Welcome to the IPM podcast. IPM is the childhood body for
the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm
the editor of Project APMS Quarterly Journal and your host
in this podcast. I'm speaking with Doctor Joe
Jolly, Deputy Director and Head of Project Futures at the
Infrastructure and Projects Authority.
He recently spoke at APM's Change Changes conference.
Everything is touched by projects, Joe told the audience.
The UN Sustainable Development Goals should be actions for all
our projects. We can do these things if we
want to. It's something I wanted to blow
up with her in this podcast. So listen on as she shares how
project delivery can be transformed for the better by
embracing data and human collaboration and so improves
society and all our lives. OK, Well, I mean, I'll.
I'll just begin by welcoming you.
Thank you for your time and for joining us.
Thanks, Emma. So I recently saw you speak and
contribute at the APM Change Changes conference earlier in
the year. And you talked about the need to
transform project delivery so that it would become powered by
data and would value humans. So what did you mean by that?
So probably the best place to point people towards is the
transforming infrastructure performance road map to 2030.
You can just it's on gov.uk and then whilst it's infrastructure,
you know don't don't hang your hat on that bit too much because
when you look at what tip transforming infrastructure
performance talks about, there's five themes.
So it's digital data, sustainability, capability and
leadership market capacity and basically commercial models,
delivery models. And when you look at the diagram
in the tip road map to 2030, what it talks about is the
system of systems, so the natural environment and the
built environment and how they're both.
Innately connected and how projects basically somehow
intervene in those systems to deliver services.
So in the case of infrastructure, we build
hospitals to provide healthcare, we build schools to provide
education. But at the top of the the tip
diagram are the UN suspect, the 17 UN Sustainable Development
Goals, and that's what's described as the outcomes of the
projects. So that's saying that through
the work we do through the projects we deliver the the
outcomes are ultimately the UN SDG's that's what we contribute
to. So I think that's.
You know that is huge. At the top of that diagram isn't
GDP or benefit cost it's the UN SDG's and and that document has
been approved by Treasury and Cabinet Office.
You know this is, this is a really significant and I think
incredibly insightful and thoughtful and meaningful piece
of work and it's that that my team are basically going all out
to work with the community. We're a team of nine the project
features team. We can't deliver it on our own,
but to get the these core principles of tip into business
as usual by 2025 and that's really what we're driving hard
at over the next two years through a series of.
Three month sprints. So how do you go about making
this vision of of TIP actually reality and and how can project
professionals listening to this actually find out more about how
to do that? It's an excellent question and
and that's why again as a project team we've we've tried
to or we have come up with a mission statement you know what
is this all about and This is why we're saying tip businesses
usual 2025 value LED data-driven project delivery and and the
value LED bit of course is, is the UN SDG's we're being led by
that that value purpose and unless we are absolutely
maximising the power of data and data analytics in project
delivery we will simply not deliver what we need to in the
timescales we need to we're sort of artificially cutting
ourselves off to a whole. Capability that we're just not
capitalising on and yet we use it in our everyday lives for
everything else. Why is that?
There's a lot of so much interest in this whole area and
a lot of talk about generally about the benefits.
But is it because we're struggling to find the case
studies or discussion around how people actually using analytics
and AI? Is it a lack of collaboration
between programmes or across sectors, across organisations in
the real world? How do you see that tech like
this is helping project delivery?
I think we're a long way off at the moment.
I think what's great about things like chat TPT is it's it
has got people engaged, doesn't it?
It has got people genuinely interested and fearful.
And you know, humans, we don't change.
Either there's got to be a huge goal to go towards or there's
got to be a threat that makes us change and I think we're feeling
a bit of that now. So that's good and I think we've
got to capitalise on it. But but in terms of project
delivery, no, we just not doing it.
So. And what I find baffling, and I
don't know the answer is, is how is it that in our lives outside
of project delivery, you know, the world has just sort of.
Moved along, hasn't it. So we've we've got apps, we've
got smartphones, we've got sat NAV, I've got my banking, you
know do online banking. I can access my banking data
whenever I want to. But why is it then that I can't
access the carbon data on my project whenever I want to Or
you know why is it I'm looking at spreadsheet with some most
likely average quality data in it.
And why then as project delivery professionals do we not say
whoa, this is so weird, I can Google anything and yet if I
want to find out something about project delivery or what's
happening in the community, there's no there's no search
engine for that. Yeah, all the tech exists.
We can easily do that and it's something we started doing at
the Environment Agency was. Using graph databases you can
start to set up, you know, a database of things that are
happening, people that are working on things, projects that
are happening, organisations working on things.
And then you can interrogate it. And it's a piece of work that I
really want us to continue now at the IPA.
So they're effectively we have a community tool that connects
people in a way that we only do it through conversations or
through. I just happen to know someone
who's working on something, whereas instead I could just say
who's working on improving benefits realisation right now.
Ohh great. Someone at HS2, someone in the
NHS? Great.
Went up to them. What?
Why aren't we doing that? Two years is a short time to to
get tip principles into business as usual by 2025.
But I don't think as humans we change.
If we say right, we'll do it from now to 2030, we'll do it in
increments of seven years. We don't change doing things
like that. You have to go hard at something
for a short time, especially a system like project delivery
that has been, that's so entrenched and you know, so set
really for so many decades to try to change that system, I
think you've got to go hard at it for a relatively short two
years period of time. In order to get things into the
system so that the project delivery system changes and then
from then on yes you've you've got ongoing improvements and and
the community self sustains. So the graph database is a great
example of how you get something into the system so that the
community self sustains so that it continues to learn and
improve. And if we can get those things
into the system, those kind of things into the system over the
next two years, then the rest will simply be a follow on How
do you change the system and the process so that projects can be
done in a way that's more successful, takes advantage of
all the data analytics out there and any future tech that comes
on and perhaps there's more collaborative.
Knowledge and awareness has gotta be Awareness, awareness,
awareness. You've you, you know,
astonishingly we've we've somehow just ended up in this
place of learnt helplessness. What do you mean by that?
Well, people, they heard me say before, but a couple of years
ago the Institute of Civil Engineers ran a survey about
what makes good design and one of the questions was what are
the major blockers to including greenhouse gas emission
reduction and climate adaptation into into designs.
And one of the one of the main reasons was it's not part of the
project brief and I remember when I read it, I just thought,
you know, when did we have to? Be told to do the right thing
and the the the sort of converse example of that is the Boston
barrier projects and again you can get this paper on the
Institute of Civil Engineers library.
They retrospectively mapped the benefits of the project against
the UN sustainable development goals at the end of the project.
And what they saw was so beyond simply, you know, being a a
fantastic flood defence project, they'd also contributed to
gender equality because half the design team was female and the
contributed to better education because they sent spent time in
schools and other things. Now that was kind of
happenstance. If you like, because good people
did good things. And I'm really not talking about
greenwashing here. What I'm talking about is how we
do additional benefit or additional minimisation of harm
towards the SDG's and if I can give you a brief example of how
we can so easily bring this to life.
I was very generously invited to present at the first cohort of a
recent MPL a major Project Leadership Academy cohort that
was just starting. And the first session was led by
a brilliant guy called John Cowell who's a psychologist and
he talks about purpose and leadership.
He talks about understanding ourselves and understanding each
other and our values. And I talked about, you know,
the need to transform project delivery so that we can make the
best difference we can for the planet.
You know, for people, for the economy, for society and
ultimately for the planet. Because if we don't have a
healthy planet, we don't have any of those other things.
And I talked about the Boston Barrier Project and and how we
can make a difference. Like I say, not not even just
the direct outputs of the project, but the decisions we
make every single day. And each of the tables are like
7 tables and they they just have the picture of you and SDG's and
they talked about one of their projects to say how can we
contribute. And then I've got a prize which
was I deducted a an orangutan from the WWF.
So that was the prize and and the person who won was a guy
called Peter Hoadley from the MOD and the reason he one was
the story he took. They were all amazing.
I couldn't choose between them. But the reason he won was
because of the story he told, the candour.
He told it with the vulnerability and the sort of
humility that he told it with because that's what we need.
And also the creativity in how he saw his project.
Because what he said was my project is body armour for the
army and currently it pretty much fits about one size of man.
It doesn't fit women. It doesn't fit.
Because it doesn't fit, you know, big difference, big ranges
of men. So yeah, on the face of it, I'm
contributing to gender equality on the USGS.
And he said, and I don't think there's really much else my
project can contribute to. But then he started thinking
about it and talking about it and he was open minded, you
know, he was open minded, wasn't he?
And he said, actually, I then thought, where are we
manufacturing these, this, this body, aren't there?
You know, could we choose where we manufacture it so that
actually it it invests it in a really a poorer part of the
world? Can we think about the working
conditions of the people there, maybe the education of their
children? What?
What's the effort? What are the emissions?
The air from this production of material what's the emissions,
what's the affluence of water? And before he and he said before
I thought about it, but you know before I thought about it for
long I was contributing to all seventeen goals.
And he said in my mind's eye it was like a dart board.
The ones in the middle were the ones I was contributing most to
and that's we went out. It was contributing to less but
I could still contribute. I could still make a positive
additional difference to what I was originally going to do
through the choices I make. And I said, Peter, I take my hat
off to you. This is it.
Now I often get the old, but it's more expensive or low
carbon concrete. It's more expensive and.
OK, I get that maybe we can't do everything we want to, but don't
tell me on a daily basis we are doing the very best we can
through the choices we make, through the billions of pounds
we are trusted to invest. That we are doing our best.
I I I genuinely don't believe that and and this is about
awareness and choices and that's really what I'm advocating.
Emma and I think that puts the project professional as the
individual in the kind of driving seat, because not only
then can you make your connection with the ultimate
purpose of the project and you can link it to those UN SDG's.
So I think yes, realising our, our agency as we often call it,
isn't it you know that actually the impact I can have, you know
the UN SDG's is I think is such a a beautiful framework to aim
at because we really start thinking about the system then
how do we make the system? Better so that good things
happen and I'm not I'm not gonna angst that I can't quantify all
of that. All I know is if we keep working
towards them in a positive way and minimising the harm, we will
make things better. But very often it's hard to know
where to start. I'm hopeless with a blank sheet
of paper and that's where I think and the things like data
and data analytics are fantastic because again it connects
communities. So one thing that we did develop
just a hack the wonderful hackathons that the project data
on this it's community runs. Yes, I was going to ask you
about that. Can you tell us a bit more about
that? Because I read that you you
developed an app and that you might be open sourcing as a tool
for others to use. So yes, tell us a bit about
these hackathons. So people turn up from all walks
of life, really all walks of life, and they come together for
two days to solve thorny problems in project delivery
just because they want to. Just because they can.
Just because they feel good doing it and these people from
the project management community then.
Essentially, yes, but but you know, it could, they could
become from the banking sector or media or you know there's
there's all sorts. And of course, you know that
this is a huge shout out to Martin Paver, whose vision
really has been, and his values. All about the community
achieving the very most it can for itself.
So that you know that the brilliant consultancies and the
brilliant minds out there actually work on the higher
level stuff. So let's let's equip ourselves
with the with the knowledge and that's why advocating things
like project data, analytics, apprenticeships is absolutely
key And as actually we are just about to launch across
government cohort going on the project data analytics
apprenticeship. So that's two or three people
from every major. Delivery department and I'm
doing it myself. I cannot wait that we're going
to go through as a as a cohort to learn about project data
analytics to really learn because if we say the IPA, we
say be an intelligent client, how can we be an intelligent
client if we don't understand data and data analytics.
So we're going through as a cohort, we're going to learn
together, but we're also going to understand the pain points.
We're going to understand what the challenges are in getting
projects in in in leveraging the power of data analytics, in
project delivery. And then we can be the change
agents, We can be the people who will drive the changes through
the system. To enable data and data
analytics to be used as it's absolute maximum.
But in the meantime, there's incredibly simple things we can
do. So the app that I mentioned
again, it, it started out as a spreadsheet at the Environment
Agency because the Environment Agency built on the great work
of the Boston Barrier Project and then developed an approach
where we could really hone in on the UN SDG's that the
Environment Agencies programme contributes the most to
typically. But it was all in the
spreadsheet and of course spreadsheets are a nightmare to
deal with. You know, errors all riddled
through it and it's not easy to cut the data and things.
So it's crying out to be an app, isn't it?
So we took it to a hackathon. Spun it up into an app in two
days, spent a little bit more time polishing up afterwards and
now it's ready to be used. So again, this becomes a tool
that the community can use and imagine if all project delivery
professionals. It's a very simple tool, there's
nothing fancy about it. But if you're struggling for
ideas, you could think, gosh, I want to contribute for you in
stages of my project, but I don't know where to start.
I know I'll have a look at this app and see what people have
been doing in the way of contributing to gender equality.
And then the way my mind works, I'd go, I can do that.
Well actually I've got this other idea now.
So again, data analytics. It's not all about dashboards
and and. BIM or something?
This is about connecting communities.
It's about enabling collaboration.
It's about sharing knowledge in a way, in a speed that we've
never that we don't do now. I mean, I've got to ask you,
where do you find this? Happening.
Well, well, well, well. Again, all credit to Martin
Paver and the work that he and his team do just this week, what
he's done and I couldn't. Again, I can send you a link
after he's actually launched a solution centre.
So all of the apps and the products that are coming out of
the hacks are going to be hosted in this solution centre for
people to access. OK, we'll put a link to that
into the description for this podcast.
Yeah, what you talk about and all the work that you've done so
far bringing these good things about.
Can these things be taken from organisations beyond government
and civil service? Can there be lessons learned
from that so that if you're in an organisation that that that a
commercial organisation, can you, can you learn from the kind
of lessons you you're, you're putting out there, all the apps
and everything? From my perspective as project
futures at the IPA, what what, what we've moved beyond, if you
like, is we we did have these so-called Tip Pathfinder
projects. Which were government major
projects and that's that's good. So you can have you know some
major projects that are trying to pioneer, you know some of the
principles and move things forward.
But if you think about it, we've sort of limited ourselves there
to 11 projects or however many you choose.
And So what we're doing beyond that then is, is case studies.
So that means anybody, anywhere, whether it's private sector,
public sector, academia, UK, global, anybody who is leading
the field against these principles, which we shine a
light on it, we learn from it, we champion it and how do we
embed it? App scale, because let's not
reinvent the wheel again. We haven't got time and why
would we so let let's learn so much better and faster from
others and break down those silos across public and private
sector academia. We're nowhere near connected
enough. But again, that's how data and
data analytics can connect us more and and that's definitely a
you know something we're really advocating at the IPA.
So come forward with your brilliant ideas.
Well, how? How did people get in touch with
you? Because someone might be
listening to thinking, hang on, we've tried something that could
be replicated across other projects and programmes.
How should they get in touch? My e-mail address is Joe.
Dot jolly so J o.j.odoublely@ipa.gov.uk.
How optimistic are you that project performance would
improve over the rest of this decade?
So I'm just thinking about the 2030 kind of road map there and
what does it success rest on. I am ruthlessly optimistic.
So I didn't leave the Environment Agency because I
wanted to leave it. It had become clear to me over
the years you know what what my values were what my purpose is
and and for me a life well lived will be that I can say to myself
I've done the best I can through the work I do for the planet.
And and remember best isn't I've just tried a bit harder.
But my my target of best is the fact that Sir David King is
trying to refreeze the Arctic. That to me is what it looks like
when you he's just choosing to do that.
Nobody's making him do that. He's doing it.
He knows it's the right thing to do.
So that's what doing your best looks like.
So I I want to know I've done my best for the planet through the
work I do. And the reason I'm so motivated
about it is that I can see that the phenomenal potential the
project delivery profession has to make a difference, the
climate emergency is systemic problem.
It needs a systemic solution. Nothing is more systemic than
project delivery. So the the prize is you know
beyond our imagination but obviously we have all this
evidence that we're not performing as we need to the the
community as a whole. Project delivery is not
globally. We know it's not.
So that that's why I was you know this job came up head of
project Futures in the IPA and it was advertised on
sustainability, digital and data and thought leadership and that
is it in a nutshell that is it. And so I am phenomenally
optimistic we can do it. It will come down to how
prepared we are as human beings to overcome our innate
responses. So we don't respond well to
risks that are a little bit away.
But obviously, you know, when we were going to walk out the front
door and die of a disease, we didn't know COVID.
We changed overnight. We developed a vaccine in six
months. So don't tell me we can't do it.
It's it's that our innate responses to risks and threats
don't serve us well in a climate emergency.
But The thing is, we know that, so we can choose to overcome
those innate human failings. Whether we do or not is up to
us. I am going to ask you one
further question that I've thought about since you've been
talking It's this conflict between long term.
Good and short term finance or economics.
So in a commercial environment where you have a project and
it's dictated by the money, how do you get these environmental
and social necessary goals into the business case?
It's an interesting one, Emma, because actually when you look
there's an awful lot out there. So there's the Social Value Act
in procurement that was says law that's been around for 10 years.
When you look at Treasury Green Book, there's an awful lot
about, you know, social value and and other things.
So in many ways I, you know my view, I I think we're a mile off
maximising what's what's there already.
Yes, I think there's a lot more we can and are doing.
So yes, you know that that's another part of the system,
isn't it? What we invest in, what we
value, how we quantify GDP. Yeah, they're all parts of the
system. And yes, let's work at those
two. I couldn't agree more, but do
not let that. Do not let anybody then fall
into the trap of Ohh. But then until that's done, it's
not that much I can do really, you know.
Of course there is the we are, I I believe we are, you know, 100
miles off, off, reaching the limit of of what that restricts
us in doing. If you like, if it costs more,
then maybe you can't afford to do it.
But find all the things you can do and actually some things
might even cost less. But yes, of course of course you
know and again that's that's a role that that we are going our
you know as harder as we possibly can around around how
do we you know that that system of investment and decision
making and what we value. Yes let's change that as much as
we possibly can but don't wait for that you know get drives the
maximum positive value through everything you do right now.
And also the smart companies are clocking what value will look
like in the future. Things are changing and again
you know another thing I I really want to to drive at is
you know how do we champion those companies who are being
brave and and maybe you know pooling their data that are
giving away things for the community are making things
better beyond their own immediate bottom line because
they're seeing the greater value in the longer term.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for companies making a healthy
profit. I'm, you know, we need to
procure better. We need to have healthier
commercial models. We need to be driving,
incentivizing and improving industry A, a collaborative
industry, one that does collaborate and share and
innovate and improve more, not incentivizing a race to the
bottom. So you know the leavers are
everywhere, the leavers are everywhere and we have to go at
all of them and that is exactly what we're doing through TIP.
Again just going back to you know the five themes, remember
did some data leadership and capability environment
sustainability effectively you know delivery models that's
where a lot of the commercial stuff comes in and and sort of
pipelines and productivity. So that's about how you create
that market capacity to to incentivise great things because
you've got great examples of of national highways committing to
low temperature tarmac and then the whole industry scales up
around it. You've also got examples of
Pilkington glass building making a load of, you know, better
energy efficient glass which is slightly more expensive but
better whole life cost. But then it all being they can't
sell it, they've got a shed full of it somewhere because then it
get, it gets whittled away in terms of the upfront cost.
So you know, it's all of those levers and we've got to get them
all working, but don't wait for one to do the best with the
other, if that makes sense. So really it's about maximising
what we've got already and what you can do already and and then
that will nudge and push for bigger change exactly.
And don't underestimate the impact of those sort of small
signals in a way because that can then nudge a bigger one and
a bigger one and so it snowballs.
And that's that's again why we're going at these three month
sprints. It's not that we haven't got
some longer term things to do. So that might be in, you know
the end of the third Sprint because it's going to take nine
months, not three months, but every three months we're
demonstrating the progress, the traction, the real change on the
ground that is happening and we're championing that cause
it's it's so easy to talk about things.
There's a lot of talking shops. It's so easy to define the
problem just a bit better. It's very hard to get some stuff
done and importantly, to get it done at scale.
And that's really what we're focusing on.
And again, that sense of momentum, it feeds itself, Emma,
doesn't it? Yeah.
And if any if anyone's going to get stuff done, it's going to be
a project manager, isn't it? So that's the best people for
the job. I mean I thank you, we've, you
know, brilliant insight and real things that people can think
about and get hold of. And thank you so much.
Was were there any kind of lost thoughts you wanted to to pass
on? I mean, I feel like we've
covered everything. I think it just comes back to
that, you know, just get started.
Just get started. If you don't know what to do, do
something and keep talking. Stay connected, Ask for help.
There's a whole community here willing to willing to reach out
and help. Thank you.
Thanks again to Joe for joining us and thank you for listening
to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for
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