1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,200 Hello, and welcome to the APM Podcast. 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,920 APM is the chartered body for the project profession. 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,360 My name's Emma Devita, I'm editor of the Project Journal 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,440 and your host. In this episode, we ask what 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,680 makes a great project manager. As we often hear in this 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,720 podcast, being an effective project professional is about 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,360 more than just managing timelines and budgets. 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,920 It's also about creating a space where teams can thrive and 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,040 achieve goals together. But isn't that easier said than 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,880 done? And how can project managers 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,640 strike the right balance between technical skills and the 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,040 emotional intelligence needed to manage teams? 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,280 Throughout this episode, you'll hear from a range of project 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,320 professionals who shared with us their personal reflections on 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,080 the question, What makes a great project manager? 16 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,400 We hear from both apprentices and experienced hands, but 17 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,440 whether they've been managing projects for two years or 25, 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,960 all of their responses have some commonalities, with people 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:04,840 management being a central theme. 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,120 But what also emerges is that there's no single formula for 21 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,000 great project management. Fostering strong team dynamics, 22 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,520 building trust, staying calm under pressure and inspiring 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,120 optimism all are important, but truly great project managers 24 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,840 exhibit a blend of technical expertise, people's skills, 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,520 adaptability and yes, even a sense of humour. 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,400 After all, as one of our guests points out, given we spend so 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,200 much of our time at work, why not make it enjoyable? 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,080 So whether you're an inspiring project manager or seasoned 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,680 professional, listen on to hear more about what it takes to be 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:48,240 the best. First, let's hear from Jimmy 31 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,240 Wiyan, an associate director at Turner and Townsend. 32 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,800 In 2023, Jimmy was named Project Professional of the Year at the 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,240 APM Project Management Awards. He believes great project 34 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,360 managers need to blend several different skill sets together. 35 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,160 If you're really organised right and you pair that with people 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,320 skills, I think you're probably 7580% on the way of being a 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,680 really big project professional. I'd like to emphasise on these 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,320 two because I think a lot of people, wherever they are, can, 39 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,840 can, can pick this up and, and read it from today. 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,560 They could focus on that, that element of being organised. 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,560 And through that you're talking about collaborating, being able 42 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,960 to communicate and then becoming a sort of a, a master problem 43 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,920 solver, being analytical and knowing when to ask for support 44 00:02:35,920 --> 00:02:38,680 and help as well. So that you get that bigger 45 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,360 picture of you because on projects you are focused on the 46 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,360 day-to-day. It's always good to have that 47 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,720 reach back to the sponsors or the programme managers who have 48 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,440 that kind of overarching oversight and that kind of helps 49 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,600 you keep you on on track. Being able to see things 50 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,320 through. I, I think that's a, that's an 51 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,480 incredible skill to have in, in the project environment, being 52 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,360 able to see things through and, and take an ownership of it. 53 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,000 So if you were trying to solve or issues in design and, and 54 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,760 trying to hit certain key milestones of completing design, 55 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,320 you know, spending a lot of time with designers and trying to 56 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,960 plan that out and seeing it into, you know, towards towards 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,520 the end. And there's so many elements 58 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,480 within a project coming from so many different parts. 59 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,200 If you focused on a few and just try to see all the way through 60 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,160 and taking that ownership, you'll be seen as quite 61 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,640 pragmatic as a result. So if you pair that all those 62 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:31,760 elements together, there's some skill sets. 63 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,560 I say we need to successful projects. 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,000 Next up is Linda Rawsthorne, who's head of the government 65 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,760 property profession. Sitting within the Cabinet 66 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,680 Office. Linda is responsible for the 67 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,520 strategy for the whole government estate, which covers 68 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,200 everything from hospitals to courts and offices. 69 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,880 Here she is reflecting on what makes a great project manager. 70 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,600 I suppose one of the things that I really see is it's about focus 71 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,720 and understanding. So it's the the looking down, 72 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,920 the knowing how much detail you need to know and how much you 73 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,360 don't, but also looking up and representing in the ecosystem. 74 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,960 We have a a phrase that we use which is Whitehall Ninja in 75 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,920 government, which is someone who knows their way into other 76 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,680 departments in order to find the right person to be supporting 77 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,480 the project so that different ministers get reports on the 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,200 projects so that there's much more understanding of what's 79 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,760 going on and where help is needed and where we can make a 80 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,640 difference. And I think being really honest 81 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:36,920 is a really key part of being a great project leader and 82 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,600 nurturing and talking about bringing on for the future and 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,040 the next sort of generation. But I suppose the thing that I 84 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,200 think is, is the best is effective delegation. 85 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,240 If you can empower the people nearest the decisions to make 86 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,960 the decisions, they understand all the aspects of it. 87 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,080 And yes, you might query and you might bring your experience to 88 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,720 challenge, but ultimately, if you can delegate decisions down 89 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,120 to the right level, that's where everybody comes in. 90 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,520 Because if everyone in your team's got ownership of the 91 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,200 project, you're on a winner. If people are just sitting there 92 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,960 along for the ride then it's going to be a very difficult 93 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,440 fight. Sticking with a government 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,400 theme, our next clip comes from Al Jason, Head of Project 95 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,600 Delivery, Centre of Excellence and Profession at UK Parliament, 96 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,520 who works on projects and programmes across the House of 97 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,640 Commons and the House of Lords. He thinks great project 98 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,480 management is partly about being an ambassador and having a 99 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,640 willingness to grow. I think it's a combination of 100 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:37,440 technical leadership and personal attributes as well. 101 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,000 So knowledge, skills and behaviours and it's about the 102 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,640 ability to inspire people to, to make a difference. 103 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,440 And I think a great project manager is someone who is 104 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,360 multifaceted, you know, who continuously want to develop 105 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,720 themselves. They're not afraid to try new 106 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,120 things, but it's also they're receptive to, you know, learning 107 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,560 lessons and using insights to make things better for their 108 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,680 projects or their initiatives. It's a combination of different 109 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,600 skills. You've got communication, 110 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,160 leadership, problem solving, decision making, and they need 111 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,680 to be an ambassador as well. They must have the ability to 112 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,480 foster strong team dynamics, build relationships, which is 113 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,120 very important because you could have the best projects, you 114 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,040 could have the best project, you know, manager in the world, but 115 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,040 you know, if you're unable to build relationships, then that 116 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,760 would make things a lot harder in delivering projects. 117 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,360 So someone who's able to balance the needs of, you know, the 118 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,680 teams, the organisations, but also your own personal needs as 119 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,160 a project delivery professional. So it's the combination of 120 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,120 different things that requires adaptability, flexibility and 121 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,480 the willingness to, you know, to learn and grow on a regular 122 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,080 basis. We turn now to the experiences 123 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,800 of two women who recently completed project management 124 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,680 apprenticeships with the National Trust. 125 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,200 We'll hear first from Rebecca Corcoran and then from Flora 126 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,880 Smith, both of whom I interviewed at the National 127 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,080 Trust property Deer and Park in southwest England last year. 128 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,280 Despite being early in their careers, both Rebecca and Flora 129 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,080 have already developed a keen sense of what makes a great 130 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:23,320 project manager. I would say to be adaptable to 131 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,960 be able to, you know, react well to change and because I think 132 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,000 projects are all about change and I don't, I don't think I've 133 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,440 yet to see a project because, you know, delivered to time, 134 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,520 cost and scope. So I think it's really important 135 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,000 to be able to be adaptable, like build that flexibility in to to 136 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,720 your programme, to your dealings with other people as well. 137 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,280 I think knowing when to be decisive and when to really take 138 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,400 that stand, but also knowing when to take a step back, 139 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,960 reflect, accept people and monitor yourself with other 140 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,800 people's emotions. I think being controlled in your 141 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,440 reactions to certain stressful events, say if a stakeholder is 142 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,200 really upset, make sure that they feel listened to even 143 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,960 though they're going against maybe what you believe in. 144 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,600 But it's just making sure that you're also, you're trying to 145 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,160 speak their language. And I think that's a huge lesson 146 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,920 is sort of understanding other people because I have seen it in 147 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,800 examples where it's come to loggerheads and there's some 148 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,520 immovability in it. And it's, it taught me like you 149 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,559 need to just accept people for how they're going to be. 150 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,600 But also you can guide them in a way and try and understand their 151 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,400 perspective and try and work with them. 152 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,360 But it's also OK at a point if it doesn't work like that. 153 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,240 But I think biggest skill is people. 154 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,360 And I definitely say I've seen a lot of goods with that sort of 155 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,120 people management, but I've also seen the flip side where it 156 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,200 doesn't work. But it's interesting to see how 157 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,360 you navigate the actual sort of problem that you have and how to 158 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,880 communicate with people in a way that they can understand. 159 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:19,080 And I think that is what I'd like to be as a project manager 160 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:23,960 is just to be understanding, but also know when to sort of stand 161 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,640 up for myself at the same time. I think that's such a delicate 162 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,320 balance as well. And it's a hard lesson, but 163 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,880 that's a big take away from it. And what I would like to be and 164 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,160 what people would say is like, wow, you've got great people 165 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,480 management skills. That's what I would like to sort 166 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,400 of come away with. Now let's hear from another 167 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,320 project professional who is a relatively early in her career, 168 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,000 Carolina Zettorska, who was recently promoted to senior 169 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,680 project manager at space rocket propulsion company Namo UK. 170 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,440 She shares why being a great project manager is partly about 171 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,320 keeping sight of the bigger picture of a project without 172 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,040 getting lost in their detail. So I. 173 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,720 Think organised, you need to be organised or you need to have 174 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:14,000 ways of becoming organised. So if you know, you're not, you 175 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,200 know, an organised person, there are ways of doing it for a job 176 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,120 and that's fine people skills because you do end up meeting 177 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,200 all sorts of different people and you need to be able to work 178 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,440 with them. Project management is definitely 179 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,720 a social, social job. I think just openness and like 180 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,920 eagerness to learn and maybe not be so detailed driven. 181 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,720 Because the one thing I struggled with as well when I 182 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,440 came over from engineering to PM ING is I wanted to be involved 183 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,000 in every single, you know, technical discussion and 184 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,520 technical solution and know how things work. 185 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,040 But actually at the PM, you don't need that very detail 186 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,440 orientated knowledge. You just need to know the top 187 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,480 level. But again, that's, that's the 188 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,240 sort of thing that you would learn when you take the, you 189 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,480 know, associate PM position or the if you do a placement to it, 190 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,000 you sort of draw a boundary of what, what you need to know 191 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,720 versus what would be a nice to have. 192 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,040 But again, having a mentor also helps because I, I don't think I 193 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,760 would be here without the support of of my manager, 194 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,640 especially in the early days when, yeah, just having someone 195 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,000 to say, look, this is the situation. 196 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,600 What should I do or how far do I go? 197 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,800 And for them to to just guide you through it is definitely 198 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,640 invaluable. Our final response comes from 199 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,840 Emma Carol Walsh, who's Director of Commercial and Project 200 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,960 Services at Aqua Consultants, Deputy leader of APMS Built 201 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,800 Environment Interest Network and a former APM board trustee. 202 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,880 She shares why a sense of fun is an underrated quality in a 203 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,600 project manager. To me, the best project managers 204 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,680 that I've had the privilege of working with, they've really 205 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:00,920 been very diligent, collaborative definitely, and 206 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,000 they've really sort of known that, sort of knew the trade. 207 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,280 So they're very skilled in things like managing risk, in 208 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,160 planning, stakeholder management. 209 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,560 So some of the real key competencies that we want our 210 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,480 project managers to have. But overall, I think for me it's 211 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,080 they've been really good fun, which you might think is a 212 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,520 really odd thing to say, but actually, you know, you spend a 213 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,360 lot of time at work, so you've got to be able to have fun even 214 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,080 when things are stressful. And that that really helps, I 215 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,800 think, to keep people and teams motivated. 216 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,600 So for me, yeah, a great project manager is, is lots of fun to 217 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,840 work with and actually have your back, really have your back and 218 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,960 able to support. You need to come with that level 219 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,440 of optimism and being able to motivate others because things 220 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,720 will be will come stressful on various times in projects. 221 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,400 And at the end of the day, we're all human beings and everyone 222 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,200 comes to work really to do a good job. 223 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,280 So it's about like, how do you make it fun? 224 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,760 How do you make it motivational and and how do you make it so 225 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,040 that you can actually support your team, because a project 226 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,800 manager is only ever as good as the team. 227 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,200 They've got the ring. The one. 228 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,680 That's it for this episode of the APM Podcast. 229 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,640 Thanks to all our guests for sharing their views on what 230 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,000 makes a great project manager. A couple of themes that really 231 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,080 stood out were the importance of people skills alongside great 232 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,480 organisation skills and technical competencies, and the 233 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,080 ability to really listen. We'd like to hear your thoughts 234 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,080 too. What do you think makes a great 235 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,280 project manager? Leave us a comment if you're a 236 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,080 Spotify user or e-mail us at APM Podcast at 237 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,600 thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 238 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,760 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 239 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,520 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.