term of payment Etc sorted then 409 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:07,700 actually, that can work very, very well and it can, it can 410 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:09,600 push through things. He's speedily that might 411 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,800 otherwise be slowed down by some, you know, torturous 412 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,800 governance process or have to go through a bunch of stakeholders 413 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,300 or whatever it happens to be, of course, depending on the size of 414 00:23:20,308 --> 00:23:22,900 the contract, and the amount of stakeholders that one has to 415 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:27,600 talk to you about this stuff but those informal arrangements are 416 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,400 in some cases necessary. And so the project manager being 417 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,700 both capable in a contract fashion but also technically 418 00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:40,600 capable in terms of his or her. These can often work through 419 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,900 those kind of working Arrangements in a very in a very 420 00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:47,900 sort of agile and practical fashion. 421 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,800 The worry of course is the bit that you've done work that you 422 00:23:51,808 --> 00:23:55,200 don't get paid for and there's no easy way around that 423 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,800 sometimes decisions have to be done. 424 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,600 Sometimes that has to be the priority in the moment and the 425 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,200 other stuff, the commercial side, if you like the financial 426 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,200 side has to be dealt with after the event. 427 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,200 It is a risk. But depending on the the, you 428 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,900 know, the project at stake and what the pivotal decision that 429 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:15,700 needs to be made is that might be the right decision in the 430 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:19,500 moment and of course project managers need to be supported if 431 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:24,500 they've been given you no authority to to move the project 432 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:27,700 along as they see fit. So just to end with that like to 433 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:30,400 ask you to tell us a bit more about the upcoming installments 434 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,000 in the webinar series, you're running for the APM contracts 435 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,900 and procurement Sig. I will, I'm really excited about 436 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:39,000 this because we first ran this on Teen. 437 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,900 I was I've known John broom for many years. 438 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,000 John Bruno has is very well known in the APM and has been 439 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,700 the chair of contracts and procurement Sig fought for many 440 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:53,600 years. And John invited me. 441 00:24:53,608 --> 00:25:00,100 I think back in 2016 or 2017 to be thinking about this, this 442 00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:01,900 contract and project manager space. 443 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:04,600 And it's been, it's an area that I've worked on, for many, many 444 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,000 years. So I was really interested to 445 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,600 help out. We first ran the serial He's in 446 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,900 2018, we had a bit of a break and then Corona has happened and 447 00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:16,900 everybody's been in a bit of a tailspin, of course, but we're 448 00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,900 back for 20 21 and it's new and refreshed. 449 00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:25,000 It's a three parter where we already had part number one in 450 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,500 June. And that can be picked up by APM 451 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:31,400 members. It's stored in the, in the apm's 452 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:37,000 Library, part two is September and part three is in November in 453 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,300 part 2. We're going to Focusing on how 454 00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:43,200 you build a contract and what project managers can use freely, 455 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,600 add to that process. It's going to pick up on things 456 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,200 like those examples of the the time scales for actions that I 457 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,000 talked about earlier and part three is going to be some stuff 458 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,200 on problem solving. And what happens? 459 00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:59,600 How can project managers help out when when things go wrong or 460 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,300 they're threatening to go wrong? So we're talking about nipping 461 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,200 problems in the bud and, and really getting the project 462 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,100 manager to use all the abilities and, and all the contract 463 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:13,000 knowledge that they will have by the end of the series, to put 464 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,700 them in a good position to then, you know, go off them 465 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,600 confidently and capably into the contract. 466 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,000 Sunset. To find out a bit more about 467 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,400 contracts in action. I spoke with Richard Cairns 468 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,900 director of Korean Browns London project and program management. 469 00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:32,200 Team working in the Pharmaceuticals and Life 470 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,800 Sciences sector. Richard is a fellow of a p.m. 471 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,100 and a Committee Member of the program management Sig. 472 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,600 We spoke about contracts including any C4 and how the 473 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,600 pandemic might be influencing best practice around contracts. 474 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,600 Thanks for joining us, Richard. So begin with please. 475 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,200 Could you introduce yourself and give a bit of background to your 476 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,300 current role? Yeah, hello everyone. 477 00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,600 So I'm Richard Cairns I'm a director at Korean Brown and I'm 478 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,800 responsible for the London and Southeast pharmaceutical and 479 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,400 life science project management team. 480 00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:07,300 So I've got nearly 40 members of Staff in my team and we provide 481 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:11,000 projects program design Management Services as well as 482 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,200 projects and planning schedule management a bit of Bim 483 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,400 Management Services as well. And then document management 484 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,400 projects happen and supports it's a various public and 485 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,700 private sector clients The team were working with some quite 486 00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:27,400 large and complex and interesting projects at the 487 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,600 moment and one of them even had a visit from Boris Johnson last 488 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,700 year although we do lots of Not. So Glamorous, work for our 489 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:38,700 clients as well. I've specialized in in 490 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:41,600 pharmaceutical and life science program and project delivery 491 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,700 open last kind of five years. But I haven't always worked in 492 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:47,900 that sector. I've also worked in education, 493 00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:51,800 Healthcare government, and a bit of new build residential and 494 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,800 regeneration as well. The last kind of 20 years and 495 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,600 each of these sectors has their preferred unusual contract 496 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,500 choices and project delivery preferences as well. 497 00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:05,200 You mentioned there are a couple of different sectors you've 498 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,300 worked across. So like to ask you with in 499 00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:11,500 Farmer and Life Sciences, what Contracting disciplines does 500 00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:14,300 that sector use that perhaps distinguishes it from for 501 00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:17,200 example the public sector work that you've done in the past. 502 00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:20,100 Yeah really really good question. 503 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,900 I suppose. Especially the team currently, 504 00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:27,000 you know, they're delivering pharmaceutical and life science, 505 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,200 construction projects, and they vary in size and complexities. 506 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,900 They work on lots of different types of projects, kind of 200 507 00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:38,000 million, plus new, build vaccine, manufacturing, and 508 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000 pandemic response, facilities, right down to konev refurbishing 509 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,700 containment, Laboratories upgrading, or replacing kind of 510 00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:48,600 a Statewide infrastructure Building Services projects as 511 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,500 well. I supposed, you know, most 512 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:55,400 professional bodies Produce their own kind of standard forms 513 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,700 of construction, contracts, and Engineering contracts as well. 514 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,300 The most popular kind of standard forms are going to be 515 00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:07,500 the joint contrast tribunal the J, CT, which publishes Suite of 516 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:11,000 Standard, Building contracts, and related contracts as well, 517 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,100 such as collateral warranties, sub contracts as well. 518 00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:18,700 Another really popular ones new engineering contract any see 519 00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:22,100 which was originally kind of published in the early 90s after 520 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:26,000 the landfill, Of construction Excellence report and the latest 521 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,600 edition of our sin e C4 which was published quite recently 522 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,700 more, you know, 2017. There's others as well. 523 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:37,300 So, it's also the association for consultant Architects, quite 524 00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:41,100 often abbreviated to Aca and that's got the project partner 525 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:45,800 in contract which is PPC 2000, which is kind of first, 526 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,800 published it in the 2000 year, but it's been revised in 2008. 527 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,100 And again in 2013 and the ACA statement was it was the 528 00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:57,900 original one, the first standard partment contract as well. 529 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,800 So the types of contracts used in the team vary from. 530 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,200 Come on. Sighs type scale, procurement 531 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,400 and complexity of each of the projects that they're working 532 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,400 on. And also, if they're in a public 533 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,800 sector, private sector as well. You know, generally, we use cone 534 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,300 of je, CT design, and build or Standard Building contracts 535 00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:20,200 without quantities there. They're more used in the private 536 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,400 sector and then any see any C3 and any C4 and more used in the 537 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,500 in the public sector. But it, you know, isn't a hard 538 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:31,600 and fast Rule and both sectors and we can and do them. 539 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,400 Do you? Both forms of contractors. 540 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,600 Well, we've also got a few projects being delivered under 541 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,800 the institution of chemical engineer so I can be contracts 542 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,000 as well. What are some of these strengths 543 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,300 or unique characteristics of the ik me contracts? 544 00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,000 I can be so that this this type of contrast. 545 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,000 Drafted as a performance-based contract for the design and 546 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,600 construction process plan really the other outputs, you know, and 547 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,800 and output based projects. So it specifically addresses 548 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,000 liabilities and And testing regimes appropriate for 549 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,700 performance of plant. Really good example of that. 550 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:10,200 We're using an ARCA me contract to deliver a new building 551 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,600 simulator project. One of our, one of our clients 552 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,700 are the moment is working wellness. 553 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,700 It's exactly right for that type of project. 554 00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:22,400 Really, you know, I'd probably say, you know, generally most 555 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,000 common use for my Contracting, the team at the moment, it's the 556 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,300 only see for engineering and Construction contract which is 557 00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:32,500 abbreviated to ECC. And that's really The, the 558 00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:35,900 contracted choice for the public sector but that's kind of 559 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:38,400 focused on the type of work that we're doing with a lot of 560 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,800 government bodies of moment as far as specifics go. 561 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,200 So kind of the NEC for PCC contract is got nine core 562 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,800 Clauses. You know, these are split 563 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,300 between like one is General to contractors responsibility three 564 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:58,100 time for Quality Management. Five payment goes down, you 565 00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:01,900 know, six compensation events, 7 title 8. 566 00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:05,000 Listen Insurance streets at 29, termination. 567 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,500 You've also got kind of options with NEC as well. 568 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:10,300 And it goes from option, A down to option. 569 00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:13,400 F. These option A is kind of the 570 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,800 price contract, activity schedule. 571 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:20,700 Option b is price contract with bills of quantities, see Target 572 00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:25,400 contract with activity, schedules, and d-type contract 573 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,900 with bills of quantities, a cost-reimbursable contrast and F 574 00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,300 management contract. You know, you choose the right 575 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:36,600 option based on a client's kind of time, cost quality, and 576 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,100 procure and Route objectives. Their project really. 577 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:42,700 So would you say that customizability and flexibility 578 00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:44,800 are some of the key strengths of any C4? 579 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,100 Yeah, you're definitely. Yeah, I mean, most of the, but I 580 00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:52,000 suppose the most commonly used options that are in the team use 581 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,500 that, hey, which is kind of price contract, activity, 582 00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:58,500 schedule and Andy, which is kind of cost-reimbursable. 583 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,100 So, they're kind of opposite opposite ends of the spectrum, 584 00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:04,400 really, for kind of fully designed or not, and you're 585 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,800 doing a Time reimbursable type Arrangement. 586 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,700 The NEC is split into three different types of Clauses. 587 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:16,800 So, X Clauses, a kind of used for Can be optional clause in 588 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,700 the contract that kind of standard Clauses in the contract 589 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,100 W Clause is the use for dispute resolution. 590 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,800 And I supposed to know your point on flexibility. 591 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,400 You know, any see gives you the option to use said causes for 592 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,400 additional Clauses in the contract and we can talk a bit 593 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,200 later about how they can be used to kind of achieve client 594 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,300 specific objectives in certain areas as well. 595 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,800 You've plugged recently for a p.m. about the construction play 596 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,400 book. Published by the government, 597 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:47,700 tells us a bit about what the Playbook is, and why? 598 00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:49,400 It's valuable for the project profession. 599 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:53,400 Yeah, that's right. Yeah we wrote A Blog for the APM 600 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,700 in June this year. It was the construction Playbook 601 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,600 and how sustainable Contracting is guiding the government's 602 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,200 recovery plans. So I'm a Committee Member for 603 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,500 the APM program management sick and I try to provide kind of 604 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:08,699 thought leadership on appropriate subject, matter 605 00:34:08,699 --> 00:34:10,800 topics. And, you know, encourage 606 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,699 collaboration a bit of knowledge, sharing transfer. 607 00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:17,000 And I really enjoy that part of my role for the a p.m. 608 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,699 So I get involved in a in webinars and writing thought 609 00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:20,900 leadership. Schools. 610 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:25,300 I've got a follow-up block it in August, on the construction 611 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:28,500 Playbook as well and it's going to focus on Modern methods of 612 00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:32,000 construction. So or MMC so I've got a busy few 613 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,199 weeks ahead but specifically answering your question the 614 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,699 construction Playbook as opposed as part of the government's 615 00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:41,300 strategy to build our way to a better economy. 616 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:43,600 You know, they've committed to delivering construction 617 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,600 engineering projects and programs. 618 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,699 You know what you build schools, hospitals prisons and major 619 00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:51,900 instrument. Infrastructure Works to support 620 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:55,100 the economic recovery from the pandemic and delivering 621 00:34:55,100 --> 00:34:57,600 excellent public sets of works. We are crucial part, the 622 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,300 government's recovery plan. I think they've committed 623 00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:04,900 something like 37 billion pounds worth of public sector contracts 624 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:06,700 to go to the market over the next year. 625 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:11,900 So, you know, we're talking big numbers really to help to help 626 00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:14,700 me that aim that the cabinet office is produced the 627 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:18,000 construction Playbook. You know it's abbreviated down 628 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,100 to the Playbook is what is commonly known? 629 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,600 Apps and that provides kind of government guidance on sourcing 630 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,700 and Contracting Public Works projects and programs really The 631 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:32,800 Playbook supports the government's Ambitions and plans 632 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,700 to transform the public sector estate and infrastructure 633 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:38,000 networks. Kind of going through over the 634 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,700 next decade and Beyond really supporting their aims to kind of 635 00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,600 build build back better faster. And Greener, you know, 636 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,400 sustainability is a real key key to it as well. 637 00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:51,800 It focuses on kind of The process of programs and managed 638 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,500 correctly with the optimum, kind of purple best contractual 639 00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:59,500 strategy and solution from the outset of really whether the 640 00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:03,600 scope is delivery of a school, a hospital and major 641 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,900 infrastructure project, the principles of the Playbook of 642 00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:09,500 really the same state detail the approach for assessing kind of 643 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:13,700 procuring and managing Public Public Works, and projects and 644 00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:16,200 programs, really. So it's really about best 645 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,400 practice and how it applies across the board. 646 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:21,500 Yeah, yeah definitely. Yeah. 647 00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:24,600 I mean one of the one of the key principles is creating an 648 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,900 effective kind of Contracting environment. 649 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:31,200 So, you know, that's one of the one of the 14 key policies of 650 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,600 the Playbook and its aim to ensure that contrast is 651 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,400 structured to support an exchange of data. 652 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,900 No Drive collaboration is a really big theme. 653 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,000 Improved value manage risk with a drive for kind of continuous 654 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,700 Improvement as well. But as if there's another real 655 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:51,900 Theme coming from the Playbook which the government wants to 656 00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:56,400 still focus on outcomes to create long-term value kind of 657 00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,400 all through successful project delivery. 658 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,700 So they want this to create a contrasting landscape that 659 00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:04,300 delivers Converse a sustainable resilient and effective 660 00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:07,800 relationship between Contracting parties and a supply chain. 661 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,500 They just they don't want one off contrasted with long-term. 662 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,700 Collaborative, relationships, being Bill going forward, which 663 00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:15,200 is great. I think for the industry 664 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,600 thinking a bit more about collaboration. 665 00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:20,000 How can contracts be? Used to foster a more 666 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,800 collaborative way of doing projects. 667 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:26,400 Yeah, cut contracts. And there are spoke wording 668 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,700 causes and requirements can be used to implement kind of many 669 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:34,200 specific clients or project requirements including kind of 670 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,700 promoting and encouraging collaborative working and 671 00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:42,200 practices kept going back. You know the 1994 constructing 672 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,700 the team commonly known as the lamp from reports. 673 00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:48,500 That the starting point for most, you know, most recent 674 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:52,400 change changing agenda in the UK construction industry. 675 00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:55,200 The why? Fred growth of partnering and 676 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,700 subsequent kind of collaborative working, can all be kind of 677 00:37:57,700 --> 00:38:00,100 traced back, right? You know, right away back to 678 00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:04,100 that 1994. All Anthem report, really the 679 00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:07,500 NEC particularly, you know, approaches and the way 680 00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:10,000 approaches the management managing of contracts. 681 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,300 It was really endorsed him in the lamp and Report, you know? 682 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,000 And which was kind of the government's review of 683 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,600 procurement and contractual arrangements and UK construction 684 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,800 industry at that time. So going back nearly kind of 685 00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:28,200 What 20 years, but the use of any she contrast with Play-Doh a 686 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,400 key key in helping part in the industry to kind of do things 687 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,300 differently and better with collaboration kind of right at 688 00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,600 the heart of this, you know, in my view as well. 689 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,800 The four pillars of success are all kind of embodied in the NEC 690 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,600 contract and those are kind of you know, one working together 691 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,200 to stack together, you know, 3 adding value. 692 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,400 And then for Innovation they're all the key principles of I'm 693 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,500 fully embodied into the NEC country. 694 00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:59,800 I really and they should all be embodied into kind of most 695 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,400 contracts in contracted approaches and processes really 696 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,900 in my view. How do you think the change in 697 00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:07,700 working conditions brought about because of the pandemic has 698 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:10,000 impacted the way we need to think about Contracting 699 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,800 practices? Yeah, another another really 700 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,300 good question, really, so I'm very currents as well. 701 00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:18,900 So one of the one of the changes in working condition of 702 00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:21,300 practices that I've personally experienced in a pandemic is 703 00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:23,300 obviously remote working and remote. 704 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,600 Idiot delivery. You know, we're all kind of 705 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,900 working from home, a lot of use of kind of virtual kind of 706 00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:33,300 meeting software, you know, Ms. Teams is a great example, 707 00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:36,100 really? I don't think I'm unique here 708 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:38,600 and probably the whole country of you saying something similar, 709 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,000 but I suppose there's a working example. 710 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,400 Last year I was working on a, on a project, using a development 711 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,300 management agreements, which stated a requirement for 712 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,000 contractual notice under under that kind of contract or 713 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,400 agreement. It's be shoed in hard copy 714 00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:59,200 recorded correspondence, delivery with wet signatures and 715 00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:02,900 you know obviously working remotely in a pandemic and kind 716 00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:07,000 of mitigating spread and kind of this. 717 00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:09,700 The spread of the virus that just wasn't practical or 718 00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:12,500 appropriate for those type of working conditions in the 719 00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:16,500 pandemic, really? I suppose it's worth noting as 720 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:19,300 well. That NEC for the new the new 721 00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:22,600 contract or newish contract. That came out in 2017. 722 00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:23,900 Mmm. Braces. 723 00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:26,400 All these kind of digital changes that are happening in 724 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,200 the construction industry especially around communication 725 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,200 and, and been really, which are essential in this ever-changing 726 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:35,700 world. Particularly the moment, you 727 00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:38,800 know, in the pandemic or, or coming out of the pandemic, I 728 00:40:38,808 --> 00:40:42,600 think we've changed over the last 18 months and and 729 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,900 certainly, for the better really another highly current topic. 730 00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:49,400 Of course, is sustainability. What are some of the ways in 731 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,100 your experience of addressing sustainability concerns through 732 00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:56,800 contracts? Yeah, especially if a client has 733 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,700 a particular sustainability ambition or Target that they 734 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:04,500 want to achieve through a project on way to do this. 735 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,400 It could be through the use of, I'll use any see again as a 736 00:41:08,408 --> 00:41:12,300 specific example, but you know, could use a specific Z Clause, 737 00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:14,300 we talked a bit about that earlier, didn't we? 738 00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:17,800 You know, as an additional Clause to the contract under the 739 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,200 NEC engineering and Construction contract? 740 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,500 You know, it could be worded to include A specific 741 00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:27,900 sustainability or carbon reduction Target as a key 742 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:32,600 performance indicator or or kpi as a contract requirement. 743 00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:36,300 And, you know, there's a number of reasons that could drive 744 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:37,700 this. You know, a local Authority 745 00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:41,500 planning condition of building regulation part L requirements 746 00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:44,800 or a Brie am Target or aspiration. 747 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,500 There's also carbon reduction kind of aspirations aimed a 748 00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:51,500 supposed minimizing environmental environmental 749 00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:56,200 impact of your business cutting Waist and acts extravagance as 750 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,300 well and kind of generate just minimizing your carbon 751 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:02,000 footprint, really? It's very, very current and 752 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,600 topical at the moment. The UK government recently 753 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,300 stated it is NetZero strategy targets set by the climate 754 00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:15,000 change Act of 2008 and at least expose 100 percent reduction in 755 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,400 UK greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 compared to those two kind 756 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,000 of 1990 levels. So contracts, then requirements 757 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:27,200 play Key Parts in Meeting those requirements really, you know, 758 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,300 as well as sustainability they could be used in other areas as 759 00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:34,100 well and, you know, we're seeing this a lot, you know, myself and 760 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:35,400 the team. You know, this is coming through 761 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,500 a lot in after areas, where kind of public static clients using 762 00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:43,300 said Clause is to implement social value or corporate and 763 00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:46,300 social responsibility aspirations through the 764 00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:48,200 procurement effect construction projects. 765 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,800 And this this is all filtering down into the supply chain. 766 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,200 Are there any specific or unique? 767 00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:55,700 Meek considerations around sustainability for building 768 00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:57,800 projects within farmer and life sciences. 769 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,500 Yeah, I think I think I wouldn't say there's anything 770 00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:05,000 particularly unique about farmer and Life Sciences very much like 771 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,100 for like a cross construction industry. 772 00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:09,900 But farmer and life science unit, depending on what the 773 00:43:09,908 --> 00:43:13,300 project is, it could be Rd, you know, research and development 774 00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:18,400 facility or kind of a cgmp Time. Manufacturing facility. 775 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,900 Everybody controlled environments and complex kind of 776 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,900 complex buildings and places really and sometimes achieving 777 00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:32,300 those those The sustainability targets can be more complicated 778 00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:36,100 than a than a say a new-build block of flats which is 779 00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:37,900 obviously less complex, you know. 780 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,200 But but I wouldn't say there's anything particularly specific 781 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,100 about the farmer and laughs insectary only that it's a much 782 00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:50,000 more complicated environment, so Implement highly serviced as 783 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,000 well. So you know, it's a bit more 784 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,100 complicated I suppose in summary in your view how can contracts 785 00:43:57,100 --> 00:44:01,000 help drive a culture on a Act, for example, and agile culture. 786 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:02,800 Yeah. Yeah. 787 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,700 I mean contrast can certainly help Drive project culture and I 788 00:44:06,707 --> 00:44:10,300 suppose it all comes back to to ensuring that you select the 789 00:44:10,300 --> 00:44:13,100 right procurement and contrast strategy that meets your own 790 00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:16,000 specific requirements. Really, you know what meeting 791 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,200 the clients objectives and business case and user 792 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,100 requirements brief are essential really. 793 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,300 We've talked a lot about any see in this podcast and I think it's 794 00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:31,400 a fantastic sweetie of contracts, but it does have its 795 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,400 crew. Systems which are mainly focused 796 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,600 around those being heavily administrative, you know, with 797 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,400 with inflexible kind of process-driven contractual 798 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,500 requirements, I don't think there's any one size fits all 799 00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:47,000 type of protein in the construction playbook. 800 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,000 For example, states, that the standard contract should be 801 00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:53,300 should be chosen and the following sweets and it 802 00:44:53,300 --> 00:45:00,300 specifically mentions any c 3 or 4 JC 2016 in and PPC 2000. 803 00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:04,800 So it gives you a range of Stood options contractual Arrangements 804 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,600 can be can be usually added to in some kind of model contracts 805 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,600 to help deal with projects and clients specific requirements or 806 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,300 risk so which are not covered in the main contract term. 807 00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:17,800 So, if you've got a kind of actual working requirement, 808 00:45:17,900 --> 00:45:20,400 these can be easily inserted and dealt with through a contract 809 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,500 Amendment wording. Or a said clause, for example, 810 00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,700 under any c, so you can easily Implement those if needed 811 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,500 finally reflecting on the headline-grabbing vaccine 812 00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:34,000 rollout program from the Okay, government, which is broadly 813 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,700 been deemed a huge success. Are there any lessons on the 814 00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:39,800 contracts and procurement side that we can take from that 815 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,100 program and use going forwards? Yeah, I mean first of all kind 816 00:45:44,100 --> 00:45:47,700 of in answer to that I think you know I think I think the 817 00:45:47,707 --> 00:45:50,400 government has done a fantastic job in the vaccine rollout 818 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,300 program, it's something that country can really be proud of 819 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,900 over the last Connor, 12 months. I think, you know, when compared 820 00:45:56,900 --> 00:46:00,800 to other nations we've really excelled in what we've done on 821 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,400 that program. So, you know how soft to 822 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,600 everyone that was involved in it. 823 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,000 Really, I personally wasn't involved in the government's 824 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,300 vaccine rollout program, but I did did have some pre-contract 825 00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:16,000 involvement in the design and construction of the new build 826 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,000 vaccine manufacturing and pandemic response facility. 827 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,200 It was a really great project to work on but I think looking back 828 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,600 you did need to be very thick-skinned the times whilst 829 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,200 working on it, but I'm really proud of the role that I played 830 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,600 or small part that I played in it. 831 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,400 The frames, you know, it's an absolutely great project to be 832 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,800 involved in one of the lessons that I've learned and took for 833 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,800 my involvement in the project is ironically for this podcast is 834 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,400 that there's definitely a time and a place not to be overly 835 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,100 contractual and there's definitely a need to be a bit 836 00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:51,000 pragmatic, you know, particularly, you know, when 837 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,900 working with such an important projects, you definitely need to 838 00:46:54,908 --> 00:46:57,700 make sure that you take the time to select the right procurement 839 00:46:57,700 --> 00:47:00,800 and contract strategy as part of a project initiation, you know, 840 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,000 right at the beginning. Of a project if you don't get 841 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,300 that right. You know, it could really the 842 00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:09,900 wheels could really come off on a project really special. 843 00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:13,900 What other Lessons Learned can we take from the last 18 months? 844 00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:16,200 Really? I think flexibility and 845 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,300 innovation in Project delivery. And contrast strategy has proved 846 00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:23,700 to be really crucial, you know, in the response to kind of these 847 00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:27,700 exceptional kind of nature of the pandemic and the challenges 848 00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:31,900 that we faced over the last kind of year or 18 months for A 849 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,100 rapidly evolving kind of projects and contract 850 00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:41,500 requirements, iets complex changing stakeholder groups, you 851 00:47:41,508 --> 00:47:45,100 know, fluid Financial control, will you know, maybe there isn't 852 00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:49,100 so much driver to on cost, you know, you just need to get it 853 00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:51,200 done. Just to kind of save lives, 854 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,400 really high levels of kind of external public scrutiny, as 855 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,800 well, with kind of made it necessary to kind of innovate 856 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,900 and adapt through every aspect of the kind of contract strategy 857 00:48:02,900 --> 00:48:07,400 process, really? It's been achieved in a number 858 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,000 of ways, doesn't it throughout kind of the project and program 859 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,800 life cycle over the kind of lost 80 mums? 860 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,700 You know, flexible procurements key design and construction 861 00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:22,700 Solutions need to be highly kind of strategic in your sourcing as 862 00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:24,900 well. You know, aimed at maximizing 863 00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:28,300 buying advantage in responding quickly to risks in supply 864 00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:31,800 chain, disruption, brexit certainly hasn't helped That 865 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,200 regard, but, you know, we've got through it. 866 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,900 I think moving forward, you know, stakeholders should 867 00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:39,900 continue to kind of employee flexible kind of innovative 868 00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:42,400 procurement solution approach really. 869 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,400 And that will allow us to adjust. 870 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,200 And, and flex to me, you know, growing needs going forward as 871 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,500 part of the pandemic response or kind of, if needed in a 872 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,000 telephone, a second or third wave now, but, you know, if we 873 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,800 need to upscale vaccine manufacturer, we will need to be 874 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,800 flexible. Really What my personal 875 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,600 reflection of working through the pandemic really is, you 876 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,200 know, I think we've learned a lot and enormous amount over the 877 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,300 last 18 months. No against enormous odds. 878 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,200 You know we could we can still deliver from a contractual 879 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,000 perspective and you know what we have seen this really you know, 880 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,900 impossible or unattainable in 2019, we've shown throughout 881 00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:26,600 kind of 2020 and through into 2021, you know, it's now 882 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,100 possible. So, you know, just keep 883 00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:31,500 collaborating be flexible and apply. 884 00:49:31,700 --> 00:49:35,300 And if it's you've approached I think we can step up and meet 885 00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,700 any new challenge that 2021 and Beyond throws. 886 00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:44,200 It's just really. Thanks to Sarah and Richard for 887 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:45,900 their contributions to this episode. 888 00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:48,200 I'd like to wrap up by summarizing some of the things 889 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,300 that we've learned firstly contracts. 890 00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:53,000 A hugely important in a project context because they regulate 891 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,800 the relationship between the parties and enable them to 892 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,600 understand what work is being done to live it up cured. 893 00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:02,500 They set out in clear terms the scope timescales and processes 894 00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:05,900 for disputes and risk mitigation as Sara explained. 895 00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:08,400 And awareness of contract is important for project managers 896 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,100 because if they don't deliver Services properly, it could be 897 00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:13,800 in breach of contract. And relationships and governance 898 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,000 could begin to unravel. Richard meanwhile explained how 899 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,300 contracts can help Drive project culture during you select the 900 00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:22,700 right procurement and strategy to meet your own specific 901 00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:25,300 requirements, along with the clients objectives and business 902 00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:27,700 case, it's also worth remembering. 903 00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:30,200 The contracts aren't just there to be dusted off when things go 904 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,200 wrong because of the huge Investments of time and money 905 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,700 that go into contracts. They should instead be viewed in 906 00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:38,800 a positive way, there is an opportunity for project 907 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,200 professionals to stand up and make their voices heard. 908 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,300 They need to see the contract, have a part in its negotiation 909 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:47,100 or at least be consulted. They are the ones who have to 910 00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:49,800 deliver and take ultimate responsibility for the outcomes. 911 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,500 We also heard about the role of contracts in sustainability. 912 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,000 Now inserting specific Clauses, can Implement social value or 913 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,900 corporate social responsibility aspirations through, for 914 00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:02,600 example, procurement of a construction project. 915 00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:06,600 And finally have the pandemic has taught us collaboration, 916 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400 flexibility and Innovation and project. 917 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,100 Delivery and contract strategy are crucial and faced with 918 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:14,100 rapidly evolving situations. With complex changing, 919 00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:17,700 stakeholder groups, check the episode description for links to 920 00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:20,600 Sarah's webinar series and Richards latest blogs for a p.m. 921 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,800 Em. Get in touch with your feedback 922 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,700 and suggestions at a p.m. podcast at think publishing 923 00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:28,800 .co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 924 00:51:28,808 --> 00:51:32,000 you by APM the charts body for the project profession. 925 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,100 For more information on a p.m. visit, a p.m. 926 00:51:35,100 --> 00:51:21,000 Dot org.uk. Em. 927 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,300 Get in touch with your feedback and suggestions at a p.m. 928 00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:26,700 podcast at think publishing .co.uk. 929 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,900 This podcast has been brought to you by APM the charts body for 930 00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:34,100 the project profession. For more information on a p.m. 931 00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:36,400 visit, a p.m. Dot org.uk.