1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,280 Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,080 body for the project profession. This episode is part of our 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,120 series of senior leader interviews hosted by APM Chief 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,160 Executive Professor Adam Bodison. 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,760 This time Adam is in conversation with Sir Nigel 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,240 Thrift, Chair of the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management, 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,640 or Quorum. Korum's role, as Sir Nigel 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,800 describes it, is to give independent scientific and 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,920 technical advice to UK Government on all aspects of the 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,080 management of radioactive waste. Sir Nigel is one of the world's 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,920 leading human geographers and previously served as Vice 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,120 Chancellor and President of the University of Warwick and as Pro 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,000 Vice Chancellor for Research at the University of Oxford. 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,520 Listen on to hear him chat with Adam about dealing with a 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,080 football stadium's worth of radioactive waste. 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,000 The environmental impact of megacities and how to enable 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,760 better long term thinking in government departments. 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,360 Hello, welcome Sir Nigel Thrift to the APM Podcast. 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,720 It's a real pleasure to have you on today. 20 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,240 You're currently Chair of the Committee on Radioactive Waste 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,760 Management, but before we talk about that role, I think it'd be 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,440 useful to give our listeners an overview of your extensive 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,360 academic career, particularly your time as Vice Chancellor at 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,320 the University of Warwick. So I wonder if you might spend a 25 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:32,880 little bit of time giving us some background on your academic 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,440 career and also maybe your primary areas of specialism? 27 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,480 Yeah, sure. So straightforwardly. 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,720 Adam I was basically an academic until my mid 40s, early mid 40s, 29 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,080 and I'm still an academic in that I publish a book. 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,800 Every two or three years. But somehow the other in the 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,320 early or mid 40s, I got interested in management. 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,560 So it's interesting to understand why that is, I think. 33 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:03,200 So I I had actually early. Academic experience at 34 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,200 Cambridge. At Leeds, at. 35 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,639 ANU at Lampeter and then I basically moved to Bristol 36 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:16,240 University and in time I became Head of Department of Geography. 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:17,760 At Bristol. And it's a very. 38 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,600 Good. Department, I might add, and I 39 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,960 at the same time met a man called Sir John Inderby, who? 40 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,960 It was and. Is a remarkably famous. 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,240 Physicist. And he was concerned about the 42 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,440 university. 'S research. 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,400 Performance. And he asked me to come onto 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,760 this little panel that he was doing, which was basically 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,760 blitzing the university in one way or another. 46 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,960 And that genuinely got me really interested in all sorts of ways. 47 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,120 And it also exposed me to every single discipline in the 48 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,480 university, which was wonderful. Actually, so I was. 49 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,160 Then doing parallel tracks. I was still. 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,720 Doing an academic. Career, I told her. 51 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,960 All kinds of places during the time I was. 52 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:02,120 At Bristol. At Macquarie ETH. 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,120 UCLA, Vienna, National University of Singapore, couple 54 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,280 of institutes. Of advanced study, but at the. 55 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,280 Same time I was also doing this parallel track in management 56 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:13,920 anyway in. Bristol I. 57 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:18,400 Kind of run a ran out of road and basically almost on. 58 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,240 Spec I applied for a job at Oxford as head of. 59 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,440 Division and I got it and I went to. 60 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Be a. Head of Division at Oxford and 61 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,560 then. The pro vice chancellor research 62 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,040 that's basically. The person who's nominally, and 63 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,920 I say nominally, in charge. Of research at Oxford after two 64 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,800 or three years there. I was headhunted to. 65 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,040 Go as a vice chancellor at Warwick. 66 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,400 And I did that for 10 years and then after that. 67 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,960 I thought. What am I going to do next and? 68 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,960 Luckily, a really. Interesting job came up. 69 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,280 As executive. Director of a thing called 70 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,760 Schwartzman Scholars, and that's working in Beijing and in New 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,640 York to set up a new college at Tsinghua University. 72 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,760 Which is. I think the best university in 73 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,320 China and then going on from that. 74 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,120 I took up my current job as chair of the government 75 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,280 committee on. Radioactive waste management. 76 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,560 For the last six years. Wow, It's, it's probably 77 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,519 something we can spend a lot of time talking about. 78 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:23,040 And, and I think what's really interesting is the, the, the 79 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,480 number of different pivots actually at different points in 80 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,400 the career, which I'm I'm sure we'll come back to. 81 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,880 But you talked about management there, Nigel. 82 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,840 And I suppose if I extend that a little bit further to think 83 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:36,680 about project and programme management, it's not something 84 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,240 that people would necessarily instinctively associate with 85 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,920 something that's been relevant to an academic career or to 86 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,840 running a university. What what's your experience been 87 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,120 of of of that particular aspect of management? 88 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,480 I think the most important thing to. 89 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,920 Say, is that people? Often have quite strange notions 90 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:00,680 of what universities are like, and in particular I think it's 91 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,640 worth remembering that many of them nowadays. 92 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,080 Are very large. They have. 93 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Turnovers, you know, in some cases in the billions of. 94 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,960 Pounds Oxford. And Cambridge, I think 2.22 95 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,080 point 3 billion a year and basically. 96 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,200 When you've got that big. And you've got that many 97 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,960 academics and that many students, and you're trying to 98 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,400 do things like building buildings to actually mean that 99 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,440 people can actually do work as academics and students. 100 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,800 You have to use. Project management. 101 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,840 It's not really an option, you know. 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,480 Project management is a full. Stop and whether it's. 103 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,160 Rolling out new working practises, building new 104 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,280 facilities, planning big. Empirical science research. 105 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,720 You're bound to be using it and. Size, especially the. 106 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,480 Number of students, which has really increased quite massively 107 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,360 in many universities and financial pressures which at the 108 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,520 moment are extreme, mean that university administrations have 109 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,200 had to become more and more professional and project 110 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,920 management is a part of that. And actually one of the 111 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,040 interesting things is it's actually now appearing quite 112 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,320 strongly. In big empirical science 113 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:22,280 research, you'll start to see. People really running project. 114 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:25,480 Software. In order to cope with actually 115 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,600 putting research together in various ways, not just 116 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,280 nationally but internationally, we're talking about vast systems 117 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,160 at this point in time. The main problem for 118 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,920 universities now, against that background, is if. 119 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,480 You're not very careful. You start. 120 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,280 To look like an industrial combine rather than a 121 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:46,800 university. And I do think. 122 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,440 That's a real issue. But actually, I don't really 123 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,160 think that the. Sector has really. 124 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,080 Had a proper discussion about that. 125 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,560 But there we are. We're not trying to make 126 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,320 universities, if you like, into bland blobs. 127 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,320 We're trying to make them into incredibly exciting places and 128 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,600 you have to be very careful therefore not to iron out all of 129 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,000 their. Quirks we, we've started kind of 130 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,200 drifting into the, this idea around perceptions of 131 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,760 universities. I wonder if you might talk about 132 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,960 perceptions of the project profession, because my sense has 133 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,880 always been that the profession has somewhat of an image problem 134 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,080 or project management itself as an image problem. 135 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,960 And even though it's matured a lot over the past 25 years, you 136 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,000 know, its role, its values to society isn't necessarily always 137 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,000 well understood by the general public, by businesses, by 138 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,520 leaders. What what? 139 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,440 What's your sense of the image of the project profession? 140 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,160 I don't really see. Project management as having the 141 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,480 the image problem that that you think it does. 142 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,080 I mean it's. True that people don't. 143 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,760 Appreciate don't really understand the sheer amount of 144 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,080 effort that has to go, for example into managing really big 145 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,320 projects which would not. Be possible? 146 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,200 Without project management, it's in. 147 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,400 I can't imagine how you could do it, not nowadays for example. 148 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,000 You only have to. Think of something like the 149 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,040 building of Hinkley C nuclear power station. 150 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,640 That's the largest construction project in Europe. 151 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,400 You. You have a look at the project 152 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,080 management outputs from their. Software. 153 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,080 And you go no. This is quite extraordinary. 154 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,960 You know the detail, the timings and so on and so forth how you 155 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,520 link things together. So I think to. 156 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,720 Begin with it may be that people. 157 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,840 Don't appreciate it? But I don't think that means it 158 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,280 has a bad image as such. Once you start. 159 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,520 Talking in the terms, well, how in heaven's name else would you 160 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,160 do some of these things? I think people come round pretty 161 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,680 quickly. It's. 162 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:50,400 Also, they may not realise that actually a lot of the time they 163 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,160 are doing project management, you know that. 164 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:54,800 A lot of. People are using project 165 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,280 management and programme management. 166 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,560 Software, full stop. They need tools to plan to 167 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:02,720 schedule to. Track to collaborate to report 168 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,560 on projects. And they are using them. 169 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:07,160 They use them. Academics are using them as I. 170 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,840 Said to set up research. Or they think maybe another 171 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,600 question is that project management is a kind of. 172 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,960 Technical activity. And they're basically project 173 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,840 managers are kind of the boffins of organisation, if I can put it 174 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,520 that way. And again, I just don't think 175 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:25,680 that's. True if. 176 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:27,200 You look at it. Actually, the really. 177 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,440 Great project managers. Are also really great. 178 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,000 People managers. You have to be because you're. 179 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,880 Threading things together in. All sorts of ways. 180 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,200 And I think. Therefore that. 181 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:41,280 Maybe it's. True that project. 182 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,360 Management is sometimes undersung, if I can put it that 183 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,720 way. But actually when you start. 184 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,000 Looking at it large. Parts of it are. 185 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,640 Thriving and it's extending into all kinds of areas that it was 186 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,280 never used before. So I wouldn't worry unduly. 187 00:09:57,560 --> 00:09:59,760 You talked earlier on about your books and your academic 188 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,160 research. I know you've written a lot 189 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,560 about the role of cities and cities of course are host to 190 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,200 many of the largest infrastructure programmes around 191 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,680 the world, including transport programmes. 192 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,400 How do you see the role of cities and major programmes 193 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,120 developing in, in the coming years, particularly in a post 194 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,480 pandemic era and, and, and particularly when there's a big 195 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,480 drive now towards net zero and, and, and really having a net 196 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,160 zero future? Well, I think the first thing to 197 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,640 say is I mean. There are lots of cities, but 198 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,680 the real. Issue I think becomes how how to 199 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:35,680 actually deal with the mega cities. 200 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,680 These are cities. That are kind of 10 / 20 million 201 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:43,040 in some. Cases of people often, if you're 202 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,880 lucky, quite. Highly concentrated. 203 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,000 Though there are some cities. That really sprawl massively. 204 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,200 Really massively. So there are interesting things 205 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,040 I think around that. So project management. 206 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,240 Yes, of course, all those. Construction projects going on, 207 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:58,600 many of which. Still have to. 208 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,200 Green up, I think it's. True to. 209 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,960 Say though the industry. Is is. 210 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,560 Trying hard, but I think the thing that for me has always 211 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:08,800 been an issue and this comes back to work I've done, there's 212 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,720 been maintenance and repair. One of the problems. 213 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,760 I think is actually maintenance and repair is. 214 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,480 Thought of a lot. Of the time too late in the day 215 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,880 and actually you then find that construction projects are being 216 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,880 built. Which are very difficult. 217 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,360 To maintain and repair. But it's worth remembering that 218 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,440 everyone talks about. How you you know buildings only 219 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,960 have a? Set life cycle but actually 220 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,840 truth to. Tell most of them are extended 221 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,760 into. Quite long periods of. 222 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,680 Time and you know. For example in the. 223 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:48,400 UK the number of houses pre 1919 is surprisingly high and. 224 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,160 They were never built. To last. 225 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,760 As long as they have. But maintenance and repairers 226 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,400 made sure they do. And that's a good. 227 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,520 Thing because that means you're not using loads and loads of 228 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,680 carbon to build new houses. So I think that's something to 229 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,880 think about. The second thing is. 230 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,400 Very straightforwardly that, as you say, we've got to do. 231 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Something about cities at the moment if you look at them. 232 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:13,880 You could say that. They're incredibly 233 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,080 environmentally destructive in many ways. 234 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,200 They're almost like tyrannosaurs. 235 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:23,000 You know, eating everything in their path and infrastructural 236 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,160 innovation can help in lots of ways. 237 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Green concrete, new carbon. Free power sources sponge. 238 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Cities, all of these different kinds of things. 239 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,800 But actually, truth to tell. Turning these cities, especially 240 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,080 these large cities, into. Really positive forces. 241 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,600 Is less about major. Infrastructure programmes, 242 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,080 though, they have their. Place and I'm not trying to 243 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,040 suggest. Otherwise. 244 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,560 But more about actually getting the politics right in these 245 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,320 cities at the moment. When you look at a lot of these 246 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,080 major infrastructure programmes, they benefit certain sections of 247 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,640 the population far more than they do others. 248 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,600 And actually the sections of the population they don't benefit 249 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,120 very much are the ones that often have all the externalities 250 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,480 from those projects. Loaded onto them so. 251 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,080 Something has to happen to make sure those. 252 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,360 Kinds of practises change. We hinted earlier on that we 253 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,080 were going to talk about your role on the Committee on 254 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,800 Radioactive Waste Management, where you are indeed the Chair. 255 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,520 So I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about what your role 256 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,360 is there and and also the remit that the committee has, because 257 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,840 I, I suspect lots of people haven't heard of this committee. 258 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,560 Basically it's. It's remit, it's very. 259 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:38,640 Straightforwardly to give responsible, accurate scientific 260 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,800 and technical advice. To UK government and the and the 261 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,080 devolved administrations. It was founded in 2003 as an 262 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,280 independent arm's length body and it has to be independent. 263 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:53,840 I don't think there's any doubt about that. 264 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,360 Interested in all aspects of the management of Radioactive? 265 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Waste we go across the spectrum. And in the. 266 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,400 UK this is particularly. Important, of course. 267 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,640 Because the UK store of. Radioactive waste continues to 268 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,320 grow and only the US, France, China and Russia currently have 269 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,720 a larger inventory. So there's a lot. 270 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,600 Of it around that needs working with and are putting away and 271 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,080 basically what we look at is how in a sense you can actually deal 272 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,080 with and manage this waste, which is partly an 273 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,000 organisational problem. But it's also partly a 274 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,200 scientific problem of. That there is no doubt at all. 275 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,520 What kinds of waste are you getting? 276 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,960 For example, what's actually in them? 277 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,600 Can you neutralise? Some of that. 278 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,640 How do you pack? It etcetera, etcetera. 279 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,320 So that's the first thing we do. Scientific and technical advice. 280 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,000 We also. Scrutinise the Nuclear 281 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,240 Decommissioning Authority, the NDA and it's waste subsidiary 282 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,640 Operation Nuclear. Waste Services, which is. 283 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,440 NWS in SO. Far as they relate to 284 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,680 radioactive waste. And that's important as well, 285 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,320 because nuclear decommissioning. Authority has a large. 286 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,240 Budget and it is trying to put away quite a. 287 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,280 Lot of this waste. And then the third thing that we 288 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:15,160 do. Is. 289 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,800 Public engagement of one form or another. 290 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,280 And. We want to be seen as 291 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,480 independent in. Part because we want the. 292 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,960 Public to understand that we are independent so even though. 293 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,960 Individual members of the. Committee may have. 294 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,440 Personal views. The committee. 295 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Itself is neither pro nor anti nuclear. 296 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,480 It's there to deal with the waste and that's basically a 297 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:41,560 task. Whatever. 298 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,560 Happens and remember as well at the same time, a key premise of 299 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,120 nuclear policy. Is that its waste? 300 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,200 Will be definitively dealt. With and nuclear. 301 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,680 Policy, in a sense, in this country depends on. 302 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,240 That, so that's important. Little bit about make up twelve 303 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,480 members of the. Committee. 304 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,080 And they cover a massive range of interests. 305 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,880 Three nuclear. Scientists. 306 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,440 A geoscientist, the country's leading. 307 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,520 Nuclear lawyer and environmental. 308 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,160 Planner, a former senior. Regulator, who's also. 309 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,400 Worked for Old Fashioned Bays, an underground mining 310 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,360 construction. Expert A Top. 311 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,000 Project manager and former Bayes director and anthropologist, and 312 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,520 me. I'm a geographer. 313 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,720 Many of them have run. Large organisations, so they've. 314 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,520 Also got a practical sense of what's possible and of. 315 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,520 Course, at the moment quorum, as it's called, is in a 316 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,520 particularly active phase, and there are a set of reasons for 317 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,640 that. One of them is making progress 318 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,560 on the early stages of citing a. Geological disposal facility 319 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:45,960 and. We'll, we'll talk about that 320 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:51,160 later. The second is Fusion, which is 321 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,840 not going to produce much in the way. 322 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,200 Of radioactive waste. But it has to be looked at and 323 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,640 it. Could be extraordinarily 324 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,080 important then, of course. There's a new energy. 325 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,840 Security policy which has a 24 GW. 326 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,640 Target for nuclear by. 2050. Which includes 3 new nuclear 327 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,800 power stations increase C Sizewell. 328 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,960 C and possibly Wilva it involves. 329 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,200 Small. Module reactors and advanced. 330 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,240 Module reactors, SMRS and AMRS as they're known, and. 331 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,359 Basically, the idea is to get to about 1/4 of. 332 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,240 UK Power being generated by nuclear. 333 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,200 And the way that you can look at this is. 334 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,800 Through a new UK wide policy on managing radioactive substances 335 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,080 and nuclear decommissioning which actually came out this 336 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,360 year and all of our. Reports and our studies and our 337 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:43,800 blogs are on the. Core and website, and we're a 338 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,040 very active committee, believe me. 339 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,760 So that's a kind of quick roundup. 340 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,640 Wow, that's a huge remit. You, you talked about policy 341 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,000 there and, and the kinds of initiatives that you're talking 342 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,400 about. We're not talking about policy, 343 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,440 which is, you know, with an outlook of three, five years, 344 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:08,040 you're talking about decades, potentially 100 plus years for 345 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,080 some of these, for some of these programmes. 346 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,560 Governments I think are sometimes criticised for, I 347 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,120 suppose, thinking in kind of parliamentary cycles, which are, 348 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,600 you know, typically five years depending on who's in power. 349 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,840 What's your view on that? The kind of the tension there 350 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,800 between political thinking, which tends to be in political 351 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,760 cycles and therefore policy is often grouped in, in, in, in 352 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,120 that respect versus the kind of demands of something like 353 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,880 nuclear where the the thinking needs to be really strategic and 354 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,240 really long term. Long term thinking is is is 355 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,080 quite difficult in a lot of UK major programmes. 356 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,800 Everyone actually knows that. OK. 357 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:53,520 I, I think that you think anyone with the denier, but somehow not 358 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,320 all that much gets done about it. 359 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,280 And I think there are lots of reasons there's no separate 360 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,560 facility for long term thinking in government departments, the 361 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,440 pre eminence of short time, short term financial settlements 362 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,080 in government and indeed in the British economy. 363 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,960 The lack of foresight skills and, as you say, the dominance 364 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,880 of short term political pressures. 365 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,240 And this is a real problem. I I don't think there's any 366 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,560 doubt about that. What you do about it? 367 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,040 Is another issue. The Welsh. 368 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,000 Government, for example, has its well-being of future direct 369 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,200 generations law, which means that any. 370 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,400 Piece of. Legislation that comes up. 371 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:36,320 To the Welsh. Senate. 372 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,920 Has to actually go. Through inspection to see. 373 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,760 What it will? Do in if you like, impacting 374 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,120 future generations. We could do something similar in 375 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,440 England and I I think that would be sensible. 376 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,080 What I'd like to see is something like the Finnish 377 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,840 National Preparedness Commission, and it has a 378 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,920 practise of building up a systematic compendium of, if you 379 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,080 like, answers to each and every. Breton. 380 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,400 Problem and potential disaster. Which? 381 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,800 Might occur in the future and that I think has made the fins 382 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,600 fins unusually. Well prepared for the inset 383 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,920 onset. Of those kinds of events. 384 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,840 It it's. We we don't have institutions 385 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,360 that do this. That's. 386 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,720 The problem so until. We have. 387 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,080 Some of those institutions and until we believe that long term 388 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,840 thinking is it in itself a discipline, we're not going to 389 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,840 get all that far. Yeah, really, really interesting 390 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,360 points there and and my big take away from what you said there is 391 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,400 there are lessons that we can both learn and apply from really 392 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,240 effective practise and thinking that's happening globally and 393 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,920 maybe that's something we need to as a country I think maybe 394 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,240 maybe get better at. Let me ask you about safety. 395 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,000 You know, people often worried about nuclear, particularly the 396 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,480 kind of safety aspect of it. It's clearly a big priority in 397 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,760 the nuclear sector. I mean, I was at an event 398 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:10,400 recently up in, in Sellafield where I heard the, the leaders 399 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,320 of this event say what we need from our project management 400 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,720 community is boring predictability. 401 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,280 And I suppose I'm, I'm interested in how we maintain 402 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:25,000 those really high, much needed high safety standards, but also 403 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,480 make sure that we don't inadvertently lose the kind of 404 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,120 innovation, the new technologies and so on that's needed to drive 405 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,240 nuclear forward and, and bring it through to the, the, you 406 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,480 know, the next phase of its evolution really. 407 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,560 Safety is at the heart. Of nuclear and has been now. 408 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,080 For for several decades. And you can't move without 409 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,760 safety briefings. Without the someone. 410 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,040 Having to produce it each meeting a new means of. 411 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:59,240 Producing safety and. So on and so forth and. 412 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,120 That's right, you I don't think the. 413 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:09,040 Population would expect anything less and neither should they, so 414 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,400 I think that's an important thing to say in its own right. 415 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,160 I don't think that's boring, if I'm honest. 416 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,920 I really don't. It's the safety itself requires. 417 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,960 All kinds of innovations. To be really effective. 418 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,360 So you should see the engineering. 419 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,120 That has to be. Done in nuclear power stations 420 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,080 before the fact in order to make sure that they can be 421 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,320 decommissioned properly, and they actually do. 422 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,480 Have to think a long. Term into the future and 423 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,600 produce. Boutique solutions for. 424 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,360 All kinds of things. And I think, you know, people 425 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:50,840 underestimate just how smart some of these people are and the 426 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,960 things that they're doing. But even if you didn't think 427 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,800 that safety and nuclear anyway, is enforced by a raft. 428 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,960 Of regulatory bodies, the office. 429 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,760 For nuclear regulation, the Environment Agency, the health 430 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,400 and safety. Executive and lots of others, 431 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,840 but that hasn't. Stopped innovation in nuclear. 432 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,600 Especially recently, there's a lot of it about. 433 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,760 Current we've, we've talked about fusion, there's small 434 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,400 modular reactors and advanced modular reactors. 435 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,480 The the thing that I think is different from a lot of 436 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,120 industries is it takes a long time for these innovations. 437 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,720 To get authorisation to proceed. If I can put it that way, 438 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,360 because they have to be seen to be safe, there's nothing wrong 439 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:36,280 with that and I don't see a way round. 440 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,000 It I don't. Think anyone in Britain would 441 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,080 not want? These safeguards and. 442 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,080 I think. You you'd be impressed by the 443 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,200 sheer. Amount of effort that goes into 444 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,160 safety in the industry and no one can say that anything 445 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,680 untoward will ever happen but. People. 446 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,000 Strive constantly to make. Sure that it doesn't. 447 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,320 We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the 448 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,640 project profession. When you become an APM member, 449 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,160 you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an 450 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,600 impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. 451 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,160 Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support 452 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,440 your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you 453 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,240 reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. 454 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,320 Because when projects succeed, society benefits. 455 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,520 You, you gave us a teaser earlier on Nigel, when you, when 456 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,160 you mentioned the GDF, the geological disposal facility. 457 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,920 I wonder if you might tell us a bit about it and what the 458 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,080 primary challenges are in delivering this really important 459 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,600 nuclear waste project. I think the the most important 460 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,960 thing is to understand the scale of the problem, OK? 461 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,880 So the UK total. Amount of. 462 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,760 Radioactive waste produced after about. 70 years of operations is 463 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,000 about 4400 and 50 million cubic. Metres by total package volume 464 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,840 you can go. Online and find this straight 465 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,640 away. But actually, if you look at it 466 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,720 after all this waste. Has been packaged. 467 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,880 It's estimated its final volume if you put it all. 468 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,560 Together, which you wouldn't, would equate to a space. 469 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,800 Similar to. That of a large modern football 470 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,160 stadium. So. 471 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,160 After 70 years of operation, it's not at least an 472 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,360 extraordinary volume that we're talking about. 473 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:34,880 According to the NDA 2022 inventory, about 94.5% of the 474 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,760 radioactive waste volume in the UK is currently classed. 475 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,640 As low level waste. About 5.4% is what's called 476 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,880 intermediate level waste, and less than. 0.04. 477 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,080 Percent is. Classified as high level, but 478 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,520 and going the other way by degree of radioactivity, the. 479 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:03,600 Corresponding figures are 0.004% for low level waste, 18.5% for 480 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,080 intermediate. Level waste and. 81.5%. 481 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,080 For the high level waste. I don't. 482 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,920 I think you can draw your own conclusion. 483 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,280 About that. So some of the stuff is 484 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,440 difficult. And some of it isn't and some of 485 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,920 it is. Very difficult, so Simply put, 486 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,760 current. Plans in England, Wales are like 487 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,840 those in most countries, to dispose of the most hazardous. 488 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,120 Waste. All of the high level waste and 489 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,880 some of the intermediate. Level waste are. 490 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,680 Actually, in a geological. Disposal for facility which is 491 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,800 deep. Underground where it will 492 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,440 reside. For the foreseeable. 493 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,760 Future isolated from the biosphere and. 494 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,680 From future populations. So that radioactivity emitted by 495 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,560 the ways can. Decay to safe levels. 496 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,720 And it's important to note that. That was first recommended by 497 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,080 Cora. To the government in 2006 and 498 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,800 the geological. Disposal facility. 499 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,840 The GDF. Will be 200 to 1000 metres in 500 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,280 depth. So it could be as deep as a. 501 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,080 Kilometre and is likely to be in shore. 502 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,800 That's under the sea, within territorial waters. 503 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,200 So it could. Be on shore. 504 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,600 It'll be. Over 20 square kilometres in 505 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,320 underground extent with only a square kilometre of land. 506 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,520 Used at the surface. And it'll consist of tunnels in 507 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,320 which waste will be of various kinds will be lodged and left in 508 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,320 place and this this facility. Won't be. 509 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,560 Built all in one go. It'll be a gradual thing where 510 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,560 you build. Some tunnels and you build the 511 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,720 mainframework, but then you close off some tunnels and you 512 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,320 open some new tunnels and so on and so forth, so. 513 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,680 It's it's a. Big construction project, but 514 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,920 it's certainly. Not an impossible construction 515 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,800 project and 1:00. Of the reasons for that is 516 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,360 because technology's come on, as as you well know, and in 517 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:02,480 particular modern underground technology in the last 20. 518 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,880 Years or something has really gone on like a shot and we now. 519 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,840 Have a GD. F actually pretty well. 520 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,440 Complete in Finland, and there are plans for others in places 521 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,440 like France and Canada. They're a bit farther on, I 522 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,440 think, than we are, but we're doing the best we can. 523 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,360 There's a lot of debate. About where you can. 524 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:30,680 Put these particular facilities. And I think the main thing is 525 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,840 you've got to have the right rock type and that means 526 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,240 building in inactive. Geologies which will restrict. 527 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,000 Groundwater flow. You don't want water flowing 528 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,200 through radioactive waste. And the main preference. 529 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,360 Therefore is for salt, it's for halide Sykes, for it's, it's for 530 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,880 clay, or it's for Hard Rock such as. 531 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,000 Granite, which is usually. Not heavily fractured and 532 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,880 because of the timescale of the the GDF which is. 533 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,840 Probably from now to when it's actually closed. 534 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,440 About 180 years to finish to replace. 535 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,040 All the foreseeable. Waste, and it may be for. 536 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,360 Some of the waste. It has to be there for many 537 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,240 thousands of years. It inevitably means that it's. 538 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,040 About as a project. Reducing uncertainties and 539 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,880 going. Back to it, especially. 540 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,840 In the safety case and it's. Clear as I've already. 541 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,720 Mentioned at least under. Government policies. 542 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,160 The inventory of Radioactive. Waste if. 543 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,000 Nuclear continues to grow. Will itself grow. 544 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,520 So there are interesting things about that. 545 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,520 I think as well it's worth. Saying there are challenges. 546 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,960 Having said that, with producing a geological disposal facility, 547 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,680 there's a whole set of hoops that have to be jumped through. 548 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,080 First in placement of waste for example in a GDF has recently 549 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,000 been put back from the twenty 40s to the 20 fifties and the 550 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,560 high level waste will only begin to be in place from 2075. 551 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,840 So we're talking. Really about a long time scale 552 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,000 at the. Same time, the sighting policy 553 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,760 is another challenge. It. 554 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,240 Relies on what's called. Volunteerism, that is. 555 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,600 That a community has. Basically to say yes. 556 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,720 And that means there has. To be a test of public support 557 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,680 which allows a. Community to provide an opinion. 558 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,640 On whether a. GDF can be cited in its area and 559 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,920 if that opinion is negative. It's off. 560 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,480 Simple as that. Following on from the process of 561 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,320 working with a successful community to. 562 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,640 Achieve a successful test of public support. 563 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,400 And then you've. Got all. 564 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,640 Kinds of other things you need to. 565 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,920 Do for example boreholes you have to get all the requisite. 566 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,000 Consents and safety permits. And you also. 567 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,000 Had to get a development consent. 568 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,480 Order because the GDF. Would be a nationally 569 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,800 significant. Infrastructure project and 570 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,040 that's what you have to do. And then of course, all of these 571 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,360 kind of things when you add them. 572 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,280 Together first in. Placement of waste in the 20 573 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,640 fifties to final closure from now, that's about 180 years. 574 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,320 And then one final challenge. There's enormous. 575 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,880 Skill shortages in nuclear. At the moment. 576 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,760 Because so much is going. On and that is not. 577 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,280 A trivial issue actually, but the. 578 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,400 Government is doing things about that. 579 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,000 And so actually are many of the. Private companies we started. 580 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,080 Our conversation today talking about image, about public 581 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,440 perceptions, nuclear strikes me as one of these industries where 582 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,560 there's probably a lot of misconceptions and myths about 583 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,880 the the about the industry. What would you say are those big 584 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,280 myths? And maybe you could set a few 585 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,000 straight forwards today. Yeah. 586 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,600 Yeah, well, I think the main one is. 587 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,400 Basically radiation. Is seen by many people per 588 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,200 southeast is dangerous. But you have to be really 589 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,400 careful about this. Because radiation is something 590 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,840 we all experience in our daily lives as natural background is 591 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,560 that people will tell you in in all sorts of places they always 592 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,520 love the. Example that even bananas give. 593 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,120 Off some kind of radiation going on from that. 594 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,600 Of course, another thing is that not all radioactive material is 595 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,320 being used for bad purposes. There's nuclear power, of 596 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,760 course. That's important in its own. 597 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,640 Way and it's carbon free but. Also, it's worth remembering. 598 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,360 All of the medical uses of of nuclear. 599 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,080 Research. Reactors and psychrotrons. 600 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,360 That are used then. In scanners, some medical. 601 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,600 Procedures and so on, but that isn't to. 602 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,200 Say of course. It's once trying to. 603 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,240 Kind of minimise the fact that the radioactive way. 604 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,200 Somebody is certainly. Extremely problematic, but it is 605 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,040 to. Say that you. 606 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,240 Can overdo it. Finally, of course, there's the 607 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,840 secrecy myth, the myth that somehow all of the all of this 608 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:05,840 is. Kind of taking. 609 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,920 Place behind closed doors, and so on and so forth. 610 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,240 I don't know whether that was. True or not? 611 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,280 But I don't think it's true now. If you most people. 612 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,280 Are just amazed by the amount of. 613 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,880 Information that's actually available online. 614 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,120 They don't believe in the. 1st place that. 615 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,920 It's there so they don't go looking for it, but it's not. 616 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,240 Difficult to find these. Things. 617 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,960 For example, the inventory of all the waste in some detail is 618 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:40,080 there from 20. Two. 2022 online and the whole 619 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,040 series of these kinds of different things and a lot of 620 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,280 the kind when you see these barriers around various nuclear 621 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,160 facilities and that kind of thing, that's for people's 622 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,360 protection. Let me be very clear about that 623 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,800 and was trying to make sure that you don't have people wandering 624 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,800 around where they shouldn't be. Nigel, it's been. 625 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,680 A pleasure to have you on the podcast. 626 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,560 Thank you so much for your time. And maybe we'll invite you back 627 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,480 in a few years to see how some of these things are getting on. 628 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,600 And we wish you and the committee well with your task. 629 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:14,560 OK, Adam, thank. You very much. 630 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:26,000 It's been enjoyable talking to you thanks to Adam and. 631 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,760 Nigel for taking time out to share their conversation with 632 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,840 the APM Podcast. Don't forget to rate and review 633 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,520 us wherever you get your podcasts. 634 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,040 You can find out more about Nigel's work with Quorum on 635 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,800 gov.uk. And if you want to get in touch 636 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,639 with your feedback, suggestions, or ideas for topics we should 637 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:48,000 cover, e-mail us at APM Podcast at thinkpublishing.co.uk. 638 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,120 Spotify users can also send us feedback directly within the 639 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,480 Spotify app by responding to the Q&A. 640 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,760 That's it for this episode. Thanks again for listening.