Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
the project profession. My name is Emma divita and I'm
the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host.
I've invited three project professionals who are here to
talk about what it's like to be an introvert in a profession
that on the surface, at least appears to favor the extrovert,
this situation, leaves many Introverts having to fake it and
to suffer the consequences. So isn't it time things change
here to share their experiences and offer their advice.
Our Alex Constantine consultant at P cubed, Claire, Hornsby a
project manager in strategic partnering programs at BAE
Systems and Natalie Tolbert. Our manager for Alchemy where
she consults and digital transformation projects for
public sector clients. Welcome everyone.
First by way of introduction, I think.
Would each of you mind saying a little bit about your role and
the kinds of projects you work on.
So Alex, do you want to go first?
So, I am a senior principal consultant for Mig sop cubed, we
are Specialists project management consultancy.
So we work with clients on, portofolio programs, and changed
and pmo gigs. My background is, I'm not
industry-specific. So, I've worked across most
Industries. So, for example, I'm currently
working with a client, client in the real estate area previously,
I was working with a telecommunications client so
very varied client based Thank you, Claire.
Would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about
your role? Yeah, so I'm clear Hornsby, I am
a project manager within the head office within BAE Systems
of which for Bae for 26 years and have been in project
management. Probably about sort of 23 24 of
those. The the role that I mean
currently is looking at improving project.
The processes and how we deliver I guess better outcomes
specifically to our mod customer.
But the intention is that the benefits are then felt across
all projects to all customers. Thank you.
Natalie welcome. Do you want to tell us a bit
about your role and projects you're working on?
Yeah, no problem. I'm see how I'm Natalie.
I work with an SME. Consultancy firm called Alchemy
at the moment. I am in manager, I've got a
split roll so I work deployed on client contracts, doing project
management and controls in digital transformation projects
mostly across the public sector at the moment and I also work in
our bid Factory. So I also manage and write
proposals to windy work for the business.
So I've been in project management sort of officially
for three and a half years. Now prior to that I was
accidentally project managing when I was so used to be a
research scientist before, switching things up and entering
the P3 I'm space. So, it turns out, I was
accidentally project managing my research, throughout those four
years. So, unofficially, seven years in
project management, officially three-and-a-half.
We're all gathered here today to talk.
About being an introvert in the project profession, you all
think of yourselves as introverts.
But what does that actually mean in everyday working life and and
what's it feel like to be an introvert in the project
profession? So Alex I'll ask you to be brave
and go first. It's interesting because you
come across people quite frequently with who perceive
project managers to be the people that lead from the front
go out, you know, tell everyone what to do, and get things going
and get things moving. And, and I'm glad to say that
there are not as many people like that around that anymore.
Because if that's the expectation, then that can be
quite intimidating because it doesn't come natural.
So do you mean that you're expected to be this kind of
gung-ho extroverted leader? That's what it means.
That's what people think it means.
It does to. Yeah, because you are effect a
project manager is effectively a project leader there.
The person who are expected to take something and create an
outcome and it comes Responsibility, you know, and
accountability very often to to deliver whatever the project is
set out to deliver. And I think if you have people
who are naturally extroverts than they kind of often expect
that that leadership Position will be done by an extrovert
person or in an extrovert way, which doesn't come naturally.
It doesn't mean that it does that I think.
Yeah, I think every extrovert every introvert.
Can be extrovert or have an extrovert features, right?
It doesn't mean that we are always quiet or always in the
background or whatever it may mean to people.
You know, it's not a fixed State.
It's just the preffer natural preference.
We are what's your natural preference in the way you work?
Well, my natural preference is I like working As much as
possible, you know, in smaller groups are one to one.
So, take an individual approach with people build consensus, in
that way, and work with stakeholders in that way, and
then bring larger groups together.
After that, in order to you know align people into a specific
Direction. Let's put it that way.
Whereas others may feel more comfortable just, you know, get
everyone in the room and you know, let's hash it out and find
a way, right? That, you know, I find more
difficult and personally, I would probably, you know, making
decisions off the cuff. It's not something that I
naturally like doing, I prefer to step back have a think about
it. Probably informed myself and
then and then do it that way. Okay, that's an interesting
Insight. Well, how about you, Claire?
What's it? What's it mean?
To be an introvert in your sort of everyday, working life and
how do you prefer to work? I guess, my initial thoughts are
that. I'm not sure that it feels any
different to anybody else in that, you know, an extrovert can
sometimes feel anxious or unsure.
And I guess as well because I'm an introvert, I don't know how
an extrovert necessarily feels, and I guess personally, I like
to plan my weeks, but I like to mix a mix up those engagements
days with the thinking days. So I make sure that I've got
that balance through the week because effectively, you know,
it's how I get my energy so I don't get my energy through
presenting to a load of people. I get my energy through sitting
reflecting and then sort of coming up with a considered
thought. And you know I guess that's
similar to what what Alex was saying if I've got a
particularly We busy week with lots of truffle, lots of
engagements. I need to make sure that I've
then got the downtime to, to be able to recharge.
I can't do, you know, sort of weeks and weeks away, and then,
you know, sort of getting home and then having to do stuff at
home as well, it doesn't stop me.
You know, being able to present or have big meetings or get a
load of people in a room. It just means means that I need
to prepare for it and I need to make sure that I've got enough
in reserve to be able to do it and then enough dying down time
afterwards. How do you prefer to interact
with a team? Then it depends on on the team.
So if it's I mean, I'm fortunate, the team are working
at the moment, we're all introverts.
So we all know to be able to give each other space, but
equally when we get together, it's a really safe environment
and, you know, we can, we can have those discussions, we can
bounce off each other and it's You know, it's really good being
sort of face-to-face, sending a team together and if it's, it's
then sort of wider wider team and, you know, sort of other
stakeholders, I do prefer the sort of 121, you know, similar
to what Alex was saying that individual engagement and then
getting everybody together. But as I said earlier, I mean,
I'm sort of all so happy. If we just, if the only
opportunity only option is to get everybody in a room, then
let's get everybody in a room. Because it's the outcome.
That's not it's the outcome. That is important.
Not necessarily the way it's done and unless they have about
you has it? Well, was it mean for you to be
in interpreting them in your everyday?
Working life? Yes.
I'm just thinking about this question before.
It's sort of encouraged me to reflect a lot.
And actually, I'm at a point now, where I feel I feel in
control and I feel comfortable with the fact that I'm an
introvert, but I had this realization actually Early
stages of my career. Particularly when I was starting
out as a grad, actually I really I didn't like that.
I was introverted. So especially when you can see
that those around you are energized by doing a
presentation or they're looking forward to hosting this Beast of
a workshop that they're doing in that afternoon.
And actually, I'm sat there thinking, oh my god, what have I
done? And I can't think of anything
worse. How am I gonna am?
I going to survive this P3 and world?
If our if You know, I can't do a workshop and every five seconds,
I'm finding myself in a workshop at the moment.
I think, as Times Gone on, I've got more comfortable with the
fact that she had. Don't enjoy that so much and
that's fine. We'll different and I leaned
into what while it was two things, really it's
understanding. What can I do to make that
easier on myself? And what B?
Do I enjoy the again? I can lean into and as I've
progressed I can sort of steer things more towards what I
prefer. So forcing those sort of more
one-to-one relationships and being Being a bit more proactive
and going and engaging. Somebody want to 1 instead of
waiting until you're in a room full of people being deliberate
and how I use my energy and how I plan my time and how I
maintain my social battery sometimes.
How does it, what does this look like in everyday life, for me?
It's drawing down on that reflective nature of being an
introvert, but being a bit selfish with it and reflecting
on how I'm doing. And how my social battery is how
my energy has and Trying to understand what's in my control
to tweak called a new throughout the week, to get me through it
and to get all the important stuff done for my clients
because ultimately client comes first.
I can't just been off of Workshop because my client needs
that I'm there to provide, you know, Top Class service and
that's what I always Endeavor to do.
So what are the things that I can control and can tweak to
enable me to perform at my best? You start to talk a little bit
about the problems that being an introvert could raise in work.
Alex, if I could go back to you what problems has been an
introvert raised for you, kind of personally and perhaps with
with other members of your team or other stakeholders.
The biggest issue I had which is act which, which annoys me, and
I always feel really guilty about it is.
If my workday depleted me to the amount where I don't kind of,
don't really want to spend time with family, and I just want to
like have a bit of time to myself and that makes me feel
really guilty. So the moment, you know, I come
to a point where you know, I come home and I kind of go I
can't face This, that that's a real big problem for me because,
you know, the hours that I have with my kids and with my wife
are absolutely precious. So, one of the big things that I
try to do is I try to not let it get to that point.
For me, it's, you know, simple things like taking 5 to 10
minutes during the day a few times, just to go out, get a bit
of fresh air, have a bit of A walk.
If it's particular stressful, breathing exercises, or a bit of
mindfulness, something like that, so it doesn't need to be
major things. So it's really about creating
that space to be on your own and to reflect and just relax.
Yeah. Reflect and recharge, I think
it's the right word because I think, you know, we used the
word depleted a few times, you know, already in in this session
and I think that that really kind of really resonates with me
as well. Is that becomes The point during
the day where you are just depleted and you need to
recharge, do you mean depleted by social interaction?
Yes. If I'm in meetings all day and
you know, having to, you know talk and engage with groups of
people and probably fight my corner on more than one occasion
facilitate. And and and there comes a point
where, you know, the battery is just You know, depleted and the
worst thing that can happen for me is leaving it to the very end
of the day, so that there's no opportunity to recharge until I
get home. And have you found working with
other project? Managers of the team members who
are not introverted, or expect you to behave in an extroverted
way, what's your experience of that?
So, I'm lucky in the fact that within, you know, The company
now work this. They are extremely inclusive so
I have never had a problem in that respect here being a
consultant or project management.
Consultants you know, I do Faceoff to clients quite
frequently and some of them and some people do come with that
preconception of a project manager needs to be a certain
way and that does pose a challenge, I am happy to report
the that most people are mostly interested in.
Outcomes and it just takes a little while to get them focused
on yes with achieving the outcome.
We are progressing. We are getting two to deliver
40. We're delivering what you expect
and they stop thinking about how they wanted to livered one of
the things that another part of our business introduced is, I
started creating a slide, which is kind of The Alexander
nutshell slide which is effectively, you know, it
effectively, just has kind of three columns about, you know,
this is how I'm at my best. This is how I like to
communicate and engage engage with people.
And, you know, these are a few important things about that.
You should know about me. Well, because the things have
you got on there. It's effectively, kind of a
summary. Like, for example, you know, I
let people know that, you know, if I had a difficult meeting,
you might find that. I'm just going to step out for
10 minutes and then come back and check to you after.
So, for example, and just just just to set that expectation
off. This is how I this is how I am
at my best and that then opens the conversation about with
with, with clients and other people about, okay?
This is how I held out their best, and then we can find and
work together on on, you know, helping each other to be at our
best. Pretty good idea.
Really good tip. Thank you.
Claire. What challenges are issues has
been an introvert raised for you in your work.
The key one that that came to mind is, is around meetings and,
and, and particularly, if you're in a forum where you've got
particularly dominant people and, and, and it goes back to
the earlier point, that people automatically assume that
project managers are these. These dominant leading from the
front kind of people that the people who sit back Wait and
consider and are sometimes not heard or, you know, the, the
sort of wallflower in the room. And, and I've very much been
that person who's been sat in the room with something.
Well, something I've considered really important or you know,
really value add to say but I've been too scared to say it and,
you know, it sort of probably goes back to a Classroom
environment, you know where, right?
Who knows the answer to this question and you scared to put
your hands up in case you're wrong.
And so, you know, I was very much sit in the back of a
meeting and not say anything, just in case I was wrong.
And, and, and the other bit is again in a meeting.
When you've got those dominant voice is being able to get a
word in edgeways because I'm not a natural shouty person, so I'm
not Not you know a table Banger. I'm not going to stand up and
make my point heard you know get my point across but equally I'm
not going to sit in a meeting and put my hand up and say oh
excuse me do you mind if I talk now?
And so it's it's sort of getting that balance and and also
getting that trust of the people in the room.
That now, I'm here for a reason you've invited me to this
meeting for a reason. Because I've got something to
contribute and it's having that self-confidence too.
Well, they wouldn't have invited me if they didn't think.
I had something to contribute. Have you found a way to make
yourself heard in meetings? I have two ways of dealing with
it. One is its of waiting for the
Gap in conversation and sometimes that Gap just doesn't
appear in which case you, you know, it's a case of Physically
leaning forward in the meeting. So, you know, if you sit, sit
back in your chair and you've got your sort of arms folded in
front of you, then you're automatically not as present and
at the table as you could be. So it's very much a right
leaning forward. I'm going to get the attention
of the person, in fact, I'm doing it now.
You know, I'm going to get the attention of the the person who
I want to interrupt or who's speaking.
And the other the other approach I've taken is finding a friendly
person, within the meeting, or, you know, knowing who's coming
along to the meeting and who's a sort of a collaborator.
So, and having that conversation with them.
So, right. Okay.
You know, what's, what's the structure of the meeting?
What's the topic or? Well, I think I can contribute
here here and here. So if I haven't said anything,
Then, you know, can you sort of try and get me a sort of
opening? Do you prefer to kind of have
virtual meetings or to do work on know what's your preferred
way of communicating? Yes, I'm at my ideal is is
probably sort of 80% virtual 20% face-to-face.
I always surprised myself when I have the face to face meetings,
how much I enjoy them and how much I get out of them, you
know, the virtual environment. It's really good for, you know,
that sort of get your head down and start getting things done.
But the face-to-face I always find is quicker to get a
consensus and to get an outcome, then in a virtual world just
because people feel more accountable when they're in the
room, You know, it's easier, it's easier in a virtual
environments, they are yet. It's all right, I'll do that
after the call and then accidentally on purpose, forget
about it. Defined it easier to contribute
to virtual meeting and to think about Zoom calls.
Yes, it is. I guess I use a couple of
techniques and depending on what platform you use in, there's
obviously you know, the chat function, but that relies on
somebody actually reading it. You can put virtual hands up.
I use that quite a lot, but again, it relies on somebody
going. Okay, class got her hand up
otherwise, As rude as it sounds, I do find it easier to
interrupt. And in, you know, in a virtual
environment and I'm not really sure why, probably, because
there's nobody physically turning in the meeting room to
stare at you. You know, you can sort of chip
in, you know, over a microphone or even if it's on video and
it's not quite as daunting. That's really what what kind of
issues has it has been an intra race for you and have you tried
to overcome them. So I think the biggest one for
me is sort of that social battery life that Alex spoke
about, and it's actually it's been weirdly nice and reassuring
to hear somebody else speak about the exact same issue that
I have quite regularly. And sometimes I think you can
feel a bit, the almost mugged off in the sense that you use
all your social battery at work. And then the day finishes and
your mates textures are, should we go to the pub to do this
that? And you're like actually no.
I can't think of anything worse right now.
I just need to sit and recharge and get myself sort of back to
back to absorb good state of energy right now because I'm
exhausted and it's a really strange flavor of exhaustion and
tiredness that comes when your social battery runs out of
juice. It's This mental sort of
frazzled nurse in your brain and a bit physical to.
So that one's huge for me. Have you ever faked?
Look being more? Extrovert, have you ever tried
to tried to hide your kind of natural preference?
Not to be the kind of center of attention, or not to be the loud
one in the room. I think I saw my knee-jerk
response to that is basically yeah, every day.
And I don't, I don't view it as sort of hiding it necessarily,
but sometimes you have to put a mask on to get the job done.
Alec thing and Claire. Have you ever tried to fake
being an extrovert? Is that something you feel that
you've needed to do? I would kind of, you know, maybe
step away from the word faked, right?
Because the reason why I say, I say that is being extrovert, is
not a fixed state, right? So extroverts, like or introvert
is not being is not a fixed date.
Introverts And be assertive, instrument, introverts can be
the life of a party or whatever other, you know, label, you
would like, to put, we can do it, it just maybe requires fast
to, you know, get there in a different way than extroverts
word. So for me, it's not for me, it's
not about faking it for me, it's just mindfully putting myself
into position of amplifying. Those skills that are more
natural to extroverts at times when it's required to do so.
Thank you, Claire. How about you did you push
yourself to kind of copy? How others are in a meeting or
to try and live up to the expectations, that others might
have of how you need to be in. A project team.
I guess the short answer is is yes because some sometimes you
just you know, you have to and I think you know, sort of very
much echoing Alex is point. I can be extroverted if I want
to be And, but it takes an awful lot of energy.
So, you know, my natural state is to, you know, it's a party to
sort of find somebody. I know when just stand and chat
to them quietly in the corner, and that doesn't mean that I
can't get up and stage and present to, you know, 300
people, because I can, but I just, I need to Steel myself to
to get there almost. You know, sort of power poses in
the bathroom beforehand. And then I just need to go and
sit in a dark and dream for a little bit afterwards, just to,
to do that recharged. Yeah, it's just, it's not my
natural state. What needs to change about the
project profession? And the way project teams worked
in order to allow introverts to thrive because Our preference is
to engage people in smaller groups or 121.
That creates a really strong foundations for building.
Trust with stakeholders. Because trust is built between
individuals. I think we are very good at that
naturally of kind of creating that that relationship, that
more intimate relationship with stakeholders with clients
customers and so on. But I also think that if you're
always that person who leads from the front, you might not
always be aware of what happens behind you.
And you know, if you're the kind of the person that you know,
doesn't need to leave from the foot and you, you maybe have to
be kind of observation skills to pick up certain things.
That others may not. So, you know, I think, you know,
we observe and see things understand and kind of digest
Dynamics, understand the Dynamics, and then can kind of
adapt ourselves teams and others too.
You know, to take advantage of those Dynamics.
What needs to change to allow you to capitalize on your
strengths at work? What advice or thoughts, would
you give to other project? Leaders of project managers
about having introverts on their teams and giving them what they
need to do? The best job they can.
Two things may be number one, you know, even though you know,
extrovert versus introvert is not part necessarily of the
being inclusive organizations in discussion, right, being
inclusive organization, you know, doesn't does not
necessarily limit you to being inclusive, two different genders
or neurodiverse people, or whatever else it is.
Simply means that you're creating environments where no
matter What kind of person you are?
You can be at your best. So, you know, continuing to
invest into that and I'm defying that, you know, will definitely
help everyone including and introverts.
The other thing, I'll probably say is that for me, you know,
courage, which I think, you know, has been a theme, a few
people, you know, all of us brought that out that it
requires courage to do certain things.
And I think courage often is mistaken as something that comes
from within someone. For me personally, there are
very few people, many many less than we actually think they're
that are naturally courageous and can just bring the whole,
their whole selves, you know, into the workplace, no matter
what the environment. I think, for the majority of us,
me included, actually. Courage comes from having a
community and a safe space. And the support of others.
So others give us permission to be our whole selves and
therefore, we are able to be ourselves and I think that's
that's true for the majority of people whether that's that
support comes from. We don't see it because it comes
from family, or from friends, or whether we see it because it
comes from the work place. Either set.
Either way, we create this safe spaces for people to, you know,
make mistakes, learn experiment. So they learn about have the
opportunity to learn about how they can be at their best and
that's incredibly important I think Claire.
What, what, what strengths do you feel introvert spring to
team and how can there be better supported?
I guess it's that that that diversity.
So in in terms of, you know, if you've got extroverts on the
team or you've got no male females, it it's having that,
that balance, and that diversity of thought, diversity of view.
I guess the problem is sometimes get is that the introverts don't
manage to get their points across and therefore, you don't
end up with that diversity of thought because the, the
introvert isn't isn't putting that point across.
Should it be that the person who's running that meeting be,
you know, knowing of that and should therefore invite people,
they know, to be kind of quieter than others to contribute?
Would that help? I think, I think it's
everybody's responsibility. Leti, actually, I think I think
you know, we should all be I guess be able to read the room
and to understand what other people are doing, what their
preferences are. You know what?
They've got to contribute and and, you know, if you've got
people in a meeting or in a workshop, they're there for a
reason. And if they're not there for a
reason, then they shouldn't They're at all because we've all
got better things to be doing and but it's I think it's a pain
everybody to make sure that everybody else is contributing.
And you know, it's it's upon me as an introvert to know when I'm
being introverted and But equally, I don't necessarily
want somebody to go. So Claire, what do you have to
say on the matter? Because then it's you know, it's
everybody had turning to stare at me which I will just go home.
Nothing thanks. So it's allowing allowing the
introvert that the time to think any advice you would give to
sort of project managers of project leaders about how to
make introverts feel, I guess we'll comfortable.
I like preparing, I like to know in advance, you know what's
going to happen, what the topics are.
And, you know, the sort of structure of the day of the
meeting, I love an agenda. So, if I have an agenda and I
love to know, you know, for for this podcast, you sent out the
questions in advance, that was great, because it meant that I
had the time to prepare doesn't necessarily mean that I'm
getting my point across but it made me feel better coming into
this and having that thinking time and I think it's in that
sort of meeting public open environment its It's not so it's
for other people to consider the introverts and and consider.
Well, I'm not necessarily going to get a response straight away
so I'll let them mull it over and then when they're ready, you
know, even somebody saying oh you know, Claire can you have a
think about this? I'll come back to you later.
That gives me that thinking time, but it also allows
everybody else to know that I am thinking about it.
And I'm not just sitting here quietly.
Natalie, what how can project teams better?
Capitalize on the strengths of introverts?
Bring one of the biggest things that leaders and project
managers can do to help. Introverts is it's going to
involve a little bit more time and that that's what makes us
really difficult because we're all strapped for time.
But what I mean by that it's taking the time to really get to
know how your team works. And initially that might be
having to have a few 12 ones with So I'll start with that.
Default of well, let's get to know new members of my team.
Let's do a one-to-one instead of in a group setting because let's
let us assume that they're most comfortable, the one to one and
then if when you talk to them you understand the ways of
working actually. They're happy and a bigger group
setting etcetera than great. You can work a bit more
efficiently in that way. And also to so particularly
when. So again, in preparation for
this is really reflecting on to how I was when I first started
my career. And actually, if somebody asked
me to start what's your preferred ways of working that
or how would you describe the ways of working?
I don't know that I really understood that but the start of
my career didn't really know how I like working what my
preference was. I knew how I liked working in a
lab setting but that's very different to Salting and project
management. So I think some of it as well as
leaders and PM's just really taking the time to be intuitive
and help someone on that journey and sort of observe what they
think somebody's preferences and sort of strengths are and then
having that conversation, especially if the individuals
really early in their career, I think that could be really
helpful. I'm being open to the idea that
actually that you need to muddle through that together in terms
of establishing somebody's preferred ways of working and
how they Thrive. And then what comes hand in hand
with that is thinking about sort of constantly of considering the
format of how you're running your project.
So particularly and Consulting your project team can change and
grow quite a lot as you have members come and go more
Consultants drawing. Be that from your own company.
P'nay other companies Etc. And that means you're always
getting a different balance of you know how people best work,
what they prefer etcetera. So even just being open and
checking in with. People wrecking saying is this
working for us now? Do we think that this format of
meeting is getting the best out of everyone?
Is this what everybody prefers or actually shall should we
change this? What suggestions do people have?
And being open to refreshing and updating so that ultimately,
you're getting the best out of each and every person who's part
of the team. I hopelessness of world will
gather kind of Confidence from what you've all contributed and
the advice that you've given it spin up.
See pleasure to have bring you all together and to to learn
what works and what and what doesn't.
So it just leaves me to say. Thank you very much for your
time. Thank you.
Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Thanks again to Alex constant. I'm Claire Hornsby and Lassie
Tolbert for joining us and to you for listening to this
episode of the APM podcast you'll find out more about being
an introvert in the project profession.
In apm's Project, journals spring 2023 issue.
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