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Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the childhood body for 

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the project profession. 
My name is Emma Devita, and I'm 

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the editor of Project APM's 
quarterly journal and your host.

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In this podcast, we're giving 
you the cheats guide to the 8th 

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edition of APM's Body of 
Knowledge, courtesy of its 

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Managing editor, Mike Bourne, 
Professor of Business 

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Performance at Cranfield 
University, where he leads the 

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project Leadership programme for
senior civil servants. 

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He's also director for the 
Centre for Business Performance 

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there. 
Mike tells me a lot has changed 

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in the past five years since the
previous edition of the APM Body

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of Knowledge was published, and 
we focus our conversation on 

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what makes for a great project 
professional in 2025. 

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How to get your head around 
systems thinking, how to 

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approach AI and what 
sustainability really means for 

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projects. 
If there's one takeaway from our

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discussion, it's about learning 
to have the bigger picture on 

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your projects and programmes. 
Listen on for Mike's invaluable 

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advice. 
Welcome Mike. 

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Thanks so much for finding the 
time to speak to us. 

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Really looking forward to 
forward to our conversation. 

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So what we would like to share 
with listeners is, is almost 

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like a cheats guide to the 8th 
edition of the Body of 

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Knowledge. 
It's been five years since the 

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previous edition. 
So I know from the feature in 

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the Spring 2025 issue of Project
that there were certain areas 

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that were of particular interest
for this edition, massive topics

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like AI, systems thinking, 
project leadership. 

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So for someone who doesn't have 
the time to read the 8th edition

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in full right now, what would 
you say are the main new points 

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that they should really be 
paying attention to? 

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I wouldn't read the 8th edition 
from cover to cover unless 

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you're reviving Exam or 
something like that. 

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It's really a reference guide. 
It's something to be dug into 

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when you've got a particular 
issue or problem or you need to 

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think about something in a bit 
of depth. 

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So what's new about this? 
We're really living in a vaca 

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world. 
It's volatile, it's uncertain, 

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it's complex and it's ambiguous 
and that makes project life more

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difficult than it ever used to 
be. 

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Projects typically in the past 
used to be quite linear. 

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You decide what to do, you 
decide how to do it, you do it 

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and wrap it all up. 
But currently, and especially 

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with complex projects, it's 
becoming much more non linear. 

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We've got turbulence in the 
world, we've got people 

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interfering with the project, 
we've got advancing 

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technologies. 
And so the project professionals

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got to live in that space and 
that's what it's about. 

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So as you said, yes, the new 
version does focus in on 

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leadership in particular. 
It's got sections on systems 

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thinking, it's got sections on 
sustainability, which are really

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important too. 
And we have a whole chapter on 

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AI that we added right at the 
end of this to keep everybody 

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interested and really to reflect
the growing importance of AI as 

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we go forwards. 
Thanks, Mike. 

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That's brilliant. 
Are there a couple of topics 

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that perhaps we could just dive 
into a bit now that you think 

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are really the ones that project
professionals need advice on or 

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need to be thinking about? 
I mean, I'm particularly 

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interested in project leadership
because to deal with such a 

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vodka environment, it's about 
the judgement that project 

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leaders have the ability to make
decisions and everything else 

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kind of feeds into that. 
You know, sustainability, AI 

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systems thinking, crikey, that's
a lot for a project leader to 

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get their heads around. 
Tell me, tell me what? 

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Yeah, tell me what what your 
views are on this. 

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Yes, project leadership, because
it's volatile, is extremely 

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important. 
It's much less now about 

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process. 
Process is really important to 

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run efficient projects and 
you've got to know where you are

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on what you're doing, etcetera, 
etcetera, etcetera. 

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But the role of the project 
leader is to focus on the 

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outcomes and benefits the 
project is there to deliver and 

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to also understand the 
stakeholder environment. 

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And those two things come 
together. 

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Stakeholders do move. 
Unfortunately, they have an 

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initial understanding of what 
they want at the beginning. 

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But invariably projects take a 
little time to deliver and so 

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stakeholders evolve as the 
project evolves. 

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And it's really important for 
the person leading the project 

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to understand this and hold it 
all together. 

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And then you've got the 
situation of if it's about 

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change, if it's about emergence,
it's about, it's really is, as 

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you said, about judgement. 
It's about understanding what 

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isn't isn't working. 
It's about understanding when 

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you need to revisit the the 
schedule or even when to reach 

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visit the whole purpose of the 
project because something's 

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happened that's blown it out of 
the water. 

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And leadership too, is about 
leading the team. 

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You've got to have a vision. 
And for me, the vision is the 

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kind of the North star, what 
you're trying to deliver, the 

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real outcome, the real benefits.
And that's the thing that guides

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the project, not the delivery of
the project itself. 

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And keeping the team focused on 
the ultimate outcome is is 

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critical. 
And doing that, the leader also 

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has the chance to develop those 
working on the project involved 

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in the project so that they 
learn from their experience and 

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their time on the project, and 
therefore can be better project 

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professionals, better project 
managers or better project 

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leaders into the future. 
I mean, this all sounds 

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wonderful, but I imagine it's 
kind of easier said than done. 

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Any advice to project leaders 
about how you reach this kind of

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Holy Grail of what, what what, 
what successful leaders? 

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What do they do right? 
For me, a project leader isn't 

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the project manager. 
And you've got to remember that 

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all those project management 
roles have still got to be done,

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but the project leader's job is 
to lead the project and to 

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delegate the project management 
role. 

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So the real takeaway for project
leader is to create the space to

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lead and not get bogged down 
into the detail of the project 

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delivery. 
And that's difficult because 

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you've still got to have a 
feeling for the project. 

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You've got to have a gut feel 
about how it's going, what's 

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going right and what's not. 
But that space to interact with 

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stakeholders, to interact with 
people in the project, to think 

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about the project and just 
reflect on what's going on is 

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critical. 
And delegating stuff to make 

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that space is how you do it. 
The art of delegation, which can

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be hard, can't it? 
For people to let go and know 

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that the skills that got you so 
far aren't the skills that you 

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need to take you further. 
Yeah, the worst project leader, 

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he's probably the best project 
manager because they, they're, 

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they're still reassuring the the
skills that they had before. 

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You do have to let go. 
And, and that's why I talked 

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about developing people during 
the project, because you've got 

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to bring them up to, to be able 
to fulfil some of the roles that

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you're letting go with. 
And you've got to trust them. 

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You've got to understand that 
they're closer to what is going 

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on on the ground, and therefore 
they're making decisions based 

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on their local knowledge. 
As a leader, your job is to give

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them the context in which to 
make those decisions. 

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But you've got to let them make 
those decisions and sometimes 

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makes mistakes as well. 
But invariably, those mistakes 

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are no worse than the mistakes 
you'd make from a top of an 

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ivory tower, looking down and 
pretending you know what's going

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on. 
OK. 

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Thanks. 
Mike. 

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Were there any other topics? 
I know we briefly mentioned 

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systems thinking, sustainability
and AI, but I mean they're 

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they're huge. 
Was there any any of those that 

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you'd like to discuss a bit 
further? 

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Let me just talk briefly about 
systems thinking because it's 

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about whole systems thinking 
and, and it kind of goes with 

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the leadership too. 
It's about understanding if we 

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do this project in this way, 
what are the consequences 

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outside the project? 
What are the, you know, we've 

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got things we're trying to 
deliver, but what are the 

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unintended things that are going
to happen if we deliver it this 

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way? 
And so it's really important to 

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think about the project and the 
project delivery in the wider 

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system so that you can see what 
is going on and what impacts 

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you're having around the whole 
of the system, not just just in 

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the project. 
To ask an obvious question, but 

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why do you need to do that? 
Why is it beneficial to think 

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about the bigger picture? 
So does that directly link to 

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benefits and outcomes of the 
project or programme? 

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It directly links to benefits 
and outcomes actually, because 

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at the end of the day you can 
deliver a project that doesn't 

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deliver the benefits and 
outcomes. 

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So if you're delivering a 
project, part of the role of the

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leader is to understand how the 
project outputs deliver the 

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outcomes and the benefits to the
wider organisation or the 

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clients requires and that's what
it's about. 

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So having a whole systems view, 
understanding where the 

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stakeholders are coming from, 
whether they're for you or 

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against you, whether they're 
trying to help you, whether 

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they're trying to hinder you in 
that project delivery. 

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That's that's really important. 
And then just understanding how 

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the world moves too. 
And and also, you know some of 

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the consequences that that 
happened as your projects get to

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delivery and get passed over 
into operations. 

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My next question was what are 
the skills or knowledge that you

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need as a project professional 
to to really thrive in 2025 S? 

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Any advice on that, including 
getting getting your head around

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this this idea of much bigger 
picture thinking? 

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So what do project professionals
need to thrive in 2025? 

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That's a good question. 
Yeah. 

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I think you've got to understand
the bigger picture. 

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I think that's really important.
And systems thinking will help 

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you do that. 
But there are two other things I

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think that are really there. 1 
is about people. 

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You've got to understand people.
People are really important. 

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Those relationships with 
stakeholders, those 

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relationships with other 
projects, professionals within 

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your team and without it. 
And also your relationships with

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the people you're you're 
delivering the project to so 

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that they take it on board, 
implements and take the 

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benefits. 
So there's a great people side 

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of it. 
And then the other interesting 

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thing is this business of AI, 
which is artificial 

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intelligence, the use of data 
that's coming into projects in a

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big way. 
And, and that too is really 

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important. 
So we're starting to see some 

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kind of two quite conflicting 
views of the world coming 

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through projects. 
It's about people, but it's 

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about the technical side of of 
using AI and data as well. 

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And, and I think if a project 
professional can master both of 

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those, they're in a really good 
place. 

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Have you got any advice around 
the use of AI or experimenting 

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with AI or how to approach it? 
Because there's a fear that 

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there's a slight kind of panic 
around it and that you just need

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to be doing something. 
You'll be seen to be doing 

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something. 
But what's the smart way to be 

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thinking about this and and and 
and experimenting with it? 

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So AI is that, you know, is a, 
is a bit of a panacea at present

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or people think of it as that 
and it is and it isn't. 

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I think what we're going to get 
is some of the technical things 

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that happen in projects, You 
know, scheduling AI over time is

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going to help us do better 
schedules and more complete 

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schedules and things like that. 
Reporting AI over time is going 

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to start to pull the data 
together and recognise patterns 

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and start to report better and 
better. 

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And as it goes on, it's then 
going to start to prescribe 

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things that we should do. 
But from my perspective, the 

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decision really needs to stay 
with the, with the, the human 

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being, you know, is this 
prescription right? 

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Is this what we really should be
doing? 

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Has AI come to this conclusion 
based on, on data that we're 

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happy with, or are we being 
taken down a different route? 

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So the data sources for AI are 
really important. 

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And as you go on, it's also 
about you, you know, artificial 

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intelligence. 
It's, it's starting to learn and

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then you start to lose the 
transparency of where it's, 

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it's, it's coming from. 
And so you've always got to keep

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an eye over what it's 
prescribing, what it's thinking 

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about, what's what's coming out 
and are you comfortable with 

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that? 
What's the governance there? 

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And that's quite tricky. 
When you when you see it in 

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practise within other 
organisations or companies, are 

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there any behaviours or 
processes or practises that they

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that they do that means that 
they get the best from AI that 

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they that, that they've really 
taken the right approach? 

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So one really good example I saw
at the back end of last year was

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when one of the big banks and 
they had multiple AI projects 

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going on. 
And they started off with the 

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idea that they were going to 
experiment with AI because it 

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was going to be something that's
going to be there in the future.

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And they weren't going to 
justify each projects. 

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They were going to have a go. 
They were going to see what 

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happened and see what worked, 
but also see what didn't work. 

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So what they were doing 
basically was failing fast to 

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use a, you know, project 
expression. 

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They were kicking off projects. 
If they were looked to be 

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successful, they'd carry on. 
If they didn't, they stopped. 

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They learnt and they moved on 
again. 

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And it was this, this continuous
re updating the portfolio that 

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kept it going. 
They also didn't try to optimise

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everything right at the 
beginning. 

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They were really learning and 
trying to feel their way with AI

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and trying to encourage people 
to use it and then reflect on on

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the use. 
And I thought that was good 

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because it engaged people in 
thinking about AI and using AI, 

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but also kept people in control 
of it as it went along. 

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OK, thank you. 
I I immediately am thinking 

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about the culture of a project 
team to have that, I guess that 

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word everyone uses, that kind of
psychological safety or that 

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ability to fail, be allowed to 
fail, and to have that trust and

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transparency when it comes to 
project managing and managing 

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teams. 
Have you got any advice around 

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the most successful types of 
culture and how you in fact 

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create that? 
Project Culture a really big 

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topic. 
Isn't it? 

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I thought I'd ask you a trick. 
Well, this, this podcast for 

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the. 
Well, fair enough. 

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Fair enough if they have two or 
three podcasts there, but 

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project culture, what's you've 
got within a project, it's a 

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temporary organisation. 
It's almost the definition of 

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what a project is. 
So it's a great opportunity for 

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the project leader to actually 
decide the culture that they 

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want and then do their utmost to
build it. 

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And for me, the psychological 
safety around being able to 

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voice concerns, being able to 
challenge is absolutely critical

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to running successful projects. 
It's no good running a project 

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and then finding that you're 
failing because somebody hasn't 

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chipped in and said this doesn't
work and it's not going to work 

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and it's never going to work. 
And as a leader, you can't know 

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everything in your project. 
So you're reliant on your team 

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to keep you honest, to tell you 
what they're thinking. 

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And if you don't let them do 
that, you're, you're in real 

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trouble. 
So for me, that openness, that 

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willingness to admit that 
something's not working is, is 

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critical. 
So you've got to have that 

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psychological safety, but the 
leader has to have the 

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resilience to be able to cope 
with being challenged because 

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that's that's the critical bit. 
As a leader, you can't get 

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everything right, so why expect 
everybody working for you to get

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everything right too? 
And if you've got that kind of 

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attitude, that builds the kind 
of culture that I think you need

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to run a successful project. 
Some excellent words there, 

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Mike. 
Thank you. 

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There is one thing that I 
particularly want to talk about 

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as well is around sustainability
back in the news again with kind

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00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,200
of global developments on this 
side shifting thinking on it, 

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00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,200
where are we at? 
Could we be doing more and and 

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00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,320
what really is the role of the 
project manager, project 

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00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,960
professional when it comes to 
looking after the sustainability

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00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,800
side of things of a project? 
Yeah, well, there's one way of 

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00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,160
looking at the, the, the project
professional delivers the 

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00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,160
future. 
And so everything they're doing 

300
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,600
is delivering what's is going to
come next. 

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00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,800
So they've got a mammoth role 
in, in, in delivering 

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00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,280
sustainability. 
They should be challenging to 

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00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,200
start off with whether what 
they're going to deliver is 

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00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,600
going to be needed in the 
future. 

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00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,680
Because if, if, if they haven't 
got a sustainable solution, then

306
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,720
the project's going to deliver a
white elephant. 

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00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,480
This is no real, real future. 
So that's the first thing. 

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00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,040
But secondly, during the 
project, every stage of the 

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00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,880
project, they've got a chance to
think about, you know, if we put

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00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,480
a sustainability hat on, you 
know, can we reduce the carbon 

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00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,400
impact? 
Can we make sure that we're 

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00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,720
using resources effectively and 
efficiently? 

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00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,880
Can we manage the supply chain 
in a way so that they do develop

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00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,080
and deliver what we're really 
looking for? 

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00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:07,760
So project management probably 
has got, you know, a big 

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00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,760
percentage of, of, of 
sustainability for the future. 

317
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,880
Thank you, Mike. 
And talking of the future might 

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00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,280
be another five years. 
I don't know. 

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00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,240
You probably don't want to even 
think about the 9th edition of 

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00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,200
the body of knowledge. 
But what it's a bit another big 

321
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,520
question, but I'm asking you all
the big questions in this 

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00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,520
podcast. 
But what, what's the future 

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00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,800
direction of travel for project 
professionals? 

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00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,120
What, what do you think might be
coming up ahead over the next 

325
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:43,000
five years? 
And, and how can listeners 

326
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,120
prepare for that? 
What should they be thinking 

327
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:54,120
about right now? 
I think we've talked about, you 

328
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,360
know, volatile environment 
that's going to be more. 

329
00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:01,200
So I don't think the future is 
very certain. 

330
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,240
You know, there's some global 
things going on. 

331
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,920
That are affecting all of us and
the delivery of projects. 

332
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,800
Projects are getting much more 
international with developments 

333
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,200
all over the world. 
But it's against a a background 

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00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:25,280
of global uncertainty I think. 
I think the project 

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00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:32,080
professionals got a growing use 
of, of data and AI within the 

336
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,440
projects. 
So they've got to manage their 

337
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,440
skills to stay relevant. 
I think that's what it's really 

338
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,760
about. 
And so for the project 

339
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,080
professional, it's, it's about 
keeping across the developments 

340
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,120
that are happening, being 
comfortable with using the 

341
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:52,920
tools. 
And I think it's the AI is not 

342
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,160
going to replace the the project
manager or the project leader, 

343
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,360
but it is going to make their 
jobs, their roles very 

344
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,960
different. 
And I think a project profession

345
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320
in the future is going to have 
to be much more comfortable 

346
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,640
dealing with that and then 
dealing with their team and 

347
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,800
helping their team to use some 
of these news tools and 

348
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:18,120
techniques and deal with the 
uncertainty and everything else 

349
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:19,480
that the world's going to throw 
at us. 

350
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,600
So tall order, isn't it? 
I mean the words everyone uses 

351
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,440
is mindset. 
If you could sum up the best 

352
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,520
mindset to be able to be 
successful in the future as a 

353
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,120
project professional, but how 
might you describe that? 

354
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,080
They they, they need a bit of a 
global view. 

355
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,520
They do need a global view and 
just be aware of everything is 

356
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,760
going on. 
I think they need to have a 

357
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,280
mindset that the project is a 
small part of a much bigger 

358
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,800
system and and what they're 
delivering is going to impact 

359
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,920
that system. 
But the bigger system will 

360
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:07,520
continue and the projects can be
better or worser to hurt 

361
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,760
actually influencing the 
direction of that system by the 

362
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,920
way it's delivered and by the 
way it's run. 

363
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,760
So I think that's that's part of
a mindset. 

364
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:21,680
Project professionals or project
leaders have really got to be 

365
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,680
more big picture and project 
professionals have got to 

366
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,440
understand some of the 
intricacies of it, but not get 

367
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,240
totally swamped with the, the 
detail. 

368
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,640
I think that's, that's kind of a
mindset you need to have and 

369
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,280
judgement, you know, judgement 
is critical. 

370
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:50,320
It's it's gut feel. 
Is that something that is just 

371
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,560
within you, or something that 
can be worked on and cultivated?

372
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,480
I think judgement is partly 
within you, but you can greatly 

373
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:09,120
improve your use of judgement 
and part of it is being honest 

374
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,360
with yourself. 
If you've made a decision and 

375
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:15,720
you've got it wrong, first of 
all, you've got to recognise 

376
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,160
you've got it wrong. 
And then secondly, think about 

377
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,800
what happened and why you might 
have been blindsided or whatever

378
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,080
and, and did get it wrong and 
what could you do differently. 

379
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,920
So for me, judgement is about 
making decisions, recognising 

380
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,280
whether they're good decisions 
or not, but also learning from 

381
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,840
reflecting on those decisions 
and, and then creating better 

382
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,640
experience for yourself. 
So I, you know, I interviewed 

383
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:50,200
project leaders a while back and
I found a very young female 

384
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,800
project leader who got an 
immense amount of experience at 

385
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,760
the age of 26. 
And she'd done it because she 

386
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,760
thought about what she'd done 
and what had worked and what had

387
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,600
happened and what she'd learnt 
from it. 

388
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,320
And that reflection piece I 
think is is the best way for a 

389
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,600
project leader to to learn and 
develop their judgement and all 

390
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,440
their other skills. 
Really interesting. 

391
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,400
Thank you. 
I should really be wrapping 

392
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,280
things up. 
So my final question would be 

393
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,840
what would be the key takeaways 
of, well, things to think about 

394
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,240
that you've kind of come across 
in your work with the 8th 

395
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,480
edition? 
What? 

396
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,120
What are the things that 
listeners should perhaps start 

397
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:38,360
thinking about? 
I think we think of the body of 

398
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,720
knowledge as a Bible in some 
sense. 

399
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,120
It's got all the terms, the the 
the techniques and everything. 

400
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,840
And I think it's useful for 
people to understand that 

401
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,680
they're there, but also 
understand where they are and 

402
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,800
aren't appropriate in their use.
And then be open to 

403
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,880
understanding and learning all 
the time. 

404
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,000
If you become a chartered 
project professional and pass 

405
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,160
the exam, that's the beginning 
of your career, not the end of 

406
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,200
it. 
You need to keep learning, you 

407
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,320
need to keep developing your 
skills. 

408
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,200
And when the 9th edition comes 
along, it won't be a surprise if

409
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,040
there's something new in that as
well that you need to keep up to

410
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,040
date with. 
But if you've kept up to date, 

411
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,840
you probably know about it 
already, and it'll just be a 

412
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,800
reminder of a set of terms and 
conditions that you you you 

413
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,000
should keep at the back of your 
head. 

414
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,240
Thanks, Mike. 
That's, that's absolutely 

415
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,440
brilliant. 
So much to think about in the 

416
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:44,720
stuff that we've been covering. 
I guess you're kind of glad to 

417
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,880
to see this published now. 
Yeah, I'm really pleased to see 

418
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,920
it published. 
You know, we've had some great 

419
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,520
writers in here. 
We've had some interesting 

420
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,840
arguments. 
It won't please everybody, but 

421
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,040
we've had to, you know, make a 
decision about what we're 

422
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,760
putting in and what we're 
leaving out and the way we're 

423
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,600
going. 
So it's there, it's useful. 

424
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,440
There's a system's terms that 
all models are long wrong, but 

425
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,120
some models are useful, and I 
think this is a useful 

426
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,480
publication. 
Like brilliant way, perfect way 

427
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,480
to end a podcast. 
So it just leaves me to say 

428
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:26,800
thanks very much for your time 
and to recommend listeners to go

429
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,120
and to get a copy of the 8th 
edition of The Body of Knowledge

430
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,520
as soon as possible. 
But thanks again, Mike, for your

431
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:33,760
time. 
Thank you.