1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,000 Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the chartered 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,400 body for the project profession. This episode is part of our 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,480 series of senior leader interviews hosted by APM Chief 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,480 Executive Professor Adam Bodison. 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,560 This time Adam is in conversation with Pierre Le 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,000 Mann, President and CEO at the Project Management Institute, or 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,120 PMI, a worldwide professional organisation representing the 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,800 project profession that's headquartered in the US. 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,520 An experienced CEO has worked across several sectors. 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,760 Pierre was born in France into what he describes as a family of 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,120 entrepreneurs. He moved to the US 12 years ago 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,800 and has also spent time working in Paris and London. 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,840 With Vietnamese heritage on his father's side, Pierre shares how 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,120 his multicultural background has given him an appreciation of the 15 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,960 diverse strengths of different cultures across PMI's 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,760 international community of members. 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,320 Listen on to hear him chat with Adam about his career journey, 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,640 growing, the recognition of the project profession and why 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,880 leaders need to stay calm in a crisis. 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,640 Hello, Pierre, and welcome to the APM Podcast. 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,840 It's a real pleasure to have you with us today. 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,440 How are you? Hello Adam, Thanks for having 23 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:19,440 me. I'm doing great. 24 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,800 Actually, I'm just back in New York from a trip to Asia and the 25 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,560 weather is fantastic, so who can complain? 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,560 Well, you know, as British we like to talk about the weather a 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,120 lot, but usually not for good reason. 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,520 That's why I was trying. I was trying to adjust. 29 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,520 Very good, very good. Well, you know, this is an APM 30 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,800 first really to have the CEO and president of of PMI on the 31 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,800 podcast. So, you know, it's it's a 32 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,520 pleasure and privilege to have you on and we've got a whole 33 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:48,880 range of things to ask you about today. 34 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,320 So we will we will get started straight away. 35 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,720 One, one of the things I think people are really interested to 36 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,480 know about Pierre is your kind of career journey. 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,640 We obviously know where you are now in your current role, but 38 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,360 I'd be really interested to know, you know, what led you to 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,080 this point, how you first kind of decided to become ACEO and 40 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,880 then later on to make that decision specifically to become 41 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,920 CEO of PMI. So when I made the decision to 42 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:18,440 be ACEO, that's not an easy answer. 43 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:19,960 It it didn't really work that way. 44 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,080 You know, carry all our life are usually quite intimately linked. 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,240 And in my case, I was born in France, I'm Asian by blood. 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,880 My father is from Vietnam. I always say I'm Asian by blood, 47 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,600 European by culture and American by choice. 48 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,960 I was born in a family of entrepreneurs. 49 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,240 My father, my grandfather, my uncle, every, everyone had their 50 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,720 own companies and I was the product of the French system. 51 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,000 You know, we have this system called the Gronzico, right? 52 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,160 The schools that are, let's say, the epitome of the French 53 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,200 educational system, very centralised. 54 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:56,880 So I went to that. And then after that I had, I 55 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,760 still have to do my military service at the time. 56 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,600 So I went for a year. Actually, I was lucky. 57 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,920 I was sent to Canada to work in the French economic intelligence 58 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:09,200 in Montreal. Then I came back, studied in 59 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,120 consulting. You know, I was not very clear 60 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,040 about what I wanted to do. And at the time it felt like 61 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,680 being a consultant was a good way not to make any choice. 62 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,040 But then I felt very quickly the need for autonomy, the latitude 63 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,720 to do things according to my own views, you know, build 64 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,080 organisations and, and products in my own way, shape the culture 65 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,800 that I wanted and I I felt this is how I would feel 66 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,560 accomplished. So I went to smaller companies 67 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,200 where I could immediately be in a decision making role, part of 68 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,240 the C-Suite, actually went to a nonprofit company to be the CFO 69 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,080 managing copyrights for actors and singers. 70 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,400 So very different world. And then from there, things 71 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,040 almost happened naturally and, and I became the CEO of a 72 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,080 publishing company that wanted to move to digital and they 73 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,160 want, they thought that someone who was my age, 31 year old at 74 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,840 the time would be a better choice than someone who had 75 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,680 already a lot of experience in a world that was completely 76 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,320 disrupted, right? We were talking about the end of 77 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,840 the 90s when everything became digital. 78 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,160 So that's how I studied as ACEO. And then, you know, being ACEO 79 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,840 is almost like a profession, right? 80 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,880 Once you do this, you, you just try to be better at it. 81 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,200 You do it in different companies. 82 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:21,800 There are some stages though, you know, when you go from 83 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,320 running one specific business to a portfolio of businesses or 84 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,240 different geographies as well different countries. 85 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,200 And then you learn along the way how to handle different 86 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,440 shareholding structures. You know, I work for listed 87 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,840 companies, family owned, private equity owned and you know, you 88 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:40,800 got increasingly involved also into international global 89 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,880 businesses, scaling them up worldwide. 90 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,400 And yeah. And then I came to PMI because I 91 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,080 thought I could help precisely scale and transform the 92 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,520 organisation. It was very strong brand, maybe 93 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,240 a little bit in a need for refreshment and renewal and I 94 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,480 thought I could really help doing that. 95 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,360 And I also love the focus on people, the global side of it, 96 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,400 the for purpose mentality of the the organisation. 97 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,680 And I also believe truly that successful projects can change 98 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,920 the world for the better. And was a great calling for me 99 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,600 almost. Fantastic. 100 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,760 We definitely have a lot in common there in terms of what we 101 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,520 feel about the impact that projects can make and in terms 102 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,280 of professional bodies and the and the kind of the purpose side 103 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,000 of things. You talk there a lot about the 104 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,400 different countries and geographies that you've worked 105 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,760 in, the different sectors, different industries. 106 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,160 I guess you know, one of the things for me that's interesting 107 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,680 about the project profession is that breadth that it's got. 108 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,440 So I guess that was very helpful in terms of coming into this 109 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,000 role that you had all of that to draw from. 110 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,480 One of the things we're obsessed about in the project profession 111 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,920 is learning lessons and applying lessons. 112 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,400 Are there any kind of leadership principles or lessons that you 113 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,040 think are common across all of these sectors and geographies 114 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,560 and so on? You know, I, I define leadership 115 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,760 as ultimately the ability to inspire others around you to 116 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,160 take action and, and drive change. 117 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,520 So that is not industry specific. 118 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,400 It's about everywhere in and it's not even business specific. 119 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:14,800 On the personal side, I feel that you have to at least I try 120 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,880 to be authentic and not being overly scared, you know, not to 121 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,880 say the right things. And, and, and also I believe 122 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,400 it's important to to avoid platitudes and thinking and 123 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,440 saying the same thing as everybody else, right? 124 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,160 You have to form real personal opinions on things. 125 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,680 A sort of a vet and Shaweng like German people say you this kind 126 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,160 of vision of the world that is more personal to you and that 127 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,680 helps also coming across as more authentic and being real, right. 128 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,120 When it comes to leadership in the corporate world, I think 129 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,840 it's very important to focus on the long term purpose and 130 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:49,120 values. You know, things that are 131 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,240 universal that people will follow even when the lights go 132 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:56,760 off right and and define their own way without a blueprint. 133 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,280 It's not always easy because people often ask for a blueprint 134 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,240 and you try to resist that and and really show them the long 135 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,000 term vision, the purpose, because you want them to find 136 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,360 their own way. To an extent. 137 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,640 It's more effective than trying to tell everyone, especially 138 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,400 when you run large organisations, what they have to 139 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,120 do right. I think it's important also, and 140 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,760 I learned that to focus on teams, not just the individuals, 141 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:24,800 but the the team dynamics. And you learn this a lot from 142 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,400 sports. If you're interested in sports, 143 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,520 you see that my favourite team, PSG has great individuals and 144 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,840 now they finally have a team. Maybe the individuals are not as 145 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,880 well known, but the team works at least as well as before. 146 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,600 And so that dynamic of the team, how you build something that 147 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,120 where the sum of the parts exceeds the parts themselves is 148 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,880 so important to me. And also always think about how 149 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,000 you raise both the ceiling and the floor, right? 150 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,640 So the the minimum performance that is expected, but also make 151 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,440 sure that you bring some inspiration and, and get people 152 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,760 to trust to have the confidence that they can deliver things 153 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,200 that they would would never even think they could. 154 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,840 They would be able to. I actually formalised all of 155 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,000 that in a, my personal philosophy that I call the three 156 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,840 SS. In summary, you know, it's just 157 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,360 three words, right? Solidarity, substance and 158 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,800 standards. And, and it's each of the SS is 159 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,960 a, a combination of two, is a tension in fact between two 160 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,280 different things. Like the first one, solidarity 161 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,720 is both personal accountability and collective ownership. 162 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,280 You know, so I, I tried to summarise all of that and I 163 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,120 actually wrote this out across PMI now. 164 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:39,000 Oh, wow, OK. And, and that's great when you 165 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,320 as a leader can have that kind of personal influence as well. 166 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,960 And I think that speaks to the point that you're making around, 167 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,080 you know, somebody else couldn't just step in and, and lead the 168 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,680 organisation in the same way. It's it's the leader's 169 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:54,800 personality, I suppose that, you know, their their identity is 170 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,320 kind of woven into the fabric of the organisation in some way. 171 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,000 I, I like that you talked a lot there about earlier on about 172 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,800 your own cultural identity and your cultural background. 173 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,200 One of the things about PMI, of course, is that as a global 174 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,200 organisation, you're working with many, many different 175 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,080 cultural, cultural backgrounds and expectations. 176 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,160 And some of those can be, I suppose at, at in tension with 177 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,640 each other as well. How, how do you, how do you kind 178 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,560 of balance the, the different expectations? 179 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:25,360 They're both in a a personal respect as a leader, but also in 180 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,240 terms of I, I don't know the offer that you might have as an 181 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,480 organisation as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 182 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,720 Before my career, it's my personal life that has shaped me 183 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,320 as a multicultural person. You know, I have 51 first 184 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,760 cousins on my dad's side. My grandfather was very 185 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,520 prolific. He had many children and 186 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,520 themselves have many children. So I have first cousins in in 187 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,120 France, of course in the US, many of them in Vietnam, in 188 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,720 Australia, and I'm close to to many of them. 189 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,960 I even have a son who is a British citizen. 190 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,440 He went to study in the UK more than 10 years ago, 12 years ago 191 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,840 now, and he stayed and became a British citizen. 192 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,040 So I think it's all about leveraging differences instead 193 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:09,960 of trying to eradicate differences. 194 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,240 So it's not about having everyone behave in the same way. 195 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,080 It is really trying to accept that by leveraging our 196 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,360 differences and accepting differences, we would be 197 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,160 stronger. So I always try to make people 198 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,760 feel proud of their culture and, and their country. 199 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,080 Even Americans, believe it or not at PMI, of course, because 200 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,920 we're very global, there's always this hesitation to come 201 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,160 across as American. And, and I always tell people 202 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,040 you don't have to, to worry about that. 203 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,200 It's, it's not a problem. Like you have to be proud of 204 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,160 your own roots and identity and culture, but then at the same 205 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,080 time value others and be curious about it and, and make sure that 206 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,120 we leverage all this, all this richness of the different 207 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,080 cultures that form PMI in our community. 208 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,480 You know, and, and you'll see this in my, I try, of course, 209 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,040 it's sort of easier for me because nobody knows where I'm 210 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,640 from. You know, when I'm on the West 211 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,480 Coast in the US, people talk to me in Spanish. 212 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,120 They assume I'm probably Hispanic. 213 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,120 When I'm in Vietnam, people ask me sometimes in Vietnamese and 214 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,160 I, I don't speak Vietnamese, but I do understand that they ask me 215 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,920 if I'm, if I'm sort of a little bit the same way as they are in 216 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,360 France. Of course, people when I speak 217 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,480 French people and, and French. So it's like people can't place 218 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,960 me. So it helps me in a way. 219 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,840 But you'll see that on my social media, for instance, on 220 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,960 LinkedIn, I, I always talk about different countries. 221 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,640 You know, I take any opportunity to expose the world, how each 222 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,160 region, each country has their own strengths and specificities 223 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,920 and, and where they're really good at to promote that. 224 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,000 You know, I think that PMI, we PMI can really be a unifying 225 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,640 factor in the world and actually is a unifying factor factor, you 226 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,800 know, across all product professionals and, and I, I see 227 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,320 this as a, a part of my own mission in life, if you will. 228 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,560 Fantastic. And, you know, I reflect back on 229 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:04,240 my own kind of journey through leadership and I can probably 230 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,400 think in my mind, there's probably, you know, 3 or 4 key 231 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,360 moments where I'd say something happened, usually not something 232 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,600 that's planned, right? Something happened as a 233 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,920 surprise, which I had to deal with. 234 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,240 And it could be an opportunity, it could have been a challenge, 235 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,160 but something's happened. And it's kind of shaped my whole 236 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,240 approach to leadership. And you know what I believe in 237 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,200 and so on. I guess that's something that 238 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,520 all leaders go through these, these pivotal moments. 239 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,480 Are there any that stand out on your journey that have shaped 240 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,240 your own approach to to leadership? 241 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,520 So you have those moments when you are outside of your comfort 242 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,400 zone and this is when you, you learn, right? 243 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,720 There's, I mean, there's a, an old say that anything doesn't 244 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,560 kill you, makes you stronger. And I, I think nothing is more 245 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:53,960 true than that. It's, it's just you have to 246 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,360 develop the resilience when things are going really wrong to 247 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,920 remember that and that, you know, you fight and then one day 248 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:03,880 the sun will rise again and you'll be in a better shape. 249 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,240 And it's in these curves, right, that you have the opportunities 250 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,920 to improve more than in the straight lines. 251 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,360 So I had moments in my career, of course, where I had to step 252 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,800 up, you know, and the pandemic, for instance, five years ago 253 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,120 taught me a great deal, as I think it taught us, many of us a 254 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,040 great deal. You know, it helped me become 255 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,160 more resilient. Also, you know, I have a 256 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,160 tendency to be very calm when in situations of danger. 257 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,640 I, I don't know why, but it's always been like that, even when 258 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,320 I was a child. So that actually helped me And, 259 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,720 and I, you know, I think that if you communicate with, with 260 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,280 determination and calm when things are really not good, 261 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,360 while still being able to make tough decisions, that actually 262 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,320 makes field people safe or safer. 263 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,080 Like they feel they have a, a strong leadership and, and it 264 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,600 calms them down as well, right. And that's what you need when 265 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,040 those situations arise. I've had also like a totally 266 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,760 different level, you know, when I, when I started, when I moved 267 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,400 from running one specific business to running several 268 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,880 businesses, either because I was running a conglomerate of 269 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,920 different companies like which with like a limited synergies 270 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,920 between them or because I moved from a running a business in one 271 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,400 country to running businesses in multiple countries. 272 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,160 This was a tough step for me to be honest. 273 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,800 Like I, that happened to me the first time about 25 years ago. 274 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,360 And the first time that happened to me for a while, for a year, a 275 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,360 year and a half, I had no clue what to do right. 276 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,360 I didn't know what my job was, if I was supposed to be involved 277 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,080 in the details or not at all involved. 278 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,360 And it's only after some practise that you understand how 279 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,760 to do both, right. So being involved sufficiently 280 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,120 hands on and the same time giving a lot of autonomy and, 281 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,880 and focusing on the, the choice of the people you have and, and 282 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,560 the dynamics of the teams, not on execution, right, but be 283 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,480 quite involved in the details of the design and, and direction 284 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,480 and strategy and you know, that kind of stuff. 285 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Look, we've had moments, at least people of my generations, 286 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,320 where we saw things go up and down very quickly. 287 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,920 You know, we had this first Internet bubble. 288 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,760 I mentioned my first year old was at the at the time when the 289 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,720 bubble was was getting bigger and then it exploded. 290 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,680 So we all had to go through that very interesting period where 291 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,160 stuff was crazy and suddenly a disaster. 292 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,040 And it kind of shaped my sense of heightened sense of risk, you 293 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,240 know, when things go too well. So I've kept that, you know, 294 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,360 and, and when things go well, I know that it's temporary. 295 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,080 And I try to make sure that nobody remains complacent. 296 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,760 People find me nicer when times are tough than when they're not. 297 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,280 And because when they're not is when I, I feel on the edge 298 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,080 almost that something is going to happen. 299 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,320 And we know that, you know, trees never grow to the sky as 300 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,880 we say in French. And at one point things will not 301 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,920 be as good, right. So, and then personal things, 302 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,120 you know, when I moved to the US 12 years ago, a bit more than 12 303 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,560 years ago, I came here because we in the company I was running 304 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,080 at the time, we had made a big acquisition and, and we had some 305 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,800 integration issues in the US, which was by far our largest 306 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,440 market. So I moved to the US to fix 307 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,320 that, and I thought I would say 2-3, four years and then see I'm 308 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,880 still here and I change companies. 309 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,720 My life has actually evolved. But when I moved, although I 310 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,080 knew the US culture very well, I had worked for U.S. companies 311 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,160 before and I had had US teams before. 312 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,720 It is still different, right? It's a big adjustment. 313 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,480 I worked in Italy for a while. I learned the language and I 314 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,360 found it not so difficult. But the US is actually a 315 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,200 slightly bigger stretch, at least for someone who grew up in 316 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,760 Europe. And so, you know, it forced me 317 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,560 to adjust. And I do remember my first years 318 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,960 were not easy. The first two years business was 319 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,280 not easy. I came because we had problems. 320 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,080 And indeed, we did have problems. 321 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,840 We had a very quick decline of our largest client. 322 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,920 And then, you know, I found ways to overcome that, you know, with 323 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,520 another massive client later in the tech industry. 324 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,720 But I, I was really not enjoying myself. 325 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,920 And I do remember one day walking in the streets of 326 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,920 Manhattan to the subway so early in the morning. 327 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,040 And it was some, I don't know, sometime in spring and and it 328 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,800 was amazing around me, right? And I felt I'm so privileged, in 329 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,079 fact, to be here. So I have to enjoy myself more 330 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,160 because if I don't, then I would make everyone miserable as I am 331 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,120 miserable. And I think, you know, I don't 332 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,640 know if it's the reason, but from there things started to go 333 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,280 much better. And, you know, it's also a 334 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,400 lesson I learned, right? When things are not easy, try to 335 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,360 enjoy yourself a little more and, and, and that will help, 336 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:42,960 right? It will help your environment. 337 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,040 Yeah. I think it's very good advice. 338 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,960 Interesting your point around being calm in a crisis is is 339 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,800 well made. I, I, I always say to that to my 340 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,640 team. I said the day when you see me 341 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,640 panic, everybody should be worried. 342 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,200 I said, because, because then was really got something to 343 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,240 worry about. I said, but probably you'll 344 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,760 never see that because, you know, I think it's part of our 345 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560 job as as leaders, isn't it, which is to hold steady in times 346 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,480 of, of, of turbulence. We're APM, the only chartered 347 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,080 membership organisation for the project profession. 348 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,720 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 349 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,520 support you need to make an impact, delivering better 350 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,120 projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive 351 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,480 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 352 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,040 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 353 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,400 apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, 354 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,080 society benefits. We haven't talked a lot about 355 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,400 the project profession yet and given that an area we are both 356 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,720 passionate about, we should probably spend a bit of time on 357 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,160 that. There's a lot going on. 358 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,920 I wonder if you might give us a sense of what you think the 359 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,360 current project landscape is and and in particular how 360 00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:59,600 individuals and organisations should be adapting to the 361 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,160 changing world around us. I still believe that it's almost 362 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,520 a no brainer of the project economy as we call it. 363 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,040 So let's say 1/3 of the global economy is is growing faster 364 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,320 than the global GDP because the need for transformation is 365 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,520 constant and in fact accelerating, right? 366 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,160 We have of course climate emergency because it's not 367 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,120 because you're looking the other way that the problem goes away, 368 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,760 right. So the emergency is here, AI 369 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,720 transformation obviously and technology disruptions. 370 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,320 You, you see also an increased fragmentation in many areas, 371 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,200 right? I mean, it started with digital 372 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,080 media that created so much fragmentation of commerce, of 373 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,920 advertising, of media, you know, so everything has started to 374 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,560 fragment that way. But the consequence of that is 375 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,360 that it made it easier for small businesses to succeed in areas 376 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,320 that before where very protected for large players, right? 377 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,240 So the, the benefits of skill are not as obvious as they used 378 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,720 to be. And, and, and you need to fight 379 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,920 constantly against new players and, and even definitions of 380 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,880 your markets that are getting more blurred, right? 381 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,040 So it's puts a lot of pressure, a lot of stress and it drives, 382 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:12,600 of course, a lot of transformation. 383 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,680 That's the right side for project professionals, right? 384 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,720 So we're we're seeing a lot of demand. 385 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,000 And now, of course, with the world geopolitical 386 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,880 reconfiguration that we're attending at one point, of 387 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,800 course things will stabilise one way or another and, and 388 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,200 investments would be made to adjust to this new reality. 389 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,240 Right now, people are still waiting to see what's going to 390 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,640 happen because it's not very clear. 391 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,920 But once it will get more clear, there will be also, I think a 392 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,560 significant amount of investment that will come from from that 393 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,320 reconfiguration. So I feel there's a, a big way 394 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,200 to ride for project professionals. 395 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,600 But obviously, and we might want to talk about that the 396 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,360 profession is changing and definitely we will see project 397 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:58,160 professionals being successful in their career if they have 398 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,960 more than just project management skills, right? 399 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,960 They have to, I mean the technical skills, if you will 400 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,080 not very technical, but the the traditional skills of project 401 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,280 professionals in execution are table stakes. 402 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,000 But to succeed you, we need much more than that business acumen, 403 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,920 ability to communicate, to convince stakeholders, and 404 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,840 really to go beyond the strict definition of project 405 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,120 management. Yeah, I I think that's true. 406 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,280 I was having a conversation actually just earlier today 407 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,760 about the the blurry lines, if you like, between different 408 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,040 professions. So as an example, you take 409 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,240 project management and product management and change 410 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,320 management. You know, there are, you know, 411 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,760 interdependencies between all of those, but but actually they are 412 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,360 all, you know, things in their own right. 413 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,640 But actually a really effective project professional has that 414 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,600 kind of wider set of skills and experiences to be able to draw 415 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,600 from, including in the, as you say, in the leadership space as 416 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,760 well. So I think it's a a point well 417 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,080 made. One of the things, Pierre, that 418 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,600 you've introduced PMI is the more framework initiative, which 419 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,680 I think it's encouraging project professionals to rethink their 420 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,240 roles and in particular to redefine success. 421 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,560 It's something we're talking a lot about at APM as well. 422 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,400 I'm really interested if you tell us a bit more about that 423 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,200 and in particular the impact that you think that will have. 424 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,480 Yeah, more, or we call it sometimes MORE because it's an 425 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,800 acronym is, is simply a broader vision for the profession and, 426 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,200 and what it can accomplish. So we, when I joined, we 427 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,000 redefined our purpose, our strategy and, and, and, and one 428 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,160 thing that we, we tried to make clear is that we were more 429 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,120 interested in project success than just project management 430 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,480 success. So we launched this largest 431 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,400 research in PMS history. We formed a group of experts 432 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,520 from the academia practitioner C-Suite, interviewed in depth 433 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,880 150 people and then went on with a survey of 10,000 people. 434 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,440 And, and, and so talking about their projects and, and also 435 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,160 redefining what is project success, right? 436 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,720 Where we came up with this definition of project success 437 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,680 being that value successful projects deliver value that is 438 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,240 worth the effort and expense. So this idea of a continuum and 439 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,560 an equation, right? You it's always about fighting 440 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,840 waste, trying to focus on the value that you deliver. 441 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,680 This is a little uncomfortable. So because, well, some people 442 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,440 will say, we've always said that, although it's not 443 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,720 necessarily true, but but it's also a little bit uncomfortable 444 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,800 because it puts the project professionals in a situation of 445 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,040 being accountable for stuff that they don't fully control. 446 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:39,200 But you know, as Aceo Adam, that unfortunately or fortunately, we 447 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,840 are all the time and the C-Suite is all the time responsible for 448 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,200 things that they are not fully in control of. 449 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,480 You know, that's part of life when you want to elevate 450 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,120 yourself. So you still have to accept that 451 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:54,240 risk and and still do something and influence and try to really 452 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,120 focus on the long term and the short term execution as well. 453 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,000 So all this tension is complicated, but you know, it 454 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,280 does add and that's also uncomfortable perception to hard 455 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,160 facts, right? It's not just about the triple 456 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,080 constraints. Measuring to a business gaze, 457 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,000 measuring to a scope, measuring to a budget, measuring to a 458 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,960 schedule is way beyond that. It's managing the perception of 459 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,320 stakeholders, you know, not just by the way, understanding the 460 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,560 perception they have, but shaping it right and, and and 461 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,600 convincing people because in the end, perception is also reality. 462 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,760 It it's, it's about also this ability to constantly reassess, 463 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,760 you know, the value that you deliver. 464 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,040 Be flexible with mandates, not necessarily execute something 465 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,600 that doesn't make any sense and brought in a broader way. 466 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,360 And that's the E of more right? Expand your, the context in 467 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,520 which you operate, right? See projects in the broader 468 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,080 business and, and even world context as much as possible. 469 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,280 So yeah, that is the broader vision we have the mindset that 470 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,400 we think can have a major impact first of all on making projects 471 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,520 more successful, but also on elevating the profession and 472 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,160 getting more recognition and and more influence. 473 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,280 And that has LED us by the way to expand the boundaries of PMI. 474 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,320 So you mentioned before areas that are adjacent, you know, 475 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,120 when we made this acquisition of Cognitica and AI integrated the 476 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,400 Agile Alliance, the project measures without bother acquired 477 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,440 PMOGA, etcetera, etcetera. So you know that's how this 478 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,920 materialises in what PMI does. But the bigger picture and the 479 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,120 most important thing is this broader vision we have for the 480 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,560 profession. Yeah, that makes sense. 481 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,240 And the thing about value as well in this often in the 482 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,240 conversations I have here, Pierre, is this, this idea that 483 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,600 sometimes the value that you create isn't the, is unintended, 484 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,720 It's it, it wasn't in the business case, you know, and 485 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,680 that's because the context can change so much that sometimes 486 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,120 you, you don't deliver the value that you you intended, but you 487 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,560 do deliver some of the value that was unintentional. 488 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,400 And so trying to then articulate the extent to which something 489 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,240 was, you know, as, as you say, worth the time and, and expense, 490 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,520 that's something which can be a long term endeavour. 491 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,520 You know, sometimes it could be decades after you finish 492 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,560 something to really be able to say for sure with that Longview 493 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,040 back. You know, if we were back 494 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,320 twenty, 30-40 years ago making that same decision again, yes, 495 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,800 it would be worthwhile. Despite all of the pain and 496 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,600 whatever else we've been through, it would still make 497 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,440 sense to do it. Yeah. 498 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,200 And and by the way, Adam, in reality we, we understand that 499 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,480 depending on the type of project, sometimes it's very 500 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,400 difficult to to be fully in charge of the success if it's a 501 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,200 very long term success, right. We understand that it's it's not 502 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,600 the same if you manage an internal IT project or a very 503 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,840 large government LED infrastructure project. 504 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,080 But still, there's always a way to think about more right? 505 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,840 How you manage perceptions, how you maybe try as much as 506 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,400 possible, stretch as much as you can, your ability to change the 507 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,720 parameters of the project, when the projects parameters should 508 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,720 be changed in the in the interest of the community you 509 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,200 serve. And that's the kind of business 510 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,600 agility point that you're making it a small like a small like 511 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,840 agility there. But but you know, the point I 512 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,000 was going to make is that I think for for those larger 513 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,480 organisations and government funded projects, you know, 514 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,440 publicly funded projects, I think they are probably the best 515 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,000 placed to be able to take that Longview back sometimes. 516 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,480 But I, my hunch is that they don't really want to do that 517 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,800 because, you know, the priority is what's happening today and 518 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,360 tomorrow, not what happened 30 years ago or something. 519 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:39,160 But, but probably there is some value in, in, in doing that by, 520 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,000 by the way as well. I, I, they have this great 521 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,400 expression in the Netherlands where I'm sure you will have 522 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,600 heard this before, which is where they describe a situation 523 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,800 where a project delivers into the triple constraint. 524 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,160 You know, it delivers, you know, on time, within budget and so 525 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,640 on, but actually delivers none of the benefits that were 526 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,560 intended because the, because the world has moved on. 527 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,680 The classic being an IT project, for example, where everything 528 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,600 was delivered on time, but it's not needed anymore. 529 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,760 And the, the, the expression they use is the operation was 530 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,800 successful, that the patient is dead, which which which always 531 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,160 makes me laugh, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it describes a 532 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,120 number of projects that I've seen, certainly. 533 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,920 It's a good summary and in a very Dutch form of humour. 534 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,200 Absolutely. Well, well, let's talk about the 535 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,920 future. What do you think is going to 536 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,440 happen over the next decade in terms of the evolution of the 537 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,840 project profession? And you know, what should you 538 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,760 know, PMI and APM, what should we be doing as, as, as 539 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,760 professional bodies to help shape that future or prepare the 540 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,120 profession for what's coming? You know, I know that. 541 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,600 I know that crystal ball. I don't even know how the world 542 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,600 would be in one year from now. But one thing that I think is a 543 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,200 safe bet for us, at least it's a bet that we made at PMI, is that 544 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,200 AI will transform the knowledge economy in in a significant way. 545 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,880 So it's not just project management, right? 546 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,400 It's, it's broader than that. It's the whole knowledge work, 547 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,800 which is, I don't know, 1 billion people in the world and 548 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,560 most of the jobs that our audience today are involved in. 549 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,400 And so that transformation coming from AI, of course, 550 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,640 generates a lot of anxiety. It's not the first time that we 551 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,160 have these disturbing moments right in the history of 552 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,160 humanity. And I love to take the examples 553 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,160 of when, you know, Galileo discovered that the Earth was 554 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,520 not the centre of the universe. That's was a very disrupting 555 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,920 thought and disturbing thought for for humans, You know, when 556 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,400 Darwin established that, you know, in fact, the man was an 557 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,880 evolution from and the animal, right. 558 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,040 We're not particularly exceptional when Freud 559 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,920 discovered that we don't fully control consciously our acts, 560 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,040 right? It's, it's, it's those moments 561 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,760 of questioning about the, the sense of humanity and what does 562 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,160 it mean to be human? And now with AI, we have the 563 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,840 same thing, right? So it's like, why are we even 564 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,360 here if a machine can do a better job than us at many 565 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,920 things? And it's definitely disturbing, 566 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,280 but we've always adapted in the past, right. 567 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,480 So I'm sort of betting on the fact that we would be able to 568 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,200 adapt to that reality as well. It does mean that we need to 569 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,120 elevate the ceiling, right? Because I was talking about 570 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,920 elevating the floor and the ceiling AI is going to elevate 571 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,760 the floor like the most of the executional task of project 572 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,400 management will be automated. So the question for us is how do 573 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,800 we elevate the ceiling? How do we elevate the profession 574 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,160 to a level where it does things that AI won't do? 575 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,280 And a good example of that is accountability in particular, 576 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,640 right? In the end, someone has to be 577 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,960 accountable. It's hard to make a machine 578 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,360 accountable. Like someone has to be 579 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,080 accountable. So if we refuse accountability, 580 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,320 including of things that we don't fully control, then it's 581 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,400 going to be hard for us to elevate the ceiling and we'd be 582 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,840 caught up by the floor, right? Raising, right. 583 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,240 So definitely for us, a PMPMI, we have to help project 584 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,840 professionals to elevate their role. 585 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:04,920 Yeah, that makes, that makes good sense. 586 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,440 Now one of the things in the UKI talk about a lot is the kind of 587 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,360 image problem, if that's the right expression that the 588 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,600 project profession has. And, and I'm particularly 589 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,600 thinking of those who are in senior C-Suite roles, probably 590 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,120 not in project delivery organisations, but I'm, I'm 591 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,520 thinking more broadly where the project profession is seen as a, 592 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,200 I don't know, a technical function or a backroom function. 593 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,360 It's not seen as a strategic function. 594 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,560 It's not seen as relevant to leadership or strategy 595 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,120 execution. My personal view is that it is 596 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,560 relevant. Is that just the UK thing? 597 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,960 Is that something you're seeing in the US and, and globally from 598 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,680 your, you know, PMI context and your, your own kind of world 599 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,240 travels? No, I, I don't think it's a, 600 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880 it's AUK thing at all. It's global and, and, and 601 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000 frankly, I don't think project professionals are the only ones 602 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,800 who complain about that. Like, I've been working for 603 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,840 different professions in my life and I sort of felt that any 604 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,680 profession feels at one point that it's not recognised enough, 605 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,120 right? But yes, definitely this is a 606 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,320 very common feeling across our profession and actually even a 607 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,400 driving force of our project success work and our more 608 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,440 framework at PMI. It's precisely to elevate the 609 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,040 profession so that it gets more or better recognised. 610 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,680 You know, one thing that I read, sometimes people are asking me 611 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,400 or you to make sure that project professionals have a seat in the 612 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,600 C-Suite, that we create chief project officers positions and 613 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,160 things like that. Asking for it in itself won't 614 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,520 work, right? We, we have to be realistic with 615 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,960 that to gain recognition as a profession, we need to expand 616 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,480 our impact, right and accountability. 617 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,160 We need to speak the language of the C-Suite. 618 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,160 We have to think about business imperatives behind the projects 619 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,920 that we need. We have to connect to strategy. 620 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,320 We have to really create the positive impact for the 621 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,280 organisations that we work for. And then yes, of course, PMI and 622 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,840 APM can advocate and we should advocate. 623 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,480 But in the end, the C-Suite execs need to see a change, an 624 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,680 improvement in the value they get from project professionals 625 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,400 and then naturally they would recognise the profession even 626 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,080 more. By the way, just to be clear, in 627 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,080 some industries this problem doesn't fully exist, right? 628 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,120 People who manage big programmes in the military or 629 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,760 infrastructure, you know, they are well recognised. 630 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,240 But it's true that in some other areas where they are more 631 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640 involved in internal projects and things that may not be at 632 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,520 the same level of at the same stake maybe or don't have the 633 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,880 same stake, there's sometimes this recognition problem. 634 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,440 But again, if we stick to execution reporting, we won't be 635 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,480 able to elevate the ceiling and, and and get the impact that we 636 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,360 should have. And, and then it's getting more 637 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,720 difficult to be recognised as well. 638 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,080 It's a two way St. Yeah, that makes sense. 639 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,880 And so, so it's, it's action, not just words that you're 640 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,480 advocating for that I agree with that. 641 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:01,560 And interesting. The words are a problem, aren't 642 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,440 they, that you mentioned the terminology. 643 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,120 I, I, I, I, I've sometimes had conversations with CEOs, C-Suite 644 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,360 and so on. And, and I see that as soon as I 645 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,080 talk about project management, I see the shutters come down, you 646 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,679 know, but if I have exactly the same conversation, but I replace 647 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,280 the words project management with strategy execution, and I 648 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,840 could say exactly the same thing, they're interested. 649 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,920 So that kind of, as you say, talk the language of the C-Suite 650 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,480 is important. Yeah, I mean, not, not all. 651 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,040 I mean, I don't know if all project management is strategy 652 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,280 execution, but I think if we talk about projects, if we talk 653 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,520 about transformation, if we talk about project professionals, you 654 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,239 know, we're fine. In the end, I don't think the 655 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,920 C-Suite has anything against project management, but they do 656 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,040 sometimes associate project management or project managers 657 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,159 with stuff that is not in their own focus, right? 658 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,360 It's like, OK, people have to do that probably, but that's not my 659 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,240 problem. Because they don't see that 660 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,120 transformation is at stake here. Like it's not going to happen. 661 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,320 Their whole strategy is not going to be executed. 662 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,120 The whole transformation ideas and vision won't be executed if 663 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,400 the projects are not successful. And that they all understand 664 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,320 that. They all understand that 665 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,040 projects have to be successful. Now, if they see people who can 666 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,640 actually help, they'll like these people. 667 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,320 Recognition won't be an issue at all, right? 668 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,120 So it's all about what you actually deliver. 669 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,680 I think I read in APMI, I'm pretty sure it was APMI report 670 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,760 around the kind of global shortage of the number of 671 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,960 project professionals that are going to be needed and and from 672 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,120 memory I think the number was 25,000,000 by 20-30. 673 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,520 I'm sure you'll correct me if I've got that wrong, but but the 674 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,640 point is we, we don't have anywhere near the number of 675 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,560 project professionals that we're going to need. 676 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,920 What do you think APM and PMI need to be doing to make our 677 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,440 profession more attractive, make it more inclusive to kind of get 678 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,120 this volume and calibre of people that we're going to need 679 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,720 to deliver on the world's kind of global ambitions? 680 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,560 Yeah. We actually just reset the 681 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,200 number of those numbers, right, that you mentioned before. 682 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,760 Yeah, because we, we thought we should as part of our strategy, 683 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,680 refocus on people who are really doing project work, project work 684 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,840 as a, as a, their main professional activity, right. 685 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,080 So not, not people who need some project management abilities or 686 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,680 skills to do their jobs, but people who actually do project 687 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,120 work most of their time in their professional life. 688 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,120 So we narrow down to about 40 million people in the world. 689 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,240 And so by definition, we'd need a little less in terms of 690 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,320 growth, but there would be more, there would be actually people 691 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,120 who do project work. There's still a, a, a good, a 692 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,720 good need for, you know, new people because in particular in 693 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:55,520 some of the most mature markets like the US or the UK, we have 694 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,200 people also retiring and they need to be replaced. 695 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,080 And again, the project economy is growing faster than than than 696 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,880 the global GDP, right. So there's a a lot of work here 697 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,000 that would be, would have to be done and, and that requires 698 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,400 people to do it. And, and of of course, there's 699 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,440 always the risk that if we can't elevate the profession, then 700 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,080 that work would be done by other people like consultants or, you 701 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,440 know, people who not necessarily have the skills to actually 702 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,520 manage properly a project. So it's very important that we 703 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,560 attract people to the profession, just like you said, 704 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,800 you know, in my opinion, part of the issue is the way we talk 705 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,480 about the profession. If you talk to a student about 706 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,560 project management or being a project manager, they might be 707 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,040 mightily excited, not necessarily negative, but 708 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,280 mightily excited by that. But if you talk about projects, 709 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,840 they get very excited when they see the examples of things that 710 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,160 actually transform the world. They get very excited by that. 711 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,400 So talking about project management as a calling, the 712 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,400 ability to affect real change, to elevate our world, how you 713 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,760 can affect positively economies, communities, your country, a 714 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,920 certain activity that you have passion for. 715 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,760 That's how you get people to project. 716 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,400 And if they come to projects, then of course they understand 717 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,320 that if you want to make a project successful, you have to 718 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,840 learn how to do that. And that's exactly what is 719 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,960 project management. I also believe that expanding 720 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,040 the industries that we we talked to and we address can play an 721 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,480 interesting role. So at PMI, we've really started 722 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,720 to put more emphasis on industries outside of the, you 723 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,720 know, traditional software, construction, utilities, 724 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,280 etcetera. So we now work a lot with 725 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,120 companies in marketing and fashion, in music, you know, 726 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,920 where a lot of project success is necessary as well. 727 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,480 And, and that also makes the profession a little more sexy, 728 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,320 right? And gives a different face to 729 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,480 project professionals. And that works. 730 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,360 You know, we talk to them on TikTok, we talk to them on 731 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,960 Instagram. So we meet people where they are 732 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,760 and in a way that I feel is compelling. 733 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,920 And you know, frankly, we have a lot of programmes, I'm sure you 734 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,520 do as well for young professionals. 735 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,320 And I see very excited young professionals who have big 736 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,360 ambitions to change the world and own the future of the world 737 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,240 and take it from our generation and and that's exciting to see. 738 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,680 Final question for me, if I may, Pierre, there'll be lots of 739 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,160 people who are very enthused by what you've had to say today and 740 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,480 you've got this opportunity to give them a piece of advice. 741 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,920 What would you say to project professionals they could be at 742 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,280 any stage in their career? What one piece of advice would 743 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,400 Pierre Le Man from PMI give to these project professionals? 744 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,840 Well, first of all, don't stop learning. 745 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,480 It it, it is a constant. We learn every single day. 746 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,720 We have to keep learning. You have to learn techniques. 747 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,480 It's not just about doing leadership training. 748 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,080 And you know, you have to learn all the techniques and 749 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,800 understand how AI is shipping all of that. 750 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,160 You know, at PMI, we have a tonne of resources. 751 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:51,720 I'm sure you do as well at 8:00 PM. 752 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,160 So keep learning. I think it's very important to 753 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,680 attend events in person events virtual as well, but in person 754 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,520 it's so important meeting your peers, learn from them, network, 755 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,400 connect, give back to our profession. 756 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,280 You know, sometimes when it's six, 7:00 PM and I have some 757 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,520 event like I feel I don't know if I want to go. 758 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,440 I'm not done with work, I'm tired. 759 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,840 But then you go and the moment you're there talking to other 760 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,320 people, learning from them, giving back, you don't regret, 761 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,000 right? So make that effort. 762 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,760 It's so important. And then? 763 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,120 Just one very simple thing, be ambitious and be confident. 764 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,680 Be confident that as a profession, as professionals, we 765 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,200 can do more and it really depends on us well. 766 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,640 I think they are very sound words of wisdom. 767 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:35,840 I've written them down myself, Pierre. 768 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,440 Well, look, I think that's all we've got time for today. 769 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,680 Pierre, thank you so much for giving up the time and talking 770 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,000 to us today. It's a pleasure talking to you 771 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,440 and I'll see you soon. Thank you, Adam. 772 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:58,600 Thank you very much. Thanks to Adam and Pierre for 773 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,320 taking time out to share their conversation with the APM 774 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,000 Podcast. Don't forget to rate and review 775 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,480 us wherever you get your podcasts. 776 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,080 You can find out more about pmi@pmi.org, and if you want to 777 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,280 contact us with your feedback, suggestions or ideas for topics 778 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:19,000 we should cover, e-mail us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 779 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,120 Spotify users can also leave us a comment directly within the 780 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,000 Spotify app. That's it for this episode. 781 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:27,520 Thanks again for listening.