1 00:00:08,550 --> 00:00:11,350 Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by the Chartered 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,750 Body for the Project Profession. This episode is part of our 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,820 series of Senior Leader Interviews hosted by APM Chief 4 00:00:17,830 --> 00:00:20,060 Executive Professor Adam Morrison. 5 00:00:20,410 --> 00:00:24,370 This time, Adam is speaking to Baroness Valentine, having 6 00:00:24,380 --> 00:00:26,860 started out working in Corporate finance in the city in the 7 00:00:26,870 --> 00:00:29,120 1980s. In recent years, Baroness 8 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:32,360 Valentine has had what she describes as a portfolio career. 9 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:36,310 Her current roles include Chair of Heathrow, Southern Railway 10 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:39,390 and Co Director of Place at Business in the Community. 11 00:00:39,980 --> 00:00:43,930 As of 2005, she also sits in the House of Lords as a crossbench 12 00:00:43,940 --> 00:00:46,680 member, with the current focus on levelling up. 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,740 She was also formally on the boards of both Crossrail and 14 00:00:50,750 --> 00:00:54,060 HS2. Listen on to here Adam and 15 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:56,900 Baroness Valentine discuss what she took from her time in the 16 00:00:56,910 --> 00:01:00,580 City into her later career, why the UK struggles to commit to 17 00:01:00,590 --> 00:01:03,420 long term infrastructure plans, and whether the business 18 00:01:03,430 --> 00:01:05,900 environment in general has become more inclusive. 19 00:01:10,260 --> 00:01:13,600 I'm delighted to be here today with the APM Podcast and to 20 00:01:13,610 --> 00:01:16,050 welcome today's guest Baroness Valentine. 21 00:01:16,060 --> 00:01:17,750 Welcome. Hello. 22 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:21,980 I'd like to start by asking you to tell us a bit about your 23 00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:25,600 career, if I may, from your days in the city, right through to 24 00:01:25,610 --> 00:01:28,640 your advocacy and charity roles and and of course the award of 25 00:01:28,650 --> 00:01:33,290 your peerage in 2005. I started in in corporate 26 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:36,260 finance in the 80s. It must have been. 27 00:01:36,270 --> 00:01:38,800 I was the first female and corporate finance department of 28 00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:41,320 bearings. I then went and did a 29 00:01:41,330 --> 00:01:44,420 regeneration project in Blackburn and Darwin, a 30 00:01:44,430 --> 00:01:49,560 completely different field. Then came back to work for BBC 31 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:54,500 student company leading on planning and finance. 32 00:01:54,710 --> 00:01:58,520 Then went to work for the London First I think which is a 33 00:01:58,530 --> 00:02:02,100 campaign group for London and then well and then sort of 34 00:02:02,110 --> 00:02:04,540 started a portfolio career during the 2000. 35 00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:08,340 So I've done National Lottery Commissioner, Peabody Housing 36 00:02:08,410 --> 00:02:11,570 Trust and at the moment I'm doing two days a week on 37 00:02:11,660 --> 00:02:15,110 levelling up essentially in sort of forgotten towns running OK, 38 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:19,010 but I was on Crossrail and HS two boards. 39 00:02:19,020 --> 00:02:23,410 For the purposes of this conversation I am currently on 40 00:02:23,460 --> 00:02:25,830 Value and Index Property Income Trust. 41 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,410 I'm obviously in the Lords as you mentioned I'm chairman or 42 00:02:30,420 --> 00:02:34,120 something called Heathrow Southern Railway and I just 43 00:02:34,130 --> 00:02:38,500 stopped being vice chair of UCL. So how you can make sense of all 44 00:02:38,510 --> 00:02:41,930 that, I don't know. I do sometimes reflect on it and 45 00:02:41,940 --> 00:02:44,650 think, well, why did it end up being like this? 46 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:48,190 Yes, a lot of twists and turns though I was really interested 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,990 that you you you went, particularly when you were 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,340 describing your move from the city through to to the 49 00:02:53,410 --> 00:02:56,040 regeneration work that you kind of described it as being 50 00:02:56,170 --> 00:02:58,780 completely different. I'm I'm, I've had a few twists 51 00:02:58,790 --> 00:03:01,440 and turns in my own career not quite as many as as you. 52 00:03:01,450 --> 00:03:03,820 But what I've found is that sometimes it's the most 53 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:08,300 unexpected things that you pick up in one aspect of your career 54 00:03:08,310 --> 00:03:10,780 that are really relevant to another aspect, probably in a 55 00:03:10,790 --> 00:03:13,110 way that was really unexpected. And I wonder whether you found 56 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,430 that in your move from the city into regeneration that there 57 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,900 were things that were really valuable that you've learned in 58 00:03:18,910 --> 00:03:21,440 the city that helped you in that regeneration work. 59 00:03:22,910 --> 00:03:27,080 The twists and turns are partly because I thought of myself as 60 00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:33,630 an equal to all the men around me and I was expecting ambitious 61 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:39,130 things of myself and that was until much later on, not not 62 00:03:39,140 --> 00:03:43,290 really how other people saw me. So that has caused some of the 63 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:47,830 twists and turns in terms of skill sets from different 64 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,030 things. Funnily enough, the corporate 65 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,990 finance side of things taught me, I mean there's all arrogance 66 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,090 to investment banks doing corporate finance. 67 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:00,930 And what you do is you you pull in as you know all the brokers 68 00:04:00,940 --> 00:04:05,350 and the whoever, the company and the accountants etcetera and and 69 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,520 you basically orchestrate what they all do against a very sharp 70 00:04:10,530 --> 00:04:14,030 deadline typically of a issue of shares or takeover or whatever 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,320 it is. And that taught me some some 72 00:04:17,390 --> 00:04:21,839 lessons which I've applied ever since I guess um which is I now 73 00:04:21,850 --> 00:04:25,850 and really have forever Carole stakeholders in one form or 74 00:04:25,860 --> 00:04:29,940 another to do things. And the other thing is it taught 75 00:04:29,950 --> 00:04:33,220 me about hard deadlines and in the public sector and the 76 00:04:33,230 --> 00:04:37,660 charity sector there doesn't seem to be as as clear and 77 00:04:37,670 --> 00:04:41,640 understanding of our deadline normally because there there 78 00:04:41,650 --> 00:04:44,300 isn't a real deadline. And the other thing for 79 00:04:44,310 --> 00:04:47,830 corporate finance is you absolutely don't talk about, you 80 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:49,890 know, if you've got a thank you for going on, you obviously 81 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:52,910 don't say it to party. You know I'm, I'm acting for 82 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,070 blah and they're taking over blah. 83 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,870 Whereas whereas the government has a very different 84 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,580 understanding of absolute secrecy like that. 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,360 You can reflect it on the challenges of being one of the, 86 00:05:06,370 --> 00:05:08,830 well, I think the only woman you were saying in in in some parts 87 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,030 of your career. Do you think we've got better 88 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,200 now as a, well, I'm thinking of the project profession, but 89 00:05:14,210 --> 00:05:16,170 probably the world of business more broadly. 90 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,390 And what more do you think we still need to do to really make 91 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,890 this a truly inclusive business environment? 92 00:05:24,350 --> 00:05:27,350 Yes, definitely got better. I mean I didn't know that I'm 93 00:05:27,550 --> 00:05:32,220 minded until I got to a 5050 male female environment in on 94 00:05:32,270 --> 00:05:35,590 London first. It was such a relief to not have 95 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,600 to talk about male subjects all the time. 96 00:05:37,610 --> 00:05:40,750 So you know in in in bearings it was sort of shooting and fishing 97 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:45,160 and in in Blackburn you know it was sort of you've got to do The 98 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:49,900 Dirty job for it to be a real job etcetera In in BC it was 99 00:05:49,970 --> 00:05:55,360 golfing I suppose but in in London first at last I managed 100 00:05:55,370 --> 00:05:58,110 to sort of you could move between subjects to have 101 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,760 conversations about rather than sort of stuck in in the ruts 102 00:06:01,770 --> 00:06:04,830 that have very male violent give you so. 103 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:08,970 So what have we got to learn. I was on a panel talking to a 104 00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:12,590 load of young people in round old city roundabout who would 105 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,770 techies young techies. And there are there are group of 106 00:06:15,780 --> 00:06:19,570 us oldies talking about it must have been a women's celebration 107 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:22,740 day or something talking about barriers to work and none of the 108 00:06:22,750 --> 00:06:25,590 youngsters in the audience understood what we were talking 109 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,570 about and they were also under 30 getting on with stuff. 110 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,810 My, my daughter worked for a tech company actually around 111 00:06:32,820 --> 00:06:37,690 there and they had a policy of automatically having average 112 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:40,120 male salaries the same as average female salaries. 113 00:06:40,180 --> 00:06:42,140 No matter who they brought in whatever. 114 00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:45,100 They would always average it out across the two sexes, which 115 00:06:45,150 --> 00:06:47,800 which I think is probably not good policy. 116 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:51,720 But I think some of the tech startup type things are 117 00:06:51,730 --> 00:06:53,540 innovative on this stuff and sometimes a bit clunky. 118 00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:56,240 But I thought it was great that they were doing it and that they 119 00:06:56,250 --> 00:07:00,980 understood, understood this. Your world feels a bit more 120 00:07:01,210 --> 00:07:05,240 staid and traditional, I suppose if you think of sort of railways 121 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:10,920 and and construction and that sort of side of things, it all 122 00:07:10,930 --> 00:07:14,240 still feels a bit male. You know you haven't got 123 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:18,320 somebody Network Rail female or Transport for London who's 124 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:22,210 female leading it. The the The funny thing was some 125 00:07:22,220 --> 00:07:23,770 environment. So I'm not talking about those 126 00:07:23,780 --> 00:07:28,160 two, but is when they're very male, they don't understand how 127 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:31,350 bad they look. If you're female. 128 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,080 We were talking earlier about the pictures on the wall, you 129 00:07:34,090 --> 00:07:37,430 know, if, if all the pictures are of men, if you go into a 130 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,740 training centre and you're female, you know, obviously 131 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:42,230 that's not quite working. Ditto ethnic minorities. 132 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,730 Obviously if all your pictures are white people that doesn't 133 00:07:44,740 --> 00:07:47,920 resonate everywhere. So I think role models are are 134 00:07:47,930 --> 00:07:51,050 very important. It was interesting in your 135 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:54,380 reflections there on particular sectors, you know, the kind of 136 00:07:54,390 --> 00:07:56,430 the gender balance in different sectors. 137 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,750 One of the things I excites me about the project profession is 138 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,050 that, you know, whilst it started in kind of telecoms, 139 00:08:03,060 --> 00:08:06,840 infrastructure, construction and so on, it's really broadened out 140 00:08:06,850 --> 00:08:10,240 now to be kind of a truly kind of pan sector profession. 141 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,630 And what's really interesting is, you know, we've now got some 142 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,570 sectors, uh, you know, education being a good example, where 143 00:08:15,580 --> 00:08:18,450 actually you get a gender skewed the other way. 144 00:08:18,460 --> 00:08:20,990 And I'm, I'm hoping that as a whole that helps to kind of 145 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,550 balance things out across the profession. 146 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,790 But you're absolutely right, there's certain sectors where 147 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,490 there's definitely much more more to be done. 148 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:29,060 One of the things I've been reflecting on, which is whether 149 00:08:29,750 --> 00:08:32,260 the project profession actually has a bit of an image problem. 150 00:08:32,270 --> 00:08:35,620 Because in my, in my mind, before I got involved with a PM, 151 00:08:35,630 --> 00:08:38,240 I always kind of had this idea that I don't know, project 152 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:41,659 managers are all about kind of Gantt charts and templates and, 153 00:08:41,710 --> 00:08:44,740 you know, telling people what to do and, you know, probably 154 00:08:44,750 --> 00:08:47,000 limited to certain sectors. And, you know, my eyes have been 155 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:49,300 opened really. And so I do wonder whether 156 00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:51,890 they're particularly leaders when they're really 157 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:54,710 organisations are not particularly aware of the 158 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,700 project profession. I wonder whether they just think 159 00:08:56,710 --> 00:09:00,280 it's a really technical kind of administration type thing rather 160 00:09:00,290 --> 00:09:04,220 than something that really adds value in terms of delivery, 161 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:05,820 particularly strategy delivery, you know? 162 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:10,330 In business 11 is basically doing project and programme 163 00:09:10,340 --> 00:09:14,060 management all the time of what happened level you're operating 164 00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:16,640 with. One probably doesn't think of it 165 00:09:16,650 --> 00:09:19,420 as a sort of profession whilst doing it. 166 00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:22,940 So yes I think you know as as I started I I I'd sort of 167 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:25,970 pigeonholed it into railways when you asked me the question 168 00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:31,380 but I'm I'm I'm well aware of the need for the expertise daily 169 00:09:31,530 --> 00:09:35,560 from everybody really. Some bits of the civil service 170 00:09:35,570 --> 00:09:40,200 have got this really well honed. Some bits are in terms of what I 171 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:44,440 want out of the civil service it's often not well homed but 172 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:49,380 but the charity sector this this bizarre thing about having to 173 00:09:49,390 --> 00:09:54,260 have impact evaluation. But it it appears to me to be a 174 00:09:54,270 --> 00:09:59,120 substitute for the fact that people haven't really said this 175 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:02,400 is my objective. You know this will happen if 176 00:10:02,410 --> 00:10:06,580 I've if I've done it but the way that both the charity sector and 177 00:10:06,590 --> 00:10:10,860 the public sector use sort of KPI's it's sort of box ticking I 178 00:10:10,870 --> 00:10:14,820 suppose is what I'm trying to say and because they use the box 179 00:10:14,830 --> 00:10:17,960 ticking they failed to do the the big picture objective. 180 00:10:18,670 --> 00:10:20,760 So there's something in that space. 181 00:10:21,980 --> 00:10:23,280 Understand exactly what you mean. 182 00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:25,940 I was having a conversation actually just yesterday and I 183 00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:29,840 put four statistics up on the screen about what percentage of 184 00:10:29,850 --> 00:10:32,020 projects have been successful over the past. 185 00:10:32,030 --> 00:10:33,440 I think it was the past five years. 186 00:10:33,630 --> 00:10:35,240 Um. And I asked people you know 187 00:10:35,250 --> 00:10:38,140 which statistic they thought was right and it went from kind of 188 00:10:38,230 --> 00:10:42,180 nought .5% of projects are successful right through to 30%. 189 00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:44,500 None of them particularly optimistic I should say. 190 00:10:44,650 --> 00:10:47,040 And the reality was they were all correct because it depended 191 00:10:47,050 --> 00:10:50,240 on how you determined what we meant by project success. 192 00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:53,780 Because some of those statistics were, were really saying 193 00:10:53,870 --> 00:10:57,290 actually if you deliver your project on time within budget to 194 00:10:57,300 --> 00:11:00,380 the required specification, then that's that's the measure of 195 00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:01,960 access. But others were, you know, 196 00:11:02,390 --> 00:11:05,190 exactly to the point that you're you're saying we're saying, well 197 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,440 actually that's that's only part of the job. 198 00:11:07,510 --> 00:11:10,650 You only really know if it's been successful, if you realise 199 00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:13,140 the benefits. And that might be 10 years after 200 00:11:13,150 --> 00:11:16,280 you've finished the actual core delivery if you like. 201 00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:19,130 So I think that vision, I suppose, of what what we mean by 202 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:22,210 success is not consistently understood in in my opinion. 203 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,930 No, I mean I have this very much on on the levelling network I'm 204 00:11:25,940 --> 00:11:29,910 doing in the towns around around the UK at the moment because 205 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,550 clearly if you're tackling deprivation you're not going to 206 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:38,250 sort that out overnight and yet you don't want an excuse for you 207 00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:41,010 know spending lots of time researching or just twiddling 208 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:45,230 your thumbs in the in the 25 years while you wait for the for 209 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,050 the deprivation measure to actually change sustainably. 210 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:51,570 So. So we we tend to do milestones 211 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:54,890 along the way that we think will impact the the deprivation 212 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:58,240 statistic and then sort of check them every year. 213 00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:01,070 So when we were campaigning on Crossrail when I was at at 214 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,360 London first, our objective obviously was to get Crossrail, 215 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:07,920 but we would have getting it through Parliament as you know, 216 00:12:08,070 --> 00:12:11,360 one objective or whatever it is each year we would have a a 217 00:12:11,370 --> 00:12:15,610 milestone objective so that you genuinely are making progress, 218 00:12:15,620 --> 00:12:18,070 you hope. Well, let's talk about some of 219 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,640 the specific areas that you, you've kind of, you know, 220 00:12:20,650 --> 00:12:23,720 touched on as as you've been giving your responses so far. 221 00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:25,460 So let's let's maybe start with Crossrail. 222 00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:29,750 I think you sat on the border Cross Rail from 2019 to 2020 and 223 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,520 this was a project that you know, experienced widely 224 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:35,670 publicised delays, cost overruns. 225 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:39,280 But actually despite all of that, if you ask people now the 226 00:12:39,290 --> 00:12:41,600 Elizabeth lines there, you know what do they think of it? 227 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:44,820 It was really credited both for the end product but also for the 228 00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:47,800 successful turn around and the grand opening and so on. 229 00:12:47,950 --> 00:12:51,420 I just wondered what your insights and reflections were 230 00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:54,280 from your time on the Crossrail board and and that kind of 231 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:59,640 almost 180° turn around there? So I think you know big 232 00:12:59,650 --> 00:13:02,800 infrastructure projects that that disrupt people and spend a 233 00:13:02,810 --> 00:13:07,040 lot of money look like white elephants I suppose as you run 234 00:13:07,050 --> 00:13:10,240 into them. I mean the the time that I was 235 00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:14,320 on the Crossrail board. So I came in after all that 236 00:13:14,330 --> 00:13:17,260 trouble with cost overruns and it wasn't finished and all that 237 00:13:17,270 --> 00:13:19,260 things. So we were a new board came in 238 00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:24,420 in it was it 2019, you said I was there and when I left it was 239 00:13:24,430 --> 00:13:27,940 because the the Crossrail went in underneath Transport for 240 00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:32,480 London, so it was brought much more under the Transport for 241 00:13:32,490 --> 00:13:35,880 London umbrella. So the the line and the stations 242 00:13:35,890 --> 00:13:39,180 were pretty much built by the time I arrived. 243 00:13:39,230 --> 00:13:42,780 There were thousands and thousands of snagging issues and 244 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:46,220 of course the suspicion that all the consultants working on it 245 00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:49,160 are just trying to do more work because that's how they get 246 00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:50,820 paid. So they're just going to find 247 00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:54,680 another snag and recommend how you deal with it and blah blah 248 00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:59,920 blah blah. My perception about that was 249 00:13:59,930 --> 00:14:04,680 that unless Transport for London really started pulling Crossrail 250 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:08,250 into Transport for London, they would never get. 251 00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:10,990 They were going to keep going round in circles because it was 252 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,280 never in Crossrail's interest to hand over to TF LA Station that 253 00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:18,760 might have something wrong with it, you know? 254 00:14:18,850 --> 00:14:21,340 So Crossrail wanted to make sure they've they've dotted all the 255 00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:24,120 eyes across all the teeth From Transport for London's 256 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:27,440 perspective, they didn't want to take on the headache of an 257 00:14:27,450 --> 00:14:29,960 additional line and station that they had to manage. 258 00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:33,960 So at the time, it looked like a headache from TFL's perspective 259 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:38,250 and no real incentive to complete on the Crossrail side, 260 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:40,610 even though allegedly there there was. 261 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,860 Because you've got all that baggage of all the consultants 262 00:14:43,870 --> 00:14:46,160 and contractors working for you that they're in. 263 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:49,650 They're not. I don't know how you would you 264 00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:51,790 would know better than me how to incentivise properly in that 265 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,050 sort of situation. But but government does seem to 266 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:57,400 get itself into position where one just hires loads and I've 267 00:14:57,410 --> 00:15:00,590 got nothing against consultants. Please don't take it to this but 268 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,230 as loads of people and and then doesn't really know how to 269 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,750 control them. The other thing I remember 270 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,880 clearly from that era was we had a risk register. 271 00:15:09,890 --> 00:15:12,590 But I was, I was looking at risk registers and thinking actually 272 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,210 are these real, You know, there's 500 risks. 273 00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:17,950 Yeah. Does anybody ever really think 274 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,550 about them? So I'm always keen on on risk, 275 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,190 risk registers, whatever you want to call the strategic risk 276 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,320 register of sort of 5:00-ish risks that you actually can sort 277 00:15:29,330 --> 00:15:30,890 of touch and feel and get your head around. 278 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,270 And in Crossroads guys, they had a risk register roughly of that 279 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,570 type. I gonna have an 100 items 280 00:15:39,580 --> 00:15:43,710 whatever. And but it wasn't connected to 281 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,730 network rails risk register and TFL's risk register and I said 282 00:15:47,740 --> 00:15:52,800 for goodness for goodness sake you know this is your trains are 283 00:15:52,810 --> 00:15:55,530 going to come out and go on to Network Rail tracks and they've 284 00:15:55,540 --> 00:15:59,670 got to come out and you know tear on these things and these 285 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,940 risks need to be aligned anyway that did happen but it didn't 286 00:16:04,950 --> 00:16:08,890 seem to be obvious to people that that needed to happen which 287 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:13,070 I found odd but the other thing is we we did have Network Rail 288 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:19,070 coming in updating us monthly or by multi remember but we we 289 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,640 weren't good but saying actually because this sort of risk 290 00:16:22,650 --> 00:16:26,300 register thing wasn't clear what is the information we we want 291 00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:28,040 you to give. So all they would do is come up 292 00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:30,700 come up and say you know we've we've done some work with some 293 00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:33,090 concrete on platform on reading or whatever it is. 294 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:34,850 You know, we've done our homework here. 295 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:37,680 Here's what we've done as opposed to, you know, this is 296 00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:40,040 what we we need to be doing by when. 297 00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:42,840 This is what's working. This is not what's not working. 298 00:16:43,830 --> 00:16:46,230 That's really insightful. Thank you and and and a couple 299 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,010 of things for those people listening to to to this podcast. 300 00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:52,980 So we APM has partnered with both Crossrail and with HS2 to 301 00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:55,320 to produce learning legacy type documents. 302 00:16:55,410 --> 00:16:57,890 They're available on the app and website and for people who are 303 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:00,810 interested in knowing more about some of the lessons learned on 304 00:17:00,820 --> 00:17:04,240 those two projects of which there have been many, then you 305 00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:06,000 you, you, you can obviously access those. 306 00:17:06,050 --> 00:17:08,500 But I wanted to just pick up on one thing you said if if if I 307 00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:12,240 may by Baroness Valentine which was you talked about some of the 308 00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:15,940 kind of contractors who might be in the supply chain where 309 00:17:15,950 --> 00:17:19,280 there's almost no incentive to kind of do a good job if you 310 00:17:19,290 --> 00:17:21,390 like or not. Well, not no incentive, maybe 311 00:17:21,589 --> 00:17:25,810 not not lots of incentives to do a good job because actually you 312 00:17:25,819 --> 00:17:27,250 don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. 313 00:17:27,260 --> 00:17:29,690 And for the project goes on longer, that's obviously good 314 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:31,610 because that's where your income comes from. 315 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,490 But I think there's also another issue, which is if something's 316 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:37,930 going wrong, what's the incentive to call it out and say 317 00:17:37,940 --> 00:17:41,480 that it's going wrong early on because that might also get you 318 00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:44,110 kind of booted off the project, especially if it's, you know, in 319 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:46,510 your area. And all of those things kind of 320 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,340 fall into this category of what I think of a strategic 321 00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:53,190 misrepresentation where right the way through the supply chain 322 00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:56,880 you might for different reasons, you've got people who are not 323 00:17:56,890 --> 00:17:59,880 being totally transparent about what the reality of the 324 00:17:59,890 --> 00:18:02,790 situation is. So those making the strategic 325 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,710 decisions might have the risk register and everything in front 326 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,610 of them like you've just described, but that's not 327 00:18:07,620 --> 00:18:10,420 necessarily giving an accurate picture of what's going on. 328 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,390 That was allegedly very true across rail before before I got 329 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,470 on the board. So it's as you will know the the 330 00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:22,090 there was a sort of flare up with it when it was alleged to 331 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,820 be ready and then and then it was two years away and and that 332 00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:28,870 was absolutely alleged to be an issue that the that the issues 333 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,830 at mid level were ground level were not being surfaced to the 334 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,370 top And I think that's poor line management. 335 00:18:34,820 --> 00:18:37,730 That's just that just is poor line management. 336 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,500 Well, I think I'm not meaning to blame anyone. 337 00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:44,980 I think of all the people I work with on these things are are are 338 00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:49,440 generally very good and generally trying trying to do a 339 00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:54,630 good job. We're a PM, the only chartered 340 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,180 membership organisation for the project profession. 341 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,890 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 342 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:03,670 support you need to make an impact delivering better 343 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,310 projects with better outcomes. Plus you'll access exclusive 344 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,910 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 345 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:14,210 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 346 00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:19,460 apm.org.uk, Because when projects succeed, society 347 00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:24,420 benefits. Can we move on to to business in 348 00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:26,550 the community because you mentioned that as well earlier 349 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,430 on ahead of this kind of conversation. 350 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,330 I, I, I, I wouldn't have a a look on the website and and I 351 00:19:31,340 --> 00:19:36,170 really like the focus on kind of green and sustainability and and 352 00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:38,720 so on and combining that with the kind of the business side of 353 00:19:38,730 --> 00:19:42,280 things, it was obviously very strong within business in the 354 00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:44,630 community. I don't see that as strongly in 355 00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:47,110 every business. Do you think businesses have got 356 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,640 a lot to learn from business in the community? 357 00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:52,630 You know, why do you think not everybody has got that razor 358 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,570 sharp focus on on green, the business in the community's got? 359 00:19:57,370 --> 00:19:59,740 When you get down to people who are really struggling with cost 360 00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:02,260 of living and things like that, whether you're being green is 361 00:20:02,270 --> 00:20:04,800 secondary to to whether you can eat for the day. 362 00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:08,120 So at business security, one of the things we're just newly 363 00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:10,840 doing is as a community climate fund. 364 00:20:11,610 --> 00:20:15,820 Which is trying to help communities move to net zero and 365 00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:18,070 we're trying to be innovative about different ways of doing 366 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,400 that. But it but it's really simplest, 367 00:20:20,410 --> 00:20:25,540 it would be putting solar panels on a on a community building or 368 00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:28,720 doing allotments to get local food production, whatever. 369 00:20:29,050 --> 00:20:32,610 But you can see perfectly well why there's residents don't have 370 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:36,520 it as priority and that connects quite closely to SME's. 371 00:20:36,610 --> 00:20:41,610 And so SME's likewise probably don't largely have it as a 372 00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:44,160 priority because they sort of don't have the luxury of 373 00:20:44,220 --> 00:20:47,620 thinking about it. If you then talk about larger 374 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:51,900 companies, I guess you need to look through to the investors. 375 00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:57,990 I'm not sure whether the city and their investors is is quite 376 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,770 a sharp edged as they could be on on this green stuff and we 377 00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:06,770 wish you the green bond in in UCL which was which was 378 00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:10,650 interesting but but there's a question I guess as an investor 379 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:14,330 are you prepared to take a slightly lower dividend or 380 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:19,570 interest rate for something being green and and most 381 00:21:19,580 --> 00:21:23,270 companies aren't having that sort of conversation with their 382 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,450 investors and that would be interesting. 383 00:21:25,460 --> 00:21:28,530 So if you're not in that space, you're basically looking at 384 00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:34,650 technology which is is green or satisfying regulation or or 385 00:21:34,660 --> 00:21:36,020 stuff you can do that doesn't cost. 386 00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:38,740 You kind of touched on levelling up as well. 387 00:21:38,750 --> 00:21:41,460 I know this is something that's really close to your heart. 388 00:21:41,470 --> 00:21:43,440 I wonder if you might tell me what you see as the main 389 00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:47,430 challenges in rebalancing wealth and opportunity across the UK. 390 00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:54,230 I don't know whether the aim is to whether whether a credible 391 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,440 aim is to rebalance the economy and it does play into the 392 00:21:57,450 --> 00:22:01,480 question about London's role in the in the UK but and I'm very 393 00:22:01,530 --> 00:22:05,160 anti any suggestion that London should be levelled down but so I 394 00:22:05,170 --> 00:22:09,120 think if you're looking at a bunch of difficult places there 395 00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:11,470 there must be loads of around the UK. 396 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,050 It's probably 1000 from the sort of thing I do, which is to go in 397 00:22:17,060 --> 00:22:22,760 and try and get local stakeholders to buy into a a 398 00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:26,500 route map where where they with some help from others, can 399 00:22:26,510 --> 00:22:30,160 actually identify where they want to get to and start work on 400 00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:33,440 getting turning around a tower. So Blackpool I did a lot of work 401 00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:36,920 in, so setting an agenda for action and then actually 402 00:22:36,990 --> 00:22:39,560 implementing it. I would love the levelling up 403 00:22:39,570 --> 00:22:43,670 department to work better with what I do. 404 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,930 I I don't need a lot from them. I just need to strategic 405 00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:50,670 engagement and a bit of match funding for some of the stuff we 406 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,170 do. They throw millions at places 407 00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:56,810 but but actually in the early days we're just trying to get 408 00:22:56,820 --> 00:22:58,730 people aligned to a common agenda. 409 00:22:58,740 --> 00:23:01,500 You don't need a lot of money at that front end but actually it's 410 00:23:01,540 --> 00:23:04,050 sometimes counterproductive to put in money before you've got 411 00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:09,270 the trust built locally. But so I think places need to 412 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,900 have the right dynamic to start levelling up and sometimes 413 00:23:13,910 --> 00:23:18,370 you've got weak councils and sometimes you've got weak 414 00:23:18,380 --> 00:23:21,550 business, sometimes the communities are at war with each 415 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,650 other, whatever. So it for me it feels like a 416 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:31,470 constant ambition but going with the grain of where it's possible 417 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,210 and and being smart about going in and supporting other 418 00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:38,670 Manchester combined authority if they if they if they're starting 419 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,010 to move in the right direction, getting behind them and really 420 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,390 helping make that happen. So it's a very difficult 421 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:51,150 question now you level up a country and as any government of 422 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,440 the future will be thinking about. 423 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,790 You obviously are a a huge advocate for for London as well. 424 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,890 You mentioned that in there you know you don't want no 425 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:04,710 suggestion at all of 11 debt levelling down London and I'm 426 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,310 just reflecting on your your time running London first 427 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,610 obviously now called Business London which advocated for still 428 00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:14,330 advocates for London as a business hub. 429 00:24:14,420 --> 00:24:17,630 There is that view that that we're quite London centric as a 430 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,870 country and that's a kind of barrier to economic growth in 431 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,210 other places. What do you say to those kind of 432 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,130 people who have that, who have that view? 433 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:31,070 Are they right? Yes, Um, we've got power bases 434 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,730 in London, which are the City, the government and to a lesser 435 00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:37,460 extent probably higher education. 436 00:24:38,230 --> 00:24:42,130 I'm always disappointed when ministers and civil servants say 437 00:24:42,140 --> 00:24:46,300 they're coming up to Sheffield or Blackpool or whatever and 438 00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:49,820 they they cancel because in their eyes something more 439 00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:52,960 important has come up. And that just to me says such a 440 00:24:52,970 --> 00:24:56,560 lot about the attitude. So, you know, if you're going 441 00:24:56,570 --> 00:25:02,340 out to somewhere that really values your turning up and 442 00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:05,620 cares, you know, about work stuff, then that needs to be far 443 00:25:05,630 --> 00:25:09,620 better respected than thinking that a minister suddenly, I 444 00:25:09,630 --> 00:25:12,030 don't know, the Secretary of State called you into a meeting. 445 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,440 The Secretary of State should be told I've already got a meeting 446 00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:18,000 up in Blackpool though I'm not coming but that's you know that 447 00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:20,380 that would be that's not the way it works. 448 00:25:21,050 --> 00:25:26,080 So if I were thinking about UK long term I would definitely 449 00:25:26,190 --> 00:25:31,100 seek to move probably government out of London in some way. 450 00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:32,800 They're always theoretically doing that. 451 00:25:32,810 --> 00:25:37,160 I think devolution is the much the strongest lever for doing 452 00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:38,700 that. So I think the combined 453 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:43,220 authorities, the mayoral things is is is a good, good direction 454 00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:45,870 of travel and and both parties are really heading in that 455 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,180 direction. Let's talk a bit about securing 456 00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:52,460 government backing for projects at the moment. 457 00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:56,230 Sometimes we see projects getting approved which are, I 458 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,040 don't know, maybe pet projects or vanity projects or ones that 459 00:25:59,050 --> 00:26:02,420 are politically expedient rather than necessarily always the 460 00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:05,660 right projects and programmes that will be, you know, the best 461 00:26:05,670 --> 00:26:09,440 for society long term. Why do you think that kind of 462 00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:12,380 thing happens, and and what do you think government could or 463 00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:17,300 should do about it? Well, I I mean I hoped the 464 00:26:17,310 --> 00:26:20,080 National Infrastructure Commission was going to be, um, 465 00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:22,940 helpful on this. I mean we seemed to be so bad at 466 00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:26,580 committing to long term plans and infrastructure plans in this 467 00:26:26,590 --> 00:26:29,140 country. I have to go across across 468 00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:32,260 parliaments. So you know you need to be 20 469 00:26:32,270 --> 00:26:34,960 years. In fact my the chief executive 470 00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:39,300 of Heathrow Southern Railway was in was in Berlin two days ago 471 00:26:39,310 --> 00:26:42,120 and just talking about how the Germans do to who of course have 472 00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:45,750 a much clearer plan which has the disadvantage of if you can't 473 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:51,220 change it very easily. So I'm probably mindless that 474 00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:53,930 the wrong projects are done. So I think if there are 475 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,840 infrastructure projects which have some benefit and have 476 00:26:59,850 --> 00:27:03,660 little disc benefit, I mean not not enough are done by thinking 477 00:27:03,670 --> 00:27:07,680 about the wider wider social environmental impact which which 478 00:27:07,690 --> 00:27:12,450 I hope the treasury is beginning to get better at but but but you 479 00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:15,340 know who who is 1 to judge what are what are right and the wrong 480 00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:19,060 project is but but I do think we desperately need a long term 481 00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:22,560 direction of travel and and and I'm thinking particularly of the 482 00:27:22,570 --> 00:27:25,160 airport stuff so. So you know we set up the 483 00:27:25,170 --> 00:27:27,740 Airports Commission to decide what we were doing, but then 484 00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:32,440 we've essentially not been doing what it recommended for 10 years 485 00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:37,530 now or whatever it is. So we just seem to be incapable 486 00:27:37,540 --> 00:27:40,210 of taking that long view. I when you when people talk 487 00:27:40,220 --> 00:27:44,730 about restructuring the Lords and the and the Commons, I would 488 00:27:44,780 --> 00:27:47,850 be quite interested in some relationship between the Lords 489 00:27:47,860 --> 00:27:51,730 and the Commons where where the Lords sort of owned the longer 490 00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:55,090 term plan. So so you could have some 20 491 00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,450 year plans on housing, education, whatever which will 492 00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:02,780 need to go across parliaments and and somehow the Lords could 493 00:28:02,790 --> 00:28:05,790 be the conscience of that where where the Commons is doing all 494 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,190 the political infighting and you know their their day-to-day 495 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,050 stuff. That would seem to me to be a 496 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,210 helpful role for the Lords. Yeah, it's really interesting 497 00:28:16,220 --> 00:28:17,350 idea. I've never thought about that 498 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,220 before, but it does make sense because obviously you've got 499 00:28:19,230 --> 00:28:22,010 more continuity in in in that house. 500 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,230 Just one final question before we probably need to wrap up. 501 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,190 Sometimes when I talk to senior civil servants, occasionally 502 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,910 politicians as well, they talked to me about the fact that 503 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,290 sometimes trying to get the right projects approved is 504 00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:38,140 really, really difficult because either they're going to cost too 505 00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:40,330 much money, they're not going to be completed within their 506 00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:43,030 political tenure. Maybe they've described the 507 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,150 situation where they kind of almost are not completely 508 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,890 transparent about the full complexity or full cost or how 509 00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:52,870 long the project's going to take up front. 510 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,970 Because they say, uh, it's much easier to get a project approved 511 00:28:57,980 --> 00:29:01,840 by going for something simpler and then and then to go through 512 00:29:01,850 --> 00:29:05,380 the change control process once a project is already approved. 513 00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:08,140 And that's an easier way of getting to the end game. 514 00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:11,920 And and of course, that just ends up costing the public purse 515 00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:14,820 a lot more because, you know, because we're not being clear 516 00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:17,260 about costs and things from the outset and it takes longer. 517 00:29:17,330 --> 00:29:19,960 And then we end up with all of this, you know, stuff in the 518 00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:22,660 media about projects failing because they're late and so on. 519 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:27,060 I mean, that feels to me like a, a really wrong way to go about 520 00:29:27,070 --> 00:29:28,580 things. I mean, is that a genuine 521 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:31,300 problem, do you think? Or or is it just something that 522 00:29:31,310 --> 00:29:34,120 happens occasionally? I mean I haven't thought about 523 00:29:34,130 --> 00:29:37,060 it quite that way, but when certainly what I see is, is 524 00:29:37,070 --> 00:29:40,900 projects going in that cost 2 billion which you know probably 525 00:29:40,910 --> 00:29:42,800 common sense would tell you cost 5 billion. 526 00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:47,580 I mean I I think the Treasury must be quite quite aware of 527 00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:51,040 this sort of issue. I I was thinking earlier about 528 00:29:51,050 --> 00:29:55,080 the the Department of Transport and Treasury and in managing 529 00:29:56,170 --> 00:30:00,080 projects like Crossrail or HS2 because I I always think the 530 00:30:00,090 --> 00:30:03,160 client really has to bear the brunt of the project doesn't 531 00:30:03,230 --> 00:30:05,940 work. So it's all very well saying HS2 532 00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:10,000 or Crossrail have failed but actually the governance going 533 00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:15,480 back up the chain is failing and you know it's all it's very easy 534 00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:20,720 again to beat up government departments but I think because 535 00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:25,330 no one quite has the authority to to be the client probably you 536 00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:27,340 know you've got the Treasury looking over your shoulder if 537 00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:32,300 you're the DfT so you never feel like you're quite in charge and 538 00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:37,160 it's something around that we we did it just two I think where I 539 00:30:37,170 --> 00:30:40,840 think that the the risks on a project we're doing would looked 540 00:30:40,850 --> 00:30:45,120 at 9 times before they were authorised and we actually 541 00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:48,720 worked out that we were building risk in by doing that process 542 00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:54,250 rather than reducing risk. So there's something about that 543 00:30:54,260 --> 00:30:57,800 whole process which which is very unhealthy. 544 00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:00,290 I think the Infrastructure Projects Authority, you know 545 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:04,950 there's there's been attempts to to to to deal with these things 546 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,090 better, but they're thought of as processes, whereas actually 547 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:13,270 the sort of accountability that needs to be sorted out probably 548 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,400 why you've got a strong lead. I think Michael Gove is a strong 549 00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:20,590 leader on on on levelling up. You can then sort of hold the 550 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,950 Fort a bit better, but mostly things aren't strongly led to 551 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,830 the minister changes, Secretary of State changes, etcetera. 552 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,030 So I don't. I don't know what the solution 553 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,210 is, I'm afraid. OK. 554 00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:35,810 Well, yeah, it's good to hear your reflections on that. 555 00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:38,410 But Baroness Valentine, thank you very much for your time. 556 00:31:38,420 --> 00:31:40,480 It's been a pleasure. Thank you. 557 00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:48,290 I've enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for joining us for 558 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:51,970 this episode of the APM Podcast. If you enjoyed it, don't forget 559 00:31:51,980 --> 00:31:54,690 to subscribe. Leave us a review, but why not 560 00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:59,220 contact us with your feedback at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk? 561 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:03,220 For more on levelling up, check out the resources published by 562 00:32:03,230 --> 00:32:07,120 APM as part of its Future Lives and Landscapes campaign, which 563 00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:10,460 seeks to raise awareness of the social value of projects by 564 00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:13,000 highlighting the many benefits they create for people and 565 00:32:13,010 --> 00:32:16,540 communities, and by helping practitioners and organisations 566 00:32:16,550 --> 00:32:19,880 incorporate benefits into projects to shape the future 567 00:32:19,890 --> 00:32:23,120 economic, social and physical landscape of the UK. 568 00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:26,260 To find out more such future lives and landscapes at 569 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:30,270 apm.org.uk or see the link in the episode description. 570 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,660 That's it from us for today. Thanks for listening.