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Hello and welcome to the APM 
podcast brought to you by the 

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childhood body for the project 
profession. 

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The focus of today's episode is 
the people side of change 

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including the challenges 
associated with the neighboring 

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teams to thrive and bring about 
meaningful change through 

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projects to understand more 
about change management. 

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A p.m. senior business 
development manager, Gavin 

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Spencer sat down with two 
Project professionals from the 

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life sciences sector side. 
Hoskinson is a senior it program

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manager at Thermo. 
Fisher Scientific, and Joe 

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Stanford is head of corporate 
portfolio office at health 

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education, England, listen on to
hear them chat with Gavin, about

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bringing people on a change 
Journey. 

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The importance of starting with 
y and the role of Neuroscience 

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and project success Thanks for 
taking the time out today to 

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speak with us today. 
Joe and Sal. 

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Thank you. 
So we're talking change 

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management today and project 
management and the both areas 

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that I know are very close to 
your heart. 

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So before we get into the main 
part of the session, how about 

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we take just about 2 minutes, 
each just to introduce 

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yourselves, if that's okay and 
SOB. 

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Can we can we jump over to 
first? 

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Thank you, Gavin. 
So my name is our past concern 

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and currently work at Thermo 
Scientific within the corporate 

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division, leading the it 
corporate illegal, and real 

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estate portfolio. 
Crave started 17 years ago 

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within testing, as part of a 
sandwich year, whilst I was 

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studying at Microsoft and it 
sort of took off from there, 

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really realizing that I was kind
of eventually in the wrong kind 

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of profession. 
As I was more, kind of strategic

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than detailed and moved into 
project management 15 years ago.

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Go, I am qualified in prints to 
add car and actually there was a

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little story around why I went 
into the following 

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qualifications and that's 
organizational, ta for which I 

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studied part-time for four years
and given that I am in project 

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management and have been I think
change has been an integral part

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and underlying Foundation to any
of the projects that have been 

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delivered which will move onto 
shortly. 

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Fantastic. 
You and Joe if we can go as you 

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please, hello? 
I'm Joe Stanford. 

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And I am head of the corporate 
portfolio office at health 

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education England, which is the 
education commissioning arm of 

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the NHS. 
I also have been leading a 

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program to develop the project 
and change profession in 

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healthcare. 
And my background, I started off

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actually in the arcs. 
My first career was as a 

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lighting designer of the 
theater. 

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I only realize now quite how 
much that influence the way in 

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which I work with my team and 
how much of a collaborative 

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production team kind of dynamic,
I've created and sort of 

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encouraged others to create 
because it is a very 

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collaborative and future Focus 
way of working, but I've worked 

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in the private sector. 
I've worked in central 

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government and the last nine 
years, I've been working in the 

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NHS and I'm a chartered project,
professional. 

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With the IPM. 
And something I think is really 

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great for people to be able to 
work towards. 

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But I'm also a fellow of the APM
and development of the 

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profession is a real driving 
passion for me and in terms of 

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change management. 
I think this is a whole area 

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that needs a lot more attention.
It's really about how do we take

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people on the Journey of change 
and how do we engage people? 

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What are the ways we go about 
it? 

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And this is an area that I think
could do with a huge amount of 

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investment in thinking. 
Development and collaboration. 

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Fantastic. 
Thank you both and just to add a

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bit of a side note. 
So this podcast is a part of a 

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series of activity, that APM is 
running really to raise the 

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awareness of project management 
within the life science, 

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pharmaceutical and Healthcare 
sectors. 

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So we're really excited about 
the campaign and our Direction. 

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It's going to traction. 
It's starting to gain. 

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So really excited about this, 
this session. 

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And let's, let's really start 
off. 

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Jump in with what your 
definition is when we talk about

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change management. 
So Joe should we should we go to

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first and then stop? 
Yeah, that's great. 

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So so for me I mean there are 
definitions around change 

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management and I think it's 
about what we do about it. 

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Not what we necessarily agree 
that it is. 

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It's how do we make a difference
with it for change management is

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really the the people side of 
change. 

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So it's not the technical 
product development, it's about 

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the people. 
All the processes, the ways of 

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working. 
It's the end-users how you get 

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people to deliver the, the new 
thing that you're creating and 

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how do you make it become 
sustainable? 

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And it's, it's the process for 
taking people on that Journey 

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from my perspective. 
Fantastic. 

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And so what's your take on that?
So I think change management for

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me is right on point. 
What Joe's saying they're right,

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it's such an exciting topic and 
I think it's such an integral 

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part. 
Of personal lives as well as our

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organizational drive towards, 
you know, our vision Etc. 

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So I think that for me, you 
know, change is about 

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identifying and addressing, you 
know what, it's not working or 

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what is starting to strain at 
the seems a little bit because 

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one day it did work. 
And now, you know, as we sort of

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progress through years and years
of economical growth, you know 

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what, starting to strain. 
In a little bit. 

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And and and really looking at, 
you know, are focusing on those 

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kind of areas and looking at 
what we need to improve going 

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forwards and to Joe's point, you
know, it's it's it's people that

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deliver change and its people 
that deliver projects and you 

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know, a lot of the time people 
come to a solution that needs to

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be in place and when we talk 
about solution, people talk 

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Technologies and it's just so 
much more than Technologies. 

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It's about the people, the 
processes. 

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The industry and the market 
changed that we having to 

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deliver to and making the world 
a better place to live in. 

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And also the cultural changes 
that there need to go alongside 

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the change within our 
organizations because we don't 

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just put a change in place and 
hope for the best and hope it 

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sort of scales to our future 
growth and supporting that, you 

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know, change. 
We need a fantastic leadership 

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behind us which is I'm sure is a
different topic and a different 

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just for you having but you 
know, making sure that it 

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encompasses all those areas. 
And that's just a few right? 

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That we've mentioned here. 
There's loads of tools and 

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techniques out there. 
But really is about the people 

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and have we got the right skill 
sets in place. 

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Understand you know, what we're 
looking to change? 

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Why is it a problem? 
And really kind of breathe that 

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in and and really look to move 
forwards with a Good team in 

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place coming forward. 
So that's for me in my context. 

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Fantastic, that's a brilliant 
summary. 

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I remember reading a quote, once
I think it was from Charles 

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Darwin, that red, it's not the 
strongest or the most 

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intelligent, who will survive? 
But those who can best manage 

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change. 
I thought that really 

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encapsulate the points that you 
were, you both made their so 

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every project for my perspective
delivers in one way or another 

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but that's maybe talk briefly 
about why projects fail to 

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deliver the the intended. 
Value. 

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So it's you think there's too 
much, greater focus on the 

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process and technique and maybe 
not enough to understand the 

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people side of change. 
I think this is a really 

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critical point and I concerns 
meant that we focus on the day 

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that the binary split between 
success and failure, because I 

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think very few projects fail to 
deliver anything, in that case, 

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they've successfully delivered 
something, but that, the real 

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critical point is, what is it? 
Why are you doing it? 

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What is it? 
You're intending to achieve, and

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are you actually achieving the 
value that actually required at 

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ultimately? 
To make a difference to your 

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environment to your customers, 
your service users or and the 

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problem for me with focusing on 
product product development in 

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terms of project delivery, is 
that doesn't mean that you're 

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actually achieving your outcomes
you've created something, but if

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nobody's using it, you haven't 
created the value. 

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And if people aren't engage with
it, you haven't actually made a 

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difference. 
And I think we need to shift the

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focus. 
Itís much more to measuring the 

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intended value. 
So what value which were we 

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trying to create what and how do
we measure that? 

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And a lot of that is down to the
amount of use that the people 

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using your product for. 
So if you develop an app and 

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only 10 people use it, but you 
wanted a million people to use 

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it, you not created the value 
that was intended and I think 

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so. 
Tim Creasy from Pro sigh, he 

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coins this. 
Really. 

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Well, if you think about the the
number of users that you want to

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engage and that you want to have
using your new way of working or

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change their behaviors or 
processes, the measure of the 

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value is measuring the number 
and the the extent to which they

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are actually engaging. 
And you can do that by looking 

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at the data in terms of the end 
users, not the product output. 

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And in order to do that, we need
to really understand be able to 

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measure what that intended 
outcome should be. 

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What's the value we're trying to
create? 

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How do we measure that? 
How do we know that the people 

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are using it engage with it? 
And this really isn't a project 

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function because the projects 
often finished by the time, a 

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lot of the embedding of the 
product takes place and in my 

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world in in the public sector in
healthcare, we tend to separate 

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out project management and 
change management on sort of 

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fairly big project complex 
projects. 

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Because the products and the the
processes have been delivered, 

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but the change manager is there 
to ensure that the value is 

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created by embedding and 
implementing them across the 

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environment that which to you 
wish to influence. 

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And so, where I think we aren't 
achieving sufficient value is 

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because we're not putting enough
focus and emphasis on all of the

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effort and and activity that 
needs to take place on the 

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change management side, which is
around engaging influencing 

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collaborating and embedding the 
products that are being 

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developed so that the value can 
be generated and measured and 

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then the success ultimately 
defined Right? 

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Okay. 
That's, that's really 

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interesting. 
What, what are your thoughts on 

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what Joe just said to sob? 
I think it's absolutely spot-on 

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and I'm glad you mentioned the 
pose. 

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Prosy, I'd car piece of it 
because I think that for those 

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that haven't been on that it is 
about creating that kind of 

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awareness desire knowledge 
ability and reinforcement, 

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right? 
So behind any project a project 

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will only ever start off because
there is a need for that change 

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because a company. 
Is invested in that change. 

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They need that to be 
implemented. 

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Now, when we look at change, you
know, and we look at exactly 

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what Joe is said. 
We shouldn't bucket these into 

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failure or success, right? 
It's about kind of every project

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will deliver to a certain 
degree. 

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The question is, is it a 
six-week project or is it a 

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five-year project if you are 
delivering to the original scope

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and the original brief to what 
we said? 

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On a five-year project. 
Then something's not, right? 

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Yeah. 
We live in a market trending 

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changing environment. 
So for me when we look at 

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projects failures in one way or 
another the biggest the fact 

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that we go back to the business 
case and we revisit it is 

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absolutely fundamental to why we
have steering committees and we 

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have teams and we build that 
culture within our team to 

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actually speak up about when 
things are not working. 

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The original brief when we look 
at the success of any project. 

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Absolutely spot-on, in terms of,
what was the level of adoption 

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of, that system of that process 
of that change and listening to 

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our end users as early as 
possible. 

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Right? 
At the start, when we're 

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building, the business case is 
absolutely fundamental and 

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building those relationships 
with them. 

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If I was to take the knowledge 
that I am ADD car trained, I'm 

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organizational ta trained, you 
know, I know, Oh, Joe's trained 

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in your, are science as well. 
And Prince to Trent, you can 

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take all those qualifications 
and they will give you a level 

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of training and tools and 
techniques and chartered a p.m. 

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as well. 
You know, I think it's really 

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nice within those charted. 
A p.m. elements that we are 

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starting to build the people 
element piece to it. 

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And start providing fundamental 
training to our individuals 

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around, what are the wider 
pictures that we need to wider 

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wider skills? 
Sorry that we need to be looking

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And I think it's this softer 
pieces that are absolutely 

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fundamental to anything being 
delivered. 

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Now, you can have a team that 
delivers 100 miles an hour and 

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are absolutely exhausted because
they are so focused on the 

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delivery, which is more 
transactional, or we can have 

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built teams that deliver 
projects that are successful 

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that have got rewards in place 
that have kind of, you know, 

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allows that kind of open and 
safe space. 

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To change and adapt and that's 
what I'd call really looks. 

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At is, look, you looking at that
those stakeholder mixes, have we

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got the right people, people 
pieces involved, you know, have 

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we spoken to them Health, we got
stakeholders, you know, engaged 

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early on, you know, buying into 
the change. 

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So that we, you know, we can all
talk about what our and feed 

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into that change and build that 
change. 

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So I think, you know, ultimately
people deliver the change and 

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you know what? 
That future state looks like is 

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really important to be able to 
visualize as a group and as a 

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lead and and start setting that 
in stone quite early on and as a

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point of contact kind of go back
to it. 

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So when we do kind of get a bit 
more involved, I think when this

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question, you know initially you
are scaring, you know. 

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I thought about me and Joe and I
thought well Joe's primarily 

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from the public sector. 
I'm from the private sector. 

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If we were both given the same 
I'm briefed the same set of were

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both trained to the same level, 
you know, it would be 

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interesting to know how 
differently outcomes would be. 

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Because the way that Joe would 
build her team might be very 

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different to some of the skills 
that I'm looking for, in my 

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team, the environment that we 
set both of our teams up 

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against, you know, are we going 
100 miles an hour or we're going

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to break this up? 
So the word agile comes in a 

266
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fair bit these days in 
organizations but that's just an

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approach of delivery, right? 
The product, you know, 

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Mentioned, you know, when we 
then look at the product 

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development, well, yes, there is
a level of product. 

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But really, we're looking at 
that business case and the 

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original problem and the area 
that we're looking at and 

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saying, how is that area going 
to develop in the next five 

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years? 
And how sustainable do we want 

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to make this solution as in 
people processes and Technology 

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as part of the brief that we are
working on? 

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So it's a lot more rounded in 
that sense and I think that 

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there is no such thing as a 
failure in any project if we are

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addressing the organization and 
the market need now and we have 

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00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:32,100
the right people and we're 
training people to skill set to 

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00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:35,200
deliver fantastic. 
Yeah, that's really interesting.

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So really what we're talking 
about here is kind of team's 

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people process markets, 
obviously individuals, having 

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the right skills and 
communication is absolutely 

284
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Paramount here. 
So I mean, how do you really 

285
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,300
bring people on Let me rephrase 
it. 

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How do you bring people on you 
with a change Journey? 

287
00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:59,500
If you're going down that route 
there, any techniques or tips 

288
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:05,599
that you can, you can share 
Yeah, so and it builds on some 

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00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,700
of the things. 
The salt was just talking about 

290
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:11,700
and I'm sure she will talk a 
little bit more about this in 

291
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,900
terms of some of the methods and
processes out there. 

292
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,200
She's mentioned sort of pro PSI 
and they had car model and she 

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00:17:18,208 --> 00:17:22,000
talked about how agile and and 
again, we're working in a very 

294
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:29,400
complex ever-changing and very 
difficult environment. 

295
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,400
Now, it's very uncertain, you 
know, We all know the kind of 

296
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,800
view and vuca definition, and we
know that actually looking at 

297
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,800
how we work with, in this 
volatile, uncertain complex and 

298
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,400
ambiguous. 
Environment means that we need 

299
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,800
to adapt the way in which we 
work to fit. 

300
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,400
Both the sector the the kind of 
change that we're trying to do 

301
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,100
but also the changing 
environment around us and there 

302
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,300
are great tools and techniques 
out there. 

303
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,700
So Melanie Franklin, she's 
developed an agile. 

304
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,700
Change management method. 
So that instead of looking at 

305
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:12,600
agile product development, it's 
about agile collaboration and 

306
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,500
agile, change outcomes. 
So it's measuring the outcomes 

307
00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:18,000
rather than the product 
development. 

308
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,100
So so there are really great 
tools out there to support 

309
00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:26,400
people going on that Journey. 
But for me, that there was still

310
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,100
something underneath that that 
was really preventing us from 

311
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,200
Understanding why and 
understanding how people engage 

312
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,800
with change and so you can 
follow the process and yet still

313
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,400
fail to achieve your outcomes 
and that, that took me down the 

314
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,300
route of looking at 
understanding Neuroscience. 

315
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:50,600
So, so Neuroscience being the, 
there's the science that looks 

316
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,300
at how the brain works and how 
it works both from a chemical 

317
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:58,600
and a physiological. 
And a biological way, that sort 

318
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:04,700
of says, actually if we are 
Suddenly afraid because we think

319
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:05,900
that A change is going to 
happen. 

320
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:07,700
That's going to have a negative 
impact on us. 

321
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:10,700
It might put our jobs at risk. 
It might change how we work, it 

322
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:14,500
might make us vulnerable. 
Then there's a chemical and a 

323
00:19:14,508 --> 00:19:19,000
psychological impact that then 
prevents you from thinking 

324
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,400
logically the fight or flight 
instincts. 

325
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,300
The the chemistry that makes you
feel anxious that gets your 

326
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,700
heart, pounding that sense of 
the adrenaline that's rushing 

327
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,000
through you and all of that kind
of stuff. 

328
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,600
Is the stuff that stops free 
people from being open, and 

329
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,900
confident, and comfortable, and 
creative. 

330
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,200
And yet we if we want people to 
go on a change Journey, we need 

331
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,400
them to be in a positive 
mindset. 

332
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,200
So, understanding neuroscience 
and understanding how to engage 

333
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,300
with people, and the different 
ways in, which people will 

334
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:58,100
respond, and how you can adapt 
how how you engage with them, 

335
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:06,100
that gives people an insight 
into Being able to support 

336
00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:09,500
people to get into a positive 
mindset and a positive way of 

337
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:14,200
thinking that creates positive 
chemistry and a positive 

338
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,400
mindset. 
So there's a lot of work that's 

339
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,100
been going on around 
neuroscience and and the impact 

340
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:23,900
that that has on project 
management, Carol hasta wall, 

341
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:27,400
she's just having a book 
published right now around 

342
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:32,800
neuroscience and project 
management and the this Really 

343
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,200
useful insights into 
understanding for project 

344
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,900
managers and change managers. 
And those that are leading it, 

345
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,300
how we can adapt the way in 
which we approach change, and 

346
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:46,400
how we can work with people to 
get them to go on a positive 

347
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,300
journey. 
I think everybody's familiar 

348
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:51,100
with the Kubler-Ross change. 
Curve, you know, the one that 

349
00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:56,200
sort of takes you down into the 
fear and denial and then so 

350
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,900
anger before coming out the 
other side into sort of a 

351
00:20:59,908 --> 00:21:04,400
positive acceptance and add, 
Lactation and part of our role 

352
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,900
is to be able to understand 
where individuals are on that 

353
00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:10,900
Journey because you can't treat 
them as a group. 

354
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:15,000
Everybody is an individual and 
have their own set of life 

355
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,400
experiences that create their 
response that is unique to them.

356
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:23,300
So, so for me, the thing about 
the change journey is 

357
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:27,500
understanding how people are 
potentially going to respond 

358
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,800
working to create an environment
or A way that is supportive that

359
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,500
gets them into a positive 
mindset, that allows them to go 

360
00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,800
on that journey in a positive 
engaged, creative and 

361
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,600
comfortable way because 
everybody's journey is 

362
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:50,100
individual and everybody has to 
engage and choose to go on that 

363
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,200
Journey. 
You can't make people go on it. 

364
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,800
So so for me understanding the 
neuro science that underpins the

365
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:02,100
how people work and how people 
think and respond is really. 

366
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,600
Cool to then be able to 
understand our people coming 

367
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,500
with you. 
And what else you need to do, to

368
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:12,700
support them to to engage 
positively in the change, and to

369
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:17,400
help them to get in a place to 
go to take that Journey. 

370
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:20,000
That's fantastic. 
That's really interesting. 

371
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:22,300
I've never, really considered 
the Neuroscience side of things 

372
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:26,300
and bombings in the when we 
upload the podcast, will put 

373
00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:29,900
details of Carroll's book in the
in the link section there. 

374
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:32,100
So, but it's our posture 
already. 

375
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:36,100
Take on on how you bring people 
on the change Journey, you're 

376
00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:38,600
not going to believe this but I 
think I'm very similar to jar 

377
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,800
that will a long-lost sisters 
for so I think absolutely spot 

378
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,300
on Joe. 
In terms of when you look at 

379
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:49,300
Coopers change curve, that's 
more about the individual and 

380
00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:51,200
the feelings that they go 
through, you know, you look a 

381
00:22:51,208 --> 00:22:55,400
tad car and that's all about the
information enablement of, you 

382
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,000
know, all of our stakeholders. 
And I think that I was on a 

383
00:22:59,008 --> 00:23:02,700
similar journey to Joe which is 
you know, you kind of Implement 

384
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:04,000
and use all the tools and 
techniques. 

385
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,900
But there's always something 
fun, something really sort of 

386
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:09,600
fundamental bubbling underneath 
and you can use all the 

387
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,500
processes and techniques out 
there. 

388
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:16,200
But I think that the actual 
psyche of the individual is 

389
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,600
absolutely key. 
And, you know, it's funny 

390
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,800
because you know, I struggled a 
couple of years with a 

391
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,900
particular mind, frame of a 
business analyst, you know, I'd 

392
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:31,400
build a brilliant plan with 
really understand the kickoff 

393
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,600
and With come out of it and I do
my 12 ones and you know I'd go 

394
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,700
to business analysts every now 
and then, you know, passing on a

395
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:41,800
watercolor how's it going? 
And you know they just they just

396
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,300
didn't understand the question, 
you know, on the plant. 

397
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:48,000
Like what part do you mean? 
Because naturally their brain 

398
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000
type in their psyche, you so far
in the detail that they've got 

399
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,600
this Beast of a question? 
Now, when and you're kind of 

400
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,200
asking a high level and what 
does this mean? 

401
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,700
And I remember at the time going
to my manager going, not touch 

402
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:02,100
us touch. 
I'm really struggling. 

403
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,600
With this group and a friend of 
mine, actually, you know, 

404
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:09,900
advised on going on a psychic 
Orson. 

405
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:13,200
And I did, I started my journey 
on transactional analysis, which

406
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,400
is about, you know, the theory 
of the personality and the 

407
00:24:16,408 --> 00:24:19,700
systematic psyctherapy of not 
just personal growth, but 

408
00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:22,900
personal change as well. 
And it was I was I was going 

409
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,700
through that Journey, did I 
realize? 

410
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:28,100
You know, you've got theories 
there about the personalities, 

411
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,000
the communication, you know, 
between you and the person that 

412
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,100
you're working with You know, 
you can deliver the same message

413
00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:38,000
but in a different way, will 
they understand it? 

414
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,700
The relationships that you have 
with the individuals and how 

415
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:45,800
much have you as a person? 
You know, growing up from child 

416
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,200
to adult are bringing yourself 
into that organization. 

417
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:51,700
You know what, feelings are you 
bringing in? 

418
00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:55,700
If you've had an experience in 
childhood, you know that has 

419
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:59,400
been more kind of parents that 
this and you've gone off and 

420
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,100
done it, you're more likely to 
probably bring that. 

421
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,900
Into the organization. 
So I think it's kind of 

422
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:07,900
understanding the individual. 
That's on your team. 

423
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:11,700
So I'm very sort of, you know, 
when I build my sort of, when I 

424
00:25:11,708 --> 00:25:14,900
come back to the question that 
you asked Calvin, you know, how 

425
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:17,000
do you bring people with you 
along the journey? 

426
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,900
It's understanding the team that
you want to bring the person 

427
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,700
along the journey and really 
building that kind of 

428
00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,100
relationship with them and 
understanding. 

429
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:29,200
What does safe space mean for 
them? 

430
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:32,000
You know, is it psychological? 
Is it physical? 

431
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:35,500
You know, and I think the other 
element to this is building that

432
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:38,900
trust and honesty where, you 
know, people feel comfortable 

433
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:42,800
enough to say, hey, I've made a 
mistake on this right, but it's 

434
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,300
not up to just that person to 
resolve that mistake as a team. 

435
00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:49,800
You build that environment where
you all step outside your roles 

436
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,600
and you, you helped resolve a 
problem. 

437
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,700
And I've had many, a programs at
the moment that, you know, we 

438
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,200
seem to be cookie cutting this 
some respects in our 

439
00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:03,900
organization where we are 
starting Starting to do that, 

440
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,900
you know, we're building teams 
where we are going to make 

441
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:09,600
mistakes, you know, setting up a
program and think this is going 

442
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,800
to be perfect. 
We going to follow the plan. 

443
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,600
It's never, it's never a good 
way to set up. 

444
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,700
A team is with there are going 
to be changes. 

445
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:19,900
We are going to realize that you
know, when we get to design we 

446
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,600
you know we may have missed it. 
That's fine. 

447
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,600
Let's let's figure it out. 
And let's come back today too. 

448
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,400
So I always bring people along 
the journey from a data 

449
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,500
perspective. 
Understanding you know there are

450
00:26:31,508 --> 00:26:33,900
some XY. 
There might be stretch goals for

451
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:35,800
them. 
So I always speak to my 

452
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,400
individual team members and try 
and understand what their 

453
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,900
development plans are with their
manager each year. 

454
00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:45,600
So that if I can give them the 
opportunities within my programs

455
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,100
or projects that will allow them
to, you know, go, hey, I've 

456
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:54,000
kicked that off or I now want 
to, you know, progress why not 

457
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,200
giving them the opportunities to
grow as individuals within your 

458
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:03,600
projects and programs giving 
them the visibility is Leaky and

459
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:04,800
supporting them. 
Right? 

460
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,600
So I think the biggest factor in
all of this and Joe touched on 

461
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,900
it is being there as a leader. 
To kind of, you know, support 

462
00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:17,700
your teams, and when your teams 
are, you know, really thrashing 

463
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:21,700
it and really going through this
year, you create an environment 

464
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:25,900
that you just go right down to. 
Let's, let's take some time out.

465
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:30,000
Let's enjoy our winds too far, 
and giving them some of that 

466
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,000
breathing space is absolutely 
key. 

467
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:38,300
So when you take what we've just
said, and you take it within an 

468
00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,000
organizational context, it's 
very different to. 

469
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,900
If you are delivering a project 
to somebody, that's a shot down,

470
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:49,200
the road versus an NHS 
organization or a global 

471
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,700
organization. 
Because now when you're working 

472
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:55,000
in a global organization, you 
have another level of complexity

473
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,800
as well. 
You're working with cultural 

474
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,800
changes time zones, you know, 
you're working with different 

475
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,400
attitudes and different. 
No, you know takes on you know 

476
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,900
how I may have run a project 
versus another person. 

477
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:09,600
May have run a project. 
You now need to build another 

478
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,800
level of relationship. 
With that person to understand 

479
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,100
what some of their history and 
experiences are and come to a 

480
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,500
like-minded way of working. 
So in a lot of global 

481
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:22,400
organizations are you will have 
the roles of relationship 

482
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,200
managers and I find that there 
are apps that Yuki and 

483
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,000
fundamental to kind of helping 
us understand some of the 

484
00:28:29,008 --> 00:28:32,000
cultural gaps as well. 
And and I think it's absolutely 

485
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:34,500
Absolutely fascinating. 
When you play in that field 

486
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:38,600
because bringing people along 
the change, whether it's, you 

487
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:45,400
know, UK or Global or, you know,
the finance department in a, in 

488
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,500
a start-up, you're still working
with people and so understanding

489
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:54,100
people and what they may need to
do or what made, they may need 

490
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:56,700
to change. 
They need to be changing in a 

491
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:02,000
psychological safe space and 
working with them to understand.

492
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,300
Their fears and hopes around, 
you know, how do they want, how 

493
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:10,300
do they see this project or 
program changing lives or 

494
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:13,300
changing the playing field that 
they're working in? 

495
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,000
And I think the other element is
is as a leader you you know 

496
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:23,300
working to deliver this change 
but it's not just a framework 

497
00:29:23,300 --> 00:29:26,700
that we're now following. 
Yeah it is about the change all 

498
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:30,100
the way through from the minute 
that anybody initiates a project

499
00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:33,100
all the way through to China and
then also, So, they're after. 

500
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,000
Yeah, we don't just deliver a 
project and go. 

501
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,100
There you go. 
See you later. 

502
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:40,800
You know, we have to manage our 
end users expectations. 

503
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,600
Because now they're looking A 
Whole New World of. 

504
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,000
You've just switched us on to 
this whole world. 

505
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,200
We don't want an element of 
surprise. 

506
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:51,300
So as much information, you can 
provide early on. 

507
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,400
So there are very little 
surprises throughout that 

508
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,000
journey and that's absolutely 
fundamental working with the 

509
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,000
leadership to, you know, Cascade
and move those messages around. 

510
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:05,100
And having a supportive 
leadership is absolutely 

511
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:07,700
fundamental to a lot of the 
programs that I work with. 

512
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:11,600
And I'm lucky to have that, you 
know, to be able to have that 

513
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,100
relationship with them to, you 
know, raise any issues and know 

514
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:19,100
and have the confidence that 
they are going to be resolved, 

515
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:21,700
or I'm going to resolve the 
issues for my team's. 

516
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,800
So having that trust that 
Honesty, you know, those 

517
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,800
individuals are able to come up 
to you and and provide them with

518
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,300
that growth mindset. 
And playing field more than 

519
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:34,900
anything. 
I try and make my projects as 

520
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:38,000
fun as possible making term at 
the same time. 

521
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,300
You know. 
We do have so many challenges 

522
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:42,800
around that. 
Yes, absolutely. 

523
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,800
And I mean even when you mention
working on a global scale with 

524
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,200
the different communication 
Styles and individuals that's 

525
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,000
just a challenge on itself. 
But yeah, really interesting 

526
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,300
when you talk about creating 
that comfortable environment and

527
00:30:56,300 --> 00:30:59,800
obviously identifying the 
drivers Joe I'm going to come 

528
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,700
back. 
My next question is going to tap

529
00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:05,100
into The, you said a moment ago,
which is you mentioned the why? 

530
00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:08,200
And what's the wind up? 
I always like to kind of focus 

531
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,600
on not. 
So, I think the next question 

532
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,000
really would be to both of you. 
How I mean, how can you imagine 

533
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,600
the impact that you're having on
people on the outcome and that 

534
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,300
really links into to that? 
What's the Y? 

535
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:23,300
So who would like to pick that 
one up first? 

536
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,000
Yeah I will if that's okay. 
And sometimes mentions two 

537
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,900
really critical things in her 
lasts. 

538
00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:36,000
Of comments about this and it 
all sort of it really all needs 

539
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,500
to be underpinned with, why are 
we doing it? 

540
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:43,700
And people will buy into a 
process, they won't buy into a, 

541
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:51,400
you know, a financial element or
a particular, you know, way of 

542
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,000
doing something, you know, you 
say, oh well, we need to do this

543
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,600
differently. 
What they buy into is a sense of

544
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,800
purpose, they buy into a Cause 
Or a belief or a sense of 

545
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,100
belonging. 
And so, the starting point with 

546
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:12,800
yourself and with your team is, 
why why are you doing this? 

547
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,500
What's what's the purpose of it?
What's the aim of it? 

548
00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,000
What is it that you are going to
achieve? 

549
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,700
Because people people will rally
to a cause and I'll say, yes, 

550
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:25,900
that's something I believe in 
that something, and it's an 

551
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:28,400
emotional response. 
It's something a personal. 

552
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,500
And, and when you're starting 
out with this, You've got to 

553
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,100
have a really clear sense of 
why. 

554
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:38,100
Why is it important? 
Why is it going to make a 

555
00:32:38,108 --> 00:32:41,000
difference? 
What's the the impact? 

556
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,800
It's going to have both on the 
world on your customer base or 

557
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,400
what's the value to them? 
And to you and doing it by 

558
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,200
setting the wire. 
You can bring people together to

559
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,900
help to shape the how. 
And the what, and if you've got 

560
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:01,900
that ultimately that keeps you 
connected that, you have that 

561
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:03,800
Cool. 
Was that? 

562
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,500
We're going to work on this. 
This is a really important 

563
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,600
thing. 
This is why it helps you get 

564
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,900
past the individual conflicts 
that you might have where people

565
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:18,000
are, wedded, pursue particular 
ways of working or particular, 

566
00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:21,600
you know, what they want to do 
or particular ideas, because if 

567
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,400
you can bring people back to the
thing that join them together in

568
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,300
the first place, which is the, 
why are we doing this? 

569
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,900
It helps to get beyond the 
individual and keep people. 

570
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,600
People focused. 
And therefore, it becomes not a 

571
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,400
personal thing. 
If your particular idea isn't 

572
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,300
followed or that particular way 
of working isn't going to be the

573
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:44,800
one that we take. 
If you keep people focused on 

574
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,000
the Y and then you set your 
measures and outcomes linked to 

575
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,400
that why? 
And how do we know which Eve 

576
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,400
that that's the thing for me 
that is really critical in terms

577
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,300
of setting the team up to start 
with the Team Dynamics. 

578
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:04,400
But also they're going to go out
with Conviction and with passion

579
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,900
and with purpose, when they talk
to stakeholders and customers 

580
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:13,100
and the ends of users and 
they're going to take that 

581
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,300
passion and and commitments and 
in going to infect others with 

582
00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:20,199
it, they're going to infuse that
and that's what gets people to 

583
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:21,900
join in. 
That's what gets people to go 

584
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,199
on. 
The journey is that sense of of 

585
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,000
belief and belonging and wanting
to be a part of something. 

586
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,900
And for me, there's some 
techniques you can use to help 

587
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,199
help to get people shaping that 
in a practical way. 

588
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:40,800
We've done some work with dr. 
Tammy watch horn, who 

589
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,100
facilitates training around 
Lego, serious play. 

590
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,500
And what we've done as a group 
and around the project 

591
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:52,800
profession program, we did this 
a couple of years ago to start 

592
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,500
with. 
We brought volunteers from 

593
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:59,600
across the NHS who never met 
before they just said, yeah, 

594
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,300
this is something I'd like to be
involved in Brought them 

595
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:06,400
together for a two-day workshop 
and collectively over that two 

596
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,700
days. 
We built the project profession 

597
00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:14,800
out of Lego, we built the 
component parts, we built the 

598
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,900
connections, we built the 
challenges and the issues, and 

599
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:21,100
everybody played a part in 
contributed and helped to shape 

600
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:23,200
that. 
And what that meant was that the

601
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,200
end of those two days. 
We had built respect, we built 

602
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,100
understanding. 
We built a in different 

603
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:34,100
perspective. 
Has and it meant that we had a 

604
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:41,700
both a very holistic and well 
structured model for what we 

605
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:45,300
wanted to achieve. 
But everybody in that room, had 

606
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:49,400
collectively contributed to it 
and therefore ultimately bought 

607
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,100
into it and it's like yes this 
is what we collectively are 

608
00:35:52,107 --> 00:35:56,200
going to do and that set the 
tone for us, then going on that 

609
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,800
journey to collectively deliver 
on that. 

610
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:01,900
And that was a really effective 
way of getting people. 

611
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,900
Pulled to, to build to buy into 
the why to help to then build 

612
00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:10,000
the what and the how you're 
going to go and go forward and 

613
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,300
deliver on it. 
So Simonson ex works, start with

614
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,500
why is really important place to
start. 

615
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:20,400
Don't start with the how other 
what start with the why get 

616
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,400
people together helped to shape 
it and then you can work out how

617
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:25,700
you're going to take that 
forward. 

618
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:30,100
Fantastic excellent. 
And so have you got a view where

619
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:33,900
on the y-yes? 
Absolutely, I think I think 

620
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,900
there's just it's such a large 
topic gabbing. 

621
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,900
I don't think we've got enough 
time, but I think to Joe's 

622
00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:44,500
point, right? 
She mentions the five we often 

623
00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:47,400
on our programs. 
You know, we have an initiative 

624
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,200
called the five why's. 
Yeah, you know, in a process 

625
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,900
Improvement programs, any 
programs that we start, we will 

626
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,200
start off with the why white? 
Then we'll move on to Let's map 

627
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,000
out how we work today. 
Let's really understand and 

628
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,900
quite often, that's a 
revelation. 

629
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:05,300
Shouldn't in its own, right? 
Because your they're doing one 

630
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:08,100
piece of your job. 
You're not always fully aware of

631
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:11,100
the end-to-end process that you 
are working to and what is 

632
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:14,400
achievement that alone will 
bring people together in a 

633
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,900
workshop. 
So I always use my business on 

634
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:21,900
this to work on these kind of 
sessions and really spend the 

635
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:25,100
time and understand. 
Why are we doing this? 

636
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:28,700
You know, and make sure we've 
got the four problem statement 

637
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,700
their map out the as is. 
Now let's look at at the to be 

638
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:34,100
World. 
We've got some high level 

639
00:37:34,100 --> 00:37:36,700
requirements. 
Let's understand our tube you 

640
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,500
world and I think to Joe's point
you can do that in isolation in 

641
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:43,600
certain groups. 
But the more people that can 

642
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,900
feed into that process in its 
own right will help by start to 

643
00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:52,700
buy in and also unravel any 
think that we you know may not 

644
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:55,200
have initially captured where 
human at the end of the day, 

645
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,300
we're not going to know or 
everybody's pieces so the more 

646
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:01,800
we can Encompass those folks 
into those sessions. 

647
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:07,000
The better and they will feel 
part of making and creating that

648
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,200
to be world. 
So, when we talk about, how can 

649
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,000
you measure that, giving them 
the platform and the open 

650
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,400
opportunities to be involved and
how we shape that to be world is

651
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,000
absolutely critical because 
everybody will bring in 

652
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,300
different experiences. 
We've got people at our 

653
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:27,000
organization that I've been 
here, 45 years, you know, they 

654
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,300
will bring experiences that we 
have got no idea about your 

655
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:32,500
problems. 
Statements. 

656
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:36,700
And I think that when we look at
these pieces and when we do 

657
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:40,000
these activities really focused 
on who needs to be there and 

658
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,900
what do they bring to the table?
And ultimately, you know, Joe 

659
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:46,700
touched on this bring in a team 
Dynamic, that means that they're

660
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:49,400
adding value, you know, they're 
moving the needle, they're 

661
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,600
helping us improve the way that 
we're moving forward, and 

662
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,200
they've had a part to play in 
that because their experiences 

663
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,300
of added value is absolutely 
key. 

664
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:03,100
And as a group, you know, having
that energy Raymond having that 

665
00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:07,700
belief and and knowing that I 
have got the best team here to 

666
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:12,000
give give us what we know today 
and will also help me drive any 

667
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,400
changes going forward. 
Is actually a proud moment for 

668
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,800
any of the change managers or 
any of the the project managers 

669
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,000
because actually, you're all 
working collectively. 

670
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:26,500
Now, one of the things that, you
know, we try and do to measure 

671
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:29,200
the outcome of, you know, what 
we're trying to do on our 

672
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,700
people, as well as how well the 
systems have been Adopted is we 

673
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:36,200
have a certain rollers you know,
change calms and training. 

674
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:37,700
We have a whole department for 
that. 

675
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:41,500
I don't any of our programs. 
We do tend to involve them early

676
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:45,300
on and we've had like a 
fantastic, you know, sort of 

677
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:48,600
carpool, kind of, you know, 
promotion of a product. 

678
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,300
And it gets a little bit 
competitive between some of the 

679
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:54,300
leaders sometimes and we are, we
are in is quite nice to show you

680
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:57,900
that right in a playful manner 
and we have an interview, you 

681
00:39:57,908 --> 00:40:00,700
know, promoting the program from
day one. 

682
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,800
Now, in a lot of our Coughs. 
We tend to have them up front so

683
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,400
they can answer any immediate 
questions. 

684
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:11,500
And I think when we revert back 
to the kind of side key of, you 

685
00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:16,000
know how individuals work, you 
know, I'm sure Joe's in this 

686
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,500
place in this place as well into
say, well, what are we actually 

687
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:23,800
delivering to, you know, how do 
I actually feel about this, you 

688
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,000
know, and an opening up that 
platforming giving them a voice 

689
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,900
of how they feel and what 
they're willing to do when you 

690
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:34,600
know actually You know, voicing 
how this could possibly go 

691
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,300
wrong, you know, is good 
information is all really good 

692
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,600
information to kind of build in,
from, from the start. 

693
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,000
So, when we look at those 
pieces, we really do need to 

694
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,400
focus on, you know, strong 
leadership. 

695
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,900
Are people involved in the 
process of making that new kind 

696
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,800
of system and that new way of 
working? 

697
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:00,900
Do we have the right new roles 
and responsibilities, you know, 

698
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:03,400
going forward? 
If we opened up even more 

699
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:08,000
opportunities for our teams and 
I think kind of the growth 

700
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,700
mindset is the way forward. 
So I think all of the 

701
00:41:11,707 --> 00:41:14,900
methodologies play a part. 
But again, under Underneath It, 

702
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:18,700
All it is about the people and 
how we work with them and how we

703
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:22,300
deliver that message and how we 
set up our workshops. 

704
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:26,000
That's absolutely key. 
Fantastic. 

705
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,400
That's, that's really 
interesting. 

706
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,000
And and, and obviously, just 
with your point there about 

707
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,600
people, there's talk briefly 
about the role of mentoring and 

708
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,700
all of this mean, we've spoke 
earlier. 

709
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:37,900
Joe, you're from the public 
sector and stab your friend. 

710
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:41,800
The private sector both with 
years and years of experience in

711
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,300
and around changing project 
management. 

712
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:47,600
So how do we individuals process
and problem solve with in their 

713
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,300
roles? 
And if you've got any thoughts 

714
00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:55,500
on role models, Joe do we can we
uh pick that up, please? 

715
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:02,300
So so for me all of this really 
starts with the self because 

716
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,600
ultimately you can't really 
influence other people unless 

717
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,200
you can influence yourself first
and and I think for me that 

718
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,800
leadership role is absolutely 
critical because that sets the 

719
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,100
tone for everything else as 
Leaders. 

720
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:20,500
We have a responsibility to 
Assad said to set the culture 

721
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:22,600
set, the behaviors that we 
approach. 

722
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,800
Create the psychological safety.
And if that's not something that

723
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,400
you're very familiar with, then 
Amy Edmondson book. 

724
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,400
The Fearless organization is a 
really great starting point. 

725
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:37,300
How do you create an open 
supportive engaging environment 

726
00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:41,900
that allows people to flourish 
and if you can do that you can 

727
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:47,800
then enable them to become 
really successful and deliver in

728
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,200
their own specialist way as 
well. 

729
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,300
So the thing about starting with
yourself With is ensuring that 

730
00:42:54,300 --> 00:43:00,000
you feel not only safe to be 
able to talk, but also part of 

731
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,200
it's about being allowed to be 
vulnerable. 

732
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,100
And that's saying we don't know,
all the answers. 

733
00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:08,900
We sometimes struggle with the 
pressures. 

734
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:13,800
We are doubt ourselves in terms 
of the direction of travel 

735
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,400
sometimes, and some of that 
authenticity and their openness 

736
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,400
is really important because if 
you create that as an 

737
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,000
environment, then others Will it
be able to to express that 

738
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,400
themselves and then you can deal
with those fears and those 

739
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,500
emotions and those needs. 
So Brent a Brown's book daring 

740
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:36,500
greatly I think is really 
important one for as an 

741
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:41,300
individual to think about 
yourself and how vulnerable you 

742
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:45,400
feel sometimes and how you can 
be open about that to create an 

743
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,300
environment that then is open to
others. 

744
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:52,600
Amy M is also has some really 
great resources around team. 

745
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:55,300
X and team creation. 
So, having created that 

746
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:59,300
psychological safety, she is got
a book on teaming, teaming for 

747
00:43:59,300 --> 00:44:03,300
Innovation, extreme teaming and 
you know, difficult and changing

748
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:06,800
circumstances and whether, you 
know, you're in the public 

749
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,700
sector where you might have 
perhaps longer and more 

750
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,600
established teams to work on 
things or whether you've got a 

751
00:44:12,607 --> 00:44:16,200
lot of short-term changes where 
you're bringing people together 

752
00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:21,900
to work collaboratively in a 
short impactful way, you need to

753
00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:24,200
know the tools. 
Techniques to be able to do that

754
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,900
in order to support that team to
be set up and to run really 

755
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:31,500
quickly and effectively and then
that's about supporting the 

756
00:44:31,508 --> 00:44:35,600
individuals within that team and
understanding who they are, 

757
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:42,300
what's important to them what is
their their particular Dynamics.

758
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:46,900
So that you can build trust and 
respect and openness within the 

759
00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:50,400
team where everybody is valued. 
I think for me those are 

760
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,900
critical starting points. 
That's really interesting. 

761
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:57,300
And I think there's always times
when we all doubt ourselves. 

762
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,700
I mean, I know there's a lot of 
people who made start new jobs 

763
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,300
and there's that impostor 
syndrome which which Creeps in, 

764
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:06,000
and by all means, I'm sure that 
could be another podcast or 

765
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,400
webinar that we could do a whole
session on. 

766
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,800
But so I'll have you got a view 
one on on this aspect of things.

767
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,400
Absolutely. 
And I think again, I think Joe's

768
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,900
touched on ta a fair bit there, 
you know, it's about the self 

769
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,000
and others. 
How do you work with others and 

770
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,700
being a K within yourself. 
When we look at role modeling 

771
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:29,200
and mentoring, you know, it does
start within yourself 

772
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,700
identifying, you know kind of 
what what qualities you want to 

773
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:35,000
improve. 
What values do you have versus, 

774
00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:38,400
you know, what values you want 
to kind of develop over the 

775
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,500
years is key and I think that 
continual learning and that 

776
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:46,100
wanted that hunger right to 
continually learn is key. 

777
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:50,100
I think again, you know, Joe's 
mentioned some brilliant authors

778
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:52,500
there and I've read a few of 
those you know, for me. 

779
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,200
Me I think really the 
fundamental idea of a role model

780
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,500
is somebody that you look to and
really kind of not necessarily 

781
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:03,500
look as a hero but like look at 
their qualities and values and 

782
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:06,900
actually, you know what, I know 
I have confidence in that person

783
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:09,600
that if I go to them and 
they're, you know, I raised an 

784
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,400
issue, we're going to resolve 
this not to, you know, in a 

785
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,900
bullish way or anything like 
that. 

786
00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:16,600
But actually collectively, we 
will be able to work through 

787
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,100
this and I have confidence that 
no problem is, you know, too big

788
00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:22,300
or too small and we get through 
this. 

789
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:25,700
And I think, I think, you know, 
from a self perspective, there 

790
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:28,900
are some really good learnings 
out there and I think, you know,

791
00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:32,100
the initial kind of mindset that
comes to his Armstrong's 

792
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:36,400
organization in the mind. 
You know, it's really how you 

793
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:38,200
are network within your 
organization. 

794
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,300
How well do you actually know 
your organization and and really

795
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:44,000
looking within and going? 
I guess, where do I fit in this?

796
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,000
We talk about the person within 
the role and and then with the 

797
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,600
organization, you know, in ta 
and and it's like actually needs

798
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,500
to be the perfect triangle, you 
know, everything. 

799
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,000
Are all lines equal well, you're
not always going to be in the 

800
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,000
right role or you may not have 
the right opportunities and 

801
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,000
actually having the open 
discussion with your managers 

802
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,600
and generally kind of mentors 
around your organization. 

803
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,800
And then also looking for 
mentors, outside your 

804
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,800
organization. 
It's absolutely key. 

805
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:15,100
The other piece is around, you 
know, improving the way that how

806
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:17,600
do I work? 
Well, with, you know, all these 

807
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,900
members? 
Well, there's a book called by 

808
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:22,500
Anita mountain and Chris 
Davidson which is about working.

809
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:27,800
Together and that really hones 
in on, you know, are the 

810
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,300
different kind of cultures and 
the way that you work and 

811
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:33,700
techniques and and tropes. 
So there are some techniques to 

812
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:37,200
soft techniques that are 
mentioned in that book around 

813
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,000
pieces of that. 
And then when you're 

814
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,500
facilitating workshops and you 
know kind of pulling together, 

815
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:45,700
some key areas, like I've just 
said, you know, the as is 

816
00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:50,300
mapping the as has world, 
there's a book by gray brown 

817
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,400
Which is about gamestorming. 
So there are, this is just a 

818
00:47:54,408 --> 00:47:58,800
book full of techniques that you
can possibly use within any of 

819
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,400
your projects. 
And it's it's a great go-to 

820
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,500
guide with in tact actually have
a look at those pieces. 

821
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:09,200
Now, if you're working in an 
organization that is more 

822
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,100
reactive. 
There's a book called The 

823
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:13,900
anxious organization by Jeffrey 
Miller. 

824
00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:17,700
And I love that book because I 
think it brings a talks about 

825
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:21,800
the hot potato and the 
six-second vacations that You 

826
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,500
know, you can have that there 
are times when you do need to go

827
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:28,800
into some difficult discussions 
and team discussions and you 

828
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,600
need to just take a step back 
and bring back. 

829
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,700
What Joe was saying that 
positive positive kind of Next 

830
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:37,700
Step. 
How do we work through this? 

831
00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:41,900
Because no problems, you know, 
anything that we can't resolve. 

832
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:45,100
So I think that there are a 
number of areas and 

833
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:50,400
organizations do promote having 
mentors and having a look at 

834
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,600
your next step. 
And I think it's really 

835
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,100
important that as an individual.
You know what it is that you are

836
00:48:57,100 --> 00:49:01,000
looking for within yourself to 
improve and be able to 

837
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:06,000
articulate that because people 
want to help and people want to 

838
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,400
drive change, not just within 
the organization. 

839
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,600
But as an individual and grow 
people and no organization will 

840
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,200
ever, you know, look at somebody
that's great and, and actually 

841
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,200
just stopped their development. 
You know, we'll keep developing 

842
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,900
them as an individual. 
And it's Putting that you look 

843
00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:24,900
towards that Progressive kind of
person ago, who will help me 

844
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:29,700
grow as an individual and take 
me to the next level and help me

845
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:32,600
get better at what I do. 
And it's not always about 

846
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,500
climbing the ladder either. 
It's sometimes looking sideways 

847
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:38,900
and looking at those skill sets 
that, you know, we're not all 

848
00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:43,500
perfect at, but we can tweak 
Fantastic. 

849
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:46,200
Thank you. 
So up and you ride with regards 

850
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,000
to mentoring, we've certainly 
into research, a p.m. conducted 

851
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,500
recently. 
Had a lot of calls and feedback 

852
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:55,200
from our members to ask for more
support around mentoring. 

853
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,800
So at the beginning of the year,
we set up a mentoring platform 

854
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:03,400
and we've seen a huge growth 
with both mentors and mentees. 

855
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,700
And I'm pretty sure that my 
understanding is that when 

856
00:50:06,700 --> 00:50:10,100
someone is at a chartered 
status, it is very much about 

857
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:14,400
giving back to the, to the 
community and I think that's a 

858
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,400
fantastic way to to move 
forward. 

859
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,400
So if anyone's interested in 
that too, to check out the the 

860
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,900
website I'm conscious of time. 
So I've only got, I think one 

861
00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:26,600
question left and then I just 
want to get your guys take with 

862
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,000
regards to some recommendations 
but there's a lot of resources 

863
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,800
and books that you've already 
kind of tapped into and we'll 

864
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,700
get on to that in a moment. 
But probably my final question 

865
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:39,200
really is just to find out your 
views really on some of the 

866
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,800
young unsaid aspects that the 
mythology Don't actually teach 

867
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,600
you. 
Should we go to sob and then Joe

868
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:52,500
if that's okay, So so I think 
for me creating that autonomy, 

869
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:56,900
yeah, within your teams and 
actually setting out your sort 

870
00:50:56,900 --> 00:51:01,300
of how you expect, you know, 
what your contract is with your 

871
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:04,000
team. 
So, you know, I often say, you 

872
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:05,400
know, I'm not going to clock 
watch. 

873
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:06,900
I'm not going to, you know, do 
this. 

874
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:11,200
I just want you to be open 
honest and raise issues, you 

875
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,900
have the autonomy to play for. 
If we work with a process that 

876
00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:17,800
does not work in this context, 
speak to me will absolutely 

877
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,900
work. 
To try a new way. 

878
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:22,900
And I will support them through 
that. 

879
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,100
So creating that environment to 
give him the autonomy, and the 

880
00:51:27,100 --> 00:51:30,800
authority, and the permissions 
to have a play and work freely 

881
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,500
within an environment, to make 
it to do a deliverable is 

882
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:37,200
absolutely key, you know, it's 
that trusted place. 

883
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,100
It's creating the one team 
mentality. 

884
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,800
It's creating that kind of space
to embrace change, right? 

885
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:46,900
Every day. 
You know, you can Embrace change

886
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:48,700
and there's no black and white. 
White. 

887
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:51,800
There is this gray space that we
are playing in and giving them 

888
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:57,100
the space with without too much 
restrictions on time. 

889
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,500
And and I know time is wise a 
difficult one, right? 

890
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:05,000
Because you are working towards 
a goal but giving them that 

891
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,600
space to think play and build 
relationships but then also you 

892
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,200
know bringing that a fun element
of you know, making sure that 

893
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,700
they don't have any outside 
noise and that they are 

894
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:19,300
absolutely focused. 
Is that I think for A the 

895
00:52:19,300 --> 00:52:23,100
unsaid, but the list is endless.
I'm sure Jo Jo will touch on 

896
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:27,200
loads more to that. 
And I think two people will 

897
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:31,200
never deliver the same. 
I think that that's that I'd 

898
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,600
love to test this Theory out at 
some point. 

899
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,400
Thanks help. 
I think I think Sam's really 

900
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,800
cuts the heart of it there, 
which is that the methodology 

901
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,700
is. 
And the approaches to say, 

902
00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:49,100
setting up the teams or to 
running programs or projects 

903
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,600
tend to be very formulaic. 
But actually ultimately, we 

904
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,600
deliver we're working with 
individuals with individual 

905
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,700
people, with individual sets of 
talents and interests, and 

906
00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:03,100
passions and capabilities. 
And that thing about creating 

907
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,700
sort of autonomy is about 
understanding each What is it? 

908
00:53:07,700 --> 00:53:09,400
They're passionate about. 
What do they care about? 

909
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,700
Will they naturally good at and 
shape the roll around the 

910
00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:14,800
individual? 
Not the other way around, 

911
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:19,600
because if you, if you shape the
rolled around the person and you

912
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,700
play to their strengths and you 
support their development and 

913
00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:27,400
you give them the autonomy and 
you give them a clear purpose, 

914
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,300
that they've sort of signed up 
to and bought him. 

915
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:33,300
And they will do amazing things 
and you don't need to then sort 

916
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:36,600
of do all of the sort of like 
the oversight and management. 

917
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:39,800
And stuff because they will they
will just go off and and and 

918
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,700
deliver because they believe in 
it, they're able to do it. 

919
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:46,100
You given them the tools and the
skills to be able to do it. 

920
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:48,800
And that's how change will 
really happen. 

921
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,800
And the flow of success will 
really come from that. 

922
00:53:55,300 --> 00:53:58,600
And for me the starting point 
with that is leading by example 

923
00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:02,200
and and that's about knowing 
yourself. 

924
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,400
Are you in the right place? 
Doing the right thing. 

925
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,500
Are you do you have the 
autonomy? 

926
00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:09,100
You have that Keen. 
Sense of purpose. 

927
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:11,500
Are you doing something? 
You're really passionate about 

928
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:13,800
because you can't instill it in 
others, if you don't have it 

929
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,500
yourself. 
So, so for me, the thing about 

930
00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:21,400
all of this, and all of the 
change, kind of elements is 

931
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:25,900
start with yourself. 
Look, inside, are you happy with

932
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:27,500
where you are and what you're 
doing? 

933
00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:30,200
And are you passionate and you 
have autonomy and do you have 

934
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,900
the skills needed to do it? 
Do you love what you do? 

935
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:34,900
Can you infuse that love into 
others? 

936
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:39,900
Because if not, then that's the 
place to start, and that's the 

937
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:43,600
place to start for yourself, and
then to support others with, and

938
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,500
that's not in the methodologies.
Brilliant. 

939
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:51,300
Okay, so in wrapping up, if for 
people who are listening to, 

940
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,600
this is there, what, what do you
want people to take away from 

941
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,500
this into session? 
Is there any, any kind of real 

942
00:54:57,500 --> 00:55:02,400
key takeaways, any any resources
books articles websites, that 

943
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:03,900
you would recommend? 
And by all means we can get 

944
00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:08,400
those uploaded into the into the
the podcast itself. 

945
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:15,200
SOB over to you. 
I think, for me, it's let's 

946
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,800
think outside the box, think of 
what change, you are bringing 

947
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,200
every single day. 
And look at the why you're doing

948
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,300
it, you know, is it bringing 
passion to Joe's point? 

949
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:27,700
Do you enjoy what you're doing? 
And if not, then let's really. 

950
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:29,700
Look at that. 
Brilliant. 

951
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:31,400
Okay. 
What about some books? 

952
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:32,600
I think you've mentioned a 
couple. 

953
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,800
There were. 
I think gamestorming was one. 

954
00:55:36,100 --> 00:55:39,500
Was that grey-brown? 
Yes, yes, that's correct. 

955
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,300
Working together by Anita 
mountain and who was the what 

956
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,000
was it the anxious organization 
if I'm right there was that one 

957
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,300
the anxious organization is a 
great read, Jeffrey Miller 

958
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:53,500
wonderful. 
Thank you and Jo if we could go 

959
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:55,600
over to please. 
Yeah. 

960
00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:00,700
So so for me the starting point 
with your own journey is perhaps

961
00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:04,600
looking at brain a Browns work 
around daring greatly because 

962
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,700
that's about understanding 
yourself and your motivations 

963
00:56:07,700 --> 00:56:11,200
and feeling. 
Getting into a place where 

964
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,700
you're comfortable being 
vulnerable and, and being 

965
00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:18,400
authentic with others and taking
that risk, and I think that's 

966
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,000
really critical thing. 
And then talking about the team 

967
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,200
and how you support the team to 
enable them. 

968
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,500
So Dan Pink's book drive is all 
about team motivation and how 

969
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:33,900
you shape the roll around the 
individual. 

970
00:56:33,900 --> 00:56:38,800
And then there's Amy Edmondson 
is work around the Fearless. 

971
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,900
Creating psychological safety, 
her books around, teaming, 

972
00:56:42,900 --> 00:56:45,700
teaming for Innovation, and 
extreme teaming, that's all 

973
00:56:45,700 --> 00:56:48,700
really great stuff. 
And then in terms of 

974
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:57,400
understanding your, The Wider 
organization and the customers 

975
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:02,000
and the end users, there's some 
really great stuff from dr. 

976
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,400
Tammy watch horns written a book
called The change ninja and 

977
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,100
that's about and it's quite a 
fun interactive book that helps 

978
00:57:09,100 --> 00:57:11,400
sometimes. 
Yeah, helps you understand 

979
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:15,100
different choices and the impact
of different choices and and 

980
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:17,900
therefore gets you to think 
about how you might approach 

981
00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:20,100
this ahead of time. 
So to achieve some really great 

982
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:24,300
outcomes and get some great 
engagement Melanie, Franklin's 

983
00:57:24,300 --> 00:57:28,600
work around, agile, change 
agent, and agile, change coach 

984
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,700
and thinking about the the 
change manager as the coach 

985
00:57:31,700 --> 00:57:36,200
rather than as somebody who is 
pushing or delivering. 

986
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,600
It's about how you engage with 
others around that. 

987
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,500
And And as that SOB has 
mentioned. 

988
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,100
So Tim Kris, he's written some 
books for pro side but also we 

989
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:49,800
there's some great models and 
methods to support that change 

990
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,900
process. 
But ultimately Simonson ex works

991
00:57:52,900 --> 00:57:57,000
start with why, why, why are you
doing this? 

992
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,300
What are you passionate about? 
How can you articulate that for 

993
00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:04,800
yourself, for others? 
So that when you start this 

994
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,400
journey, you've got a really 
important and passionate way of 

995
00:58:09,500 --> 00:58:12,000
Being able to convey it. 
And that's the thing that's 

996
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:13,900
going to get people to come 
along with you. 

997
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,000
Yeah. 
If I may just add another couple

998
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,400
of books on that one, you know, 
as Jose speaking, I remember 

999
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,400
reading Stephen covey's, the 7 
Habits of Highly Effective. 

1000
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:28,300
Oh yeah, but that was like 
fantastic, classic fundamentals 

1001
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,800
are the Armstrong organization 
in mind. 

1002
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,900
That that's a fantastic 
background read if you get time 

1003
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:40,200
to very small book but again it 
goes into you know how You can 

1004
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,000
still the psyche into really 
understanding the organization. 

1005
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,000
You're in, you know, leadership 
teams coaching by Peter Hawkins 

1006
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,900
and then the one then actually 
didn't crop up. 

1007
00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:54,200
Until Joe mentioned about 
Dynamic teams was the group 

1008
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:59,100
dynamics for high-risk teams by 
Amy Farrah, that is a fantastic.

1009
00:58:59,100 --> 00:59:02,000
Small little book and probably 
is really good to read over a 

1010
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,600
weekend that goes into, you 
know, how do you create this 

1011
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,100
high-risk teams? 
But again, you know, the topic 

1012
00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:11,500
of this Whole conversation is 
that, you know, it's all about 

1013
00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:15,400
people and how you create those 
teams really does depend on the 

1014
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,000
environments that you work with 
in. 

1015
00:59:19,900 --> 00:59:23,000
And I think there was one, Joe 
you mentioned it earlier on our 

1016
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,800
dear friend Carol lost a while. 
Yes. 

1017
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:27,800
Yes. 
And that's really all around 

1018
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,000
Neuroscience for projects and 
change management and that's 

1019
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,900
just coming out. 
So that's definitely one to look

1020
00:59:33,900 --> 00:59:38,000
into to understand how how 
people work so that you can work

1021
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,700
better with people. 
Fantastic, excellent. 

1022
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,600
Well, thank you very much, Joe 
Sal but I think we could have 

1023
00:59:44,900 --> 00:59:48,200
chatted for another hour, but 
that was really, really 

1024
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,200
interesting. 
I thought I've certainly learnt 

1025
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,600
a lot and take a lot away from 
this. 

1026
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,900
I'm sure our listeners have and 
I look forward to working with 

1027
00:59:55,900 --> 00:59:58,900
you again in the near future. 
Thank you very much. 

1028
00:59:59,300 --> 01:00:06,900
Thank you. 
Thanks to Joan solved for taking

1029
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:09,700
time, out to join, Gavin and 
conversation and to you for 

1030
01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:12,600
listening. 
If this episode has inspired you

1031
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,500
to find out more about leading 
change, all the science behind 

1032
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:18,800
teams behavior of full reading 
list is available in the episode

1033
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,800
description where you'll find 
links to the books, recommended 

1034
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,700
by Jones Saab. 
If you have any comments or 

1035
01:00:24,700 --> 01:00:29,600
feedback or suggestions, please 
contact us at a p.m. podcast at 

1036
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:34,400
think publishing .co.uk This 
podcast has been brought to you 

1037
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,400
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1038
01:00:37,900 --> 01:00:39,900
For more information visit to a 
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1039
01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:41,400
Dot org.uk,