1 00:00:08,690 --> 00:00:11,900 Welcome to the IPM podcast. IPM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:11,910 --> 00:00:14,640 the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm 3 00:00:14,650 --> 00:00:18,220 the editor of Project APMS Quarterly Journal and your host 4 00:00:18,310 --> 00:00:20,470 in this podcast. I'm speaking with Doctor Joe 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,370 Jolly, Deputy Director and Head of Project Futures at the 6 00:00:23,380 --> 00:00:25,260 Infrastructure and Projects Authority. 7 00:00:25,330 --> 00:00:28,700 He recently spoke at APM's Change Changes conference. 8 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:32,070 Everything is touched by projects, Joe told the audience. 9 00:00:32,150 --> 00:00:35,420 The UN Sustainable Development Goals should be actions for all 10 00:00:35,430 --> 00:00:37,800 our projects. We can do these things if we 11 00:00:37,810 --> 00:00:39,850 want to. It's something I wanted to blow 12 00:00:39,860 --> 00:00:42,690 up with her in this podcast. So listen on as she shares how 13 00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:45,520 project delivery can be transformed for the better by 14 00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:48,910 embracing data and human collaboration and so improves 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:55,380 society and all our lives. OK, Well, I mean, I'll. 16 00:00:55,390 --> 00:00:57,400 I'll just begin by welcoming you. 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,830 Thank you for your time and for joining us. 18 00:01:00,140 --> 00:01:04,670 Thanks, Emma. So I recently saw you speak and 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,680 contribute at the APM Change Changes conference earlier in 20 00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:11,470 the year. And you talked about the need to 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:16,210 transform project delivery so that it would become powered by 22 00:01:16,220 --> 00:01:19,830 data and would value humans. So what did you mean by that? 23 00:01:20,590 --> 00:01:24,340 So probably the best place to point people towards is the 24 00:01:24,350 --> 00:01:28,480 transforming infrastructure performance road map to 2030. 25 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:33,640 You can just it's on gov.uk and then whilst it's infrastructure, 26 00:01:33,730 --> 00:01:37,560 you know don't don't hang your hat on that bit too much because 27 00:01:37,570 --> 00:01:40,920 when you look at what tip transforming infrastructure 28 00:01:40,930 --> 00:01:43,190 performance talks about, there's five themes. 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,900 So it's digital data, sustainability, capability and 30 00:01:46,910 --> 00:01:50,200 leadership market capacity and basically commercial models, 31 00:01:50,210 --> 00:01:53,160 delivery models. And when you look at the diagram 32 00:01:53,170 --> 00:01:56,340 in the tip road map to 2030, what it talks about is the 33 00:01:56,350 --> 00:01:59,720 system of systems, so the natural environment and the 34 00:01:59,730 --> 00:02:01,400 built environment and how they're both. 35 00:02:01,490 --> 00:02:06,680 Innately connected and how projects basically somehow 36 00:02:06,690 --> 00:02:09,419 intervene in those systems to deliver services. 37 00:02:09,430 --> 00:02:11,140 So in the case of infrastructure, we build 38 00:02:11,150 --> 00:02:14,200 hospitals to provide healthcare, we build schools to provide 39 00:02:14,210 --> 00:02:16,820 education. But at the top of the the tip 40 00:02:16,830 --> 00:02:20,860 diagram are the UN suspect, the 17 UN Sustainable Development 41 00:02:20,870 --> 00:02:24,200 Goals, and that's what's described as the outcomes of the 42 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:27,930 projects. So that's saying that through 43 00:02:27,940 --> 00:02:30,740 the work we do through the projects we deliver the the 44 00:02:30,750 --> 00:02:34,100 outcomes are ultimately the UN SDG's that's what we contribute 45 00:02:34,110 --> 00:02:36,130 to. So I think that's. 46 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,660 You know that is huge. At the top of that diagram isn't 47 00:02:39,670 --> 00:02:43,900 GDP or benefit cost it's the UN SDG's and and that document has 48 00:02:43,910 --> 00:02:45,870 been approved by Treasury and Cabinet Office. 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,090 You know this is, this is a really significant and I think 50 00:02:50,150 --> 00:02:53,580 incredibly insightful and thoughtful and meaningful piece 51 00:02:53,590 --> 00:02:58,540 of work and it's that that my team are basically going all out 52 00:02:58,610 --> 00:03:01,600 to work with the community. We're a team of nine the project 53 00:03:01,610 --> 00:03:03,380 features team. We can't deliver it on our own, 54 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:07,990 but to get the these core principles of tip into business 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,380 as usual by 2025 and that's really what we're driving hard 56 00:03:12,390 --> 00:03:15,480 at over the next two years through a series of. 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,910 Three month sprints. So how do you go about making 58 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:25,470 this vision of of TIP actually reality and and how can project 59 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,330 professionals listening to this actually find out more about how 60 00:03:29,340 --> 00:03:32,660 to do that? It's an excellent question and 61 00:03:32,670 --> 00:03:36,020 and that's why again as a project team we've we've tried 62 00:03:36,030 --> 00:03:39,010 to or we have come up with a mission statement you know what 63 00:03:39,020 --> 00:03:41,820 is this all about and This is why we're saying tip businesses 64 00:03:41,830 --> 00:03:47,740 usual 2025 value LED data-driven project delivery and and the 65 00:03:47,750 --> 00:03:51,520 value LED bit of course is, is the UN SDG's we're being led by 66 00:03:51,530 --> 00:03:58,050 that that value purpose and unless we are absolutely 67 00:03:58,060 --> 00:04:02,020 maximising the power of data and data analytics in project 68 00:04:02,030 --> 00:04:05,440 delivery we will simply not deliver what we need to in the 69 00:04:05,450 --> 00:04:08,100 timescales we need to we're sort of artificially cutting 70 00:04:08,110 --> 00:04:11,450 ourselves off to a whole. Capability that we're just not 71 00:04:11,460 --> 00:04:14,090 capitalising on and yet we use it in our everyday lives for 72 00:04:14,140 --> 00:04:16,350 everything else. Why is that? 73 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,300 There's a lot of so much interest in this whole area and 74 00:04:21,310 --> 00:04:24,330 a lot of talk about generally about the benefits. 75 00:04:24,340 --> 00:04:27,830 But is it because we're struggling to find the case 76 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:32,000 studies or discussion around how people actually using analytics 77 00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:34,550 and AI? Is it a lack of collaboration 78 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,620 between programmes or across sectors, across organisations in 79 00:04:39,630 --> 00:04:42,460 the real world? How do you see that tech like 80 00:04:42,470 --> 00:04:44,610 this is helping project delivery? 81 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:47,940 I think we're a long way off at the moment. 82 00:04:47,990 --> 00:04:52,340 I think what's great about things like chat TPT is it's it 83 00:04:52,350 --> 00:04:54,580 has got people engaged, doesn't it? 84 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:57,960 It has got people genuinely interested and fearful. 85 00:04:58,170 --> 00:05:00,580 And you know, humans, we don't change. 86 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,550 Either there's got to be a huge goal to go towards or there's 87 00:05:03,590 --> 00:05:07,100 got to be a threat that makes us change and I think we're feeling 88 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:09,770 a bit of that now. So that's good and I think we've 89 00:05:09,780 --> 00:05:12,370 got to capitalise on it. But but in terms of project 90 00:05:12,380 --> 00:05:14,320 delivery, no, we just not doing it. 91 00:05:14,330 --> 00:05:16,920 So. And what I find baffling, and I 92 00:05:16,930 --> 00:05:21,940 don't know the answer is, is how is it that in our lives outside 93 00:05:21,950 --> 00:05:24,560 of project delivery, you know, the world has just sort of. 94 00:05:24,730 --> 00:05:27,270 Moved along, hasn't it. So we've we've got apps, we've 95 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:30,530 got smartphones, we've got sat NAV, I've got my banking, you 96 00:05:30,540 --> 00:05:33,320 know do online banking. I can access my banking data 97 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:36,650 whenever I want to. But why is it then that I can't 98 00:05:36,660 --> 00:05:39,370 access the carbon data on my project whenever I want to Or 99 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:43,070 you know why is it I'm looking at spreadsheet with some most 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,790 likely average quality data in it. 101 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,040 And why then as project delivery professionals do we not say 102 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,230 whoa, this is so weird, I can Google anything and yet if I 103 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,790 want to find out something about project delivery or what's 104 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,290 happening in the community, there's no there's no search 105 00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:02,380 engine for that. Yeah, all the tech exists. 106 00:06:02,390 --> 00:06:04,460 We can easily do that and it's something we started doing at 107 00:06:04,470 --> 00:06:09,490 the Environment Agency was. Using graph databases you can 108 00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:15,530 start to set up, you know, a database of things that are 109 00:06:15,540 --> 00:06:18,330 happening, people that are working on things, projects that 110 00:06:18,340 --> 00:06:20,370 are happening, organisations working on things. 111 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:23,740 And then you can interrogate it. And it's a piece of work that I 112 00:06:23,750 --> 00:06:26,290 really want us to continue now at the IPA. 113 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,650 So they're effectively we have a community tool that connects 114 00:06:30,660 --> 00:06:34,850 people in a way that we only do it through conversations or 115 00:06:34,860 --> 00:06:36,450 through. I just happen to know someone 116 00:06:36,460 --> 00:06:39,100 who's working on something, whereas instead I could just say 117 00:06:39,110 --> 00:06:41,930 who's working on improving benefits realisation right now. 118 00:06:41,980 --> 00:06:44,270 Ohh great. Someone at HS2, someone in the 119 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:44,980 NHS? Great. 120 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,130 Went up to them. What? 121 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:51,410 Why aren't we doing that? Two years is a short time to to 122 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:54,510 get tip principles into business as usual by 2025. 123 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,610 But I don't think as humans we change. 124 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,010 If we say right, we'll do it from now to 2030, we'll do it in 125 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:04,250 increments of seven years. We don't change doing things 126 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:06,440 like that. You have to go hard at something 127 00:07:06,450 --> 00:07:09,610 for a short time, especially a system like project delivery 128 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:14,590 that has been, that's so entrenched and you know, so set 129 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,670 really for so many decades to try to change that system, I 130 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,370 think you've got to go hard at it for a relatively short two 131 00:07:22,380 --> 00:07:25,600 years period of time. In order to get things into the 132 00:07:25,610 --> 00:07:29,220 system so that the project delivery system changes and then 133 00:07:29,230 --> 00:07:33,710 from then on yes you've you've got ongoing improvements and and 134 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,330 the community self sustains. So the graph database is a great 135 00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:40,240 example of how you get something into the system so that the 136 00:07:40,250 --> 00:07:43,340 community self sustains so that it continues to learn and 137 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:45,480 improve. And if we can get those things 138 00:07:45,490 --> 00:07:47,900 into the system, those kind of things into the system over the 139 00:07:47,910 --> 00:07:52,620 next two years, then the rest will simply be a follow on How 140 00:07:52,630 --> 00:07:56,040 do you change the system and the process so that projects can be 141 00:07:56,050 --> 00:07:59,160 done in a way that's more successful, takes advantage of 142 00:07:59,170 --> 00:08:02,140 all the data analytics out there and any future tech that comes 143 00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:05,060 on and perhaps there's more collaborative. 144 00:08:05,910 --> 00:08:09,060 Knowledge and awareness has gotta be Awareness, awareness, 145 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:10,680 awareness. You've you, you know, 146 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:14,810 astonishingly we've we've somehow just ended up in this 147 00:08:14,820 --> 00:08:18,150 place of learnt helplessness. What do you mean by that? 148 00:08:18,650 --> 00:08:21,760 Well, people, they heard me say before, but a couple of years 149 00:08:21,770 --> 00:08:24,740 ago the Institute of Civil Engineers ran a survey about 150 00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:28,430 what makes good design and one of the questions was what are 151 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,880 the major blockers to including greenhouse gas emission 152 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:36,539 reduction and climate adaptation into into designs. 153 00:08:36,590 --> 00:08:39,780 And one of the one of the main reasons was it's not part of the 154 00:08:39,789 --> 00:08:43,000 project brief and I remember when I read it, I just thought, 155 00:08:43,070 --> 00:08:48,290 you know, when did we have to? Be told to do the right thing 156 00:08:48,730 --> 00:08:53,930 and the the the sort of converse example of that is the Boston 157 00:08:53,940 --> 00:08:56,950 barrier projects and again you can get this paper on the 158 00:08:57,020 --> 00:08:59,450 Institute of Civil Engineers library. 159 00:08:59,580 --> 00:09:03,960 They retrospectively mapped the benefits of the project against 160 00:09:03,970 --> 00:09:06,910 the UN sustainable development goals at the end of the project. 161 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,090 And what they saw was so beyond simply, you know, being a a 162 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:14,590 fantastic flood defence project, they'd also contributed to 163 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,830 gender equality because half the design team was female and the 164 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,330 contributed to better education because they sent spent time in 165 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:23,130 schools and other things. Now that was kind of 166 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,230 happenstance. If you like, because good people 167 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,690 did good things. And I'm really not talking about 168 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:31,010 greenwashing here. What I'm talking about is how we 169 00:09:31,020 --> 00:09:36,350 do additional benefit or additional minimisation of harm 170 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,310 towards the SDG's and if I can give you a brief example of how 171 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,190 we can so easily bring this to life. 172 00:09:43,260 --> 00:09:47,510 I was very generously invited to present at the first cohort of a 173 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,020 recent MPL a major Project Leadership Academy cohort that 174 00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:53,120 was just starting. And the first session was led by 175 00:09:53,130 --> 00:09:56,270 a brilliant guy called John Cowell who's a psychologist and 176 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,810 he talks about purpose and leadership. 177 00:09:58,820 --> 00:10:01,310 He talks about understanding ourselves and understanding each 178 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,130 other and our values. And I talked about, you know, 179 00:10:06,140 --> 00:10:09,810 the need to transform project delivery so that we can make the 180 00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:12,230 best difference we can for the planet. 181 00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:15,590 You know, for people, for the economy, for society and 182 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,440 ultimately for the planet. Because if we don't have a 183 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:19,850 healthy planet, we don't have any of those other things. 184 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,260 And I talked about the Boston Barrier Project and and how we 185 00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:26,330 can make a difference. Like I say, not not even just 186 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:30,450 the direct outputs of the project, but the decisions we 187 00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:33,620 make every single day. And each of the tables are like 188 00:10:33,630 --> 00:10:38,080 7 tables and they they just have the picture of you and SDG's and 189 00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:40,990 they talked about one of their projects to say how can we 190 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,620 contribute. And then I've got a prize which 191 00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:47,490 was I deducted a an orangutan from the WWF. 192 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:50,770 So that was the prize and and the person who won was a guy 193 00:10:50,780 --> 00:10:54,720 called Peter Hoadley from the MOD and the reason he one was 194 00:10:54,730 --> 00:10:56,930 the story he took. They were all amazing. 195 00:10:56,940 --> 00:10:59,570 I couldn't choose between them. But the reason he won was 196 00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:02,170 because of the story he told, the candour. 197 00:11:02,180 --> 00:11:04,210 He told it with the vulnerability and the sort of 198 00:11:04,220 --> 00:11:07,390 humility that he told it with because that's what we need. 199 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,310 And also the creativity in how he saw his project. 200 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,400 Because what he said was my project is body armour for the 201 00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:18,990 army and currently it pretty much fits about one size of man. 202 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,460 It doesn't fit women. It doesn't fit. 203 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,470 Because it doesn't fit, you know, big difference, big ranges 204 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,590 of men. So yeah, on the face of it, I'm 205 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,390 contributing to gender equality on the USGS. 206 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:31,470 And he said, and I don't think there's really much else my 207 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,930 project can contribute to. But then he started thinking 208 00:11:33,940 --> 00:11:37,030 about it and talking about it and he was open minded, you 209 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:38,870 know, he was open minded, wasn't he? 210 00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:41,490 And he said, actually, I then thought, where are we 211 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:44,610 manufacturing these, this, this body, aren't there? 212 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:47,590 You know, could we choose where we manufacture it so that 213 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,310 actually it it invests it in a really a poorer part of the 214 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,230 world? Can we think about the working 215 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,610 conditions of the people there, maybe the education of their 216 00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:57,510 children? What? 217 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,320 What's the effort? What are the emissions? 218 00:11:59,410 --> 00:12:02,370 The air from this production of material what's the emissions, 219 00:12:02,380 --> 00:12:06,130 what's the affluence of water? And before he and he said before 220 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:08,390 I thought about it, but you know before I thought about it for 221 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,390 long I was contributing to all seventeen goals. 222 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,060 And he said in my mind's eye it was like a dart board. 223 00:12:14,070 --> 00:12:17,190 The ones in the middle were the ones I was contributing most to 224 00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:20,450 and that's we went out. It was contributing to less but 225 00:12:20,460 --> 00:12:23,310 I could still contribute. I could still make a positive 226 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:26,470 additional difference to what I was originally going to do 227 00:12:26,540 --> 00:12:30,910 through the choices I make. And I said, Peter, I take my hat 228 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:32,730 off to you. This is it. 229 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,770 Now I often get the old, but it's more expensive or low 230 00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:37,690 carbon concrete. It's more expensive and. 231 00:12:38,030 --> 00:12:42,920 OK, I get that maybe we can't do everything we want to, but don't 232 00:12:42,930 --> 00:12:47,270 tell me on a daily basis we are doing the very best we can 233 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,020 through the choices we make, through the billions of pounds 234 00:12:50,030 --> 00:12:54,390 we are trusted to invest. That we are doing our best. 235 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,970 I I I genuinely don't believe that and and this is about 236 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:02,710 awareness and choices and that's really what I'm advocating. 237 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,330 Emma and I think that puts the project professional as the 238 00:13:06,340 --> 00:13:09,190 individual in the kind of driving seat, because not only 239 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,630 then can you make your connection with the ultimate 240 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,170 purpose of the project and you can link it to those UN SDG's. 241 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:20,250 So I think yes, realising our, our agency as we often call it, 242 00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:23,310 isn't it you know that actually the impact I can have, you know 243 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,450 the UN SDG's is I think is such a a beautiful framework to aim 244 00:13:27,460 --> 00:13:30,720 at because we really start thinking about the system then 245 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:34,520 how do we make the system? Better so that good things 246 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:39,040 happen and I'm not I'm not gonna angst that I can't quantify all 247 00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:42,060 of that. All I know is if we keep working 248 00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:45,700 towards them in a positive way and minimising the harm, we will 249 00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:48,250 make things better. But very often it's hard to know 250 00:13:48,260 --> 00:13:50,500 where to start. I'm hopeless with a blank sheet 251 00:13:50,510 --> 00:13:53,790 of paper and that's where I think and the things like data 252 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,260 and data analytics are fantastic because again it connects 253 00:13:56,270 --> 00:13:59,220 communities. So one thing that we did develop 254 00:13:59,230 --> 00:14:02,550 just a hack the wonderful hackathons that the project data 255 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,480 on this it's community runs. Yes, I was going to ask you 256 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:06,940 about that. Can you tell us a bit more about 257 00:14:06,950 --> 00:14:08,340 that? Because I read that you you 258 00:14:08,350 --> 00:14:12,250 developed an app and that you might be open sourcing as a tool 259 00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:14,550 for others to use. So yes, tell us a bit about 260 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,450 these hackathons. So people turn up from all walks 261 00:14:18,460 --> 00:14:21,570 of life, really all walks of life, and they come together for 262 00:14:21,580 --> 00:14:25,370 two days to solve thorny problems in project delivery 263 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,390 just because they want to. Just because they can. 264 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,100 Just because they feel good doing it and these people from 265 00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:31,950 the project management community then. 266 00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:34,730 Essentially, yes, but but you know, it could, they could 267 00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:38,490 become from the banking sector or media or you know there's 268 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,930 there's all sorts. And of course, you know that 269 00:14:41,940 --> 00:14:47,530 this is a huge shout out to Martin Paver, whose vision 270 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:53,480 really has been, and his values. All about the community 271 00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:57,300 achieving the very most it can for itself. 272 00:14:57,370 --> 00:15:01,300 So that you know that the brilliant consultancies and the 273 00:15:01,310 --> 00:15:03,780 brilliant minds out there actually work on the higher 274 00:15:03,790 --> 00:15:07,320 level stuff. So let's let's equip ourselves 275 00:15:07,330 --> 00:15:11,020 with the with the knowledge and that's why advocating things 276 00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:14,500 like project data, analytics, apprenticeships is absolutely 277 00:15:14,510 --> 00:15:20,400 key And as actually we are just about to launch across 278 00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:24,640 government cohort going on the project data analytics 279 00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:27,260 apprenticeship. So that's two or three people 280 00:15:27,330 --> 00:15:31,020 from every major. Delivery department and I'm 281 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:34,290 doing it myself. I cannot wait that we're going 282 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:38,290 to go through as a as a cohort to learn about project data 283 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:41,440 analytics to really learn because if we say the IPA, we 284 00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:45,180 say be an intelligent client, how can we be an intelligent 285 00:15:45,190 --> 00:15:48,060 client if we don't understand data and data analytics. 286 00:15:48,070 --> 00:15:50,880 So we're going through as a cohort, we're going to learn 287 00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,490 together, but we're also going to understand the pain points. 288 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:56,720 We're going to understand what the challenges are in getting 289 00:15:56,860 --> 00:16:00,600 projects in in in leveraging the power of data analytics, in 290 00:16:00,610 --> 00:16:03,060 project delivery. And then we can be the change 291 00:16:03,070 --> 00:16:06,800 agents, We can be the people who will drive the changes through 292 00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:09,750 the system. To enable data and data 293 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,030 analytics to be used as it's absolute maximum. 294 00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:15,630 But in the meantime, there's incredibly simple things we can 295 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,450 do. So the app that I mentioned 296 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,240 again, it, it started out as a spreadsheet at the Environment 297 00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:24,110 Agency because the Environment Agency built on the great work 298 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,050 of the Boston Barrier Project and then developed an approach 299 00:16:27,060 --> 00:16:31,090 where we could really hone in on the UN SDG's that the 300 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,490 Environment Agencies programme contributes the most to 301 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:35,590 typically. But it was all in the 302 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,000 spreadsheet and of course spreadsheets are a nightmare to 303 00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:39,940 deal with. You know, errors all riddled 304 00:16:39,950 --> 00:16:42,290 through it and it's not easy to cut the data and things. 305 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,480 So it's crying out to be an app, isn't it? 306 00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:48,570 So we took it to a hackathon. Spun it up into an app in two 307 00:16:48,580 --> 00:16:52,130 days, spent a little bit more time polishing up afterwards and 308 00:16:52,140 --> 00:16:56,240 now it's ready to be used. So again, this becomes a tool 309 00:16:56,250 --> 00:16:59,360 that the community can use and imagine if all project delivery 310 00:16:59,370 --> 00:17:01,840 professionals. It's a very simple tool, there's 311 00:17:01,850 --> 00:17:04,380 nothing fancy about it. But if you're struggling for 312 00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:07,400 ideas, you could think, gosh, I want to contribute for you in 313 00:17:07,410 --> 00:17:09,540 stages of my project, but I don't know where to start. 314 00:17:09,609 --> 00:17:12,420 I know I'll have a look at this app and see what people have 315 00:17:12,430 --> 00:17:15,060 been doing in the way of contributing to gender equality. 316 00:17:15,130 --> 00:17:18,210 And then the way my mind works, I'd go, I can do that. 317 00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:19,960 Well actually I've got this other idea now. 318 00:17:19,970 --> 00:17:23,640 So again, data analytics. It's not all about dashboards 319 00:17:23,650 --> 00:17:25,780 and and. BIM or something? 320 00:17:25,790 --> 00:17:28,329 This is about connecting communities. 321 00:17:28,339 --> 00:17:30,590 It's about enabling collaboration. 322 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,450 It's about sharing knowledge in a way, in a speed that we've 323 00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:37,480 never that we don't do now. I mean, I've got to ask you, 324 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:38,740 where do you find this? Happening. 325 00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:42,630 Well, well, well, well. Again, all credit to Martin 326 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,890 Paver and the work that he and his team do just this week, what 327 00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:49,260 he's done and I couldn't. Again, I can send you a link 328 00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:52,290 after he's actually launched a solution centre. 329 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,320 So all of the apps and the products that are coming out of 330 00:17:56,330 --> 00:18:00,510 the hacks are going to be hosted in this solution centre for 331 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,290 people to access. OK, we'll put a link to that 332 00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:05,740 into the description for this podcast. 333 00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:09,630 Yeah, what you talk about and all the work that you've done so 334 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,020 far bringing these good things about. 335 00:18:12,110 --> 00:18:16,580 Can these things be taken from organisations beyond government 336 00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:19,150 and civil service? Can there be lessons learned 337 00:18:19,230 --> 00:18:23,200 from that so that if you're in an organisation that that that a 338 00:18:23,210 --> 00:18:27,400 commercial organisation, can you, can you learn from the kind 339 00:18:27,410 --> 00:18:30,980 of lessons you you're, you're putting out there, all the apps 340 00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:34,700 and everything? From my perspective as project 341 00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:39,380 futures at the IPA, what what, what we've moved beyond, if you 342 00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:42,280 like, is we we did have these so-called Tip Pathfinder 343 00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:43,980 projects. Which were government major 344 00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:47,480 projects and that's that's good. So you can have you know some 345 00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:51,260 major projects that are trying to pioneer, you know some of the 346 00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:52,980 principles and move things forward. 347 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,660 But if you think about it, we've sort of limited ourselves there 348 00:18:55,670 --> 00:18:58,780 to 11 projects or however many you choose. 349 00:18:58,970 --> 00:19:03,660 And So what we're doing beyond that then is, is case studies. 350 00:19:03,730 --> 00:19:07,180 So that means anybody, anywhere, whether it's private sector, 351 00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:12,800 public sector, academia, UK, global, anybody who is leading 352 00:19:12,810 --> 00:19:16,900 the field against these principles, which we shine a 353 00:19:16,910 --> 00:19:20,990 light on it, we learn from it, we champion it and how do we 354 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,870 embed it? App scale, because let's not 355 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,010 reinvent the wheel again. We haven't got time and why 356 00:19:27,020 --> 00:19:31,310 would we so let let's learn so much better and faster from 357 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,370 others and break down those silos across public and private 358 00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:37,810 sector academia. We're nowhere near connected 359 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:40,090 enough. But again, that's how data and 360 00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:43,810 data analytics can connect us more and and that's definitely a 361 00:19:43,860 --> 00:19:46,310 you know something we're really advocating at the IPA. 362 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,670 So come forward with your brilliant ideas. 363 00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:50,500 Well, how? How did people get in touch with 364 00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:51,400 you? Because someone might be 365 00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:53,940 listening to thinking, hang on, we've tried something that could 366 00:19:53,950 --> 00:19:56,670 be replicated across other projects and programmes. 367 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,690 How should they get in touch? My e-mail address is Joe. 368 00:20:00,830 --> 00:20:07,320 Dot jolly so J o.j.odoublely@ipa.gov.uk. 369 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:12,910 How optimistic are you that project performance would 370 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,970 improve over the rest of this decade? 371 00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:18,610 So I'm just thinking about the 2030 kind of road map there and 372 00:20:18,620 --> 00:20:24,980 what does it success rest on. I am ruthlessly optimistic. 373 00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:27,720 So I didn't leave the Environment Agency because I 374 00:20:27,730 --> 00:20:30,940 wanted to leave it. It had become clear to me over 375 00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:34,890 the years you know what what my values were what my purpose is 376 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:39,460 and and for me a life well lived will be that I can say to myself 377 00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:43,140 I've done the best I can through the work I do for the planet. 378 00:20:43,150 --> 00:20:46,220 And and remember best isn't I've just tried a bit harder. 379 00:20:46,570 --> 00:20:50,180 But my my target of best is the fact that Sir David King is 380 00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:53,300 trying to refreeze the Arctic. That to me is what it looks like 381 00:20:53,310 --> 00:20:55,080 when you he's just choosing to do that. 382 00:20:55,090 --> 00:20:57,070 Nobody's making him do that. He's doing it. 383 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,560 He knows it's the right thing to do. 384 00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:00,750 So that's what doing your best looks like. 385 00:21:00,820 --> 00:21:05,030 So I I want to know I've done my best for the planet through the 386 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,020 work I do. And the reason I'm so motivated 387 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:10,640 about it is that I can see that the phenomenal potential the 388 00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:14,220 project delivery profession has to make a difference, the 389 00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:16,100 climate emergency is systemic problem. 390 00:21:16,110 --> 00:21:19,450 It needs a systemic solution. Nothing is more systemic than 391 00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:24,000 project delivery. So the the prize is you know 392 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:27,620 beyond our imagination but obviously we have all this 393 00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:30,560 evidence that we're not performing as we need to the the 394 00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:32,560 community as a whole. Project delivery is not 395 00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:34,180 globally. We know it's not. 396 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:38,280 So that that's why I was you know this job came up head of 397 00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:41,260 project Futures in the IPA and it was advertised on 398 00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:44,460 sustainability, digital and data and thought leadership and that 399 00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:48,920 is it in a nutshell that is it. And so I am phenomenally 400 00:21:48,930 --> 00:21:54,280 optimistic we can do it. It will come down to how 401 00:21:54,290 --> 00:21:59,560 prepared we are as human beings to overcome our innate 402 00:21:59,610 --> 00:22:03,420 responses. So we don't respond well to 403 00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:05,470 risks that are a little bit away. 404 00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:08,640 But obviously, you know, when we were going to walk out the front 405 00:22:08,650 --> 00:22:12,560 door and die of a disease, we didn't know COVID. 406 00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:15,960 We changed overnight. We developed a vaccine in six 407 00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:18,740 months. So don't tell me we can't do it. 408 00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:23,730 It's it's that our innate responses to risks and threats 409 00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:27,460 don't serve us well in a climate emergency. 410 00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:33,280 But The thing is, we know that, so we can choose to overcome 411 00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:40,630 those innate human failings. Whether we do or not is up to 412 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,230 us. I am going to ask you one 413 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,510 further question that I've thought about since you've been 414 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,710 talking It's this conflict between long term. 415 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,330 Good and short term finance or economics. 416 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:56,910 So in a commercial environment where you have a project and 417 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:03,130 it's dictated by the money, how do you get these environmental 418 00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:07,130 and social necessary goals into the business case? 419 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,370 It's an interesting one, Emma, because actually when you look 420 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,270 there's an awful lot out there. So there's the Social Value Act 421 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:21,270 in procurement that was says law that's been around for 10 years. 422 00:23:22,220 --> 00:23:24,990 When you look at Treasury Green Book, there's an awful lot 423 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,620 about, you know, social value and and other things. 424 00:23:29,630 --> 00:23:36,110 So in many ways I, you know my view, I I think we're a mile off 425 00:23:36,180 --> 00:23:39,810 maximising what's what's there already. 426 00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:43,370 Yes, I think there's a lot more we can and are doing. 427 00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:46,070 So yes, you know that that's another part of the system, 428 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,870 isn't it? What we invest in, what we 429 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,910 value, how we quantify GDP. Yeah, they're all parts of the 430 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,630 system. And yes, let's work at those 431 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,670 two. I couldn't agree more, but do 432 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,130 not let that. Do not let anybody then fall 433 00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:07,610 into the trap of Ohh. But then until that's done, it's 434 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:09,450 not that much I can do really, you know. 435 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:17,710 Of course there is the we are, I I believe we are, you know, 100 436 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,470 miles off, off, reaching the limit of of what that restricts 437 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,810 us in doing. If you like, if it costs more, 438 00:24:25,820 --> 00:24:27,910 then maybe you can't afford to do it. 439 00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:32,690 But find all the things you can do and actually some things 440 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:35,510 might even cost less. But yes, of course of course you 441 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,130 know and again that's that's a role that that we are going our 442 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,850 you know as harder as we possibly can around around how 443 00:24:43,860 --> 00:24:47,710 do we you know that that system of investment and decision 444 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,330 making and what we value. Yes let's change that as much as 445 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:57,200 we possibly can but don't wait for that you know get drives the 446 00:24:57,210 --> 00:25:00,160 maximum positive value through everything you do right now. 447 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:04,420 And also the smart companies are clocking what value will look 448 00:25:04,430 --> 00:25:08,740 like in the future. Things are changing and again 449 00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:11,630 you know another thing I I really want to to drive at is 450 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,160 you know how do we champion those companies who are being 451 00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:18,280 brave and and maybe you know pooling their data that are 452 00:25:18,290 --> 00:25:21,300 giving away things for the community are making things 453 00:25:21,310 --> 00:25:25,300 better beyond their own immediate bottom line because 454 00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:27,860 they're seeing the greater value in the longer term. 455 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,710 Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for companies making a healthy 456 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,110 profit. I'm, you know, we need to 457 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,770 procure better. We need to have healthier 458 00:25:37,780 --> 00:25:41,270 commercial models. We need to be driving, 459 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,670 incentivizing and improving industry A, a collaborative 460 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,230 industry, one that does collaborate and share and 461 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,590 innovate and improve more, not incentivizing a race to the 462 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,070 bottom. So you know the leavers are 463 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,180 everywhere, the leavers are everywhere and we have to go at 464 00:26:00,190 --> 00:26:03,260 all of them and that is exactly what we're doing through TIP. 465 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:06,100 Again just going back to you know the five themes, remember 466 00:26:06,110 --> 00:26:10,160 did some data leadership and capability environment 467 00:26:10,170 --> 00:26:14,160 sustainability effectively you know delivery models that's 468 00:26:14,170 --> 00:26:17,340 where a lot of the commercial stuff comes in and and sort of 469 00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:19,840 pipelines and productivity. So that's about how you create 470 00:26:19,850 --> 00:26:24,760 that market capacity to to incentivise great things because 471 00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:28,690 you've got great examples of of national highways committing to 472 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:31,640 low temperature tarmac and then the whole industry scales up 473 00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:33,560 around it. You've also got examples of 474 00:26:33,570 --> 00:26:38,020 Pilkington glass building making a load of, you know, better 475 00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:42,030 energy efficient glass which is slightly more expensive but 476 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,050 better whole life cost. But then it all being they can't 477 00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:49,480 sell it, they've got a shed full of it somewhere because then it 478 00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:51,610 get, it gets whittled away in terms of the upfront cost. 479 00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:56,950 So you know, it's all of those levers and we've got to get them 480 00:26:57,020 --> 00:27:00,920 all working, but don't wait for one to do the best with the 481 00:27:00,930 --> 00:27:04,910 other, if that makes sense. So really it's about maximising 482 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,490 what we've got already and what you can do already and and then 483 00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:12,510 that will nudge and push for bigger change exactly. 484 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,340 And don't underestimate the impact of those sort of small 485 00:27:16,350 --> 00:27:20,680 signals in a way because that can then nudge a bigger one and 486 00:27:20,690 --> 00:27:22,760 a bigger one and so it snowballs. 487 00:27:22,770 --> 00:27:25,560 And that's that's again why we're going at these three month 488 00:27:25,570 --> 00:27:27,590 sprints. It's not that we haven't got 489 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,640 some longer term things to do. So that might be in, you know 490 00:27:30,650 --> 00:27:32,910 the end of the third Sprint because it's going to take nine 491 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,520 months, not three months, but every three months we're 492 00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:39,040 demonstrating the progress, the traction, the real change on the 493 00:27:39,050 --> 00:27:41,940 ground that is happening and we're championing that cause 494 00:27:41,950 --> 00:27:44,900 it's it's so easy to talk about things. 495 00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:48,880 There's a lot of talking shops. It's so easy to define the 496 00:27:48,890 --> 00:27:54,410 problem just a bit better. It's very hard to get some stuff 497 00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:56,900 done and importantly, to get it done at scale. 498 00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:58,840 And that's really what we're focusing on. 499 00:27:58,850 --> 00:28:02,360 And again, that sense of momentum, it feeds itself, Emma, 500 00:28:02,370 --> 00:28:03,660 doesn't it? Yeah. 501 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,100 And if any if anyone's going to get stuff done, it's going to be 502 00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:10,840 a project manager, isn't it? So that's the best people for 503 00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:13,820 the job. I mean I thank you, we've, you 504 00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:18,870 know, brilliant insight and real things that people can think 505 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,760 about and get hold of. And thank you so much. 506 00:28:21,770 --> 00:28:25,320 Was were there any kind of lost thoughts you wanted to to pass 507 00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:26,310 on? I mean, I feel like we've 508 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,010 covered everything. I think it just comes back to 509 00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:31,360 that, you know, just get started. 510 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,520 Just get started. If you don't know what to do, do 511 00:28:33,530 --> 00:28:38,540 something and keep talking. Stay connected, Ask for help. 512 00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:42,190 There's a whole community here willing to willing to reach out 513 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,120 and help. Thank you. 514 00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:52,130 Thanks again to Joe for joining us and thank you for listening 515 00:28:52,140 --> 00:28:54,850 to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for 516 00:28:54,860 --> 00:28:57,470 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 517 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,840 podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 518 00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:03,350 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at a 519 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,000 PM podcast at Think publishing.co.uk. 520 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,150 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, The Chartered Body 521 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,450 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 522 00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:17,030 visit apm.org.uk.