Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the roject profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host.
In this podcast, I'm speaking to two project professionals who
work in completely different sectors about how core project
management skills combined with sector specific knowledge can
give you a career that is highly transferable from 1 industry to
another. It's International Women's Day
this week, so the fact that they are both successful women in
project management is something to celebrate too.
So let's meet Josie Harris and Anna Ustinuk.
Josie, A trained chemist, is Global Business development
Director at Domino Printing Sciences.
They're the people who make and place the labels and products
and packaging, while Anna is a project manager at Harrison
Parrot, an international arts management agency.
But I'll let them explain more about what they do themselves.
Both are members of the APM Interest Network.
Women in Project Management or Whip them Listen on for their
advice on what it takes to get ahead as a project manager no
matter which sector you work in. So, JC, would you like to tell
us a little bit about your role and the business you work for?
Yeah, sure. So I work for a company called
Domino Printing Sciences, based just out on the on the outskirts
of Cambridge, and we manufacture industrial coding, marking and
printing equipment that puts codes, data and graphics onto
products across factories all over the world.
So if you think things like expiry dates and QR codes,
they're the kind of things that you'd come across every day that
are the products that we make. My current role in the
organisation is a global business development director.
I've got a focus on how we approach our OEM business.
So that's people who make original equipment,
manufacturing bits of packaging equipment.
This involves shaping a commercial strategy and defining
how we do our projects to drive growth with this type of group
of customers. I've been doing this since
August last year and before that I led the programme management
office where I launched and created the the team to make
sure that our R&D projects were being translated into new
products and we got some launches and some successes out
from those. Thanks, Jose.
That's really interesting. So I'll come back to you and ask
how you kind of jump from project programme management up
into the senior leadership team, because I know that that's
something listeners will be really interested in and also
how you found yourself in project management in the 1st
place. But thank you, Anna.
Tell us a bit about who you work for and your.
Role I currently work for Harrison Parrot Group which is
an international arts management company which overseas different
areas of creative management. It a main focus is arts
management, so managing artists, classical musicians mainly, but
not only classical but we also do touring, international
touring, publishing, a bit of education and creative
consultancy. My role is more client facing,
so I manage a portfolio of high profile classical musicians and
I deliver everything. They participate in our
international performances, major events, recording
productions on a day-to-day basis.
That means international logistics, everything related to
visas, travel, accommodation, but also contracts and
communicating with a lot of external stakeholders who in in
our case would be promoters, venues, orchestras.
And I think the main focus is to align everyone on the same
vision while protecting artists interests because we are acting
on, on their behalf, creative interests but also financial
interests. Before that I I worked in, lived
and worked in Moscow, Russia. And I was part of a big theatre
festival. So it was a theatre production.
We had a very big festival in Moscow which took place annually
and we would bring all different theatre productions to Moscow
from all over the world and Russia.
And then we would tour best Russian performances all over
the world. But my main role was the What
Ceremony, which was a pinnacle of the festival I just
mentioned. And it was a huge production, 3
hours live show and every year it was a completely new
production. So it required me to be
responsible for full life cycle of all steps of project
management, starting from building creative ideas through
all the stages of production and finally getting it on stage and
presenting our our performance to the audience.
It was quite exciting. Yeah, thank you.
I mean, two really interesting worlds.
You, you both have two very different backgrounds.
So Josie, what's your background and how did you get into project
management? So I'm a trained chemist and so
I actually started my career in research and development.
So I started off developing new products, so inks in this
instance, and all of those projects were being run.
And as I started to kind of get more technical responsibilities,
I started becoming more accountable for the delivery of
the developments and then started doing all of the
elements that we required to get a new product out into the into
the market. So started becoming a bit of a
project manager and then a bit more programme management as I
was looking after the collection of all those projects that would
be collectively delivering the new product portfolio into the
into the marketplace. About five years ago.
I was then asked to kind of use those skills I'd kind of
demonstrated in delivering some of those projects and programmes
to create the formal programme management office, to really
improve the efficiency and predictability of what we were
delivering and then to build project management as a core
competency within new product development.
It was a gradual shift for you then towards project management.
What? What was it about it that
attracted you? And I really like seeing the
kind of projects deliver on time.
So I think when you say you're going to do something, I really
like to see that being done. And so I think that's kind of
one of those things that it kind of just gives a lot of
satisfaction to, to seeing the outcomes be delivered.
And then because I really liked working with different teams of
people and could bring people together towards that kind of
common goal, started becoming quite effective in getting stuff
done. So yeah, just started really
enjoying it. And you're an OPM member, you
involved with the Whippam Interest Network as well.
Did you find find yourself on a kind of more formal than route
towards professionalisation as a project manager?
Yes, I haven't actually done any formal qualifications.
I've kind of done the the learning on the on the job, but
I have used a lot of the resources that APM have in some
of the tools and techniques that project managers do and
encourage others in the team that training is a good kind of
place to to start with things. So I've really kind of used a
lot of those things for inspiration about how to build
the tools and methodologies that we're going to use and kind of
bring that discipline into the into the team.
Anna, how did you? I understand you.
You trained concert pianists. So how did you have you found
yourself moving over to project management?
So I was training as a as a pianist and I was studying and
at the same time a new course opened up and it the name of the
course, master course was music business Management.
And I became very curious what it might give me because I think
by that time I naturally did a lot of things, you know, among,
among our events in the university to make everything
happen. Because if you, if you want to
have a concert or a performance, someone needs to organise this.
So I just realised that I do it already.
I help my peers to, to connect people to, to do all the
backstage things that you don't necessarily see on a day.
And I did quite well. So I decided why not to try this
course. So then I did 2 courses at the
same time, which was quite a nightmare.
But then I, I heard a friend of mine offered me a position at
that very, very festival, theatre Festival.
And that's how it started. So I first was just an
administrator for the coming theatre companies which would
come to Moscow and then I did a bit of logistics, hotel and
travel and visas. And then I think in a few months
they offered me a full time position being a producer of the
ceremony award, which was a big, big step and big challenge for
me because I was very young back then and it was a lot of
responsibility. But it was amazing, mind
blowing. What is it about managing
projects that you particularly like, Anna?
In our sector, it's never boring, I must say.
So I just like this job to be very much alive.
So you are challenged constantly and you grow with every project.
Project and you are also surrounded, but so many by so
many absolutely brilliant, outstanding people.
I'm not not only talking about artists, I'm talking about
producers, other product managers, technical teams.
Everyone is so inspiring and so, so deeply involved in what they
do and they love it so much. So it's a great place to be
because it's constant inspiration.
And I think also, since I work internationally, it's, I'm, I'm
really very happy to, to be able to communicate with so many
people. But not even, you know, it's not
even about international work. It's it's about that you meet
people from different backgrounds, cultural and you
see how differently people work around the world, around the
world, different approach. What's what's kind of jumping
out at me is that both of you mentioned the people side of
project management and there's a lot of discussion within the
profession at the moment because you can have the technical
skills, but it's the people side of things that is often the
difference between a successful project and one that isn't so
successful. So I think what I'd like to get
your opinions on are like, what are the core project management
skills that you need to be successful in your job?
And perhaps we could start on the people side of things.
If you, if you don't mind JC, do you want to, do you want to
start a kind of discussion on that?
Yeah, I think that kind of stakeholder management's really
essential. So kind of understanding the
people in the team, the people you're working with and how to
balance kind of different needs and different perspectives that
that people might have during the the project.
So being able to talk to different people, talk their
language and bring them together around kind of the project goal
kind of really does make all of that that difference.
And when I was doing things in the programme management office,
we did a lot of work on kind of getting good project management
data in getting tools, templates and getting things into a
database. And it was really interesting.
I was sold that as that would make your project management
life easy because you could then focus on the kind of people side
of project management, which is really where people are adding
the value into into the day life.
I'm going to pin you down because what you said was really
interesting, but I'm sure it's much harder to achieve in daily
life then then you say it sounds brilliant, but what have been
the key lessons you've learnt about managing stakeholders and
also about our guest managing a project team?
What have you learned over the years that you'd do you wish
you'd known when you were starting out?
Yeah, I think there's kind of the the needs that people have
in their role. So what do they need to do in
terms of their role and their accountability.
So what you're kind of what do you need to do as part of your
job? And then the needs that they
have as a person as well. So you might be communicating
with them slightly differently because of who they are as a
person or not because of the role.
So spending a bit of time and getting to know people really
does make life a lot easier, especially if you have to have
those awkward conversations later on when things go go off
track. So I always spend enough time at
the start getting to know people, building the trust,
getting the team to feel like they're a collection of people
who want to work together so that when things get tough later
on, it makes life a lot, lot easier.
Sorry, how do you actually do that?
Is it just like taking people out for a coffee or just like
having a chat around the office? I don't know how much time you
spend remote working because it is harder now that people aren't
in the office the whole time. So that face to face kind of
serendipitous conversations don't always happen.
Have you got any tips about how to do what you suggest?
Yeah, I think we've been trying because we all remote work.
So actually we don't have that face to face opportunity so
often. So people will be in the office
occasion a bit very rarely and the whole team in doing things
and then some people are working in different countries
contributing to the project as well.
So it's really hard to get that, that together.
So we've been trying different things over the time.
So trying to have good kick off meetings, trying to have
brainstorming sessions, have kind of regular updates, have
those kind of coffees and chats with people in kind of smaller
groups. And I guess kind of just try to
find a way to try and get it to work in a, in a remote
environment. Definitely haven't found all the
answers to all the questions. So yeah, it's always, always an
experiment on how to do things differently each time.
OK. Thanks Josie.
Anna, what what would you say the core kind of people related
project management skills that you need to have to be
successful in a job like yours? It's interesting because jobs
are so different, but what Josie mentioned about stakeholder
communicate and communication and stakeholder engagement is
exactly what I wanted to to bring.
I completely agree that stakeholder management is most
essential, I think in our sector, especially because you
just need to translate from one language to another.
I don't mean languages in a traditional convenient way, but
from creative language into languages which other
stakeholders would understand. Oh, OK.
So, yeah, so I understand. So it's like the so for example.
Yeah, as you say, the artists and the productions and all of
that language that surrounds that world.
And then you've got your world of getting stuff done through
projects. Yeah.
Yes, exactly. And I also think that you, you
need to adjust your tone and your message to who you speak
with because you will be speaking differently with
artists and with some financial institution, government
officials or I don't know, constructors, contractors,
vendors, and every, every group has its own priorities.
And that's why it's so important to bring the, bring them on onto
the same page, but keeping in mind that everyone has
different, different interests and you need to balance this and
balance their expectations as well.
And yes, communication, as I said, adjusting your message so
that you are completely sure that everyone understands,
really understands and not only lists, but he understands what
you mean and what you want from them, especially
internationally. We could even talk about, you
know, keeping in mind that you work with different time zones.
And if you send your message in the evening, someone might get
it at 5:00 AM in the morning and get very upset because we never
switch off our phones, for example.
But this is a, this is just an example.
And I think another important core skill is risk management,
which I would also put here because we operate with life
events mostly. And in life events you don't
really have, you cannot postpone it.
You almost never can, you know, delay our premiere.
Of course you can, but it will be something extraordinary.
So normally you operate in real, real time.
And so risk management is are something absolutely crucial
because you will not have the second chance to redo something
and the more things you are able to anticipate and mitigate, the
better the outcome will be. Josie, is there, is that
something? I saw you nodding your head.
Then it's risk obviously a kind of big factor you need to manage
as well. Yeah, definitely.
So I think risks and assumptions actually are kind of 22 areas
that I'd say are really important.
So I think, as Anna said, kind of thinking about what risk
could happen and actually thinking in advance what you're
going to do when they go wrong. So when you're in the panic when
it goes wrong, you've kind of already got some strategies in
place that you might bring into play.
Although I've never found any of the risks because I've actually
played out how I've thought they're going to play out.
But at least it kind of gives you a bit of a starting point to
not be in too much of a kind of crazy state with things.
And then the assumptions. I think one of the big lessons
that we've learnt in our kind of R&D type projects is make sure
you challenge those really early on, try and get the team to to
kind of feel comfortable saying what are they assuming and what
you just assumed is going to be happening in the project because
they're quite often the bits. Sorry, just could you give an
example to bring that to life? Yeah.
So I think we people would make assumptions on how easy things
are. So we'd quite often have our
product managers, we'll be the ones that are representing their
their customers and they'll be like, oh, we'd like this new
product to do this thing. And everyone just assumes it's
going to be really easy. And then the technical team
start looking into it and they'll say, actually, this is a
lot more harder than than we think.
It's going to be something that you thought was going to be two
months is going to take us two years.
And if people don't feel comfortable kind of saying,
actually, I don't really agree with the, the sort of the, the
inputs that you're giving us, then you get into a lot of pain
later on because you start your project saying it's going to
take two months and it's still going to take you 2 years.
But no one ever brings it up at the start.
That's really interesting point because that's sort of taps into
sort of optimism bias and that we are naturally more optimistic
about how much we can achieve and how quickly we can do it.
I was interested to pick up on something you just said around
people being able to speak up about these things.
So to kind of mitigate risk, I, I guess it's about
understanding, curious, possible what, what's going on and what
could present itself as a, as a problem.
And then if anything happens, knowing that people feel OK
about raising it. So have you got any advice to
people who the project managers or project leaders who want to
ensure, I guess it's a culture, a project team culture where
people feel empowered to do that?
Is there anything you've learnt or that you any advice you pass
on? So actually one of the programme
managers in my team, someone called Lucy, who it was great at
doing this. She was really good at kind of
bringing people together in a, in a safe space.
And she put a lot of time and energy into developing those
personal relationships with with people so that she could kind of
tell if they were not feeling comfortable.
And if they didn't bring it up during the session, she'd then
go and have a conversation afterwards and say, I can see
you were feeling a bit uneasy with that.
Do you want to tell me a bit more about it?
And then she would be their voice for them as well.
We deal with quite a lot of technical people as well.
So I guess stereotypically a bit more introverted than some other
people maybe. So found some of the online
tools that you can use. So online whiteboards are great
where people can just put post it notes up and don't have to
say anything. They can just put a post it note
with what they're worried about and then someone will take it
seriously and do something about it.
That's a great piece of advice. I haven't heard that before.
That's interesting. Can I ask you about the language
you use as well? So I mean, you do have a, a kind
of technical background. So I'm, I'm assuming you can
understand a lot of, of the kind of technical aspects of the
work, but no project manager can be expected to be an expert on,
on everything that's going on with the projects.
Have you what's what are your thoughts on the language of
project management and not necessarily being a kind of
subject expert and everything? Yeah, I think that's something
that I've seen kind of quite challenging for some of our
project managers in the team, because most of them have
actually come in from a technical background.
So quite often they've done them, they've done the work
before, They then manage the projects.
And so trying to keep them out of the details is quite often
the big, big challenge because they understand the language too
much when people are talking about it.
And so trying to get them to understand that they're not the
technical expert, there's other people who are playing that role
and they need to just be great at project management.
So kind of really focus on the planning, the risks, the
communications, and make sure they keep the team alive so they
can keep their technical experts free to focus on actually
getting the work done and doing what they're best at as well.
So I've actually tried breaking some of those kind of barriers
down by putting people into projects where they're, they're
not an expert in in the area. So actually all of a sudden
they're having to deal with project teams where they're
talking a different technical language.
Two things. So all of a sudden you're out of
your comfort zone. And so all you're doing is then
relying on your project management skills to get to get
things done. Are they happy about that or
that that must be quite a big shock to the system and then
figuring out how you go go forward with it.
Yes, I think we kind of set up a bit of a community within the
project managers so people could kind of share their experiences.
And if they were having some challenges, they could come
together and ask for a bit of advice and have kind of some
sessions together to talk about how they've dealt with different
problems in in the past as well. Particularly as we started
getting more involved in projects that did a lot more
software development. A lot of the project managers
come from quite a traditional project management background.
And then software engineers really want to work in a really
agile way. So blending those two worlds to
do what you needed to do to make sure you're predictably
delivering, but giving people the flexibility to work with
agility was quite a challenge. Any any lessons you learnt from
that about how to get that right?
So that was all about language and actually trying to get
people to stop fixating on the words that were being used and
try and understand the spirit of the conversation and understand
that all everyone wanted was to get get the work done, get the
work done well and get a product out to the customers.
So, yeah, we had a lot of time where people would get really
fixated on particular terms and it just kind of completely
blocked the activity that was going on.
So even using the word project became something that we kind of
had to shy away from. So we were doing lots of
initiatives for a while. Initiatives, I like that.
Are there any, Anna, are there any other core kind of project
management skills that that you really need to be successful
that in order to deliver a project well?
Yes, I of course, I think main would be you need to exceptional
scheduling skills and time management because it's, it is a
high, high paced, very intense environment with a lot of things
being on fire constantly and also you're constantly managing
creative chaos. If I, if I may, because artists
they don't necessarily, not necessarily they, they, they do
not operate in business terms. They, they are led by
inspiration. So you cannot feed them within
normal timelines and deadlines, although you have because you
are bridging them and reality. So I think you, you are the one
who is the main stabilising force and you need this
exceptional scheduling techniques, time management and
you need to optimise constantly and streamline everything,
communication, all the processes so that you move faster and the
more efficient, as efficient as you can, but at the same time
never at the expense of artists trust and artistic integrity and
quality of the final product. So I think this is the most
essential thing. JC What are the biggest kind of
project management challenges that you face in your in your
work? I think it's kind of interesting
kind of Anna talking about working with the people she does
with kind of being creative because actually lots of people
who are in R&D roles are creative, but obviously in a in
a slightly different way. So being able to find that
balance between long term innovation where people just
want to go and explore, don't want to be bound by any kind of
timelines or constraints. And they're being able to bring,
bring that in and rein that in when actually you need to start
thinking about when you're going to be delivering is a real
challenge. I think for for the project
managers. And I think being able to deal
with that kind of ambiguity and uncertainty that kind of starts
off with with some of the technical projects is is really
challenging. And I remember having a
conversation with someone in my team where they were just
telling me how I just couldn't possibly understand.
They couldn't be bound by by any time they just needed to, to go
off into the lab and explore. And how dare I ask them like
milestones and all of this for the plans.
And I was like, well, just tell me by this date if you can do it
or not. And you have to sort of balance
things in that way. And does that work for you?
So kind of being open to accommodate their needs and
their way of thinking, is that how you would approach it?
Yeah, I think it's, it's kind of recognising where you are in a
project and what what the kind of levy you need to be pulling
at one time. So there are those bits that the
kind of the fuzzy front end when people are trying to work out
how to how to get stuff done, where you need to give people
the opportunity to to go and explore but not get stuck down
any rabbit holes. And so I think it's a real skill
to kind of open, open things out and then get people to close
things down to start saying actually now this is what we're
actually going to be doing. And then at some point you need
to say, actually, you've been now going into delivery mode.
So we need to now start thinking about making those commitments,
hitting those timelines and actually getting things done
when we said we were going to get them done.
I'd like to ask both of you what are the most important lessons
you've learned around delivering successful projects?
Anna, what have you, If you could pass on one piece of
advice about how to deliver a project successfully in in the
broadest sense, what would you say?
My main thing is no assumptions, never assume anything and verify
verify everything and I learned it hard way.
How do you mean? That sounds interesting.
Can you give us this so I, I mean that we have this proverb
in my mother tongue. Trust but verify and it's, and
it's not really about it's not that I, I don't trust people,
but I am the one who is responsible for the final
results. So if if someone tells me that
they've done it million times or if something has worked for many
years, I would still check it. I would check all the
dependencies, I would check all the technical specifications.
I would ask millions of questions.
And sometimes people don't really like it.
But again, I learned hard way that something might not work
when you least expect it. So, and I think that's that's
again because because we deal with life events and if it
doesn't work in real time on stage there, there is no way to
to redo it. That's why it is so important.
So yeah, I think, I think that's that would be it.
Yeah. And what about EJC?
Any key kind of project management lessons you've picked
up? I think it's understanding kind
of the role accountabilities that go with things.
So actually I'm going to probably say the opposite to
Anna. And probably because we're in a
an environment where actually things can go wrong and you've
got time to to do something about them is I think
challenging those assumptions is really important, but also
making sure people feel accountable for their part of
the project management jigsaw as well, so.
How do you do that? How do you actually make that
happen in practise? So we, we spent a lot of time
actually defining kind of some key roles and kind of rolling
those out across the project. So we created the concept of a
project leadership team where there were kind of key, key
roles that people would be stepping into in addition to
them actually doing some of the work as well.
So you may be the technical lead on the project, which means
you'd have certain accountabilities that would
would go alongside it. So we tried to make it really
clear what that meant and what was expected from you.
And then also working with kind of the people managers, so the
team leaders to make sure they were on understanding that they
were accountable for delivering the tasks and making sure the
task got done so that all the projects could come together
because there were lots of different streams all happening
at the same time. OK, thank you.
What about you, Anna? Any any key other key project
management lessons you'd pass on?
I, I would still talk about building relationships because I
think it's so, so important. It's not about, it's not
communication, it's not soft skill in, in this industry.
I think it's an infrastructure you work in and it's, it's so
important and you never know when you will need this
particular person again. And the more, the more your
network is the better. And it's in a way building these
relationships is risk mitigation.
And I just wanted to follow up on all what Josie said about
responsibility and accountability.
I think the, the main difference here is that creative talents
they are accountable for create for creative outcome.
They don't need, they are brilliant in a different way.
They don't need to think about all these sort of things, risks,
schedules, because they need to have this mental space to create
beautiful pieces of art. And that's why you as a project
manager and maybe technical director as well, that's who are
responsible for, for the final outcome in terms of that,
everything runs smoothly. But you cannot, it's
responsibility onto, onto creative people because it's not
really their responsibility. At the same time, you don't
control, they don't, they're not involved in what you control,
but you don't control creative talent as well.
And you this is another specific.
You don't control the creative outcome in this project.
It's really interesting out of on that one because I think a
lot of the time that we spend in our project teams is trying to
make the team feel like they're A-Team.
So actually people would be talking to people about risks
all the time. And so I'm wondering whether
that's taking up a lot of mental capacity for some of the
technical experts who should be thinking about other things when
actually we're asking them to think about all these risks that
might not happen. So yeah, might take that one
back into the team. OK, that's good to hear.
Is part of what you need to do it is, is it to sell the
benefits of project management? Because there are project
managers who, I mean, you set up a programme office, Josie, in a
place that never had one. And I've spoken to other people
where they've had to formalise project management within the
organisation. And often they can be met with
some scepticism or hostility because you're seeing it as
people who might complicate things or get people involved in
horrendous Gantt charts. When in fact, what the people
I've, I've I've spoken to have been successful are the ones who
just say I'm going to make your life easier.
You don't need to worry about these things.
So these are the benefits I'll give you as as project manager.
Is that something that you've needed to do or thought about?
Yeah, definitely found when the programme management office
initially got created, there was quite a lot of resistance to it.
And all the things you've just said is they heard the term
project management and assumed that was going to be more admin,
more hoops they had to jump through, through more process
that was going to get implemented.
And so to try and overcome that, we kind of really focused on
having just enough process and kind of being a little bit
sneaky about bringing some processes in.
So the project managers will be getting data from the project
teams without sitting them down in front of a big Gantt chart or
massive Excel spreadsheet. So they'd kind of go and try and
collect the data secretly rather than have these big meetings
where you'd be going through all of those those things.
And we were definitely trying to sell it on the volume what good
project management brings. So if you can get the project
managers doing their job so what's asked of them, you can
actually start seeing that delivery starts going up.
Conversations that needed to happen early on start to happen
early on, and then stress is reduced for like the whole team.
So kind of found after a few runs of a few projects, people
started getting on board with it pretty quickly because I saw it
actually made their life easier. And we actually even got to the
point where people started asking for project managers to
start getting involved in projects because they saw it as
someone who was helping those wheels keep on turning.
That was made you very happy to have that it.
Was, but then you start having conversations about where does,
where is a project manager needed?
And it's project managers are not task managers.
And so if you're just doing some tasks, then people can just get
on and do that themselves. So trying to say the project
managers value is when you've got these very kind of complex
projects where multiple things are coming together across
different functions and that will need to happen at the same
time. It's not just about kind of
managing someone's day-to-day tasks.
And so that kind of ties into kind of scope creep because that
that's a common problem as well. Have you got any advice about
how to manage that? Is it just being very upfront
about what you can and cannot help with?
Yeah, I think it's definitely saying this is, this is what we
think the role is and this is what we're going to be be doing.
And then if someone asks something to be done that's not
as part of that being very transparent about about I'm not
doing it. I always have conversations with
the project managers that it's better to have an awkward
conversation early. So if someone says I'd like you
to do this thing and you don't think you should be doing it,
have that awkward conversation early because it's going to be a
horrible conversation later on when someone's assumed that
you've been doing all the stuff for them that you haven't
actually been doing. Yeah, that's that's a good
point. Anna, was there anything you
wanted to? Add Yeah, I actually wanted to
add about this scope creep because I think this is another
quite challenging but a different thing to talk about.
So when somebody, I mean, create creative, your creative talent
brings you an absolutely brilliant idea, you know, two
weeks before the before the show and everything is already
settled budget, you don't have time, but you just simply cannot
say no because you understand that it might elevate the whole
performance. And that's how inspiration
works. So I think it, it is essential
in, in, in my role that I find the way to do that.
It's not, it's not always easy, but scope is very much fluid in
creative arts and I think I always just keep it in mind.
So probably I have some contingency plans for that and
and I might reduce something else and I, I might fight find
the ways to make it work and I need to balance it with the time
constraints and budget constraints.
So I would probably reduce how much something else costs, you
know, manufacturing or I, I would probably cut some, some
other pieces entirely. But I will be able to fit this
new idea into into my schedule and into my budget if we all
understand that this is really important.
JC I'm particularly interested in asking you about any career
advice because you're a kind of project manager, programme
manager. He's moved into a broader
business role as as part of the senior leadership team.
And this is really an ambition for the profession that project
management as a career can really set you up to be
successful in a broader business capacity and, and at a higher
level. So 2 questions really.
What advantages has a career in project management brought to
you and how have you managed to step up into a kind of broader
business role? And any advice?
That's three questions, sorry. And any advice you'd you'd pass
on to people who have the ambition to do that too?
Yes, I think the nice thing about rojects is you see how
different bits of the business work and how different bits of
the businesses work together and how it starts to fit.
And then because you're working with different people in
different areas, you start understanding how to manage
those different stakeholders who who've got those different
needs. So I think learning how to set
that clear direction, which is what you're doing in in your
projects, how you start kind of bridging any of those silos that
always exist within any big organisation.
And then start building that environment where people
actually really enjoy being part of the project team and they
feel confident and supported. I think has really set me up for
the leadership roles that I've been moving around with within
the the organisation. So really kind of learning how
to lead disparate teams that don't directly report to you so
that they can pull together around a common goal is really
key. So you've got that kind of broad
perspective, but what what are those new skills you need to
develop or understand that you need to attain in order to move
into a broader business role? And I think I've spent quite a
lot of effort personally kind of building my network within in
the organisation and getting people to see the the kind of
things I'm good at doing. So putting kind of my skill set
forward. I'm someone who really likes
creating structure within organisations and when sort of a
transformation needs to happen, that's where I really enjoy sort
of spending my time. So getting people to see how I
think, how I do things, how I execute on project activities
has been really important as as part of kind of moving up and
moving in in the room. And then over the past couple of
years, I've always taken the mantra kind of just say yes when
an opportunity arises. So even if it seems really
daunting, just kind of step into it and embrace it.
And nothing has gone Touchwood terribly wrong for me so far.
So the role I'm in now, I don't have any commercial experience.
It's a bit of the business that I don't understand but really
keen to learn and really keen to expand and grow my skills and
knowledge of how things work. Joe Well, that's really
interesting you say, because it's International Women's Day
this week and you're both great role models of women who are
successfully in project management in very different
sectors. But JC, what you were just
saying then about saying yes. So I know this, there's been
research done about women and more reluctant to say yes to
opportunities that they're not sure about, whereas men can be
overconfident and just jump in and, and do it.
I mean, not sure I'll ask, I'll ask both of you how, how
important is it to celebrate International Women's Day?
But also how important is, is it to acknowledge the, that you are
a female in, in this environment?
And it has that been anything that's been beneficial,
disadvantageous to, to either of you?
And any advice to, to women who want to get ahead in the sectors
you work in? So again, I'm sorry, that's like
3 questions in one, but I don't know who'd like to go first.
I'm happy to go first. I think yes, in a natural it is
very important to celebrate it and but not as a symbolic
gesture. I think it's just another,
another opportunity to raise awareness about about this
because we still have this still have this representation
problem. And the more visible we make it,
the more we talk about this, I think the better.
But at the same time. The real work of course happens
during the rest of the year of 364 Days and when I joined Whip
Them, I think I was just so inspired by examples of women
from different industries leading great projects, thinking
strategically and supporting each other and learning from
each other and sharing experience so that I just
realise how important it is to to feel supported.
And it's not. Sometimes it's not even about
opportunities, but it's about being able to share your
concerns and some problems that you might have on the way.
Something like APM draws people from so many different sectors
and backgrounds. Often you you can face similar
problems, but people have found different ways of tackling them
which would never have you never have thought about.
It's just because they come with very different perspective on on
things. Yeah, I agree.
I think even the conference that APM and Whipam holds every,
every March, I think it's on the 6th of March this year.
I attended the IT last year and it was absolutely amazing how
many women come there from completely different sectors.
But we see that the problems we are facing are they are pretty
much the same and it's so important to share, to network
and to say it out loud what you are dealing with and find
support. OK.
Thanks. Josie.
What would you like to add? Yeah, I, I agree that I think
it's really nice to have kind of International Women's Day to
kind of give that visibility to people.
So to kind of really put those role models into the spotlight
so that people can see that there are people who were kind
of really pushing, pushing the boundaries and kind of driving
change and challenging the status quo.
But also agree with Anna that it does need to be that kind of all
year round activity. So not just action on, on, on
that one day. And also agree with Anna around
the work that Wickham does to kind of really kind of women in
the spotlight in in project management.
I think it's really important to to have that consistent message
that's that's coming out. But I think International
Women's Day is great to actually have that kind of official day
where you can put the spotlight really brightly on people.
OK, thanks. Finally, I wanted to ask you
about the future of project management.
So do you, do you kind of more personally, do you visit a
future where project management does become even more
transferable so that you, you would feel happy about jumping
into a completely different sector?
I think that's can be challenging to people.
And I think that that perhaps is going to be the future of
project management because it's a desperate kind of skills
shortage for kind of project managers in every field.
But just your it might be nice just to wrap up by asking you
what what what you think the future holds and do you think
that you would ever jump into a completely different sector?
Yeah, So I think, I think for me, so I've done some talks
previously about how being a scientist sets you up really
well for a kind of a career in in project management and how
all the things I learned when I was training as a chemist
basically set you up to do project management.
I can see doing other talks now about how coming from a project
management background really sets you up for senior
leadership positions as well. So you can see how all of those
skills and people management and all of that really helps, helps
with things. What I've kind of been seeing in
our company is we're doing lots of change.
We've got lots of change we need to make in the organisation to,
to really drive growth and sell, sell more kind of products to
our to our customers. And I think project management's
really key for that because when you're actually trying to do
something different and bringing together cross functional groups
of people that don't always work together is really important to
kind of overcome those real traditional hierarchical
functional structures that often exist.
And so I think if you want to deliver things more efficiently,
more predictably and doing things a bit quicker as well, I
think having projects and project management really is key
to doing that. But I can also see the role of
project managers changing quite a lot as well.
So a lot and more with all the kind of AI and all the kind of
automations that are coming through, you can see that a lot
of the admin tasks that people traditionally associate with
project management becoming a lot more automated.
And so project managers then need to start focusing on the
more human side of project management.
And we've talked about that quite a lot today already.
So pulling people together, keeping them motivated and
making sure kind of stay focused on delivering those outcomes
will become the kind of the key to success for a really strong
project manager. JC that's amazing.
I it's almost as though I put the words I wanted to convey
into your house. That's fantastic.
Thank you. Anna.
What? What would you like to say?
Yeah, I completely agree with Josie because we're leaving such
uncertain times and not only with the, you know, technology
transforming and AI and everything Josie mentioned, but
also geopolitical. You, you basically you never
know what, what will be tomorrow.
So the, the period of time you can plan ahead getting shorter
and shorter, I guess. So it's just natural that
organisations are trying to build teams around very specific
goals rather than this heavy structures which are hardly
being moved. And I do also agree that all
that can be done by AI will be done by AI in terms of
reporting, tracking, all the scheduling and planning.
So all these technical skills I think will become less
important. What is still very much
important and to what AI cannot do yet, I hope will not be able
to do is the human connection and all the communication
strategies and ability to bring all the people together, find
the common ground and leadership.
Being able to lead people. But towards 1 common goal I I
think will be even more and more important.
So everything related to human connections are are that that's
where the future is. Thanks, Hannah.
That's a kind of nice upbeat way to end this.
And I just wanted to thank both of you so much for your advice
and insight into both of you. Well, so thanks very much.
Thank you. Thank you.
So that just leaves me to thank Josie and Anna for joining us
and to you for listening to the APM podcast.
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