1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,560 And on the desk is a red button. A big red button. 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:06,840 Yeah, a big red button. It does exactly what you expect. 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,000 Emergency stop. Normal abort So. 4 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,400 Yeah. So you you hit that and it 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,400 basically shuts the engine down, stops it from from from. 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,520 Falling. I really want to hit that button 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:17,440 away. You can. 8 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,960 You can hit it now. It's not going to do anything if 9 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,040 you hit it now. Can I? 10 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,960 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's quite satisfying. 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,400 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,440 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,120 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,160 this podcast. I travelled to Westcott in 15 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,560 Buckinghamshire to meet the team at Namo Space who welcome 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,920 propulsion systems to the space, rocket engines and thrusters. 17 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,520 They're cutting edge products are used on International Space 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,160 programmes, whether they're satellites or missions to the 19 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,480 Moon or Mars. The business is growing rapidly 20 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,480 with around 100 people and 12 project professionals. 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,480 The opportunity for growth in the space industry is now clear 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,720 and present, Namos Space vice president Rob Selby confidently 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,840 told me. But Namos UK has been around in 24 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:18,880 one form or another for a very long time. 25 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,640 It celebrates its 80th birthday in 2026 and the Saito visit is a 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,760 former World War 2 airfield that after the war became the UK 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,560 Centre for Rocket Science for the Ministry of Defence. 28 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,960 When I visited the site on the drizzly July day, the grounds 29 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:38,000 were eerily quiet and sparsely dotted with old government 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,800 buildings, new offices, stacked shipping containers used for 31 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,160 storage and enough blown up concrete monolith blocks to give 32 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,440 the place a post apocalyptic flavour. 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,720 Open the door to Namo's offices, however, and you quickly soak up 34 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,760 a feeling of quiet energy and total dedication. 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,040 It's here I meet Rob Selby, Namo's energetic Vice President 36 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,960 for Space, who overseas the work done here, and I began by asking 37 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,160 him how he ended up working in space. 38 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:11,960 Well, not literally. I started in the aerospace 39 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,360 industry designing flight control systems for aircraft by 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,960 civil and military. When I started my journey as an 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,520 engineer, I was really interested in just finding 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,200 difficult roblems to solve, and that's really kind of lights my 43 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,160 fire. So complexity. 44 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,720 Yeah, so from a kid I used to take every toy I had a part and 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,320 try and make it better. Sometimes I work people. 46 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,760 Sometimes it works, sometimes I have bits leftover and it never 47 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,920 worked again. But that early learning ground 48 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:44,360 caused me to get into the position where I wanted to 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,200 understand problems very well, understand how to fix some of 50 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,360 the most difficult issues. And what better place to do that 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,160 in the space industry where you are solving some of the most 52 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,760 challenging problems both technically and dealing with the 53 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,760 environment of space as well is a is a substantial challenge 54 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,160 because you can't go and fix anything. 55 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,800 So it's all about getting it right on the ground first time 56 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,480 and doing that in the most effective way. 57 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,280 Do you enjoy that kind of stress? 58 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,200 Strangely, I do, yes. I've always been someone who's 59 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,200 lived in quite a high stress environment. 60 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,880 I'd like to create that pressure on myself to come up with 61 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,560 answers and to drive a team to do that. 62 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,680 So it's always been the same. It's just something that's that 63 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,400 kind of motivates me, him. Is is that so you? 64 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,960 It sounds so you like that sense of adrenaline and urgency in a 65 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,280 project, but how do you marry that with something that 66 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,600 inevitably is quite long term? It's a really good question. 67 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:42,800 I would say that with every product we produce, there is 68 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,840 incremental changes that is necessary to achieve the end 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,720 goal. So a lot of that creating that, 70 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,160 that pressure that to drive us to achieve the, the success is 71 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,480 really breaking a problem down into the smaller pieces and 72 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,440 driving each one of those different elements. 73 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,560 Something that we do here a lot in Mauk because some of our 74 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,800 projects are ten, 11-12 years longing in in gestation. 75 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,520 But you've got to break it down. You've got to, you've got to 76 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,640 find out the key pieces that you need to understand and resolve 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,120 today that allows you to learn the lessons to go and design 78 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,800 that new rocket engine that you need to design to go and meet a 79 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,640 mission requirement. And for me, that's a huge part 80 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,640 of how you do the project management approach. 81 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,000 Conventionally, this business has been a waterfall management 82 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,520 type of company, a project management company, and that 83 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,000 worked quite well. But we're migrating a lot more 84 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,760 to using more agile systems in our project management and 85 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,960 that's going to increase a lot of that is down to wanting to do 86 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,560 much more rapid development cycles. 87 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,200 So. Rapid testing. 88 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,280 Rapid testing, rapid development and this is part of where the 89 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,200 face of the space industry is changing. 90 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:50,200 Yes. How many more? 91 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,440 It's been brought around a little bit by the successor 92 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,920 companies such as SpaceX, which show how you can develop faster, 93 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,440 quicker and kind of develop faster. 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,480 Make it break it. Well, yes and no. 95 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,560 I think what you see is if you look at the top level in terms 96 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:12,320 of how the money is spent, a lot of the development programmes, 97 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,760 when they take a long time, can spend a lot of time doing 98 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,520 analytical, theoretical assessment to try and get to the 99 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,200 right answer. And in the space industry, 100 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,280 perfection has been key. In fact, on our door, in our 101 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,520 clean room, we have a sign on it that says failure in space is 102 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,120 not an option. The truth is you can't fail once 103 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,400 you're in space. But up until that point through 104 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,240 the development, the quicker you can learn from your mistakes and 105 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,040 move forward, the quicker your development cycle. 106 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,680 Is that the direction of travel then to have more kind of an 107 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,520 actual approach in your work in the projects here? 108 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,160 Absolutely. I think the space industry is 109 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,560 becoming increasingly commercial, whereas before there 110 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,280 was a lot of looking at the origins of the universe and that 111 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:01,080 is still very much part of the whole space brief. 112 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,000 The use of space data throughout the world in terms of everyone 113 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,560 uses satellite data throughout their everyday life. 114 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,960 All of the time from using your mobile phone to connecting to 115 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,160 the Internet, to using your GPS system in your car to get you 116 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:19,920 probably to the the offices here. 117 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:22,840 All of that is driven from access to that space data and 118 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:25,040 that infrastructure that's already been built out. 119 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:30,200 What you start to realise is in order for the connectivity of 120 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,480 the human race to be increased and to provide more of that 121 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,960 connection around the world to developing countries as well, 122 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,320 that need for greater amounts of that build out of the space 123 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,080 infrastructure is necessary. That's putting a lot of pressure 124 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,600 on the space industry to become able to develop faster, go to 125 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,600 higher volumes. So we're seeing a lot of 126 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,040 constellations or large quantities of satellites in the 127 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:57,480 the design for manufacture. That's applying a different 128 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,360 level of pressure on the development cycle, which is 129 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,680 causing us to want to move faster and quicker. 130 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,200 That means we need to do a lot more design, developed, test, 131 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,720 fail, learn and reiterate on that cycle again and again. 132 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,320 And that's something that we're trying to do a lot more inside 133 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,880 the nano space organisation because it really helps to give 134 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,160 our engineers the kind of data they need to actually make good 135 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,120 decisions. So moving to an agile approach 136 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,080 is you end up blending and what we've seen and it's working 137 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,800 quite well is a hybrid approach where you're using that top 138 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,920 level waterfall planning approach, but then you're 139 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,360 building in sprints and developments a short development 140 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,880 activities that allow you to to the next miles stay. 141 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,440 And a lot of what we're doing here is driving towards that. 142 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,280 I think one of the enabling factors to being able to be 143 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,680 better at doing that is making sure that infrastructure is 144 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,360 available to do the testing and the activities. 145 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,080 And you'll see as you go around on a tour of the Namo UK site, 146 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,160 we've invested heavily in building test facilities close 147 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,160 to our doorstep where we make the parts that gives us that 148 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,080 very rapid iteration loop. I think if we were looking at a 149 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,000 test facility service that was spread around Europe or the 150 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,040 world to go and do these developments, you would see 151 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,320 substantially longer lead times to get to test, to get to the 152 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,600 data to allow you to iterate the designs that you see. 153 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,200 So for us, investing in that test infrastructure is a 154 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,040 critical element of being able to move faster, quicker and with 155 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,320 more confidence that the developments that we're doing 156 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,120 and the product we're maturing to market are robust and 157 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:37,799 reliable. So it's sort of like a period of 158 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:39,480 change. We're also quite exciting I 159 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:40,520 guess. Absolutely. 160 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,280 Yeah, absolutely. We've seen I joined the Namo UK 161 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,760 business back in 2013 and at that point we actually went 162 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,440 through a consolidation phase where we reduced the site down 163 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,080 to 18 people. 18 How big is it now? 164 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,520 It's currently and it's just grown to and we're almost at 100 165 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,000 people in the UK now. So it's been quite a substantial 166 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,040 growth period for us. We've seen investment in new 167 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,520 buildings, in new test infrastructure that's allowed us 168 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,400 to grow the skills or resources that we need in the business 169 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,520 substantially from where we were. 170 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,560 What's it like actually working here and being in this industry? 171 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:18,960 You're obviously very excited about the whole thing, but. 172 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,440 So I think the single biggest moment that gets me every time 173 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,160 and it's so easy to get caught up in the day-to-day and like 174 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,760 dealing with problems and whether you're rocket 175 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,760 engineering or other types of engineering, you're dealing with 176 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,920 day-to-day problems that 'cause you focus on that and you take 177 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,360 yourself away from the big picture. 178 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,280 But every time I look at the moon, I realise that there is a 179 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,160 piece of hardware that this factory is built that I've been 180 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,000 involved with, that I've touched, that is sat on the 181 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,160 surface of the moon. And at that moment it starts to 182 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,880 bring it all home as to what I really do. 183 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,880 And there's not many things, not many jobs you can do where you 184 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,960 can go and look at kind of the moon and say, Yep, I've designed 185 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,920 something, I've made something or I've been involved in making 186 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,600 something happen and it's on the surface of the moon. 187 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,000 And I think that is such an inspirational moment for me as 188 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,080 to why I do what I do, because it's like, who gets to do that? 189 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,920 You. Can't get a much bigger picture 190 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,520 than that, can you? Yeah, there's another. 191 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,400 You can't see the Jupiter so easily, but we have a robotic 192 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,040 spacecraft powered by nano engines, which is currently 193 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,080 orbiting Jupiter and picking up data and sending images back. 194 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,880 So we get to understand what's going on in Jupiter, what the 195 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,800 composition of the surface is made-up of. 196 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,440 And it's like it's, it's just like it's, it's an amazing 197 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:44,080 experience. Explain to us about how the work 198 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,400 the kind of different types of projects that is kind of maybe 199 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,320 different divisions you have here and what technologies 200 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,880 you're researching and working with and then which space 201 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,240 missions they've ended up being used in? 202 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,560 Sure. So I would say our business 203 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:08,080 centres solely on propulsion for spacecraft and for space access. 204 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,440 And when I say space access, you're talking about the ability 205 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,200 to launch something into space. We typically only deal with on a 206 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,800 launcher kind of steering aspects of of that vehicle 207 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,320 versus a large, large engines that would allow you to lift the 208 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,640 satellite off on the surface of the Earth and take it into 209 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,720 space. They would have to be done in a 210 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,040 much different site to the one we operate because those engines 211 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,640 are much, much larger. And. 212 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,120 So our engines typically featuring the ones that are 213 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,160 either doing a bit of steering or moving satellites around in 214 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,160 space. So we've been doing that for the 215 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,400 last 30 years at developing new variants of liquid chemical 216 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,360 propulsion engines. And that's either the main 217 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,960 engines used to take a satellite from the point it separates from 218 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,720 a launch vehicle to its final orbit that is going either 219 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,280 around another planet or to a broader orbit around Earth. 220 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,920 We then have some slightly smaller engines that are used to 221 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,600 help with the steering and positioning of satellites and 222 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,760 robotic space probes in space. But alongside that, we also deal 223 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,560 with managing the propellants that we feed our engines with 224 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,040 through something called a propulsion system. 225 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,360 And a propulsion system is basically all the bits that you 226 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,960 need to connect to a rocket engine to make it go, to use it 227 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,120 in space. And so we developed those as 228 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,640 well. So we're operating at a number 229 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,080 of different levels, components, engines, and then we're also 230 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,360 doing the integration of that into full propulsion systems 231 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,120 that you would then put onto a satellite. 232 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,640 And that whole propulsion system would be what's used to enable 233 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:51,600 the mission to deliver the instruments to where they need 234 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,160 to be, therefore transmitting signals or collecting data from 235 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,120 the surface of the Earth or the surface of the Moon. 236 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:04,760 That's broadly what we cover. What projects have you got going 237 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,000 at the moment? So quite a few actually. 238 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,240 How many would you have at one time? 239 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,480 I guess it. So at the moment, I probably 240 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,320 have somewhere in the region of 65 individual projects ongoing. 241 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:22,520 So we have a real mix of regular repeat products that we deliver 242 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,440 to multiple customers and each one of those projects is a 243 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,360 contract. And then there's others where 244 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,320 we're developing new technologies as well. 245 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:35,280 So the whole portfolio is probably 6065 projects in total 246 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,960 that we're we're managing with the team we have here. 247 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,040 How does that split down in terms of kind of percentage? 248 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,960 So how much of the work at the moment is about researching new 249 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,160 technologies? I would say that we are probably 250 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,520 somewhere around about 70% is new developments, new product 251 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,480 developments, yes. So that creates quite a dynamic 252 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,320 environment because with so much development ongoing, that's a 253 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,680 lot of interesting points where you expect an outcome and when 254 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:08,600 you don't get it, you have to come up with a recovery plan or 255 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,160 a changing plan or you've learnt something new which has evolved 256 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,640 your development. So it does create a very 257 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,720 interesting environment and dynamic environment in terms of 258 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,720 every day is a day to solve a new problem. 259 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,080 Yeah, so the goal posts are continually changing because you 260 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,520 might have unexpected results. Yeah, absolutely. 261 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,520 And critically and our project team do a really good job of 262 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,600 managing the risk around that. And for us, when you're in that 263 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,440 high level of development, it's critical that you understand 264 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,160 where your opportunities for risks to occur are and how you 265 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,480 mitigate that and how you do that and keep a business 266 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,280 functioning under that. What space missions are you 267 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,000 involved with that will be happening in the next few years? 268 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,320 What are the really big ones that you feel really proud to 269 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,000 be, you know, working with? So there's quite a few different 270 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,280 ones that are out there. We've actually just delivered a 271 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,720 brand new engine which is called the Liros 4 engine to. 272 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,800 A. Customer called Firefly and 273 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,480 that's going on there Blue Ghost Lander. 274 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,720 So they are hoping to be the first private commercial 275 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,160 organisation to land on the moon successfully. 276 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,840 There's been a few that have tried before them and got very 277 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,560 close but not quite got there. How do you view the project 278 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,920 management function within the organisation? 279 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,280 Has that become more central? Has it always been there? 280 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,320 The fact that Narrow is now a corporate partner of APM, you 281 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,400 know, obviously tells me that you take it very seriously. 282 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,160 So I just wondered if there is any kind of development of the 283 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,680 project management function here? 284 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,320 Yeah. And I think what I saw when I 285 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,560 joined the organisation, it was a very engineering LED 286 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,160 organisation. And it naturally needs to be 287 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,120 because of the types of products we make. 288 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,800 But actually good project engineering, project management 289 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,200 to support and augment the skills. 290 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,800 The pH, DS, the, the, the competent engineers that we have 291 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,240 in the organisation really helps to ensure we both focus on the 292 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,920 technical and also how we get there in a, in an appropriate 293 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,920 time frame. And how we really mention that 294 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,480 risk, not just technical, but project risk as well. 295 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,640 So we've been navigating to growing our project organisation 296 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,280 through the last five to 10 years as part of our journey to 297 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,960 where we're headed. And that so that's been that's 298 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,240 fundamental. You talked a little bit earlier 299 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,400 about entrepreneurship. So one of the things that we're 300 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,040 starting to embed is we're we're breaking the business down into 301 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,760 smaller segments and we're creating almost business units 302 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,320 inside so we can recreate that small start up feel. 303 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,280 And we're going to have programme managers running those 304 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,600 segments of the business almost like a small, like a general 305 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,280 manager or a managing director. So we build that 306 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,800 entrepreneurialship within our programme management function. 307 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,119 That's interesting. It does one of two things. 308 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,720 It starts to give us a breeding ground for succession planning 309 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,200 for general managers and managing directors. 310 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,359 But it also provides us the ability to empower our our 311 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,880 business units, our small product lines to make decisions 312 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,319 much more rapidly. Because as you hear, a lot of my 313 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,319 tone is about speedies of the essence, but the right way. 314 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,080 Not just going fast, but doing it here with competence, with 315 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,040 good understanding, so we keep our risks as low as we can 316 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,720 possibly manage with them. So it's very much something 317 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,640 we're encouraging because it's naturally, as you say, whilst 318 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,600 you're a start up and whilst you're doing huge amounts of 319 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,520 development, there is a lot of that agile decision making that 320 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,000 you would typically see in a more entrepreneurial 321 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,560 environment. So you're focusing very much on 322 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,400 the kind of culture of the business, I guess, and that's 323 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,520 people, yeah. What's 1 of the What are the 324 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,840 challenges around people's, the people side of things when it 325 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,800 comes to the work you do? So I don't think we struggle to 326 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,160 build a team and I don't think we struggle to build people that 327 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,240 are passionate, enthusiastic and prepared to make it work. 328 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,760 What more could you ask from a project team really. 329 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,000 Next up is Elliot Worsley who runs Namos Reliance programme. 330 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,160 He explained that as the business has grown, the company 331 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,040 went from managing projects as a group to now managing them 332 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,960 within 3 product lines. The 1st is fluidic components 333 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,320 using the propulsion systems for satellites or lunar landings or 334 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,840 missions to Mars. The second line is chemical 335 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,400 propulsion products for thrusters that are used for 336 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,200 spacecraft. And the third line, which is 337 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,480 what he looks after, is all about propulsion systems, 338 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,080 including the Reliance programme. 339 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:58,480 I asked him to tell me more. I think Reliance is very 340 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,960 interesting. I am very biassed. 341 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Reliance is an acronym or a backronym. 342 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,760 It depends how you think it was created. 343 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,000 It's dams for rocket engine for lunar and interplanetary Anglo 344 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,800 Norwegian commercial exploration. 345 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,200 But it's really a, I'd say a first for Europe, or at least 346 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:25,400 unique in the sense that it takes what they did on Apollo, 347 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,440 for example, where they had the lunar descent engine, which is 348 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,440 capable of throttling. So this is effectively just 349 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,160 varying the amount of power your engine gives you, which can be 350 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,960 surprisingly complex. And it allows you to, to 351 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,320 essentially trust that throttle as you, as you break from 10s of 352 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,160 thousands of kilometres an hour to to a stop. 353 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:53,040 Reliance was envisaged then to target Arcanal, which is 354 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,080 Europe's first lunar Lander, which is due to launch in 2031. 355 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,480 It's one of two potential engines being considered, but 356 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,800 we're hopeful. When do you find out? 357 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,520 In October. OK, so quite soon. 358 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,800 So by the end of the year, which is why we have testing going on 359 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,240 at the moment to try and support that. 360 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,080 What makes Reliance unique though, and what allows it to 361 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,520 land on only the Moon, the Mars, and potentially Europa or other 362 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:28,120 planetary bodies, is the fact that it houses electric pumps, 363 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,320 which is slightly unique for rocket engine. 364 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:36,040 So typically a rocket engine works a bit like taps on a sink. 365 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,520 You have big tanks, one for the fuel, one for the oxidizer, and 366 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,320 when they mix, they combust. But these taps essentially 367 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,280 adjust the flow rates of both of those to decide what you get in 368 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,280 your engine. Now that means the tanks are 369 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,720 very heavy and all the equipment upstream is very heavy because 370 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,200 you have to hold things at very high pressures so that when you 371 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,120 turn the tap on, it flows straight out reliance because it 372 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,800 houses these pumps, they actually take something from 373 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,240 very low pressure, not not significantly higher pressure 374 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,920 than like your water system at home, and it pumps it right up 375 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,800 into the right conditions for the engine. 376 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,080 So it means everything upstream can be lighter, simpler, easier. 377 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,760 So it allows you to have a simpler spacecraft, which then 378 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,440 allows you to carry more payload. 379 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,160 And it's that it's that piece that's super important within 380 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,000 the space industry is the cost per kilo landed. 381 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,200 So that can range in the real, it's in the region I should say 382 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,160 of one to two million U.S. dollars per kilogramme to get 383 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,360 something to the moon. When you talk about the actual 384 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,320 cost of everything per kilo landed. 385 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:57,160 So something like Reliance could save certainly for Argonaut, 386 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,480 this lunar land emission could save something like 100 to 200 387 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:06,400 kilogrammes of mass, which then translates to an awful lot of 388 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,200 money. So This is why this is really 389 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,480 the business case for doing it. Tell me about what is that like? 390 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,800 It's nerve racking and I say fracking from a project 391 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,920 management perspective. I'd love to manage something. 392 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,840 I knew once everything was designed and even partially 393 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,960 tested that we had good confidence. 394 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,800 The problem is the temperatures in those inside a rocket engine 395 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,360 go up to thousands of degrees so and you can't see what's 396 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:42,600 happening in there. So only test will tell you and 397 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,840 we have all sorts of problems over the years. 398 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,960 I'm not going to create details, but we often stand on the hill 399 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,560 across from the the test site for good reason, health and 400 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,360 safety. But we listen, we listen to the 401 00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,960 countdown over the Tanoi. You hear it fire typically at 402 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:01,640 the moment, at least for something like Reliance, it will 403 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,080 fire for a few seconds. After some time it will start 404 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,560 firing for minutes and then half an hour potentially in one go. 405 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,800 And that, that is something I'm genuinely looking forward to 406 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,360 because not only for me, but you see the passion in the team. 407 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,920 That's, I think that's what I like is, is just seeing, seeing 408 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,880 everyone else's hard work and vision and passion pay off. 409 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,000 Because we're, we're quite fortunate. 410 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,440 We work in an industry where there is a lot of passion 411 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,320 around. You know, people aren't forced 412 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,160 to do the job they do. On the contrary, quite a lot of 413 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,400 our work goes into managing the welfare of the team to make sure 414 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,560 they don't. OK, because they don't want to 415 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,440 stop working. Sometimes, you know, people be 416 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,000 online late on Friday, the weekend, whatever it is, and you 417 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,640 just need to be mindful of that. You don't want to, you don't 418 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,680 want to restrict it. You don't want to give them a 419 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,560 slap on the wrist for doing something they genuinely want to 420 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,600 do. And I don't think that's our 421 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,200 position to do that anyway. But I think you just need to 422 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,760 foster it, motivate them and also help them manage that 423 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,600 pressure. But because someone's going to 424 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,360 be on the critical path and just trying to help someone through 425 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,800 that is important. Does he want to prevent burnout? 426 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,160 Really. Yeah, something we need to pay 427 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,000 attention to. Now Elliot has given me a 428 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,120 programme overview, I wanted to speak to a senior project 429 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,600 manager involved with a nitty gritty of project work. 430 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,400 So meet Lucy Stock, who until very recently worked for Namo in 431 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,720 that role before leaving to become a consultant. 432 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,240 I began by asking her what the biggest project management 433 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,000 lessons are that she's learnt over her career in space. 434 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,440 One of the, the really hard things about a project 435 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,920 management role is you obviously take responsibility for the 436 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,120 timelines and sometimes you do need to go to the customer with, 437 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,680 with negative news, you know, we're delayed for XYZ reasons 438 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,000 and and that's really hard. So one thing can we try and do, 439 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,120 especially with the younger project management's is to 440 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:09,880 encourage them after a particularly stressful meeting 441 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,280 with a customer to reach out to other peers within the business 442 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,800 and do kind of like a hot debrief. 443 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,840 Because just talking through that the bit that was tricky can 444 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,440 really help. Are there any other big project 445 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,040 management lessons you've learned over your career or 446 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,800 working here that you that you would pass on to like if you're 447 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,160 just, you know, your first project management job? 448 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,520 Oh yeah, sure. What would you say to yourself? 449 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,840 You know, make sure you. Do this, yeah. 450 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,360 You know, one thing which I've learnt over years of project 451 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:42,760 management, which I think is probably the key, is 452 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,160 understanding where to dive into the deep end, into the detail 453 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,000 and where you can not manage things so closely. 454 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,920 So with really big projects, there's different streams of 455 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,640 work going on that interact in different ways. 456 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,840 And I think it's being really sensible about the bits that 457 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,240 need to be micromanaged on a day by day, hourly basis. 458 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,400 You know, it's super critical, super complicated and really 459 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,120 getting into the weeds of those areas. 460 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,240 But you obviously can't do that everywhere. 461 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,200 So it's understanding, depending on the stage of the project life 462 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,000 cycle and the type of project and the different streams of 463 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,800 work within it, which bits to really get into the weeds of and 464 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,480 which bits you don't need to. How do you make a decision like 465 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,520 that? So for me, having a really 466 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,480 strong risk management process, so at the beginning of a 467 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,560 programme really delving into the high risk areas, what's 468 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,360 going to be the biggest issues that we're likely to see. 469 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:38,120 Obviously there's always those Black Swan events that you, it's 470 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,920 difficult to predict, but having a really strong risk analysis at 471 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,680 the beginning to try and understand where you might see 472 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,960 issues. And if you do see issues, what 473 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,600 their impacts going to be. You might have an issue in one 474 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,480 particular stream of work, but actually is not in the critical 475 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,040 path or it can be resolved easily. 476 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,280 Standard products, you know, it's, it's not going to be an 477 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,800 issue, but there might be another area that's super 478 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,000 critical on the timeline and it's a new development. 479 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,640 And so it's really looking at the project of the whole and try 480 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,360 and breaking it up into, into chunks and understanding which 481 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,480 bits you're really going to have to spend your time focusing on. 482 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,760 OK. And I guess that breaking up is 483 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,600 key at the beginning as well, putting things into clear work 484 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,160 streams so that you can manage that. 485 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,400 What makes for a good project manager and what makes for a 486 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,960 good project team? The culture. 487 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,920 And how do you go about achieving that? 488 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,760 I think 1 good thing about space projects, it's fully multi 489 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,200 discipline team, which I like. So you've got Mechanical 490 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,040 Engineers, you've got electrical engineers, you've got your 491 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,000 quality people, your product assurance people, and you've got 492 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,320 your super senior technicians as well that come in. 493 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,560 So it's a multi discipline team, people looking at different 494 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,040 areas and I think making sure that they all understand the 495 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,920 goal. I think everyone's working on 496 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,280 different things within the project, but there's there's 497 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,760 always, there's always a goal, whether that's a short term goal 498 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,360 to finish something within the next couple of weeks or the 499 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,640 longer term goal. But giving the team the 500 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,040 perspective of the schedule. Because quite often you check 501 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,680 tasks out at team members and you don't get them involved in 502 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,280 the bigger picture. But I think it's really 503 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,800 important to do it at the beginning and then at regular 504 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,480 stages to the project, remind people what the key milestones 505 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,680 are, what the key deliverables are, and ultimately what this 506 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,760 thing is going to end up doing. Because if people lose 507 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,960 perspective of any of those things, everything falls apart 508 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,640 really. What I know, why don't you tell 509 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,800 me some of the projects you're working at the moment and maybe 510 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,320 one that you've worked that has been completed that you feel 511 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,160 most proud of and O the erhas roject you're working on now, 512 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,640 how it's set U, how it's run, but with the roject that you've 513 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,480 you've done in the AST that you feel roud of justice. 514 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,080 What works about that? What were the challenges? 515 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,600 What are the risks you face and how you went about overcoming 516 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:02,480 those? Yeah, sure. 517 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,680 It'd be really nice to get real insight into what it's like to 518 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,200 work on projects like these. So my the project I'm most proud 519 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,920 of, which is the one you're going to go and see later, is 520 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,200 the National Space Propulsion Test Facility upon RJ site, 521 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,800 which was a slightly different project for me because it was 522 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,960 more of a more of a facility based project. 523 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,960 And it was the first thing I did when I came to Namo. 524 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,040 It was basically building a vacuum test facility for rocket 525 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,240 engines. And there's, there's literally a 526 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,360 handful of places within the UK that can actually test engines 527 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,920 of this class. And for us that made it really 528 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,200 difficult because when our engines got to test stage, we 529 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,920 had to package up these really important expensive engines, 530 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,200 send them off to America with an engineer as well to be tested. 531 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,800 And the amount of extra organisation and risk you're 532 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,480 adding to a project in order having to do that and, and the 533 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,840 time as well. Everyone's trying to develop as 534 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,520 rapidly as they can now and it just, you know, months and 535 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,000 months doing it. So, so now we've got a facility 536 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,160 literally on our doorstep where we can do either medium altitude 537 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,560 or high altitude testing and get that feedback. 538 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,840 So it's really accelerated our design loop. 539 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,960 So working on that facility for me was really exciting because 540 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,600 it was an enabler. So we were all there where where 541 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,120 it was being built and put together lots of testing, but 542 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,960 that facility worked first time. And that never happens like it, 543 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,040 you know, it's there's, there's always something that goes 544 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,160 wrong. That's congratulations for that. 545 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,160 What, what, What made it a success? 546 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,800 So it was communication for sure, daily stand ups with all 547 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,600 the key people together to make sure everybody knew what 548 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,280 everybody else was doing, where there might be issues, concerns 549 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,480 or crossovers. So it was, yeah, a daily stand 550 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,240 up where all the key players were together. 551 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,440 Depending on the cycle. I mean, some weeks it might have 552 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,840 been really important for the calling people to be in that 553 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,120 stand up and some weeks it might have been really important for 554 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,000 the power people to be in there. So just depended on the stage of 555 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,760 the project. But yeah, clear daily stand up 556 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,360 so everyone knew who was doing what. 557 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,680 Yeah. And just by using that tone 558 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,320 standups do you what kind of approach do you take to roject 559 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:08,840 management here? Is it agile? 560 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,400 Is it, you know, more traditional methods? 561 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,680 Is it everything whatever works from the toolbox? 562 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,160 Yeah. So a really interesting question 563 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,000 because we space traditionally leans quite heavily towards a 564 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000 waterfall standard approach, but what we are trying to do is 565 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,560 implement pockets of agile to accelerate things. 566 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,840 So. That's interesting. 567 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,240 How? How's that working? 568 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,280 Yeah. How do you do it? 569 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,480 Yeah. So it's, it's, I think we'll 570 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,880 never get fully agile because we're building big mechanical 571 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,320 systems, but we can do a hybrid where we look. 572 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,520 So say for example, with the facility, we look at individual 573 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,280 areas of the site. So say for example the thrust 574 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,160 stand which the engine is mounted on. 575 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,720 So when it fires you can you can measure what the thrust is, 576 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,640 which wasn't one of the key measurements we take when we're 577 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,160 testing the engines. You could look at that as a 578 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,680 complete sub assembly and say OK we can't finish the whole system 579 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,560 until the end, but we can take each sub assembly as far as we 580 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,080 can and test it and de risk it as much as we can before the 581 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,360 final point. OK. 582 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,120 So where do you think generally it's heading towards the kind of 583 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,000 SpaceX model? I think it's somewhere in 584 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,080 between new space and old space. Middle space. 585 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:18,240 Middle space. Middle space. 586 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,200 That sounds exciting. Yeah, I think, I think, I think 587 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,640 the extreme of new space and the maybe lack of attention to 588 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,800 detail in some areas and then the reverse in the old space 589 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,240 management style. I think they'll they'll 590 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,880 hopefully be a happy medium in the middle where we can be a bit 591 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,640 more rapid but not miss things. The most cutting edge test 592 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,800 facility that Lucy successfully delivered is a short walk away 593 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,560 from its offices. I went to take a look around 594 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,720 accompanied by Carl Smith, a senior test engineer, who 595 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,480 explained some of what goes on there. 596 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,960 So I managed the National Space Fortune facility. 597 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,360 So it's my job to make sure that that keeps running safely and 598 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:02,240 efficiently. Yeah. 599 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,640 And how often are you using facilities here? 600 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,880 Every day. We are, we're, we're not hot 601 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440 fire testing every day, but we're, we're, we're always doing 602 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,080 sort of engine prep, site prep set down and, and we're firing 603 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,520 sort of every two or three weeks really. 604 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,080 What's the hot fire test? So hot fire test is where we, 605 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,680 we, we fire the engine. So we provide propellants into 606 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,440 the engine. I'll explain a little bit more 607 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,080 about that. Yeah. 608 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,280 So what? What are we approaching here? 609 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,560 So this is Nanos J3 test cell. OK. 610 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,680 So it just looks like a big concrete bunker with a lot of 611 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,200 stuff coming out of it. Yes, yes, I'll explain that a 612 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,560 little bit now. So, yeah, so J3 test cell, which 613 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,240 is, which is the cell here was built about a decade ago. 614 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,760 It was initially built to support the development of our 615 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:02,400 1100 Newton HTE engine. So that uses this. 616 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,040 This site uses monomethyl hydrogen or hydrogen as a fuel 617 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,360 and it uses Mon 3 as the oxidizer and this was originally 618 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,600 a sea level test facility. What does that mean? 619 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,639 Sea level. So that means that you hot fire 620 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:19,520 test out into the open air basically at ambient pressures. 621 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,440 And that's absolutely great for the majority of engine 622 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,080 development, but it'll only get you so far. 623 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,239 To fully qualify an engine for flight, you have to test in a 624 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:32,600 vacuum. OK. 625 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,639 And, and also every engine that we sell goes through acceptance 626 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,920 testing as well. And again, you have to test in a 627 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,960 vacuum to do that. And that's where the National 628 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,480 Space Portion Test facility comes in. 629 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,960 So what you see coming out of the building here, that's part 630 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,400 of the National Space Portion Test facility, that's actually 631 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,760 owned by the UK Space Agency. What is it? 632 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,840 Can you describe it? Yes, I can describe it. 633 00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,880 So it it's a little bit complicated. 634 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,840 I think I'll if I come on to that it. 635 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:05,800 Looks like a tunnel to me, yeah. Yeah, it it, it sort of is. 636 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,680 But yeah, if I I'll explain that OK once I've explained the 637 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:09,760 engine. So I think it'll make a little 638 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,160 bit more sense. To you OK, Yeah. 639 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,840 So it's owned by the UK Space Agency. 640 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,400 But, but, but we operate it at Namo and it effectively converts 641 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,800 J3 from a sea level test facility to A to a vacuum 642 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,960 facility. And that's, that's really great 643 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480 for us because we used to have to send all of our engines to 644 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,120 the US to test, but now we've brought that capability in House 645 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,520 of Westcott. Most acceptance testing that we 646 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,560 do on engines will normally be a day or two. 647 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,920 OK, Yeah. So when was the last time you 648 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,280 did one? Last week. 649 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,320 We've got another plan next week. 650 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:45,640 Yeah. Oh. 651 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,280 I came on the wrong week. It's always the way. 652 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,200 So are you standing far away to observe these experiments? 653 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,720 We we watch from the control room. 654 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:58,160 We can go and take a look in there now if you'd like. 655 00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,840 Yeah, I'd like to have a look at the control room. 656 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,040 Thank you. Close this up. 657 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,600 There. So anyone who wants to test 658 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,160 anything along the lines that you're doing has to come here to 659 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,960 test it. There's not many places in the 660 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,400 world that do what we do, really. 661 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,880 There's obviously many places in America and also in Germany, but 662 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,520 you know, This site is, is is one-of-a-kind, and it's very 663 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,200 efficient at what it does. Yeah. 664 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,960 So this is the control room. So this gives you an idea of 665 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,920 what the the the team will see when they're firing an engine. 666 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,400 Yeah. So what's so in thought is being 667 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,960 tested. The team will be in here. 668 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:42,160 Yes, absolutely. Yes, this is the control room. 669 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,160 So we run the site with two operators generally. 670 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,160 We will quite often have a a support engineer here as well 671 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,480 with us. So what you're looking at here 672 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,720 is the site controller and data acquisition software that allows 673 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,480 us to operate the various systems. 674 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,000 There's like 10 screens here. Yes, there's there's a lot to 675 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,040 look at, but there's a lot of autonomy to it as well. 676 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,040 And that's why we can run the site with just two, two 677 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,840 operators. So the first screen over here, 678 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,560 for example, is the software for the national space portion test 679 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,440 facility. So that allows us to control the 680 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:15,960 vacuum pumps in the cooling system. 681 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,160 And it's actually continually monitoring instrumentation 682 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,560 around the whole system. So there's instrumentation on 683 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,920 the diffuser, the plume intercooler, the vacuum 684 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,800 generation plant, the cooling system constantly monitoring the 685 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,840 health of the system. And if any parameters start 686 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,720 falling out of predefined limits, and initially it will 687 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,400 flag up a warning. So you know, there's there's 688 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,760 something wrong here. If parameters continue to fall 689 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,800 out of predefined limits, it will automatically abort the 690 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,200 firing, shut down the system, and put it into a safe state. 691 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,160 So that autonomy allows the the test team to focus on the engine 692 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,440 they're testing and almost, you know, ignore all of those 693 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,040 systems that are just running in the background. 694 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,800 OK. So what we've also got is the 695 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,440 site control for the propellant feed system that allows us to 696 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,120 operate various valves remotely around the system, also allows 697 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,120 us to set and regulate tank pressures. 698 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,200 We've got some auxiliary control software that allows us to 699 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,120 control things like propellant in that temperatures, complete 700 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,920 load cell calibrations. We've got 2 thermal imaging 701 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,080 cameras that you see a screenshot up on top here, which 702 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,840 is what we see during the firing, an optical camera across 703 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:30,160 there. Oh, so you? 704 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,840 Can actually see the engines. You can actually see the engine 705 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,680 firing yet, so you can see it glowing. 706 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,160 That's pretty cool. And then we've got our data 707 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,200 acquisition system here, which is obviously logging all of the 708 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,480 different instrumentation around the system. 709 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,200 And we've got what we call up here our our real time engine 710 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,400 monitoring software. And that that's great because it 711 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,600 shows us sort of at a glance if we're in spec on key parameters. 712 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,280 Are you safe in here? Like if something goes wrong in 713 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,560 there. These are, I mean, it's like in 714 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,320 a bunker here. These are designed. 715 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,400 Yeah, yeah. This, this building was actually 716 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,000 designed with like with like a a rating. 717 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,800 I don't know what you call it, a explosion rating? 718 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:16,800 Really. So you're pretty safe in. 719 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,840 Here, so you're fairly safe. And on the desk is a red button, 720 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:22,720 a big. Red button, yeah. 721 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:24,720 A big red button. It does exactly what you expect. 722 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:26,880 Emergency stop. Normal abort So. 723 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,880 Yeah. So you hit that and it basically 724 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,200 shuts the engine down, stops it from from from falling. 725 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,880 Have you hit that recently? We do actually have to hit that 726 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,240 quite often, but it's not normally in an emergency. 727 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,440 It's normally, particularly if you're doing R&D research stuff, 728 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,360 you might get an engines getting a little bit hot maybe or it 729 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,600 might go unstable and you just hit that really just to protect 730 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,440 the hardware. I really want to hit that button 731 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:53,920 away. You can hit it now. 732 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,360 It's not going to do anything if you hit it now. 733 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,640 Can I? Yeah, absolutely. 734 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,080 Yeah, that was quite satisfying. Carl covered the rest of the 735 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,000 facility with me after giving me a flavour of his work on the 736 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,040 test site. Everyone I've spoken to seemed 737 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,360 excited by the changes that the commercialisation of the space 738 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,800 industry is bringing about. This move to a more agile way of 739 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,200 running space projects is something Carolina Zetorska, a 740 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,760 recently qualified project manager at Namo, has thought a 741 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,760 lot about since switching career from a career in engineering. 742 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,720 She views the disruption space startups are bringing about as a 743 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,560 positive thing. But first, let's listen to what 744 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,320 she has to say about her career change and the projects she 745 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,600 works on. So I'm one of the project 746 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,760 managers at Namo within the chemical propulsion stream of 747 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,000 products. And my roles and 748 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,760 responsibilities are basically I managed projects all the way 749 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,920 from like the conceptual at the stage, which starts with like 750 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,480 proposals and bids is where we bid to, you know, win a contract 751 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:06,280 with a new customer and then all the way through project kick off 752 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,560 procurement, manufacture, testing and then finally 753 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,280 delivery of that project to their customers do. 754 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,080 You have a favourite bit. No, I love all of it actually. 755 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,120 So that's one of the reasons. So I'm sure we'll get to it 756 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,800 eventually, but the reason why I like project management is 757 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,360 because it's so varied. So what are you working on right 758 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,840 now? Which projects are you working 759 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,840 on? So I'm responsible for our Leros 760 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,800 range of engines. So either the bigger apogee 761 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,360 engines which are traditionally used for raising the apogee of 762 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,240 of an orbit, so. What does that mean for people 763 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:47,680 who don't know? So that's basically making sure 764 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,000 that you're in the right orbit around Earth, for example. 765 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,680 So the apogee point is, if you think of an orbit as an eclipse, 766 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,920 it as an ellipse, sorry, it's the closest point to Earth 767 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,440 because it's not a circular orbit goes like this. 768 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:05,040 So it's the closest point to to Earth. 769 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,600 So the apogee engines will raise that that they will. 770 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:16,600 They will increase the distance of the apogee point to Earth and 771 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,080 then the smaller engines. Why do you why do you need to do 772 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,680 that? It depends on what your mission 773 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,000 is doing. So obviously the purpose of the 774 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:31,480 spacecraft as a whole mission will dictate where in space the 775 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,320 spacecraft needs to be. So it's like the positioning of 776 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,840 the spacecraft around whichever object, whichever planet, that's 777 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,040 the circling around. Are there some up in space right 778 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,840 now or going to be launched soon? 779 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,360 So not the ones that I have delivered because I've only been 780 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,040 here just under 2 years and unfortunately this space in this 781 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,960 tree doesn't move that fast. So when will they? 782 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,040 Do you have an idea of when they will actually be going? 783 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:05,080 In space it always changes, so I think the last it depends on 784 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,280 which projects. So the one I'm thinking of now 785 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,720 is mass sample return project that we delivered engines for to 786 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,640 Airbus Defence in Space and Stevenage. 787 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:20,440 So they are putting together a mission for NASA slash ESA 788 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:27,240 project and the aim of that mission is to retrieve a sample 789 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:32,480 from Mars and then bring him back to Earth for sort of like 790 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,600 high tech analysis in in Earth laboratories. 791 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,600 So that one was scheduled to launch around 2027. 792 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,040 How do you feel about the future of space in the UKI? 793 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:52,400 Think recently we've had a few more, I would say disruptive 794 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:57,600 companies and concepts where the space industry in Europe is 795 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,960 based on heritage and is based on things you know are going to 796 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:07,600 work. And I guess the time aspect of 797 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,160 that means that projects do take longer. 798 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:19,640 But recently we've had what I call new space companies pop up 799 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,880 where they don't want the heritage because obviously the 800 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,920 time and cost comes with that. They want new and quick and 801 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:31,520 different solutions to get them into space and get them flying 802 00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:35,400 cheaper and faster. And I think that will be 803 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,920 disruptive because in a good way, because suppliers will have 804 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:48,720 to learn how to deliver to tighter schedules and smaller 805 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:50,960 budgets. But also customers that are 806 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,840 competing against each other will be competing in two 807 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,000 different worlds. So if you're in a world of 808 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,800 heritage versus new space, you're going to have to somehow 809 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,120 bridge that gap. What are the biggest challenges 810 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,800 you face running a project here? I think the biggest lessons 811 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:17,320 learnt for me, yeah, would be that it's quite often I don't 812 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,280 know if it's just my style or if project management managers do 813 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:26,480 it across the board, but I try and patch things up to make sure 814 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,880 we can continue with the project. 815 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,600 So if something goes wrong and is, you know, maybe doesn't fall 816 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,840 into my remit, but I can make a call for someone to fix it. 817 00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:38,440 I will take on the responsibility of whatever needs 818 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,280 needs doing that day to make sure we can progress with the 819 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,480 project, which I I called a warrior mode. 820 00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:52,120 So you're, you're like, it's not your job to fix it, but you'll 821 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,680 do anything in your power to make sure it gets fixed quickly 822 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,680 and reliably. And anything like that that 823 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,600 comes up you're just going to deal with. 824 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,520 But it's not sustainable, especially when you manage quite 825 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,360 a few projects at the same time. There's warrior mode or like 826 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,240 patching things up. We'll work in the short term, 827 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,840 but the most important thing is to have lessons learnt, sessions 828 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,320 and reflect and give yourself time to think. 829 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,000 How do I prevent it from happening again? 830 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,600 Rather than, you know, be a hero for the moment, fix something, 831 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:29,920 and then move on to the next thing. 832 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,000 Thanks again to Carolina, Carl, Lucy, Elliot and Rob for joining 833 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,440 us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. 834 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,800 I really enjoy going on site to meet just a handful of people 835 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,400 who are putting the UK on the International Space map. 836 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,240 Not only to understand the projects they're working on and 837 00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:56,200 the important lessons they've learnt along the way, but also 838 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,960 what it feels like to be working in a sector that is undergoing 839 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,280 such disruption and change. If you'd like to find out more 840 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,880 about NAMO, then look out for the Autumn 2024 issue project 841 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,240 where I take a deep dive into the business. 842 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,880 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and 843 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,840 review us wherever you get your podcasts. 844 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,440 We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 845 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,120 suggestions by emailing us at APM Podcast at 846 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,200 thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 847 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,400 you by APM, the childhood body for the project profession. 848 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,200 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.