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Welcome to the IPM podcast. 
APM is the childhood body for 

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the project profession. 
My name is Emma DeVito and I'm 

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the editor of project apm's 
quarterly journal and your host.

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And this podcast, I'm speaking 
with caramel McConnell MBE 

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apm's. 
Opening keynote speaker, edits 

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change changes conference, this 
tomb. 

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She founded UK charity Magic. 
First more on that later is a 

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tech, entrepreneur co-mentor and
best-selling author of the book 

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change activists to make big 
things happen, fast, published 

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by Pearson, just to give you a 
little bit of background on 

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caramel, she works with 
corporate Leaders with values to

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support people and Planet. 
She has worked at senior levels 

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and BT, UBS and 20th Century 
Fox, ran a successful Tech 

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leadership development firm, 
based in London, starting with a

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role as an IT project manager 
and BT. 

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While working as Senior Tech 
manager and UBS caramel found 

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out about the problem of 
children. 

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Arriving at school too, hungry 
to learn. 

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She began delivering breakfast 
to a small group of schools, and

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seeing the big difference. 
It made to children who 

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concentrated better and behaved 
better. 

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Caramel remortgage, her home to 
take a sabbatical leaving her 

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City role to set up a new 
National charity. 

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Magic breakfast, this is now 
raised over 15 million pounds 

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for school food, deliveries and 
provides a nutritious breakfast 

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to and school-age children every
day after 20 years as founder. 

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And CEO caramel step back from 
Magic breakfast in 2020, to 

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refocus on supporting great 
Business Leaders. 

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She was awarded an MBE for her 
services to school food and the 

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New Year's honours list 2016. 
Welcome caramel. 

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Why don't you tell us how you 
got into project management and 

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how it has served you throughout
your career? 

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I left school when I was 15 and 
I went into a career in 

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insurance and my first job was 
to train as a marine cargo 

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claims adjuster. 
And they said, the most 

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important thing is that you 
finish this project and I said, 

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what's a project? 
And so from age 15 I was kind of

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kind of told you. 
No? 

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Okay, well, you have to plan the
stages and you have to make sure

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that was very good. 
And my biggest experience with 

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project management though was a 
BT because it became something 

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that I got a bit obsessed about 
because there were so many 

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things floating around. 
So many big strategic 

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initiatives, and I was a very 
Junior, it person and was trying

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to figure out how does this big 
organization work. 

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And I thought, what I'm going to
catch on to is someone who makes

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things happen that I I can see. 
So I ended up in a technology 

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team with this fantastic boss, 
Peter Bamford and I had been a 

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sort of social activist on the 
quiet. 

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I've been involved in 
anti-nuclear, work, anti-racism,

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work, and then got involved with
this lovely Guy, Peter Bamford. 

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And he said, look, you're a 
community organizer. 

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There's this project that's 
coming along it's called boat or

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something. 
Anyway, it turned out to be the 

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beginning of the internet and I 
was really lucky to be on one of

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the very first teams and BT 
working on on broadband. 

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And he said, well, you're bright
and Community organizing. 

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He said this probably means that
we'll have less faxes. 

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And that would be good, wouldn't
it? 

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That was, that was the original 
High vision for the program for 

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the internet. 
And, but there was a lovely, 

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lovely chap. 
Tim berners-lee, who I believe 

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had a good career, who was 
advising it? 

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And it was a, it was originally 
a military system to try and 

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create, you know, end-to-end 
data, that was. 

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So I got very, very interested 
in data and very interested in 

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project management. 
And I was like, okay, tell me 

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exactly. 
When we will know that we have 

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done this. 
It's like, well, when you and I 

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can communicate using our 
computers without the need for a

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telephone, that was one of our, 
and we worked on also. 

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I mean, it was such fun because 
I ended up loving loving, loving

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it because it was in the same 
way as activism, it was 

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absolutely about the learning 
and how quickly we could absorb 

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the learning into the next stage
of development, and could we all

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learn As much as we could that 
we could share with each other. 

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So, I did a master's in 
Broadband, protocols into endesa

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Logistics. 
My name is this in the 1990s 

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year, 1995 I6, but I was at BT 
for a note, with the earliest 

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internet stuff that I was doing 
was 1993, that was really early.

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And so which so we figured we're
figuring out essentially into 

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and protocols. 
So that was kind of how to open 

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kind of you know, BT copper 
analog, you know, fttp go to the

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cabinet going. 
To the, you know, it was all 

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about very very limited amount 
of data on copper. 

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So this idea that you're going 
to put enormous amount of data 

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meant. 
You know what, we're gonna have 

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to completely change our 
infrastructure. 

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We're going to need a new data 
Logistics approach. 

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We're going to need to change 
the whole way. 

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We do business, we're going to 
need a mobile operator because 

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that's going to get really big. 
If we can do, can we can we do 

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mobile? 
Is that going to work? 

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Hmm. 
What it was? 

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We call it 02 or something. 
Yeah. 

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Okay, let's do that. 
And I got an A and it was really

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exciting and I He's very lucky 
and BT were a very good employer

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in that they took me from being 
a secretary making tea for for 

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directors to being would you 
like to join in? 

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Okay how would a community 
organizer that was trying to do 

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a protest need to do this and 
you know so it was it was very 

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exciting and I learned a huge 
amount about project management 

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particularly about the need to 
not go off piste. 

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What do you mean by that? 
Well just because without new 

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things all the time and we'd 
have to sort of hold ourselves 

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to we said we were just going to
do this we're just kind of 

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figure out whether this bit of 
data goes from here to here 

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reliably and we're Not going to 
add on to it mobile and we're 

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not going to do it in India and 
we're not going to do it when oh

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no, no, no, no, because all of 
us kept saying, ah, that's 

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great. 
And what if we did this and I 

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was like, no, no, no. 
We have to be really, really, 

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really completely fixed on 
getting this bit to work, 

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because if that bit works and we
can go on to the next bit and 

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that was, I think very, very 
from the activism, which is 

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like, you know, you have to 
secure the winds, you have to 

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get an article in the Press, you
have to get a bit of, you know, 

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a sponsor who will talk and You 
know, all the and also the 

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active is a taught me to not be 
scared, you know? 

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So when I was on my Master's, I 
I really felt that the success 

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of the programs that I was 
working on and versus success of

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other people's or failure of 
other people's was really due 

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to, I thought, at the time, the 
personality and the sort of 

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capacity that people had to 
build close quality 

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relationships and build trust, 
and I did one of my Master's 

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project. 
X was what are the, what's the 

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commercial value of values? 
You know, can you put a value in

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the marketplace of someone 
building trust? 

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And and anyway, this is before 
CSR and there's a so I had no 

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idea and lovely guy called in 
violence was the chair. 

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And I just sent him a fax 
because we still had faxes 

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saying, what do you think the 
commercial value is to be T of 

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us having values? 
Because all these values on the 

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wall or customer-centric could 
log Brave and all this kind 

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Don't have, that is how we work 
but might be and white, you 

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know? 
And it came back and it was 

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really interesting about well if
organizations can do things with

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trust, then they're going to 
have all sorts of benefits, like

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keeping the best people, and 
customer loyalty. 

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And a way of moving on in the 
world because you've got good 

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people with you and you're 
respected because you are 

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trusted and I made Central part 
of everything that I did on the 

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project management side that we 
will do what we say. 

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We're going to do, we're going 
to do what we say we're going to

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do. 
So we're not going to add 10 

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things. 
For the project, we're going to 

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deliver the project time cost 
quality. 

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We're going to do it as we've 
promised to, and we're going to 

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keep our promises to ourselves. 
To succeed in a world of 

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increasing uncertainty and 
complexity. 

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We must change the way we work. 
We're excited to open the doors 

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to our brand-new a p.m. 
conference taking place in the 

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eights of June 20 23 at the Vox 
Birmingham, join us as we 

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explore how the role of the 
project, profession must adapt 

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to navigate change. 
So we can contribute to a 

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cleaner safer, more prosperous, 
and inclusive Society across two

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streams. 
You'll learn the tools and 

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skills needed to address the 
Strategic cultural and 

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operational by Is to drive 
positive change, addressing the 

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shift from enabling change to 
driving change. 

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Because when project succeed 
Society benefits, we can't wait 

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to see you there. 
Visit a p.m. dot org dot U, k-- 

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/ events to book your place 
today. 

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Project management has been my 
savior. 

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I swear to God because the 
ability to say write what does 

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success look like, you know, the
beginning the middle and the end

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and I'd also I was invented, 
this thing called pre mortems in

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DT as eyes too late when we're 
bloody kicked out, isn't it as 

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total losers? 
Why don't we sit here and kick 

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ourselves about to see what we, 
what we're planning to get 

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wrong, really? 
And it was the best thing 

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because it allowed all the egos 
to come down a level and say, 

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well, Don't think we're going to
get the second stage of funding 

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for it, because was that them? 
Well, the guy's about to get 

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sacked and he's our only 
Champion own right, okay? 

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Hmm. 
That'll probably do it, that 

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will probably kill us here and 
in any anything that I'm doing 

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now. 
I try and do a pre-mortem. 

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Anything at all, you know, and 
given that I'm fighting, a great

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habit of personal laziness 
procrastination, inability to 

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focus honest-to-god honest, to 
God, I'm telling you, I'm 

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telling you, I can only do 
things when I'm absolutely 

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moved. 
Do them, okay? 

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See you have to be really 
motivated and bought into it and

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you want to do it because he 
genuinely interested in it. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
And for most people, I think 

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it's the same and we're 
motivated and bought into having

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a roof over our heads, kids 
having some, you know, some food

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on the table. 
So we're pretty motivated to 

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stay at the place where will we 
will be paid to have the life 

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that we want and that's a big 
enough motivation. 

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But beyond that, if you think 
you've got that, I think it's 

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really important to start with 
the heart. 

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No and I have been kind of the 
way that I've worked on projects

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and the sixth biggest success. 
I've had on Project has been 

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where it's been that you've got 
people excited about it. 

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Well they feel like wow that 
would be really good really good

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but the project management side.
I think from BT and the activism

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the combination of activism and 
project management I think is 

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this change activists idea which
is, you know, we do have to 

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bring for the next iteration of 
capitalism for the next 

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iteration. 
None of our Lives. 

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We have the opportunity to do 
things that excite us and move 

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us and if you don't know what 
that is, then try stuff. 

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You know and if you're somewhere
that leaves you absolutely numb 

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with boredom then just check out
why you've chosen that and 

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think. 
Okay. 

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Is that what I really, really 
want? 

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If you want to be numb with 
boredom, you know for many years

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and just get paid, but be numb 
with boredom for through the 

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working day, then fair enough, 
that's everyone has their 

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choice, right? 
But I'm I think that 

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particularly project managers 
are the great doers of 

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capitalism and the great doers 
of organizations and the and the

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people who bring change, you've 
got the ability to get people 

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excited about a bigger outcome 
and especially doing something 

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more than just profit. 
You know. 

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That's, that's the big 
motivator, I think. 

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Because, yes, we can hit the 
prophet. 

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Yes, we can do the technical 
stuff, but can you do it in a 

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way that gets people to really 
unleash their potential, that 

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gives people a chance to find 
out who they are. 

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That gives them a sense. 
The purpose of the organization 

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that you can have really good 
meaty conversations about what's

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00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,500
good and bad in the world 
together as a way of making the 

226
00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:23,500
project succeed. 
A talking about project success,

227
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:28,300
what are the characteristics 
that you've noticed of project? 

228
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:31,900
That becomes the success? 
What do you need to do? 

229
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,700
Well, I guess, I mean, you know,
kind of initiation planning 

230
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:39,200
execution and closure, right? 
The four stages of project 

231
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,100
management each day. 
Age, I think you have to ask the

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00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,700
big why, you know, kind of why 
we're doing it. 

233
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:54,700
And, and do that in terms of, 
not only a sense of yes, it will

234
00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:58,600
improve things, it will give us 
Returns on Equity will improve 

235
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,200
our reliability, all the 
technical stuff. 

236
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:04,700
But also is it, is it something 
that we care about at at 

237
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,200
initiation site? 
Particularly, because while 

238
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,000
you're sitting there and what 
about the earlier? 

239
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,300
You've got to be able to say to 
people Okay, we're going to do 

240
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:13,700
this project. 
It's going to be quite a big 

241
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:16,500
deal to do this project and this
is why if there's a big enough, 

242
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:20,800
what it was, it was it nature. 
I said, who said that, if 

243
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,600
there's a big enough, why you 
can get through any amount of 

244
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,800
how? 
So, if there's not a big enough,

245
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:25,800
why? 
I remember being on a big 

246
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,800
project management, it 
feasibility, study a BT, which 

247
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:32,200
right? 
It's a really big. 

248
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,500
While is part of our program 
management approach. 

249
00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:37,200
We've got sign off on it, we've 
got budget turned out to be 

250
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,900
moving 12 chairs and a table 
from one room to the other. 

251
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:43,000
Could we just do that? 
Can we just do that? 

252
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,400
No, no. 
It's part of the system. 

253
00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:46,600
You've got to make sure that 
they're signed off, the plugs 

254
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:47,900
going to be there, the chairs 
and there. 

255
00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:50,800
It's going to be signed off, and
it was like, the big enough why 

256
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,800
get through in about how? 
Mmm, but, you know what about 

257
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,600
giving everybody, the ability to
communicate with the to each 

258
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,300
other without needing a phone 
connecting computers. 

259
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:05,600
Be able to send each other 
information on a computer 

260
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,400
instantly rather than through a 
letter or a fax. 

261
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,000
Is that worth jumping up, don't 
you? 

262
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,900
Yes, it is. 
It's quite, that's quite I think

263
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,300
this whole thing about at the 
initial stage, know that, that 

264
00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:19,800
Inception stage, you know, you 
have to check out all the 

265
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,100
technical stuff, but you also 
have to ask the big, why? 

266
00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:27,000
And it's not a bad idea, to sort
of kind of do a pre-mortem. 

267
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:30,600
Are we excited about this is? 
Is there a clear purpose? 

268
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,100
Does what's the Strategic 
Direction on that? 

269
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:33,600
Does it fit with everything else
that's going on? 

270
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,800
And what kind of what were the 
plan look like? 

271
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,000
So every stage in at the initial
initiation stage, while you're 

272
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,100
doing the planning. 
What? 

273
00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:42,300
Okay? 
We're going to do it. 

274
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:44,900
Let's do the plan. 
Is it is what's the big? 

275
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,200
Why are we excited about it? 
Why we're excited about it? 

276
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,500
What's the Strategic Direction? 
What's the purpose? 

277
00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:53,600
How do we buy into the purpose? 
How do people feel about the 

278
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,700
purpose? 
And then, let's get to the plan 

279
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,600
and the same on the execution 
and the same on the closure. 

280
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,200
If you've got a kind of flywheel
going, where you're sort of 

281
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,400
really investigating, you know, 
the biggest possible definition 

282
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,700
of success as well. 
You know, it's like you keep you

283
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:14,800
dare yourself like days. 
Self to have the conversations 

284
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,800
with the sponsor like, okay, 
you've been given a lovely 

285
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,900
project feasibility brief, could
you go away and find out whether

286
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:26,100
we should be in, you know, 
should we be based in Dubai or 

287
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:29,000
shall we build that over there 
or shall we do this electrical 

288
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,500
whatever? 
Okay. 

289
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:34,600
You know, have you got does 
that? 

290
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,000
Is that something that excites 
you and moves you? 

291
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:40,200
Because I mean, Steve Jobs said,
you've got to have that passion 

292
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:43,200
to keep you motivated. 
Dated through the dull times, 

293
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,900
you know, if it's dulled to 
begin with is going to get 

294
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,500
considerably duller by next 
Thursday, you know? 

295
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,700
So, you know, and again, unless 
you, if you choosing to go down 

296
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:55,400
the dull career route, that's 
fine. 

297
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,000
Everyone's got a choice of dull 
or exciting career Roots, but 

298
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,700
going back to that, that sort of
the project management side is 

299
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,900
the project success is so much 
more likely to be achieved if 

300
00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:13,800
you've built in Shannon and 
purpose as well as planning. 

301
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,300
I see that you Mentor CEOs 
today. 

302
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,600
DT furnace out that levels are 
kind of c-suite level that they 

303
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,900
understand what project 
management is. 

304
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,100
Well I definitely think there's 
a shift in the last few years. 

305
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:33,600
I mean, before I was running the
charity and I was working, I was

306
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,600
kind of working in Investment 
Banking doing big big scale, 

307
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,800
technology change. 
I set up a set up a consultancy 

308
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,900
called holistic management, 
which was Trying to sort of say,

309
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:50,000
you have to make sure that 
you've got the sense of people 

310
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,600
and the planet and everything 
you do. 

311
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,500
It has to be we have to set up 
this slightly more 3D, slightly 

312
00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:00,100
more holistic definition because
look, look at how many projects 

313
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:03,200
are failing just because of 
one's crashing through the, you 

314
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,700
know, kind of data. 
But it's no one cares or it's no

315
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:10,599
one's talking to each other or 
half the team of left or half 

316
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,200
the team of burned out. 
And I just like, I want to do 

317
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,000
this based on the combination. 
Nation of activism and the great

318
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,300
training. 
I got a BT and so I set up this 

319
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:24,500
company and was having a great 
old time doing, you know, 

320
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:28,400
large-scale change in the city 
and the big thing was no, I had 

321
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,300
as a project manager there, I 
had no access to the most senior

322
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,300
people in the bank. 
I was a definitely a 

323
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:40,100
middle-level, the big change. 
I think now is and I'll tell you

324
00:17:40,108 --> 00:17:42,600
about the change from Investment
Banking and Technology to 

325
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,700
running a kids charity feeding 
hungry kids. 

326
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,600
Is that the big change is now? 
I think that CEOs, recognize 

327
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,200
that if you want to get 
something done, you've got to 

328
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,500
have a strategic project 
management office. 

329
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,600
You've got to share the 
information, the boardroom has 

330
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,900
got to have a better connection 
to its project managers in order

331
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,600
for the things that they that 
the organization wants to happen

332
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,700
actually happen. 
You know, if you've got another 

333
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:08,100
letter, if you've got another 
layer of managers, all you're 

334
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:11,500
doing is slowing things down. 
So used to have the board you 

335
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:15,300
know and then used to have the 
you know the deputy The board 

336
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,500
managing director is some stuff,
and then you'd have the project 

337
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:20,900
managers and the in the time 
that it used to take to commute 

338
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,500
from the board meeting to the 
next people to the next meeting.

339
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,600
You've lost bloody time and now 
it's, you know, in a fast 

340
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,300
transparent Global Market. 
You know, the only USP is trust 

341
00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:33,900
and the board has to talk to the
project management office. 

342
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:36,200
Has the board has to talk to the
project managers to get things 

343
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,900
done and it has to be in real 
time, you know? 

344
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:42,500
And if it's being held up by 
something like, okay, atrocious 

345
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:47,400
market conditions, or Something 
was going on fine, talk about it

346
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:48,600
and sort it out and make it 
happen. 

347
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,400
I think there is a, I think 
there is a big shift now, but 

348
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,100
project management is seen as a 
strategic resource that seen as 

349
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:57,400
something that is, you know, 
Mission critical to success in 

350
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,300
businesses, in a way that it 
wasn't 20 years ago that and 

351
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:02,600
that's exciting because it needs
to happen. 

352
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,800
Tell me about magic breakfast 
because we don't have a lot of 

353
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,300
time left and I really want to 
speak sex. 

354
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:11,200
I know how important that was to
you. 

355
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,500
Yeah, well what when I was 
working in the city, I was PBS 

356
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:23,400
and because I've been thinking 
the chance to write a little few

357
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,300
little thought pieces about the 
combination of activism and 

358
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:30,200
technology and what it was going
to mean, you know, particularly 

359
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,000
at the kind of post, Y2K 
post.com bubble, sort of stage 

360
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:40,100
and I thought I'm going to do a 
little bit more writing and I 

361
00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:43,500
got the chance from Pearson to 
put a book together called 

362
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:45,200
change activists. 
And when I I was doing the 

363
00:19:45,208 --> 00:19:49,400
research for that. 
And very happy in my, in my job,

364
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,400
in the city, doing these big 
change programs, I went out to 

365
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,000
speak to a group of nurses and a
group of head teachers. 

366
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,300
And my question was, are we in 
the city helping you to create a

367
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:02,300
fairer as well as a richer 
society? 

368
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,700
And I was involved in all sort 
of, you know, philanthropy thing

369
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,000
that you to go out and paint 
shirts and you go off and do 

370
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,700
charity days, everything. 
But I thought the main thing was

371
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,900
to kind of try and keep building
in people and Planet into every 

372
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:17,300
part of the project, you know, 
that was my CSR. 

373
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:20,700
Lily, but I'll go off and have a
chat and so these head teachers 

374
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,800
and ask that question about are 
we building a fairer as well as 

375
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,200
a richer Society? 
Just said, well, we all have to 

376
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,400
bring in food every single day 
of the week in order to be able 

377
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,200
to teach because so many kids 
are coming in hungry. 

378
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,000
They do. 
They're just, they're just the 

379
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,800
most important lessons are 
taught in the morning and 

380
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,500
they're not able to concentrate.
So we bring in bananas digestive

381
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:42,600
biscuits and would you know, 
kids are putting their hands up 

382
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,700
at 9:00 so mr. 
Got tummy ache because they're 

383
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:47,100
not had anything since lunch the
day before. 

384
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,100
And I was like, hmm tell me 
this. 

385
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:52,200
Why aren't the parents feeding 
their kids? 

386
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:54,100
Why what? 
You know like breakfast is not 

387
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:55,600
expensive. 
Why aren't the parents giving 

388
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,700
their kids some food before they
go to school? 

389
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:00,600
And they just looked at me and 
they looked at each other and 

390
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,100
said, if to understand Kamala 
parents are hungry as well, most

391
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:06,200
of them are working. 
They're working long hours that 

392
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,500
got multiple jobs, their bills 
have gone up. 

393
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,300
They have very, very little 
money. 

394
00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:12,400
They can't not pay their rent. 
They can't not put the 

395
00:21:12,408 --> 00:21:15,500
electricity money in, so they 
just reduce the food and they 

396
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:17,300
lose meals and selves, and the 
kids. 

397
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:19,500
Relying on school for their 
food. 

398
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:23,300
And I had this horrible moment. 
Honestly, I'm aware, I was kind 

399
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:26,200
of I'd grown up in Northern 
Ireland, and dagenham. 

400
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,600
And my mum used to get kids in 
after-school and feed them 

401
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,400
sometimes. 
And I just thought I had no idea

402
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,300
that, you know, to bus rides 
down the road from my office. 

403
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:36,100
There were kids going to school 
hungry. 

404
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:38,300
So I started dropping, I said I 
don't know anything. 

405
00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,900
I'm a technology person. 
I know no knowledge up but I can

406
00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:44,500
do my shopping over there and 
I'll drop some food over to your

407
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:45,700
five schools on Saturday 
morning. 

408
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:47,200
So I just went Saturday mornings
book. 

409
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:48,900
Bagels. 
The cereals dropped him into the

410
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:52,100
schools within a week. 
I had 25 schools, asking me all 

411
00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:55,400
your the lady dropping breakfast
around being geeky. 

412
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,500
I said, look, I'm a technology 
project manager. 

413
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:01,300
Can we do some measuring of the 
benefits and they said, okay. 

414
00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:03,400
And they said, well let's 
measure the amount of fights in 

415
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,100
the first plague. 
Run playground. 

416
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,300
Okay first fights. 
Okay and I said, attendance and 

417
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,100
punctuality, can we do that 
within two weeks? 

418
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:15,200
They had said they said kids but
are out looking for food in the 

419
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,400
morning are here at school. 
They're here on I'm we can give 

420
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,800
them a toasted Bagel glass of 
milk and they are settled and 

421
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,900
ready to learn. 
And I just thought God Almighty 

422
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,100
the cost of a breakfast which is
nothing. 

423
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,100
These kids getting a morning of 
study, sorry, fast, fast 

424
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:35,100
forward, went home, had a chat 
with with, with my partner, 

425
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:38,300
Catherine, and we ended up 
remortgaging, and I thought I'm 

426
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,400
going to give myself a year off 
change work in the city, and I'm

427
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,900
just going to bully the local 
authorities and the the skull 

428
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:47,200
people and make them understand 
that these kids. 

429
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:49,200
Get no breakfast at home. 
They've got to have a breakfast 

430
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,500
at school and then I'll go back 
to work and it didn't quite pan 

431
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:57,000
out like that within, you know, 
we grew and you know this 

432
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,600
morning as kids coming back from
their Easter holidays, magic 

433
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,400
breakfast, the great team there 
is reaching 200, 220 thousand 

434
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,500
kids every morning in 1,000 
schools, Family action, which is

435
00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:11,100
another organization that we 
work with is also delivering to 

436
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:14,100
thousands of children, and but 
there is a big gap. 

437
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:17,200
I mean, so many kids now, are 
living in food, poverty. 

438
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:22,600
With the cost of living crisis. 
If we can just make sure every 

439
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,400
child has a breakfast and a 
lunch and something to eat 

440
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,400
during the school holidays, then
we, as a society, I think we'll 

441
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,700
have done something, that's 
basic and decent but yeah, so it

442
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:36,800
was a big shift and I didn't 
expect that either unexpected 

443
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,800
accidental career which has been
somewhat saved by project 

444
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,300
management because at least I 
could say right? 

445
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:46,000
No child too hungry to learn, 
that's what we're going to do. 

446
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,200
We're going to make sure we're 
going to deliver. 

447
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,800
So lovely deals with And you 
know, during the lockdown and 

448
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,500
missing delivered two million 
breakfast, when the kids are at 

449
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,800
home, got Quaker, Oats magic 
breakfast story on there, we've 

450
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,700
had so many wonderful 
supporters. 

451
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,800
Heinz little kind of, you know, 
magic breakfast, story on the 

452
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,400
side of the no added sugar 
beans. 

453
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,300
I just, you know, you just want 
in the same way as I hope on 

454
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:11,300
every project, one of the big 
outcomes is how do unleash the 

455
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:13,000
potential of everyone in our 
team. 

456
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,700
How do we give everyone a great?
It's giving that child, the 

457
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:19,000
chance to learn now is that was 
magic breakfast and I stepped 

458
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,700
away. 20 years. 
I had a plan, 2018. 

459
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:25,900
I submitted my two-year 
resignation with a plan to 

460
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:28,500
leave. 
And I left in April 2020, which 

461
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:32,300
was not again the best timing, 
but the team there are 

462
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,200
fantastic. 
And if anyone wants to learn 

463
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:40,100
more www, magic breakfast.com. 
But I like his set, you have 

464
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:45,400
optimism and not skepticism 
about business, being part of 

465
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,200
that positive, societal change. 
And that that's A really nice 

466
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,200
perspective to still have after 
Decades of working in the city, 

467
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,100
you're absolutely right about 
that. 

468
00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:02,700
And I think the big project the 
big project is how we put, how 

469
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:06,100
we make the transition from this
kind of capitalism to the kind 

470
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:09,500
of capitalism that is genuinely 
going to solve the climate 

471
00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:13,500
climate crisis and the social 
and racial issues that are in 

472
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:17,000
front of us and we can do it. 
You know, we've I really feel 

473
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,400
that we've come through. 
Just look at how we got rid of. 

474
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,200
Big tobacco. 
I know it bounced back in a 

475
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,100
million ways. 
I mean, right now, if we were 

476
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:27,300
able to, for example, help the 
food industry to stop marketing 

477
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:28,800
junk. 
Food, in the same way, we could 

478
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,500
save the NHS 5 billion over the 
next five years. 

479
00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:35,800
Transition, transition and 
project management is the great 

480
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:41,100
fantastic unlock for those kinds
of big changes, which is why I'm

481
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,600
probably quite glad that I 
learned the skills. 

482
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,900
I will be proud to be a project 
manager to the day, I die. 

483
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,000
One thing I'd like to ask is 
about being a leader of a 

484
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:57,300
project team or a leader. 
In general, what things should 

485
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:01,700
you do to tap into that? 
Feeling of passion? 

486
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,900
It's so so overused but but 
motivation how do you how do you

487
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,500
get a team to feel motivated and
work together? 

488
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,800
I tried to write change 
activists to help people who 

489
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:22,400
have the desire to be leaders in
their own lives or at work or in

490
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,500
any other setting and change 
activist is someone who takes 

491
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:29,000
action in line with their values
even if it goes outside their 

492
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,900
comfort zone. 
So for a leader, it is about 

493
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,900
taking the action but is kind of
agreed on and to be the one 

494
00:26:35,908 --> 00:26:39,400
who's brave enough to say this 
is, this is a good thing to do, 

495
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,600
this is why we're going. 
To do it, have that sense of 

496
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,500
values and sense of purpose and 
to go outside your comfort zone 

497
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:50,100
as a leader to to make sure 
people are involved to make sure

498
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:52,800
that the people who have paid 
the least and have maybe got the

499
00:26:52,808 --> 00:26:55,800
best perspective or involved to 
make sure that you've put the 

500
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,800
taboos in. 
You know, if you're a great 

501
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,900
leader, you can take people with
you because you show that 

502
00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:07,200
personal courage that you're 
taking action that you believe 

503
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,300
in it and that you are willing 
to put yourself on the line. 

504
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,700
Follow you, when they, they see 
that you are a stand-up person, 

505
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,400
you know that Rosa Parks 
statement of you stand up for 

506
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,300
something or you'll fall for 
anything, you know, but you just

507
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:25,100
that people come with you and of
course. 

508
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:30,600
So if you align yourself with 
something that's a dud idea or 

509
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,200
something that hasn't got values
or something isn't going to 

510
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,500
bring people with you, fine, you
know, you kind of might be paid 

511
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:39,300
in some other way but you're not
going to have an easy time 

512
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:41,900
bringing with you. 
If you're there and you're 

513
00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:44,500
bringing people with you and 
you're doing it with with an 

514
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:47,200
open honest loving heart and 
saying, to people. 

515
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,900
This matters to me and it's 
going to make things better. 

516
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,200
And I'm going to take action, 
I'm going to put myself in the 

517
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,100
line. 
That's what leaders great 

518
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:55,800
leaders do, and they bring 
people with them. 

519
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:00,800
I could talk to you for another 
hour, at least everything and 

520
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,900
then it's been really nice to 
kind of meet you and I'll see 

521
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:08,700
you at the conference and thank 
you for your time. 

522
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,700
Absolute pleasure, lovely, 
talking to you. 

523
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:19,000
Thanks again to Carmel for 
joining us and to you for 

524
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,400
listening to the APM podcast. 
Don't forget to look out for 

525
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,700
more episodes or to rate and 
review as wherever you. 

526
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:28,000
Get your podcasts and to read a 
p.m. project journals. 

527
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,700
Big interview with caramel and 
the summer 2023 issue to welcome

528
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:35,000
you to get in touch with your 
comments feedback and 

529
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,100
suggestions by e-mailing us at a
p.m. podcast at think publishing

530
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:43,200
.co.uk. 
This podcast has been brought to

531
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,000
you by APM the childhood body 
for the project professional. 

532
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:49,200
Ian for more information. 
They p.m. visit a p.m. 

533
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,600
Dot org.uk.