Hello and welcome to the APM podcast brought to you by the
childhood body for the project profession.
The focus of today's episode is the people side of change
including the challenges associated with the neighboring
teams to thrive and bring about meaningful change through
projects to understand more about change management.
A p.m. senior business development manager, Gavin
Spencer sat down with two Project professionals from the
life sciences sector side. Hoskinson is a senior it program
manager at Thermo. Fisher Scientific, and Joe
Stanford is head of corporate portfolio office at health
education, England, listen on to hear them chat with Gavin, about
bringing people on a change Journey.
The importance of starting with y and the role of Neuroscience
and project success Thanks for taking the time out today to
speak with us today. Joe and Sal.
Thank you. So we're talking change
management today and project management and the both areas
that I know are very close to your heart.
So before we get into the main part of the session, how about
we take just about 2 minutes, each just to introduce
yourselves, if that's okay and SOB.
Can we can we jump over to first?
Thank you, Gavin. So my name is our past concern
and currently work at Thermo Scientific within the corporate
division, leading the it corporate illegal, and real
estate portfolio. Crave started 17 years ago
within testing, as part of a sandwich year, whilst I was
studying at Microsoft and it sort of took off from there,
really realizing that I was kind of eventually in the wrong kind
of profession. As I was more, kind of strategic
than detailed and moved into project management 15 years ago.
Go, I am qualified in prints to add car and actually there was a
little story around why I went into the following
qualifications and that's organizational, ta for which I
studied part-time for four years and given that I am in project
management and have been I think change has been an integral part
and underlying Foundation to any of the projects that have been
delivered which will move onto shortly.
Fantastic. You and Joe if we can go as you
please, hello? I'm Joe Stanford.
And I am head of the corporate portfolio office at health
education England, which is the education commissioning arm of
the NHS. I also have been leading a
program to develop the project and change profession in
healthcare. And my background, I started off
actually in the arcs. My first career was as a
lighting designer of the theater.
I only realize now quite how much that influence the way in
which I work with my team and how much of a collaborative
production team kind of dynamic, I've created and sort of
encouraged others to create because it is a very
collaborative and future Focus way of working, but I've worked
in the private sector. I've worked in central
government and the last nine years, I've been working in the
NHS and I'm a chartered project, professional.
With the IPM. And something I think is really
great for people to be able to work towards.
But I'm also a fellow of the APM and development of the
profession is a real driving passion for me and in terms of
change management. I think this is a whole area
that needs a lot more attention. It's really about how do we take
people on the Journey of change and how do we engage people?
What are the ways we go about it?
And this is an area that I think could do with a huge amount of
investment in thinking. Development and collaboration.
Fantastic. Thank you both and just to add a
bit of a side note. So this podcast is a part of a
series of activity, that APM is running really to raise the
awareness of project management within the life science,
pharmaceutical and Healthcare sectors.
So we're really excited about the campaign and our Direction.
It's going to traction. It's starting to gain.
So really excited about this, this session.
And let's, let's really start off.
Jump in with what your definition is when we talk about
change management. So Joe should we should we go to
first and then stop? Yeah, that's great.
So so for me I mean there are definitions around change
management and I think it's about what we do about it.
Not what we necessarily agree that it is.
It's how do we make a difference with it for change management is
really the the people side of change.
So it's not the technical product development, it's about
the people. All the processes, the ways of
working. It's the end-users how you get
people to deliver the, the new thing that you're creating and
how do you make it become sustainable?
And it's, it's the process for taking people on that Journey
from my perspective. Fantastic.
And so what's your take on that? So I think change management for
me is right on point. What Joe's saying they're right,
it's such an exciting topic and I think it's such an integral
part. Of personal lives as well as our
organizational drive towards, you know, our vision Etc.
So I think that for me, you know, change is about
identifying and addressing, you know what, it's not working or
what is starting to strain at the seems a little bit because
one day it did work. And now, you know, as we sort of
progress through years and years of economical growth, you know
what, starting to strain. In a little bit.
And and and really looking at, you know, are focusing on those
kind of areas and looking at what we need to improve going
forwards and to Joe's point, you know, it's it's it's people that
deliver change and its people that deliver projects and you
know, a lot of the time people come to a solution that needs to
be in place and when we talk about solution, people talk
Technologies and it's just so much more than Technologies.
It's about the people, the processes.
The industry and the market changed that we having to
deliver to and making the world a better place to live in.
And also the cultural changes that there need to go alongside
the change within our organizations because we don't
just put a change in place and hope for the best and hope it
sort of scales to our future growth and supporting that, you
know, change. We need a fantastic leadership
behind us which is I'm sure is a different topic and a different
just for you having but you know, making sure that it
encompasses all those areas. And that's just a few right?
That we've mentioned here. There's loads of tools and
techniques out there. But really is about the people
and have we got the right skill sets in place.
Understand you know, what we're looking to change?
Why is it a problem? And really kind of breathe that
in and and really look to move forwards with a Good team in
place coming forward. So that's for me in my context.
Fantastic, that's a brilliant summary.
I remember reading a quote, once I think it was from Charles
Darwin, that red, it's not the strongest or the most
intelligent, who will survive? But those who can best manage
change. I thought that really
encapsulate the points that you were, you both made their so
every project for my perspective delivers in one way or another
but that's maybe talk briefly about why projects fail to
deliver the the intended. Value.
So it's you think there's too much, greater focus on the
process and technique and maybe not enough to understand the
people side of change. I think this is a really
critical point and I concerns meant that we focus on the day
that the binary split between success and failure, because I
think very few projects fail to deliver anything, in that case,
they've successfully delivered something, but that, the real
critical point is, what is it? Why are you doing it?
What is it? You're intending to achieve, and
are you actually achieving the value that actually required at
ultimately? To make a difference to your
environment to your customers, your service users or and the
problem for me with focusing on product product development in
terms of project delivery, is that doesn't mean that you're
actually achieving your outcomes you've created something, but if
nobody's using it, you haven't created the value.
And if people aren't engage with it, you haven't actually made a
difference. And I think we need to shift the
focus. Itís much more to measuring the
intended value. So what value which were we
trying to create what and how do we measure that?
And a lot of that is down to the amount of use that the people
using your product for. So if you develop an app and
only 10 people use it, but you wanted a million people to use
it, you not created the value that was intended and I think
so. Tim Creasy from Pro sigh, he
coins this. Really.
Well, if you think about the the number of users that you want to
engage and that you want to have using your new way of working or
change their behaviors or processes, the measure of the
value is measuring the number and the the extent to which they
are actually engaging. And you can do that by looking
at the data in terms of the end users, not the product output.
And in order to do that, we need to really understand be able to
measure what that intended outcome should be.
What's the value we're trying to create?
How do we measure that? How do we know that the people
are using it engage with it? And this really isn't a project
function because the projects often finished by the time, a
lot of the embedding of the product takes place and in my
world in in the public sector in healthcare, we tend to separate
out project management and change management on sort of
fairly big project complex projects.
Because the products and the the processes have been delivered,
but the change manager is there to ensure that the value is
created by embedding and implementing them across the
environment that which to you wish to influence.
And so, where I think we aren't achieving sufficient value is
because we're not putting enough focus and emphasis on all of the
effort and and activity that needs to take place on the
change management side, which is around engaging influencing
collaborating and embedding the products that are being
developed so that the value can be generated and measured and
then the success ultimately defined Right?
Okay. That's, that's really
interesting. What, what are your thoughts on
what Joe just said to sob? I think it's absolutely spot-on
and I'm glad you mentioned the pose.
Prosy, I'd car piece of it because I think that for those
that haven't been on that it is about creating that kind of
awareness desire knowledge ability and reinforcement,
right? So behind any project a project
will only ever start off because there is a need for that change
because a company. Is invested in that change.
They need that to be implemented.
Now, when we look at change, you know, and we look at exactly
what Joe is said. We shouldn't bucket these into
failure or success, right? It's about kind of every project
will deliver to a certain degree.
The question is, is it a six-week project or is it a
five-year project if you are delivering to the original scope
and the original brief to what we said?
On a five-year project. Then something's not, right?
Yeah. We live in a market trending
changing environment. So for me when we look at
projects failures in one way or another the biggest the fact
that we go back to the business case and we revisit it is
absolutely fundamental to why we have steering committees and we
have teams and we build that culture within our team to
actually speak up about when things are not working.
The original brief when we look at the success of any project.
Absolutely spot-on, in terms of, what was the level of adoption
of, that system of that process of that change and listening to
our end users as early as possible.
Right? At the start, when we're
building, the business case is absolutely fundamental and
building those relationships with them.
If I was to take the knowledge that I am ADD car trained, I'm
organizational ta trained, you know, I know, Oh, Joe's trained
in your, are science as well. And Prince to Trent, you can
take all those qualifications and they will give you a level
of training and tools and techniques and chartered a p.m.
as well. You know, I think it's really
nice within those charted. A p.m. elements that we are
starting to build the people element piece to it.
And start providing fundamental training to our individuals
around, what are the wider pictures that we need to wider
wider skills? Sorry that we need to be looking
And I think it's this softer pieces that are absolutely
fundamental to anything being delivered.
Now, you can have a team that delivers 100 miles an hour and
are absolutely exhausted because they are so focused on the
delivery, which is more transactional, or we can have
built teams that deliver projects that are successful
that have got rewards in place that have kind of, you know,
allows that kind of open and safe space.
To change and adapt and that's what I'd call really looks.
At is, look, you looking at that those stakeholder mixes, have we
got the right people, people pieces involved, you know, have
we spoken to them Health, we got stakeholders, you know, engaged
early on, you know, buying into the change.
So that we, you know, we can all talk about what our and feed
into that change and build that change.
So I think, you know, ultimately people deliver the change and
you know what? That future state looks like is
really important to be able to visualize as a group and as a
lead and and start setting that in stone quite early on and as a
point of contact kind of go back to it.
So when we do kind of get a bit more involved, I think when this
question, you know initially you are scaring, you know.
I thought about me and Joe and I thought well Joe's primarily
from the public sector. I'm from the private sector.
If we were both given the same I'm briefed the same set of were
both trained to the same level, you know, it would be
interesting to know how differently outcomes would be.
Because the way that Joe would build her team might be very
different to some of the skills that I'm looking for, in my
team, the environment that we set both of our teams up
against, you know, are we going 100 miles an hour or we're going
to break this up? So the word agile comes in a
fair bit these days in organizations but that's just an
approach of delivery, right? The product, you know,
Mentioned, you know, when we then look at the product
development, well, yes, there is a level of product.
But really, we're looking at that business case and the
original problem and the area that we're looking at and
saying, how is that area going to develop in the next five
years? And how sustainable do we want
to make this solution as in people processes and Technology
as part of the brief that we are working on?
So it's a lot more rounded in that sense and I think that
there is no such thing as a failure in any project if we are
addressing the organization and the market need now and we have
the right people and we're training people to skill set to
deliver fantastic. Yeah, that's really interesting.
So really what we're talking about here is kind of team's
people process markets, obviously individuals, having
the right skills and communication is absolutely
Paramount here. So I mean, how do you really
bring people on Let me rephrase it.
How do you bring people on you with a change Journey?
If you're going down that route there, any techniques or tips
that you can, you can share Yeah, so and it builds on some
of the things. The salt was just talking about
and I'm sure she will talk a little bit more about this in
terms of some of the methods and processes out there.
She's mentioned sort of pro PSI and they had car model and she
talked about how agile and and again, we're working in a very
complex ever-changing and very difficult environment.
Now, it's very uncertain, you know, We all know the kind of
view and vuca definition, and we know that actually looking at
how we work with, in this volatile, uncertain complex and
ambiguous. Environment means that we need
to adapt the way in which we work to fit.
Both the sector the the kind of change that we're trying to do
but also the changing environment around us and there
are great tools and techniques out there.
So Melanie Franklin, she's developed an agile.
Change management method. So that instead of looking at
agile product development, it's about agile collaboration and
agile, change outcomes. So it's measuring the outcomes
rather than the product development.
So so there are really great tools out there to support
people going on that Journey. But for me, that there was still
something underneath that that was really preventing us from
Understanding why and understanding how people engage
with change and so you can follow the process and yet still
fail to achieve your outcomes and that, that took me down the
route of looking at understanding Neuroscience.
So, so Neuroscience being the, there's the science that looks
at how the brain works and how it works both from a chemical
and a physiological. And a biological way, that sort
of says, actually if we are Suddenly afraid because we think
that A change is going to happen.
That's going to have a negative impact on us.
It might put our jobs at risk. It might change how we work, it
might make us vulnerable. Then there's a chemical and a
psychological impact that then prevents you from thinking
logically the fight or flight instincts.
The the chemistry that makes you feel anxious that gets your
heart, pounding that sense of the adrenaline that's rushing
through you and all of that kind of stuff.
Is the stuff that stops free people from being open, and
confident, and comfortable, and creative.
And yet we if we want people to go on a change Journey, we need
them to be in a positive mindset.
So, understanding neuroscience and understanding how to engage
with people, and the different ways in, which people will
respond, and how you can adapt how how you engage with them,
that gives people an insight into Being able to support
people to get into a positive mindset and a positive way of
thinking that creates positive chemistry and a positive
mindset. So there's a lot of work that's
been going on around neuroscience and and the impact
that that has on project management, Carol hasta wall,
she's just having a book published right now around
neuroscience and project management and the this Really
useful insights into understanding for project
managers and change managers. And those that are leading it,
how we can adapt the way in which we approach change, and
how we can work with people to get them to go on a positive
journey. I think everybody's familiar
with the Kubler-Ross change. Curve, you know, the one that
sort of takes you down into the fear and denial and then so
anger before coming out the other side into sort of a
positive acceptance and add, Lactation and part of our role
is to be able to understand where individuals are on that
Journey because you can't treat them as a group.
Everybody is an individual and have their own set of life
experiences that create their response that is unique to them.
So, so for me, the thing about the change journey is
understanding how people are potentially going to respond
working to create an environment or A way that is supportive that
gets them into a positive mindset, that allows them to go
on that journey in a positive engaged, creative and
comfortable way because everybody's journey is
individual and everybody has to engage and choose to go on that
Journey. You can't make people go on it.
So so for me understanding the neuro science that underpins the
how people work and how people think and respond is really.
Cool to then be able to understand our people coming
with you. And what else you need to do, to
support them to to engage positively in the change, and to
help them to get in a place to go to take that Journey.
That's fantastic. That's really interesting.
I've never, really considered the Neuroscience side of things
and bombings in the when we upload the podcast, will put
details of Carroll's book in the in the link section there.
So, but it's our posture already.
Take on on how you bring people on the change Journey, you're
not going to believe this but I think I'm very similar to jar
that will a long-lost sisters for so I think absolutely spot
on Joe. In terms of when you look at
Coopers change curve, that's more about the individual and
the feelings that they go through, you know, you look a
tad car and that's all about the information enablement of, you
know, all of our stakeholders. And I think that I was on a
similar journey to Joe which is you know, you kind of Implement
and use all the tools and techniques.
But there's always something fun, something really sort of
fundamental bubbling underneath and you can use all the
processes and techniques out there.
But I think that the actual psyche of the individual is
absolutely key. And, you know, it's funny
because you know, I struggled a couple of years with a
particular mind, frame of a business analyst, you know, I'd
build a brilliant plan with really understand the kickoff
and With come out of it and I do my 12 ones and you know I'd go
to business analysts every now and then, you know, passing on a
watercolor how's it going? And you know they just they just
didn't understand the question, you know, on the plant.
Like what part do you mean? Because naturally their brain
type in their psyche, you so far in the detail that they've got
this Beast of a question? Now, when and you're kind of
asking a high level and what does this mean?
And I remember at the time going to my manager going, not touch
us touch. I'm really struggling.
With this group and a friend of mine, actually, you know,
advised on going on a psychic Orson.
And I did, I started my journey on transactional analysis, which
is about, you know, the theory of the personality and the
systematic psyctherapy of not just personal growth, but
personal change as well. And it was I was I was going
through that Journey, did I realize?
You know, you've got theories there about the personalities,
the communication, you know, between you and the person that
you're working with You know, you can deliver the same message
but in a different way, will they understand it?
The relationships that you have with the individuals and how
much have you as a person? You know, growing up from child
to adult are bringing yourself into that organization.
You know what, feelings are you bringing in?
If you've had an experience in childhood, you know that has
been more kind of parents that this and you've gone off and
done it, you're more likely to probably bring that.
Into the organization. So I think it's kind of
understanding the individual. That's on your team.
So I'm very sort of, you know, when I build my sort of, when I
come back to the question that you asked Calvin, you know, how
do you bring people with you along the journey?
It's understanding the team that you want to bring the person
along the journey and really building that kind of
relationship with them and understanding.
What does safe space mean for them?
You know, is it psychological? Is it physical?
You know, and I think the other element to this is building that
trust and honesty where, you know, people feel comfortable
enough to say, hey, I've made a mistake on this right, but it's
not up to just that person to resolve that mistake as a team.
You build that environment where you all step outside your roles
and you, you helped resolve a problem.
And I've had many, a programs at the moment that, you know, we
seem to be cookie cutting this some respects in our
organization where we are starting Starting to do that,
you know, we're building teams where we are going to make
mistakes, you know, setting up a program and think this is going
to be perfect. We going to follow the plan.
It's never, it's never a good way to set up.
A team is with there are going to be changes.
We are going to realize that you know, when we get to design we
you know we may have missed it. That's fine.
Let's let's figure it out. And let's come back today too.
So I always bring people along the journey from a data
perspective. Understanding you know there are
some XY. There might be stretch goals for
them. So I always speak to my
individual team members and try and understand what their
development plans are with their manager each year.
So that if I can give them the opportunities within my programs
or projects that will allow them to, you know, go, hey, I've
kicked that off or I now want to, you know, progress why not
giving them the opportunities to grow as individuals within your
projects and programs giving them the visibility is Leaky and
supporting them. Right?
So I think the biggest factor in all of this and Joe touched on
it is being there as a leader. To kind of, you know, support
your teams, and when your teams are, you know, really thrashing
it and really going through this year, you create an environment
that you just go right down to. Let's, let's take some time out.
Let's enjoy our winds too far, and giving them some of that
breathing space is absolutely key.
So when you take what we've just said, and you take it within an
organizational context, it's very different to.
If you are delivering a project to somebody, that's a shot down,
the road versus an NHS organization or a global
organization. Because now when you're working
in a global organization, you have another level of complexity
as well. You're working with cultural
changes time zones, you know, you're working with different
attitudes and different. No, you know takes on you know
how I may have run a project versus another person.
May have run a project. You now need to build another
level of relationship. With that person to understand
what some of their history and experiences are and come to a
like-minded way of working. So in a lot of global
organizations are you will have the roles of relationship
managers and I find that there are apps that Yuki and
fundamental to kind of helping us understand some of the
cultural gaps as well. And and I think it's absolutely
Absolutely fascinating. When you play in that field
because bringing people along the change, whether it's, you
know, UK or Global or, you know, the finance department in a, in
a start-up, you're still working with people and so understanding
people and what they may need to do or what made, they may need
to change. They need to be changing in a
psychological safe space and working with them to understand.
Their fears and hopes around, you know, how do they want, how
do they see this project or program changing lives or
changing the playing field that they're working in?
And I think the other element is is as a leader you you know
working to deliver this change but it's not just a framework
that we're now following. Yeah it is about the change all
the way through from the minute that anybody initiates a project
all the way through to China and then also, So, they're after.
Yeah, we don't just deliver a project and go.
There you go. See you later.
You know, we have to manage our end users expectations.
Because now they're looking A Whole New World of.
You've just switched us on to this whole world.
We don't want an element of surprise.
So as much information, you can provide early on.
So there are very little surprises throughout that
journey and that's absolutely fundamental working with the
leadership to, you know, Cascade and move those messages around.
And having a supportive leadership is absolutely
fundamental to a lot of the programs that I work with.
And I'm lucky to have that, you know, to be able to have that
relationship with them to, you know, raise any issues and know
and have the confidence that they are going to be resolved,
or I'm going to resolve the issues for my team's.
So having that trust that Honesty, you know, those
individuals are able to come up to you and and provide them with
that growth mindset. And playing field more than
anything. I try and make my projects as
fun as possible making term at the same time.
You know. We do have so many challenges
around that. Yes, absolutely.
And I mean even when you mention working on a global scale with
the different communication Styles and individuals that's
just a challenge on itself. But yeah, really interesting
when you talk about creating that comfortable environment and
obviously identifying the drivers Joe I'm going to come
back. My next question is going to tap
into The, you said a moment ago, which is you mentioned the why?
And what's the wind up? I always like to kind of focus
on not. So, I think the next question
really would be to both of you. How I mean, how can you imagine
the impact that you're having on people on the outcome and that
really links into to that? What's the Y?
So who would like to pick that one up first?
Yeah I will if that's okay. And sometimes mentions two
really critical things in her lasts.
Of comments about this and it all sort of it really all needs
to be underpinned with, why are we doing it?
And people will buy into a process, they won't buy into a,
you know, a financial element or a particular, you know, way of
doing something, you know, you say, oh well, we need to do this
differently. What they buy into is a sense of
purpose, they buy into a Cause Or a belief or a sense of
belonging. And so, the starting point with
yourself and with your team is, why why are you doing this?
What's what's the purpose of it? What's the aim of it?
What is it that you are going to achieve?
Because people people will rally to a cause and I'll say, yes,
that's something I believe in that something, and it's an
emotional response. It's something a personal.
And, and when you're starting out with this, You've got to
have a really clear sense of why.
Why is it important? Why is it going to make a
difference? What's the the impact?
It's going to have both on the world on your customer base or
what's the value to them? And to you and doing it by
setting the wire. You can bring people together to
help to shape the how. And the what, and if you've got
that ultimately that keeps you connected that, you have that
Cool. Was that?
We're going to work on this. This is a really important
thing. This is why it helps you get
past the individual conflicts that you might have where people
are, wedded, pursue particular ways of working or particular,
you know, what they want to do or particular ideas, because if
you can bring people back to the thing that join them together in
the first place, which is the, why are we doing this?
It helps to get beyond the individual and keep people.
People focused. And therefore, it becomes not a
personal thing. If your particular idea isn't
followed or that particular way of working isn't going to be the
one that we take. If you keep people focused on
the Y and then you set your measures and outcomes linked to
that why? And how do we know which Eve
that that's the thing for me that is really critical in terms
of setting the team up to start with the Team Dynamics.
But also they're going to go out with Conviction and with passion
and with purpose, when they talk to stakeholders and customers
and the ends of users and they're going to take that
passion and and commitments and in going to infect others with
it, they're going to infuse that and that's what gets people to
join in. That's what gets people to go
on. The journey is that sense of of
belief and belonging and wanting to be a part of something.
And for me, there's some techniques you can use to help
help to get people shaping that in a practical way.
We've done some work with dr. Tammy watch horn, who
facilitates training around Lego, serious play.
And what we've done as a group and around the project
profession program, we did this a couple of years ago to start
with. We brought volunteers from
across the NHS who never met before they just said, yeah,
this is something I'd like to be involved in Brought them
together for a two-day workshop and collectively over that two
days. We built the project profession
out of Lego, we built the component parts, we built the
connections, we built the challenges and the issues, and
everybody played a part in contributed and helped to shape
that. And what that meant was that the
end of those two days. We had built respect, we built
understanding. We built a in different
perspective. Has and it meant that we had a
both a very holistic and well structured model for what we
wanted to achieve. But everybody in that room, had
collectively contributed to it and therefore ultimately bought
into it and it's like yes this is what we collectively are
going to do and that set the tone for us, then going on that
journey to collectively deliver on that.
And that was a really effective way of getting people.
Pulled to, to build to buy into the why to help to then build
the what and the how you're going to go and go forward and
deliver on it. So Simonson ex works, start with
why is really important place to start.
Don't start with the how other what start with the why get
people together helped to shape it and then you can work out how
you're going to take that forward.
Fantastic excellent. And so have you got a view where
on the y-yes? Absolutely, I think I think
there's just it's such a large topic gabbing.
I don't think we've got enough time, but I think to Joe's
point, right? She mentions the five we often
on our programs. You know, we have an initiative
called the five why's. Yeah, you know, in a process
Improvement programs, any programs that we start, we will
start off with the why white? Then we'll move on to Let's map
out how we work today. Let's really understand and
quite often, that's a revelation.
Shouldn't in its own, right? Because your they're doing one
piece of your job. You're not always fully aware of
the end-to-end process that you are working to and what is
achievement that alone will bring people together in a
workshop. So I always use my business on
this to work on these kind of sessions and really spend the
time and understand. Why are we doing this?
You know, and make sure we've got the four problem statement
their map out the as is. Now let's look at at the to be
World. We've got some high level
requirements. Let's understand our tube you
world and I think to Joe's point you can do that in isolation in
certain groups. But the more people that can
feed into that process in its own right will help by start to
buy in and also unravel any think that we you know may not
have initially captured where human at the end of the day,
we're not going to know or everybody's pieces so the more
we can Encompass those folks into those sessions.
The better and they will feel part of making and creating that
to be world. So, when we talk about, how can
you measure that, giving them the platform and the open
opportunities to be involved and how we shape that to be world is
absolutely critical because everybody will bring in
different experiences. We've got people at our
organization that I've been here, 45 years, you know, they
will bring experiences that we have got no idea about your
problems. Statements.
And I think that when we look at these pieces and when we do
these activities really focused on who needs to be there and
what do they bring to the table? And ultimately, you know, Joe
touched on this bring in a team Dynamic, that means that they're
adding value, you know, they're moving the needle, they're
helping us improve the way that we're moving forward, and
they've had a part to play in that because their experiences
of added value is absolutely key.
And as a group, you know, having that energy Raymond having that
belief and and knowing that I have got the best team here to
give give us what we know today and will also help me drive any
changes going forward. Is actually a proud moment for
any of the change managers or any of the the project managers
because actually, you're all working collectively.
Now, one of the things that, you know, we try and do to measure
the outcome of, you know, what we're trying to do on our
people, as well as how well the systems have been Adopted is we
have a certain rollers you know, change calms and training.
We have a whole department for that.
I don't any of our programs. We do tend to involve them early
on and we've had like a fantastic, you know, sort of
carpool, kind of, you know, promotion of a product.
And it gets a little bit competitive between some of the
leaders sometimes and we are, we are in is quite nice to show you
that right in a playful manner and we have an interview, you
know, promoting the program from day one.
Now, in a lot of our Coughs. We tend to have them up front so
they can answer any immediate questions.
And I think when we revert back to the kind of side key of, you
know how individuals work, you know, I'm sure Joe's in this
place in this place as well into say, well, what are we actually
delivering to, you know, how do I actually feel about this, you
know, and an opening up that platforming giving them a voice
of how they feel and what they're willing to do when you
know actually You know, voicing how this could possibly go
wrong, you know, is good information is all really good
information to kind of build in, from, from the start.
So, when we look at those pieces, we really do need to
focus on, you know, strong leadership.
Are people involved in the process of making that new kind
of system and that new way of working?
Do we have the right new roles and responsibilities, you know,
going forward? If we opened up even more
opportunities for our teams and I think kind of the growth
mindset is the way forward. So I think all of the
methodologies play a part. But again, under Underneath It,
All it is about the people and how we work with them and how we
deliver that message and how we set up our workshops.
That's absolutely key. Fantastic.
That's, that's really interesting.
And and, and obviously, just with your point there about
people, there's talk briefly about the role of mentoring and
all of this mean, we've spoke earlier.
Joe, you're from the public sector and stab your friend.
The private sector both with years and years of experience in
and around changing project management.
So how do we individuals process and problem solve with in their
roles? And if you've got any thoughts
on role models, Joe do we can we uh pick that up, please?
So so for me all of this really starts with the self because
ultimately you can't really influence other people unless
you can influence yourself first and and I think for me that
leadership role is absolutely critical because that sets the
tone for everything else as Leaders.
We have a responsibility to Assad said to set the culture
set, the behaviors that we approach.
Create the psychological safety. And if that's not something that
you're very familiar with, then Amy Edmondson book.
The Fearless organization is a really great starting point.
How do you create an open supportive engaging environment
that allows people to flourish and if you can do that you can
then enable them to become really successful and deliver in
their own specialist way as well.
So the thing about starting with yourself With is ensuring that
you feel not only safe to be able to talk, but also part of
it's about being allowed to be vulnerable.
And that's saying we don't know, all the answers.
We sometimes struggle with the pressures.
We are doubt ourselves in terms of the direction of travel
sometimes, and some of that authenticity and their openness
is really important because if you create that as an
environment, then others Will it be able to to express that
themselves and then you can deal with those fears and those
emotions and those needs. So Brent a Brown's book daring
greatly I think is really important one for as an
individual to think about yourself and how vulnerable you
feel sometimes and how you can be open about that to create an
environment that then is open to others.
Amy M is also has some really great resources around team.
X and team creation. So, having created that
psychological safety, she is got a book on teaming, teaming for
Innovation, extreme teaming and you know, difficult and changing
circumstances and whether, you know, you're in the public
sector where you might have perhaps longer and more
established teams to work on things or whether you've got a
lot of short-term changes where you're bringing people together
to work collaboratively in a short impactful way, you need to
know the tools. Techniques to be able to do that
in order to support that team to be set up and to run really
quickly and effectively and then that's about supporting the
individuals within that team and understanding who they are,
what's important to them what is their their particular Dynamics.
So that you can build trust and respect and openness within the
team where everybody is valued. I think for me those are
critical starting points. That's really interesting.
And I think there's always times when we all doubt ourselves.
I mean, I know there's a lot of people who made start new jobs
and there's that impostor syndrome which which Creeps in,
and by all means, I'm sure that could be another podcast or
webinar that we could do a whole session on.
But so I'll have you got a view one on on this aspect of things.
Absolutely. And I think again, I think Joe's
touched on ta a fair bit there, you know, it's about the self
and others. How do you work with others and
being a K within yourself. When we look at role modeling
and mentoring, you know, it does start within yourself
identifying, you know kind of what what qualities you want to
improve. What values do you have versus,
you know, what values you want to kind of develop over the
years is key and I think that continual learning and that
wanted that hunger right to continually learn is key.
I think again, you know, Joe's mentioned some brilliant authors
there and I've read a few of those you know, for me.
Me I think really the fundamental idea of a role model
is somebody that you look to and really kind of not necessarily
look as a hero but like look at their qualities and values and
actually, you know what, I know I have confidence in that person
that if I go to them and they're, you know, I raised an
issue, we're going to resolve this not to, you know, in a
bullish way or anything like that.
But actually collectively, we will be able to work through
this and I have confidence that no problem is, you know, too big
or too small and we get through this.
And I think, I think, you know, from a self perspective, there
are some really good learnings out there and I think, you know,
the initial kind of mindset that comes to his Armstrong's
organization in the mind. You know, it's really how you
are network within your organization.
How well do you actually know your organization and and really
looking within and going? I guess, where do I fit in this?
We talk about the person within the role and and then with the
organization, you know, in ta and and it's like actually needs
to be the perfect triangle, you know, everything.
Are all lines equal well, you're not always going to be in the
right role or you may not have the right opportunities and
actually having the open discussion with your managers
and generally kind of mentors around your organization.
And then also looking for mentors, outside your
organization. It's absolutely key.
The other piece is around, you know, improving the way that how
do I work? Well, with, you know, all these
members? Well, there's a book called by
Anita mountain and Chris Davidson which is about working.
Together and that really hones in on, you know, are the
different kind of cultures and the way that you work and
techniques and and tropes. So there are some techniques to
soft techniques that are mentioned in that book around
pieces of that. And then when you're
facilitating workshops and you know kind of pulling together,
some key areas, like I've just said, you know, the as is
mapping the as has world, there's a book by gray brown
Which is about gamestorming. So there are, this is just a
book full of techniques that you can possibly use within any of
your projects. And it's it's a great go-to
guide with in tact actually have a look at those pieces.
Now, if you're working in an organization that is more
reactive. There's a book called The
anxious organization by Jeffrey Miller.
And I love that book because I think it brings a talks about
the hot potato and the six-second vacations that You
know, you can have that there are times when you do need to go
into some difficult discussions and team discussions and you
need to just take a step back and bring back.
What Joe was saying that positive positive kind of Next
Step. How do we work through this?
Because no problems, you know, anything that we can't resolve.
So I think that there are a number of areas and
organizations do promote having mentors and having a look at
your next step. And I think it's really
important that as an individual. You know what it is that you are
looking for within yourself to improve and be able to
articulate that because people want to help and people want to
drive change, not just within the organization.
But as an individual and grow people and no organization will
ever, you know, look at somebody that's great and, and actually
just stopped their development. You know, we'll keep developing
them as an individual. And it's Putting that you look
towards that Progressive kind of person ago, who will help me
grow as an individual and take me to the next level and help me
get better at what I do. And it's not always about
climbing the ladder either. It's sometimes looking sideways
and looking at those skill sets that, you know, we're not all
perfect at, but we can tweak Fantastic.
Thank you. So up and you ride with regards
to mentoring, we've certainly into research, a p.m. conducted
recently. Had a lot of calls and feedback
from our members to ask for more support around mentoring.
So at the beginning of the year, we set up a mentoring platform
and we've seen a huge growth with both mentors and mentees.
And I'm pretty sure that my understanding is that when
someone is at a chartered status, it is very much about
giving back to the, to the community and I think that's a
fantastic way to to move forward.
So if anyone's interested in that too, to check out the the
website I'm conscious of time. So I've only got, I think one
question left and then I just want to get your guys take with
regards to some recommendations but there's a lot of resources
and books that you've already kind of tapped into and we'll
get on to that in a moment. But probably my final question
really is just to find out your views really on some of the
young unsaid aspects that the mythology Don't actually teach
you. Should we go to sob and then Joe
if that's okay, So so I think for me creating that autonomy,
yeah, within your teams and actually setting out your sort
of how you expect, you know, what your contract is with your
team. So, you know, I often say, you
know, I'm not going to clock watch.
I'm not going to, you know, do this.
I just want you to be open honest and raise issues, you
have the autonomy to play for. If we work with a process that
does not work in this context, speak to me will absolutely
work. To try a new way.
And I will support them through that.
So creating that environment to give him the autonomy, and the
authority, and the permissions to have a play and work freely
within an environment, to make it to do a deliverable is
absolutely key, you know, it's that trusted place.
It's creating the one team mentality.
It's creating that kind of space to embrace change, right?
Every day. You know, you can Embrace change
and there's no black and white. White.
There is this gray space that we are playing in and giving them
the space with without too much restrictions on time.
And and I know time is wise a difficult one, right?
Because you are working towards a goal but giving them that
space to think play and build relationships but then also you
know bringing that a fun element of you know, making sure that
they don't have any outside noise and that they are
absolutely focused. Is that I think for A the
unsaid, but the list is endless. I'm sure Jo Jo will touch on
loads more to that. And I think two people will
never deliver the same. I think that that's that I'd
love to test this Theory out at some point.
Thanks help. I think I think Sam's really
cuts the heart of it there, which is that the methodology
is. And the approaches to say,
setting up the teams or to running programs or projects
tend to be very formulaic. But actually ultimately, we
deliver we're working with individuals with individual
people, with individual sets of talents and interests, and
passions and capabilities. And that thing about creating
sort of autonomy is about understanding each What is it?
They're passionate about. What do they care about?
Will they naturally good at and shape the roll around the
individual? Not the other way around,
because if you, if you shape the rolled around the person and you
play to their strengths and you support their development and
you give them the autonomy and you give them a clear purpose,
that they've sort of signed up to and bought him.
And they will do amazing things and you don't need to then sort
of do all of the sort of like the oversight and management.
And stuff because they will they will just go off and and and
deliver because they believe in it, they're able to do it.
You given them the tools and the skills to be able to do it.
And that's how change will really happen.
And the flow of success will really come from that.
And for me the starting point with that is leading by example
and and that's about knowing yourself.
Are you in the right place? Doing the right thing.
Are you do you have the autonomy?
You have that Keen. Sense of purpose.
Are you doing something? You're really passionate about
because you can't instill it in others, if you don't have it
yourself. So, so for me, the thing about
all of this, and all of the change, kind of elements is
start with yourself. Look, inside, are you happy with
where you are and what you're doing?
And are you passionate and you have autonomy and do you have
the skills needed to do it? Do you love what you do?
Can you infuse that love into others?
Because if not, then that's the place to start, and that's the
place to start for yourself, and then to support others with, and
that's not in the methodologies. Brilliant.
Okay, so in wrapping up, if for people who are listening to,
this is there, what, what do you want people to take away from
this into session? Is there any, any kind of real
key takeaways, any any resources books articles websites, that
you would recommend? And by all means we can get
those uploaded into the into the the podcast itself.
SOB over to you. I think, for me, it's let's
think outside the box, think of what change, you are bringing
every single day. And look at the why you're doing
it, you know, is it bringing passion to Joe's point?
Do you enjoy what you're doing? And if not, then let's really.
Look at that. Brilliant.
Okay. What about some books?
I think you've mentioned a couple.
There were. I think gamestorming was one.
Was that grey-brown? Yes, yes, that's correct.
Working together by Anita mountain and who was the what
was it the anxious organization if I'm right there was that one
the anxious organization is a great read, Jeffrey Miller
wonderful. Thank you and Jo if we could go
over to please. Yeah.
So so for me the starting point with your own journey is perhaps
looking at brain a Browns work around daring greatly because
that's about understanding yourself and your motivations
and feeling. Getting into a place where
you're comfortable being vulnerable and, and being
authentic with others and taking that risk, and I think that's
really critical thing. And then talking about the team
and how you support the team to enable them.
So Dan Pink's book drive is all about team motivation and how
you shape the roll around the individual.
And then there's Amy Edmondson is work around the Fearless.
Creating psychological safety, her books around, teaming,
teaming for Innovation, and extreme teaming, that's all
really great stuff. And then in terms of
understanding your, The Wider organization and the customers
and the end users, there's some really great stuff from dr.
Tammy watch horns written a book called The change ninja and
that's about and it's quite a fun interactive book that helps
sometimes. Yeah, helps you understand
different choices and the impact of different choices and and
therefore gets you to think about how you might approach
this ahead of time. So to achieve some really great
outcomes and get some great engagement Melanie, Franklin's
work around, agile, change agent, and agile, change coach
and thinking about the the change manager as the coach
rather than as somebody who is pushing or delivering.
It's about how you engage with others around that.
And And as that SOB has mentioned.
So Tim Kris, he's written some books for pro side but also we
there's some great models and methods to support that change
process. But ultimately Simonson ex works
start with why, why, why are you doing this?
What are you passionate about? How can you articulate that for
yourself, for others? So that when you start this
journey, you've got a really important and passionate way of
Being able to convey it. And that's the thing that's
going to get people to come along with you.
Yeah. If I may just add another couple
of books on that one, you know, as Jose speaking, I remember
reading Stephen covey's, the 7 Habits of Highly Effective.
Oh yeah, but that was like fantastic, classic fundamentals
are the Armstrong organization in mind.
That that's a fantastic background read if you get time
to very small book but again it goes into you know how You can
still the psyche into really understanding the organization.
You're in, you know, leadership teams coaching by Peter Hawkins
and then the one then actually didn't crop up.
Until Joe mentioned about Dynamic teams was the group
dynamics for high-risk teams by Amy Farrah, that is a fantastic.
Small little book and probably is really good to read over a
weekend that goes into, you know, how do you create this
high-risk teams? But again, you know, the topic
of this Whole conversation is that, you know, it's all about
people and how you create those teams really does depend on the
environments that you work with in.
And I think there was one, Joe you mentioned it earlier on our
dear friend Carol lost a while. Yes.
And that's really all around
Neuroscience for projects and change management and that's
just coming out. So that's definitely one to look
into to understand how how people work so that you can work
better with people. Fantastic, excellent.
Well, thank you very much, Joe Sal but I think we could have
chatted for another hour, but that was really, really
interesting. I thought I've certainly learnt
a lot and take a lot away from this.
I'm sure our listeners have and I look forward to working with
you again in the near future. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thanks to Joan solved for taking
time, out to join, Gavin and conversation and to you for
listening. If this episode has inspired you
to find out more about leading change, all the science behind
teams behavior of full reading list is available in the episode
description where you'll find links to the books, recommended
by Jones Saab. If you have any comments or
feedback or suggestions, please contact us at a p.m. podcast at
think publishing .co.uk This podcast has been brought to you
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For more information visit to a p.m.
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