Hello, and welcome to the APM Podcast.
APM is the chartered body for the project profession.
My name's Emma Devita, I'm editor of the Project Journal
and your host. In this episode, we ask what
makes a great project manager. As we often hear in this
podcast, being an effective project professional is about
more than just managing timelines and budgets.
It's also about creating a space where teams can thrive and
achieve goals together. But isn't that easier said than
done? And how can project managers
strike the right balance between technical skills and the
emotional intelligence needed to manage teams?
Throughout this episode, you'll hear from a range of project
professionals who shared with us their personal reflections on
the question, What makes a great project manager?
We hear from both apprentices and experienced hands, but
whether they've been managing projects for two years or 25,
all of their responses have some commonalities, with people
management being a central theme.
But what also emerges is that there's no single formula for
great project management. Fostering strong team dynamics,
building trust, staying calm under pressure and inspiring
optimism all are important, but truly great project managers
exhibit a blend of technical expertise, people's skills,
adaptability and yes, even a sense of humour.
After all, as one of our guests points out, given we spend so
much of our time at work, why not make it enjoyable?
So whether you're an inspiring project manager or seasoned
professional, listen on to hear more about what it takes to be
the best. First, let's hear from Jimmy
Wiyan, an associate director at Turner and Townsend.
In 2023, Jimmy was named Project Professional of the Year at the
APM Project Management Awards. He believes great project
managers need to blend several different skill sets together.
If you're really organised right and you pair that with people
skills, I think you're probably 7580% on the way of being a
really big project professional. I'd like to emphasise on these
two because I think a lot of people, wherever they are, can,
can, can pick this up and, and read it from today.
They could focus on that, that element of being organised.
And through that you're talking about collaborating, being able
to communicate and then becoming a sort of a, a master problem
solver, being analytical and knowing when to ask for support
and help as well. So that you get that bigger
picture of you because on projects you are focused on the
day-to-day. It's always good to have that
reach back to the sponsors or the programme managers who have
that kind of overarching oversight and that kind of helps
you keep you on on track. Being able to see things
through. I, I think that's a, that's an
incredible skill to have in, in the project environment, being
able to see things through and, and take an ownership of it.
So if you were trying to solve or issues in design and, and
trying to hit certain key milestones of completing design,
you know, spending a lot of time with designers and trying to
plan that out and seeing it into, you know, towards towards
the end. And there's so many elements
within a project coming from so many different parts.
If you focused on a few and just try to see all the way through
and taking that ownership, you'll be seen as quite
pragmatic as a result. So if you pair that all those
elements together, there's some skill sets.
I say we need to successful projects.
Next up is Linda Rawsthorne, who's head of the government
property profession. Sitting within the Cabinet
Office. Linda is responsible for the
strategy for the whole government estate, which covers
everything from hospitals to courts and offices.
Here she is reflecting on what makes a great project manager.
I suppose one of the things that I really see is it's about focus
and understanding. So it's the the looking down,
the knowing how much detail you need to know and how much you
don't, but also looking up and representing in the ecosystem.
We have a a phrase that we use which is Whitehall Ninja in
government, which is someone who knows their way into other
departments in order to find the right person to be supporting
the project so that different ministers get reports on the
projects so that there's much more understanding of what's
going on and where help is needed and where we can make a
difference. And I think being really honest
is a really key part of being a great project leader and
nurturing and talking about bringing on for the future and
the next sort of generation. But I suppose the thing that I
think is, is the best is effective delegation.
If you can empower the people nearest the decisions to make
the decisions, they understand all the aspects of it.
And yes, you might query and you might bring your experience to
challenge, but ultimately, if you can delegate decisions down
to the right level, that's where everybody comes in.
Because if everyone in your team's got ownership of the
project, you're on a winner. If people are just sitting there
along for the ride then it's going to be a very difficult
fight. Sticking with a government
theme, our next clip comes from Al Jason, Head of Project
Delivery, Centre of Excellence and Profession at UK Parliament,
who works on projects and programmes across the House of
Commons and the House of Lords. He thinks great project
management is partly about being an ambassador and having a
willingness to grow. I think it's a combination of
technical leadership and personal attributes as well.
So knowledge, skills and behaviours and it's about the
ability to inspire people to, to make a difference.
And I think a great project manager is someone who is
multifaceted, you know, who continuously want to develop
themselves. They're not afraid to try new
things, but it's also they're receptive to, you know, learning
lessons and using insights to make things better for their
projects or their initiatives. It's a combination of different
skills. You've got communication,
leadership, problem solving, decision making, and they need
to be an ambassador as well. They must have the ability to
foster strong team dynamics, build relationships, which is
very important because you could have the best projects, you
could have the best project, you know, manager in the world, but
you know, if you're unable to build relationships, then that
would make things a lot harder in delivering projects.
So someone who's able to balance the needs of, you know, the
teams, the organisations, but also your own personal needs as
a project delivery professional. So it's the combination of
different things that requires adaptability, flexibility and
the willingness to, you know, to learn and grow on a regular
basis. We turn now to the experiences
of two women who recently completed project management
apprenticeships with the National Trust.
We'll hear first from Rebecca Corcoran and then from Flora
Smith, both of whom I interviewed at the National
Trust property Deer and Park in southwest England last year.
Despite being early in their careers, both Rebecca and Flora
have already developed a keen sense of what makes a great
project manager. I would say to be adaptable to
be able to, you know, react well to change and because I think
projects are all about change and I don't, I don't think I've
yet to see a project because, you know, delivered to time,
cost and scope. So I think it's really important
to be able to be adaptable, like build that flexibility in to to
your programme, to your dealings with other people as well.
I think knowing when to be decisive and when to really take
that stand, but also knowing when to take a step back,
reflect, accept people and monitor yourself with other
people's emotions. I think being controlled in your
reactions to certain stressful events, say if a stakeholder is
really upset, make sure that they feel listened to even
though they're going against maybe what you believe in.
But it's just making sure that you're also, you're trying to
speak their language. And I think that's a huge lesson
is sort of understanding other people because I have seen it in
examples where it's come to loggerheads and there's some
immovability in it. And it's, it taught me like you
need to just accept people for how they're going to be.
But also you can guide them in a way and try and understand their
perspective and try and work with them.
But it's also OK at a point if it doesn't work like that.
But I think biggest skill is people.
And I definitely say I've seen a lot of goods with that sort of
people management, but I've also seen the flip side where it
doesn't work. But it's interesting to see how
you navigate the actual sort of problem that you have and how to
communicate with people in a way that they can understand.
And I think that is what I'd like to be as a project manager
is just to be understanding, but also know when to sort of stand
up for myself at the same time. I think that's such a delicate
balance as well. And it's a hard lesson, but
that's a big take away from it. And what I would like to be and
what people would say is like, wow, you've got great people
management skills. That's what I would like to sort
of come away with. Now let's hear from another
project professional who is a relatively early in her career,
Carolina Zettorska, who was recently promoted to senior
project manager at space rocket propulsion company Namo UK.
She shares why being a great project manager is partly about
keeping sight of the bigger picture of a project without
getting lost in their detail. So I.
Think organised, you need to be organised or you need to have
ways of becoming organised. So if you know, you're not, you
know, an organised person, there are ways of doing it for a job
and that's fine people skills because you do end up meeting
all sorts of different people and you need to be able to work
with them. Project management is definitely
a social, social job. I think just openness and like
eagerness to learn and maybe not be so detailed driven.
Because the one thing I struggled with as well when I
came over from engineering to PM ING is I wanted to be involved
in every single, you know, technical discussion and
technical solution and know how things work.
But actually at the PM, you don't need that very detail
orientated knowledge. You just need to know the top
level. But again, that's, that's the
sort of thing that you would learn when you take the, you
know, associate PM position or the if you do a placement to it,
you sort of draw a boundary of what, what you need to know
versus what would be a nice to have.
But again, having a mentor also helps because I, I don't think I
would be here without the support of of my manager,
especially in the early days when, yeah, just having someone
to say, look, this is the situation.
What should I do or how far do I go?
And for them to to just guide you through it is definitely
invaluable. Our final response comes from
Emma Carol Walsh, who's Director of Commercial and Project
Services at Aqua Consultants, Deputy leader of APMS Built
Environment Interest Network and a former APM board trustee.
She shares why a sense of fun is an underrated quality in a
project manager. To me, the best project managers
that I've had the privilege of working with, they've really
been very diligent, collaborative definitely, and
they've really sort of known that, sort of knew the trade.
So they're very skilled in things like managing risk, in
planning, stakeholder management.
So some of the real key competencies that we want our
project managers to have. But overall, I think for me it's
they've been really good fun, which you might think is a
really odd thing to say, but actually, you know, you spend a
lot of time at work, so you've got to be able to have fun even
when things are stressful. And that that really helps, I
think, to keep people and teams motivated.
So for me, yeah, a great project manager is, is lots of fun to
work with and actually have your back, really have your back and
able to support. You need to come with that level
of optimism and being able to motivate others because things
will be will come stressful on various times in projects.
And at the end of the day, we're all human beings and everyone
comes to work really to do a good job.
So it's about like, how do you make it fun?
How do you make it motivational and and how do you make it so
that you can actually support your team, because a project
manager is only ever as good as the team.
They've got the ring. The one.
That's it for this episode of the APM Podcast.
Thanks to all our guests for sharing their views on what
makes a great project manager. A couple of themes that really
stood out were the importance of people skills alongside great
organisation skills and technical competencies, and the
ability to really listen. We'd like to hear your thoughts
too. What do you think makes a great
project manager? Leave us a comment if you're a
Spotify user or e-mail us at APM Podcast at
thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to
you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession.
For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.