1 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Welcome to the APM Podcast. I'm your host Emma DeVito. 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,360 I'm the editor of APM's Core 2 Journal project. 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,880 The question I'd like to put to our guest today is what's it 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,560 like to get a once in a generation critical 5 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,560 infrastructure programme off the ground? 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,440 What's it like to work on a major project in an area water 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,080 supply that is garnering so much public and media attention? 8 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,200 Here to give me the fly in the wall view is John McNeil, Head 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,840 of Programme Delivery at United Utilities, who's helping to lead 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,560 the £3 billion horse water aqueduct resilience programme in 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,800 Northwest England. Welcome, John. 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,440 Thanks for joining me. Morning, Emma. 13 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,080 Thanks for having me. Well, it's a pleasure. 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,840 Let's begin with the basics when you tell me a bit about the 15 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,800 project and its scope, and perhaps what's making it 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,040 particularly unique. Absolutely. 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,800 So the Horse Horse Water Aqueduct Resilience Programme or 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,400 HARP as we as we fondly know it as it's been a project that's 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,560 been running for about 7 years now and the project is all about 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,840 addressing a very immediate and real resilience need. 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,720 So the the horsewater reservoir as shown behind me on the on the 22 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,680 photograph was built just you're. 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,760 Not actually there. I'm not actually there. 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,360 No, I'm not on site today. I'd love to be in that lovely 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,080 weather. So the reservoir was built in 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,600 the early sort of 1900s. And what connects the reservoir 27 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,640 to the main conurbations of the northwest being sort of 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,240 Manchester, is the horsewater aqueduct. 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,640 And this aqueduct was built between 1930s and 1950s to allow 30 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,080 the passage of water to effectively sustain the 31 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,640 industrial growth around Manchester and the Manchester 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,200 area. So a really, really important 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,280 aqueduct, an asset. It runs for 110 kilometres or 34 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,680 about 80 miles across an absolute variety of of, of 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,640 terrain and different areas. It served us fantastically for 36 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:16,600 70 years. The engineering that went into 37 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,320 it is just brilliant and it's served as well, but it's now 38 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,600 beginning to get to the end of its asset life. 39 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,360 And so the project is all about looking at effectively replacing 40 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:31,600 the key, the key sections of that to sustain this this water 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,720 supply for many years to come. OK. 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Thanks John for that overview. And So what you have you been 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,160 involved right from the start, so from 7 years ago? 44 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,280 No, I haven't. So I joined the project about 3 45 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,000 years ago, just at a stage when the project was beginning to go 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,760 out into the procurement phase to look at suppliers and a 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,640 supply chain network to to deliver this. 48 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:57,320 OK. And what are your role and 49 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,800 response? What's your role and 50 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,280 responsibilities right now for the programme? 51 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,640 So my experience throughout my career started out with 52 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:08,480 engineering and I've moved into a variety of different roles in 53 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,760 my career. But the, the area I've, I spent 54 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,240 most of my career in his project delivery, project management, 55 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,520 programme management. So I was brought in three years 56 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,400 ago to effectively get the, the project ready, match ready, if 57 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,960 you like, for when this project moves into the construction 58 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,600 phase. So my role currently is the Head 59 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,680 of Programme Delivery for United Utilities and I'm also the named 60 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,840 representative under the commercial contracts we have 61 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,440 with the with the supply chain. Could you give me a bit more 62 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,040 about what work is actually involved, because I'm quite 63 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,800 interested in the history of this. 64 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,200 It is a kind of, you know, Britain, England is full of 65 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,800 infrastructure that has been was built in Victorian times or, you 66 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,800 know, a quite a long time ago. And certainly renewing critical 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,600 infrastructure like this is is going to only increase as the 68 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,440 decades go on. So like, I'm sure you've been 69 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,720 into the system. Like can you give us an idea of 70 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,840 what it's like and what work will actually be done to renew 71 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,399 it, if that's not too of an obvious question to ask? 72 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,560 Yeah, no, it's fine. So as I mentioned before, the 73 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,520 as, as the Northwest was growing and as Manchester was growing as 74 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:32,680 a city back in the early 1900's, the needs to supply water was, 75 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,080 was was huge for population and industrial growth. 76 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:42,240 So, so the lakes were an obvious place for storage and collection 77 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,800 of water. Then of course that water then 78 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,200 has to be transported down to to Manchester. 79 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,800 So the Horse Water Aqueduct was constructed between 1933 and 80 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,440 1955 between the two world wars where resources were scarce, 81 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,120 manpower was scarce. And it was constructed through a 82 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,400 range of through, through geography, through hills where 83 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,040 we where the team and the project were able to tunnel 84 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,280 through the hills and through sections of pipe work as well 85 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:12,120 where there's valleys. So what this ended up with was 86 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,840 a, an 80 mile aqueduct that's made-up of tunnels and pipe work 87 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:21,480 sections and, and and wells that effectively conveyed a huge 88 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,760 amount of water to allow the growth of Manchester. 89 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,760 And the absolute fantastic thing about the the the the aqueduct 90 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,560 when it was built is that the water runs by gravity. 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,080 So taking that amount of water from the north of our region 92 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,360 down to the South of the region without a single KJ of energy, 93 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,080 it's just a fantastic achievement, fantastic 94 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,440 engineering and it's served us really well. 95 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:51,640 But towards the kind of 20 tens, we as a company began to get 96 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,200 concerned about some aspects of its condition and we were able 97 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,800 to actually get an opportunity to isolate the the aqueduct and 98 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,280 go in and have a look at it. Now even doing that was a huge 99 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,760 task organisationally because if you can imagine the Northwest of 100 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,760 England as a human body, the kind of heart of that body is 101 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,840 the lakes where a lot of our water is stored. 102 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,960 But the, the horsewater aqueduct is like the main aorta. 103 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,760 So this is the main conduit that is distributing the water out to 104 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,960 to a lot of the northwest communities. 105 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,520 So to suddenly take that out of service to go in and have a look 106 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,600 at it and inspect it, it's kind of doing like open heart surgery 107 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,640 on, on a patient. So an awful lot of enabling 108 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,120 where it's had to be done to just allow us to go in and have 109 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,680 a look into this aqueduct. We've now done that two times, 110 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,960 once in 2013 and once in 2016. And we're able to go in and have 111 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,320 a look round and give it a bit of a poke and a prod. 112 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,760 And what, what we found in those asset inspections is that this 113 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:54,320 this asset is deteriorating, not imminently, but it definitely 114 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,640 needs some, some intervention in the next, in the next few years. 115 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:02,400 And that those inspections really are what drove the need 116 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,600 to do the replacement of the of the horse water aqueduct. 117 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,600 And that's effectively the the what gave rise to the project. 118 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,920 So what will you be doing exactly to to renew it and to 119 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,560 make it resilient and, you know, Fit for the Fit for use now and 120 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:24,000 for the coming decades? So of of the of the the 80 miles 121 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,960 of of of Horzaltrakodo that exists today, probably about 122 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,560 half of that is in tunnel sections. 123 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,840 So these are deep, effectively pipes or tunnels that have been 124 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,040 hewn through the rock of of the hills in the northwest of 125 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,960 England. Some of them are kind of 304 126 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,440 hundred metres deep. The diameter is about two to 127 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,640 three metres. So these are large kind of 128 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,640 tunnels and they're the sections that we're most concerned about. 129 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,600 So what we'll be doing on the HARP is effectively going in and 130 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,040 creating brand new tunnels to replace those tunnels that are 131 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,640 beginning to degrade. So effectively HARP is a huge 132 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,720 civil engineering tunnelling project. 133 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,600 Well, as we take on to replace those six separate tunnel 134 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,520 sections that make up about like I say half of that sort of 80 135 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,040 mile run. It's kind of awesome what people 136 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,760 achieved, you know, what the engineers achieved in the 137 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,640 1930's. The way you describe it, it just 138 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,720 must have been back breaking work and so dangerous at the 139 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,640 time. Do you feel that kind of sense 140 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,480 of history with a project like this? 141 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,039 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you look back at 142 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:36,320 some of the black and white images, it's like long before 143 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,520 PPE, long before modern construction practises. 144 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,799 It's just breathtaking. I mean, what what these guys did 145 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,720 effectively trying to create a tunnel through just solid rock, 146 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,480 effectively using dynamite, you know, drilling the little holes 147 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,280 into the rock, filling them with dynamite, lighting the fuse and 148 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,680 stepping back and letting this thing blow itself open. 149 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:00,880 And then slowly then creating this this aqueduct, this tunnel 150 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,160 by using fairly rudimentary sort of support systems and concrete 151 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,440 forming systems was absolutely incredible. 152 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:10,360 What they did back then and what they've achieved. 153 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,640 And as I said before, to be able to build all that to such a 154 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,240 level of accuracy that the water can flow completely by gravity 155 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,240 for that that distance is, is an incredible feat. 156 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,600 And the feeling around the project now is we're in a 157 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,040 fantastic position to to replicate what our forefathers 158 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,800 did, but but make it even better as well. 159 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:36,040 We want this new aqueduct to operate again under gravity, but 160 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,040 be completely, you know, suitable for carrying water and 161 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,880 also to last even longer if we can. 162 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,600 We're looking for this new tunnel suite of tunnels to last 163 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,880 over 120 years. So there's a real feel that this 164 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,960 is a project that will endure. It will be. 165 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,280 It'll certainly help live me, my children and possibly their 166 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:57,480 children and their children again. 167 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,400 So it's a multi generational asset that we're delivering 168 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,280 here. And the project does have that 169 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,400 kind of special feel about it, a real pleasure to be on on on a 170 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,920 project of such sort of scale and, and like I say, once in a 171 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,360 generation opportunity really. Is that that must motivate you 172 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,000 as a kind of project leader to that idea of legacy and working 173 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,440 on something that is so critical? 174 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,360 100 percent, 100%. Like I said before, we, we 175 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,920 deliver a lot of projects within United Utilities, but this one's 176 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,280 always kind of stood out as being a really special project. 177 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,040 And, and even working day-to-day with the project team, we talk a 178 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,720 lot about legacy. We talk a lot about projects 179 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,320 like this not come along very often. 180 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,440 And yes, there's a huge sense of like an obligation to do your 181 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,000 best on any, any project on any, on any scheme and in any role, 182 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,920 particularly on this, this one. It just feels that little bit 183 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,560 special. It's it's a feeling that sits 184 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:51,880 around the project, which is great. 185 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,280 The motor face is definitely, definitely there to deliver 186 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,520 something that that will endure and like I say, will last for 187 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,360 many, many generations. But I think the other aspect of 188 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,080 the project that really motivates me is what we can do 189 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,720 while we're delivering the project. 190 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,120 So we talk about legacy in terms of what we'll leave behind and 191 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,400 what we'll leave for many generations to enjoy. 192 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,000 But there's also an opportunity in the eight years that we're 193 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,320 constructing this project have a massive positive impact on 194 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,120 communities, on careers, on education. 195 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,160 So one of the aspects of HARP I'm really proud about is our 196 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,480 sort of commitments to social value, what we're looking to do 197 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,280 during the construction of the project as well. 198 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,280 What can you tell us a bit about that? 199 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,040 So I guess you'd be creating a number of jobs in the local area 200 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,920 and training people up. And is this also a platform for 201 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:47,360 training people up on this kind of infrastructure renewal so 202 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,160 that if, you know, if and when this happens again within the 203 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,000 UK, then we've got people here who can sort of be ready to give 204 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,320 their expertise? Yeah, 100%. 205 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,600 So, so we, when we went out to market, one of the things we're 206 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,760 really keen to do is engage with a supply chain that we're as, as 207 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,040 passionate about this aspect of the project as we were. 208 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,640 And, and social value is a really important thing to, to 209 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,480 unite utilities and it absolutely flows through into 210 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,440 the vision and values of of HARP as well. 211 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,400 So some of our ambitions on social value where we've looked 212 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,360 at small and medium enterprise spend, we're looking to commit 213 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,360 at least 25% of our SME spend in the local area with local 214 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,720 businesses and that can really make a difference on HARP. 215 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,960 At the peak, we're looking to have Circuit 1500 employees 216 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,240 across the various sites working on the project. 217 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,200 And again, the commitment to that is that we'll have at least 218 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,880 30% of that will be again from local communities and, and, and 219 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:51,040 their local areas. And one that I'm really keen to 220 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,560 have in there and really proud to have is 5% of the workforce 221 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:57,080 at any one time will be apprentices. 222 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,280 So that can be a kind of 60 apprentices a year that were 223 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,360 taken from local colleges, local schools, local communities, and 224 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,400 giving them hopefully a step into construction and that they 225 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,960 can use on harp and obviously then take tape with them into 226 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,600 the rest of their career. So that investment in 227 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,200 communities, skills, education, it's, it's a huge part of the 228 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,440 project and it's one that I'm really keen to kind of lead and 229 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,640 keep, keep the fire lit under the whole, the whole of the 230 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:23,960 eight years we're going to be building this. 231 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,160 How much is climate change mitigation part of some you know 232 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,640 the programme does it affect what you do? 233 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:39,720 Is what you know how, how is that that risk sort of thought 234 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,160 about and dealt with on on the programme? 235 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,560 Yeah. No, it definitely has featured 236 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:47,720 in our thinking and it factors into the programme in in 237 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,440 probably at least two or three ways. 238 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,600 So one of the things we've been really keen is during the 239 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:59,960 construction phase of of the project is to invoke a keen eye 240 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,480 on our impact on the environment. 241 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,720 So tunnelling is a big civil engineering endeavour. 242 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,560 He cannot get away from that requires big machines, you know, 243 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,320 shifting larger large amounts of material. 244 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,720 But that said, there are things you can do to to minimise the 245 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,800 impact of where that material goes. 246 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,000 So we've been really proactive in looking for local areas to 247 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,240 dispose on that one, to cut down the carbon footprints of 248 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,440 transporting the material to around the place, but also 249 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,000 putting it to beneficial use. So we've been able to speak to 250 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,160 local quarries or local land owners that might be able to use 251 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,720 the material. We've also got some pretty 252 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,600 stretching KPIs on energy use. So how some of the tunnel boring 253 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,680 machines themselves, which are huge power users, how they'll 254 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,640 actually be powered has also factored into our thinking. 255 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,000 And we've come up with some quite iterative ways of looking 256 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,600 at the least damaging or the least impacting ways for power 257 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,080 use. So definitely while the 258 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,960 project's been building, while project's been built, that's 259 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,880 been in front of our mind, but also longer term. 260 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:09,120 So, so water and water scarcity is, you know, a real issue, not 261 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,440 just in the UK, but across the world. 262 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,160 And when you're building an asset like heart that's going to 263 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,920 last for potentially 120 years or more, thinking about its 264 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,040 future use is just as important as think about it's the need for 265 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,000 it today. So what we've been able to do is 266 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,960 try and future proof as much as we can the assets. 267 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,440 So in terms of the size of the existing horsal Tricroduct, 268 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,160 it's, it's about 2 1/2, three metres, 3 1/2 metres in 269 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,200 diameter. And going forward, we're going 270 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,960 to make that bigger, not that that carrying capacity is needed 271 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,040 today, but it might well be in the future. 272 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,120 So again, the the trick there is obviously making sure we've got 273 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,920 enough flexibility to future proof the asset in case we 274 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,240 haven't needed to shift the water around in different ways 275 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,720 or shift different volumes, but not burdening today's customers 276 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,800 with that as a cost. And that's that kind of balance 277 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,320 we've been we've factored in, in the sort of strategic approach 278 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,120 on HARP. OK, thanks. 279 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:12,200 And the programme is working on the new delivery model which is 280 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,520 called the direct procurement for customers DPC model. 281 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,560 And I think this programme is a Pathfinder for that. 282 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,520 So can you tell us what that means exactly for people who 283 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,520 might not be, who who might not know? 284 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,880 So in the water industry, all water companies are have an 285 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,120 economic regulator called Off Watt off water very much there 286 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,960 to ensure that the water companies deliver in the most 287 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:43,680 efficient and effective way. And probably 5 or 6 years ago 288 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,000 off what looked into various different ways of delivering 289 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000 projects and they wanted to trial something that was a 290 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,400 little bit different and that's where DPC came from. 291 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,640 So DPC stands for direct procurement for customers and 292 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,520 what it invites water companies to do is effectively not only 293 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,000 engage organisations to design and build assets, but also to 294 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,119 design, build them, finance them, maintain them and in some 295 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,440 case operate them as well. And that's that's the sort of 296 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,280 procurement approach that that the half will be delivered. 297 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,160 Under what are the benefits that this model hopes to bring to the 298 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,800 delivery of the programme? The idea behind DPC is to, as I 299 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:31,040 said before, make projects more innovative and efficient. 300 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,120 And the way it intends to do that is look at different 301 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:37,920 sources of finance for projects. It's looking to attract 302 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,920 different different parties, different delivery partners that 303 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,000 might not normally have been attracted to the UK water 304 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,560 industry, which with them then brings innovation. 305 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,040 And that's certainly what we've seen on HARP in terms of the 306 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,640 interest across the supply chain. 307 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:53,960 We're now in a position where we've awarded the contracts to 308 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,360 what we call a cap or a competitively appointed 309 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,000 contractor. So that's the the special 310 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,160 purpose vehicle that will actually deliver the scheme. 311 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,640 And they are entities that certainly we in United Utilities 312 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,560 have have not used before. So it's definitely seeing some 313 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,680 fresh names in and around the sector. 314 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,600 I'd like to ask you about stakeholders and who the 315 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,160 stakeholders are that you deal with and United, am I correct? 316 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,840 United Utilities, does it own all of the infrastructure that 317 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,360 you're working on is that? It it does, yeah, it does. 318 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:28,120 So all of our assets are owned by United Utilities. 319 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,960 This will be the first asset that we've have ever delivered 320 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,040 whereby effectively it's owned by a another for a period of 321 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,240 time and that's a feature of the the DPC model. 322 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:44,360 So as I mentioned before, the, the, the, the DPC model allows 323 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,400 effectively a new entity called the CAP, a competitively 324 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,920 appointed provider to design, build, finance, operate and 325 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,920 maintain the asset. So once the construction of HARP 326 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,880 is complete after sort of eight years, they will actually own 327 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,800 the asset for another 25 years. And as effectively you, you and 328 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,920 its customer base pay off the the initial sort of financial 329 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,920 outlay and then that asset comes into our asset base fully. 330 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,800 Who are the most critical stakeholders that you're 331 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,000 engaging with and what challenges have you been able to 332 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,200 overcome and any advice you'd pass on to professionals working 333 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,760 in in, you know, in in a similar way or affected by similar 334 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,560 issues? Yeah, so it's a great question. 335 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,160 I mean the, the, the stakeholder reach on a, on a programme, the 336 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,720 size of HARP is, is issues as you'd imagine. 337 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,760 Key stakeholders are obviously our customers and we're doing 338 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,840 this for our customers. Two and a half million of our 339 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,720 seven million 7,000,000 customer base will benefit from this 340 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,880 project. So it it'll impact from a 341 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,320 beneficial point of view a huge proportion of our customers, but 342 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,640 quite a small number of our customers will actually be 343 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,080 impacted in the construction. But they're the ones that really 344 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,720 have in the front of our minds as a, as a key stakeholder. 345 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,200 Obviously, we have our industry regulator off Watts. 346 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,120 This is their first DPC out of the blocks. 347 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,120 They're hugely keen to see how it goes though. 348 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,680 So they have all eyes on the project and we work very closely 349 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,720 with those guys. We now have our supply chain, 350 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,200 our partners in place. So we have the cap, as we said 351 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,200 before, the competitively appointed provider. 352 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,520 And we've got another body called the ITA, an independent 353 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,240 technical adviser who also sits as part of the HARP supply 354 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:28,920 chain. So really key stakeholders 355 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,440 there. We have key stakeholders in the 356 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,800 local communities with MPs, local councillors, local 357 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,760 community leaders. So it's a, it's a vast array as 358 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,480 you can imagine. And it's a real effort to keep 359 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,000 all of the stakeholders at the right level of being informed, 360 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,800 engaged and communicated with, consulted with. 361 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,880 So it's a huge range. But one of the big challenges we 362 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,560 faced on HAARP was in the, in the kind of relatively early 363 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,920 phases of planning where we, we were really keen to go out and 364 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,880 speak to particularly the customers and the local 365 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,960 communities about the project, about the impacts it might have 366 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,480 about what the what the project will look and feel like. 367 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,560 And normally we'd go about that by take, you know, doing sort of 368 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,440 town hall sessions or consultation sessions face to 369 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,280 face. And that was the root and the 370 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,400 tactic we adopted on HAARP. But bearing in mind the huge 371 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,080 geographical spread, you know, the 80 miles kind of top to 372 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,360 bottom, that was a huge endeavour. 373 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,400 And that was all going really well. 374 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,800 But then COVID hit. So this was around 2020. 375 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,280 So that really sort of stymied our plans to to get out there 376 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,040 and speak to people face to face. 377 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:40,320 So for the first time, certainly in in United Utilities history, 378 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,600 we took that public consultation online. 379 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,840 It sounds old hat now because everything's done online, but 380 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,480 back then it was kind of quite a new to us. 381 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,720 And we held online drop in sessions, online surgeries, 382 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,880 online briefings, presentations, and we didn't know how it was 383 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,080 going to go right. But to be honest, it was 384 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,880 fantastic. It meant, perversely, we reached 385 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,000 far more people than we ever would have done doing it the old 386 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,280 fashioned way. And we listened. 387 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,840 I think one of the key lessons I've certainly picked up from On 388 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,400 Harp is listen, you know, listen more and speak less. 389 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,600 And we got an absolute wealth of feedback from the communities 390 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,080 about what they were worried about, what they wanted to see, 391 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,440 what they didn't want to see, how they thought it could be 392 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,600 delivered better in a less impactful way. 393 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,720 And because we did that early enough in the project, we were 394 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,720 able to take some of those gems and actually like incorporate 395 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,120 them into the scheme design, how we're going to deliver it, how 396 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,240 we're going to constrain the supply chain when they deliver 397 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,280 it. So that stakeholder engagement 398 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,480 with the customers wasn't just there to get buy into the 399 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,640 project, which is normally the step, the aim. 400 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,640 It was, it was that, but it was also to get steerage on the 401 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,920 project and allow that to to shape the project. 402 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,520 So a lot of effort was put into it around that time in ways that 403 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,080 we never imagined doing, but it was really, really successful. 404 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,720 And it's actually our largest public consultation we've ever 405 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,520 done for any project across United Utilities and it's really 406 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:10,200 even now bearing fruit. Could you explain to me exactly 407 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,520 where you are now on the programme and what you're 408 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,920 working on right now? Sure. 409 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,160 So, so we managed to close the procurement process at the back 410 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:25,360 end of last summer. That was a lengthy process, but 411 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,640 hugely rewarding to get to contract award or to call it 412 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,280 financial close in ADPC setting and that happened last August. 413 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,240 So a really great milestone for the project and, and such an 414 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,320 effort, a huge amount of effort from the project team that was 415 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,000 fantastic. So that was kind of seven or 416 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,680 eight months ago now. So we're now beginning to get 417 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,080 into what is an 8 year construction programme. 418 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,480 We're in year 1. So a lot of the folks in the 419 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,600 last sort of 6 to 8 months have been on mobilisation of the the 420 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,080 new supply chain, getting them set up, getting them inducted 421 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,240 into what we're trying to deliver, new systems, new 422 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,400 people. We've Co located in a sort of 423 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,280 new sort of programme office. So we're all sat together, which 424 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,920 has been an absolute, absolute coup in terms of sort of 425 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,080 promoting collaboration. How many people are based there 426 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,760 do you think? So we've probably got over 100 427 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,160 people, maybe 100 to 130 people Co located. 428 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,680 And when I, when we first moved into this, our office, which is 429 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,120 in kind of the city centre of Manchester, which got a nice 430 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,040 link to obviously this is the community largely that this 431 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,720 project will be, will be serving. 432 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,400 I'm sat there thinking, there's no way we're going to fill this 433 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,560 office. This is huge. 434 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,720 And within six months we've outgrown it beyond all belief. 435 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,240 So we're actually looking to open some other offices now and 436 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,600 some of the sort of depots to sort of accommodate the growing 437 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,560 team. But what, what that office has 438 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,600 allowed us though, is to bring the whole of the programme 439 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,120 together. So we're sat in there as the, as 440 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,040 the kind of appointee for the scheme, as United Utilities. 441 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,400 We've sat with the CAP who's an organisation called Cascade 442 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,760 Infrastructure, they have their main contractor, an organisation 443 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,520 called Strabag, Strabag UK and we've also got the independent 444 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,880 Technical Shorer who sat with us who's children in Townsend and 445 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,560 OTBE Engineering. So lots of different 446 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,920 organisations but all sat together for two or three days a 447 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,760 week. Yes, we meet and we have our 448 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,160 formal meetings and our update meetings, but the power of 449 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,400 sitting together are the corridor conversations, the kind 450 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,080 of, you know, informal interactions that you have that 451 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,160 just help really Foster and build those relationships. 452 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,120 So having that set up has been a real, a real, a real game 453 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,000 changer in my mind. It's really got the the 454 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,640 programme out of the blocks. Was that something that you that 455 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,560 United Utilities had always wanted to put in place for a 456 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,760 project like this? Because it is a new way of doing 457 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,880 things. So I'm wondering how what the 458 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,360 approach to managing a programme like this would be and how it's, 459 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,600 and now it's different to, to maybe previous programmes you've 460 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,120 worked on. So I mean, I'm just here hearing 461 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:12,520 collaboration, but I don't know what was kind of at the 462 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,480 forefront of people's minds to in their approach to running 463 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,160 this programme, the construction freight phase at least. 464 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,200 Yeah, it's a good question, to be honest. 465 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,400 We, we really wanted this as an organisation, but we didn't want 466 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,040 to force people into it. So the way we actually procured 467 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,640 heart was actually, we left it open. 468 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,760 We said to our prospective partners, if you would like to 469 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,720 work together and have a collaborative programme office, 470 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,200 we'll be in it with you. You know, let's do it. 471 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,360 But if you don't, you don't necessarily have to. 472 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,520 But if you do, please make space for us kind of thing. 473 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,520 And what was really pleasing is our preferred bidder and now our 474 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,000 successful CAP really wanted that too. 475 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,920 And so it was kind of a we, we dangled, I guess we fished for 476 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,360 it and, and, and we got what we're hoping for really. 477 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,400 But that's been a real sort of Energizer to, to bring people 478 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,400 together like you're saying. And things, some of the things 479 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,240 I've seen that really have helped that is it might seem a 480 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,200 little bit twee and I know most projects have this, but we spent 481 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,960 quite a lot of time in those early weeks and months 482 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,520 developing our common sort of project vision, project values, 483 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,320 which is the first kind of test of everyone working together, 484 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,400 right? Can you just come up with 485 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,440 something that you can all sort of centre around? 486 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,880 And, and we did do that and we have that now and it's public 487 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,280 and it's available and, and what we don't want it to be and it 488 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,200 isn't, it's something that just sits on the wall that nobody 489 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,080 ever looks at. People do talk about it. 490 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,680 So when we're in meetings and we're talking about issues and 491 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,280 we see behaviours that aren't quite right, we draw it back to 492 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,880 the project vision because that sets out exactly what this 493 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,440 project is trying to achieve. And I just don't think you would 494 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,160 have got that cohesion around that kind of central idiom if 495 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,800 you'd been sat in all over the world or in separate offices in 496 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,760 the UK. So I'm a big believer in that 497 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,080 sort of Co location aspect. I'm interviewing you for this 498 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,920 podcast because you wrote a really interesting feature for 499 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,800 the Summer 2026 issue project and there was some, there were 500 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,800 two things in the feature that you mentioned that I wanted to 501 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,480 pick up. The first was that you said your 502 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,120 instinct has always been to seek clarity, define the problem, 503 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:28,240 analyse the options, land on the optimal solution. 504 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,480 And the more senior people I speak to in project management, 505 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:39,320 the more clarity, simplicity and a kind of coherent vision seems 506 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,880 to matter a lot. Can make the difference between 507 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,760 a project that's OK and one that's highly successful, I bet. 508 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,360 So I'm keen to pin you down a bit more now I've got you here 509 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,560 for you before you go and jump, jump into that reservoir behind 510 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:53,920 you. Hi inside Lake. 511 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,560 Could you tell me a bit more about your clarity and how 512 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,920 important that is to you as a as a programme leader? 513 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,840 I guess when in my mind when you're dealing with a single. 514 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,560 So if you perhaps as an engineer, I remember in the 515 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,240 early parts of my career when you're dealing with A1 specific 516 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,280 pro problem, say it's or an issue, it's relatively closed, 517 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,120 it's relatively narrow. It's kind of 1 dimensional. 518 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,400 It's, it can be 1 dimensional, relatively simple and clear. 519 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,320 But on a project like HAARP has taught me and other projects 520 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,800 before that is project programmes at scale, that 521 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,080 certainty is, is elusive. It, it just isn't there. 522 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,560 It's, it's the old Vuka world that we live in. 523 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,760 The noise is louder, the issues and more numerous. 524 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,520 The agendas are wider, it's more diverse, So what was once A1 525 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,000 dimensional issue is now something that's far more 526 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,120 complex. There's technical aspects, 527 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,360 there's planning, there's finance, there's community, 528 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,680 there's risk, there's schedule, there's just a lot more going on 529 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,760 and it can be overwhelming. So from an engineering mindset 530 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,200 it can easily, it can easily be overwhelming for you. 531 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,480 But what I've kind of learnt is the same sort of principles can 532 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,400 be applied and, and do apply. And it sounds obvious, but it it 533 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,640 is just breaking it into those chunks that make it more 534 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,880 manageable. And yes, they interconnect. 535 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,560 So the technical chunk may interconnect with the planning 536 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,520 chunk, which interconnects with finance and the community and 537 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,560 they all have interdependencies. But if you can organise yourself 538 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,840 and your team in a way that addresses each chunk and just 539 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,360 make each area's life, I guess, as simple and as clear as 540 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,800 possible, that just allows people to crack on. 541 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,760 But the real magic is effectively bringing that 542 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,640 together and making sure that they stay connected. 543 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,040 Yes, you were doing your bit, but you also need to know how 544 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,600 your bit perhaps interacts with this bit over here and how that 545 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,080 then changes this bit over here. So it's really important I've 546 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520 been given that clarity at kind of chunk level, if you like, or 547 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,920 work stream level to bring people together. 548 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,160 Now I meet with my team once a week, every Friday morning to do 549 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,960 exactly that. What's happened this week? 550 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,160 What's happening in your world that might impact someone else's 551 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,320 world? And we regularly have team 552 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,920 scrums as well, again, just to make sure people can understand 553 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,920 their interconnectivity and people can almost have that read 554 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,200 across as to what's happening. So big projects are inherently 555 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,040 complex. Like I said, that clarity and 556 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,720 simplicity can be lost. But there is a way, I believe, 557 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,640 of bringing that kind of rigour to it that simplifies what 558 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,200 you're asking of each part of the team. 559 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,880 But if the magic, as it says, is making sure you keep them 560 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,640 connected so people don't sort of drift off into their own, 561 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,920 it's their own areas. That's interesting. 562 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,160 Also something I'm thinking about as you were telling me 563 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,120 that was you have people from different organisations working 564 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,400 closely together and each organisational team has their 565 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,800 own culture. So how do you go about in 566 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,760 skating the kind of over overarching culture for a 567 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,600 project like this? How do you establish principles? 568 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,920 Is it formal or is it just info? This is the way we do things and 569 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,560 you lead by example I think. I think that's really 570 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,000 interesting to get your kind of first hand expertise from that. 571 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,480 Yes, it's a great question. It's something we've spent a lot 572 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,040 of time on, like I said in the last six months on Harper as 573 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,480 we're mobilised because I was really big on making sure that 574 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,680 we can galvanised the new parties and the new 575 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,760 organisations as we move into project award around something 576 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,800 that unites us. But I think to suddenly say we 577 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,920 want you all to now adopt the harp culture and that's the only 578 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,760 culture you'll ever have. It's just like it's naive and 579 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,400 it's not going to work. So I think in minds, in my 580 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,080 mindset, the way we sort of pitched it to our various 581 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,160 partners is that you will all come with your own 582 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,200 organisational culture. Like United Utilities has one, 583 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,520 Strabike will have 1, Cascade will have one, turn in towns and 584 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,200 we'll have one. And we're not asking you to lose 585 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,480 that because you can't. It's just, you know, you'll 586 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,240 always have that kind of home organisational way of doing 587 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,880 things. But what we want is a layer on 588 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,000 top of that which is unique to HARP. 589 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,800 So let's figure out what it is that unites us on a programme of 590 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,960 this scale. What lights our fires? 591 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,480 What are we here to do? What can, what sort of 592 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,040 behaviours and values can we can we hang our hat on and you make 593 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,960 something that's unique to the programme that doesn't then 594 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,040 decry everybody else's home culture. 595 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,920 They'll always be there, right? But what is it that makes U.S. 596 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,600 special on that? That's what I was mentioned 597 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,760 before about just even the vision of values bit. 598 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,760 It just gives you that line of connectivity across and you can 599 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,320 then start to build relationships on and collaborate 600 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,840 around. So I don't think you can ever 601 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,360 completely wipe everybody's old world away. 602 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,400 Like the old men in black, you press the button and they've 603 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,360 also forgotten and they they get reborn into a new project 604 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,720 culture. I think you have to overlay 605 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,880 what's already there with something that's that's unique 606 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,720 and special for for what you're trying to achieve. 607 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,040 You must feel under a considerable amount of pressure, 608 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,360 not least because it's a Pathfinder programme, but also 609 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,200 the level of public and governmental scrutiny and water 610 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,880 projects at the moment. I mean, it's just in the 611 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,520 headlines and there's a lot of strong sentiment about what 612 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,960 needs to change in this country to clean up water and give us 613 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,800 what we need. Is that what bearing does that 614 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,159 have on the project as well? Yeah. 615 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:22,199 Look, yes, you're absolutely right. 616 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,480 The, the, the, the, the water companies and the water sectors 617 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,880 and the huge amount of scrutiny at the moment. 618 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,960 And that's felt within United Utilities as well. 619 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:37,440 United Tools is looking to invest over sort of £13 billion 620 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,199 over the next five years in as part of what we call the big 621 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,440 Northwest upgrade. And that effectively to do many 622 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,040 things. But a lot of that is around 623 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,760 cleaning up rivers and seas. And it's the biggest investment 624 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,639 in in the Northwest for over 100 years. 625 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,320 So there's an awful lot going on. 626 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,960 And how does that impact Harp? Well, hugely. 627 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,080 I mean all of that work that will be carried out will have an 628 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,160 impact on our customers bills. All of the work that will be 629 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,760 carried out on HARP will have an impact on our customers bills 630 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:14,440 and there's almost a moral duty on all of us to deliver HARP as 631 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,760 efficiently as possible to minimise that impact. 632 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,120 With the cost of living crisis and everything else going on, we 633 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,240 have a position of responsibility and influence to 634 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:26,640 make sure this project is delivered as efficiently as 635 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,000 possible to minimise what people are paying. 636 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,480 So I feel personally duty bound to kind of work in the best 637 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,160 interests of our customers every day. 638 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,760 And that's, that's something else a lot of the team feel as 639 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,920 well. So, so yeah, there's a lot of 640 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,880 scrutiny on the sector, but we can do something about that to 641 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,880 to sort of make that make that better and a more palatable sort 642 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:56,040 of thing we deliver. And does it then inform the kind 643 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,000 of accountability and transparency in a project like 644 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,080 this? You know, not it. 645 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,680 It's about just being open with what's going on and honest about 646 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,880 saying, not saying, not in any way saying that you wouldn't be. 647 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,840 But it's almost a counter what's happened in the past by the 648 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,640 water companies or whatever is it. 649 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,080 Is it really? Does that inform the culture of 650 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,840 the project as well? Yeah, it does. 651 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,160 There's, there's an awful lot of scrutiny on water companies more 652 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,200 generally like, like I said, so and the flip side of that is, is 653 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,160 to effectively, like I say, adopt A more transparent way of 654 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,840 working. So a great example of this 655 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,760 slightly outside the heart, but with United Utilities is that 656 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,480 every day now we publish our, our CSO, which is our, sorry, 657 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,560 our combined sewer overflow activations on a map, you can go 658 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,840 on it, you can find your nearest overflow. 659 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,160 You can see if it's activated or not. 660 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,960 It's completely out there in the public domain in the public 661 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,960 interest. And people can see when projects 662 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,600 are delivered, how it improves and impacts that situation. 663 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,240 And the similarity on HARP is, is the sense that the level of 664 00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:12,000 regulatory scrutiny and sharing of information with our 665 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,360 regulator is, is kind of off the scale. 666 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,800 One, because of the size of HARP and, and what's riding on it. 667 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,800 And secondarily because it is this this new delivery model of 668 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,320 what really key to see how it goes. 669 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,720 They want to take that learning forward. 670 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:27,560 So there's not a week or a kind of month that goes by that I'm 671 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,440 not asked or the team are not asked to go and present how 672 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,680 things are going, where the numbers are up to where the 673 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,560 programme up to how, how things are kind of transpiring. 674 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,280 And we have every quarter a very open, we call it a quarterly 675 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,000 liaison committee where we speak to offer about how all aspects 676 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,080 of the project are, are sort of developing. 677 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,800 So almost everything we do on HARP is, is shared pretty openly 678 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,280 with our sort of regulator and with the the broader 679 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,800 stakeholders as well. I'm going to go rewind back to 680 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,160 the second point, which I wanted to ask you about, which you 681 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,040 wrote about in the feature which really grabbed my attention was 682 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,680 that you wrote that your biggest personal shift has been going 683 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,480 from problem solver to systems steward. 684 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,560 And I really love that. And I wonder when you're working 685 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,160 on a hugely complex projects programme like this, that this, 686 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,640 this idea of systems steward is a really valuable one and one 687 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,640 that perhaps might only increase in the futures projects as 688 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,840 collaboration increases. And you know, we live in a, like 689 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,080 you say, a VUCA world, but can you tell me a bit more about, 690 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,480 about that sort of personal shift? 691 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,640 You know, what is the systems student? 692 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,640 How does that work for you on a project like this? 693 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,240 Yeah, Oh, sure, sure. So it's again, I guess it goes 694 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:46,520 back to the origins of my career being in engineering. 695 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,800 I've I've really pushed myself in my career. 696 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,280 And again, this would be something I'd, I'd advise others 697 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,320 to do who are, who are perhaps setting out in theirs is to, if 698 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,760 you possibly can take the opportunity to broaden yourself, 699 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,840 push yourself into different roles, different areas of 700 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,720 learning. So I've been an engineer, I've 701 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:08,600 also worked in design management, I've worked in 702 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,400 commercial management, I've worked in project and programme 703 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,000 management, and I've worked kind of in operational frontline and, 704 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,960 and maintenance. And I think having been 705 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,080 fortunate enough to move around in those different roles, the by 706 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,680 product of that is it's allowed me to kind of see the bigger 707 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,480 picture. And what I mean by that is, you 708 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,680 know, a decision made in an engineering world can have a 709 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,080 massive impact on the assets that someone then operates and 710 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,520 maintains for the rest of their life. 711 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,360 So that helped me to really start to understand this 712 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,880 system's thinking. You know, everything's 713 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,440 interlinked and, and unfortunately, the role, 714 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,960 sometimes you can only ever see the bit to your left and the bit 715 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,600 to your right. But to have the opportunity to 716 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,240 see that bigger picture is, is really important. 717 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:58,800 And I think working on hard has allowed me to apply that because 718 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,280 leading the team from AUU perspective, you know what? 719 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,280 I know that bigger picture and I know the history of the asset. 720 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,480 I know what it does. I know the criticality of it. 721 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,280 I can. So I know the commercial 722 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,480 construct construct. I can see how the DPC models 723 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,280 evolved over the years and it's landed. 724 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,200 I understand the parties, the duty holders, how it all fits 725 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,560 together. I understand the geography and 726 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,360 the communities that we're going to be impacting. 727 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,920 So from that kind of vantage point, I can really help bring 728 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,520 the project vision to life and to encourage the collaboration 729 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,600 that's needed to meet the meet the goal. 730 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,920 And you just can't lead in that way if you if you're purely 731 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,120 transactional. I think you need to kind of step 732 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,520 up and kind of exit or demonstrate a little bit of a 733 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,720 different project leadership style. 734 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,160 Sometimes it's directive, it has to be it's just it's kind of 735 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,680 just a go do. But more often that I feel I'm 736 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,600 moving some more of a coaching kind of integration type style, 737 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,080 you know, explaining the bigger picture, be it to off water or 738 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,840 to the supply chain or to the customers, because all of those 739 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,400 different stakeholders all have a very different lens on the 740 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,160 project. You're or I find myself in a 741 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,280 privileged position where I'm at the centre of that and I can see 742 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,840 the the join up really, and I love it. 743 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:21,200 I mean, it's great. Just to wrap up, are there any 744 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,280 lessons that you've learned about working on a programme 745 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,600 like this or any leadership lessons that you've learnt that 746 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,280 you would pass on? Yeah. 747 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,440 I mean, I think we've, we've maybe covered quite a few, but 748 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,480 there's probably sort of four or five that sort of having 749 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,560 reflected on, on half. I mean, number one problem being 750 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,520 the breadth of experience I've been able to have him in my 751 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,920 career has really put me in a good place to, to, to sort of 752 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,880 take this project on. So like I said before, if, if 753 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,520 people listen to this and have the opportunity to work on 754 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,120 different roles, different project, that's stretchy and 755 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,920 that's where that's where the growth is the personal growth. 756 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,440 So, so do do that and you know, have breadth in your experience 757 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,720 because, because when projects and opportunities come up in the 758 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:15,840 future, that will really bear fruit. 759 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,680 I think as we mentioned before, another key lesson is, is the 760 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,280 one about stakeholder and stakeholder engagement being 761 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,120 absolutely critical. Do it early. 762 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,960 Listen more than you speak and allow, allow what you hear to 763 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,080 influence the project. Don't just treat it as a tick, 764 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,680 tick box exercise that that that can really help. 765 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,360 I think the third one is that whole legacy piece, Like I said 766 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,200 it, IT projects are more than just like tunnels through hills 767 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:44,240 and, and you know, concrete tubes. 768 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,840 It's a huge legacy that will impact society for years to 769 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,720 come. And there's the here and now, 770 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,480 there's the social value. What can your project do to make 771 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,800 people's life better through careers, investment, education? 772 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,240 And if that's what they can do, then lead it, you know, step 773 00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:06,360 into that and drive it forward. Perhaps the next lesson is, is, 774 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,480 is just that importance about collaboration kind of is the way 775 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,840 I, I tend to lead naturally, but make room for it. 776 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,920 So like physically make room for it. 777 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,520 Sit together, work together, spend time together, talk and 778 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,000 really try and galvanise the team around you is another key 779 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,560 1. So yeah, it's, it's taught me 780 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,280 lots. There's not a day I don't learn, 781 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,400 which again, I think is another blessing, something it will 782 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,480 continue to stretch me. This programme of sure, but it's 783 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,040 been a real ride so far and I'm I'm looking forward to carrying 784 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,040 on and see where we get to the next few years. 785 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,520 John, thank you. When when is the project due to 786 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,200 complete? So the project's eight years end 787 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,200 to end, but we should start to receive the first tunnels, as I 788 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,320 mentioned for the six of them. So we'll get, we'll get them 789 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,880 kind of incrementally, but the first one will be brought into 790 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,400 service in 2031. So we've got a few years yet, a 791 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,880 lot of tunnelling ahead of us. And then sort of 2033 years will 792 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,280 be when we get the final tunnel and we'll have a brand new north 793 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,480 to South Horse water aqueduct and safely supplying water to 794 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,560 two and a half million people. And that'll be a huge 795 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,720 achievement, I'm sure. Brilliant, John. 796 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:22,200 That's a great way to end our podcast. 797 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,640 I just want to thank you again for your time. 798 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,160 It's been so interesting speaking to you, finding out 799 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,600 about what it takes to get a programme like this off the 800 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,120 ground and what it's like to work on a once in a generation 801 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,080 project. And if people would like to read 802 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,640 more about it, then watch out for the Summer 2026 issue 803 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,960 project where we you give us a detailed account of some of the 804 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,000 background and what's going on there as well. 805 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,680 So thank you John again for your time. 806 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,040 It's been a pleasure talking to you. 807 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,880 Also a pleasure. Thanks Emma for the opportunity.