Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood
body for the project profession. This episode is part of our
series of senior leader interviews hosted by APM Chief
Executive Professor Adam Bodison.
This time Adam is in conversation with Sir Nigel
Thrift, Chair of the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management,
or Quorum. Korum's role, as Sir Nigel
describes it, is to give independent scientific and
technical advice to UK Government on all aspects of the
management of radioactive waste. Sir Nigel is one of the world's
leading human geographers and previously served as Vice
Chancellor and President of the University of Warwick and as Pro
Vice Chancellor for Research at the University of Oxford.
Listen on to hear him chat with Adam about dealing with a
football stadium's worth of radioactive waste.
The environmental impact of megacities and how to enable
better long term thinking in government departments.
Hello, welcome Sir Nigel Thrift to the APM Podcast.
It's a real pleasure to have you on today.
You're currently Chair of the Committee on Radioactive Waste
Management, but before we talk about that role, I think it'd be
useful to give our listeners an overview of your extensive
academic career, particularly your time as Vice Chancellor at
the University of Warwick. So I wonder if you might spend a
little bit of time giving us some background on your academic
career and also maybe your primary areas of specialism?
Yeah, sure. So straightforwardly.
Adam I was basically an academic until my mid 40s, early mid 40s,
and I'm still an academic in that I publish a book.
Every two or three years. But somehow the other in the
early or mid 40s, I got interested in management.
So it's interesting to understand why that is, I think.
So I I had actually early. Academic experience at
Cambridge. At Leeds, at.
ANU at Lampeter and then I basically moved to Bristol
University and in time I became Head of Department of Geography.
At Bristol. And it's a very.
Good. Department, I might add, and I
at the same time met a man called Sir John Inderby, who?
It was and. Is a remarkably famous.
Physicist. And he was concerned about the
university. 'S research.
Performance. And he asked me to come onto
this little panel that he was doing, which was basically
blitzing the university in one way or another.
And that genuinely got me really interested in all sorts of ways.
And it also exposed me to every single discipline in the
university, which was wonderful. Actually, so I was.
Then doing parallel tracks. I was still.
Doing an academic. Career, I told her.
All kinds of places during the time I was.
At Bristol. At Macquarie ETH.
UCLA, Vienna, National University of Singapore, couple
of institutes. Of advanced study, but at the.
Same time I was also doing this parallel track in management
anyway in. Bristol I.
Kind of run a ran out of road and basically almost on.
Spec I applied for a job at Oxford as head of.
Division and I got it and I went to.
Be a. Head of Division at Oxford and
then. The pro vice chancellor research
that's basically. The person who's nominally, and
I say nominally, in charge. Of research at Oxford after two
or three years there. I was headhunted to.
Go as a vice chancellor at Warwick.
And I did that for 10 years and then after that.
I thought. What am I going to do next and?
Luckily, a really. Interesting job came up.
As executive. Director of a thing called
Schwartzman Scholars, and that's working in Beijing and in New
York to set up a new college at Tsinghua University.
Which is. I think the best university in
China and then going on from that.
I took up my current job as chair of the government
committee on. Radioactive waste management.
For the last six years. Wow, It's, it's probably
something we can spend a lot of time talking about.
And, and I think what's really interesting is the, the, the
number of different pivots actually at different points in
the career, which I'm I'm sure we'll come back to.
But you talked about management there, Nigel.
And I suppose if I extend that a little bit further to think
about project and programme management, it's not something
that people would necessarily instinctively associate with
something that's been relevant to an academic career or to
running a university. What what's your experience been
of of of that particular aspect of management?
I think the most important thing to.
Say, is that people? Often have quite strange notions
of what universities are like, and in particular I think it's
worth remembering that many of them nowadays.
Are very large. They have.
Turnovers, you know, in some cases in the billions of.
Pounds Oxford. And Cambridge, I think 2.22
point 3 billion a year and basically.
When you've got that big. And you've got that many
academics and that many students, and you're trying to
do things like building buildings to actually mean that
people can actually do work as academics and students.
You have to use. Project management.
It's not really an option, you know.
Project management is a full. Stop and whether it's.
Rolling out new working practises, building new
facilities, planning big. Empirical science research.
You're bound to be using it and. Size, especially the.
Number of students, which has really increased quite massively
in many universities and financial pressures which at the
moment are extreme, mean that university administrations have
had to become more and more professional and project
management is a part of that. And actually one of the
interesting things is it's actually now appearing quite
strongly. In big empirical science
research, you'll start to see. People really running project.
Software. In order to cope with actually
putting research together in various ways, not just
nationally but internationally, we're talking about vast systems
at this point in time. The main problem for
universities now, against that background, is if.
You're not very careful. You start.
To look like an industrial combine rather than a
university. And I do think.
That's a real issue. But actually, I don't really
think that the. Sector has really.
Had a proper discussion about that.
But there we are. We're not trying to make
universities, if you like, into bland blobs.
We're trying to make them into incredibly exciting places and
you have to be very careful therefore not to iron out all of
their. Quirks we, we've started kind of
drifting into the, this idea around perceptions of
universities. I wonder if you might talk about
perceptions of the project profession, because my sense has
always been that the profession has somewhat of an image problem
or project management itself as an image problem.
And even though it's matured a lot over the past 25 years, you
know, its role, its values to society isn't necessarily always
well understood by the general public, by businesses, by
leaders. What what?
What's your sense of the image of the project profession?
I don't really see. Project management as having the
the image problem that that you think it does.
I mean it's. True that people don't.
Appreciate don't really understand the sheer amount of
effort that has to go, for example into managing really big
projects which would not. Be possible?
Without project management, it's in.
I can't imagine how you could do it, not nowadays for example.
You only have to. Think of something like the
building of Hinkley C nuclear power station.
That's the largest construction project in Europe.
You. You have a look at the project
management outputs from their. Software.
And you go no. This is quite extraordinary.
You know the detail, the timings and so on and so forth how you
link things together. So I think to.
Begin with it may be that people.
Don't appreciate it? But I don't think that means it
has a bad image as such. Once you start.
Talking in the terms, well, how in heaven's name else would you
do some of these things? I think people come round pretty
quickly. It's.
Also, they may not realise that actually a lot of the time they
are doing project management, you know that.
A lot of. People are using project
management and programme management.
Software, full stop. They need tools to plan to
schedule to. Track to collaborate to report
on projects. And they are using them.
They use them. Academics are using them as I.
Said to set up research. Or they think maybe another
question is that project management is a kind of.
Technical activity. And they're basically project
managers are kind of the boffins of organisation, if I can put it
that way. And again, I just don't think
that's. True if.
You look at it. Actually, the really.
Great project managers. Are also really great.
People managers. You have to be because you're.
Threading things together in. All sorts of ways.
And I think. Therefore that.
Maybe it's. True that project.
Management is sometimes undersung, if I can put it that
way. But actually when you start.
Looking at it large. Parts of it are.
Thriving and it's extending into all kinds of areas that it was
never used before. So I wouldn't worry unduly.
You talked earlier on about your books and your academic
research. I know you've written a lot
about the role of cities and cities of course are host to
many of the largest infrastructure programmes around
the world, including transport programmes.
How do you see the role of cities and major programmes
developing in, in the coming years, particularly in a post
pandemic era and, and, and particularly when there's a big
drive now towards net zero and, and, and really having a net
zero future? Well, I think the first thing to
say is I mean. There are lots of cities, but
the real. Issue I think becomes how how to
actually deal with the mega cities.
These are cities. That are kind of 10 / 20 million
in some. Cases of people often, if you're
lucky, quite. Highly concentrated.
Though there are some cities. That really sprawl massively.
Really massively. So there are interesting things
I think around that. So project management.
Yes, of course, all those. Construction projects going on,
many of which. Still have to.
Green up, I think it's. True to.
Say though the industry. Is is.
Trying hard, but I think the thing that for me has always
been an issue and this comes back to work I've done, there's
been maintenance and repair. One of the problems.
I think is actually maintenance and repair is.
Thought of a lot. Of the time too late in the day
and actually you then find that construction projects are being
built. Which are very difficult.
To maintain and repair. But it's worth remembering that
everyone talks about. How you you know buildings only
have a? Set life cycle but actually
truth to. Tell most of them are extended
into. Quite long periods of.
Time and you know. For example in the.
UK the number of houses pre 1919 is surprisingly high and.
They were never built. To last.
As long as they have. But maintenance and repairers
made sure they do. And that's a good.
Thing because that means you're not using loads and loads of
carbon to build new houses. So I think that's something to
think about. The second thing is.
Very straightforwardly that, as you say, we've got to do.
Something about cities at the moment if you look at them.
You could say that. They're incredibly
environmentally destructive in many ways.
They're almost like tyrannosaurs.
You know, eating everything in their path and infrastructural
innovation can help in lots of ways.
Green concrete, new carbon. Free power sources sponge.
Cities, all of these different kinds of things.
But actually, truth to tell. Turning these cities, especially
these large cities, into. Really positive forces.
Is less about major. Infrastructure programmes,
though, they have their. Place and I'm not trying to
suggest. Otherwise.
But more about actually getting the politics right in these
cities at the moment. When you look at a lot of these
major infrastructure programmes, they benefit certain sections of
the population far more than they do others.
And actually the sections of the population they don't benefit
very much are the ones that often have all the externalities
from those projects. Loaded onto them so.
Something has to happen to make sure those.
Kinds of practises change. We hinted earlier on that we
were going to talk about your role on the Committee on
Radioactive Waste Management, where you are indeed the Chair.
So I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about what your role
is there and and also the remit that the committee has, because
I, I suspect lots of people haven't heard of this committee.
Basically it's. It's remit, it's very.
Straightforwardly to give responsible, accurate scientific
and technical advice. To UK government and the and the
devolved administrations. It was founded in 2003 as an
independent arm's length body and it has to be independent.
I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Interested in all aspects of the management of Radioactive?
Waste we go across the spectrum. And in the.
UK this is particularly. Important, of course.
Because the UK store of. Radioactive waste continues to
grow and only the US, France, China and Russia currently have
a larger inventory. So there's a lot.
Of it around that needs working with and are putting away and
basically what we look at is how in a sense you can actually deal
with and manage this waste, which is partly an
organisational problem. But it's also partly a
scientific problem of. That there is no doubt at all.
What kinds of waste are you getting?
For example, what's actually in them?
Can you neutralise? Some of that.
How do you pack? It etcetera, etcetera.
So that's the first thing we do. Scientific and technical advice.
We also. Scrutinise the Nuclear
Decommissioning Authority, the NDA and it's waste subsidiary
Operation Nuclear. Waste Services, which is.
NWS in SO. Far as they relate to
radioactive waste. And that's important as well,
because nuclear decommissioning. Authority has a large.
Budget and it is trying to put away quite a.
Lot of this waste. And then the third thing that we
do. Is.
Public engagement of one form or another.
And. We want to be seen as
independent in. Part because we want the.
Public to understand that we are independent so even though.
Individual members of the. Committee may have.
Personal views. The committee.
Itself is neither pro nor anti nuclear.
It's there to deal with the waste and that's basically a
task. Whatever.
Happens and remember as well at the same time, a key premise of
nuclear policy. Is that its waste?
Will be definitively dealt. With and nuclear.
Policy, in a sense, in this country depends on.
That, so that's important. Little bit about make up twelve
members of the. Committee.
And they cover a massive range of interests.
Three nuclear. Scientists.
A geoscientist, the country's leading.
Nuclear lawyer and environmental.
Planner, a former senior. Regulator, who's also.
Worked for Old Fashioned Bays, an underground mining
construction. Expert A Top.
Project manager and former Bayes director and anthropologist, and
me. I'm a geographer.
Many of them have run. Large organisations, so they've.
Also got a practical sense of what's possible and of.
Course, at the moment quorum, as it's called, is in a
particularly active phase, and there are a set of reasons for
that. One of them is making progress
on the early stages of citing a. Geological disposal facility
and. We'll, we'll talk about that
later. The second is Fusion, which is
not going to produce much in the way.
Of radioactive waste. But it has to be looked at and
it. Could be extraordinarily
important then, of course. There's a new energy.
Security policy which has a 24 GW.
Target for nuclear by. 2050. Which includes 3 new nuclear
power stations increase C Sizewell.
C and possibly Wilva it involves.
Small. Module reactors and advanced.
Module reactors, SMRS and AMRS as they're known, and.
Basically, the idea is to get to about 1/4 of.
UK Power being generated by nuclear.
And the way that you can look at this is.
Through a new UK wide policy on managing radioactive substances
and nuclear decommissioning which actually came out this
year and all of our. Reports and our studies and our
blogs are on the. Core and website, and we're a
very active committee, believe me.
So that's a kind of quick roundup.
Wow, that's a huge remit. You, you talked about policy
there and, and the kinds of initiatives that you're talking
about. We're not talking about policy,
which is, you know, with an outlook of three, five years,
you're talking about decades, potentially 100 plus years for
some of these, for some of these programmes.
Governments I think are sometimes criticised for, I
suppose, thinking in kind of parliamentary cycles, which are,
you know, typically five years depending on who's in power.
What's your view on that? The kind of the tension there
between political thinking, which tends to be in political
cycles and therefore policy is often grouped in, in, in, in
that respect versus the kind of demands of something like
nuclear where the the thinking needs to be really strategic and
really long term. Long term thinking is is is
quite difficult in a lot of UK major programmes.
Everyone actually knows that. OK.
I, I think that you think anyone with the denier, but somehow not
all that much gets done about it.
And I think there are lots of reasons there's no separate
facility for long term thinking in government departments, the
pre eminence of short time, short term financial settlements
in government and indeed in the British economy.
The lack of foresight skills and, as you say, the dominance
of short term political pressures.
And this is a real problem. I I don't think there's any
doubt about that. What you do about it?
Is another issue. The Welsh.
Government, for example, has its well-being of future direct
generations law, which means that any.
Piece of. Legislation that comes up.
To the Welsh. Senate.
Has to actually go. Through inspection to see.
What it will? Do in if you like, impacting
future generations. We could do something similar in
England and I I think that would be sensible.
What I'd like to see is something like the Finnish
National Preparedness Commission, and it has a
practise of building up a systematic compendium of, if you
like, answers to each and every. Breton.
Problem and potential disaster. Which?
Might occur in the future and that I think has made the fins
fins unusually. Well prepared for the inset
onset. Of those kinds of events.
It it's. We we don't have institutions
that do this. That's.
The problem so until. We have.
Some of those institutions and until we believe that long term
thinking is it in itself a discipline, we're not going to
get all that far. Yeah, really, really interesting
points there and and my big take away from what you said there is
there are lessons that we can both learn and apply from really
effective practise and thinking that's happening globally and
maybe that's something we need to as a country I think maybe
maybe get better at. Let me ask you about safety.
You know, people often worried about nuclear, particularly the
kind of safety aspect of it. It's clearly a big priority in
the nuclear sector. I mean, I was at an event
recently up in, in Sellafield where I heard the, the leaders
of this event say what we need from our project management
community is boring predictability.
And I suppose I'm, I'm interested in how we maintain
those really high, much needed high safety standards, but also
make sure that we don't inadvertently lose the kind of
innovation, the new technologies and so on that's needed to drive
nuclear forward and, and bring it through to the, the, you
know, the next phase of its evolution really.
Safety is at the heart. Of nuclear and has been now.
For for several decades. And you can't move without
safety briefings. Without the someone.
Having to produce it each meeting a new means of.
Producing safety and. So on and so forth and.
That's right, you I don't think the.
Population would expect anything less and neither should they, so
I think that's an important thing to say in its own right.
I don't think that's boring, if I'm honest.
I really don't. It's the safety itself requires.
All kinds of innovations. To be really effective.
So you should see the engineering.
That has to be. Done in nuclear power stations
before the fact in order to make sure that they can be
decommissioned properly, and they actually do.
Have to think a long. Term into the future and
produce. Boutique solutions for.
All kinds of things. And I think, you know, people
underestimate just how smart some of these people are and the
things that they're doing. But even if you didn't think
that safety and nuclear anyway, is enforced by a raft.
Of regulatory bodies, the office.
For nuclear regulation, the Environment Agency, the health
and safety. Executive and lots of others,
but that hasn't. Stopped innovation in nuclear.
Especially recently, there's a lot of it about.
Current we've, we've talked about fusion, there's small
modular reactors and advanced modular reactors.
The the thing that I think is different from a lot of
industries is it takes a long time for these innovations.
To get authorisation to proceed. If I can put it that way,
because they have to be seen to be safe, there's nothing wrong
with that and I don't see a way round.
It I don't. Think anyone in Britain would
not want? These safeguards and.
I think. You you'd be impressed by the
sheer. Amount of effort that goes into
safety in the industry and no one can say that anything
untoward will ever happen but. People.
Strive constantly to make. Sure that it doesn't.
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You, you gave us a teaser earlier on Nigel, when you, when
you mentioned the GDF, the geological disposal facility.
I wonder if you might tell us a bit about it and what the
primary challenges are in delivering this really important
nuclear waste project. I think the the most important
thing is to understand the scale of the problem, OK?
So the UK total. Amount of.
Radioactive waste produced after about. 70 years of operations is
about 4400 and 50 million cubic. Metres by total package volume
you can go. Online and find this straight
away. But actually, if you look at it
after all this waste. Has been packaged.
It's estimated its final volume if you put it all.
Together, which you wouldn't, would equate to a space.
Similar to. That of a large modern football
stadium. So.
After 70 years of operation, it's not at least an
extraordinary volume that we're talking about.
According to the NDA 2022 inventory, about 94.5% of the
radioactive waste volume in the UK is currently classed.
As low level waste. About 5.4% is what's called
intermediate level waste, and less than. 0.04.
Percent is. Classified as high level, but
and going the other way by degree of radioactivity, the.
Corresponding figures are 0.004% for low level waste, 18.5% for
intermediate. Level waste and. 81.5%.
For the high level waste. I don't.
I think you can draw your own conclusion.
About that. So some of the stuff is
difficult. And some of it isn't and some of
it is. Very difficult, so Simply put,
current. Plans in England, Wales are like
those in most countries, to dispose of the most hazardous.
Waste. All of the high level waste and
some of the intermediate. Level waste are.
Actually, in a geological. Disposal for facility which is
deep. Underground where it will
reside. For the foreseeable.
Future isolated from the biosphere and.
From future populations. So that radioactivity emitted by
the ways can. Decay to safe levels.
And it's important to note that. That was first recommended by
Cora. To the government in 2006 and
the geological. Disposal facility.
The GDF. Will be 200 to 1000 metres in
depth. So it could be as deep as a.
Kilometre and is likely to be in shore.
That's under the sea, within territorial waters.
So it could. Be on shore.
It'll be. Over 20 square kilometres in
underground extent with only a square kilometre of land.
Used at the surface. And it'll consist of tunnels in
which waste will be of various kinds will be lodged and left in
place and this this facility. Won't be.
Built all in one go. It'll be a gradual thing where
you build. Some tunnels and you build the
mainframework, but then you close off some tunnels and you
open some new tunnels and so on and so forth, so.
It's it's a. Big construction project, but
it's certainly. Not an impossible construction
project and 1:00. Of the reasons for that is
because technology's come on, as as you well know, and in
particular modern underground technology in the last 20.
Years or something has really gone on like a shot and we now.
Have a GD. F actually pretty well.
Complete in Finland, and there are plans for others in places
like France and Canada. They're a bit farther on, I
think, than we are, but we're doing the best we can.
There's a lot of debate. About where you can.
Put these particular facilities. And I think the main thing is
you've got to have the right rock type and that means
building in inactive. Geologies which will restrict.
Groundwater flow. You don't want water flowing
through radioactive waste. And the main preference.
Therefore is for salt, it's for halide Sykes, for it's, it's for
clay, or it's for Hard Rock such as.
Granite, which is usually. Not heavily fractured and
because of the timescale of the the GDF which is.
Probably from now to when it's actually closed.
About 180 years to finish to replace.
All the foreseeable. Waste, and it may be for.
Some of the waste. It has to be there for many
thousands of years. It inevitably means that it's.
About as a project. Reducing uncertainties and
going. Back to it, especially.
In the safety case and it's. Clear as I've already.
Mentioned at least under. Government policies.
The inventory of Radioactive. Waste if.
Nuclear continues to grow. Will itself grow.
So there are interesting things about that.
I think as well it's worth. Saying there are challenges.
Having said that, with producing a geological disposal facility,
there's a whole set of hoops that have to be jumped through.
First in placement of waste for example in a GDF has recently
been put back from the twenty 40s to the 20 fifties and the
high level waste will only begin to be in place from 2075.
So we're talking. Really about a long time scale
at the. Same time, the sighting policy
is another challenge. It.
Relies on what's called. Volunteerism, that is.
That a community has. Basically to say yes.
And that means there has. To be a test of public support
which allows a. Community to provide an opinion.
On whether a. GDF can be cited in its area and
if that opinion is negative. It's off.
Simple as that. Following on from the process of
working with a successful community to.
Achieve a successful test of public support.
And then you've. Got all.
Kinds of other things you need to.
Do for example boreholes you have to get all the requisite.
Consents and safety permits. And you also.
Had to get a development consent.
Order because the GDF. Would be a nationally
significant. Infrastructure project and
that's what you have to do. And then of course, all of these
kind of things when you add them.
Together first in. Placement of waste in the 20
fifties to final closure from now, that's about 180 years.
And then one final challenge. There's enormous.
Skill shortages in nuclear. At the moment.
Because so much is going. On and that is not.
A trivial issue actually, but the.
Government is doing things about that.
And so actually are many of the. Private companies we started.
Our conversation today talking about image, about public
perceptions, nuclear strikes me as one of these industries where
there's probably a lot of misconceptions and myths about
the the about the industry. What would you say are those big
myths? And maybe you could set a few
straight forwards today. Yeah.
Yeah, well, I think the main one is.
Basically radiation. Is seen by many people per
southeast is dangerous. But you have to be really
careful about this. Because radiation is something
we all experience in our daily lives as natural background is
that people will tell you in in all sorts of places they always
love the. Example that even bananas give.
Off some kind of radiation going on from that.
Of course, another thing is that not all radioactive material is
being used for bad purposes. There's nuclear power, of
course. That's important in its own.
Way and it's carbon free but. Also, it's worth remembering.
All of the medical uses of of nuclear.
Research. Reactors and psychrotrons.
That are used then. In scanners, some medical.
Procedures and so on, but that isn't to.
Say of course. It's once trying to.
Kind of minimise the fact that the radioactive way.
Somebody is certainly. Extremely problematic, but it is
to. Say that you.
Can overdo it. Finally, of course, there's the
secrecy myth, the myth that somehow all of the all of this
is. Kind of taking.
Place behind closed doors, and so on and so forth.
I don't know whether that was. True or not?
But I don't think it's true now. If you most people.
Are just amazed by the amount of.
Information that's actually available online.
They don't believe in the. 1st place that.
It's there so they don't go looking for it, but it's not.
Difficult to find these. Things.
For example, the inventory of all the waste in some detail is
there from 20. Two. 2022 online and the whole
series of these kinds of different things and a lot of
the kind when you see these barriers around various nuclear
facilities and that kind of thing, that's for people's
protection. Let me be very clear about that
and was trying to make sure that you don't have people wandering
around where they shouldn't be. Nigel, it's been.
A pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Thank you so much for your time. And maybe we'll invite you back
in a few years to see how some of these things are getting on.
And we wish you and the committee well with your task.
OK, Adam, thank. You very much.
It's been enjoyable talking to you thanks to Adam and.
Nigel for taking time out to share their conversation with
the APM Podcast. Don't forget to rate and review
us wherever you get your podcasts.
You can find out more about Nigel's work with Quorum on
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That's it for this episode. Thanks again for listening.