Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm
the editor of Project APM's Quarterly Journal and your host.
In this podcast, I'm speaking to Steve Gilligan, A programme
manager who's playing a critical role in the world's first
decommissioning of a nuclear fusion machine.
He works in Column Campus, just outside.
Oxford, which is home. To the joint European.
Torus or Jet A. Tokamak machine where some of.
The world's most? Important nuclear fusion
experiments taken place, astoundingly the machine.
Has housed the hottest. Temperatures in the solar
system. Yes, even hotter than the sun,
and has proven that nuclear fusion, as opposed to fission,
is a viable, sustainable and reliable energy source.
But now jets days are over and Gilligan is tasked with taking
apart and reusing and retrieving valuable resources from the
tokamak. Using robots through remote
handling is a key part. Of his focus.
Steve talked to me about what it's like working on such an
exciting and world leading project.
While humour is key when it comes to high risk project
management environments and why it's always worth celebrating
those project milestones. Ohh, and if you're interested in
finding out more, read our in-depth look at Jet and the
decommissioning programme in the Spring 2024 issue of Projects.
Thanks, Steve. Thanks for joining us on the APM
podcast. Would you mind giving us a very
brief history of Jet and also the decommissioning programme
and where you are with that right now?
So if if you're not familiar with Jack, Jack stands for Joint
European Tourists. It's a large scale fusion
reactor socially known as a tokamak, which is a Russian word
that describes the the type of machine, which is basically a
design that uses very powerful magnetic fields to confine a
plasma. The machine is in the shape of a
doughnut with all the auxiliary systems around it and it uses
mostly deuterium and tritium as fuels.
The jet design was actually initiated in 1969 after visit by
UK based scientists to visit a machine in in Russia and they
realised that the tokamak was was likely to be very
successful. And then in 1977 Cullum was
chosen as the host site for a European machine.
So since 1977 the the the machine was constructed and it
actually only took them six years to to build the facility
with with the machine and to get to what is called the first
plasma. So six years from 77 to 1983,
JET was the first machine to achieve controlled fusion.
And when it's running and the maximum temperature, it goes up
to 150 million°C, which at one point made to get the the
hottest point in the solar system.
It's quite a machine. Hotter than the sun.
It's it's it's mind boggling really.
The first time I saw the machine in Think it's 2003, I just
thought, this is, this is the stuff of Mad Men.
Who who came up with this? It's it's it's worked.
It's been operating since 1983. It's been through a number of
refurbishments and upgrades to improve the capability to
perform more science. It's set several world records.
So yeah, it's it's achieved through the science campaigns
what it was set out to achieve and actually much more and it's
it's paved the way for for future fusion.
So it's a very exciting machine to be working with.
So how does JET fit in with global research into fusion, and
why has that been so important? Just as a as a design for for a
number of reasons sets sets of benchmark.
It's it's been used progressively over the years to
prove magnetic confinement, the heating systems, the emissions,
how you would monitor and control and machine, a future
fusion device and a lot of other machines that are in the
pipeline are based on jet design in various forms.
So for example, the it's a machine that's being built at
Cadarache in the South of France.
There's a huge international collaboration, it involves
governments that represent half of the world's population to
build this fusion reactor in the South of France that is, is
based on a lot of what's been learned at JET and even as we
now head into the decommissioning phase for JET,
JET isn't finished, it's just entering another phase.
So it's a in France the STEP device which is a UK design
being built that W Burton they're all learning from the
history of jet over the last 40 years of operation and they'll
continue to learn as we decommission JET.
What does if? What has it felt like to be
working there, working with the team, knowing how important this
work has been and is? Is that part of the reason that
drew you to to to work at Jet? Yeah, I I actually first came to
to column in 2003. At that time we were just
preparing for what was called the enhanced performance
shutdown and and this was to do a major upgrade of the the Jet
machine that took fourteen months and that was working in
the the remote handling team And it was it was incredibly
exciting because the the the scale of the machine and the
remote handling that we actually do here on site is world class.
So it was really good being involved in that And then since
2003 I've had various roles where I've been involved in
other shutdowns and then I spent eight years at Itza in the South
of France in the construction management team and then came
back to column in in 2016. It's it's always had a draw and
and being based here at Callum with what happens not just in
Jet but other programmes and projects that we've got on site,
all all of it is really cutting edge and exciting to be involved
in this. There's a lot of day that's
that's boring. There's there's always a new
challenge so it's always good motivators to come on site and
and and try and make Fusion successful.
How important is fusion to kind of global energy production and
and the climate crisis just for people who don't might not
necessarily be aware of nuclear fusion and its potential?
Fusion has a huge potential to be another source of energy.
We we know that we've got solar, We know that we've got wind
turbines. There's various opportunities to
to harness tidal power. We have nuclear fission, nuclear
fusion along with these other sources of energy.
They all have a role to play at some some extent.
But nuclear fusion is is is incredibly important because it
is inherently much safer than fission and the byproducts in
terms of the the fuel that's required and the the waste
products is is much reduced. So for example, with with with
jets, the the last record that it set was in in 2023 in in the
last science campaign and that created 69 megajoules of energy.
So we had a sustained fusion reaction for five seconds.
But that only used 0.2 milligrammes of fuel.
So that is a minuscule amount of fuel compared to being able to
generate that amount of power from other sources.
So from a sustainability point of view, fusion is, is very
important unlike say it gives another, it's another
opportunity and it's an opportunity that we should seize
in order that we have a balanced supply of energy and we don't
put all of our our hopes in one solution.
We need the options going forward.
You're in the decommissioning phase.
I'll talk about that in a SEC. But do is it very much you're
handing the baton over to step and to eat her in France with
with the work that's been done at column.
Yeah, in in terms of the science, a lot of what's being
learned, the engineers and operators that have worked on on
chat over the last decades have now moved on to to other
projects and Steph is is 1. We also have another device on
site called MAST, which is the Mega Amp spherical tokamak,
which is a smaller machine, but that's also been very successful
UK project. So the the workforce has sort of
diversified and it's getting involved in other projects all
leading towards fusion as a future energy supply.
You know, the big question is how close are we, how close
could we be to to achieving that?
So a lot of, a lot of people laugh.
Fusion is always in the future. I don't think that we've ever
been closer to fusion than we are now.
Jet has proven that a fusion reaction is is viable and it's
sustainable. ITER in France will prove that
you can get more energy out of the machine that you put in.
So it will become commercially viable and step as a UK based
project at West Burton as part of UKAA will prove that it's
commercially viable and will build the first commercial
reactor here in the UK. So I think we're we're very
close and the the closeness of proving fusion as an energy
source and the the importance that is being given to it by by
UK and international government is, is also why there is so much
investment. So over the last 10 or so years
there have been a lot of private fusion companies that have been
established and they're all working on on various schemes.
A lot of them are based on on what's been proven at at Jet.
And so yeah, the investment and the interest is there because
there is a, there is a motivation we've we've got to
make fusion work and it's getting closer.
This is hugely exciting, a hugely important project and now
it's being decommissioned, which is also a a world first.
So could you tell us a bit about the decommissioning programme?
I know it's only just begun and also.
Your. Role so you're head of jet
decommissioning and handling, so how does your role fit in within
that programme of decommissioning and and what are
you responsible for? So as as Head of Decommissioning
and Handling, I'm responsible for the commissioning and
handling as basically the the talk blackened all of the
auxiliary systems. So the the the jet machine is is
distributed or the jet facility is distributed across a number
of connected buildings. The the the machine itself is in
a concrete bioshield where access is very much restricted
and then systems branch out into other facilities.
So what my team is is working on is the effectively the design
for how we will decommission the the jet machine.
So we're having to work out firstly how it went together,
considering that at the time it was mostly done through through
paper documents rather than electronic files.
Have you still got those paper? Documents, Yeah, definitely we
do. But we're we're trying to work
through archive, so we've got industrial archaeology going on
to work out. Machine went together.
Is anyone sit around who worked on that?
Yeah, we are. We are quite fortunate that we
have reached back to a number of engineers who are involved in
the early days and and also as as part of the the jet
decommissioning programme we've we've actually on boarded a lot
of engineers who were involved in the operation of the machine.
So there's a lot of knowledge, personal knowledge that we've
we've taken on board as part of the team.
So you haven't gone back to Russian too much?
No, no, not so we're we're having to go through this
industrial archaeology to reverse engineer the the machine
to work out how to take it apart and then in in doing so we're
having to schedule all the work The the decommissioning will be
done under CDM construction design and management
regulations as well as ionising radiation regs and so on.
So we're having to work out how to decommission the machine
safely, not all of our contracting strategy, new
capabilities that are needed because as part of
decommissioning we we don't just want to take the machine apart
and dispose of hundreds of thousands of tonnes of material
as as waste. What we're trying to do is in
intelligence being applied to decommission the machine so that
we repurpose as much of the equipment as possible.
So you know we want to to use some of the equipment for future
science experiments on site or with other collaborators in
Europe. We want to recycle the material
so they go back into the supply chain and we also want to
recover as much of the the tritium that the fuel as we can
because it's not waste, it's it's a fuel, it can be used in
future devices. So we're trying to to do you
know apply an intelligent approach to decommission the the
machine. And in doing so, we've we've got
connections with for example, the Nuclear Decommissioning
Authority because we're using this site as a lead and learn.
So am I right in thinking that a decommissioning of a tokamak at
this scale has never been done before?
No, nobody has decommissioned facility on the size of jet
before for for fusion. It's not only the first of a
kind project, it's it's also the only project of its type that we
will we will have the opportunity to to learn from in
the next 20 or or more years. So it's the timing of it.
It's really important because it can feed into the design for
it's a first step and so on. So there's a lot of interest
growing about what can be learned from decommissioning jet
because it will help with the design of of the next
generation. How does that make you feel,
personally, To work on the project, on something no one's
ever done before? Is it exciting?
Daunting. Terrifying.
I don't wake up every morning thinking I'm going to change the
world. It's a job, It's a really
exciting job and the people that I get to work with are really
intelligent and and really motivated.
I guess it's only when you sort of step, step back when we've
achieved a major milestone that you think, yeah, that that was
really good. We've made a difference here,
but otherwise, you know, I'm sure a lot of listeners will
answer you. You sort of get into the day job
where you're you're constantly churning through the problems,
trying to find solutions and so on.
It's only when you sort of step back that you think, yeah, hold
on, this is you can tend to lose sight of the of the bigger, the
bigger picture. In terms of project management,
what have been the biggest challenges that that you kind of
face in in the in the job at the moment?
Because this this is a first of a kind project, we're also
applying first of the kind technology, so I mentioned
remote handling earlier. So since the mid 1980s Jack has
had a a large scale remote handling system where we use
dextrous manipulators. Do you mean robots?
Thoughts within the machine and that's been a proven system
we've already operated for about 60,000 hours since the since the
machine was the remote handling system became operational.
But the amount of remote handling that we will do in
inject to decommission it is, is going to be a of a larger scale.
And in doing so we're also developing a lot of new
technologies. So for example we're going to be
deploying large scale cutting devices into the machine with
sort of metre diameter circular saws deployed robotically to cut
up copper coils. We've got laser cutting, We're
going to be using a very high power laser to cut steel away
and this hasn't been done before, not on the scale that
that we're looking at in jets. And so I remember when I came on
site the the those a replica of the tokamak where they were
using some of the remote handling on that.
Is that Is that how you learn how to do it before you actually
go in? And how important is that?
Yeah. So we we have a a full scale
test facility so that when the remote handling system isn't
operating on the JET machine itself, the operators can
develop their their tasks and do training, document their
procedures, their safe system of work.
So we always go through a very thorough process of performing
trials in in a virtual reality system before we then do task
training trials and then once everything is proven we we then
deploy and and do the task inside the the the vessel.
So that's a major piece of work that we'll be doing over the
next 5 or so years. We're a PM, the only chartered
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benefits. Could you give listeners a
description of the tokamak if you, I mean that's it's quite
hard to do, but could you give them an idea of what it actually
looks like and how big it is? OK, so if you were to imagine a
a a doughnut with a with a hole in the middle, that's that's
what the tokamak is, is is a doughnut.
But instead of having the tasty pastry and so on inside, it's a.
It's a vacuum chamber or vacuum vessel.
And what's it lined in? So it's a it's a vacuum vessel
with several layers which provide the containment for the
gases. It maintains a vacuum and it
maintains the plasma. The the plasma is mentioned
earlier, the the machine would get up to 150 million degrees.
So you have to contain that plasma within what's called a
first wall. And that first wall comprises
tireless handles which are made out of fever perineum or carbon
fibre composites or tungsten or tungsten coated carbon fibre
composites and and those tiles are able to contain the plasma
in conjunction with the magnetic field.
So in theory the plasma shouldn't touch the tiles but
they will constantly erode as the machine is operating.
The the plasma is contained by magnetic fields which are
arranged around all of the the sort of the the tokamak section
or if you took a slice through the the donut.
When I went on site I I saw it from afar and I saw the replica
where you used to test and train.
But if you were to go into the tokamak, how long would it take
you to to walk round it, do you think?
Have you ever tried it? Have been inside the the the
machine and I think it was 2000 and and four previously
dependent on the the dose rate exposure to operators.
We have been able to put personnel into the machine for
for short duration tasks. You basically call crawl through
a shoot into the machine through a horizontal port that's sort of
midway up the outer wall through an Abscess facility, and you
could do some tasks within the vessel.
But your entry is limited to to several hours and it's it really
isn't a pleasant experience because you're wearing several
layers of undergarments within a a rubberized pressurised suit.
We've got breathing hoses and so on trailing behind you.
It makes a really interesting weight loss programme because
when you come out you can tip the suit and all of the the the
sweat pours out of it. But since then the machine has
become more and more activated and we've we've increased the
the, the operation. So the the reason that we're
going to deploy remote handling systems going forward is that
the predictions on the exposure to to operators is that to
decommission the machine we wouldn't be able to put
personnel in for 35 years since it stopped operating.
So we we don't really want to have a very long care and
maintenance period. What we want to do is
decommission as quickly and as safely as we can and that means
that we will use some remote handling and robotics wherever
we we can justify the the investment.
So I mean that's one of the challenges, right the the kind
of technical technological side of things, what are the
challenges exist like I guess the safety as well is is
obviously a predominantly important.
Yeah so jet jet isn't a licenced nuclear site but we have
significant hazards. We we we have the radiation, we
have tritium to the fuel that the off gases, the brilliant
that's used within the machine is is highly toxic.
We have mercury and other materials on sites and fairly
exotic materials that we can't handle.
And even now while we're in an engineering and planning phase
for some areas where we've actually just started to do the
the first major decommissioning activity which is to to isolate
and then remove all of the high voltage power supplies.
So even this in its in its own rights as a as a first activity
it's it's 63 Transformers which are very large pieces of
equipment with with all the associated power cabling and
control units and so on. And and there's 500,000 litres
of oil that we've got to try and recover from inside these
Transformers. So everything is is really large
scale and you know there's this hazards associated with
everything we're doing which is why we're we're trying to take a
very disciplined engineering and management approach to the work.
Is this kind of massive problem solving part of what you relish
about the role? Yes, it is there.
There's nothing on this site that you can say is just stand
alone and you can just deal with one thing The the power supplies
that I just mentioned, we're going to decommission 2
facilities, but they're connected to another dozen
facilities. So we've got to work out how we
can bypass some of the power supplies and put additional
loops in while we're decommissioning others there.
There's nothing is is is simple about any of it.
So every day there's a new challenge that we need to work
out how we're going to overcome it.
And that's that's part of the the excitement about being on a
project like this. Do you have a particular project
management approach when it comes to people on projects and
is that something you find motivating to work with?
I mean obviously such talented, interesting international
experts. So yeah, I mean we we have a a
very broad mix of people on on on site.
We have quite a large international community because
that was a a European project and as as things have progressed
we've brought in a lot of international collaborators.
We have a a a very motivated workforce and everybody who is
here on site is everybody comes across as being motivated to
help solve the Fusion challenge in in one form or another.
And that is is is really good to work with with people.
Because despite the challenges that we have, there's a lot of
motivation to try and solve those challenges.
Even if people go above and beyond working in their own time
to to think about problems and then bring them back into into
the workplace. But in in terms of trying to to
to manage this as well the the intelligent workforce and the
high degree of enthusiasm also brings its own challenges.
Because sometimes you need to ring people back in to say that
that's great, but we don't need to worry about the the problem
in in three years time today we need to focus on the problem
that we've got today and tomorrow.
So it's trying to bring things back to we've we've got a plan
we know what we've got to deal with now but we'll park other
things and deal with them in the future.
So managing the workforces has is is really interesting because
you know sometimes there can be an over motivation to to to
succeed. Well, I guess that must be it.
I mean, there's probably people listening to thinking, I wish we
had that problem, that's all. Nice problem to have, but it's
it's generally a a pleasant environment and people are
motivated. Do you have a, I mean a
particular approach to management?
How do you manage the teams that you oversee?
I will be as direct as I need to be in terms of setting
priorities and and goals and and target dates.
Because I'm also an engineer as well as a programme manager.
I'll I'll help the engineering team and try and solve some of
the problems that we have as we go through them.
But once I've sort of set out what what the vision is, I am
very much reliant on a strong project controls team that we
have to to work through, develop the the detailed schedules to
achieve the the strategy or vision that's been set out and
then to to to help the team to deliver it once we've got that
schedule and cost baseline in place.
But what I don't do is step back.
I I still like to very much get involved in the detail and where
we have problems, try and help the team to solve them.
So are you. You're very much a manager,
project manager, who would be walking around the office just
being part of the team. Yeah, Yeah.
So I I work in a large open plan office.
My team is about 120 people of of which roughly half are within
the building that I'm based in. But I I try and make sure that
I'm I'm always visible. I'm not shut away in an office
on my own. If if anybody wants to come and
talk through something I'm available or I'll walk over and
just have a chat with people see how they're getting on with
different things. But yeah, I just try to make
sure that I'm available and approachable.
Then you know that I'm part of the team and and also try and
bring a bit of humour in into things as well because you know
we we are under some some pressure we have not job to do
but it also needs to be an enjoyable place to work so that
that's important that the team knows that I'm approachable and
that there there has to be a a a bit of humour as well.
No, and that's such interesting management advice because what's
instantly springing to mind is when I interviewed Bill Locks,
who was the NASA programme manager and he he he told me how
important humour was in these extremely, you know, highly
pressurised projects where if something goes wrong it it's a
really big deal. So humour is a a natural way to
keep people, the team, functioning and people happy.
It it is important, it is important.
We're we're we're in a serious business We we are dealing with
a high hazard environment but also now and again you just have
to inject a bit of humour to take a little bit of pressure
off and and it also helps to to to form the team.
An important question I want to ask you would be what have been
the lessons around programming, project management that you've
learned working where you do now that perhaps you'd wish you
could have told a younger self? Everything that I've done for
the last 20 or so years since I've been involved in in Fusion
has has been first of a kind. No.
No matter how much you can try and relate a new project to
something that you've done before.
Every project is different and I think it's important to learn
that no matter how well you you think you've planned for work
and how much you've divested energy into into risk management
and and and so on and trying to make sure that you've got a good
team. There are always things that are
going to trip you up. So trying to really just make
sure that you've you you've got enough contingency on a first of
a kind project and that you're always transfer anticipate the
the risk occurring you you can never step back and say I've got
a plan on just delivering to the plan.
You need to really keep looking ahead at what's going to
potentially trip you up in in a month's time, three months,
time, six months, 12 months, and just keep anticipating the
issues and make sure you've got enough contingency to to address
those. Any other words of wisdom?
Yeah, and enjoy projects. I think it's important you have.
You have to enjoy them. Don't take a project as just
being a a a day job. Projects can be can be very,
very enjoyable when you've got a team that's motivated and are
all pulling in the same direction.
What bit of a project do you enjoy the most?
The party when it closes. So you've had.
No, we've we've we've we've had a lot of successes along the way
and I I think the the part that I've really, I really do enjoy
is when there's an opportunity to recognise what people have
accomplished. Even even as as we've been
developing the remote handling upgrades we've we we completed a
major development programme that took four years to to design
this new control system and that that involved over 100 people
working for a a long period, extended days and so on.
And to be able to step back for for a day, organise a bit of a
an event for them and and to just socialise and give them the
recognition for having accomplished the a huge amount
to to get to that point. And we hadn't finished at that
point, but it was just an opportunity to so, so to say
thank you to people for what they've done and I think that's
important. Was there anything else you
wanted to add? I did want to ask you whether
you had any interesting anecdotes from working that
you're able to share. What I would say is that you
know colour column the the the site here where where Jack is
being hosted is, is is a great site there's there's a lot of
interest in personalities there's a lot of passion about
what what we do and so you know going forward Fusion is is an
industry to to to watch. I think there are huge
opportunities and it it will be a future viable energy source
and I hope the the the listeners are are interested and we'll
we'll follow the progress of the of the decommissioning
programme. Well, definitely we'd love to to
to to catch up with you regularly to see how things are
going. So it just leaves me to say
thank you for your time and sharing your advice.
Really appreciated. Thank you.
No problem at all. Thank you for inviting me to
speak with you. Thanks again to Steve.
For joining us and. To you for listening to the APM.
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