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Welcome to the APM Podcast, 
brought to you by The Chartered 

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Body for the project profession.
My name is Emma De Vita, and I'm

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the editor of APM's Quarterly 
Journal, Project and Your host. 

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In June, APM held its annual 
conference in Birmingham under 

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the heading of Change Changes. 
The event explored how the 

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project profession must adapt to
the changing nature of change 

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itself in a world of increasing 
uncertainty and complexity. 

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It emphasised the enormous 
contribution that projects can 

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and do make to forging a 
cleaner, safer, more prosperous 

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and more inclusive society. 
The day kicked off with an 

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inspiring talk from Carmel 
McConnell, founder of Magic 

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Breakfast and longtime project 
professional, about the 

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importance of having purpose in 
your work and how projects 

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should be used to bring about 
some good in society and the 

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environment. 
Her presentation set the tone of

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the day, and there followed 
honest and thoughtful 

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conversations about how project 
delivery can be improved and how

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project professionals can gain a
sense of real fulfilment from 

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their work. 
The place was buzzing with new 

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ideas and shared experience, and
this podcast We've compiled some

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of the key insights that emerge 
from the first stream of 

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sessions at the conference, 
which will focus on the 

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transformative impacts that 
projects can have both on 

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individual lives as well as 
economic, social and physical 

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landscapes. 
So listen on to hear highlights,

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including what happens when a 
project needs a reset, the cost 

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of social value projects, and 
the future of professional 

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bodies in a rapidly changing 
world. 

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In our first clip, we hear from 
Joe Stanford. 

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Joe is a project professional 
who has spent 20 years working 

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in the healthcare sector and is 
currently CEO of the Healthcare 

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Projects in Change Association. 
She appeared on a panel that 

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considered the challenge of 
measuring social benefits. 

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So there are ways to measure 
social benefits and if you look 

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at the management of portfolios,
it talks about the social return

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on investment and how you kind 
of calculate some of that. 

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The challenge is more about the 
practical application of it. 

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So having worked on projects 
where they've had to have, you 

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know, impact assessments that 
look at the long term benefits 

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of changes to things like 
legislation and regulations, 

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part of that calculation is 
looking at translating health 

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outcomes and the increased 
improvement in health or the 

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reduction in the use of services
because people are being 

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treated. 
Poster there are ways of 

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measuring it and there's there's
tools and and guidance out there

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so. 
So there there are definitely 

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the tools for doing that. 
The the problem often is how you

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then review and evaluate it and 
certainly the Department of 

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Health and Social Care hasn't 
really got to the point where 

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it's able to then evidence how 
well it's delivered. 

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I once had a a chat with the 
chief economist at DHS who used 

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to sign off all of the impact 
assessments and used to do all 

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of the calculations of them and 
that was at the start of the 

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project to say you know what is 
it we're going to achieve. 

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And I said to him, How many of 
these did the you then? 

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Evaluate to measure whether or 
not what was in the impact 

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assessment was actually achieved
in practise and he said none 

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ever. 
So part of the problem and and 

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we we kind of discussing this 
sort of earlier is that where 

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you have a very much focus on 
say one year budgets or 

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three-year rounds or you've got 
a focus on delivery but not 

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outcomes And your measures are 
well the business plan for this 

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year is we're going to deliver 
this, this, this and this and 

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you go and So what where is the 
measure of the outcome being? 

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Reviewed and achieved to say not
just are we delivering stuff, 

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but what are we measuring in 
terms of the benefits. 

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And that's an organisational 
portfolio issue. 

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It's the it's where the the 
business plan should be 

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translated into outcome measures
that say whether or not we are 

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achieving it. 
And I think there's a real gap 

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here between the project 
profession that might be looking

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at, well, with this project 
we're going to achieve these 

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outcomes, but we don't achieve 
them. 

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The business achieves them. 
Who's working with the 

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operational delivery teams to 
say and how are you reviewing 

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and monitoring and measuring the
outcomes of the changes that are

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being made? 
I think there's a big piece of 

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work to do for the project 
profession and the sort of 

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business and upside of things to
work together on that as a more 

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holistic approach. 
I think the cross fertilisation 

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and and working between 
professions to deliver those 

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outcomes and measure them is the
gap that we need to work on 

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collectively. 
Our second clip is taken from 

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the panel session on Remapping 
for Success, which explored why 

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it is incumbent on project 
professionals to ensure that 

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projects are properly set up and
resourced so they can achieve 

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vital social outcomes. 
The panel was asked whether, in 

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their view, organisations are 
prepared to introduce social 

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value benefits and projects if 
they increase the upfront costs.

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So let's hear the views of all 
three panellists, Gillian McGee 

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of AstraZeneca, Andrew Morgan of
HMRC and Mike Hudson of the 

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National Trust. 
So I I, I run some of the 

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governance for our portfolio of 
projects and and through the 

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various gateways that we have 
for approvals we actively now 

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factor that in and yes sometimes
it does increase the cost of 

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delivery. 
But you know I I I don't I I I 

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honestly don't see that we have 
a choice because we can't when 

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when we're I'm I'm particularly 
thinking about some of the 

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global sustainability challenges
around carbon efficiency and so 

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on. 
I I I just don't think it's 

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responsible for us to be 
sponsoring projects where we're 

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not taking an opportunity to 
make that better. 

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I think we've building on what 
you're saying, I I think we've 

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been used to producing cost 
estimates. 

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But again talking with a number 
of attendees today, an area that

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often concerns us more is 
perhaps estimates of the pounds 

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benefit and in the social value 
arena sometimes that can be 

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really difficult to put real 
pounds against. 

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Often it's seen more as 
intangible benefits. 

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And so I think there are some 
real opportunities there in 

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terms of growing our capability 
for improving benefit estimation

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and of course that then came to 
balances the view in terms of 

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the. 
Effective inflation on cost and 

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so on and so forth because 
potentially we we kind of see 

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that affecting the benefit side 
as well. 

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Yeah, I mean, I I guess for us 
they're so caught to what we do 

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that and that you're absolutely 
right. 

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There will be trade-offs in 
terms of what what is ultimately

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affordable, but it may work the 
other way. 

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It may be that. 
Projects that can't start to 

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demonstrate social benefit or 
that they're the ones that ended

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up getting, you know, 
deprioritised and it's the ones 

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with social benefit included 
that that do. 

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I mean, I think there is a 
challenge around how we, how we 

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measure, but yeah, so I don't 
personally see them getting. 

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Crowded out. 
The next clip is taken from a 

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session entitled Calling for a 
Reset in Response to Change, 

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which looked at when it is 
necessary to reset a project or 

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programme that has strayed off 
course, and how to make that 

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happen. 
Here is Jack Hewitt, an 

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associate and programme and 
project management at global 

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built environment consultancy 
firm Arab, discussing the role 

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of the project manager in 
identifying the need for reset. 

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You almost think about the 
different types of roles that 

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people in a project team or a 
programme team would play at the

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point of a reset. 
And I think if I were to look at

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it through that lens the the 
first person that I'd come to, I

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mean fundamentally you're not 
going to achieve a reset without

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a project manager putting their 
hand up and saying something 

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needs to happen here. 
We're at risk of of not 

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achieving our stated objectives,
outcomes, benefits, whatever it 

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may be. 
But I think that that's almost 

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take that as a given and I think
probably the the next personal 

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role with a particular skill set
that's valuable. 

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There is the sponsor for that 
project and that might be a 

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senior responsible officer in 
some palaces. 

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It might be a project sponsor in
other certainly in my 

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infrastructure. 
World project sponsor is the the

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one that always comes through 
strongly. 

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But having an advocate there 
that's not part of the project 

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delivery team but understands 
the context and help us help 

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develop the business case in the
first instance and knows what 

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the targets of the project are. 
Having them embedded in that 

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kind of progressive assurance 
type position throughout the 

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life cycle of the project means 
that number one, they can be 

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really astute in identifying any
deviations that might be 

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beginning to occur on the 
project but also be they have 

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that further reach within the 
the client organisation or your 

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own organisation whichever part 
of the project that you come 

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from. 
But having the reach and the 

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resources and the knowledge and 
experience of the. 

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Answer is really valuable in 
terms of getting the message out

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there as to something needs to 
change here and I think finally 

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perhaps a little bit of a left 
field one, but one that 

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certainly to me is really 
important is someone. 

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They don't have to be a 
dedicated benefits management 

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professional, but someone who 
understands that there are 

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broader, particularly in this 
stream for today's event, social

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benefits, for example, social 
value benefits that are involved

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in projects. 
Having someone that is tracking,

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monitoring and doing that across
the business and drops into 

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particular projects with a with 
a strong understanding of them. 

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They can be crucial in terms of 
helping to spot the risks of of 

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of needing a reset and then to 
help manage the process of 

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delivering them to. 
A final clip comes from a panel 

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session that asks the question, 
where do we go from here? 

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It explored where the project 
profession needs to be in the 

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next five years and how it needs
to evolve. 

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Let's hear from Professor Adam 
Bodison, Chief Executive of APM,

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and Lucian Dragon, Managing 
Director for Europe at PMI, 

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discussing the risks and 
opportunities facing 

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professional bodies. 
For me, bringing a professional 

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body, one of the things I'm 
often kind of asking myself is 

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what's the role of a 
professional body now compared 

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to what it was 20 years ago and 
what it might be in 20 years 

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time from now. 
And is it, will it be different 

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or will it be the same? 
It will obviously be different. 

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So we've got a future proof, the
professional body to be there to

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support the profession. 
And and one of the changes, I 

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think, again, kind of from a 
risk perspective is that 20 

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years ago professional bodies 
were all about somebody coming 

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and joining the professional 
bodies as students, then 

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becoming an associate member, 
then becoming a full member, 

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then becoming a fellow and so 
on. 

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And it was quite a vertical 
route through our membership 

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grades and we see this in every 
profession. 

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But that's changing. 
We see it in the wider world of 

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work outside of the profession. 
People now are quite happy to 

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join an organisation for a job 
and knowing at the outset I'm 

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gonna do this job for three 
years or five years and then I'm

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gonna go and do something 
different. 

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So there's this. 
And we see that as a horizontal 

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movement now, back and forward 
through the different levels of 

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membership and so on. 
There's a risk there, but 

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there's also an opportunity. 
So the risk is that you end up 

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potentially losing people and 
the edges of the profession 

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become even more fuzzy than they
are now because people come in 

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and out of them. 
But the opportunity is, I always

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say, if you've ever been in a 
profession, even for a short 

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time, it's a bit like the Hotel 
California you can check out, 

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but you can never leave. 
So I hope that these people that

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come through the profession take
that knowledge of the profession

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and tackle some of the 
misconceptions that exist about 

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what it is and what it isn't, 
and share that with the wider 

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workforce and particularly with 
leaders who who some of whom I 

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think have a fundamental 
misunderstanding about what 

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project management and project 
professional broadly actually 

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is. 
Well to add to that the the 

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point you just make around you 
know the the awareness basically

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missing right with the 
individuals. 

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I think I wanna go back to the 
whole topic about the the talent

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gap right. 
We we mentioned there's there's 

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massive amount of people that we
need to bring to the profession 

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to solve for the challenges that
are upon us. 

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And I think that is a role of an
association as well to make 

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people and organisation and 
decision makers aware of the 

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relevance of the profession and 
how they can create an 

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environment in in in which the 
the professionals can actually 

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strive. 
Right. 

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And we we start thinking a lot 
about you know how do we bring 

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new people to the profession 
which isn't known to crazy much 

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and which doesn't seem to be 
very attractive. 

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A lot of people see project 
management more as a. 

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You know it's all about 
processes and and spreadsheets 

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and risk management and it 
doesn't come across very 

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attractive to, you know, young 
generations, right. 

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So this is where we want to 
focus as as organisations like 

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APM and PMI to bring new people 
to the to the profession 

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showcase that working on 
projects actually impacts, you 

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know, large scale challenges, 
solves these challenges, impact 

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society. 
But how do we bring these young 

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people in and also think about 
other audience that not 

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necessarily are at our forefront
now, people that want to change 

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career, right, People that have 
been kind of doing project 

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management in an accidental 
manner. 

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How do we make them aware that 
this is actually really a 

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profession that they can really 
get good? 

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That and kind of grow in in that
in that field. 

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How do we help people who had 
took a break right back to the 

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work space. 
How do we help them to reenter 

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the workspace and and one 
particular demographic group 

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maybe that I would like to 
highlight here are our women. 

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Quite frankly we we, I mean I'm 
actually very pleased to see 

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that many you know women in the 
audience here today. 

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But I still think globally 
that's what we see when we ask 

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our our global community. 
We do see a massive gap still in

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the gender representation in the
profession. 2 third of global 

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project management roles today 
are done by mail which isn't a 

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problem right. 
But I think where, where we kind

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of want to kind of push a little
bit. 

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More for acceptance and 
diversity really is around 

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bringing women to the to the 
workforce and we also found in 

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that survey that we did with the
global community that women seem

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to be a little bit stronger 
naturally in the soft skill side

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of things. 
So what you refer to as the 

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human side like things we need 
to focus on when technology 

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takes over the process pieces 
maybe women seem to have what we

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found a bit of an advantage 
there naturally. 

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And another interesting factor 
maybe to share is when we 

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surveyed the people that are in 
project management, male and 

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female, we found out that the 
gender gap actually gets much 

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smaller when when we talked 
about, you know, who has a 

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leadership role in project. 
Management for men, that was 

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like 2023% of these people in 
projects are in a leadership 

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role and for women that's 20%. 
So that's really a bit of a 

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smaller gap there, which is kind
of indicating a little bit that 

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there is an advantage for 
bringing women to the profession

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because they progress a little 
faster into leadership roles and

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therefore are a very good match 
to the profession. 

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We also found in that survey, if
I can share that in addition, 

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that women have a natural 
tendency to more easily open up 

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to newer technologies. 
Maybe the adoption of AI and all

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of that is something that would 
drive a little bit differently 

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and they are usually also more 
open to new ways of working. 

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Seems to be something we found 
out on a global. 

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Survey that we did. 
So yeah, kind of going back to 

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what the role here is for us, it
really is to identify that 

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massive gap that there is and 
come up with ideas of how we 

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bring new people to a profession
which needs to be known more, 

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quite frankly. 
That concludes our WRU of the 

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Change Changes Conference. 
Next year's conference will be 

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00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:29,830
returning to the Midlands on the
5th and 6th of June 2024. 

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00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:36,500
To register your interest in the
event, visit apm.org.uk/APM Dash

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00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:41,820
Conference slash 2024. 
APM runs more than 200 events 

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00:15:41,830 --> 00:15:44,580
every year, ranging from 
webinars and award ceremonies to

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00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:47,990
day long conferences. 
You can find out more at APM 

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00:15:49,330 --> 00:15:51,660
Events. 
That's It from us for this 

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00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:53,560
episode. 
If you enjoyed it, don't forget 

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00:15:53,570 --> 00:15:55,540
to subscribe or leave us a 
review. 

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Thanks for listening.