1 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,240 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:21,640 the roject profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,000 the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,800 In this podcast, I'm speaking to two project professionals who 5 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,200 work in completely different sectors about how core project 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,840 management skills combined with sector specific knowledge can 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,920 give you a career that is highly transferable from 1 industry to 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,840 another. It's International Women's Day 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,520 this week, so the fact that they are both successful women in 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,720 project management is something to celebrate too. 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,200 So let's meet Josie Harris and Anna Ustinuk. 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,880 Josie, A trained chemist, is Global Business development 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,040 Director at Domino Printing Sciences. 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,000 They're the people who make and place the labels and products 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,440 and packaging, while Anna is a project manager at Harrison 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,440 Parrot, an international arts management agency. 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,480 But I'll let them explain more about what they do themselves. 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,640 Both are members of the APM Interest Network. 19 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,240 Women in Project Management or Whip them Listen on for their 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,080 advice on what it takes to get ahead as a project manager no 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,640 matter which sector you work in. So, JC, would you like to tell 22 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,040 us a little bit about your role and the business you work for? 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,120 Yeah, sure. So I work for a company called 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,360 Domino Printing Sciences, based just out on the on the outskirts 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,040 of Cambridge, and we manufacture industrial coding, marking and 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,880 printing equipment that puts codes, data and graphics onto 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,920 products across factories all over the world. 28 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:43,840 So if you think things like expiry dates and QR codes, 29 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,280 they're the kind of things that you'd come across every day that 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,920 are the products that we make. My current role in the 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,400 organisation is a global business development director. 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,800 I've got a focus on how we approach our OEM business. 33 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,560 So that's people who make original equipment, 34 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,520 manufacturing bits of packaging equipment. 35 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,960 This involves shaping a commercial strategy and defining 36 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,800 how we do our projects to drive growth with this type of group 37 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,920 of customers. I've been doing this since 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,280 August last year and before that I led the programme management 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,840 office where I launched and created the the team to make 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,400 sure that our R&D projects were being translated into new 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,520 products and we got some launches and some successes out 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,240 from those. Thanks, Jose. 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,920 That's really interesting. So I'll come back to you and ask 44 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,400 how you kind of jump from project programme management up 45 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,640 into the senior leadership team, because I know that that's 46 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:32,960 something listeners will be really interested in and also 47 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,040 how you found yourself in project management in the 1st 48 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,600 place. But thank you, Anna. 49 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,240 Tell us a bit about who you work for and your. 50 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:44,200 Role I currently work for Harrison Parrot Group which is 51 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,480 an international arts management company which overseas different 52 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,960 areas of creative management. It a main focus is arts 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,800 management, so managing artists, classical musicians mainly, but 54 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,800 not only classical but we also do touring, international 55 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,080 touring, publishing, a bit of education and creative 56 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,520 consultancy. My role is more client facing, 57 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,360 so I manage a portfolio of high profile classical musicians and 58 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,960 I deliver everything. They participate in our 59 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,960 international performances, major events, recording 60 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,080 productions on a day-to-day basis. 61 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:32,040 That means international logistics, everything related to 62 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,520 visas, travel, accommodation, but also contracts and 63 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,120 communicating with a lot of external stakeholders who in in 64 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,680 our case would be promoters, venues, orchestras. 65 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,240 And I think the main focus is to align everyone on the same 66 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,360 vision while protecting artists interests because we are acting 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,720 on, on their behalf, creative interests but also financial 68 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,600 interests. Before that I I worked in, lived 69 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,880 and worked in Moscow, Russia. And I was part of a big theatre 70 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,960 festival. So it was a theatre production. 71 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,240 We had a very big festival in Moscow which took place annually 72 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,120 and we would bring all different theatre productions to Moscow 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,160 from all over the world and Russia. 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,120 And then we would tour best Russian performances all over 75 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,120 the world. But my main role was the What 76 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,160 Ceremony, which was a pinnacle of the festival I just 77 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,960 mentioned. And it was a huge production, 3 78 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,880 hours live show and every year it was a completely new 79 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,680 production. So it required me to be 80 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,560 responsible for full life cycle of all steps of project 81 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,240 management, starting from building creative ideas through 82 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,920 all the stages of production and finally getting it on stage and 83 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,240 presenting our our performance to the audience. 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,320 It was quite exciting. Yeah, thank you. 85 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,080 I mean, two really interesting worlds. 86 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,640 You, you both have two very different backgrounds. 87 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,480 So Josie, what's your background and how did you get into project 88 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,320 management? So I'm a trained chemist and so 89 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,160 I actually started my career in research and development. 90 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,520 So I started off developing new products, so inks in this 91 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,600 instance, and all of those projects were being run. 92 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,120 And as I started to kind of get more technical responsibilities, 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,880 I started becoming more accountable for the delivery of 94 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,360 the developments and then started doing all of the 95 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,040 elements that we required to get a new product out into the into 96 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,160 the market. So started becoming a bit of a 97 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,800 project manager and then a bit more programme management as I 98 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,320 was looking after the collection of all those projects that would 99 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,760 be collectively delivering the new product portfolio into the 100 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:48,600 into the marketplace. About five years ago. 101 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,240 I was then asked to kind of use those skills I'd kind of 102 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,240 demonstrated in delivering some of those projects and programmes 103 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,720 to create the formal programme management office, to really 104 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,800 improve the efficiency and predictability of what we were 105 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,200 delivering and then to build project management as a core 106 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,280 competency within new product development. 107 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,720 It was a gradual shift for you then towards project management. 108 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,200 What? What was it about it that 109 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:14,120 attracted you? And I really like seeing the 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,000 kind of projects deliver on time. 111 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,720 So I think when you say you're going to do something, I really 112 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,480 like to see that being done. And so I think that's kind of 113 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,120 one of those things that it kind of just gives a lot of 114 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,040 satisfaction to, to seeing the outcomes be delivered. 115 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,000 And then because I really liked working with different teams of 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,040 people and could bring people together towards that kind of 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,960 common goal, started becoming quite effective in getting stuff 118 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:35,840 done. So yeah, just started really 119 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,160 enjoying it. And you're an OPM member, you 120 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,960 involved with the Whippam Interest Network as well. 121 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,480 Did you find find yourself on a kind of more formal than route 122 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,320 towards professionalisation as a project manager? 123 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,560 Yes, I haven't actually done any formal qualifications. 124 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,200 I've kind of done the the learning on the on the job, but 125 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,160 I have used a lot of the resources that APM have in some 126 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,160 of the tools and techniques that project managers do and 127 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,280 encourage others in the team that training is a good kind of 128 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:09,400 place to to start with things. So I've really kind of used a 129 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,840 lot of those things for inspiration about how to build 130 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,200 the tools and methodologies that we're going to use and kind of 131 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,160 bring that discipline into the into the team. 132 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,040 Anna, how did you? I understand you. 133 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,200 You trained concert pianists. So how did you have you found 134 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,160 yourself moving over to project management? 135 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,800 So I was training as a as a pianist and I was studying and 136 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,640 at the same time a new course opened up and it the name of the 137 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,520 course, master course was music business Management. 138 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,360 And I became very curious what it might give me because I think 139 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:50,240 by that time I naturally did a lot of things, you know, among, 140 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,640 among our events in the university to make everything 141 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,360 happen. Because if you, if you want to 142 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,800 have a concert or a performance, someone needs to organise this. 143 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,800 So I just realised that I do it already. 144 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:07,080 I help my peers to, to connect people to, to do all the 145 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,440 backstage things that you don't necessarily see on a day. 146 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,800 And I did quite well. So I decided why not to try this 147 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,040 course. So then I did 2 courses at the 148 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,600 same time, which was quite a nightmare. 149 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,920 But then I, I heard a friend of mine offered me a position at 150 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,760 that very, very festival, theatre Festival. 151 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,880 And that's how it started. So I first was just an 152 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:40,200 administrator for the coming theatre companies which would 153 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:46,000 come to Moscow and then I did a bit of logistics, hotel and 154 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,120 travel and visas. And then I think in a few months 155 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,280 they offered me a full time position being a producer of the 156 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,680 ceremony award, which was a big, big step and big challenge for 157 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,520 me because I was very young back then and it was a lot of 158 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,160 responsibility. But it was amazing, mind 159 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,800 blowing. What is it about managing 160 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,800 projects that you particularly like, Anna? 161 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,000 In our sector, it's never boring, I must say. 162 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,040 So I just like this job to be very much alive. 163 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:26,800 So you are challenged constantly and you grow with every project. 164 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:33,640 Project and you are also surrounded, but so many by so 165 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,640 many absolutely brilliant, outstanding people. 166 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,400 I'm not not only talking about artists, I'm talking about 167 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:44,360 producers, other product managers, technical teams. 168 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:51,600 Everyone is so inspiring and so, so deeply involved in what they 169 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,560 do and they love it so much. So it's a great place to be 170 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:57,640 because it's constant inspiration. 171 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:04,200 And I think also, since I work internationally, it's, I'm, I'm 172 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,920 really very happy to, to be able to communicate with so many 173 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,520 people. But not even, you know, it's not 174 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,880 even about international work. It's it's about that you meet 175 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,240 people from different backgrounds, cultural and you 176 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,880 see how differently people work around the world, around the 177 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,800 world, different approach. What's what's kind of jumping 178 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,240 out at me is that both of you mentioned the people side of 179 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,680 project management and there's a lot of discussion within the 180 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:38,760 profession at the moment because you can have the technical 181 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,400 skills, but it's the people side of things that is often the 182 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,360 difference between a successful project and one that isn't so 183 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,360 successful. So I think what I'd like to get 184 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,360 your opinions on are like, what are the core project management 185 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,600 skills that you need to be successful in your job? 186 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,080 And perhaps we could start on the people side of things. 187 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,440 If you, if you don't mind JC, do you want to, do you want to 188 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,840 start a kind of discussion on that? 189 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,160 Yeah, I think that kind of stakeholder management's really 190 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,320 essential. So kind of understanding the 191 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,960 people in the team, the people you're working with and how to 192 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,320 balance kind of different needs and different perspectives that 193 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,560 that people might have during the the project. 194 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:22,280 So being able to talk to different people, talk their 195 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,400 language and bring them together around kind of the project goal 196 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,720 kind of really does make all of that that difference. 197 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,120 And when I was doing things in the programme management office, 198 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,560 we did a lot of work on kind of getting good project management 199 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,320 data in getting tools, templates and getting things into a 200 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,040 database. And it was really interesting. 201 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,520 I was sold that as that would make your project management 202 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:44,680 life easy because you could then focus on the kind of people side 203 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:47,000 of project management, which is really where people are adding 204 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,800 the value into into the day life. 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,320 I'm going to pin you down because what you said was really 206 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,840 interesting, but I'm sure it's much harder to achieve in daily 207 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,040 life then then you say it sounds brilliant, but what have been 208 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,960 the key lessons you've learnt about managing stakeholders and 209 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,160 also about our guest managing a project team? 210 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,120 What have you learned over the years that you'd do you wish 211 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,160 you'd known when you were starting out? 212 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Yeah, I think there's kind of the the needs that people have 213 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,720 in their role. So what do they need to do in 214 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,360 terms of their role and their accountability. 215 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,320 So what you're kind of what do you need to do as part of your 216 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:24,760 job? And then the needs that they 217 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,040 have as a person as well. So you might be communicating 218 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,760 with them slightly differently because of who they are as a 219 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,160 person or not because of the role. 220 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,880 So spending a bit of time and getting to know people really 221 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,240 does make life a lot easier, especially if you have to have 222 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,040 those awkward conversations later on when things go go off 223 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,520 track. So I always spend enough time at 224 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,840 the start getting to know people, building the trust, 225 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,040 getting the team to feel like they're a collection of people 226 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,040 who want to work together so that when things get tough later 227 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,400 on, it makes life a lot, lot easier. 228 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:54,960 Sorry, how do you actually do that? 229 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,240 Is it just like taking people out for a coffee or just like 230 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,160 having a chat around the office? I don't know how much time you 231 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,280 spend remote working because it is harder now that people aren't 232 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,720 in the office the whole time. So that face to face kind of 233 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,040 serendipitous conversations don't always happen. 234 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,240 Have you got any tips about how to do what you suggest? 235 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,080 Yeah, I think we've been trying because we all remote work. 236 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,000 So actually we don't have that face to face opportunity so 237 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,400 often. So people will be in the office 238 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,320 occasion a bit very rarely and the whole team in doing things 239 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,320 and then some people are working in different countries 240 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:28,760 contributing to the project as well. 241 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,880 So it's really hard to get that, that together. 242 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,520 So we've been trying different things over the time. 243 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,800 So trying to have good kick off meetings, trying to have 244 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,800 brainstorming sessions, have kind of regular updates, have 245 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,400 those kind of coffees and chats with people in kind of smaller 246 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,520 groups. And I guess kind of just try to 247 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,760 find a way to try and get it to work in a, in a remote 248 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,760 environment. Definitely haven't found all the 249 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,760 answers to all the questions. So yeah, it's always, always an 250 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,840 experiment on how to do things differently each time. 251 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,520 OK. Thanks Josie. 252 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,360 Anna, what what would you say the core kind of people related 253 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,600 project management skills that you need to have to be 254 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:06,800 successful in a job like yours? It's interesting because jobs 255 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,080 are so different, but what Josie mentioned about stakeholder 256 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,200 communicate and communication and stakeholder engagement is 257 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,760 exactly what I wanted to to bring. 258 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,960 I completely agree that stakeholder management is most 259 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,040 essential, I think in our sector, especially because you 260 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,000 just need to translate from one language to another. 261 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,040 I don't mean languages in a traditional convenient way, but 262 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,640 from creative language into languages which other 263 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,440 stakeholders would understand. Oh, OK. 264 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,840 So, yeah, so I understand. So it's like the so for example. 265 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,520 Yeah, as you say, the artists and the productions and all of 266 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,320 that language that surrounds that world. 267 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,840 And then you've got your world of getting stuff done through 268 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:53,680 projects. Yeah. 269 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,680 Yes, exactly. And I also think that you, you 270 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,240 need to adjust your tone and your message to who you speak 271 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,600 with because you will be speaking differently with 272 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,000 artists and with some financial institution, government 273 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,240 officials or I don't know, constructors, contractors, 274 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,960 vendors, and every, every group has its own priorities. 275 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,520 And that's why it's so important to bring the, bring them on onto 276 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,000 the same page, but keeping in mind that everyone has 277 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,400 different, different interests and you need to balance this and 278 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,000 balance their expectations as well. 279 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,680 And yes, communication, as I said, adjusting your message so 280 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,080 that you are completely sure that everyone understands, 281 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,680 really understands and not only lists, but he understands what 282 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,360 you mean and what you want from them, especially 283 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,600 internationally. We could even talk about, you 284 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,040 know, keeping in mind that you work with different time zones. 285 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,920 And if you send your message in the evening, someone might get 286 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,600 it at 5:00 AM in the morning and get very upset because we never 287 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,440 switch off our phones, for example. 288 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,320 But this is a, this is just an example. 289 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,720 And I think another important core skill is risk management, 290 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,640 which I would also put here because we operate with life 291 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,160 events mostly. And in life events you don't 292 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,000 really have, you cannot postpone it. 293 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,120 You almost never can, you know, delay our premiere. 294 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,320 Of course you can, but it will be something extraordinary. 295 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,760 So normally you operate in real, real time. 296 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:41,560 And so risk management is are something absolutely crucial 297 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,120 because you will not have the second chance to redo something 298 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,880 and the more things you are able to anticipate and mitigate, the 299 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,600 better the outcome will be. Josie, is there, is that 300 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,120 something? I saw you nodding your head. 301 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,600 Then it's risk obviously a kind of big factor you need to manage 302 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,680 as well. Yeah, definitely. 303 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,760 So I think risks and assumptions actually are kind of 22 areas 304 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,319 that I'd say are really important. 305 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:09,599 So I think, as Anna said, kind of thinking about what risk 306 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,040 could happen and actually thinking in advance what you're 307 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,440 going to do when they go wrong. So when you're in the panic when 308 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,000 it goes wrong, you've kind of already got some strategies in 309 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,319 place that you might bring into play. 310 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,880 Although I've never found any of the risks because I've actually 311 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,760 played out how I've thought they're going to play out. 312 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,720 But at least it kind of gives you a bit of a starting point to 313 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,640 not be in too much of a kind of crazy state with things. 314 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,640 And then the assumptions. I think one of the big lessons 315 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,000 that we've learnt in our kind of R&D type projects is make sure 316 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,520 you challenge those really early on, try and get the team to to 317 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,760 kind of feel comfortable saying what are they assuming and what 318 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,960 you just assumed is going to be happening in the project because 319 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,000 they're quite often the bits. Sorry, just could you give an 320 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,120 example to bring that to life? Yeah. 321 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:52,480 So I think we people would make assumptions on how easy things 322 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,120 are. So we'd quite often have our 323 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,600 product managers, we'll be the ones that are representing their 324 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,880 their customers and they'll be like, oh, we'd like this new 325 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,680 product to do this thing. And everyone just assumes it's 326 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,080 going to be really easy. And then the technical team 327 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,000 start looking into it and they'll say, actually, this is a 328 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,320 lot more harder than than we think. 329 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,640 It's going to be something that you thought was going to be two 330 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,320 months is going to take us two years. 331 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,120 And if people don't feel comfortable kind of saying, 332 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:18,640 actually, I don't really agree with the, the sort of the, the 333 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,120 inputs that you're giving us, then you get into a lot of pain 334 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,480 later on because you start your project saying it's going to 335 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,920 take two months and it's still going to take you 2 years. 336 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,920 But no one ever brings it up at the start. 337 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,520 That's really interesting point because that's sort of taps into 338 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,760 sort of optimism bias and that we are naturally more optimistic 339 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,480 about how much we can achieve and how quickly we can do it. 340 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,120 I was interested to pick up on something you just said around 341 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,840 people being able to speak up about these things. 342 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,120 So to kind of mitigate risk, I, I guess it's about 343 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:55,360 understanding, curious, possible what, what's going on and what 344 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,200 could present itself as a, as a problem. 345 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,840 And then if anything happens, knowing that people feel OK 346 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,640 about raising it. So have you got any advice to 347 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,720 people who the project managers or project leaders who want to 348 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,600 ensure, I guess it's a culture, a project team culture where 349 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,760 people feel empowered to do that? 350 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,320 Is there anything you've learnt or that you any advice you pass 351 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,360 on? So actually one of the programme 352 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:23,040 managers in my team, someone called Lucy, who it was great at 353 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,480 doing this. She was really good at kind of 354 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,680 bringing people together in a, in a safe space. 355 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,840 And she put a lot of time and energy into developing those 356 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,480 personal relationships with with people so that she could kind of 357 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,760 tell if they were not feeling comfortable. 358 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,600 And if they didn't bring it up during the session, she'd then 359 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,800 go and have a conversation afterwards and say, I can see 360 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,120 you were feeling a bit uneasy with that. 361 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:42,880 Do you want to tell me a bit more about it? 362 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,760 And then she would be their voice for them as well. 363 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,320 We deal with quite a lot of technical people as well. 364 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,080 So I guess stereotypically a bit more introverted than some other 365 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,400 people maybe. So found some of the online 366 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,080 tools that you can use. So online whiteboards are great 367 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,400 where people can just put post it notes up and don't have to 368 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,560 say anything. They can just put a post it note 369 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,360 with what they're worried about and then someone will take it 370 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:06,720 seriously and do something about it. 371 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,280 That's a great piece of advice. I haven't heard that before. 372 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,240 That's interesting. Can I ask you about the language 373 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,080 you use as well? So I mean, you do have a, a kind 374 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,960 of technical background. So I'm, I'm assuming you can 375 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,160 understand a lot of, of the kind of technical aspects of the 376 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,440 work, but no project manager can be expected to be an expert on, 377 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,040 on everything that's going on with the projects. 378 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,880 Have you what's what are your thoughts on the language of 379 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,920 project management and not necessarily being a kind of 380 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,800 subject expert and everything? Yeah, I think that's something 381 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,560 that I've seen kind of quite challenging for some of our 382 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,800 project managers in the team, because most of them have 383 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,440 actually come in from a technical background. 384 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,760 So quite often they've done them, they've done the work 385 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,560 before, They then manage the projects. 386 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:53,400 And so trying to keep them out of the details is quite often 387 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,560 the big, big challenge because they understand the language too 388 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,000 much when people are talking about it. 389 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,920 And so trying to get them to understand that they're not the 390 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,160 technical expert, there's other people who are playing that role 391 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,400 and they need to just be great at project management. 392 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,040 So kind of really focus on the planning, the risks, the 393 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,600 communications, and make sure they keep the team alive so they 394 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,160 can keep their technical experts free to focus on actually 395 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,680 getting the work done and doing what they're best at as well. 396 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,680 So I've actually tried breaking some of those kind of barriers 397 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,760 down by putting people into projects where they're, they're 398 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,640 not an expert in in the area. So actually all of a sudden 399 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,400 they're having to deal with project teams where they're 400 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,160 talking a different technical language. 401 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,320 Two things. So all of a sudden you're out of 402 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,720 your comfort zone. And so all you're doing is then 403 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,000 relying on your project management skills to get to get 404 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,240 things done. Are they happy about that or 405 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,920 that that must be quite a big shock to the system and then 406 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,960 figuring out how you go go forward with it. 407 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,320 Yes, I think we kind of set up a bit of a community within the 408 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,040 project managers so people could kind of share their experiences. 409 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,000 And if they were having some challenges, they could come 410 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,040 together and ask for a bit of advice and have kind of some 411 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,640 sessions together to talk about how they've dealt with different 412 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,640 problems in in the past as well. Particularly as we started 413 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,560 getting more involved in projects that did a lot more 414 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,560 software development. A lot of the project managers 415 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,120 come from quite a traditional project management background. 416 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,760 And then software engineers really want to work in a really 417 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,320 agile way. So blending those two worlds to 418 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,520 do what you needed to do to make sure you're predictably 419 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,440 delivering, but giving people the flexibility to work with 420 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,400 agility was quite a challenge. Any any lessons you learnt from 421 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,840 that about how to get that right? 422 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,520 So that was all about language and actually trying to get 423 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,520 people to stop fixating on the words that were being used and 424 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,160 try and understand the spirit of the conversation and understand 425 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,800 that all everyone wanted was to get get the work done, get the 426 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,120 work done well and get a product out to the customers. 427 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,040 So, yeah, we had a lot of time where people would get really 428 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,520 fixated on particular terms and it just kind of completely 429 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,880 blocked the activity that was going on. 430 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,120 So even using the word project became something that we kind of 431 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,760 had to shy away from. So we were doing lots of 432 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,240 initiatives for a while. Initiatives, I like that. 433 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,400 Are there any, Anna, are there any other core kind of project 434 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,600 management skills that that you really need to be successful 435 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,800 that in order to deliver a project well? 436 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,480 Yes, I of course, I think main would be you need to exceptional 437 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,680 scheduling skills and time management because it's, it is a 438 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:27,400 high, high paced, very intense environment with a lot of things 439 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,720 being on fire constantly and also you're constantly managing 440 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,840 creative chaos. If I, if I may, because artists 441 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,240 they don't necessarily, not necessarily they, they, they do 442 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,600 not operate in business terms. They, they are led by 443 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,240 inspiration. So you cannot feed them within 444 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,320 normal timelines and deadlines, although you have because you 445 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:58,760 are bridging them and reality. So I think you, you are the one 446 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,400 who is the main stabilising force and you need this 447 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:09,480 exceptional scheduling techniques, time management and 448 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,800 you need to optimise constantly and streamline everything, 449 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:19,440 communication, all the processes so that you move faster and the 450 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,560 more efficient, as efficient as you can, but at the same time 451 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:29,720 never at the expense of artists trust and artistic integrity and 452 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:35,440 quality of the final product. So I think this is the most 453 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,720 essential thing. JC What are the biggest kind of 454 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,840 project management challenges that you face in your in your 455 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,480 work? I think it's kind of interesting 456 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,400 kind of Anna talking about working with the people she does 457 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,280 with kind of being creative because actually lots of people 458 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,520 who are in R&D roles are creative, but obviously in a in 459 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,000 a slightly different way. So being able to find that 460 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,800 balance between long term innovation where people just 461 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,040 want to go and explore, don't want to be bound by any kind of 462 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,840 timelines or constraints. And they're being able to bring, 463 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,640 bring that in and rein that in when actually you need to start 464 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,240 thinking about when you're going to be delivering is a real 465 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,440 challenge. I think for for the project 466 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,800 managers. And I think being able to deal 467 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,280 with that kind of ambiguity and uncertainty that kind of starts 468 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,120 off with with some of the technical projects is is really 469 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:24,320 challenging. And I remember having a 470 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,680 conversation with someone in my team where they were just 471 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,560 telling me how I just couldn't possibly understand. 472 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,240 They couldn't be bound by by any time they just needed to, to go 473 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,040 off into the lab and explore. And how dare I ask them like 474 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,200 milestones and all of this for the plans. 475 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,480 And I was like, well, just tell me by this date if you can do it 476 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,240 or not. And you have to sort of balance 477 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,560 things in that way. And does that work for you? 478 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,680 So kind of being open to accommodate their needs and 479 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,200 their way of thinking, is that how you would approach it? 480 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,560 Yeah, I think it's, it's kind of recognising where you are in a 481 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,920 project and what what the kind of levy you need to be pulling 482 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,160 at one time. So there are those bits that the 483 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,800 kind of the fuzzy front end when people are trying to work out 484 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,240 how to how to get stuff done, where you need to give people 485 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,680 the opportunity to to go and explore but not get stuck down 486 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,680 any rabbit holes. And so I think it's a real skill 487 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,520 to kind of open, open things out and then get people to close 488 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,880 things down to start saying actually now this is what we're 489 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,280 actually going to be doing. And then at some point you need 490 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,040 to say, actually, you've been now going into delivery mode. 491 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,480 So we need to now start thinking about making those commitments, 492 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,280 hitting those timelines and actually getting things done 493 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,560 when we said we were going to get them done. 494 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,160 I'd like to ask both of you what are the most important lessons 495 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,080 you've learned around delivering successful projects? 496 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,440 Anna, what have you, If you could pass on one piece of 497 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,720 advice about how to deliver a project successfully in in the 498 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,840 broadest sense, what would you say? 499 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:58,080 My main thing is no assumptions, never assume anything and verify 500 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,480 verify everything and I learned it hard way. 501 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,320 How do you mean? That sounds interesting. 502 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,480 Can you give us this so I, I mean that we have this proverb 503 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,160 in my mother tongue. Trust but verify and it's, and 504 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,760 it's not really about it's not that I, I don't trust people, 505 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,680 but I am the one who is responsible for the final 506 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,080 results. So if if someone tells me that 507 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,120 they've done it million times or if something has worked for many 508 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:31,560 years, I would still check it. I would check all the 509 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,560 dependencies, I would check all the technical specifications. 510 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,720 I would ask millions of questions. 511 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,160 And sometimes people don't really like it. 512 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,680 But again, I learned hard way that something might not work 513 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,160 when you least expect it. So, and I think that's that's 514 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,960 again because because we deal with life events and if it 515 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,720 doesn't work in real time on stage there, there is no way to 516 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:03,000 to redo it. That's why it is so important. 517 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,120 So yeah, I think, I think that's that would be it. 518 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,120 Yeah. And what about EJC? 519 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,080 Any key kind of project management lessons you've picked 520 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,040 up? I think it's understanding kind 521 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,160 of the role accountabilities that go with things. 522 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,840 So actually I'm going to probably say the opposite to 523 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,720 Anna. And probably because we're in a 524 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,200 an environment where actually things can go wrong and you've 525 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,040 got time to to do something about them is I think 526 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,240 challenging those assumptions is really important, but also 527 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,760 making sure people feel accountable for their part of 528 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,480 the project management jigsaw as well, so. 529 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,120 How do you do that? How do you actually make that 530 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,200 happen in practise? So we, we spent a lot of time 531 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,880 actually defining kind of some key roles and kind of rolling 532 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,360 those out across the project. So we created the concept of a 533 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,080 project leadership team where there were kind of key, key 534 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,400 roles that people would be stepping into in addition to 535 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,560 them actually doing some of the work as well. 536 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,160 So you may be the technical lead on the project, which means 537 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720 you'd have certain accountabilities that would 538 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,560 would go alongside it. So we tried to make it really 539 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,280 clear what that meant and what was expected from you. 540 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,080 And then also working with kind of the people managers, so the 541 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,440 team leaders to make sure they were on understanding that they 542 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,240 were accountable for delivering the tasks and making sure the 543 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,880 task got done so that all the projects could come together 544 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,160 because there were lots of different streams all happening 545 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,360 at the same time. OK, thank you. 546 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,640 What about you, Anna? Any any key other key project 547 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,680 management lessons you'd pass on? 548 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,120 I, I would still talk about building relationships because I 549 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,960 think it's so, so important. It's not about, it's not 550 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,040 communication, it's not soft skill in, in this industry. 551 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,120 I think it's an infrastructure you work in and it's, it's so 552 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,920 important and you never know when you will need this 553 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,320 particular person again. And the more, the more your 554 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,600 network is the better. And it's in a way building these 555 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,600 relationships is risk mitigation. 556 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,760 And I just wanted to follow up on all what Josie said about 557 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,960 responsibility and accountability. 558 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,880 I think the, the main difference here is that creative talents 559 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,040 they are accountable for create for creative outcome. 560 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,800 They don't need, they are brilliant in a different way. 561 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,320 They don't need to think about all these sort of things, risks, 562 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:29,240 schedules, because they need to have this mental space to create 563 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,280 beautiful pieces of art. And that's why you as a project 564 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,240 manager and maybe technical director as well, that's who are 565 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,560 responsible for, for the final outcome in terms of that, 566 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,360 everything runs smoothly. But you cannot, it's 567 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,360 responsibility onto, onto creative people because it's not 568 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,600 really their responsibility. At the same time, you don't 569 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,280 control, they don't, they're not involved in what you control, 570 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,400 but you don't control creative talent as well. 571 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,160 And you this is another specific. 572 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,480 You don't control the creative outcome in this project. 573 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,600 It's really interesting out of on that one because I think a 574 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,200 lot of the time that we spend in our project teams is trying to 575 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,840 make the team feel like they're A-Team. 576 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,200 So actually people would be talking to people about risks 577 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:16,880 all the time. And so I'm wondering whether 578 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,040 that's taking up a lot of mental capacity for some of the 579 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,320 technical experts who should be thinking about other things when 580 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,280 actually we're asking them to think about all these risks that 581 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,280 might not happen. So yeah, might take that one 582 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,360 back into the team. OK, that's good to hear. 583 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,520 Is part of what you need to do it is, is it to sell the 584 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,720 benefits of project management? Because there are project 585 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,240 managers who, I mean, you set up a programme office, Josie, in a 586 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,360 place that never had one. And I've spoken to other people 587 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,600 where they've had to formalise project management within the 588 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,320 organisation. And often they can be met with 589 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,120 some scepticism or hostility because you're seeing it as 590 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,560 people who might complicate things or get people involved in 591 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,280 horrendous Gantt charts. When in fact, what the people 592 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,880 I've, I've I've spoken to have been successful are the ones who 593 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,840 just say I'm going to make your life easier. 594 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,280 You don't need to worry about these things. 595 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,560 So these are the benefits I'll give you as as project manager. 596 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,880 Is that something that you've needed to do or thought about? 597 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,560 Yeah, definitely found when the programme management office 598 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,560 initially got created, there was quite a lot of resistance to it. 599 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,600 And all the things you've just said is they heard the term 600 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,520 project management and assumed that was going to be more admin, 601 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,200 more hoops they had to jump through, through more process 602 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,000 that was going to get implemented. 603 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,920 And so to try and overcome that, we kind of really focused on 604 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,680 having just enough process and kind of being a little bit 605 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,440 sneaky about bringing some processes in. 606 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,360 So the project managers will be getting data from the project 607 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,760 teams without sitting them down in front of a big Gantt chart or 608 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,560 massive Excel spreadsheet. So they'd kind of go and try and 609 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,440 collect the data secretly rather than have these big meetings 610 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,080 where you'd be going through all of those those things. 611 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,760 And we were definitely trying to sell it on the volume what good 612 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,040 project management brings. So if you can get the project 613 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,680 managers doing their job so what's asked of them, you can 614 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,080 actually start seeing that delivery starts going up. 615 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,480 Conversations that needed to happen early on start to happen 616 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,440 early on, and then stress is reduced for like the whole team. 617 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,880 So kind of found after a few runs of a few projects, people 618 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,960 started getting on board with it pretty quickly because I saw it 619 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,840 actually made their life easier. And we actually even got to the 620 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,120 point where people started asking for project managers to 621 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,400 start getting involved in projects because they saw it as 622 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,720 someone who was helping those wheels keep on turning. 623 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,840 That was made you very happy to have that it. 624 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,800 Was, but then you start having conversations about where does, 625 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,400 where is a project manager needed? 626 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,440 And it's project managers are not task managers. 627 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,320 And so if you're just doing some tasks, then people can just get 628 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,880 on and do that themselves. So trying to say the project 629 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,920 managers value is when you've got these very kind of complex 630 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,720 projects where multiple things are coming together across 631 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,960 different functions and that will need to happen at the same 632 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,600 time. It's not just about kind of 633 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,320 managing someone's day-to-day tasks. 634 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,920 And so that kind of ties into kind of scope creep because that 635 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,160 that's a common problem as well. Have you got any advice about 636 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,320 how to manage that? Is it just being very upfront 637 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,000 about what you can and cannot help with? 638 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,159 Yeah, I think it's definitely saying this is, this is what we 639 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:18,320 think the role is and this is what we're going to be be doing. 640 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,600 And then if someone asks something to be done that's not 641 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,239 as part of that being very transparent about about I'm not 642 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,840 doing it. I always have conversations with 643 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,600 the project managers that it's better to have an awkward 644 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,239 conversation early. So if someone says I'd like you 645 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,040 to do this thing and you don't think you should be doing it, 646 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,199 have that awkward conversation early because it's going to be a 647 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,719 horrible conversation later on when someone's assumed that 648 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,199 you've been doing all the stuff for them that you haven't 649 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,600 actually been doing. Yeah, that's that's a good 650 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,040 point. Anna, was there anything you 651 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,560 wanted to? Add Yeah, I actually wanted to 652 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,600 add about this scope creep because I think this is another 653 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,520 quite challenging but a different thing to talk about. 654 00:34:54,520 --> 00:35:00,360 So when somebody, I mean, create creative, your creative talent 655 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,000 brings you an absolutely brilliant idea, you know, two 656 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,680 weeks before the before the show and everything is already 657 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,640 settled budget, you don't have time, but you just simply cannot 658 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,400 say no because you understand that it might elevate the whole 659 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,760 performance. And that's how inspiration 660 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,000 works. So I think it, it is essential 661 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,160 in, in, in my role that I find the way to do that. 662 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:33,000 It's not, it's not always easy, but scope is very much fluid in 663 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,360 creative arts and I think I always just keep it in mind. 664 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,760 So probably I have some contingency plans for that and 665 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,720 and I might reduce something else and I, I might fight find 666 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:50,040 the ways to make it work and I need to balance it with the time 667 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,680 constraints and budget constraints. 668 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,800 So I would probably reduce how much something else costs, you 669 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,720 know, manufacturing or I, I would probably cut some, some 670 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,640 other pieces entirely. But I will be able to fit this 671 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:11,440 new idea into into my schedule and into my budget if we all 672 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,640 understand that this is really important. 673 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,000 JC I'm particularly interested in asking you about any career 674 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,080 advice because you're a kind of project manager, programme 675 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,280 manager. He's moved into a broader 676 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,240 business role as as part of the senior leadership team. 677 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:31,800 And this is really an ambition for the profession that project 678 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,560 management as a career can really set you up to be 679 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,880 successful in a broader business capacity and, and at a higher 680 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,240 level. So 2 questions really. 681 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,200 What advantages has a career in project management brought to 682 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,440 you and how have you managed to step up into a kind of broader 683 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,560 business role? And any advice? 684 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,640 That's three questions, sorry. And any advice you'd you'd pass 685 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,320 on to people who have the ambition to do that too? 686 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,160 Yes, I think the nice thing about rojects is you see how 687 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,800 different bits of the business work and how different bits of 688 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,840 the businesses work together and how it starts to fit. 689 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,160 And then because you're working with different people in 690 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,880 different areas, you start understanding how to manage 691 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,520 those different stakeholders who who've got those different 692 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,520 needs. So I think learning how to set 693 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,800 that clear direction, which is what you're doing in in your 694 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,800 projects, how you start kind of bridging any of those silos that 695 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,040 always exist within any big organisation. 696 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,000 And then start building that environment where people 697 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,320 actually really enjoy being part of the project team and they 698 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,520 feel confident and supported. I think has really set me up for 699 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,440 the leadership roles that I've been moving around with within 700 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,480 the the organisation. So really kind of learning how 701 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,080 to lead disparate teams that don't directly report to you so 702 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,920 that they can pull together around a common goal is really 703 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,120 key. So you've got that kind of broad 704 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,800 perspective, but what what are those new skills you need to 705 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,720 develop or understand that you need to attain in order to move 706 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:59,240 into a broader business role? And I think I've spent quite a 707 00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,120 lot of effort personally kind of building my network within in 708 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,040 the organisation and getting people to see the the kind of 709 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,360 things I'm good at doing. So putting kind of my skill set 710 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,560 forward. I'm someone who really likes 711 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,880 creating structure within organisations and when sort of a 712 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,680 transformation needs to happen, that's where I really enjoy sort 713 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,400 of spending my time. So getting people to see how I 714 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,560 think, how I do things, how I execute on project activities 715 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,280 has been really important as as part of kind of moving up and 716 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,960 moving in in the room. And then over the past couple of 717 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,440 years, I've always taken the mantra kind of just say yes when 718 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,120 an opportunity arises. So even if it seems really 719 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,240 daunting, just kind of step into it and embrace it. 720 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,600 And nothing has gone Touchwood terribly wrong for me so far. 721 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,480 So the role I'm in now, I don't have any commercial experience. 722 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,280 It's a bit of the business that I don't understand but really 723 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,200 keen to learn and really keen to expand and grow my skills and 724 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,400 knowledge of how things work. Joe Well, that's really 725 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,080 interesting you say, because it's International Women's Day 726 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,280 this week and you're both great role models of women who are 727 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,200 successfully in project management in very different 728 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,760 sectors. But JC, what you were just 729 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,640 saying then about saying yes. So I know this, there's been 730 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,080 research done about women and more reluctant to say yes to 731 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,000 opportunities that they're not sure about, whereas men can be 732 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,800 overconfident and just jump in and, and do it. 733 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,760 I mean, not sure I'll ask, I'll ask both of you how, how 734 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,520 important is it to celebrate International Women's Day? 735 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,600 But also how important is, is it to acknowledge the, that you are 736 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,160 a female in, in this environment? 737 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,400 And it has that been anything that's been beneficial, 738 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,880 disadvantageous to, to either of you? 739 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,440 And any advice to, to women who want to get ahead in the sectors 740 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,240 you work in? So again, I'm sorry, that's like 741 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,320 3 questions in one, but I don't know who'd like to go first. 742 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,320 I'm happy to go first. I think yes, in a natural it is 743 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,600 very important to celebrate it and but not as a symbolic 744 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,480 gesture. I think it's just another, 745 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,080 another opportunity to raise awareness about about this 746 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,240 because we still have this still have this representation 747 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,200 problem. And the more visible we make it, 748 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,880 the more we talk about this, I think the better. 749 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,720 But at the same time. The real work of course happens 750 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:33,160 during the rest of the year of 364 Days and when I joined Whip 751 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:38,640 Them, I think I was just so inspired by examples of women 752 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,880 from different industries leading great projects, thinking 753 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,800 strategically and supporting each other and learning from 754 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,720 each other and sharing experience so that I just 755 00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:57,520 realise how important it is to to feel supported. 756 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,840 And it's not. Sometimes it's not even about 757 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,760 opportunities, but it's about being able to share your 758 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:09,800 concerns and some problems that you might have on the way. 759 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,920 Something like APM draws people from so many different sectors 760 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,920 and backgrounds. Often you you can face similar 761 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,920 problems, but people have found different ways of tackling them 762 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,320 which would never have you never have thought about. 763 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,280 It's just because they come with very different perspective on on 764 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,200 things. Yeah, I agree. 765 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,640 I think even the conference that APM and Whipam holds every, 766 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,200 every March, I think it's on the 6th of March this year. 767 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,840 I attended the IT last year and it was absolutely amazing how 768 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,720 many women come there from completely different sectors. 769 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:54,200 But we see that the problems we are facing are they are pretty 770 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,640 much the same and it's so important to share, to network 771 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,000 and to say it out loud what you are dealing with and find 772 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:03,920 support. OK. 773 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:04,840 Thanks. Josie. 774 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,920 What would you like to add? Yeah, I, I agree that I think 775 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,400 it's really nice to have kind of International Women's Day to 776 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,120 kind of give that visibility to people. 777 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,880 So to kind of really put those role models into the spotlight 778 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,520 so that people can see that there are people who were kind 779 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,960 of really pushing, pushing the boundaries and kind of driving 780 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,920 change and challenging the status quo. 781 00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:26,360 But also agree with Anna that it does need to be that kind of all 782 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,120 year round activity. So not just action on, on, on 783 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,880 that one day. And also agree with Anna around 784 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,960 the work that Wickham does to kind of really kind of women in 785 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,600 the spotlight in in project management. 786 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,080 I think it's really important to to have that consistent message 787 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,600 that's that's coming out. But I think International 788 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,800 Women's Day is great to actually have that kind of official day 789 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,560 where you can put the spotlight really brightly on people. 790 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,040 OK, thanks. Finally, I wanted to ask you 791 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,680 about the future of project management. 792 00:42:54,720 --> 00:43:01,120 So do you, do you kind of more personally, do you visit a 793 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,800 future where project management does become even more 794 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,640 transferable so that you, you would feel happy about jumping 795 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,640 into a completely different sector? 796 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,680 I think that's can be challenging to people. 797 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,640 And I think that that perhaps is going to be the future of 798 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,880 project management because it's a desperate kind of skills 799 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,280 shortage for kind of project managers in every field. 800 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,920 But just your it might be nice just to wrap up by asking you 801 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,360 what what what you think the future holds and do you think 802 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,520 that you would ever jump into a completely different sector? 803 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,440 Yeah, So I think, I think for me, so I've done some talks 804 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,280 previously about how being a scientist sets you up really 805 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,480 well for a kind of a career in in project management and how 806 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,680 all the things I learned when I was training as a chemist 807 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,720 basically set you up to do project management. 808 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,800 I can see doing other talks now about how coming from a project 809 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,240 management background really sets you up for senior 810 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:58,080 leadership positions as well. So you can see how all of those 811 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,440 skills and people management and all of that really helps, helps 812 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,840 with things. What I've kind of been seeing in 813 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,520 our company is we're doing lots of change. 814 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,600 We've got lots of change we need to make in the organisation to, 815 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,760 to really drive growth and sell, sell more kind of products to 816 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,480 our to our customers. And I think project management's 817 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,400 really key for that because when you're actually trying to do 818 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,920 something different and bringing together cross functional groups 819 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,120 of people that don't always work together is really important to 820 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,720 kind of overcome those real traditional hierarchical 821 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:30,560 functional structures that often exist. 822 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,880 And so I think if you want to deliver things more efficiently, 823 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,760 more predictably and doing things a bit quicker as well, I 824 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,440 think having projects and project management really is key 825 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,120 to doing that. But I can also see the role of 826 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,280 project managers changing quite a lot as well. 827 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,880 So a lot and more with all the kind of AI and all the kind of 828 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,760 automations that are coming through, you can see that a lot 829 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,480 of the admin tasks that people traditionally associate with 830 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,800 project management becoming a lot more automated. 831 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,760 And so project managers then need to start focusing on the 832 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,480 more human side of project management. 833 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,040 And we've talked about that quite a lot today already. 834 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,680 So pulling people together, keeping them motivated and 835 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,120 making sure kind of stay focused on delivering those outcomes 836 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,680 will become the kind of the key to success for a really strong 837 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,320 project manager. JC that's amazing. 838 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,320 I it's almost as though I put the words I wanted to convey 839 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,000 into your house. That's fantastic. 840 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,040 Thank you. Anna. 841 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,120 What? What would you like to say? 842 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,920 Yeah, I completely agree with Josie because we're leaving such 843 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,200 uncertain times and not only with the, you know, technology 844 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,560 transforming and AI and everything Josie mentioned, but 845 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,680 also geopolitical. You, you basically you never 846 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,640 know what, what will be tomorrow. 847 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:46,560 So the, the period of time you can plan ahead getting shorter 848 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,520 and shorter, I guess. So it's just natural that 849 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,480 organisations are trying to build teams around very specific 850 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,320 goals rather than this heavy structures which are hardly 851 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,800 being moved. And I do also agree that all 852 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,680 that can be done by AI will be done by AI in terms of 853 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,440 reporting, tracking, all the scheduling and planning. 854 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,600 So all these technical skills I think will become less 855 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:21,120 important. What is still very much 856 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:26,000 important and to what AI cannot do yet, I hope will not be able 857 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,960 to do is the human connection and all the communication 858 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:38,960 strategies and ability to bring all the people together, find 859 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,800 the common ground and leadership. 860 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,840 Being able to lead people. But towards 1 common goal I I 861 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,520 think will be even more and more important. 862 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,640 So everything related to human connections are are that that's 863 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,320 where the future is. Thanks, Hannah. 864 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,840 That's a kind of nice upbeat way to end this. 865 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,080 And I just wanted to thank both of you so much for your advice 866 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,840 and insight into both of you. Well, so thanks very much. 867 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,040 Thank you. Thank you. 868 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,400 So that just leaves me to thank Josie and Anna for joining us 869 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,880 and to you for listening to the APM podcast. 870 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,200 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rating 871 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,080 reviews wherever you get your podcasts. 872 00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:23,960 We welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback, 873 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,120 and suggestions by emailing us at 874 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:31,880 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify users, please do also 875 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,520 leave us your comments. This podcast has been brought to 876 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,760 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 877 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,560 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.