1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,200 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,160 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,440 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,680 this podcast. I'm speaking to Doctor Miranda 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,720 Lowe, Director of Scientific Growth, Engagement and 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,560 Innovation at the Institute of Occupational Medicine. 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,560 For those of you who aren't familiar with it, the Institute 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,800 of Occupational Medicine is dedicated to enhancing health in 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,800 workplaces in the broader environment. 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Comprising engineers, hygienists, analysts, 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,480 scientists, and ventilation experts, its work spans the 12 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:45,880 entire life cycle of hazards and airborne exposures, offering 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,680 comprehensive insights from identification to management, 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,840 testing, and legal support. Notable achievements include 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,960 ground breaking research on coal miner lung disease, developing a 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,960 handheld dust sampler and assessing the health impact of 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,800 the Montserrat volcano. Miranda herself develops the 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,360 Institute's research capabilities and hazardous 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,520 substances exposure assessment, health and well-being at work, 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,520 and Air pollution in the built Environment's impact on human 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,800 exposure and health. While not formally qualified in 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,800 project management, Miranda is a self confessed big fan of 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,320 project management and takes a formal approach to managing all 24 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,320 in house projects. Listen on to find out how 25 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,520 project management can bring value to new sectors and how 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,440 project management can be introduced to an organisation 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:37,200 not formally familiar with it. Welcome, Miranda. 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,760 Thanks for joining us on the APM. 29 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,600 Podcast, thank you for having me. 30 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,920 Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about 31 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:45,800 the IOM? Sure. 32 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,680 So the IOM stands for the Institute of Occupational 33 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,720 Medicine and we were started by the National Coal Board in order 34 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,400 to study the health effects of coal mining on workers. 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,880 Obviously we don't have the National Coal Board anymore and 36 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,560 we have, we became a charity. The purpose of the charity was 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,720 to do research as well as education and promoting 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,080 information to enable the protection of workers health in 39 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,600 the UK. Before you tell us a bit about 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,760 your current role, do you want to tell me about your career 41 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,320 journey? How you ended up at the IOM? 42 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,240 My backgrounds as an exposure scientist, so that's somebody 43 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,440 who studies and characterises environmental hazards that 44 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,200 people are exposed to and how they come into contact with 45 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,200 these hazards. And the purpose of that is to 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,600 better understand the health impacts they may have, but also 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,960 to look at how we can potentially assess their risks 48 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,560 as well as mitigation measures or interventions. 49 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:44,960 Originally, my focus is primarily on contaminants in the 50 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,440 air, both in the workplace and other environments such as 51 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,880 indoor air. And before the IOM, after 52 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,680 Graduate School, I spent some time in various organisations. 53 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,840 I worked in Finland, and then I worked in Arizona as an 54 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,320 assistant professor. And then I came to the IOM after 55 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,360 that. And that was just over 10 years 56 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,120 ago. So I started here as a senior 57 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,040 scientist. Tell me a bit about your current 58 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,480 role and your the research you're working on at the moment. 59 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,720 So I'm the Director of Scientific Growth, Engagement 60 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,040 and Innovation. It is a leadership position. 61 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,200 So I'm one of the directors and I'm responsible specifically for 62 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,160 overseeing our sharing of our insights and influence on 63 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,840 occupational environmental health issues to our 64 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,440 stakeholders and also for planning the growth of our 65 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,720 organisation. I think it would be helpful for 66 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,160 people to understand a bit more about occupational medicine as 67 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,240 discipline and exactly what kind of thing it encompasses, because 68 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,440 I think this might be directly relevant to many of our 69 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,840 listeners who work across construction and architecture 70 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,760 and all kinds of different environments. 71 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,920 So it'd be good to understand a bit better what that covers. 72 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,800 Occupational medicine is actually more traditionally 73 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,640 focused on the impacts of health from work and sometimes there 74 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,560 are different terms that are used around here. 75 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,120 Occupational health is another one. 76 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,560 Medicine, I guess if you think about it, is a bit more on the 77 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,440 the medical side of things, looking at the clinical side. 78 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,400 And so this would be looking at afflictions that might result 79 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,320 from work, such as injuries or repetitive stress injuries. 80 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,720 There are things like in certain industries, you might want to be 81 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,720 aware of things like allergies to certain substances, but also 82 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,600 things like burnout and more psychosocial risks are part of 83 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,640 that. You know, mental illness is one 84 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,640 of the top causes of ill health at work these days. 85 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,440 So obviously we're moving away from being a primarily 86 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,760 industrial society where things like respiratory disease and and 87 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,160 diseases that arise from chemical explosions and things 88 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,200 like that, while they still exist, they are not as prevalent 89 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,120 probably as they have been historically. 90 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,120 So obviously we don't have as much coal mining anymore. 91 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:00,160 So things like pneumoconiosis from coal dust is less of an 92 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,720 issue now than it used to be, but there are then other things 93 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,080 and a lot of them tend to be musculoskeletal disorders as 94 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,320 well as mental health related illnesses. 95 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,720 What specifically within mental health is the Institute 96 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,160 exploring, researching or providing insights on at the 97 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,320 moment? So we have in the past and we do 98 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,320 today also look at things like work related stress. 99 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,520 So we've done various things like evidence reviews around 100 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,400 that area. We've also looked at the impact 101 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,240 of of things like technology on health, things like mobile 102 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,560 technology. We've done some projects around 103 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,080 those. Again, it's one of the key 104 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:39,600 stressors. And, and when we think about 105 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,480 workplace stressors that, you know, I use the term stressor is 106 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,320 a term that's used sometimes in environmental health to refer to 107 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,960 things like physical stressors, biological, chemical as well. 108 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,200 So psychosocial. So those are all the different 109 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,480 things that potentially a worker may be exposed to at their 110 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,920 workplace. And obviously the, the 111 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,360 importance of them depends on the type of workplace that 112 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,280 they're at. But I think we can probably 113 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:08,480 agree that at most workplaces, whether it is manufacturing, 114 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,400 whether it's construction, whether it is an office job, 115 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:15,520 some element of managing stress is important for that. 116 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,920 Is it all the obvious stuff around stress and avoiding 117 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,280 burnout that you give advice to individuals to follow, or do you 118 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,840 also consult with organisations and companies themselves about 119 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:33,040 how to handle this better? So in our organisation we do 120 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,680 research but we also do service provision. 121 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,120 Our service provision has been focused more on assessing things 122 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,680 like chemical hazards at work or things like noise, vibration 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,960 etcetera. The stress related well-being 124 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,840 work that we've done has primarily been more in the 125 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:52,080 research or evidence review sort of building the evidence base 126 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,120 for that. One of the things we recognise 127 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,760 is there is an importance of looking more holistically at 128 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,000 worker health, so it isn't just a matter of managing the 129 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,200 physical risks set at work, but also looking across at how work 130 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,560 is organised and how that might also influence worker 131 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,400 well-being. So that is something that we're 132 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,520 looking to build more not just in our research side, but also 133 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,280 our services side, Which. Other workplace safety projects 134 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,720 are you particularly interested in at the moment or concerned 135 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,640 with working on? We have quite a wide range of 136 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,640 different types of services we provide and and some of it in 137 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,440 what we call our science Insights and Influence group, 138 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,440 which does a lot of the research work, is looking at providing 139 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,920 the evidence base to help policy and decision makers make more 140 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,320 informed actions to protect worker and public health. 141 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,040 So as an example, we have done work with the likes of what used 142 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,280 to be called PhD Public Health England, which is now the UK 143 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,640 Health Security Agency. We've done work with Defra. 144 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,200 We'd also do work obviously with private clients, which I can't 145 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,080 really share as much about. So a lot of those work. 146 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,840 So services work then tends to be more around, although some of 147 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,840 our research work also does that, is to assess levels of 148 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,200 exposures that workers might face at work and then help them 149 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,600 manage those risks. We also do quite a lot of work 150 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,520 with hospitals. So in particular we do work 151 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,040 around helping them ensure that they have healthy air quality, 152 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,600 which is very important, as you can imagine, hospitals. 153 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,520 And this is through adequate monitoring of the air and 154 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,160 ventilation systems and helping them ensure that they're meeting 155 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,520 the guidelines that they need to. 156 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,120 As I mentioned, we do a lot of work with different government 157 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,840 and European agencies. So we review evidence and 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,000 develop or update guidance. And this can be for various 159 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,880 hazards such as as an example, we've done some work around 160 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,880 cytotoxic, medical, medicinal products, nanomaterials, 161 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,360 asbestos, various other types of hazards like that. 162 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,760 Something that's quite for me that I've worked on quite a lot 163 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,160 over the last few years is around looking at sensing 164 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,680 technologies and applying those in occupational settings. 165 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:05,400 So as I mentioned before, my background is primarily in air 166 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,920 quality and so there has been quite a lot of interest and 167 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,280 implementation of what we call lower cost air quality sensors, 168 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,360 which when I started work at IOMI think this was only 169 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,480 starting to be something that's come on the market. 170 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,560 It really changed how we we measure air quality. 171 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:29,400 You know, before it was primarily these government 172 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,200 regulatory air stations around air monitoring stations. 173 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,760 And therefore we didn't have a lot of data. 174 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,880 It was only in certain areas. But then these lower cost 175 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,840 sensors came on the market and they were things that the 176 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,240 average consumer could buy. So you could buy one, I could 177 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,080 buy one online and then measure their quality in our our 178 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,400 backyard or in our homes. And so that is now something 179 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,520 actually that I see the government's local councils even 180 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,440 implementing to supplement what they have for regulatory 181 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,520 purposes. So what one of the things that 182 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,080 interests me is translating that type of technology also to 183 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,400 looking at managing occupational exposures. 184 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:15,760 If I were to ask you what are the biggest threats to workers 185 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,560 health in the UK at the moment, what would be up there? 186 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,320 So we looked at what the HSC statistics, it does say 187 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,440 musculoskeletal disorders as well as mental health are the 188 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,080 top 2 workplace illnesses that are prevalent in the UK. 189 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,120 Respiratory 1 diseases or illnesses are kind of still an 190 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,600 issue, but they're much smaller compared to those two. 191 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,360 And and cancer due to workplace exposures is another one, but 192 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,520 that's again relatively small and and that tends to be a bit 193 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,800 more because cancer is a long latency disease that's something 194 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,960 that doesn't show up till many years after. 195 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,880 I know you're clearly motivated by public service and you have 196 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,560 an interest in health, so I wondered what you hoped to 197 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:04,680 achieve in your work at the institute. 198 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,280 I don't know if we really underestimate the impact of work 199 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,640 on our health because it has an impact not just on our health 200 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,040 today while we're working. And I think, you know, there is 201 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,440 a fair amount of awareness of workplace health issues, 202 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,240 especially around stress and things like that. 203 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,600 But so our health today impacts our health tomorrow, meaning 204 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,640 when we retire, how healthy we are is set by the times before 205 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,280 we retire. So I think it's important to 206 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:41,640 lead a healthy working life in the hope that we can also be 207 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,680 healthy when we're no longer working. 208 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,320 And so for me in the institute, I hope that we can help both 209 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,960 decision makers, policy makers in the government, but also 210 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:56,720 clients and organisations take an approach in their work that 211 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,360 that incorporates employee health and well-being. 212 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,880 And part of that is in a lot of what we do is around the 213 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,960 environment of work, whether that be the physical 214 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:14,760 infrastructure, the processes that people do at work that may 215 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,840 lead to them being exposed to hazards, but also the workplace 216 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,240 culture and practises that support their mental health and 217 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,120 well-being as well. When you think about the best 218 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,120 workplaces from your point of view, so the ones that want to 219 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,920 have a healthy workforce, what do you see that they do? 220 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,160 I mean, I think to be honest, it doesn't really matter the type 221 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,040 of workplace. I think leadership is really 222 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,640 important in setting the culture around having a healthy 223 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,920 workplace, healthy and happy workplace. 224 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,000 It is leadership and culture that is the primary thing 225 00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:02,280 because to me then your practises stem from that and 226 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,760 that that is a very important thing. 227 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,200 It's not the only thing, but I think it is a very important 228 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,320 thing. So as a leader as well, living 229 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,000 by example. Living by example, setting up 230 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,480 the organisation such that there are the support mechanisms 231 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,960 there. Line managers are very important 232 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,320 also because they are, you know, the, the, your senior leadership 233 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,160 is not on the ground necessarily, but it is there, 234 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,120 you know, having the, the right structure and the right 235 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,720 training. And for your line managers to be 236 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:43,960 able to recognise when there are issues in the workplace or, you 237 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,120 know, to, to have a culture such that people feel comfortable 238 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,760 speaking to their line managers about issues they may have. 239 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,080 And a lot of things, things that happen outside of work impact 240 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,080 our health is work as well. So it's not a, a fine, it's not 241 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,200 a, a clear line between work and outside your life outside of 242 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,760 work. So I think that at IOM, for 243 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,880 example, I think we're very much cognizant that any issues 244 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,280 someone might have at work isn't necessarily only impacted at 245 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,080 work, or it may come from something that's happened 246 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,000 outside of working their personal lives. 247 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,080 And we want to create that safe space that they feel that they 248 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,120 can speak to to people, others at work about this, especially 249 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,160 their line managers, and that, you know, appropriate actions 250 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,400 can be taken or adjustments can be made as needed. 251 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,720 So I think that is an important aspect. 252 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,440 We can't solve everything, but I think we can try to create a 253 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,800 workplace where you can, as much as possible, enable your workers 254 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,720 to do their best. We're APM, the only chartered 255 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,280 membership organisation for the project profession. 256 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,960 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 257 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,720 support you need to make an impact, delivering better 258 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,360 projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive 259 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,680 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 260 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,240 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 261 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,600 apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, 262 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:18,760 society benefits. I want to turn our conversation 263 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,040 towards project management. I wonder how you first came 264 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,200 across project management and what has been your experience of 265 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,800 the project profession in your career so far? 266 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,040 So I've never actually had any formal training and project 267 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,920 management, but I have worked on projects most of my professional 268 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,680 life. And I think to some extent all 269 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,240 projects follow this. You know, they follow a plan, 270 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,360 you've got a Gantt chart with your timelines and your 271 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,600 deliverables and milestones and things like that. 272 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,080 And that is, you know, supposed to keep you on track. 273 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,600 So that was my experience, I would say before coming to the 274 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,520 IOM and it was still my experience probably through a 275 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,200 good part of my career here. We obviously did project 276 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,080 management, but I wasn't really very knowledgeable about the 277 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,760 methodologies until actually I transitioned into my current 278 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,720 position a couple of years ago. So I went on a couple leadership 279 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,080 courses and that was brought up and then I learned more about 280 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,080 waterfall and agile project management methods. 281 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,000 So broadly speaking, I think that's how I came into it. 282 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,760 Then now that I understand that there are kind of methodologies 283 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,160 around that and different approaches to it, I, you know, I 284 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,560 see the value of it. With the in house projects you 285 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,840 have, do you take a formal project management approach 286 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,400 towards? Them, yes, the scientific 287 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,480 projects we have, we do track them and obviously we we have 288 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,320 deliverables that are due at certain points. 289 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,360 And often times that's also driven by our clients or funding 290 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,880 sources because we will have to report to them on a regular 291 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,480 basis and therefore they will want to know things about any 292 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,640 risks if we're behind. Are there any things that are 293 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,680 flagged up for being delays or or issues with not being able to 294 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,720 meet certain project outputs, that kind of thing? 295 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,359 We have an internal management process in terms of tracking the 296 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,640 projects and reviewing them, etcetera. 297 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,640 We're now actually doing a little bit of a review as part 298 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,160 of our continuous improvement to see if we can, you know, make 299 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,960 the process a bit more efficient. 300 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,200 And we've had a couple people go on do like project management 301 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,200 apprenticeships. So that's been quite helpful 302 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,120 where I've taken it on and my team. 303 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:38,400 So I have a new team now which is the growth and innovation 304 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,400 team. And what I find actually one of 305 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,320 the things we maybe suffered from a little bit before is so 306 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,320 outside of those more formal projects where we we delivered 307 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,080 to clients or funders, there are things like internal projects 308 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,840 and they didn't really go anywhere sometimes. 309 00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:59,640 And I think really why that was, we didn't have it set up like a 310 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,360 project, right? So there wasn't, there is no 311 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,120 mechanism for accountability necessarily, which I think 312 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,440 project management gives you. So it's clearly defining what 313 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,960 the project is at the beginning, then being able to, you know, 314 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,240 break it down into your tasks, your deliverables, your 315 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:20,160 milestones and and setting those timelines and assigning clear 316 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,040 roles and responsibilities and then making sure you use that 317 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,240 plan and check in on those, the progress of those things 318 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,480 regularly. That is something that I do a 319 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,720 lot more now with my team and I think that has really helped 320 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,720 move certain things forward, which I think in the past, you 321 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,480 know, has just been going on, but not really ever ending. 322 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,480 And so now, you know, I just use that approach and part and a big 323 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:47,760 part of that's the communication. 324 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,440 Well, I've also realised it's not enough just to set up, you 325 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:51,880 know, your plans and all that stuff. 326 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,360 You have to have a way of tracking it. 327 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:58,440 So we now use a planner kind of this Kanban board style planner 328 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,880 that can go over at our team meetings. 329 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:06,520 And when I have 1:00 to 1 so team members and I am much more 330 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,800 clear about what needs to be then delivered the next time we 331 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,520 meet or what I expect and things like that. 332 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,800 I mean, it's not perfect, but this really helps a lot. 333 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,560 And I just think having the framework and the tools that you 334 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,920 use for, for project management is really helpful with that, for 335 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,920 that, but also being able to adapt those according to the 336 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,800 situation rather than the one-size-fits-all methodology, I 337 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,200 think is quite important. It's interesting just as 338 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,840 anecdotally, you know, so somebody that works for me, we 339 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,760 were going over, he's setting a plan for, for some work. 340 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,440 And I was following a bit of a, a template, I presume from his 341 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,280 project management training. And I kind of was like, the 342 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,000 template's really good because it gives, these are things you 343 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,920 must consider. But at the same time, I think 344 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,880 there's an importance to not just follow the template and 345 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,960 fill it in, but to really think about the, you know, the 346 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,760 connectivity between the different parts and to be clear 347 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,640 about what the overarching goals are before you really set them. 348 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,560 You know specific aims, objectives and then the 349 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,680 supporting actions. And it's actually, it's exactly 350 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,160 what we do in proposals, especially scientific proposals 351 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,120 for large projects. The funny thing for me is I've 352 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:32,600 never thought about that as a project management thing, but I 353 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,960 spent a lot of my time writing proposals for scientific 354 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,680 projects. So we do it anyway. 355 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,800 It's just we don't do it in the way, I guess the field of 356 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,000 project management necessarily. We probably use those tools, but 357 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,480 we don't necessarily say we're following this methodology. 358 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,600 If there were people listening to this who were in an 359 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,880 organisation where project management isn't at the core of 360 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:58,400 the organisation, or people have come across it somewhere else 361 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,600 and perhaps they brought it in, have you got any advice about 362 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,520 how to start to bring project management into an organisation? 363 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,160 The biggest thing for us is being disciplined about applying 364 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,640 it. To me, a lot of it is discipline 365 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:20,840 and the managers making sure they hold the teams accountable 366 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,760 to the targets that are set in that plan, but also being 367 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,440 supportive of them. And also making sure that the 368 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:33,080 teams adequately communicate to you as a manager and that you 369 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,000 will do the same to them. And, and clarity and, and being 370 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,040 clear, knowing what you need from them and being able to 371 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,080 communicate that to them is really important. 372 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,920 So in terms of bringing it in, I think to some extent it is 373 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,800 probably intuitive, I would think, but it's hard for me to 374 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,440 say. But I think it is worthwhile 375 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,640 probably learning a little bit more about the different 376 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,320 methodologies and what is suitable for your type of 377 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,560 organisation. And for example, that different 378 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,000 types of projects may need different approaches. 379 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,040 So I don't think actually a course is a bad idea. 380 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,760 So once you've had some experience of project 381 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,520 management, are you then kind of converted because of the 382 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,720 benefits it brings, do you think? 383 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,920 Yes, I want more of that. I think so. 384 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,200 I mean, I think that the trick for me coming from a small 385 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,960 organisation is you have to look at your organisation, whether it 386 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,560 is that you have people who are project managers and that's 387 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,040 their job only, or do you train up some of your technical staff 388 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,000 to have those skills. So for us, I think we wouldn't 389 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,480 have the resource for having, you know, lots of project 390 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,040 managers, but there's probably a balance between having kind of a 391 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,680 smaller number of people who can help do the project management, 392 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,680 but then also to upskill some of our technical staff who work on 393 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,600 projects to be able to follow that as well. 394 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,120 Was there anything you wanted to add about project management? 395 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,200 For someone who's not, I never thought of myself as a 396 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,400 particularly well organised person, but but I actually think 397 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,480 I'm pretty decent now. And it's because you have to be. 398 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,840 And I think it's really about organisation, time management 399 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,040 and prioritisation. And I think for me project 400 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,880 management has helped me. It's not the only thing, but it 401 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,960 is one of those things that's helped me be able to do that. 402 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,680 And I think it is really crucial, especially for somebody 403 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,720 who is a leader, to be able to have those tools or at least 404 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,000 understand the concepts of them to help manage the team and to 405 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,320 because my job is to make sure people get things done and, and 406 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,960 I think these tools do help with that. 407 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,520 Miranda, it's been really lovely speaking to you. 408 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:49,800 Thank you so much. Thanks again to Miranda for 409 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,680 joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. 410 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,840 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and 411 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,680 review us. Wherever you get your podcasts, 412 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,640 we'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback, 413 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,880 and suggestions by emailing us at 414 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:08,200 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 415 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,200 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 416 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,840 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.