1 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:12,060 Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The Chartered 2 00:00:12,070 --> 00:00:15,700 Body for the Project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm 3 00:00:15,710 --> 00:00:18,290 the editor of Project Journal and your host. 4 00:00:18,940 --> 00:00:22,480 One of our objectives on the APM Podcast is to share the stories 5 00:00:22,490 --> 00:00:25,240 of project professionals who work outside the so-called 6 00:00:25,250 --> 00:00:27,410 traditional project management sectors. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,330 One exciting area for the profession is broadcast media 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,790 and it is from that creative world that we welcome. 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,050 Today's podcast guest Rachel Baldwin is Head of Programme and 10 00:00:38,060 --> 00:00:41,850 Project Delivery at the BBC, where she leads a team of 115 11 00:00:41,860 --> 00:00:45,750 people tasked with a huge variety of IT and technology 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,830 programmes, including a brand new home for the beef in 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,190 Birmingham and creating the largest orchestral recording 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,450 space in Europe in East London. But while Rachel is now a 15 00:00:55,460 --> 00:00:58,170 seasoned project professional, she started her career as a 16 00:00:58,180 --> 00:01:01,840 documentary filmmaker. Among her credits the top rated 17 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:05,360 factual shows like One Life Pregnant in Two Wombs and Mr 18 00:01:05,370 --> 00:01:08,820 Trebus's Life of Grime, which was nominated for a broadcast 19 00:01:08,830 --> 00:01:11,180 award. It may seem like an unusual 20 00:01:11,190 --> 00:01:14,120 career path, but documentary making, Rachel tells us, has 21 00:01:14,130 --> 00:01:17,060 more parallels with project management than it might appear. 22 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:20,720 Listening to both sides of the story, considering multiple 23 00:01:20,730 --> 00:01:23,920 options, and finding a middle path forward of vital skills in 24 00:01:23,930 --> 00:01:27,740 both disciplines, she says. But how did Rachel make the 25 00:01:27,750 --> 00:01:30,460 career switch, and what project management lessons did she learn 26 00:01:30,470 --> 00:01:33,460 along the way? Listen on to hear her chat with 27 00:01:33,470 --> 00:01:36,360 project writer Andrew Saunders, who interviewed her for the 28 00:01:36,370 --> 00:01:48,090 upcoming Spring issue. Why don't you start by telling 29 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:51,010 me a little bit about how you came to be doing what you're 30 00:01:51,020 --> 00:01:52,450 doing? You know, what's your kind of 31 00:01:52,460 --> 00:01:55,610 career path being? I went to university to study 32 00:01:55,620 --> 00:01:59,170 geography just simply because I loved the subject and didn't 33 00:01:59,180 --> 00:02:01,290 really have an idea of what I'd like to do. 34 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:08,039 When I graduated I on route stumbled into filmmaking because 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,590 I went to University of Birmingham and it was down the 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,190 road from Pebble Mill, BBC and we sort of inherited when they 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,650 were chucking cameras and old kit out. 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,380 It all came down the road controlling them. 39 00:02:21,430 --> 00:02:24,100 So I started making documentaries as a student. 40 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:28,500 It just sparked something in me that thought actually I could 41 00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:32,060 make a living doing this lightly, and I wanted to set out 42 00:02:32,070 --> 00:02:37,140 for a documentary maker. So I graduated and took a job in 43 00:02:37,150 --> 00:02:40,620 a corporate filmmaking company, making, you know, videos to the 44 00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:43,480 a internal training. Company videos, yes. 45 00:02:45,230 --> 00:02:49,520 Within a year I'd met people in the documentary sector in 46 00:02:49,530 --> 00:02:54,340 Bristol, where I lived, and I got a role as production 47 00:02:54,350 --> 00:02:58,010 secretary, I think, and worked my way up. 48 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:01,350 And then I sort of bravely went freelance as a researcher for 49 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,190 them. And then, having got experience 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,610 with that company, was then freelance and worked around lots 51 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:12,000 of companies in Bristol and finally managed to get into the 52 00:03:12,010 --> 00:03:14,570 BBC. I got a job as an assistant 53 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:18,890 producer and then I went in. In 2000 I decided to move to 54 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:22,390 London and work for the London documentary unit. 55 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:25,650 I love listening to two perspectives or multiple 56 00:03:25,660 --> 00:03:30,590 perspectives and trying to see, well, just to represent people's 57 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,150 voices accurately. And I think there's a real 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,550 parallel with what the BBC, because I work in BBC 59 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:42,290 technology, umm, but I have to work very closely with our 60 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:46,330 content, making partners in news, in the content division, 61 00:03:46,340 --> 00:03:51,120 which makes everything but news. And the nations who make all the 62 00:03:51,130 --> 00:03:56,230 regional and local stuff, I need to listen to their needs, work 63 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,610 out how we provide them with the technology they need. 64 00:03:59,530 --> 00:04:02,400 And so you've got the sort of Technology Strategy and the 65 00:04:02,410 --> 00:04:05,050 technology's view of what would be best. 66 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:07,740 But you've got the user requirements coming in from the 67 00:04:07,750 --> 00:04:09,360 people that want to use. Yeah. 68 00:04:09,590 --> 00:04:12,100 And then I've got the finance people. 69 00:04:12,110 --> 00:04:15,200 So sort of bear in mind as well and running the budgets and 70 00:04:15,210 --> 00:04:18,920 running big team. I think the documentary making 71 00:04:18,930 --> 00:04:21,040 background. I'm naturally interested in 72 00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:25,100 people's points of view. The one of my main projects I'm 73 00:04:25,110 --> 00:04:27,820 trying to consider all the stakeholders opinions and 74 00:04:28,030 --> 00:04:31,780 finding a middle path. Do you think it helps having a 75 00:04:31,790 --> 00:04:34,240 track record as a content creator? 76 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,620 It really helps me understand the pressures that are the 77 00:04:40,630 --> 00:04:45,600 content making teams are under from my first hand experience 78 00:04:46,030 --> 00:04:49,890 and I'm keen to ensure that we make their life as easy as it 79 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:51,960 can be. That if we're rolling out new 80 00:04:51,970 --> 00:04:55,980 technology we give excellent training, we provide hand 81 00:04:55,990 --> 00:04:58,400 holding whilst people are getting used to the new kit. 82 00:04:59,230 --> 00:05:03,640 So I think it it makes me emphasise with the demands upon 83 00:05:03,650 --> 00:05:08,140 my colleagues in Compton in areas I think when you're doing 84 00:05:08,150 --> 00:05:14,150 change management, listening to people's concerns and genuinely 85 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,980 listening to them and addressing them is the only way of of 86 00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:23,600 speeding tech adoption. I think listening and responding 87 00:05:23,650 --> 00:05:28,860 to people's feedback and adapting plans or solutions in 88 00:05:28,870 --> 00:05:32,510 light of that is key to successful then management. 89 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,110 So why, why? Why make the change from this 90 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,910 kind of exciting, glamorous thing that you love doing to 91 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:44,500 becoming a project manager? So it is to do with having 92 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:49,120 children. So the filmmaking, even if 93 00:05:49,130 --> 00:05:53,260 you're filmmaking in the UK, requires you to be quick to 94 00:05:53,270 --> 00:05:57,400 respond to stories and to to sort of go out and film. 95 00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:00,380 I found that when I had two quite small children based in 96 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:05,400 London I I was finding it increasingly difficult to be 97 00:06:05,410 --> 00:06:08,860 able to have the freedom to drop it all and run, to exit the film 98 00:06:08,870 --> 00:06:13,720 of woman that's now gone into Labour, or whatever that 99 00:06:13,730 --> 00:06:18,120 observational documentary making requires you to live someone 100 00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:19,800 else's life. Yeah. 101 00:06:19,970 --> 00:06:20,940 Live your own. Yeah. 102 00:06:20,950 --> 00:06:22,880 Interesting. And as a mother, I wanted to 103 00:06:22,890 --> 00:06:26,640 live my life and have the freedom to be with my children. 104 00:06:26,650 --> 00:06:30,220 Umm, I wanted to shift to a job that I could be london-based. 105 00:06:30,230 --> 00:06:35,310 I don't really live my own life. Yeah, I did that in two steps. 106 00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:40,770 Step one was be more development, executing where our 107 00:06:40,780 --> 00:06:43,810 leading teams that are coming up with TV ideas and selling them 108 00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,730 to commissioners. I did that for a couple of 109 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:50,910 years, maybe three, And then I thought, I'm not sure this is 110 00:06:51,660 --> 00:06:55,030 going to stretch me as much as I'd like my career to stretch 111 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,990 me. So I went to a very 112 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,650 inspirational woman called Anne Morrison, who used to run the 113 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:05,070 BBC documentary department. So I approached her and asked 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:10,000 her advice and I said I'm going to crossroads in my career, I'd 115 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:12,280 really like to find something a bit different, he said. 116 00:07:12,290 --> 00:07:15,460 Ohh, there's this thing called project management that we're 117 00:07:15,470 --> 00:07:19,780 implementing within the BBC now. And I really think with your 118 00:07:19,790 --> 00:07:22,680 experience of producing and directing and making things 119 00:07:22,690 --> 00:07:26,590 happen and bringing people together, you've got every skill 120 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,140 that you'd need. There are some tools and 121 00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:32,240 techniques that you need to learn, but why not come and 122 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:34,740 interview for a job I've got coming up? 123 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:37,100 So I went for the interview and got the job. 124 00:07:37,430 --> 00:07:42,040 It was a six month freelance contract to the project manager, 125 00:07:42,130 --> 00:07:46,420 a strategy for indie supply. Ever since then I've been at 126 00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:48,500 BBC. You must have done a decent job 127 00:07:48,510 --> 00:07:52,060 then. I I did, but I was learning, not 128 00:07:52,070 --> 00:07:55,720 literally on the job. Yes, I must admit I've really 129 00:07:55,730 --> 00:08:00,850 loved learning all the different frameworks and all the different 130 00:08:00,860 --> 00:08:04,080 techniques you can use. Tell me about the things that 131 00:08:04,090 --> 00:08:07,220 you've been working on most recently that kind of one of the 132 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:09,520 projects that you're working on at the moment, I have worked on 133 00:08:09,530 --> 00:08:12,040 recently that have been most impactful. 134 00:08:12,370 --> 00:08:15,940 I'm currently head of Programme and Project Delivery BBC 135 00:08:15,950 --> 00:08:20,120 Technology. Well, actually for a subset of 136 00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:23,380 BBC technology, the big bit which is broadcast and end user 137 00:08:23,390 --> 00:08:29,080 technology and that entails overseeing about 120 projects 138 00:08:29,090 --> 00:08:34,710 per annum, a big portfolio of technology delivery and that can 139 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:41,650 range from fitting out whole new headquarters in Birmingham, 140 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,530 which we're currently planning. So we're creating a brownfield 141 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:50,610 site, redeveloping and my team of planning the technology fit 142 00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:55,920 out of that new building. We're also creating the home of 143 00:08:56,290 --> 00:08:58,860 music in East London at East Bank. 144 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:05,890 We're exiting Maida Vale, which is a existing studio where we 145 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:10,840 were called Orchestras and pop and Classical Settings, and 146 00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:13,960 we're creating completely new home in the Olympic Park. 147 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:17,820 Right, yes. Cody Spank Yeah, name my team of 148 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:21,990 fitting, currently planning and procuring a fit out. 149 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,690 So to create Europe's biggest orchestral recording space, and 150 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:31,930 also to create some studio functionality for recording 151 00:09:31,940 --> 00:09:37,410 radio shows. Those are two examples of the 152 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:42,590 responsibilities, include the BBC's IT infrastructure and all 153 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,960 our IT, So my department looks after all broadcast technology 154 00:09:47,970 --> 00:09:50,850 and all IT. How many people on your team? 155 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:57,950 At present it's about 115, mainly in London and Salford, 156 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:04,950 with some homeworkers. The mix of disciplines is I've 157 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,490 got the BBC's head of business analysis and her team in my 158 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:12,280 department, I've got head of Change and engagement and her 159 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:16,220 team in my department and then a lot of programme of project 160 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:18,380 managers. How does it work then? 161 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:20,840 Project management as a profession, How does it set up 162 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:22,040 at the BBC? How do they? 163 00:10:22,050 --> 00:10:26,700 How do they use it? We have three types of project 164 00:10:26,710 --> 00:10:30,020 manager. We've got project managers, 165 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,460 technical project managers and delivery managers. 166 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,290 Agile project management is well established, right, particularly 167 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:40,610 where software development is required. 168 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,890 And we have called those individuals delivering managers 169 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:49,590 because we want to distinguish between your average project 170 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,330 manager and someone that's more product focused and focused upon 171 00:10:54,340 --> 00:10:57,910 software engineering and delivery of new functions and 172 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,580 features or new products. So that those delivery managers 173 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:08,250 are all in the product area. There are some the outwardly 174 00:11:08,260 --> 00:11:10,490 facing consumer products like iPlayer. 175 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:14,740 Yeah, Phones, There are also some in technology group because 176 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:19,960 we've got our own internal products that enable us to do 177 00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:23,980 the work that we do in the media supply chain or indeed some of 178 00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:27,580 our internal processes like finance and HR. 179 00:11:27,870 --> 00:11:31,790 So there are delivery managers across the BBC looking after 180 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,480 software, internal and external. Then there's the technical 181 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,060 project managers. I'm the professional lead for 182 00:11:40,070 --> 00:11:47,140 the BBC for that subset and and they tend to deal with technical 183 00:11:47,150 --> 00:11:51,910 project delivery, delivery of technology and as a result 184 00:11:51,970 --> 00:11:55,620 generally reasonably large spends with procurement 185 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:59,850 requirements, commercial considerations and also an 186 00:11:59,860 --> 00:12:04,110 understanding of how to bring technology to the users in a way 187 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,860 that encourages adoption. So they've got slightly 188 00:12:07,870 --> 00:12:11,410 different skills from other project managers who we don't 189 00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:14,890 call technical, who perhaps might be doing that sort of 190 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:18,050 thing that I did when I first started, which was bringing 191 00:12:18,060 --> 00:12:21,500 together stakeholders to agree a strategic approach to something 192 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:25,990 and an implementation plan or transforming an element of the 193 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,580 business, changing how the business process works or 194 00:12:29,870 --> 00:12:35,420 looking at savings and bringing new ways of working to bear to 195 00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:39,140 change an operating model. So we've got PM who aren't 196 00:12:39,150 --> 00:12:42,340 technical, who deal with more transformation delivery. 197 00:12:42,770 --> 00:12:45,900 So that's the first thing is we've got three types. 198 00:12:46,810 --> 00:12:51,250 The delivery managers tend to be embedded within the product. 199 00:12:51,610 --> 00:12:57,410 At our Triangle product Manager software engineers, they tend to 200 00:12:57,420 --> 00:12:59,110 be focused on particular products. 201 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,350 Uh-huh. My technology project managers 202 00:13:02,420 --> 00:13:08,090 we deploy to projects. We have an annual funding round, 203 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,560 so I seek capital investment for the portfolio. 204 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:18,730 We get a set of projects agreed and we then deliver within that 205 00:13:18,740 --> 00:13:22,950 financial year those things or we can have multi year 206 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,570 programmes where we're working across a longer period to 207 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:31,410 deliver the technology to enable the BBC to do what it wants to 208 00:13:31,420 --> 00:13:36,160 do for the audience is or perhaps to make a more efficient 209 00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:39,610 way of working. I think we're reasonably mature 210 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:44,580 organisation in that there is an understanding that one needs to 211 00:13:44,590 --> 00:13:49,150 be focused upon benefits and there's also an understanding 212 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,900 that you need to reuse the right project management for for the 213 00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:55,270 right challenge. So if you want to do process 214 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,990 redesign, you might use a lean called kit. 215 00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:03,010 If you want to deliver software, then an agile methodology. 216 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,550 If you want to deliver a a new news studio for news at 10, 217 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,570 which is what we did last year, that's very much a waterfall 218 00:14:11,580 --> 00:14:14,270 project. You know what steps need to be 219 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,790 taken in what order. You can plan it out quite 220 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,720 precisely and so we use the right approach, which is a 221 00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:22,930 wonderful technique to manage that. 222 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,050 I will appreciated are the benefits of project management 223 00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:31,370 as discipline by the kind of you know by the senior managers 224 00:14:31,380 --> 00:14:33,240 senior management team at the BBC. 225 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,950 There are formal programmes to support all of our strategic 226 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,220 objectives being delivered. We've got the Director of 227 00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:44,900 transformation who reports directly to the CEO. 228 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,990 And yeah, they totally get the fact that they need project 229 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,190 management because if we're going to meet the deadlines 230 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,570 we've set for ourselves, you need visibility of how far we've 231 00:14:58,580 --> 00:15:02,470 got with stuff, umm, someone to run the budget. 232 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,190 So that project and make sure it, it delivers not only on time 233 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,850 but the quality everyone set out. 234 00:15:08,860 --> 00:15:13,660 Yeah, yeah, I do think BBC leadership generally really does 235 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,310 right project management profession and need and 236 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,290 recognises the need for it at senior level in project 237 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:23,910 management. And so you have quite a lot of 238 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,050 responsibility. So I was the programme manager 239 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:31,150 for the technical relaunch of BBC Three on telly and that's 240 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,850 six months work bringing all the right people across technology 241 00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:39,690 and distribution together to effectively enable the 242 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:43,280 transmission of BBC Three audience again. 243 00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:47,750 The people that run the Chapel, hey, we're more interested in 244 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,830 are we going to launch editorially or what continuity 245 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,810 voices do we want for this launch? 246 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:57,320 You know how we going to position this channel with a mix 247 00:15:57,330 --> 00:16:00,130 of content that we can offer within the budget? 248 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:05,890 Yeah, they do not know anything about how their pictures get to 249 00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:08,070 audiences. And nor would. 250 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,470 They be accepted to. So the project manager or 251 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,440 programme manager as I was then, is required to make sure that 252 00:16:16,450 --> 00:16:21,800 every different technical element is considered to ensure 253 00:16:21,910 --> 00:16:26,000 that their needs are met. Basically the only person in the 254 00:16:26,010 --> 00:16:28,660 organisation that was really across all of the technical 255 00:16:28,670 --> 00:16:30,540 stuff with me, right? Yeah. 256 00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:34,040 Is this is project management seen as a kind of tool in 257 00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:37,610 modernising the BBC to kind of you know to for for the future 258 00:16:37,620 --> 00:16:40,500 And it's in it's in the kind of world of you know in this kind 259 00:16:40,510 --> 00:16:44,600 of fragmented media environment that we that we live in now. 260 00:16:44,950 --> 00:16:47,600 Yeah, absolutely. There's a range of 261 00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:52,650 transformation initiatives way to ensure that what we're 262 00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:56,350 offering the audience is, is meeting their needs. 263 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,190 So as technology unfolds different devices, different 264 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,349 ways of streaming content, our offer has to keep pace with what 265 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,869 people need and in fact lead lead it, you know. 266 00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:13,859 So we've got, you know, amazing teams ahead of the curve 267 00:17:13,869 --> 00:17:16,010 thinking what can we deliver next? 268 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,599 There's a sort of trade off or there's a sort of there's a, 269 00:17:18,609 --> 00:17:22,089 there's a tension at any rate between they're sort of creative 270 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:26,660 process of content production and the, you know, the more kind 271 00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:29,100 of rigid process that kind of structures around project 272 00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:31,120 management. How do you give people enough, 273 00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:34,980 strong enough process to defer them to do their jobs, but not 274 00:17:34,990 --> 00:17:38,440 so much that you're kind of hampering the sort of creative 275 00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:41,460 side and I suppose. I don't think we're ever, ever 276 00:17:41,470 --> 00:17:44,560 hampering the creative side because we're constantly 277 00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:45,740 enabling it. Yeah. 278 00:17:45,790 --> 00:17:52,400 Yeah, the big tension is between aspiration and what's possible. 279 00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:58,360 So there is an aspiration to launch a new studio On this date 280 00:17:58,810 --> 00:18:03,910 and I look at that and think, hmm, right, you haven't got 281 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:10,740 enough time or money to do so. Umm, so it's my professional job 282 00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:16,220 to to go to really senior colleagues and say I I do 283 00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:19,300 understand that you would like to have this studio go live by 284 00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:22,620 this date. Let me just talk you through all 285 00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:24,740 the steps required to get to that point. 286 00:18:24,750 --> 00:18:29,980 Yeah, demonstrate why actually we need two more months setting 287 00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:35,000 out to do UM. And then actually, if you take 288 00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:39,690 the time to explain quite clearly what is or isn't really 289 00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:46,090 feasible and can demonstrate why, to be honest, most of the 290 00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:50,630 senior people I've worked with have acknowledged, OK, right, 291 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,190 well, we better, we better plan it for two months later or come 292 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,970 on, let's do it six weeks later and you're going to have to nip 293 00:18:57,980 --> 00:18:58,990 and tuck, right? OK. 294 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,160 Yes, yes, yes. So there is a tension between 295 00:19:03,650 --> 00:19:07,680 there's a lot of things many people across the BBC would like 296 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:11,130 to be doing and very brilliant ideas. 297 00:19:12,290 --> 00:19:16,360 Clearly we need to prioritise which ones would you do and also 298 00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:19,860 we need to be realistic about how much time and effort and 299 00:19:19,870 --> 00:19:24,080 cost those things will take. I think you have done some APM 300 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:26,520 qualifications. What's the role of organisations 301 00:19:26,530 --> 00:19:30,120 like APM in kind of building the kind of profile of the project 302 00:19:30,130 --> 00:19:31,860 management profession more widely? 303 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:36,950 As the BBC, when the Chartered Project Professional 304 00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:43,200 Qualification was launched, we absolutely lent in and myself 305 00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:44,990 and a number of us got chartered. 306 00:19:45,180 --> 00:19:49,710 I've really valued that qualification because it gave me 307 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,190 an opportunity to to look back at what I'd learned and really 308 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,910 consolidate my practise, to sort of think through how I'd used, 309 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,810 what I'd learnt in practise, what had worked well, what 310 00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:07,250 happened. I have done lots of training 311 00:20:07,950 --> 00:20:12,880 where the BBC often ask our project managers to take the APM 312 00:20:12,890 --> 00:20:16,820 PMQ right? So that's something we really 313 00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:19,300 rate and what. Is there is there something 314 00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:22,080 particular about it that makes you that makes that makes you 315 00:20:22,090 --> 00:20:26,390 choose that one? It requires the person taking 316 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,620 the qualification to assimilate the information, but also to 317 00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:36,380 play it back in written form. So there's a bit more thinking 318 00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:39,480 and critical analysis applied, right? 319 00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:41,160 Right. Yeah, has been learnt. 320 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,950 And so yes, I like. Personally, I like the fact that 321 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,570 people have to write long answers because it requires one 322 00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:54,340 to have sort of assimilated. Yes, critically analysed and fed 323 00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:56,010 out. Yeah, the answer, The response. 324 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:58,930 That you've come to, yeah. Yeah, so it's, you know, it's 325 00:20:58,990 --> 00:21:03,310 it's it's a really robust learning exercise, learning, you 326 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,690 know, way of embedding knowledge and I think you weren't. 327 00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:09,130 Trained as a professional, as a project manager to start with. 328 00:21:09,140 --> 00:21:12,370 So this is something that you kind of came across in your 329 00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:15,070 career and you know, what are the aspects of it that you've 330 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,950 that were kind of, you know, harder than you thought it was 331 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,630 going to be? In my present job, the hardest 332 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:26,480 thing is being asked to deliver projects at very short notice 333 00:21:26,490 --> 00:21:31,250 and very little warning, right? Because we really do want to to 334 00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:34,990 meet the needs of people that are asking us to do delivery. 335 00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:39,790 But sometimes things do come up at short notice and we have to, 336 00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:44,310 we have to assemble a team pretty quickly and against 337 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,410 aggressive deadlines. So in my current role, that's 338 00:21:47,420 --> 00:21:50,120 the most challenging thing. How do you persuade? 339 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:52,140 People that the sort of because I mean a lot of what you're 340 00:21:52,150 --> 00:21:55,320 doing is, is, is introducing changes to the way people do 341 00:21:55,330 --> 00:21:59,460 their jobs and and how do you persuade people that these kind 342 00:21:59,470 --> 00:22:02,040 of changes that you're introducing are things that they 343 00:22:02,050 --> 00:22:05,310 want to get on board with. Well, I've got an excellent head 344 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,290 of fans and engagement. You runs a team of seven or 345 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:13,050 eight people who are professional change managers and 346 00:22:13,060 --> 00:22:15,180 so they've got their own change toolkit. 347 00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:19,670 Initially we look at what are the benefits, the organisation 348 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,510 who owns that benefit. So it might be the cost saving 349 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,740 or audience value. So that's sort of gives us our 350 00:22:26,750 --> 00:22:29,680 why, why are we doing this. There might be more than one one 351 00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:33,240 reason, but normally one or two benefits. 352 00:22:34,110 --> 00:22:37,560 So that's the sort of the why that we can say out loud to 353 00:22:37,570 --> 00:22:42,260 everyone to explain why we're doing something and then we look 354 00:22:42,270 --> 00:22:45,920 at the change impacts. So you look at what impacts this 355 00:22:45,930 --> 00:22:49,770 change would have on the individuals or groups and teams 356 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,330 to change impact assessment and work with those groups who are 357 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,990 going to experience the change to really listen to what their 358 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,610 concerns are. And some of them are really 359 00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:05,160 valid. They have thought through stuff 360 00:23:05,170 --> 00:23:07,230 that we haven't thought, yes, I mean for that. 361 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,180 And we adapt our plans in light of that feedback. 362 00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:14,240 And the idea is to get the people that are subject to the 363 00:23:14,250 --> 00:23:18,260 change to really understand why we're doing it and believe in 364 00:23:18,270 --> 00:23:22,720 the solution and feel confident that they're part of the future. 365 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:29,030 It is about making sure they are going to get trained and shown 366 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,270 how best to do their jobs in this new. 367 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,130 So the short answer is I've got brilliant change team. 368 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:40,420 But the longer answer is people have to believe in the future 369 00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:42,670 and that they're part of it and that they're going to have the 370 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,940 right skills to be able to work in that organisation, mostly as. 371 00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:49,940 A lot of it is, a lot of the resistance is, is fear about 372 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:53,820 getting left behind or becoming, you know, relevant or something 373 00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:57,290 like that, so. It absolutely is I I learnt a 374 00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:00,630 massive lesson which was on another favourite programme of 375 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,390 mine. The Digital Production 376 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,040 Partnership was a partnership between BBC, ITV and Channel 4, 377 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:10,830 and it was at a moment where the filmmaking industry had to move 378 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,790 from giving tapes with information in a piece of paper 379 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:21,150 inside the tape box. Yeah, companies make films for 380 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,000 the telly, giving a tape with a piece of paper inside it 381 00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:27,850 describing the technical detail of what's on there. 382 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,620 How long this etcetera, whether it's mono or stereo or stereo. 383 00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:38,030 But the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 recognised that that we needed 384 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,150 to become more digital and we created a partnership and 385 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,800 not-for-profit partnership at the time to bring together the 386 00:24:46,810 --> 00:24:53,970 industry to move from tapes with bits of paper in two files and 387 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,670 metadata on XML. Yeah, spreadsheets, yeah, being 388 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,950 delivered. So we had to set a new standard 389 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,430 for what that file format would be and what the metadata, the 390 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,150 information, how that would be structured. 391 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,830 And we standardised that across the industry, which involved 392 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,730 working with all the broadcasters. 7 In the end all 393 00:25:17,740 --> 00:25:22,450 came on right Sky and everyone. So we've got a pan industry 394 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:25,770 consensus on this file based delivery standard. 395 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,050 And then we have to work with the production companies that 396 00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:32,710 making the content, all the post production companies that were 397 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:38,470 post producing and editing and finalising these files to show 398 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,930 them how to do the files and all the kit manufacturers, the 399 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:45,090 technology required to make these things. 400 00:25:45,810 --> 00:25:47,550 And then? Within the broadcast there's all 401 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,540 the workflows that media supply chain had to receive these 402 00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:54,980 things and process them ready for going out on telly and I 403 00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:58,340 player everything. So the Digital Production 404 00:25:58,350 --> 00:26:01,280 Partnership was one of my favourite ever programmes to run 405 00:26:01,370 --> 00:26:03,860 and I I worked on it for four years. 406 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:09,330 It was a massive pan industry change programme and what I 407 00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:15,130 learnt there was if you engage early, listen genuinely to 408 00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:19,990 people's concerns you can then absolutely you've got time in 409 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,670 your programme to then respond and adapt And we ended up doing 410 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:30,020 major like a year long set of events where we train the whole 411 00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:32,430 industry. I've been now to do this, yeah. 412 00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:33,730 Yeah, utterly. Bonkers. 413 00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:36,160 We wouldn't necessarily have chosen to do that unless we'd 414 00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:38,830 heard him Fearful they were. So it's a bit. 415 00:26:38,890 --> 00:26:41,400 Just to summarise the bit, is the BBC a good place for the 416 00:26:41,410 --> 00:26:42,550 beer? Project manager? 417 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,110 Yes, if you. Absolutely, yeah. 418 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,730 Honestly, there's some really big projects that, you know, you 419 00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:52,670 can launch new TV channels, new studios, you can transform 420 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,350 operating models within divisions or across the whole 421 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:59,200 BBC. You can do quite detailed 422 00:26:59,210 --> 00:27:04,090 business process redesign on a small scale or you can bring new 423 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,810 audience offers to bear by introducing new products. 424 00:27:09,060 --> 00:27:13,360 Sounds you know, not that long ago that was a project. 425 00:27:13,370 --> 00:27:18,250 Yeah, it's now a real great product and you can work. 426 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,860 You're working with journalists and creatives as well as 427 00:27:21,870 --> 00:27:26,900 technologists and change managers, as well as business 428 00:27:26,910 --> 00:27:30,880 operations people and the people that work at the BBC. 429 00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:34,040 I tend to find a really passionate and really driven and 430 00:27:34,050 --> 00:27:39,460 really bright and can do so. It makes it really, really 431 00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:46,530 collegiate place to work. Thanks to Rachel for giving her 432 00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:50,000 time to both Project Journal and the APM Podcast, and thanks to 433 00:27:50,010 --> 00:27:52,090 you for listening. APM. 434 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,810 Members can check out our big interview with Rachel in the 435 00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:57,610 forthcoming Spring issue of Project, which will land on 436 00:27:57,620 --> 00:28:00,470 doormats in March. If you don't currently receive 437 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,390 Project Journal, then you may want to consider becoming an APM 438 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,010 member. Head over to 439 00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:09,050 apm.org.uk/membership for the details. 440 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,300 For. More insights into project 441 00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:14,990 management in the media sector? Delve into our podcast archive, 442 00:28:15,030 --> 00:28:17,380 where you'll find interviews with project professionals from 443 00:28:17,390 --> 00:28:20,200 Channel 4 and global media agency Wavemaker. 444 00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:22,400 Links are in the episode description. 445 00:28:22,910 --> 00:28:26,000 That's it from us for today. As ever, we want to hear your 446 00:28:26,010 --> 00:28:28,000 comments, feedback and suggestions at 447 00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:32,940 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Thanks for listening.