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Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the chartered body for 

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the project profession. 
This special episode is guest 

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hosted by Emma Ruth. 
Arnaz Pemberton, chair of apm's.

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Pmo specific interest group and 
director of consulting services 

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at Wellington. 
She'll be in conversation with 

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Kathryn. 
Lum of open. 

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Reach the fiber and network 
delivery. 

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Pmo at openreach was the 
recipient of apm's 2022. 

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Pmo of the Year award. 
The judges praised, the pmo for 

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working on relationships and on 
accessible ways to bring 

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benefits and also for generating
Joy, through the work itself. 

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Listen onto here, Catherine 
talked about how and why the pmo

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was established, the 
transformation Journey at went 

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on and also why pmo's have 
something of an image problem 

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and how to break the bias? 
Welcome to the latest AP on 

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podcast. 
I'm very happy to have with me 

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Kathryn. 
Lum from openreach the 2022. 

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Pmo of the year and program of 
the Year Awards winner. 

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Thank you for being here and 
congratulations, Catherine. 

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Thank you, Emma. 
So let's start with the easy 

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question. 
First, tell us a little bit 

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about you and your journey. 
Absolutely. 

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And so as I said, I'm Kathryn 
Lum more. 

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Caffeine Bell said for anyone 
who worked with me pre-marriage 

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I live just outside leads and I 
lead the transformation pmo in 

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one of upper reaches. 
Has business units and I suppose

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my career as almost come full 
circle and as I actually started

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my graduate scheme in a project 
control, pmo support will and I 

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kind of always say, it's the 
sliding door moment of my whole 

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life. 
Emma was was getting The 

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Graduate trainee position, a 
fabulous, small consultancy 

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company, which specialized in 
systems integration called 

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Centegra and I'm a first day I 
kind of turned up with an 

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incredible work ethic filled 
with common sense but my tool 

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box was empty and Oh, kind of 
coming from the middle of 

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nowhere in Cumbria pre-internet.
I wasn't really particularly 

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worldly and I just really really
felt out of my depth and but 

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very quickly found myself in a 
really great project team, you 

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know and after many years of 
boring jobs, when a student at 

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University the rule you know the
role of being a project manager 

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of pmo. 
It really really it lit a fire 

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in me and then kind of followed.
Lots of fabulous rotations. 

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Doing everything from pmo 
Project planning risk management

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taking a Actions, you know, kind
of understanding the end-to-end 

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project management life cycle, 
delivery framework, lots of work

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in requirements, contract 
management, defects technical 

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service transitions working in 
service operations and I kind of

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put all those different bits of 
the jigsaw together and an 

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account of found myself 
eventually becoming a project 

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manager. 
And at that point, I basically 

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spent all of my 20s finding the 
most demanding projects that I 

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could pack it up my little 
suitcase, Traveling all over. 

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The country are kind of living 
in hotels, three or four nights 

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a week. 
So yes I spent a lot of time in 

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London working on an NHS IT 
contract which was fantastic 

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kind of jumped over to Belfast. 
Got a bit of a neck. 

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First Transformation experience 
on a civil service project then 

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moved up to New Castle working 
with the government in Edinburgh

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and Glasgow and a big devolved 
systems integration project. 

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And you know, if I'm really 
honest Emma, I admit I work too 

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much. 
Slept under my desk too often 

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partied way too hard. 
Sorry. 

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Sorry networked and but it 
really kind of expedited my 

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experience, which has kind of 
led to some pretty meaty program

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manager and program director 
roles both on customer-facing 

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projects, but more recently, 
moving into transformation. 

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So What attracted you to kind of
come back through delivery and 

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back into the pmo is an 
industry, it's interesting. 

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So I am absolutely a project 
manager by trade and about three

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years ago. 
I was kind of program. 

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Gina a pretty meaty 
transformation program. 

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In my previous organization, 
they actually approached me and 

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into leading their we called it 
a TMR transformation management 

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office. 
But you know, for all intents 

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and purposes, it is a pmo. 
And I'll be honest, it a lot of 

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thinking went on. 
It was a really tough decision 

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and if I'm really candid, I 
think that's because because I 

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feel and I know a lot of my 
colleagues feel, there's quite 

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an industry-wide stigma 
surrounding pmo's, sometimes, 

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you know what kind of looked at 
as? 

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Oh stickers as policeman, you 
know, I spent much of my career 

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navigating and avoiding some of 
these kind of low value box 

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ticking pmo's because, you know,
I often didn't feel the value 

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myself and when this opportunity
came along, I did quite a lot of

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ping-ponging and I kind of 
decided I could continue being 

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frustrated. 
I could win Jack could Moon 

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about the pmo's or actually I 
could use this as an opportunity

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and do something about it. 
And the more I thought about it,

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the more I just knew that I 
could make a greater impact 

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moving into. 
Hammer evolve evolve in the 

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model the value. 
And I kind of came up with a 

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vision that, you know, I really 
wanted to break the bias on the 

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perception of pmo's and, you 
know, obviously Emma, like every

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pmo. 
You know, I wanted to ensure 

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excellence in the delivery of 
our projects and our programs, 

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but to me that's a given. 
But I do believe that a pmo can 

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kind of set the tone for how the
whole team operates. 

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So I just want you to smash 
those perceptions and and do it 

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a little bit differently but 
that that was A tough decision, 

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to make it all kind of went 
through. 

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But, you know, every pathway 
isn't isn't positive and sadly 

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within days of starting this new
role. 

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There was a, the board level 
leadership, changed the business

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pivoted, the role kind of 
disappeared and became something

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very different to the one taken 
another. 

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Well, don't lots of things in 
that year. 

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And you know, ultimately, I 
think the comment one, very 

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trusted and generous colleagues 
said to me was it was like, 

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putting Ronaldo. 
Ingles it was just totally the 

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wrong fit for me. 
And so again, you know, I could 

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kind of win John Moon again or I
could just accept that it hadn't

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worked out as I hoped and do 
something about it. 

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So, two years ago, Emma found a 
pmo senior manager role 

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advertising up and reach and I 
kind of decided to give it 

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another girl to find a place to 
to meet my vision went through 

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interviewing and got the rules. 
So yeah, that's how I ended up 

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at leading a pmo. 
That's a really interesting and 

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I think everybody that's 
listening. 

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That's worked in pmo, will be 
able to relate to that stigma, 

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that still exists in some 
organizations and trying to find

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the balance of being the police,
which is a legitimate part of 

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our role, as well as kind of 
driving the future and 

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innovating and, and doing all 
that other stuff. 

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So, I think that's, it's 
interesting that you've 

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experienced that as well. 
And I think like, I say 

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something that everybody will be
able to definitely relate to if 

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They've worked with in or 
alongside a pmo for sure so 

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let's get a little bit more into
the pmo itself. 

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Tell us a little bit about 
openreach so we can understand 

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the little bit of the context 
where you're pmos. 

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It's no absolutely context is 
everything so openreach. 

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I'm sure you'll have all heard 
about as intense in the vans on 

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the street but we connect 
millions of UK customers to The 

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Wider world through our Network.
We provide more than 28 million 

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consumers. 
We connect more than 5.6 Million

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UK businesses, and ultimately, 
the majority of the UK will be 

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an Old Pro each customer, but 
you just might not know it 

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because your consumer Network 
through what we call a customer 

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provider. 
So, I think about your internet 

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provider, like, Sky, talktalk, 
BT that there's 800 of them that

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we work with as our customers 
and our purpose in a poem. 

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Each is massive, you know, 
sometimes is a little bit 

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dramatic ever, but you know, I 
consider moments in history of 

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that. 
Are that have changed the world.

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You never think about the 
Industrial Revolution or a 

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little bit more recently in a 
moving from hot horses and cats 

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to cars or from black and white 
TVs to color TVs. 

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You know, there's all these 
changes and I think the 

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revolution that we are living 
through now is the move to 

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fiber. 
You know, many of us are you 

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know now able to work from home,
thanks to new technology but 

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that was just Unthinkable. 10 
years ago when we were all 

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dialing into Cole's on a fixed 
line headset. 

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You know, an old technology is 
continually demanding higher and

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more reliable bandwidths so our 
mission. 

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And open a chest, the rollout 
fiber to at least 25 million 

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homes by 2026 and we're 
currently at 9 million. 

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So we're making pretty pretty 
good progress. 

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So that's kind of open reach, 
but if we kind of delve down 

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into a preach, I work in it. 
Split into business units and I 

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work in one of the biggest 
business units called effendi 

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fiber Network delivery to kind 
of put a bit of scale to that. 

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It's an operational team of over
12,000 led by a phenomenal and 

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inspiring managing Director. 
Matt Hemmings and we're 

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basically building and 
connecting our customers at a 

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most of those, you know, most of
the 12,000 people are the 

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engineers that you see out in 
the fans on the street. 

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So we kind of jumped down into 
effendi the business unit. 

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I then work in a subunit in 
there called transformation and 

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change for an incredible 
inspiring and fantastic director

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called Zen Bowen. 
And we've got about 130 

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colleagues in our transformation
team, they're mainly project 

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managers business change 
experts. 

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And this team is responsible for
transforming our business to be 

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fit to serve and to meet that 
strategy. 

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And I fit within Zen's team. 
And one of my teams is the 

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transformation p.m. oh, well, 
that's a huge undertaking and 

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very interested to see, you 
know, how you hit those amazing 

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targets. 
Let's talk a little bit about 

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your portfolio then within the 
pmo team. 

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What are the kinds of projects 
that tend to sit within your 

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portfolio? 
Are they all about delivering 

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fiber or you doing other stuff? 
As well, no definitely 

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definitely other stuff. 
And so this was again to scale. 

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It we've got any one time up to 
200 projects, split across six, 

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programs in that portfolio. 
And most of those projects 

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involve, some kind of process 
people and often system changes 

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to imagine we're trying to 
schedule the work of you know, 

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over ten thousand Engineers 
every day. 

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That's really quite complex. 
So a lot of our projects around 

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scheduling that work more 
effectively, we do. 

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Sing travel time serving our 
customers quicker. 

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We've kind of dabbled into the 
world of data science and we've 

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got some fantastically clever 
algorithms to identify those 

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customers orders that are most 
likely to fail based on history.

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So we can intervene early to 
deliver for our customers. 

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A lot of our projects are about 
automation improving workflows. 

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So there's less touch points, 
less points of failure. 

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You know, we really do try and 
focus on our customers. 

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So at the moment, we're doing a 
lot of work to improve customer.

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Comes through a multitude of. 
Different channels. 

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And if you think about trying to
roll out fiber 225 million 

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homes, you know but it's an 
insane infrastructure project. 

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I think behind her she has to 
wear the second biggest 

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infrastructure program in the 
country at the moment, we're 

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always out, you know, we're 
identifying like physical 

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tooling, you know, as a project 
the other day came on my desk 

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about jetters, right? 
My boy, what's this, you know, 

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these are things that can 
resolve blockages in the ground 

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that typically historically 
would have had to dig up the 

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road and put traffic Management 
in place, and all the 

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frustration that It comes with 
that, you know, we've got some 

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fantastic technology that can 
blow the fiber through the pipes

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under the ground for many 
kilometers. 

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So we can build quicker. 
So it's it's just such a 

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fascinating business and, you 
know, in the last two years I've

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been here, it's kind of really, 
really blown me away and what 

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were what were, what we're 
doing, Emma. 

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So yeah, our team doesn't 
actually deliver the fiber, we 

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deliver improved processes and 
ways so that the team's rolling 

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out, the fiber can do it more, 
effectively, and quicker. 

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That's really fascinating and 
mostly because most of us like 

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to say are consuming this and 
have no idea what sits behind 

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it. 
It's really really interesting 

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in within our Industries where 
the accepted that pmo's are 

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usually created to respond to a 
particular challenge or 

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opportunity. 
What was the trigger for your 

228
00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:24,500
pmo to be set up? 
No, absolutely about. 

229
00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:26,100
Well, we can we've seen the 
vision there, right? 

230
00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,000
And why we have to be 
successful. 

231
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:32,300
And so it's of my director, Zane
was a few months into In his new

232
00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:35,500
role leading, a transformation 
delivery when he advertised my 

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00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:38,400
rule and actually there was an 
incumbent pmo Emma, when I 

234
00:12:38,408 --> 00:12:41,000
joined the business with some 
really incredible people in it, 

235
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,700
it just hadn't fully decided 
what it wanted to be or fully 

236
00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,200
defined the services. 
It was, it was gone up or gone 

237
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,100
on offer and it was kind of 
existing in an environment 

238
00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:51,700
where, you know, it's I think we
all know. 

239
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:54,400
It's really, really hard to work
without clear. 

240
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,800
Executive support, you know, 
where missions and objectives 

241
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,700
aren't fully defined, you know, 
and the team had some great 

242
00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:03,800
Frameworks and some Processes. 
But they weren't embedded the 

243
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,800
word been adopted and weren't 
being used. 

244
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,400
Therefore, the value wasn't been
realized the Lords of governance

245
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,700
events happening, but there was 
just such a huge opportunity to 

246
00:13:12,700 --> 00:13:16,500
drive more value from these, you
know, simple things. 

247
00:13:16,508 --> 00:13:19,900
I know every project every 
business suffers from this 

248
00:13:19,900 --> 00:13:22,400
certainly the ones I've worked 
in, sometimes it can even be as 

249
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,200
best because it's really hard to
identify one single list of all 

250
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,100
the projects that were 
delivering across this massive 

251
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:29,300
business, you know? 
And if therefore, for example 

252
00:13:29,308 --> 00:13:31,600
Emerson, once said to me, one 
another dates on every project, 

253
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,200
Eject, how was impossible 
because every project delivered 

254
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,800
in its own way with its own life
cycle. 

255
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,000
It's on Milestones, you know, 
and all buried in their own 

256
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,900
project plans to you. 
You couldn't get that data and 

257
00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:43,000
that insight to drive the 
decisions. 

258
00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:45,900
You know, this was kind of 
leading to, you know, a bit of a

259
00:13:45,908 --> 00:13:48,300
history of projects being 
delivered late more often than 

260
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,400
we'd like, you know, and leading
to disrupted operations, you 

261
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,900
know, we're transforming the way
they work. 

262
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,900
But sometimes we were impacting 
that and so yes, every project 

263
00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:00,100
manager got some brilliant 
budget managers, but the doll, 

264
00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:02,900
you know, like we all like to do
Project manager hats on. 

265
00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:06,000
We like to deliver things in our
room where you know without any 

266
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,900
Frameworks you know kind of work
it out as you go along. 

267
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,000
But this is a complex business. 
You've got to work with over 15 

268
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,400
teams on each project because 
that knowledge wasn't codified. 

269
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,800
You almost had to have been, you
know, permits for a few years to

270
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,300
learn how to deliver projects. 
So, you know, for me, when I got

271
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,800
this job, it was just, you know,
rather than that being 

272
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,200
overwhelming, which it could 
have been it was actually just a

273
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,000
really, really exciting 
opportunity and a great time to 

274
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,900
join. 
And getting to work for Zane as 

275
00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:35,800
well. 
Amazing, I love the concept of 

276
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,400
the tacit knowledge that sits 
within the business and how so 

277
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,700
many organizations don't take 
advantage of that and it only 

278
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:46,600
becomes a problem or opportunity
when somebody leaves and that 

279
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,600
knowledge leaves with them. 
It's it's fascinating the whole 

280
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,900
Knowledge Management piece. 
So, to drive that, then what 

281
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:55,400
approach did you use to 
establish your PML? 

282
00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:58,900
Gosh. 
Well, I'd had Journey from A, to

283
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:02,400
B, as a project in itself, and 
if I'm honest, We run it as a 

284
00:15:02,408 --> 00:15:04,800
project as well. 
You kind of can't take the 

285
00:15:04,808 --> 00:15:08,000
project manager out of me. 
So you know when I first started

286
00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:10,500
you know we worked really works 
really hard to understand the 

287
00:15:10,508 --> 00:15:13,800
business to really understand it
as is and you know, started to 

288
00:15:13,808 --> 00:15:16,400
carry out maturity assessment as
well. 

289
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,300
You know, did a lot of 
interviews ran quite a lot of 

290
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,900
Retros or Lessons Learned and 
you know, and and that kind of 

291
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:27,400
led to basically deciding what 
we what we were going to be. 

292
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,800
What did this business need to 
know that every p.m. on these be

293
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,400
entirely? 
Aunt and aligned to what that 

294
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,700
business and that company needs.
So we kind of worked on what the

295
00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:39,800
services were. 
We were going to offer as a pmo,

296
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:42,800
you know, we you kind of said at
the start of the call as well 

297
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,700
but you know, preach we're also 
really lucky to win. 

298
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,900
Not look it. 
But you know it's fantastic that

299
00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:52,500
we also won the program of the 
year and and that's a 

300
00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:54,000
partnership program with 
Accenture. 

301
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,900
So, you know, at that point we 
were able to build on some great

302
00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,500
MVP work that we've done on that
major program with Accenture and

303
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,500
it that really helped 
Stakeholder support and buy-in 

304
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,900
as well, which is the key. 
So, you know, we agree division,

305
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,200
we agreed the services, which 
work for this business and then 

306
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,200
I split the execution in two 
tranches. 

307
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,100
So, you know, we're, we 
prioritized, first of all, a 

308
00:16:15,108 --> 00:16:19,200
delivery lifecycle framework, it
some, getting controls with 

309
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,100
perfected, some strong 
governance events, and we have 

310
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:25,500
to improve our financial Benefit
Management. 

311
00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:29,000
It took a lot of time. 
We didn't try and do everything 

312
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,300
with pick those three things but
it but it really Added to work 

313
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,800
in our delivery improved 
benefits were realized and we 

314
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,600
got that all importance. 
They're called a buy-in, but 

315
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,900
that was only on one of those 
six programs because I do 

316
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:44,300
believe don't try and design 
something and then roll it out 

317
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:48,200
everywhere, design, something 
and pilot it, perfect it and 

318
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,700
make sure it works so and so I 
suppose after that we wanted to 

319
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,000
mature the pmo. 
So you know, the value was 

320
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,000
proven on that one program or 
sponsorship from all those key 

321
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,500
stakeholders was in place and we
wanted to both widen and Expand 

322
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:06,700
the pmo, so offer more services 
and also roll it out tomorrow. 

323
00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:08,500
If there are more of those 
programs. 

324
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:12,099
And so our priority action was 
maturing our delivery lifecycle 

325
00:17:12,099 --> 00:17:15,300
codify in, even more knowledge, 
Emma into one place. 

326
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,099
You know, we're introduced some 
strategic tooling at this point.

327
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:21,900
We felt we were mature enough to
introduce tooling to drive date 

328
00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:26,900
control and able reporting 
Automation, and, and bolster our

329
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:30,000
risk management processes. 
This also meant was as a pmo 

330
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,600
team could do more with the same
amount. 

331
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:36,200
Out of people because we were 
automating a lot of the work I 

332
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,900
think in parallel at all times, 
I kept regular reflecting on my 

333
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,900
my perceptions of pmo's of old 
and the biggest frustrations 

334
00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:49,600
that I had, and so in parallel, 
in our, we as a pmo team really 

335
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,600
focused on the culture in our 
team and I want I want this pmo 

336
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,900
to be there to Champion 
successful role. 

337
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:59,300
So if a project fails we have 
failed, right? 

338
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,500
Will stand up there. 
We failed you But if the project

339
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:06,000
succeeds, they are celebrated, 
they get the praise and it's 

340
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,800
it's really different behaviors.
So, that to what the team had 

341
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,200
previously been used to working 
within our don't want 

342
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,700
finger-pointing, don't want to 
be trying to catch people out. 

343
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:18,200
Don't want to be like, trying to
prove people wrong. 

344
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,100
It's not about that. 
We're there to enable the 

345
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,200
success. 
And so if, you know, if you 

346
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,400
fail, we fail, if you succeed 
well done, you've done an 

347
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,300
awesome job. 
So, you know, again that the 

348
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,500
cultural bit I think has been a 
big part of Of of why we've 

349
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:35,700
landed and been successful. 
So, you know, we piloted this 

350
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,800
full pmo offering across two 
programs and we continue to 

351
00:18:39,808 --> 00:18:43,000
reiterate it, right? 
We took another number of months

352
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,200
to get it fully working. 
We ran a lot of feedback loops 

353
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,300
and I've really tried to 
actively create a safe 

354
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:52,800
environment to tell us what what
wasn't working on the ground. 

355
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,400
And, you know, we introduced a 
lot of gamification trying to 

356
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,500
get people to adopt these new 
ways of working through fun 

357
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:03,300
little are competitions and 
Prizes and things like that. 

358
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,300
And, you know, I spent a lot of 
my time traveling. 

359
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:07,800
The country actually doing 
really interactive training 

360
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,400
sessions, you know, to support 
the rule out because we can, you

361
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,400
know, we you need a pmo 
capability, has to be at the 

362
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,500
level to adopt this and to be 
successful. 

363
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,900
So there's a lot of coaching and
training and working with our 

364
00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:22,300
fabulous p.m. teams as well at 
this point. 

365
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:26,500
Suppose suppose, you know, we 
started small with matured it 

366
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:29,300
and then it was all about 
scaling it making sure that we 

367
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:32,900
you know once the the not only 
the ways of working were tested 

368
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:36,600
and proven actually the way that
you successfully rule it out was

369
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,700
proven through the challenges 
we've had, and we scaled it to 

370
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:42,700
all six programs across the full
portfolio. 

371
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,100
So that's kind of where we find 
ourselves today but you know, if

372
00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:49,800
we kind of think that's the end 
of the story and you know that 

373
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,400
that then would be wrong because
the jobs never done, right. 

374
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,400
But The pmo adapts. 
It changes and we must remain 

375
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,400
relevant and valuable. 
So you know, we've always got a 

376
00:19:58,408 --> 00:19:59,600
roadmap. 
What's next? 

377
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,100
What's the next thing we want to
introduce? 

378
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,900
What's the next thing we could, 
you know, make easier. 

379
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:07,500
So yeah, lots of lots of 
exciting work to get to this 

380
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:09,600
point, but you know, we 
definitely look forward with 

381
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,200
what's next at all times as 
well, just irrelevant. 

382
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:16,400
It's a fascinating and really 
inspiring journey and I think it

383
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,200
will be really good for other 
pmo professionals to hear it. 

384
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:24,400
I remember I was involved in 
designing the pmo award with the

385
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,000
APM and what are the key things 
that we were really focusing in 

386
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,700
on his legacy? 
And I think that's one of the 

387
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,900
things that often gets missed, 
is like, when you move on to 

388
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:37,800
something new and shiny, what do
you leave behind, or is it 

389
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,900
something amazing? 
Or is it something that because 

390
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:45,400
you're driving it, it kind of 
Starts to wither away over time 

391
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,300
and I think that's really 
impressive. 

392
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:50,300
And one of the things that for 
me it's really important that 

393
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:53,100
you've done and that's really 
focused on what do we need for 

394
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:54,900
now. 
But getting into that 

395
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:58,300
scalability and that Evolution 
to kind of really leave a 

396
00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:00,500
cultural Legacy about what you 
guys are doing. 

397
00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:04,000
So really well done for that and
bedding and sustaining a project

398
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,100
is the hardest part of any 
project. 

399
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,100
It's no different. 
This is a project in itself. 

400
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,000
Isn't Amino embedding this way 
of working. 

401
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,300
It has to embed and sustained. 
Enough for the future. 

402
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:15,900
So, no, I couldn't couldn't 
agree. 

403
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:17,700
More did you also find the 
question? 

404
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:19,600
I get asked the most of all, I 
don't know if you do Emma. 

405
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,100
But how do I start? 
Where do I start? 

406
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:24,200
What do I do that? 
That's kind of the most common 

407
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,200
question I get asked. 
Yeah, definitely. 

408
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,300
I think that, you know, though, 
I wrote something on LinkedIn or

409
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:33,900
that long ago with that you know
a few different tips on these 

410
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:37,400
are the first things that you 
need to be doing and for me they

411
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,600
include firstly. 
No, the organization you can't 

412
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,900
lift and shift a pmo. 
You need to And exactly what you

413
00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:45,700
mentioned. 
What is the service? 

414
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,900
What are the services that are 
relevant that are appropriate to

415
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:53,900
your organization? 
Reality also know your strengths

416
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:56,300
and your weaknesses within 
yourself and your team. 

417
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,700
We do tend to find that pmo's 
get set up by maybe one or two 

418
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:02,900
people and it's because they're 
there and they're available. 

419
00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,400
A lot of the time. 
They don't necessarily have the 

420
00:22:05,408 --> 00:22:08,300
experience and pmo, they have 
experience in delivery and that 

421
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:12,200
can be really challenging 
because then we are setting 

422
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,500
something up. 
Up because of our own experience

423
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:17,700
or not really looking at our 
internal customers. 

424
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,700
You know, for me, the pmo is a 
service provider just like it. 

425
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,400
We have a bunch of internal 
customers. 

426
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,900
They consume our services and I 
think that's that's really 

427
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,800
important. 
And that's where the Legacy 

428
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,300
starts to come into play. 
It's much bigger than the 

429
00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:34,700
process and the lifecycle and 
the templates in the tools which

430
00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:39,000
we need and are very tactical 
and absolutely add value, but 

431
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,400
it's taking it to that next 
level. 

432
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,700
I think that's what you guys 
have definitely managed to do. 

433
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,100
Do now you've talked a little 
bit about people and the 

434
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:50,900
Fantastic Team that you work 
with people for me are the most 

435
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,800
important part of pmo. 
I always talk about a human 

436
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,200
first approach, you know, speak 
to the humans before you speak 

437
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,800
to the pmo people. 
So how do you manage the 

438
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,800
competency of your pmo team? 
How do you upskill cross skill? 

439
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,500
And make sure that your guys are
staying motivated and ahead of 

440
00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:11,400
the Curve. 
I'll be honest, our team is not 

441
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,600
typical of a pmo. 
We've got a real diverse team 

442
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,400
with a mix of skills and 
experiences. 

443
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,000
So some of the people in RPM or 
we've delivered projects to 

444
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,600
customers internally and 
externally which is great. 

445
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,900
Right. 
Have been a project manager. 

446
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:27,800
Well, those have kind of seen 
the evolution of this p.m. our 

447
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,300
role in up and reach over 
several years, sort of the 

448
00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:34,400
beading pmo for quite some time.
Some of our people are actually 

449
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,400
from operations. 
So they've come from the 

450
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,100
operational side of the business
and then, Might start with 

451
00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:42,600
little or even no, pmo 
experience, but they personally 

452
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,200
have first-hand knowledge of how
our business works. 

453
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,900
And they also know how it feels 
to receive the changes that we 

454
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,000
rule out in our projects. 
So to me they bring SME 

455
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,600
knowledge which is just critical
for us to be different, you 

456
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:57,900
know? 
Because they understand that 

457
00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:01,100
perspective, it means we can 
really put the customers first. 

458
00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:04,900
We can do better Assurance bake 
make better recommendations 

459
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:07,000
because we know the business 
more. 

460
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,700
And, and my deputy sheriff said,
to me the other day and I've 

461
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,300
built a really nice team, 
haven't where and, and it sounds

462
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,800
really cheesy to say it. 
But it is certainly genuinely 

463
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,600
the happiest most contented team
that I've worked in. 

464
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,200
And it's been about finding the 
right mix of skills but also 

465
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,100
personalities. 
And at the moment, you know, 

466
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:29,800
we're seeing in industry and 
really, really high churn, you 

467
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,600
know, all over the place. 
But if I'm honest, I'm just, I'm

468
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,300
actually proud that we've been 
stable for over a year now. 

469
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:37,600
You know, the team want to be 
here, they want. 

470
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:42,300
To say they know our purpose. 
They know how we fit in there. 

471
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:47,600
Know, why were critical? 
And I think at times P MOS teams

472
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:53,100
don't always do always feel that
So we have daily stand-ups, 

473
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:55,500
where we have two groups of work
that we go through. 

474
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:59,600
So one is what I call BAU. 
And the other is, is evolved. 

475
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,100
And let's be honest, people have
a bias, some people like to do 

476
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,200
the jobs where they know what 
they're doing, where the turning

477
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,300
the handle, and they're running 
the reports and running the 

478
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:09,600
health checks and running the 
government's and chasing up 

479
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,900
actions. 
You know, so people really do 

480
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:15,300
have a bias and a preference. 
So you know, some people prefer 

481
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:18,500
the BAU, Some people prefer 
working in the evolved side. 

482
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,600
What's next? 
What's coming up next? 

483
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,100
What's the next new thing we 
need to do? 

484
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:23,500
What's the next bit of business 
Assurance? 

485
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:25,200
You want to introduce our make 
better. 

486
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,500
So we give people the 
opportunity to have a preference

487
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,700
but we do get everybody involved
in both. 

488
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,200
So even those people that prefer
to turn the handle are always 

489
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,800
learning new things and being 
challenged and I think you know 

490
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,800
that that brings a real 
satisfaction that I hope to the 

491
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,700
team. 
And I think we can't forget that

492
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:47,100
we've operated and I started 
this job, we're in covered and I

493
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,900
think we're probably a year into
covid at the time now is the 

494
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:53,100
ping-pong of The office out of 
the office and it's been really 

495
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,800
tough to convince people to 
return to the office. 

496
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,600
You know, we do operate a hybrid
model here at upper each which 

497
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,500
is great and provides, great 
flexibility. 

498
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:05,900
But you can't force people to 
come back into the office or for

499
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,100
me, it's about being trying to 
make it compelling so that 

500
00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,900
people want to come back in. 
So when we do ever get together 

501
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,200
as a team, everyone just feels 
like they're buzzing they're 

502
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,100
energized and I think you know 
our learning and our progress 

503
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:19,500
really solves by working first 
the first. 

504
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:23,100
So I'm always trying to To build
on that momentum and and use the

505
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:25,900
enablers that we have as well. 
So, you know, like most 

506
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:29,700
corporate companies were 
allowed, a few volunteering days

507
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,000
a year. 
You know, was a full team. 

508
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,000
We've got together doing 
footpath, lay in this last year 

509
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,600
or half the team, a few months 
ago up into the food bank, in 

510
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,200
leads the other half, did some 
gardening at grenfell, you know,

511
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,400
we're had a lot of fun nights 
out as well. 

512
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,800
And so I think we just got a 
really nice environment and what

513
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,300
we try and do fun things 
together to build those 

514
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,300
connections as a team. 
But, you know, we do hold 

515
00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:55,200
ourselves to very, very high 
standards. 

516
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,200
And I was asking my team, one of
my team near the dead kind of 

517
00:26:58,208 --> 00:27:01,300
reflect on this question. 
And they just said, you know, no

518
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:04,200
one ever takes anything. 
Personally, we all believe in 

519
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,300
continuous Improvement and we 
just want to help each other. 

520
00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:08,800
We do not want to bring each 
other down. 

521
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,300
It's just a really positive, 
uplifting culture in the team, 

522
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:15,600
but it took a long time, right? 
To get better and bring it. 

523
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:21,000
Bring in some people in Yes, the
people side I think is really 

524
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,500
important and I think it's great
that you've you've really taken 

525
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:26,400
what's available to you, like 
you say like the volunteer 

526
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,400
volunteer and days, I know that 
that kind of work becomes really

527
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,100
important to bring the team 
together and to be doing 

528
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:36,900
something different. 
So I organized every year, a 

529
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,300
project management Day of 
Service, where we get people 

530
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:44,200
from industry to come and give 
pro bono support for a date, too

531
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,900
small to medium-sized Charities 
and it, you know it starts off. 

532
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,800
As something nice to do. 
And actually, then very quickly 

533
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,900
become as one of the most 
important thing that the team 

534
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:55,100
does is to actually give 
something back from our 

535
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,900
industry. 
So it's, I think that's really, 

536
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:00,200
really good thing that you've 
done. 

537
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,700
And you've mentioned it, briefly
around, you know, what makes 

538
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:07,000
your pmo unique and different 
and you talked about skill, sets

539
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:10,800
or pmo's a different. 
That's why I love my job. 

540
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,000
Every pmo I speak to is is a 
different conversation outside 

541
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,800
of skill sets. 
Is there anything else that you 

542
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600
say you would you think? 
Think would make sure your pmo 

543
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,200
interesting different successful
that people might be able to 

544
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,800
take away? 
You wouldn't believe it today 

545
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,000
with how much I'm talking, but I
generally, I'm a, they'll be a 

546
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,300
lot of people smoking now when I
say this, that, that know me, 

547
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:35,600
but I'm a real fan of 
succinctness and brevity, you 

548
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,800
know, we are often surrounded by
people who make things complex, 

549
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,300
say a thousand words when 50 
would do and kind of cause 

550
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:45,600
confusion or distraction, with 
too much detail and and our goal

551
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,800
as a team is to always be simple
and straightforward. 

552
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,900
And I think, you know, I want us
to be trusted if we say we'll do

553
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:55,200
something, we always do it. 
And to me, Me and I like, I we 

554
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,700
have a monster action tracker in
the team from every meeting 

555
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:00,700
every piece of governance. 
Every action we ever get as a 

556
00:29:00,708 --> 00:29:03,900
team goes in that tracker. 
So, you know, we make sure we 

557
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,600
follow through on everything to 
make sure that we build that 

558
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,600
trust and that's made a big 
difference, because often you 

559
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,500
sit in events, people say, 
they'll do something. 

560
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,100
You never hear from them. 
Again will always go back and 

561
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:17,500
make sure that we do it. 
I think our intranet is kind of 

562
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:20,600
a real amazing tool that we've 
introduced. 

563
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,500
We kind of get thousands of hits
a month, sounds really obvious 

564
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,000
but it just It just has 
everything in one place, really 

565
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,200
clear guidance for everybody to 
support the successful delivery 

566
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:35,300
of our transformation agenda. 
And I think the main difference 

567
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:38,600
though, is our world. 
Why why why? 

568
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,400
You know it's the why we really 
try. 

569
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,900
Never to tell anyone to do 
something. 

570
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,900
We spend time explaining the, 
why this is this is actually 

571
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:51,200
been a huge focus on the team's 
development as well on that 

572
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,300
culture that we had a whole two 
day workshop dedicated to why, 

573
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:58,700
maybe if I try and bring it to 
life with a couple of examples. 

574
00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:02,500
So, you know, within we have to 
govern and many business 

575
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:04,900
insurance activities. 
So we're a really highly 

576
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:07,200
regulated industry and that 
brings lots of checks, you know,

577
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,000
heavily unionized need lots of 
Union engagement, but you know, 

578
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,800
a real critical area, critical 
Assurance area for us is safety 

579
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,600
safety first every time in this 
business, if you think about it,

580
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,400
every single change, every 
single project, we deliver has 

581
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,600
the potential to impact the 
safety of our colleagues. 

582
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,200
So, historically every project 
with a gauge, the health and 

583
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,500
safety team contacts themselves 
to imagine 200. 

584
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,300
Doing this ad hoc it was an 
industry in itself so you know, 

585
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,200
it really, really basic thing 
we've done but we just centrally

586
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,300
govern and funnel all projects 
into the right. 

587
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:46,800
Kind of health and safety Forum 
at the right time and you re use

588
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,700
one of your existing artifacts 
and you pop along for two 

589
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:52,500
minutes. 
There's no work, no prep, bring 

590
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:55,200
something you already have and 
just pop into this meeting for 

591
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,000
two minutes and get the tick in 
the Box. 

592
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,100
Because if your project, just 
something that in just someone 

593
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:02,900
just just imagine that Guys, 
right, imagine the impact. 

594
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:05,700
So we just literally as they're 
all, you know, so I don't have 

595
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:07,300
time. 
Why do I need to do this? 

596
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:10,300
We try and explain if they don't
do this, what could happen and 

597
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:12,800
all we want is two minutes and 
we've really made it as easy as 

598
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,000
we possibly can. 
The other thing, we get a lot of

599
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,700
pushback and wide for. 
Did you know, when we first 

600
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:19,300
introduced it? 
Why do we have to use this 

601
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:22,700
system to put my status updates 
in guys, give us four bits of 

602
00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:25,900
information, once a week will 
reuse that in three different 

603
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:27,600
governance event. 
You don't have to go into three 

604
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,000
PowerPoint decks, you can, you 
know, leave us to do all the 

605
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,900
donkey work. 
And that gives you more time to 

606
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:35,700
deliver not be preparing 
governance events. 

607
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,900
So it's all about the why and 
try, you know, we've tried to 

608
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:41,300
design things to be as 
streamlined as possible as well,

609
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:43,700
so everything is don't do this. 
You know, if there's any 

610
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:45,600
pushback, it's just give me a 
couple of minutes. 

611
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,900
Let me just explain why this 
matters and and people don't 

612
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:52,300
always agree, right? 
And, and genuinely will listen. 

613
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:55,800
So, we've got a feedback loop on
every email on every template 

614
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,000
and actually, I sometimes go 
out. 

615
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,600
I don't know why, but you know, 
actively trying to find things 

616
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,900
to improve even further. 
So I do Do you know? 

617
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:05,100
Run quite a lot of Retros across
the program's gather feedback 

618
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,000
and if something goes wrong or a
project fails or something 

619
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,500
didn't happen as it should, 
we'll get to the root cause and 

620
00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:15,200
then we could if I that learning
into our framework and our 

621
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,100
templates immediately. 
So we learn from that so that 

622
00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:21,800
every other project coming up 
behind a standards, has it built

623
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,800
into their framework that that 
takes real discipline and to do 

624
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,300
that. 
But you know we set we set the 

625
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:30,700
standards High, we do what we 
say we will and I think that's 

626
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:33,700
kind of built. 
The respect and the trust and 

627
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:37,300
they all kind of come back to. 
If they fail we failed if they 

628
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:41,000
succeed, they get the prayers so
and so. 

629
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,600
Yeah, it's about the, why? 
And about listening. 

630
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,500
Yeah, amazing. 
The spend a lot of time talking 

631
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:50,500
to people about, why? 
Because if you can't articulate 

632
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:53,400
it, no one else is going to be 
able to articulate it outlined 

633
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,700
or understand why you're there. 
So I think that's really 

634
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:58,800
important and and you know, 
value and perception is so 

635
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,600
important in that and you know, 
we always say beauty. 

636
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:03,600
Your values and eye of the 
beholder. 

637
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,100
What do you think are the 
benefits that your customers 

638
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:10,500
perceive from your pmo into the 
organization? 

639
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,900
How do you change their 
day-to-day? 

640
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:16,900
So yes, our p.m. 
I was helped us be more 

641
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:20,600
predictable in the delivery of 
our projects and programs, you 

642
00:33:20,608 --> 00:33:23,700
know, and I'm a massive fan of 
tangibly measuring these 

643
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:25,400
outcomes as well. 
So what, you know, our on-time 

644
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,200
delivery has dramatically 
improved over the last year, and

645
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,100
we run Checked Health scores and
these are trending in the right 

646
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:36,100
direction. 
But again, this actually isn't 

647
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:39,100
to call out and do performance 
is actually if I'm honest to 

648
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:41,800
identify those project managers 
who might need extra support and

649
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,100
coaching. 
So it's, you know, it's got a 

650
00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:46,600
dual purpose as those kind of 
scores. 

651
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,700
So to help people but make sure 
that our projects are healthier 

652
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:53,600
than what they were. 
And as a business, as every 

653
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,900
business, we've got to reduce 
our cost base both for a 

654
00:33:56,908 --> 00:34:00,800
longevity but also to invest 
back into that once in a 

655
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,900
generational Information that 
were leading to go for fiber. 

656
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:08,400
So benefits management, cost 
control is a big part of our of 

657
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:11,199
how we measure our success. 
And last year, we actually did 

658
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:15,600
our Target by by 15% which was 
can't go into numbers but as a 

659
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:21,199
phenomenal amount of reduction 
in the cost base and I think to 

660
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:26,600
me, people only go to governance
consistently if it's good. 

661
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,600
I don't know how many meetings 
in my diary. 

662
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,300
I don't go to anymore because 
it's just not good governance. 

663
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:35,100
Not Use of my time isn't driving
value and I think the most you 

664
00:34:35,107 --> 00:34:38,100
know we have a lot of governance
but I'm most valuable part of 

665
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:41,699
our governance is I gating 
board. 

666
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:46,000
You know people come to that 
consistently because you know 

667
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,500
with could if I had years of 
knowledge into a framework and 

668
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:51,400
all were doing is making sure 
the right deliverables have been

669
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,699
created at the right time that 
the right people have reviewed 

670
00:34:54,699 --> 00:34:56,900
and approved them. 
So that we're engaging our 

671
00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:00,300
stakeholders, we go through all 
of the learning from recent 

672
00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:03,700
projects and make sure we're not
Making the same mistakes or 

673
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,600
anything that went particularly 
well that were building that 

674
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,100
learning in. 
And we make sure that because 

675
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:11,900
every single metrics, team 
attends that every project has 

676
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:14,300
all the people they need to 
deliver the next phase. 

677
00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:16,700
It all sounds really common 
sense, but if you get to the 

678
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,100
root cause of why projects go 
wrong, it's because we're not 

679
00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:21,500
engaging the right stakeholders 
at the right time I were missing

680
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:24,500
just one or two important people
out or we're not interlocking 

681
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:26,300
with the teams that deliver the 
projects. 

682
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,500
So you know are getting boards. 
Probably, you know, the fact 

683
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:34,300
Comes to them and that is the 
big event of the week is 

684
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:37,700
something I'm really proud about
and you know Alex Grace and when

685
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:40,300
I had my a hugely recently 
dropped a note to the team 

686
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:42,100
saying it was the best gating 
he'd ever seen. 

687
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:45,200
Which was, you know, just just a
phenomenal. 

688
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,100
So yeah and I hope if I'm honest
but the two are p.m. 

689
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,100
Awards as well and you know sure
that we're doing something 

690
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:54,200
right. 
But for me why that is important

691
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,100
is we have wants to attract 
Talent into the team because at 

692
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,800
the end of the day it's about 
people and you know, So if 

693
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,200
people can kind of get excited 
and see how we work and want to 

694
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,600
join our team that that for me 
is great as well. 

695
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:11,900
That's really old sounds 
brilliantly. 

696
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,800
Positive. 
What about challenges though? 

697
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,900
Let's flip the coin. 
What are the main challenges 

698
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:21,100
that your pmo faces? 
We can always focus on the 

699
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:23,000
positive cat. 
We are where we got to, but 

700
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,900
goodness me. 
This has been a journey. 

701
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,700
I have a few more grey hairs and
I did two years ago and I took 

702
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:30,800
this job. 
And I think the challenges that 

703
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,400
we faced and no different to the
ones that any other p.m. office 

704
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,700
is when I speak to two 
colleagues from other 

705
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:40,600
businesses, but now the first 
one was that Policeman right? 

706
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,400
It's really really tough to 
change the behaviors of some of 

707
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,600
the incumbent pmo colleagues. 
It was about demoing the 

708
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,500
behaviors. 
And for me it was actually about

709
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:53,000
being vulnerable and showing 
them that if something did fail,

710
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,000
there was no kind of comeback on
them. 

711
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,300
You know, and and really try to 
build trust in the team. 

712
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,500
And, and by showing the value, 
by doing things differently, 

713
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,900
I'll be honest. 
You know, most people jumped on 

714
00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:07,700
board and then it was all about 
a mix of headhunting. 

715
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,000
So some people I've worked with 
in These businesses at chose to 

716
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,800
come and join me, which is just 
phenomenal. 

717
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,300
When people kind of choose to 
come and work with you again, 

718
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,700
you know, we did rotate some 
colleagues, and we did a lot of 

719
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:21,700
coaching, but that's led us to 
that. 

720
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,500
Collaborative, helpful 
value-adding team that, you 

721
00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:26,400
know, has helped the business 
business successful. 

722
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:30,100
And I think the W are often easy
and appear Montana. 

723
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:31,800
We keep saying it, but it's how 
you do it. 

724
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,400
That's the key here. 
So the first one was changing, 

725
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,600
the behaviors of the pmo, but 
outside of the team, you know, I

726
00:37:39,607 --> 00:37:41,900
was going around the country, 
working with the project 

727
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:45,800
managers for me. 
I actually just told my story. 

728
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:47,200
So, you know, I'd stand up in my
god. 

729
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,700
I've been, you know, I resonated
with them about those 

730
00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:53,500
perceptions and the challenges 
that they had, and I kind of 

731
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:56,600
told them that I needed their 
help to build something that's 

732
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,300
different. 
And to build a culture where the

733
00:37:59,308 --> 00:38:02,600
pmo shows, Runner ability and 
creates a safe space for a 

734
00:38:02,607 --> 00:38:04,400
feedback. 
You know, again, you fail. 

735
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,200
We fail, you succeed. 
Well done. 

736
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:09,400
So it was it was all about 
getting the truth. 

737
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,300
Stand, the respect of the 
project managers and building 

738
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:14,500
those relationships at all 
levels from the, you know, the 

739
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,300
program directors right down to 
the the more Junior project 

740
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:19,700
managers we've had. 
So, you know, I know all of them

741
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,800
spent time with all of them and 
and resonated with them that 

742
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,700
hope has helped build that 
trust. 

743
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,700
And I think the next challenge 
we had is the Matrix 

744
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,900
organization we working. 
So anyone here working for a big

745
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:36,700
company will also operate in a 
complex Matrix team. 

746
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:39,400
You know we've got it teams 
data, aha. 

747
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,900
HR operations themselves, change
teams, etc, etc, etc. 

748
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,900
And those teams need to come 
together at the right time on 

749
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:49,600
every project. 
So, if I give you an idea of the

750
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,500
scale of the challenge, 15 
different metrics teams, all 

751
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:57,200
need to come together at the 
right point on 200 projects, 

752
00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:02,900
that's 3,000 individual 
engagements all happening. 

753
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,100
Independently. 
So we worked with every single 

754
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:11,300
team to contract on their 
services, what could we expect 

755
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,300
from them? 
A standard and kind of agreed. 

756
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:17,800
Best practice templates and we 
streamlined and agreed, you 

757
00:39:17,808 --> 00:39:20,300
know, engagement mechanics, you 
know, front doors. 

758
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:25,500
And finally we then built that 
into our delivery framework to 

759
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,900
give really clear guidance and 
assurance that that was 

760
00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:30,900
happening. 
So you know really try to give 

761
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:34,000
give the PM's time to manage the
projects not trying to work out.

762
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,600
Who should do this bit, who 
should do that bit? 

763
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,700
How do I get in touch with them?
Well, is that good? 

764
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:39,200
Is that what good looks like? 
I've got no idea. 

765
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,400
I've never worked with them 
before. 

766
00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:44,200
So a lot of our effort went into
the Matrix organization and 

767
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,300
getting all of that contracted 
And stood up so that was another

768
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:51,300
challenge and definitely an area
think you know bigger businesses

769
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:53,700
you need to focus on. 
Are you won't be successful? 

770
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,200
I think we can't pretend right? 
That change reluctance. 

771
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,600
Are we call it change fatigue. 
You know, we're not transforming

772
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,100
a stable business, but one 
that's transforming and growing 

773
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:10,900
rapidly and there's a lot of 
change hitting the teams. 

774
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,300
So the teams are out there 
trying to do their jobs, trying 

775
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,800
to serve our customers 
fantastically and, and, you 

776
00:40:15,808 --> 00:40:17,900
know, we got feedback that they 
were fill out every week or 

777
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,900
every day, there was another 
change coming and it kind of led

778
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,700
to fatigue. 
So, you know, we've had to do a 

779
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:26,100
lot of work to prioritize and 
group. 

780
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,800
Our new ways of working on the, 
to arrive release Cycles. 

781
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,700
We don't drop to them every day,
or every week, we may be 

782
00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:33,800
dropped. 
And less frequently but in a 

783
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,400
more controlled way. 
So they're actually ready to 

784
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,800
consume and absorb it be 
properly trained you know in 

785
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,400
different things at the same 
time so they can work in those 

786
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,500
new ways. 
So you know, we often forget Ops

787
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,800
forget how it feels to be 
constantly receiving change. 

788
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,600
So we really pivoted and focused
on that. 

789
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,000
I think if I didn't bring this 
one up, it would be, it wouldn't

790
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,200
be good, but this is something. 
I know that all pmo's struggle 

791
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:07,000
with it will only work if our 
project managers adopt the new 

792
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,100
ways of working, you know, and I
project managers are so busy 

793
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:12,400
delivering projects that at 
times. 

794
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,200
They know they were almost quite
reluctant themselves to receive 

795
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,800
that change. 
You know, I don't need to work 

796
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,300
to a standardized way of 
working. 

797
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,300
Don't need you to give me these 
new templates, I know what I'm 

798
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:24,200
doing. 
That was a pretty A tough one to

799
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,900
crack. 
And if I kind of fast forward 

800
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,600
through lots of different 
solutions in attempts, we 

801
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,200
ultimately brought those 
stakeholders into our gold user 

802
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,200
group, we create a framework and
give it to them. 

803
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:39,100
These gold users were empowered 
to co-create the framework with 

804
00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:42,600
us. 
So they then helped us test it. 

805
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,600
They helped us improve it. 
And then they became coaches for

806
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,400
are less experienced p.m. so, 
actually, they felt they owned 

807
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:49,700
it. 
They felt it was their 

808
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:51,800
framework, helping them do a 
better job. 

809
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,300
Not something that p.m. 
I was In the Muse. 

810
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,400
So you had always really 
championed cook creating and 

811
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,900
sometimes those people that are 
very loud or very obnoxious, or 

812
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:06,500
the ones that are the real 
blockers, get them inside, find 

813
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:08,900
a way to bring them on the 
inside and put them in those 

814
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,800
user groups, if you can, because
then they'll be loud on the 

815
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,100
shouting about what you're doing
as well and getting that buy-in.

816
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,900
Now one destroys what one helps 
to build. 

817
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,800
There we go. 
There we go. 

818
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,700
And I think this was not my last
one, so I could go on all day, 

819
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:27,000
but it's For me, it's about the 
hero mentality. 

820
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,900
I don't know about other people,
but in all the businesses I've 

821
00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:35,200
worked in, I find that some 
people thrive on chaos, people 

822
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,300
love saving the day. 
They love it. 

823
00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:40,000
When something goes wrong, you 
know, because they can fix it. 

824
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,900
And sometimes as businesses, we 
reward those Heroes who saved 

825
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:46,700
the day, we put them on a 
pedestal, you know it. 

826
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:48,100
Oh my God. 
You've done amazing. 

827
00:42:48,100 --> 00:42:49,700
You've solved. 
This massive problem. 

828
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,400
And that is brilliant. 
We need those people in every 

829
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,900
business. 
But actually, sometimes I think 

830
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:58,100
we forget to focus on the teams 
who are just doing the right 

831
00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:02,700
thing every time, so it doesn't 
go wrong and doesn't need fixing

832
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:07,000
now, behavioral change is really
tough but really we've tried to 

833
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Pivot to celebrating the 
successes of people doing the 

834
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,500
right thing every time, not 
focusing on the heroes after 

835
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:16,600
something has broken. 
And it's that switch from 

836
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:19,400
reacting to things to being 
proactive. 

837
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,400
So, that's a big one that, you 
know, hopefully gives people a 

838
00:43:22,408 --> 00:43:24,900
bit of food for thought To see 
if that's something that they do

839
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:27,200
in their businesses. 
But who are those silent people?

840
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,500
Just doing it perfectly every 
time we shout them out. 

841
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:34,200
Yeah, that's really cool. 
And um, and all kind of 

842
00:43:34,207 --> 00:43:38,400
professional social media. 
My my name if you like, is pmo 

843
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,900
ninjas and I've always said that
that a good pmo actually is like

844
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,100
a ninja sitting in the 
background playing in the 

845
00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:47,000
shadows making everybody else 
look good. 

846
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:54,400
So yeah I can totally relate to 
that that and For me that's one 

847
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,300
of the that's one of the 
switches that I've seen in the 

848
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:59,800
industry from pmo's kind of 
sitting in their Ivory Tower 

849
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,900
saying I'm the pmo. 
So people will do what I say to 

850
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,200
that much more of a servant 
leader approach and kind of 

851
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,200
being more willing to sit in the
background and make sure that 

852
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,200
we're enabling everything else 
to happen around as and not feel

853
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,500
like we have to get the praise 
every time. 

854
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,900
I think that that's definitely 
an industry shift that I've seen

855
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:22,500
since I've been involved. 
So having said all of that, 

856
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:23,800
what? 
Advice. 

857
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,600
Do you have for pmos if they 
want to remain current people 

858
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,500
that might be listening to? 
This might be like, oh, that all

859
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:32,200
sounds great. 
But I'd like to some practical 

860
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,400
advice, please. 
What would your advice be? 

861
00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:41,300
Maybe not the advice you were 
expecting but this is advice and

862
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:44,200
I've given myself recently, so, 
you know, winning the RPM of the

863
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,700
Year. 
Award is actually really made me

864
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:50,700
wake up if I'm honest. 
And, you know, sometimes I sit 

865
00:44:50,700 --> 00:44:53,900
within a bit of an internal 
Cocoon of Upper Egypt and before

866
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:57,300
that, you know, in my last 
transformation role and I 

867
00:44:57,308 --> 00:45:00,300
stopped working with external 
customers three or four years 

868
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:03,400
ago. 
And and actually winning the 

869
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,200
award. 
It's opened up so many doors. 

870
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,800
So this interview, Emma speaking
to you, you know that the house 

871
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,500
appear more conference and that 
I'm going to do and you're 

872
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:13,400
willing to learn conference 
later in the year. 

873
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,500
And you know I've received a few
Network and invites and online 

874
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:18,100
courses. 
I've been asked to go on our to 

875
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:21,700
come to talk to people and 
actually met fifteen PM, or 

876
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:24,600
colleagues from other companies 
on a PVP or training class last 

877
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,500
week and every one of these 
engagements as has taught me, 

878
00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:32,600
something and it's given me 
ideas or Food for thought. 

879
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:35,500
So, rather than like, my roadmap
is, what I think we need to do 

880
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:38,900
next. 
And by Network, and it's given 

881
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,400
me so many more ideas. 
I don't even have time to kind 

882
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,200
of collect them and think, what 
I'm going to do with them. 

883
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,900
But for me, it's all about 
networking listening to other 

884
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:49,800
people, talking to other people 
and, you know, not thinking. 

885
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,800
I know, I know everything. 
So yeah. 

886
00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:54,800
My advice honestly, is to 
network. 

887
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,200
There's a World opened up for 
me. 

888
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:01,300
I did not know, was there in pmo
and, and it's just, it's just 

889
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,100
I'm brilliant. 
There, just isn't enough days in

890
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:05,800
hours in the day or two to get 
involved with everything that 

891
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:06,700
I'd like to. 
So, yeah. 

892
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:08,600
Just Network. 
I think just share experiences. 

893
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,000
That's how you learn best, but 
back to that work-life balance, 

894
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,600
right from the start with goes 
all the way around. 

895
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,900
So, last question, if you had a 
time machine and you could go 

896
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:22,000
back in time and give yourself 
some advice before you started 

897
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,600
your pmo journey, what would 
that advice be I think if we 

898
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,500
peel back the layers of the 
onion, ultimately it all boils 

899
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:34,700
down to sponsorship. 
Does not how great you are, what

900
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,500
you do. 
A good sponsor will make or 

901
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:40,200
break whether you are 
successful. 

902
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:43,900
And to me there's a little bit 
about Gutfeld involved with 

903
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:47,800
this. 
I think we can often be driven 

904
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,800
by Peoples words but to me words
tell you what they want you to 

905
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,600
think and actions tell you what 
they actually think. 

906
00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:02,300
So take the time ask around and 
find the right fit for you and 

907
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:05,300
where you think you could make 
the biggest difference and 

908
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:08,800
therefore be the happiest. 
So spend time making sure that 

909
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,500
you've got that sponsorship 
before you take any any new 

910
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:17,500
rule. 
I think the second bit of 

911
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:20,300
advice, I'd give myself and if 
I'm honest I probably need to do

912
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:22,100
this a little bit more because I
think when we introduced 

913
00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:24,300
ourselves to each other and we 
both said, oh I'm a project 

914
00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:27,100
manager and a project manager 
like I should be a little bit 

915
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:31,400
more proud to be pmo because if 
I don't Champion what we do, no 

916
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,600
one else will. 
So you know, I think in our job,

917
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,200
we often focus on the negatives,
the things that have gone wrong 

918
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,200
and we can apply that to 
ourselves sometimes and say, oh 

919
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,000
we're not good enough, we need 
to be better but no, I think we 

920
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,100
should try. 
And they really, really proud to

921
00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:49,900
be a pmo to be a modern ninja as
you call it, Emma, and and 

922
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,600
Champion ourselves so that then 
we're help to change the 

923
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:53,900
perception. 
Otherwise we're never going to 

924
00:47:53,908 --> 00:47:58,000
do that. 
But ultimately to look after 

925
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,900
yourself, you need to get a good
Mentor. 

926
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:05,400
You need to get a good support 
network, surround yourself with 

927
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,200
brilliant coaches. 
This is not the easiest job, you

928
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,300
need resilience, right? 
And I'm good at what I do 

929
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:16,800
because I care But when you care
about something, it can be 

930
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,400
really, really hard to take the 
knocks. 

931
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:21,400
You know, and I really 
personally struggle with this. 

932
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:25,400
And and that's the part. 
I've got, I've got two brilliant

933
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,800
mentors, a couple of coaches, 
and I'm just surrounded by 

934
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,900
phenomenal people. 
I've worked with over the years.

935
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,800
That's the part keeps me going. 
So then I can can in turn keep 

936
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,800
my team going. 
So, always surround yourself 

937
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,000
with with good people and so 
that, so that you can look after

938
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,100
your team and be successful. 
I think that's that is amazing 

939
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:49,300
advice that if we could all go 
back in time would serve most of

940
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:51,400
us at some point in our careers,
for sure. 

941
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:55,700
Well, one last thing to say and 
that's thank you Katherine, for 

942
00:48:55,700 --> 00:48:59,400
taking the time to support the 
pmo Sig and the APM podcast, 

943
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:01,100
helping us reach out to our 
members. 

944
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:04,800
So they're able to really learn 
from your experience relate to 

945
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,100
the reality of pmo. 
The good, the bad, the ugly, as 

946
00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:11,600
well as the amazing winds that 
you guys have had. 

947
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,700
So to finish, I will say if you 
want to know more about the pmo 

948
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:18,900
specific interest group, you can
search for a PM PM o Sig on the 

949
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:22,500
web on LinkedIn or on Twitter or
you can contact me directly by 

950
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:24,900
searching for pmo ninjas. 
Thank you for listening. 

951
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,400
Thanks to Emma Ruth and 
Catherine for taking time out to

952
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,700
join the APM podcast for this 
discussion and thanks to you for

953
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:39,400
listening. 
For more information on open, 

954
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,500
reaches p.m. 
Oh, look out for the spring 

955
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:45,300
edition of apm's project Journal
out in March, which includes a 

956
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:47,900
feature on Project professionals
as changemakers. 

957
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:52,000
If you've got any comments 
feedback or suggestions please 

958
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,100
do get in touch. 
If you're listening on Spotify, 

959
00:49:55,500 --> 00:49:58,500
scroll down on your device. 
Now to answer our listener poll 

960
00:49:58,900 --> 00:50:01,100
where we ask, what kind of 
content you would like to see 

961
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:04,800
more of on the APM podcast, but 
poll is open till the end of 

962
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,400
February 2023. 
If you're not listening on 

963
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,700
Spotify you can still get in 
touch email, a p.m. podcast at 

964
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:15,400
think publishing .co.uk with 
your feedback. 

965
00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:18,800
We're particularly Keen to know 
what kind of content you want us

966
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,800
to cover in 2023. 
Whether that's Career 

967
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,500
Development tips, more 
interviews with inspiring 

968
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:26,900
project leaders or something 
else entirely. 

969
00:50:28,100 --> 00:50:31,100
This podcast has been brought to
you by a p.m. for more 

970
00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:32,700
information. 
Visit a p.m. 

971
00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:34,200
Dot org.uk