1 00:00:08,540 --> 00:00:11,950 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,930 the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm 3 00:00:14,940 --> 00:00:18,450 the editor of Project APM's Quarterly Journal and your host. 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,510 In this podcast, I'm speaking to Steve Gilligan, A programme 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,330 manager who's playing a critical role in the world's first 6 00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:28,080 decommissioning of a nuclear fusion machine. 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,910 He works in Column Campus, just outside. 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,260 Oxford, which is home. To the joint European. 9 00:00:33,270 --> 00:00:36,460 Torus or Jet A. Tokamak machine where some of. 10 00:00:36,470 --> 00:00:38,470 The world's most? Important nuclear fusion 11 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:42,290 experiments taken place, astoundingly the machine. 12 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:44,670 Has housed the hottest. Temperatures in the solar 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,170 system. Yes, even hotter than the sun, 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,810 and has proven that nuclear fusion, as opposed to fission, 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,210 is a viable, sustainable and reliable energy source. 16 00:00:54,860 --> 00:00:58,470 But now jets days are over and Gilligan is tasked with taking 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,810 apart and reusing and retrieving valuable resources from the 18 00:01:01,820 --> 00:01:05,069 tokamak. Using robots through remote 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,370 handling is a key part. Of his focus. 20 00:01:08,030 --> 00:01:10,940 Steve talked to me about what it's like working on such an 21 00:01:10,950 --> 00:01:13,060 exciting and world leading project. 22 00:01:13,110 --> 00:01:15,860 While humour is key when it comes to high risk project 23 00:01:15,870 --> 00:01:19,260 management environments and why it's always worth celebrating 24 00:01:19,270 --> 00:01:22,600 those project milestones. Ohh, and if you're interested in 25 00:01:22,610 --> 00:01:25,280 finding out more, read our in-depth look at Jet and the 26 00:01:25,290 --> 00:01:29,140 decommissioning programme in the Spring 2024 issue of Projects. 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,150 Thanks, Steve. Thanks for joining us on the APM 28 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,630 podcast. Would you mind giving us a very 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,320 brief history of Jet and also the decommissioning programme 30 00:01:46,330 --> 00:01:48,100 and where you are with that right now? 31 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,150 So if if you're not familiar with Jack, Jack stands for Joint 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,830 European Tourists. It's a large scale fusion 33 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:03,390 reactor socially known as a tokamak, which is a Russian word 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,770 that describes the the type of machine, which is basically a 35 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:12,490 design that uses very powerful magnetic fields to confine a 36 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:15,830 plasma. The machine is in the shape of a 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:21,690 doughnut with all the auxiliary systems around it and it uses 38 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:25,170 mostly deuterium and tritium as fuels. 39 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:32,520 The jet design was actually initiated in 1969 after visit by 40 00:02:32,610 --> 00:02:37,620 UK based scientists to visit a machine in in Russia and they 41 00:02:37,630 --> 00:02:40,900 realised that the tokamak was was likely to be very 42 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:45,040 successful. And then in 1977 Cullum was 43 00:02:45,050 --> 00:02:49,340 chosen as the host site for a European machine. 44 00:02:49,470 --> 00:02:56,400 So since 1977 the the the machine was constructed and it 45 00:02:56,410 --> 00:03:01,580 actually only took them six years to to build the facility 46 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:06,220 with with the machine and to get to what is called the first 47 00:03:06,230 --> 00:03:11,600 plasma. So six years from 77 to 1983, 48 00:03:11,910 --> 00:03:15,660 JET was the first machine to achieve controlled fusion. 49 00:03:15,670 --> 00:03:19,200 And when it's running and the maximum temperature, it goes up 50 00:03:19,210 --> 00:03:26,500 to 150 million°C, which at one point made to get the the 51 00:03:26,510 --> 00:03:28,630 hottest point in the solar system. 52 00:03:29,530 --> 00:03:32,280 It's quite a machine. Hotter than the sun. 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,670 It's it's it's mind boggling really. 54 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:43,950 The first time I saw the machine in Think it's 2003, I just 55 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,600 thought, this is, this is the stuff of Mad Men. 56 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:50,440 Who who came up with this? It's it's it's worked. 57 00:03:50,450 --> 00:03:55,980 It's been operating since 1983. It's been through a number of 58 00:03:55,990 --> 00:03:59,300 refurbishments and upgrades to improve the capability to 59 00:03:59,310 --> 00:04:03,080 perform more science. It's set several world records. 60 00:04:04,170 --> 00:04:08,380 So yeah, it's it's achieved through the science campaigns 61 00:04:08,390 --> 00:04:12,790 what it was set out to achieve and actually much more and it's 62 00:04:12,850 --> 00:04:15,300 it's paved the way for for future fusion. 63 00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:18,149 So it's a very exciting machine to be working with. 64 00:04:18,910 --> 00:04:24,260 So how does JET fit in with global research into fusion, and 65 00:04:24,270 --> 00:04:29,320 why has that been so important? Just as a as a design for for a 66 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:32,040 number of reasons sets sets of benchmark. 67 00:04:32,110 --> 00:04:35,300 It's it's been used progressively over the years to 68 00:04:35,310 --> 00:04:43,020 prove magnetic confinement, the heating systems, the emissions, 69 00:04:43,030 --> 00:04:47,200 how you would monitor and control and machine, a future 70 00:04:47,210 --> 00:04:52,580 fusion device and a lot of other machines that are in the 71 00:04:52,590 --> 00:04:56,300 pipeline are based on jet design in various forms. 72 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,510 So for example, the it's a machine that's being built at 73 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,430 Cadarache in the South of France. 74 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:07,690 There's a huge international collaboration, it involves 75 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:11,570 governments that represent half of the world's population to 76 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:15,250 build this fusion reactor in the South of France that is, is 77 00:05:15,260 --> 00:05:20,090 based on a lot of what's been learned at JET and even as we 78 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:23,660 now head into the decommissioning phase for JET, 79 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:27,270 JET isn't finished, it's just entering another phase. 80 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:33,930 So it's a in France the STEP device which is a UK design 81 00:05:34,380 --> 00:05:40,080 being built that W Burton they're all learning from the 82 00:05:40,090 --> 00:05:44,160 history of jet over the last 40 years of operation and they'll 83 00:05:44,170 --> 00:05:47,500 continue to learn as we decommission JET. 84 00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:51,880 What does if? What has it felt like to be 85 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:56,200 working there, working with the team, knowing how important this 86 00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:58,720 work has been and is? Is that part of the reason that 87 00:05:58,730 --> 00:06:06,020 drew you to to to work at Jet? Yeah, I I actually first came to 88 00:06:06,170 --> 00:06:11,980 to column in 2003. At that time we were just 89 00:06:11,990 --> 00:06:15,570 preparing for what was called the enhanced performance 90 00:06:15,580 --> 00:06:20,050 shutdown and and this was to do a major upgrade of the the Jet 91 00:06:20,060 --> 00:06:25,460 machine that took fourteen months and that was working in 92 00:06:25,470 --> 00:06:28,840 the the remote handling team And it was it was incredibly 93 00:06:28,850 --> 00:06:33,590 exciting because the the the scale of the machine and the 94 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,900 remote handling that we actually do here on site is world class. 95 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,930 So it was really good being involved in that And then since 96 00:06:41,940 --> 00:06:46,530 2003 I've had various roles where I've been involved in 97 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,650 other shutdowns and then I spent eight years at Itza in the South 98 00:06:50,660 --> 00:06:55,600 of France in the construction management team and then came 99 00:06:55,610 --> 00:07:01,310 back to column in in 2016. It's it's always had a draw and 100 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,610 and being based here at Callum with what happens not just in 101 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:09,550 Jet but other programmes and projects that we've got on site, 102 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:13,990 all all of it is really cutting edge and exciting to be involved 103 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,030 in this. There's a lot of day that's 104 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:18,390 that's boring. There's there's always a new 105 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,640 challenge so it's always good motivators to come on site and 106 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:25,120 and and try and make Fusion successful. 107 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:30,890 How important is fusion to kind of global energy production and 108 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:34,420 and the climate crisis just for people who don't might not 109 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:38,330 necessarily be aware of nuclear fusion and its potential? 110 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:45,590 Fusion has a huge potential to be another source of energy. 111 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:49,010 We we know that we've got solar, We know that we've got wind 112 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:53,350 turbines. There's various opportunities to 113 00:07:53,410 --> 00:07:58,490 to harness tidal power. We have nuclear fission, nuclear 114 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:01,690 fusion along with these other sources of energy. 115 00:08:01,750 --> 00:08:05,400 They all have a role to play at some some extent. 116 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:11,500 But nuclear fusion is is is incredibly important because it 117 00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:16,780 is inherently much safer than fission and the byproducts in 118 00:08:16,790 --> 00:08:22,780 terms of the the fuel that's required and the the waste 119 00:08:22,790 --> 00:08:28,420 products is is much reduced. So for example, with with with 120 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:34,169 jets, the the last record that it set was in in 2023 in in the 121 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:40,390 last science campaign and that created 69 megajoules of energy. 122 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,130 So we had a sustained fusion reaction for five seconds. 123 00:08:45,620 --> 00:08:49,310 But that only used 0.2 milligrammes of fuel. 124 00:08:49,690 --> 00:08:55,410 So that is a minuscule amount of fuel compared to being able to 125 00:08:55,420 --> 00:08:58,040 generate that amount of power from other sources. 126 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,390 So from a sustainability point of view, fusion is, is very 127 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,390 important unlike say it gives another, it's another 128 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,090 opportunity and it's an opportunity that we should seize 129 00:09:10,180 --> 00:09:15,210 in order that we have a balanced supply of energy and we don't 130 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:18,450 put all of our our hopes in one solution. 131 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:20,930 We need the options going forward. 132 00:09:21,690 --> 00:09:23,700 You're in the decommissioning phase. 133 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:28,170 I'll talk about that in a SEC. But do is it very much you're 134 00:09:28,180 --> 00:09:32,230 handing the baton over to step and to eat her in France with 135 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,730 with the work that's been done at column. 136 00:09:35,790 --> 00:09:39,490 Yeah, in in terms of the science, a lot of what's being 137 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:45,250 learned, the engineers and operators that have worked on on 138 00:09:45,260 --> 00:09:49,000 chat over the last decades have now moved on to to other 139 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:57,770 projects and Steph is is 1. We also have another device on 140 00:09:57,780 --> 00:10:02,750 site called MAST, which is the Mega Amp spherical tokamak, 141 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,180 which is a smaller machine, but that's also been very successful 142 00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:11,710 UK project. So the the workforce has sort of 143 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:17,100 diversified and it's getting involved in other projects all 144 00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:20,890 leading towards fusion as a future energy supply. 145 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:25,010 You know, the big question is how close are we, how close 146 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:27,470 could we be to to achieving that? 147 00:10:28,820 --> 00:10:30,990 So a lot of, a lot of people laugh. 148 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,210 Fusion is always in the future. I don't think that we've ever 149 00:10:35,220 --> 00:10:37,810 been closer to fusion than we are now. 150 00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:43,990 Jet has proven that a fusion reaction is is viable and it's 151 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,750 sustainable. ITER in France will prove that 152 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,110 you can get more energy out of the machine that you put in. 153 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:59,930 So it will become commercially viable and step as a UK based 154 00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:05,410 project at West Burton as part of UKAA will prove that it's 155 00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:10,190 commercially viable and will build the first commercial 156 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:15,310 reactor here in the UK. So I think we're we're very 157 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:21,230 close and the the closeness of proving fusion as an energy 158 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:27,850 source and the the importance that is being given to it by by 159 00:11:27,860 --> 00:11:32,740 UK and international government is, is also why there is so much 160 00:11:32,750 --> 00:11:37,500 investment. So over the last 10 or so years 161 00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:41,620 there have been a lot of private fusion companies that have been 162 00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:46,200 established and they're all working on on various schemes. 163 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:49,710 A lot of them are based on on what's been proven at at Jet. 164 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,590 And so yeah, the investment and the interest is there because 165 00:11:54,650 --> 00:11:57,650 there is a, there is a motivation we've we've got to 166 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:00,990 make fusion work and it's getting closer. 167 00:12:01,940 --> 00:12:05,830 This is hugely exciting, a hugely important project and now 168 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:10,010 it's being decommissioned, which is also a a world first. 169 00:12:10,380 --> 00:12:14,050 So could you tell us a bit about the decommissioning programme? 170 00:12:14,060 --> 00:12:16,570 I know it's only just begun and also. 171 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:19,250 Your. Role so you're head of jet 172 00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:24,870 decommissioning and handling, so how does your role fit in within 173 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,790 that programme of decommissioning and and what are 174 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,390 you responsible for? So as as Head of Decommissioning 175 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,430 and Handling, I'm responsible for the commissioning and 176 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,680 handling as basically the the talk blackened all of the 177 00:12:40,690 --> 00:12:44,720 auxiliary systems. So the the the jet machine is is 178 00:12:44,730 --> 00:12:48,310 distributed or the jet facility is distributed across a number 179 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,340 of connected buildings. The the the machine itself is in 180 00:12:52,350 --> 00:12:57,520 a concrete bioshield where access is very much restricted 181 00:12:57,630 --> 00:13:00,990 and then systems branch out into other facilities. 182 00:13:01,740 --> 00:13:07,170 So what my team is is working on is the effectively the design 183 00:13:07,180 --> 00:13:10,860 for how we will decommission the the jet machine. 184 00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:14,700 So we're having to work out firstly how it went together, 185 00:13:15,010 --> 00:13:20,340 considering that at the time it was mostly done through through 186 00:13:20,350 --> 00:13:23,620 paper documents rather than electronic files. 187 00:13:23,690 --> 00:13:27,530 Have you still got those paper? Documents, Yeah, definitely we 188 00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:29,250 do. But we're we're trying to work 189 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:33,400 through archive, so we've got industrial archaeology going on 190 00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:36,910 to work out. Machine went together. 191 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,450 Is anyone sit around who worked on that? 192 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:42,480 Yeah, we are. We are quite fortunate that we 193 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:46,360 have reached back to a number of engineers who are involved in 194 00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:50,410 the early days and and also as as part of the the jet 195 00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:55,270 decommissioning programme we've we've actually on boarded a lot 196 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,570 of engineers who were involved in the operation of the machine. 197 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,040 So there's a lot of knowledge, personal knowledge that we've 198 00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:04,750 we've taken on board as part of the team. 199 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:06,840 So you haven't gone back to Russian too much? 200 00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:12,410 No, no, not so we're we're having to go through this 201 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:16,790 industrial archaeology to reverse engineer the the machine 202 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,500 to work out how to take it apart and then in in doing so we're 203 00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:26,380 having to schedule all the work The the decommissioning will be 204 00:14:26,390 --> 00:14:30,430 done under CDM construction design and management 205 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,720 regulations as well as ionising radiation regs and so on. 206 00:14:36,390 --> 00:14:39,500 So we're having to work out how to decommission the machine 207 00:14:39,510 --> 00:14:44,440 safely, not all of our contracting strategy, new 208 00:14:44,450 --> 00:14:47,990 capabilities that are needed because as part of 209 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,830 decommissioning we we don't just want to take the machine apart 210 00:14:52,530 --> 00:14:57,890 and dispose of hundreds of thousands of tonnes of material 211 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:01,520 as as waste. What we're trying to do is in 212 00:15:01,530 --> 00:15:06,980 intelligence being applied to decommission the machine so that 213 00:15:06,990 --> 00:15:10,520 we repurpose as much of the equipment as possible. 214 00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:15,580 So you know we want to to use some of the equipment for future 215 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:19,890 science experiments on site or with other collaborators in 216 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:22,320 Europe. We want to recycle the material 217 00:15:22,330 --> 00:15:26,130 so they go back into the supply chain and we also want to 218 00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:30,570 recover as much of the the tritium that the fuel as we can 219 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:34,430 because it's not waste, it's it's a fuel, it can be used in 220 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,520 future devices. So we're trying to to do you 221 00:15:38,530 --> 00:15:43,090 know apply an intelligent approach to decommission the the 222 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,750 machine. And in doing so, we've we've got 223 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,050 connections with for example, the Nuclear Decommissioning 224 00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:53,610 Authority because we're using this site as a lead and learn. 225 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,570 So am I right in thinking that a decommissioning of a tokamak at 226 00:15:57,580 --> 00:16:00,290 this scale has never been done before? 227 00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:05,730 No, nobody has decommissioned facility on the size of jet 228 00:16:05,740 --> 00:16:10,350 before for for fusion. It's not only the first of a 229 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,270 kind project, it's it's also the only project of its type that we 230 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,550 will we will have the opportunity to to learn from in 231 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,620 the next 20 or or more years. So it's the timing of it. 232 00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:28,150 It's really important because it can feed into the design for 233 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,460 it's a first step and so on. So there's a lot of interest 234 00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:36,520 growing about what can be learned from decommissioning jet 235 00:16:36,530 --> 00:16:40,230 because it will help with the design of of the next 236 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,850 generation. How does that make you feel, 237 00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:46,080 personally, To work on the project, on something no one's 238 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:48,070 ever done before? Is it exciting? 239 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,010 Daunting. Terrifying. 240 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,310 I don't wake up every morning thinking I'm going to change the 241 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,330 world. It's a job, It's a really 242 00:16:57,340 --> 00:17:01,820 exciting job and the people that I get to work with are really 243 00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:04,589 intelligent and and really motivated. 244 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,339 I guess it's only when you sort of step, step back when we've 245 00:17:08,349 --> 00:17:12,109 achieved a major milestone that you think, yeah, that that was 246 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,270 really good. We've made a difference here, 247 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:18,460 but otherwise, you know, I'm sure a lot of listeners will 248 00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:20,619 answer you. You sort of get into the day job 249 00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:23,900 where you're you're constantly churning through the problems, 250 00:17:23,910 --> 00:17:26,020 trying to find solutions and so on. 251 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,780 It's only when you sort of step back that you think, yeah, hold 252 00:17:29,790 --> 00:17:34,580 on, this is you can tend to lose sight of the of the bigger, the 253 00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:37,450 bigger picture. In terms of project management, 254 00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:40,910 what have been the biggest challenges that that you kind of 255 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,410 face in in the in the job at the moment? 256 00:17:44,370 --> 00:17:48,240 Because this this is a first of a kind project, we're also 257 00:17:48,250 --> 00:17:52,160 applying first of the kind technology, so I mentioned 258 00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:58,540 remote handling earlier. So since the mid 1980s Jack has 259 00:17:58,550 --> 00:18:04,130 had a a large scale remote handling system where we use 260 00:18:04,730 --> 00:18:07,830 dextrous manipulators. Do you mean robots? 261 00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:15,040 Thoughts within the machine and that's been a proven system 262 00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:20,800 we've already operated for about 60,000 hours since the since the 263 00:18:20,810 --> 00:18:25,270 machine was the remote handling system became operational. 264 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,290 But the amount of remote handling that we will do in 265 00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:36,490 inject to decommission it is, is going to be a of a larger scale. 266 00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:39,600 And in doing so we're also developing a lot of new 267 00:18:39,610 --> 00:18:43,040 technologies. So for example we're going to be 268 00:18:43,050 --> 00:18:47,310 deploying large scale cutting devices into the machine with 269 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:53,030 sort of metre diameter circular saws deployed robotically to cut 270 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,960 up copper coils. We've got laser cutting, We're 271 00:18:56,970 --> 00:19:01,570 going to be using a very high power laser to cut steel away 272 00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:04,870 and this hasn't been done before, not on the scale that 273 00:19:04,930 --> 00:19:08,910 that we're looking at in jets. And so I remember when I came on 274 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,190 site the the those a replica of the tokamak where they were 275 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,260 using some of the remote handling on that. 276 00:19:16,270 --> 00:19:18,950 Is that Is that how you learn how to do it before you actually 277 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,650 go in? And how important is that? 278 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,070 Yeah. So we we have a a full scale 279 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:28,830 test facility so that when the remote handling system isn't 280 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,130 operating on the JET machine itself, the operators can 281 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:37,230 develop their their tasks and do training, document their 282 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,570 procedures, their safe system of work. 283 00:19:40,210 --> 00:19:45,720 So we always go through a very thorough process of performing 284 00:19:45,730 --> 00:19:50,940 trials in in a virtual reality system before we then do task 285 00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:55,840 training trials and then once everything is proven we we then 286 00:19:55,850 --> 00:20:00,060 deploy and and do the task inside the the the vessel. 287 00:20:00,350 --> 00:20:03,040 So that's a major piece of work that we'll be doing over the 288 00:20:03,050 --> 00:20:07,990 next 5 or so years. We're a PM, the only chartered 289 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,540 membership organisation for the project profession. 290 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,250 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 291 00:20:14,260 --> 00:20:17,030 support you need to make an impact delivering better 292 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,670 projects with better outcomes. Plus you'll access exclusive 293 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,280 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 294 00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:27,570 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 295 00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:32,820 apm.org.uk, Because when projects succeed, society 296 00:20:32,830 --> 00:20:39,110 benefits. Could you give listeners a 297 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,320 description of the tokamak if you, I mean that's it's quite 298 00:20:42,330 --> 00:20:45,830 hard to do, but could you give them an idea of what it actually 299 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:52,350 looks like and how big it is? OK, so if you were to imagine a 300 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,710 a a doughnut with a with a hole in the middle, that's that's 301 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,310 what the tokamak is, is is a doughnut. 302 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,850 But instead of having the tasty pastry and so on inside, it's a. 303 00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:08,310 It's a vacuum chamber or vacuum vessel. 304 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,830 And what's it lined in? So it's a it's a vacuum vessel 305 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,830 with several layers which provide the containment for the 306 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,210 gases. It maintains a vacuum and it 307 00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:27,690 maintains the plasma. The the plasma is mentioned 308 00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:32,230 earlier, the the machine would get up to 150 million degrees. 309 00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:36,350 So you have to contain that plasma within what's called a 310 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:40,050 first wall. And that first wall comprises 311 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:46,330 tireless handles which are made out of fever perineum or carbon 312 00:21:46,340 --> 00:21:52,200 fibre composites or tungsten or tungsten coated carbon fibre 313 00:21:52,210 --> 00:21:58,850 composites and and those tiles are able to contain the plasma 314 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,630 in conjunction with the magnetic field. 315 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:06,020 So in theory the plasma shouldn't touch the tiles but 316 00:22:06,030 --> 00:22:09,810 they will constantly erode as the machine is operating. 317 00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:14,530 The the plasma is contained by magnetic fields which are 318 00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:18,950 arranged around all of the the sort of the the tokamak section 319 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,850 or if you took a slice through the the donut. 320 00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:29,800 When I went on site I I saw it from afar and I saw the replica 321 00:22:29,810 --> 00:22:32,360 where you used to test and train. 322 00:22:32,990 --> 00:22:36,260 But if you were to go into the tokamak, how long would it take 323 00:22:36,270 --> 00:22:38,450 you to to walk round it, do you think? 324 00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:43,350 Have you ever tried it? Have been inside the the the 325 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:48,090 machine and I think it was 2000 and and four previously 326 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:53,210 dependent on the the dose rate exposure to operators. 327 00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:58,130 We have been able to put personnel into the machine for 328 00:22:58,140 --> 00:23:01,810 for short duration tasks. You basically call crawl through 329 00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:06,270 a shoot into the machine through a horizontal port that's sort of 330 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:12,070 midway up the outer wall through an Abscess facility, and you 331 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,570 could do some tasks within the vessel. 332 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:20,530 But your entry is limited to to several hours and it's it really 333 00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:25,030 isn't a pleasant experience because you're wearing several 334 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,950 layers of undergarments within a a rubberized pressurised suit. 335 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,630 We've got breathing hoses and so on trailing behind you. 336 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,710 It makes a really interesting weight loss programme because 337 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:45,630 when you come out you can tip the suit and all of the the the 338 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,070 sweat pours out of it. But since then the machine has 339 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,030 become more and more activated and we've we've increased the 340 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:57,220 the, the operation. So the the reason that we're 341 00:23:57,270 --> 00:24:00,760 going to deploy remote handling systems going forward is that 342 00:24:00,770 --> 00:24:06,460 the predictions on the exposure to to operators is that to 343 00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:08,760 decommission the machine we wouldn't be able to put 344 00:24:08,770 --> 00:24:13,260 personnel in for 35 years since it stopped operating. 345 00:24:13,610 --> 00:24:19,240 So we we don't really want to have a very long care and 346 00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:21,780 maintenance period. What we want to do is 347 00:24:21,790 --> 00:24:25,780 decommission as quickly and as safely as we can and that means 348 00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:30,020 that we will use some remote handling and robotics wherever 349 00:24:30,090 --> 00:24:34,270 we we can justify the the investment. 350 00:24:35,010 --> 00:24:37,560 So I mean that's one of the challenges, right the the kind 351 00:24:37,570 --> 00:24:41,280 of technical technological side of things, what are the 352 00:24:41,290 --> 00:24:46,160 challenges exist like I guess the safety as well is is 353 00:24:46,170 --> 00:24:48,740 obviously a predominantly important. 354 00:24:48,790 --> 00:24:56,240 Yeah so jet jet isn't a licenced nuclear site but we have 355 00:24:56,310 --> 00:25:01,700 significant hazards. We we we have the radiation, we 356 00:25:01,710 --> 00:25:07,970 have tritium to the fuel that the off gases, the brilliant 357 00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:11,950 that's used within the machine is is highly toxic. 358 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,730 We have mercury and other materials on sites and fairly 359 00:25:15,740 --> 00:25:18,760 exotic materials that we can't handle. 360 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,470 And even now while we're in an engineering and planning phase 361 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,990 for some areas where we've actually just started to do the 362 00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:35,260 the first major decommissioning activity which is to to isolate 363 00:25:35,270 --> 00:25:39,070 and then remove all of the high voltage power supplies. 364 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:46,210 So even this in its in its own rights as a as a first activity 365 00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:52,290 it's it's 63 Transformers which are very large pieces of 366 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:56,370 equipment with with all the associated power cabling and 367 00:25:56,380 --> 00:26:00,710 control units and so on. And and there's 500,000 litres 368 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,470 of oil that we've got to try and recover from inside these 369 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,930 Transformers. So everything is is really large 370 00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:11,330 scale and you know there's this hazards associated with 371 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:14,570 everything we're doing which is why we're we're trying to take a 372 00:26:14,580 --> 00:26:18,780 very disciplined engineering and management approach to the work. 373 00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:23,550 Is this kind of massive problem solving part of what you relish 374 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,200 about the role? Yes, it is there. 375 00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:29,090 There's nothing on this site that you can say is just stand 376 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:32,630 alone and you can just deal with one thing The the power supplies 377 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,450 that I just mentioned, we're going to decommission 2 378 00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:38,790 facilities, but they're connected to another dozen 379 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,070 facilities. So we've got to work out how we 380 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,630 can bypass some of the power supplies and put additional 381 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,110 loops in while we're decommissioning others there. 382 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,960 There's nothing is is is simple about any of it. 383 00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:54,920 So every day there's a new challenge that we need to work 384 00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:57,010 out how we're going to overcome it. 385 00:26:57,210 --> 00:27:00,460 And that's that's part of the the excitement about being on a 386 00:27:00,470 --> 00:27:04,330 project like this. Do you have a particular project 387 00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:08,410 management approach when it comes to people on projects and 388 00:27:08,420 --> 00:27:11,170 is that something you find motivating to work with? 389 00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:15,610 I mean obviously such talented, interesting international 390 00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:22,070 experts. So yeah, I mean we we have a a 391 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,230 very broad mix of people on on on site. 392 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,230 We have quite a large international community because 393 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:35,670 that was a a European project and as as things have progressed 394 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,740 we've brought in a lot of international collaborators. 395 00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:47,450 We have a a a very motivated workforce and everybody who is 396 00:27:47,460 --> 00:27:51,840 here on site is everybody comes across as being motivated to 397 00:27:51,850 --> 00:27:56,190 help solve the Fusion challenge in in one form or another. 398 00:27:56,870 --> 00:28:01,720 And that is is is really good to work with with people. 399 00:28:01,730 --> 00:28:05,530 Because despite the challenges that we have, there's a lot of 400 00:28:05,540 --> 00:28:07,890 motivation to try and solve those challenges. 401 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:11,350 Even if people go above and beyond working in their own time 402 00:28:11,710 --> 00:28:15,610 to to think about problems and then bring them back into into 403 00:28:15,620 --> 00:28:20,240 the workplace. But in in terms of trying to to 404 00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:24,520 to manage this as well the the intelligent workforce and the 405 00:28:24,530 --> 00:28:27,640 high degree of enthusiasm also brings its own challenges. 406 00:28:27,650 --> 00:28:32,180 Because sometimes you need to ring people back in to say that 407 00:28:32,190 --> 00:28:36,380 that's great, but we don't need to worry about the the problem 408 00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:40,290 in in three years time today we need to focus on the problem 409 00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:42,040 that we've got today and tomorrow. 410 00:28:42,130 --> 00:28:47,460 So it's trying to bring things back to we've we've got a plan 411 00:28:47,530 --> 00:28:50,540 we know what we've got to deal with now but we'll park other 412 00:28:50,550 --> 00:28:52,530 things and deal with them in the future. 413 00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:59,180 So managing the workforces has is is really interesting because 414 00:28:59,390 --> 00:29:03,960 you know sometimes there can be an over motivation to to to 415 00:29:03,970 --> 00:29:06,350 succeed. Well, I guess that must be it. 416 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,180 I mean, there's probably people listening to thinking, I wish we 417 00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:14,200 had that problem, that's all. Nice problem to have, but it's 418 00:29:14,270 --> 00:29:18,470 it's generally a a pleasant environment and people are 419 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,240 motivated. Do you have a, I mean a 420 00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:22,900 particular approach to management? 421 00:29:22,910 --> 00:29:26,070 How do you manage the teams that you oversee? 422 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:33,430 I will be as direct as I need to be in terms of setting 423 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:39,440 priorities and and goals and and target dates. 424 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,390 Because I'm also an engineer as well as a programme manager. 425 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,460 I'll I'll help the engineering team and try and solve some of 426 00:29:47,470 --> 00:29:50,030 the problems that we have as we go through them. 427 00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:55,070 But once I've sort of set out what what the vision is, I am 428 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,630 very much reliant on a strong project controls team that we 429 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,790 have to to work through, develop the the detailed schedules to 430 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,000 achieve the the strategy or vision that's been set out and 431 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:13,180 then to to to help the team to deliver it once we've got that 432 00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:16,220 schedule and cost baseline in place. 433 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:18,780 But what I don't do is step back. 434 00:30:18,790 --> 00:30:22,970 I I still like to very much get involved in the detail and where 435 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:25,860 we have problems, try and help the team to solve them. 436 00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:29,060 So are you. You're very much a manager, 437 00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:32,700 project manager, who would be walking around the office just 438 00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:35,940 being part of the team. Yeah, Yeah. 439 00:30:35,950 --> 00:30:40,750 So I I work in a large open plan office. 440 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:48,990 My team is about 120 people of of which roughly half are within 441 00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:53,430 the building that I'm based in. But I I try and make sure that 442 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,270 I'm I'm always visible. I'm not shut away in an office 443 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,150 on my own. If if anybody wants to come and 444 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,530 talk through something I'm available or I'll walk over and 445 00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:06,990 just have a chat with people see how they're getting on with 446 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,010 different things. But yeah, I just try to make 447 00:31:10,020 --> 00:31:12,420 sure that I'm available and approachable. 448 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,810 Then you know that I'm part of the team and and also try and 449 00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:21,490 bring a bit of humour in into things as well because you know 450 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,480 we we are under some some pressure we have not job to do 451 00:31:25,490 --> 00:31:29,500 but it also needs to be an enjoyable place to work so that 452 00:31:29,510 --> 00:31:32,940 that's important that the team knows that I'm approachable and 453 00:31:33,530 --> 00:31:36,730 that there there has to be a a a bit of humour as well. 454 00:31:37,530 --> 00:31:42,430 No, and that's such interesting management advice because what's 455 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,640 instantly springing to mind is when I interviewed Bill Locks, 456 00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:51,060 who was the NASA programme manager and he he he told me how 457 00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:56,180 important humour was in these extremely, you know, highly 458 00:31:56,190 --> 00:32:00,120 pressurised projects where if something goes wrong it it's a 459 00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:03,780 really big deal. So humour is a a natural way to 460 00:32:03,790 --> 00:32:07,390 keep people, the team, functioning and people happy. 461 00:32:08,210 --> 00:32:10,480 It it is important, it is important. 462 00:32:10,490 --> 00:32:13,610 We're we're we're in a serious business We we are dealing with 463 00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:18,460 a high hazard environment but also now and again you just have 464 00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:21,390 to inject a bit of humour to take a little bit of pressure 465 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,320 off and and it also helps to to to form the team. 466 00:32:26,020 --> 00:32:28,780 An important question I want to ask you would be what have been 467 00:32:28,790 --> 00:32:32,030 the lessons around programming, project management that you've 468 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,820 learned working where you do now that perhaps you'd wish you 469 00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:42,090 could have told a younger self? Everything that I've done for 470 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:47,290 the last 20 or so years since I've been involved in in Fusion 471 00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:51,510 has has been first of a kind. No. 472 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,390 No matter how much you can try and relate a new project to 473 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,130 something that you've done before. 474 00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:02,880 Every project is different and I think it's important to learn 475 00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:07,250 that no matter how well you you think you've planned for work 476 00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:15,280 and how much you've divested energy into into risk management 477 00:33:15,290 --> 00:33:18,520 and and and so on and trying to make sure that you've got a good 478 00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:21,260 team. There are always things that are 479 00:33:21,270 --> 00:33:23,720 going to trip you up. So trying to really just make 480 00:33:23,730 --> 00:33:28,850 sure that you've you you've got enough contingency on a first of 481 00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:36,190 a kind project and that you're always transfer anticipate the 482 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,690 the risk occurring you you can never step back and say I've got 483 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:44,010 a plan on just delivering to the plan. 484 00:33:44,380 --> 00:33:48,550 You need to really keep looking ahead at what's going to 485 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,450 potentially trip you up in in a month's time, three months, 486 00:33:52,460 --> 00:33:57,000 time, six months, 12 months, and just keep anticipating the 487 00:33:57,010 --> 00:34:01,210 issues and make sure you've got enough contingency to to address 488 00:34:01,220 --> 00:34:04,920 those. Any other words of wisdom? 489 00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:10,489 Yeah, and enjoy projects. I think it's important you have. 490 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:14,070 You have to enjoy them. Don't take a project as just 491 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,110 being a a a day job. Projects can be can be very, 492 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,650 very enjoyable when you've got a team that's motivated and are 493 00:34:23,659 --> 00:34:25,510 all pulling in the same direction. 494 00:34:25,699 --> 00:34:28,190 What bit of a project do you enjoy the most? 495 00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:31,670 The party when it closes. So you've had. 496 00:34:32,909 --> 00:34:38,739 No, we've we've we've we've had a lot of successes along the way 497 00:34:39,250 --> 00:34:44,550 and I I think the the part that I've really, I really do enjoy 498 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,900 is when there's an opportunity to recognise what people have 499 00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:52,380 accomplished. Even even as as we've been 500 00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:56,389 developing the remote handling upgrades we've we we completed a 501 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,220 major development programme that took four years to to design 502 00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:04,960 this new control system and that that involved over 100 people 503 00:35:05,070 --> 00:35:09,430 working for a a long period, extended days and so on. 504 00:35:10,180 --> 00:35:15,670 And to be able to step back for for a day, organise a bit of a 505 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:20,190 an event for them and and to just socialise and give them the 506 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,980 recognition for having accomplished the a huge amount 507 00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:28,100 to to get to that point. And we hadn't finished at that 508 00:35:28,110 --> 00:35:32,340 point, but it was just an opportunity to so, so to say 509 00:35:32,350 --> 00:35:35,800 thank you to people for what they've done and I think that's 510 00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:39,450 important. Was there anything else you 511 00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:41,350 wanted to add? I did want to ask you whether 512 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,150 you had any interesting anecdotes from working that 513 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,160 you're able to share. What I would say is that you 514 00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:52,190 know colour column the the the site here where where Jack is 515 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,780 being hosted is, is is a great site there's there's a lot of 516 00:35:56,790 --> 00:36:01,400 interest in personalities there's a lot of passion about 517 00:36:01,410 --> 00:36:07,600 what what we do and so you know going forward Fusion is is an 518 00:36:07,610 --> 00:36:11,640 industry to to to watch. I think there are huge 519 00:36:11,650 --> 00:36:17,860 opportunities and it it will be a future viable energy source 520 00:36:18,130 --> 00:36:23,510 and I hope the the the listeners are are interested and we'll 521 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,210 we'll follow the progress of the of the decommissioning 522 00:36:26,220 --> 00:36:28,630 programme. Well, definitely we'd love to to 523 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,010 to to catch up with you regularly to see how things are 524 00:36:31,020 --> 00:36:33,790 going. So it just leaves me to say 525 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,820 thank you for your time and sharing your advice. 526 00:36:36,830 --> 00:36:38,730 Really appreciated. Thank you. 527 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,970 No problem at all. Thank you for inviting me to 528 00:36:41,980 --> 00:36:52,280 speak with you. Thanks again to Steve. 529 00:36:52,290 --> 00:36:54,740 For joining us and. To you for listening to the APM. 530 00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:56,700 Podcast. Don't forget to look. 531 00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:59,340 Out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever. 532 00:36:59,350 --> 00:37:02,350 You get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 533 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,240 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 534 00:37:06,330 --> 00:37:10,640 APM Podcast at Think Publishing. Dot co.uk. 535 00:37:11,330 --> 00:37:14,840 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, The Chartered Body 536 00:37:14,850 --> 00:37:18,520 for the project profession. For more information on a PM, 537 00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:20,990 visit APM. Dot org.uk.