1 00:00:09,070 --> 00:00:11,940 Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The Chartered 2 00:00:11,950 --> 00:00:15,590 Body for the Project profession. This episode is part of our 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,500 series of Senior Leader interviews hosted by APM Chief 4 00:00:18,510 --> 00:00:20,780 Executive Professor Adam Bodison. 5 00:00:21,580 --> 00:00:24,800 This time Adam is speaking to Chris Baldy, Army Portfolio 6 00:00:24,810 --> 00:00:27,010 Director at the UK Ministry of Defence. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,650 Chris shares his journey through the ranks of the civil service, 8 00:00:30,700 --> 00:00:33,750 including his rise from admin assistant to portfolio director 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,410 and how he, in his own words, stumbled into project 10 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:39,350 management. Projects and programmes, Chris 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,870 says, are central to tackling the main challenges facing the 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:43,950 army, including the modernisation of vital 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,630 equipment. None of that is possible without 14 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,990 a pipeline of talented project professionals entering the 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,310 Ministry of Defence. And Chris tells Adam about the 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,840 department's approach to growing and developing its project 17 00:00:53,850 --> 00:00:56,460 talent base, while reminding us that you don't have to be in 18 00:00:56,470 --> 00:00:59,080 uniform to deliver projects in the Army. 19 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,390 Good afternoon, Chris, and welcome to the APM Podcast. 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,570 It's a real pleasure to have you here today, hot off the heels of 21 00:01:12,580 --> 00:01:16,130 my recent visit to Army HQ. So welcome. 22 00:01:16,950 --> 00:01:19,350 Thank you, Adam. To start with, I wondered if you 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,740 might tell us a little bit about your career journey, Chris, and 24 00:01:22,810 --> 00:01:25,880 how you came to be Head of Portfolio Management for the 25 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:27,760 Army within the Ministry of Defence. 26 00:01:28,910 --> 00:01:31,700 Yeah, of course. So portfolio management is a is 27 00:01:31,710 --> 00:01:34,080 a function is is part of my role. 28 00:01:34,090 --> 00:01:36,690 I've got a part of my role that's also in the head of 29 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:39,040 professional space for the wider P3M. 30 00:01:39,050 --> 00:01:43,640 So it's a it's a dual role that tracks along P3M. 31 00:01:43,690 --> 00:01:47,840 So I'm a career civil servant. I joined the civil service as a 32 00:01:47,850 --> 00:01:50,880 as an admin assistant and I guess as you hear quite a lot of 33 00:01:50,890 --> 00:01:54,000 people talk around kind of stumbled into project management 34 00:01:54,050 --> 00:01:57,560 and and never looked back. So took the opportunity that was 35 00:01:57,570 --> 00:02:00,640 handed to me, probably more than more years than I'd like to 36 00:02:00,650 --> 00:02:04,580 admit, a go to do some of the kind of entry level training 37 00:02:04,590 --> 00:02:08,389 courses into into the function and then using that training. 38 00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:11,460 Into a bit more specialist roles within project delivery. 39 00:02:11,470 --> 00:02:15,830 So I've been a risk manager and I've been a a scheduler working 40 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,480 across a whole load of different diverse projects which which we 41 00:02:19,490 --> 00:02:23,190 often see in in Defence. And then when portfolio 42 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,160 management became a bit more into focus in the last kind of 43 00:02:26,170 --> 00:02:30,040 5-6 years, I took the opportunity to set up the 44 00:02:30,050 --> 00:02:33,520 infrastructure organisations portfolio, which then took me 45 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:35,710 into having done that into the army space. 46 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,070 So just to be clear, sometimes on these podcasts I've heard 47 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,990 about people who are accidental project professionals. 48 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,410 You know, they just woke up one day and realised the jobs they 49 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:49,530 were doing was a project role. It was that the case with you 50 00:02:49,540 --> 00:02:52,290 then or or was it quite a deliberate move from that kind 51 00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:55,290 of admin starting point through into projects? 52 00:02:55,810 --> 00:02:58,280 I'm not sure. I quite woke up realised I was a 53 00:02:58,290 --> 00:03:00,670 project professional. I think as I kind of went 54 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,960 through my my first role that was aligned to kind of the 55 00:03:04,970 --> 00:03:07,940 infrastructure world, I then quite quickly got into a role 56 00:03:07,950 --> 00:03:11,290 that was more associated to projects and programmes and was 57 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:12,630 lucky enough to be working for someone. 58 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:15,410 That then introduced it as you realise what this is, this is 59 00:03:15,420 --> 00:03:16,410 about. Project management. 60 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:18,370 Why don't you go and do some of this training? 61 00:03:19,190 --> 00:03:20,920 Yeah, no, it's it's on. Sounds brilliant. 62 00:03:20,970 --> 00:03:23,500 And of course we hear a lot about projects and programmes, 63 00:03:23,590 --> 00:03:27,310 but I I suppose there's, there's probably a lot of misconceptions 64 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,400 out there about what kinds of projects and programmes are 65 00:03:30,410 --> 00:03:32,630 taking place in the army and within your portfolio. 66 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:34,370 I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that. 67 00:03:35,580 --> 00:03:38,950 In terms of what the Army are doing in the portfolio I cover, 68 00:03:39,020 --> 00:03:42,860 hopefully it won't be a surprise to hear that we cover a whole 69 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:45,430 load of things from those heavy vehicles. 70 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,610 So in layman's terms, tanks, some of the lighter, more mobile 71 00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:54,730 vehicles, some are Range Rover or a quad bike all the way up to 72 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,270 helicopters, which again is something that some people kind 73 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,620 of find odd. Why the Army buying helicopters? 74 00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:01,840 There's certain variants that are that are bought through the 75 00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:04,910 Army system, which is the Chinooks and you're Apaches. 76 00:04:05,590 --> 00:04:09,230 There's also firing systems, so things like ground to air 77 00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:13,080 defence, as well as all of the communication bits that link all 78 00:04:13,090 --> 00:04:17,040 those things together. And then also there's the the 79 00:04:17,050 --> 00:04:20,540 true integrators. So if a Army unit were to 80 00:04:20,550 --> 00:04:23,930 deploy, they need to make sure they've got power and water. 81 00:04:24,610 --> 00:04:28,320 All of those sorts of things. So effectively if if you can 82 00:04:28,330 --> 00:04:32,340 think of anything that the army might need to deploy to afford 83 00:04:32,410 --> 00:04:35,580 forward based operation, it's bought by the portfolio, is 84 00:04:35,590 --> 00:04:38,430 bought in the portfolio. And what would you say the main 85 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,170 challenges are then facing the army? 86 00:04:40,180 --> 00:04:44,910 And what's the role, I suppose, of projects and programmes in 87 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,440 solving some of those issues? The short answer to to that is 88 00:04:49,450 --> 00:04:51,970 that projects and programmes sit at the centre of solving 89 00:04:52,340 --> 00:04:55,890 problems at the army currently face and that kind of challenge 90 00:04:55,900 --> 00:05:00,590 sits around the army's equipment which I described previously has 91 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,290 been under invested in in in for many years with a lot of it 92 00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:08,570 going out of service either in the next kind of 2-3 years or 93 00:05:08,580 --> 00:05:11,010 slightly longer term. So project and programmes at the 94 00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:13,970 centre of the army's modernisation agenda and this is 95 00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:18,710 around replacement of of some of that equipment in terms of 96 00:05:19,010 --> 00:05:23,310 modernising, so buying a lot of the same stuff but just newer, 97 00:05:23,420 --> 00:05:27,780 but also buying new vehicles so. The recognised infantry 98 00:05:27,790 --> 00:05:31,380 programme which is buying the box of vehicle which is one of 99 00:05:31,390 --> 00:05:33,950 the large vehicles, which is which is wheeled rather than 100 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,170 tracks, so kind of at the very centre. 101 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,930 Of of solving that problem. And another problem we have, 102 00:05:40,940 --> 00:05:45,450 which isn't unusual across a lot of industries, is around finding 103 00:05:45,460 --> 00:05:47,890 project delivery professionals and recruiting them. 104 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,830 I've been in the project profession 2 years now. 105 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:54,340 Myself and everywhere I go, everybody's talking about we've 106 00:05:54,350 --> 00:05:57,550 got to learn lessons from previous projects and then apply 107 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,290 them to projects going forward. What I'm things I've been trying 108 00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:04,170 to do is to drill down into that a bit more, in a bit more detail 109 00:06:04,180 --> 00:06:06,850 and get a sense of, well, what are those key lessons. 110 00:06:06,860 --> 00:06:09,620 So I suppose what I'm interested to ask you about is what are the 111 00:06:09,630 --> 00:06:12,980 key lessons in relation to project leadership that you've 112 00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:16,180 learned through your role leading a portfolio at the MOD? 113 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:21,350 So learning of lessons and cycling those back through is is 114 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,140 a is a problem. We often have a mentality if you 115 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:26,470 finish something you move on to the next thing without learning 116 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,770 and feeding that back in. I think one of the things that 117 00:06:29,820 --> 00:06:33,570 I've learned through doing that project leadership and then 118 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:37,510 going into portfolio management is around making sure we take 119 00:06:37,580 --> 00:06:40,910 time at the start of a project to really get the foundation 120 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,610 set. Because not only does that 121 00:06:42,660 --> 00:06:45,450 improve your chances of delivering the the project or 122 00:06:45,460 --> 00:06:49,030 the programme successfully, you've got a much better dock 123 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,870 into the portfolio. Could I just ask just in 124 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,560 practical terms, how, how, how you do it? 125 00:06:53,570 --> 00:06:56,790 Because I guess I'm thinking you've got lessons learned, uh, 126 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,390 kind of leadership level. You've got lessons learned on 127 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,250 individual projects and programmes that are going on 128 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:05,150 right across the army and and probably more broadly across the 129 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,350 defence. That's a lot of lessons. 130 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,220 I mean, how do you, just, in practical terms, gather all of 131 00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:13,670 that intelligence together and make sure the right things are 132 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,180 pulled out for the right kind of future projects? 133 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:21,810 Use of technology is is really important and whether that be on 134 00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:25,830 a kind of really simple repository type system where you 135 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,750 kind of record what's the lesson and what type of of programme 136 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,970 because what we have through our. 137 00:07:31,670 --> 00:07:35,180 Assurance processes is when we get a new programme dropped in 138 00:07:35,190 --> 00:07:39,540 from the strategic centre, there's a a really quick kind of 139 00:07:39,550 --> 00:07:41,000 Chequers, you know what we're doing here. 140 00:07:41,010 --> 00:07:43,500 Is this one of the? Helicopters. 141 00:07:43,510 --> 00:07:45,480 Is it? Is it a heavy, Is it a light 142 00:07:45,490 --> 00:07:48,600 vehicle? And being able to then get after 143 00:07:48,610 --> 00:07:50,420 those lessons that have been learned through previous 144 00:07:50,430 --> 00:07:53,680 projects of the same and putting that through a gated review to 145 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:56,040 make sure there's a check. Have you learned the lessons 146 00:07:56,050 --> 00:07:59,470 from XY&Z? And just while talking about 147 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,910 kind of great project leaders, obviously I've I've met you a 148 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,150 few times, I've met some of your team, obviously some really 149 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,310 talented project leaders there. So you you must know, therefore, 150 00:08:09,380 --> 00:08:12,200 what the characteristics and traits are of a great project 151 00:08:12,210 --> 00:08:13,090 leader. What what? 152 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:14,530 What? What would you say those are? 153 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,510 So if I kind of stick to the rule of three, I think the 154 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,350 incredible. So I think there's definitely 155 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,730 something around there's a leader being credible to be able 156 00:08:24,740 --> 00:08:27,690 to talk around your experiences and then also being able to lean 157 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:31,530 in and support when when needed. Transparency is super important. 158 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,750 Have been really open and honest around successes, but also the 159 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,210 challenges and not being afraid to kind of flag when there's a 160 00:08:39,220 --> 00:08:41,970 problem. And I think there's also third 161 00:08:41,980 --> 00:08:43,429 one being around being adaptable. 162 00:08:44,380 --> 00:08:47,550 So being able to get the best out of people when there's 163 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:50,970 pressure or things go wrong. So I think the other thing that 164 00:08:50,980 --> 00:08:55,290 I find certainly in the defence context and even more so in a in 165 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:57,860 a context which is split between military and civilian, there 166 00:08:57,870 --> 00:09:00,060 needs to be an adaptable approach to how you lead people, 167 00:09:00,070 --> 00:09:01,420 because there's lots of different people, lots of 168 00:09:01,430 --> 00:09:04,310 different kind of drivers, certainly in the defence 169 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,510 context. And you've raised a really 170 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,170 important point there, Chris, which I wonder whether some of 171 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:12,350 our listeners might not be aware of around the military and 172 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,250 civilian mix, if you like, within the project profession, 173 00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:17,820 within the Army, because it's people might think, well it's 174 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:19,650 only military project professionals, but you've got 175 00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:20,680 both. Haven't you did want to say a 176 00:09:20,690 --> 00:09:22,310 bit more about that and how that works? 177 00:09:23,790 --> 00:09:27,000 So we've got a a split of military and civilian in a 178 00:09:27,010 --> 00:09:32,500 workforce of around 650 and there's about 60% civilian, 40% 179 00:09:32,510 --> 00:09:34,800 military. And when I say military is Army 180 00:09:34,810 --> 00:09:38,620 Navy and the Royal Air Force, although predominantly in the 181 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:41,120 Army space. We do have some Royal Navy and 182 00:09:41,130 --> 00:09:44,550 Royal Air Force colleagues in some of our aviation programmes 183 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:47,640 that I described earlier. So that comes with a really 184 00:09:47,650 --> 00:09:50,980 interesting challenge around, as you described earlier, the 185 00:09:50,990 --> 00:09:53,620 accidental project delivery professional. 186 00:09:53,710 --> 00:09:58,160 And we find that our military colleagues often get posted into 187 00:09:58,290 --> 00:10:01,310 project delivery roles and they don't realise that they're in a 188 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,910 project delivery professional. Context or environment until 189 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,410 they turn up on day one. What what's your assessment of 190 00:10:08,420 --> 00:10:11,520 the maturity and professionalisation of the 191 00:10:11,530 --> 00:10:13,960 project delivery community across the Army, and and how 192 00:10:13,970 --> 00:10:16,550 would you say that's aligned to the MOD more broadly? 193 00:10:17,850 --> 00:10:21,100 It's one of those things that it's good, it's getting better, 194 00:10:21,150 --> 00:10:23,260 it's in progress but there's still plenty to do. 195 00:10:23,330 --> 00:10:26,560 We often hear the kind of the bad news stories and defence 196 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:31,240 procurement but I think our our maturity in in the army and and 197 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:35,080 in fact through defence is is pretty good through our kind of 198 00:10:35,090 --> 00:10:37,840 central work, the project delivery functions got a pretty 199 00:10:37,850 --> 00:10:40,690 strong strategy. It's currently being refreshed 200 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:43,760 just because they do it in four yearly chunks rather than every 201 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:47,640 year and that links quite strongly into the the central 202 00:10:47,650 --> 00:10:50,480 government's vision for accreditation. 203 00:10:50,490 --> 00:10:54,180 So it's a really exciting time to be in the in the profession, 204 00:10:54,190 --> 00:10:56,340 in in defence and and broader government. 205 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,790 We talked earlier on about recruitment is a real challenge. 206 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,610 We know that. I can't remember the exact 207 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:04,800 statistic now, but it's it's something like we're gonna need 208 00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:08,710 88,000,000 project professionals globally by 20-30. 209 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,450 I mean, I mean, we're clearly nowhere near that. 210 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,330 So it's a challenge for everybody. 211 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:15,890 But I'm interested to know what the MOD, and maybe more 212 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:18,750 specifically the Army, are doing to make sure there's that real 213 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,530 healthy pipeline of talented project professionals coming 214 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,490 into the Army. So from a defence perspective, 215 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:28,630 we've got the project delivery fast stream, we've got 216 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,350 apprenticeship groups in terms of how you come into the 217 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,650 department and also options for when you're in the department 218 00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:39,230 and you can kind of join it. So defences, I'm doing a lot of 219 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,070 work in terms of what we're doing in in the army space, 220 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,930 we're trying to up our brand. So one of the things that I've 221 00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:49,130 pushed really, really hard since being imposed is how do we get 222 00:11:49,140 --> 00:11:53,330 out and you know publicise the the army of delivering some 223 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:56,590 really purposeful programmes that can make a real impact. 224 00:11:56,700 --> 00:12:00,090 And some of that is around engagement with the APM, go into 225 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:03,610 the conference in in Birmingham planning to go to to future 226 00:12:03,620 --> 00:12:07,020 conferences. Outreach to universities, but 227 00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:10,360 also getting the fundamentals right around how do we advertise 228 00:12:10,370 --> 00:12:13,140 our roles, How do we make sure that it's understandable. 229 00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:16,440 So a point you made earlier around and there'll be a lot of 230 00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:19,100 people out there that think that people in uniform deliver our 231 00:12:19,110 --> 00:12:22,080 programmes, it's absolutely not the case. 232 00:12:22,090 --> 00:12:25,790 So how do we make sure that we advertise in a way that kind of 233 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,280 draws people in and they understand kind of what the 234 00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:32,100 offer is and being really clear around what that training offer 235 00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:33,480 is? Because I think one of the 236 00:12:33,490 --> 00:12:37,580 things that defence do, and this isn't just about the army, is we 237 00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:40,660 invest in people and so we'll invest in people's training. 238 00:12:40,950 --> 00:12:43,480 So being really clear around what that. 239 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:47,540 That routine is and then linking it to the the IPA's functional 240 00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:51,880 strategy around accreditation. So it's it's really about making 241 00:12:51,890 --> 00:12:56,100 sure that we've got the professional identity within the 242 00:12:56,110 --> 00:12:58,820 project delivery profession and there's a really clear offer. 243 00:12:58,930 --> 00:13:01,450 And I think the other thing that's really important is, as 244 00:13:01,460 --> 00:13:03,960 you say, there's a big demand for project delivery 245 00:13:03,970 --> 00:13:07,170 professionals and there will be people out there that have got 246 00:13:07,180 --> 00:13:10,340 some training, got some experience in project delivery. 247 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:13,900 And there'll also be some people out there that don't have that 248 00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:17,300 project, every training or experience, but we'll have an 249 00:13:17,310 --> 00:13:19,880 awful lot of transferable skills and have an aptitude for 250 00:13:19,890 --> 00:13:21,820 learning. I think it's really important 251 00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:23,100 that we're tapping into those people. 252 00:13:23,170 --> 00:13:24,970 To bring them into the profession and help them 253 00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:28,410 understand how they can develop and kind of move forward into 254 00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:30,020 the profession into more senior roles. 255 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:32,340 Yeah. So I think this is a really 256 00:13:32,350 --> 00:13:33,630 clear message from you there, isn't it? 257 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,150 So it's almost like actually at any career stage, whether you 258 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,250 are starting out and you need that investor someone to invest 259 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:43,050 in you in the training side or whether you are more advanced in 260 00:13:43,060 --> 00:13:45,530 your career, maybe you're looking to switch sectors or 261 00:13:45,540 --> 00:13:48,400 switch professions. There's multiple entry points 262 00:13:48,410 --> 00:13:49,970 here, isn't it? So this is going to be a kind of 263 00:13:50,020 --> 00:13:53,170 a pretty broad spectrum of people that can enter the 264 00:13:53,180 --> 00:13:55,690 profession here. Absolutely. 265 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,610 Yeah absolutely we've we've got again I I can probably talk 266 00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:03,210 around kind of wider defence but certainly in the army roles that 267 00:14:03,220 --> 00:14:07,570 are kind of entry come and learn from the kind of day one week 1 268 00:14:07,740 --> 00:14:11,110 all the way up to come and be a senior responsible owner. 269 00:14:12,830 --> 00:14:15,960 At Association for Project Management, we know your most 270 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:18,060 important project is your career. 271 00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:21,580 But as a project manager, it's not always easy to make Project 272 00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:24,120 Me happen. That's where our membership can 273 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:26,600 help. We offer exclusive training, 274 00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:29,360 qualifications and learning resources to keep your 275 00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:33,300 development on track. Join our 35,000 members and 276 00:14:33,310 --> 00:14:35,800 become part of the only chartered membership body for 277 00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:40,990 the project profession. Open up yourfuture@apm.org.uk. 278 00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:46,920 So Chris, I know that you've recently been going through the 279 00:14:46,930 --> 00:14:50,290 process to achieve Chartered Project professional status your 280 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:52,990 yourself and I I think the results are have have come out 281 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,970 very recently and and I understand you were successful 282 00:14:55,980 --> 00:14:58,780 and you've joined our Stella list of Chartered Project 283 00:14:58,790 --> 00:15:01,000 Professional. So many many congratulations. 284 00:15:01,130 --> 00:15:03,150 Thank you. One of the things I wanted to 285 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,320 ask because you there will be other people in your 286 00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:07,850 organisation who are either going through that process to 287 00:15:07,860 --> 00:15:10,900 become chartered already or thinking about, you know, is 288 00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:12,720 this something that they should do? 289 00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:15,860 Have you got any advice or somebody who's fresh out of that 290 00:15:15,870 --> 00:15:18,930 process about any learnings that you've got from going through 291 00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:21,080 that or things that you wish you'd done differently maybe as 292 00:15:21,090 --> 00:15:22,620 you were preparing for that process? 293 00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:27,600 Yeah, so I followed route one, which I think is probably the 294 00:15:27,610 --> 00:15:30,250 middle of the road in terms of going through the process. 295 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:33,360 So I had to do a professional practise interview and I didn't 296 00:15:33,370 --> 00:15:35,800 have to do the technical stuff because I had a pre-existing 297 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:38,300 qualification. But I think it stands in terms 298 00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:41,810 of the preparation for that. There's a network of people that 299 00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:43,460 are going through at defence level. 300 00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:47,470 So using those people has been really important and having gone 301 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,340 through it slightly ahead of others, I think my advice has 302 00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:55,440 been don't over prepare for the interview part of of the 303 00:15:55,450 --> 00:15:57,580 process. It's one of those things that 304 00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:59,560 the knowledge is in there you've just got to get it out and 305 00:15:59,570 --> 00:16:02,670 coherent way and to over preparing is is is not. 306 00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:05,820 A good way of going because it's it's just questions around the 307 00:16:05,830 --> 00:16:07,620 experience that you've you've got already. 308 00:16:07,630 --> 00:16:12,040 So it's a challenging process, should be challenging, but also, 309 00:16:12,110 --> 00:16:14,570 you know, I think as I can say now, really rewarding when you 310 00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,360 get through the other side. I wonder if you might just talk 311 00:16:18,370 --> 00:16:20,810 a little bit about the overall approach to training and 312 00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:23,160 development for project professionals and and how that 313 00:16:23,170 --> 00:16:26,510 links in with with APMS Chartered Project Professional 314 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,670 status. Yeah. 315 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,140 So I think this is an area where defence are really strong and I 316 00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:37,070 think in terms of how we link into the IPA's accreditation 317 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,970 system, which the higher level of credit accreditation needs 318 00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:45,110 the chartership standard to be to be part of that. 319 00:16:45,180 --> 00:16:48,850 So we are certainly starting to push from a defence perspective. 320 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,600 There's been two cohorts of of about 30 senior leaders just 321 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,730 gone through a pilot process across the fence that were 322 00:16:56,740 --> 00:16:58,870 supported through the charter journey. 323 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:01,790 I'm now starting to think about how we do that for the Army 324 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,530 again a senior cohort within the Army to push through that the 325 00:17:05,540 --> 00:17:09,200 the Chartered standard. Because as it links to the 326 00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:12,740 defence and then onward into wider government process and 327 00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:15,200 thinking we're starting to push more people through the 328 00:17:15,210 --> 00:17:17,700 chartered route. And I think in terms of kind of 329 00:17:17,770 --> 00:17:21,040 wider training, I think it's not just about going on training 330 00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:23,680 courses. There's also the the Seventy 331 00:17:23,690 --> 00:17:27,000 2010. So experience mentoring and kind 332 00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:30,000 of formal training and making sure that breakdown is really 333 00:17:30,010 --> 00:17:32,740 clear. Because we find a lot of people 334 00:17:32,750 --> 00:17:36,520 that kind of go on a course and come back and say I'm now an 335 00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:39,050 expert in risk management because I've done the risk 336 00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:41,030 management course. What they mean is they've done 337 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,140 the risk management course. They need to learn and and get 338 00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:44,610 the experience of being a risk manager. 339 00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:48,720 So in terms of chartership then that's all to do with how it 340 00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:51,260 links him with the IPA, the infrastructure and project 341 00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:54,280 authorities expectations and and actually that's something that's 342 00:17:54,290 --> 00:17:55,980 happening cross government. So. 343 00:17:56,030 --> 00:17:59,720 So getting that chartership is is also a passport to other 344 00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:02,880 public sector roles and private sector roles of course, and vice 345 00:18:02,890 --> 00:18:05,160 versa those who've already got chartership elsewhere. 346 00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:08,890 That could be really attractive in terms of helping somebody to 347 00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:11,040 come and join your team and add value at at the right level. 348 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:14,410 Absolutely. So I think I think it's the 349 00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:17,630 first time that we've now got a really clear understanding of 350 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,920 how we can read across as you say not just other government 351 00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:25,610 departments but also into kind of the wider sectors that 352 00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:28,200 support us and people coming in. So. 353 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:30,800 So I think the the chartered standard is the thing that we're 354 00:18:30,810 --> 00:18:33,530 going to start to ask people to kind of demonstrate or be 355 00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:36,870 willing to work towards because that's the that's the common 356 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,110 thread through all of the things that would be as part of a job. 357 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:43,230 So if you're outside of of government and someone said be 358 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,490 accredited to level acts, they won't understand that if we ask 359 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,930 someone to be at the chartered standard level and we're willing 360 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:52,360 to work towards. That's really understandable, 361 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,690 understandable across the across the profession. 362 00:18:56,340 --> 00:19:00,190 One of my own insights into into the kind of maturity of the 363 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,450 project profession more broadly, I suppose, is how people 364 00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:06,110 identify with the professional, with the role they do. 365 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,170 So if I talk to people in very well established professions, I 366 00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:10,480 I don't know. Um. 367 00:19:11,230 --> 00:19:13,220 A chartered engineer, for example. 368 00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:15,970 And I. And I say to them, you know 369 00:19:15,980 --> 00:19:16,800 what? What do you know? 370 00:19:16,810 --> 00:19:18,170 What do you do? What's your role? 371 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:21,660 They will say I'm an engineer and I work for the British Army, 372 00:19:21,670 --> 00:19:24,070 for example. But sometimes when they're 373 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,960 project professionals, they identify more with the 374 00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:29,220 organisation before they do with their profession. 375 00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:32,920 So you know, they'll say I'm a project manager and I work for, 376 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:35,680 you know, the National Health Service or you see what I mean? 377 00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:39,180 I think it's quite interesting. It's it's an interesting 378 00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:41,780 indicator I suppose, of the maturity of the sector and for 379 00:19:41,790 --> 00:19:44,590 me I'll be really excited the day when you ask somebody what 380 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,780 they do and they say I'm a chartered project professional 381 00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:48,940 and I work for the British Army, for example, that would be 382 00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:50,440 really exciting. Yeah. 383 00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:52,240 No, it's interesting. It's one of the conversations 384 00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:55,500 that we've had in the head of profession space around, you 385 00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:57,440 know, similar to what you just said, how do you introduce 386 00:19:57,450 --> 00:20:00,060 yourself at a cocktail party? So someone says, he said what do 387 00:20:00,070 --> 00:20:02,700 you do? We're trying to push to say 388 00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:04,740 we're project delivery professionals. 389 00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:08,680 It just it happens we work in the Army Navy, so it's trying to 390 00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:11,730 push that kind of identity and that's part of our functional 391 00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:14,020 strategy. So part of that is how do we 392 00:20:14,030 --> 00:20:17,060 make sure that people kind of understand us against as you 393 00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:19,700 said? Some other the other professions 394 00:20:19,710 --> 00:20:22,250 within defence. If people were to be asked, it 395 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:24,790 would be around the finance profession, the commercial 396 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,310 profession really established long term professions, projects, 397 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,950 really professional, still in its infancy. 398 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,390 Sometimes I I I think of think of that as a real challenge for 399 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,750 us. But I think as with all of these 400 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,690 challenges there are also opportunities because because we 401 00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,790 don't have a very well worn path it means we can take the path 402 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,370 where it where it needs to go where it's actually trying to 403 00:20:46,380 --> 00:20:49,400 change some of these other professions who are very well 404 00:20:49,410 --> 00:20:50,960 established. That's like trying to say and a 405 00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:53,410 super tanker you know it'll take a long long time. 406 00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:56,720 So I'm I'm always interested to watch you know over the next 10 407 00:20:56,730 --> 00:21:01,050 or 20 years um how the different professions will have matured 408 00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:05,510 and evolved over over that time. What about your role and and 409 00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:08,760 portfolio management within the MO D more broadly, Do you think 410 00:21:08,770 --> 00:21:11,770 that's going to go through a a big evolution over the next 10 411 00:21:11,780 --> 00:21:12,790 years? Is there going to be a lot of 412 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,730 change? What do you think? 413 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,950 So I think there will be, I think portfolio management being 414 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,050 defence has been through a journey already. 415 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,470 I see portfolio management continue to be an integral part 416 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,790 of the kind of defence procurement because it provides 417 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,810 that kind of P3M conscience to senior leaders. 418 00:21:30,820 --> 00:21:34,790 So if you make one decision, how does that impact another? 419 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,870 So I think that's the really kind of important thing that 420 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,690 portfolio manager management does, especially in a in an 421 00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:44,370 environment where the army will be making some decisions as will 422 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,840 the Navy, the RAF and all the others. 423 00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:48,460 So they're all interlinked. So portfolio management becomes 424 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:51,750 a really key role in that kind of bringing it to a defence 425 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,710 level and being consistent And I think you know really driving 426 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,240 decisions but also efficiencies in terms of how do we use some 427 00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:00,520 of the things that kind of sit at that portfolio level, say 428 00:22:00,590 --> 00:22:02,380 category management is one of the things. 429 00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:05,680 So how do we make sure that we're doing the right things 430 00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:08,530 properly, which I guess is a bit of a strap line from the kind of 431 00:22:08,540 --> 00:22:13,300 portfolio management doctrine? We've managed to get through a 432 00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:16,800 whole conversation, Chris, and we haven't talked at all about 433 00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:20,440 artificial intelligence and digitalization and you know the 434 00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:22,800 the conversations that are happening in every organisation 435 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,020 all around the country right now. 436 00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:28,640 What what's your take on on on on all things digital and AI 437 00:22:28,650 --> 00:22:31,060 opportunity or threat? What's your assessment? 438 00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:35,860 So I think as with any any of these sorts of things there's a 439 00:22:35,870 --> 00:22:38,760 huge opportunity. But what comes with that is a a 440 00:22:38,770 --> 00:22:40,940 a threat as we always kind of see. 441 00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:45,380 I think you you kind of you see and and hear and you know pick 442 00:22:45,390 --> 00:22:49,680 up on conversations where you know people see a I as as a 443 00:22:49,690 --> 00:22:51,480 threat. And I think I've I've read lots 444 00:22:51,490 --> 00:22:55,300 of things recently where it talks about AI won't replace 445 00:22:55,310 --> 00:22:57,940 people. People use an AI will be the 446 00:22:57,950 --> 00:22:59,760 ones that replace the people that that don't. 447 00:22:59,770 --> 00:23:03,800 So I think there's a huge opportunity especially in an 448 00:23:03,810 --> 00:23:09,250 organisation that has a huge amount of data as defence do and 449 00:23:09,260 --> 00:23:12,300 that's that's varied in its quality and I think that's 450 00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:15,890 another threat in terms of you know how good is the quality of 451 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,570 the data that we're using. But overall I think it's a it's 452 00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:22,400 a huge opportunity. I've seen some of the work 453 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:27,140 that's been going on in in the central centre of of the defence 454 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:32,500 department and it's it's huge it, it will allow us to again 455 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:36,480 make those decisions at a portfolio level with a lot more 456 00:23:36,490 --> 00:23:39,260 confidence I think. On balance, I think you signed 457 00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:42,820 in quite optimistic about AI about the opportunities. 458 00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:45,600 Obviously you've identified some of the threats there as well. 459 00:23:45,610 --> 00:23:48,700 Do you think we should all be opportunistic as well and and 460 00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:51,310 positive? I think it was anything as big 461 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,780 as this I think you need, you definitely need those kind of 462 00:23:54,790 --> 00:23:58,930 people that are more cautious I guess in in any kind of change 463 00:23:59,010 --> 00:24:01,530 perhaps my brains going back to some of the things that I've 464 00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:04,820 learned through my career, you need those people that say Are 465 00:24:04,830 --> 00:24:07,980 you sure, will it work, are we going down the right path. 466 00:24:08,050 --> 00:24:10,350 But I think it's also one of those things with the way that 467 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,980 the world is going in terms of technology, it feels like 468 00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:15,280 something that's going to happen. 469 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:19,160 And I guess my outlook on things are embrace it because I think 470 00:24:19,170 --> 00:24:22,900 it's inevitable, but make sure that whilst kind of embracing it 471 00:24:22,910 --> 00:24:25,780 that I can continue to kind of challenge to make sure that it 472 00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:30,270 is, is the right way to go. We've got people who've been 473 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,260 listening to this who are right at the beginning of their 474 00:24:32,270 --> 00:24:34,000 career. Maybe they're already in the 475 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:38,070 project profession and they're just they they don't know what 476 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,460 things they should be doing to get on and really get on in 477 00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:42,340 their career. Maybe they're thinking about 478 00:24:42,350 --> 00:24:46,560 entering the project management profession and aren't quite sure 479 00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:49,740 where's a good place to start. What what advice would you give 480 00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:53,140 to them based on your obviously excellent career journey that's 481 00:24:53,150 --> 00:24:54,420 got you into this brilliant role. 482 00:24:55,130 --> 00:24:58,480 So again I think kind of rule of three. 483 00:24:58,490 --> 00:25:01,730 I think the first one would be be curious and challenge. 484 00:25:01,810 --> 00:25:05,340 So that's about challenging the people around you and yourself 485 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:09,260 and kind of ask those questions that you perhaps think other 486 00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:12,600 people aren't or or are not The right questions I think are 487 00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:14,540 really really important. One is don't be afraid of 488 00:25:14,550 --> 00:25:16,560 failure. I think a lot of people see 489 00:25:16,570 --> 00:25:19,760 failure as a a negative and this might be an odd thing to to say 490 00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:22,980 out loud. But I think in my experience I 491 00:25:22,990 --> 00:25:26,050 think the things that I've learnt and the best lessons that 492 00:25:26,060 --> 00:25:28,320 I've learned have been through things haven't gone well. 493 00:25:28,530 --> 00:25:32,520 And I think the third thing which I see a lot through, I 494 00:25:32,530 --> 00:25:35,660 guess my my day job, but also the head of professional or is 495 00:25:35,670 --> 00:25:39,800 make sure you get the right level of balance between going 496 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:42,120 on training courses and getting experience. 497 00:25:42,210 --> 00:25:45,020 And I think that's a really important thing to to kind of 498 00:25:45,030 --> 00:25:48,930 take away is linking back to the second point experiences, the 499 00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:50,610 thing that tends to teach you the most. 500 00:25:52,190 --> 00:25:55,440 Chris, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the podcast 501 00:25:55,450 --> 00:25:57,560 today. Thank you so much for your time. 502 00:25:57,690 --> 00:26:00,160 I hope people have got a lot from listening to that. 503 00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:04,100 And I hope those people who have thought about but maybe not 504 00:26:04,110 --> 00:26:07,980 acted on, but potential project career within the Army or indeed 505 00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:11,640 the mod more broadly will pick up the mantle now and and and 506 00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:14,510 start looking at the the job sites and thinking about coming 507 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,240 to join what what's on like some really exciting projects that 508 00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:19,640 are going on that. So, Chris, thank you very much. 509 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,960 Thank you, Adam. Brilliant conversation. 510 00:26:28,930 --> 00:26:31,800 Thank you for joining us for this episode of the APM Podcast. 511 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:35,350 If you enjoyed it, don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review 512 00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:37,460 or why not, contact us with your feedback at 513 00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:43,450 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. For more information on APM, 514 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,810 including the pathway to Chartered Project professional 515 00:26:45,820 --> 00:26:48,880 status, visit APM ORG UK.