Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
the project profession. My name is Emma divita and I'm
the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host
today. I'm speaking to Nico, Vincent
subsea project manager of the endurance, 22 Expedition that on
the 5th of March this year. Found the wreck of endurance sir
Ernest Shackleton Owens ship which sank off the coast of
Antarctica hundred and seven years ago.
The wreckage was discovered at a depth of three thousand and
eight meters around for miles south of where it was reported
to have been lost by frankerz endurance's captain in 1915
endurance. 22, set off from Cape Town in February, this year,
with a team of 63 people, plus the crew aboard, the South
African Icebreaker, a glass. To the Expedition has reportedly
cost around 7.6 million pounds. And this podcast, Snicker
explains how the project team used to sob Sabretooth hybrid
underwater search vehicles to find the Shipwreck.
One of the most complex subsea projects ever undertaken.
He spent 30 years recovering, deep-sea wrecks, and gives us
his project management insights. And what it takes to prepare for
a once-in-a-lifetime project like this, how it feels to see
such a piece of history and the lessons he takes away from the
successful project. Welcome Nico.
Thank you for giving us your time, really interested in
finding out more about endurance. 22, would you like to
start by giving us an overview of the project?
What its mission was the goals deliverables.
Milestones, how long you've been working on this?
The purpose of endurance. 22 was to discover the wreck of the
endurance lost in 1915 by the Expedition led by Sir, Ernest
Shackleton. And then to deliver a full
survey of the wreck to roll all science analyzes for for the
next decades because it's so much complicated to go there.
Can you tell us where it where it is so rich?
So, it's in the Antarctic, but can you describe the condition
sir? It's is in them where they'll
see, which is one of the most complicated see of the world,
because there is a lot of highs see highs on this area, and they
are quite unpredictable. And this is something which have
been generated a lot of issue by the way.
So which generate, the reason why this wreck was the most
complicated to find not because she was really lost, but the
access to the area is so, so, so complicated.
So I have been in charge to lead all operation as soon as the
vessel arrived on site and the trust asked to join cheers.
The Expedition leader to lead above the surface and me to
drive all operation Under the Sea.
However, to run operation plan. I was obliged to control surface
support as well. So it was including this so
navigation, and the copter flight plan.
I scam strategy and all of the Quest.
I like science and major for example, because the media and
education was quite important for this project, the project
primary task. As I just mentioned, was to look
at the endurance. But as the rack is protected by
the Antarctic treaty, we have been forbidden to touch
anything, so we needed to produce.
I have a solution survey of the rack to allow science and
archaeologists to produce science report.
The project schedule for me started in February 20, 19.
When the previous expedition in Los the auv, an autonomous
underwater vehicle own site. And I have been a immediately
contacted to bit new solution. So over two years has suggested
some option and that finally convinced me to point as project
manager on August 20, So the first step has been to launch
the manufacturing of the subtools, the auv.
Yeah. Tell us more about the
saber-tooth. Well this happens to us is the
VAC or which is about to join 3,000 meters.
It's an auv which is manufactured, by Sub in Sweden
and the main reason why we choose that vehicle.
It's because it's quite a Still one, it might be tasered or not.
And usually this kind of vehicle is fully autonomous and flying
fully autonomous underwater. But for this project, we asked
to use a Taser at one, because this is a lesson learned from
2019, which was to keep a permanent control and it
anticipate, emergency ascent and incident.
And that's really a game changer on the highs.
So you started work on this project three years ago, in the
wake of a previous attempt to ReDiscover endurance.
So can you explain just give an overview of do three years, what
does that involve? So imagine I heard there were
trials in France for the technology like how much I
imagine 90% of that time was actually preparing.
Yeah. Itís been a lot a long way
because, um, I started to build the back on in September 20 and
I led the manufacturing from scratch up to up to September
21. It, it was almost a year, but as
well in December 20, I started to build as well.
The high scam solution because it has tasked to be ready for
any option compatible with any condition of ice.
We are not sure of what kind of eyes we may face.
So we were not sure that we may access to the area to the field
where the vessel so solution using ice Camp was ready.
Then spring, 21. I started to assembly all
procedures to complete full scope of work because scope of
work has to be ready for six months before the operation.
It was ready for August 21. And in September 21, we started
we started Yeah, the f80 if it is of the vehicle and the
extended trials because we got so much better, so much sensors
on the back, all that we ask at extended trials, then we came in
France as you just mentioned and act about 21 to conductive sea
trials. The purpose of the deep sea
trials was to send vehicle at the maximum depth that we would
have on the field and be ready to have anticipate any failure
that the vacuum has suffered. And finally we got ice ice
operation simulations in October 21 as well.
We tried to deploy ice camp on honest entity guys.
It has been quite fun and we as well deploy our launch and
Recovery ice launch and recovery system overall barge to look, if
we are able to launch the God because you have to keep in mind
that to reduce time to drill the eyes, which might be up to 5 m
sickness and make the decision to build a huge drill Holger
that we built from scratch as well and to reduce Time, Lord
willing, we make the decision to launch the vehicle vertically.
So you have to imagine that we have a card which is the size
and the weight of your own car and we got the and all
positives. What to move it up to two men,
two meters from the ground. Move it It vertically and launch
it through 5 m, i sickness. So all of these require a lot of
engineering and then we have to recover it and the opposite way,
if you see my point. So, finally make all these
trials and we send all equipment in, in South Africa, in December
21, mobilizing in January 22 in South Africa.
In Cape Town and left, early, February 22.
And lest had that covid-19 has been a real interference on this
plan mainly on shipment and procurement which because Global
shortage was everywhere. So it's generated so much so
much interference too many where each each project must be so
unique and so rare. And so complex that you have to
come with an open mind that that can find Creative Solutions or
be inevitable. Or I guess you have to have that
mindset that approach to work on a project like this.
Absolutely. And Angeles, 22 is a good
example of that. I spent a year to build
procedures scope of work. That's plan survey planning
deployment on nice helicopter. Flight plans time Computing
schedules. And finally the reason why I
wasn't bored is because we were all open that.
Nothing will be run as expected the the condition, the unfilled,
mental condition on site, are so complicated that you cannot
anticipate all. All all scenarios.
Even if you have many ideas or what you will suffer if I miss
is that wall. Yeah, and you cannot anticipate
everything and it has been talking to reason why I have
been on board because usually on the substantive trees, a project
manager, stay on the office and you have a straight link with
what we call the Rapture manager and the offshore manager is just
make the make the work of shore here and the complexity of the
variables that we faced met obligations that I was on board.
So as I like to say, I was walking with my option manager
which were on the next door, but as I like to say, I was still
Huli Huli the plan and it was run the plan.
Yeah. But so okay and when you I'm
interested because you must have had a team that reported to you,
how big was that team? Or was it just a couple of
people find you once 22? We were 1660.
Okay. See you leading a team of 16?
How do you create a team around you?
For this kind of project that is cohesive that can react to To
the unexpected. Is there any particular?
So I guess what I met trying to understand is how do you lead a
project team that has to be inevitable?
That has to think on its feet that has to deal with the
unexpected. The teams that I chosen was
chosen for several reasons. The first one is their skills.
Of course, we got the requirement to have several
different skills for these people, but in editions, I walk
with the same kind of people since quite a long time almost
20 years. And the reason of that is that
because we have some Relationship, which is extremely
strong each other, and all these people, they are aware, and they
are and this is a normal way for them to work on this kind of
project where you have to be very, very close each other.
And the consequence of that is that most of these people are
like a family. And, and this is a culture which
is quite important for us. Because, usually again on the
subject, this tree also, So expertise really disconnected
from from each other. And people are other strong
task, very important task and they do not look at what the
hoses to on when you are doing project like this.
This is the opposite. People have to be very strong
Connections in between each other and the leadership is
switching from a guy to the other according the expertise.
But whatever is the walk. Everybody is walking by hands.
Okay, so that means that At your boss of the morning because you
drive, you drive an auv, be can become your, your support on the
afternoon because you do electronics.
So, and this is with that way. Something that allowed me to
build a very, very strong, strong connection between
people. And even if our chain of command
is quite strong, the people have a lot of freedom inside the team
because they know that when we record the expertise they will
have three hands. So so that's pretty thing.
A very very strong relationship. Okay.
Are you a trained project manager?
Do you have project management? Qualifications, that's a good
question and the answer is no, I thought I thought that might be.
So have you how have you learnt the project management side of
things? I started my career in the
French company called Comics which at that time was the world
leader in the steps industry and most efficient in oil and gas
and the culture of the end of the company was to look at each
people individually and purge them on their level of
expertise. Apparently, I got some leading
skills immediately, which have been detect and I have been
pushed on 29 and I followed the internal training in the company
to step after step. Okay?
And then the company has been absorbed by another group, and
the group became Higher, and Higher, and Higher and corn.
Now, sub c 7, which is one of the most important subsequent
director of the world. So you learn, you learn from the
company and from the project and that it has been my path.
And I must admit, I never follow any training and never follow
any. Educational for that.
I have been always learning on my own project after project and
what have you been your biggest lessons are from about project
management, how to manage projects.
I think that most fishing on the project that I do, because which
is, which are unusual. No special one, you have to keep
what, what is the final goal? And when you know what is the
final goal, you have to involve your team to this final goal and
you have to to drive them to have to keep in mind this final
goal and on their own level of expertise, which is all part of
the project and you must always keep in mind and always be
extremely versatile to absorb any, an expectation that you
have to manage to keep that goal.
I say you that because especially project can be quite
different. For example, I am consultant
from from the French investigation for any aircraft
incident in car deep water. Okay?
When you have this kind of jobs is extremely different than
searching the endurance or searching submarine for Navy's,
because my team phone as well, the Hassan one, Fans summer in
Me. Now from the French navy which
has been lost since 1968. And when you focus on this kind
of project, the expectation of the client for my sis with might
be quite different. So the to keep the goal is quite
important actually because you give us an idea of what it was
like to be on deck and and and how you what's it like to be in
a project team at such Close Quarters and under such
pressure. What's that noise?
Like as a project leader to manage.
And what are the? What are the challenges?
Advantage, when you walk with Rick on people, is that you knew
you knew them. They know you went as well as,
you know, each other. That's a low-wing to have
automatic balance that you do not have to manage, okay?
So, and when you are in difficult, constraint, as you
just mentioned, which is what that we live all together during
months and months, which is Is something normal for us because
we do that or all the year. But for underwent, 22, in
addition, we were on an icebreaker.
And we were on a product area which is quite unusual for us.
So we have been obliged to adapt herself to the other people.
For example, we got a lot of scientists on board, the vessel
how many people on the vessel the Expedition team was 65.
And the crew 45 also. 663 not 65 and subsea Department was 16 but
we got as well a full team of any copter pilot and technician.
We got a full science team which conducted additional science in
parallel of inseam ups with our operations and we got as well as
a full media team which make a lot of Things to build a
documentary, all of these have to have to be layer on top of
what we do usually. So here the challenge was to
manage your own usual activities with all these people for who is
not something normal. And, and it's from time to time
this is generated quite difference is because these
people, the come up short one or two times per year as the it, we
are offshore the full year so like the crew.
And so we have to adapt all ourselves to work together.
But the life on board is quite between each other.
It's quite something that we are ready for.
We run, watch of 12 hours on 12 hours of for example.
Okay? So the full team is organized to
work 12 hours per day on the Undone an entrance, 22.
Most of the guy made a huge over time, not because only we got
issues the first days, but because the loved what they do.
Okay, so even if we Face several equipment failure, even if we
have an incident, even if it's not working properly, even if
it's hard, even if they are cold, if you are able to work on
something, which is so much exciting attractive.
People respond on their own most specially if they like each
other. I'm not sure if it is replying
to the your initial question. No, this is all very interesting
because you will highly motivated.
I think actually the obvious question to ask is, when you
first found the wreck, what did can you talk us through?
What it was like to actually to see it and was it what you
imagined or what did it feel like we're searching the
DirectBuy, side-scan sonar. It's a device which looking at
the seabed by an acoustic purse, each side, each side of the
vehicle. So it's reproducing.
A cbet imagery which is equal for this project at almost two
mice, a Channel of almost 1, nautical miles.
And on this images you can recognize rocks, sand mud,
Right. So it's quite detailed.
Yeah. And you need very, very skilled
people to, to analyze images because this is It's.
So now imagine it's not video. Let me explain its like if
you're flying on an aircraft on the, on the desert, okay?
And with the the sun which coming down, you can find what
is high of the of the dunes, thanks to the length of the
Shadow. Okay?
That's exactly the same that except that we Do not using
light, but, but Acoustics. So it's with shadows and legs of
Shadows. That you may say, if you are
find a wreck or rock or something else here on entrance
22, the first heat give it gave us a lot of Joy's many as
because it was so close to the captain Worsley put initial
position but finally it was a new debris and not the full ship
full vessel on the Last two. Everybody was extremely excited
the but unfortunately it was a deception because just the a
breeze on the rag. So when we found the wreck on
the second heat, I pressurize the team to stay very concerned,
right? Very professional and very
quiet. So I said to them, I want
everybody to some quiet. Until we have not only a sauna
heat, but visual confirmation on the video camera because you
have to fly with the vehicle. All come back, make a
circumcision, a hint in sana'a, resolution.
And then, finally, come back with to fly on it for the video
shorting. So we got at least two hours
between the 1st and a heat and the video confirmation Cinema,
spend slice two hours of your life.
Probably, I was absolutely. But the guys, the guys was
absolutely sure. Yeah.
I got a son, an analyst on my side And this sauna analyst is
maybe one of the top five in the world in sana'a analyzing and I
was looking in his eyes and he smiled.
So I was quite sure, but when we got the first video shooting
footage, it was an accomplishment in the and great
relief and believe me, we saw the wreck, maybe 22 seconds and
I said, okay go up. And then but the reason why is
that we were pushing the batteries, I was asking how UV
saboteurs pie that I want to see the with the camera I want to
end. It was already saying I'm low
batteries, I'm low batteries, I'm low batteries.
So the first first footage was very, very short.
But it was absolutely absolutely amazing how into the wreck.
Could you go, could you just see in terms of the video, just the
outside, or could you go right into the wreck?
Find you a nice, 22, our package of payload including cameras was
not allowing to look inside. However, we got four kids, still
camera geography and said, which will hollowing to produce.
Absolutely wonderful. As 3D model like a
photogrametry. In addition we got laser leader
which will allow us to have photogrammetry, which we have
one millimeter resolution, but to going inside the rack, we
will need to come back with extra devising.
It's a, is that a plan? Can you do that?
Is that something that might happen?
Well, plenty people asking me the question already and my
answer is yes, I have Plan. So I try to always have a plan
you know because that's that's a purpose and to come back on
project management and Isis is when you face difficulties, you
have in your brain to have already two or three plants when
we fall for the next issue. I personally would have been the
highs and the lows. So I guess by Lowe's I mean the
probably maybe the most stressful times or the hardest
times of working on endurance. 22 eyes, of course, the
discovery lows as a very long list of you.
An extra fiver you could do a part two.
Yes it's days. Was a stressful time.
Okay. You have to keep in mind that
the previous team lost the vacuole after two, Dives.
Okay, so my goal was not only to find engines but to come back
with my vehicle. Okay, we got a team agencia,
sent over 32 Dives but seeing the vehicle back on Deck.
After last last dive with full scope accomplished, has been an
extremely good time, believe me. It has been Most most I stand
for me because it was an achievement.
We made it. Okay, and we made it without
failure. So for me, frankly, the
discovery is I point, but complete job with everything on
board without any incident and with all people in good in good
health has been very good as well and more specially because
with, they faced the worst condition the Worst condition.
You have to imagine that we got - 22 with 35 knots of wind,
which is equivalent of minus 40 degrees.
The equipment was freezing on Deck, the people was absolutely
freezing on day. They never say nothing.
They they accomplished a huge great work.
And I am very proud about them and you must imagine that was so
cold. General so much issue that we
call Guys from the highest camp and they help us to build tent
on vessel back deck with with eater with eater on it to keep
our equipment. Warm enough to die.
For so why then was freezing and we got bigger issues, and we
spending time to repair before dive.
It has been extremely complicated.
So the the people achievement is huge.
What? What have been the lessons that
you've learned from this mission that you will then apply to
other other projects that you work on.
Against a nice, a lot of listeners.
The main reason is that it has been a world record.
The seabed survey over fixed location under under drifting
highs is a world record. We invent almost everything from
scratch. So the listen earn over polar
environment is a huge list, huge one, and nobody made that before
you have to keep in mind that until now people doing a UV on
The highs was launching an opponent, okay?
And got a recovery Point already, prepare its and that's
the reason why the Canadian people are what we call on this.
But on our side we were launching on the position, which
is optimized to cover a fixed location and then we drift with
ice. So, the recovery point was
unknown, we're not able to anticipate where we will recover
the vehicle and Time to time. We are up 24, nautical miles
from the launch point and all of this to make it worked as been
invent. And the listen learn from this
is absolutely huge. And the consequence is on,
listen on the project management is as well.
Extremely huge affair with one project management lesson that
you would want to share what that was because you've been
doing this for 30 years. And still, you're learning,
still you're learning about how to run, On projects like this
manage lead is. So is there one lesson in
particular Springs to mind? I need to remember the warning
set by. So let's check it in himself.
He said and difficulties are just things to overcome after
all. Have you ever met a challenge
that? Just he thought this is.
I can't, I just just no way around this.
I think 122, as soon as we arrived a nice, I was sure that
helicopter on the primeknit was impossible and I spent a lot of
time and work on this and, but as soon as we the Icebreaker
start to arrived on ice and stood straight away, that
helicopter deployment was too much Complicated by the reason
that the environmental condition was not allowing the volume of
flight that I expected to Carly Camp so that must have been a
big blow. Well, I keep fingers crossed
that the condition will allow us to join the field with a vest
on. And and I came immediately to
the, to the conclusion that even if we spent a lot of time
procedures than and and money to be ready to deploy from highs
deploying, from my students covers, younger ones would be
almost impossible by lack of time.
I'm because to install a camp, you have to understand that the
vehicle weight. Only the vehicle weight is one
point seven tons, okay? And the, and the initial maximum
capabilities of a cargo Flight of the a copter was 1.5 tons.
So I was obliged to install nice.
Certain ton of equipments to manage this vehicle, plus the
people, plus the safety, plus the consumable, and when you,
you had hold of this The five plan was so much complicated
that aircraft was on here, almost 24 hours seven and when
we arrive on site, the first thing that the pilot said that,
sorry guys, but I would maybe fly three to seven hours per day
maximum. So, this this has been a
disappointment because it was too complicated.
So, did you have a plan B for that?
Or did, how did you then sort resolve this?
Because that That's a big part of the plan, that's now out the
window. We optimized the ship ads plasma
or nice And it has been quite. It has been quite a success and
we anticipated to have a team from Germany from the company.
Driftin noise, which came on board with satellite radar
images and and I stood forecast, okay?
And this data has been the real game changer which are allowing
us to be extremely efficient on the ship movement.
And we work very, very close with the Germans guys and and
the ship ice Pilot. We for one of the first time of
his career, got access to this very accurate data and it's
allowing us to optimize the ship movement, to be, always where we
need to be and how to go to the next point.
And that is something which is quite important to explain.
Nice condition. If you want to go to on point A
to point B, you can have a straight line on Ice.
You have to find a channel between sea ice, which might be
quite deep which which is best route to arrive where you need
to go. So it has been extremely,
extremely successful and Ice condition plus.
All this works, which have been in placed over the project
management as the lowing of the Very, very good efficiency.
What a fantastic way to end the podcast.
I want to thank you again for your time and congratulations on
the success of the project. Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you so much. Thanks again to Nicole for
joining us and to you for listening to this episode of the
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