1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,850 Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The Chartered 2 00:00:07,860 --> 00:00:11,670 Body for the Project profession. This episode is part of our 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,750 series of Senior Leader Interviews hosted by APM Chief 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,130 Executive Professor Adam Bodison. 5 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:21,430 This time, Adam is speaking to Doctor Karen Skinner of medical 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,270 research charity Life Arc. The charity aims to advance 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,200 early scientific discoveries to the point where they could be 8 00:00:28,210 --> 00:00:30,750 developed into the next generation of diagnostics and 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,230 treatments for patients. Aaron's Life Arc Chief Project 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,540 and portfolio officer, and she brings more than 25 years of 11 00:00:38,550 --> 00:00:42,060 experience within life sciences, pharmaceuticals and biotech, 12 00:00:43,380 --> 00:00:45,400 cutting out her career as a bench scientist. 13 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:48,090 She later discovered that she excelled at planning, building 14 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:51,400 relationships and getting the best from teams, which led to a 15 00:00:51,410 --> 00:00:53,700 long and successful career in project management. 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,230 So listen on to here Adam and Karen discuss the role of 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,190 project management and getting new drugs to patients, why 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,430 medical research projects are so high risk, and why projects 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,570 success relies more on people management than robust planning. 20 00:01:11,210 --> 00:01:14,560 So I'm delighted to welcome to the APM Podcast today Doctor 21 00:01:14,570 --> 00:01:17,880 Karen Skinner from Life Arc. Welcome Karen to the APM 22 00:01:17,890 --> 00:01:19,850 Podcast. Thanks, Adam. 23 00:01:20,620 --> 00:01:24,330 I I think before we dive in to life arc and the project 24 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:27,710 profession more broadly, maybe we can start by you telling us a 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,150 little bit about your career journey and and in particular 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,970 how you came to be in the project profession in the first 27 00:01:33,980 --> 00:01:36,490 place. I started out as a bench 28 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:39,430 scientist. I I loved science at school and 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,310 I just knew at the outset that's what I wanted to do. 30 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:46,930 So after I did my O levels I I did my science A levels. 31 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:50,010 Then I did my first degree in pharmacology at the University 32 00:01:50,020 --> 00:01:53,750 of Bath and then a pH. D in neuroscience at the 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,430 University of Oxford. And then during my studies I did 34 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,470 a year out in industry at the pharmaceutical company. 35 00:02:00,530 --> 00:02:04,600 It was Glaxo at the time, now GSK but that was back back in 36 00:02:04,610 --> 00:02:07,970 the day when it was pre merger. So it was just Glaxo at the time 37 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:10,360 and they also kindly sponsored my PhD. 38 00:02:10,370 --> 00:02:12,600 So I did further secondments there. 39 00:02:12,670 --> 00:02:16,660 And from that experience, I just knew that I wanted to apply my 40 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:19,680 understanding of science to improve the lives of those 41 00:02:19,690 --> 00:02:23,680 living with disease, to innovate and accelerate development of 42 00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:26,180 new and improved medicinal products. 43 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:29,000 So after my studies, I got my first job and again that was 44 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:32,240 another major pharmaceutical company, Merck, where I got a 45 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:35,520 really good grounding of drug discovery there and then my very 46 00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:38,540 first taste of project leadership working in small 47 00:02:38,550 --> 00:02:40,880 project teams. I then moved to a high growth 48 00:02:40,890 --> 00:02:44,430 biotech company called BTG and all my experience up to that 49 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:46,870 point was all in preclinical development, but I really wanted 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,800 to move closer to the patient. And so I joined their clinical 51 00:02:49,810 --> 00:02:52,440 development team. And when I joined BTG, it was 52 00:02:52,450 --> 00:02:54,720 really small. It's only about 70 people. 53 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:58,120 We had project leaders, but we didn't have a dedicated project 54 00:02:58,130 --> 00:03:01,490 management team at that time. But we grew really fast. 55 00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:04,400 We grew through organic growth and through multiple 56 00:03:04,410 --> 00:03:08,090 acquisitions and we started to take products further down the 57 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:09,680 development path all the way to launch. 58 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:12,280 So the skills we needed were more varied. 59 00:03:12,290 --> 00:03:15,200 We needed regulatory, market access, sales. 60 00:03:15,530 --> 00:03:19,250 So our project teams were much more complex and our employees 61 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,500 or across multiple geographies that became apparent. 62 00:03:22,510 --> 00:03:26,240 We really needed dedicated skilled project management. 63 00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:29,400 And so although I really love the science and I still do 64 00:03:29,450 --> 00:03:31,960 through my role on those projects teams over the years, 65 00:03:31,970 --> 00:03:34,730 it was clear that my strengths were in that planning and 66 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:38,620 organisation in establishing processes so that fit for 67 00:03:38,630 --> 00:03:41,700 purpose in getting the best from teams and building 68 00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:43,780 relationships. So I started doing more and more 69 00:03:43,790 --> 00:03:47,500 of that and ultimately I ended up building and leading the 70 00:03:47,510 --> 00:03:50,000 project management department at BTG. 71 00:03:50,010 --> 00:03:53,740 So I'm really a firm believer that although scientific 72 00:03:53,830 --> 00:03:56,970 innovation is the core of the industry, great science just 73 00:03:56,980 --> 00:03:58,610 doesn't get the drug to the patient. 74 00:03:58,620 --> 00:04:02,090 It takes a large, complex team of people to do that and it 75 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:04,360 takes a really strong project management to get the best from 76 00:04:04,370 --> 00:04:05,930 those teams. So that's why I've kind of 77 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:09,510 focused my career more lastly in that project management space. 78 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,570 Yeah, that makes sense. And I thought it was really 79 00:04:11,580 --> 00:04:14,680 interesting about what you were saying there Karen was all of 80 00:04:14,690 --> 00:04:17,450 those aspects of project management like stakeholder 81 00:04:17,459 --> 00:04:20,250 engagement, other kind of the people side of the project 82 00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:23,170 profession, if you like, they're really, really important because 83 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:26,610 sometimes I get asked about well you know is project management 84 00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:30,910 the same as product management. And one one of my responses to 85 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,830 that is that I always feel a project management has got much 86 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:38,050 more of the kind of EQ side of things in it than than purely 87 00:04:38,060 --> 00:04:41,010 being a product focused. Although clearly there is some, 88 00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:43,250 some overlap between the two. I don't know if you would agree 89 00:04:43,260 --> 00:04:44,850 with that. Absolutely. 90 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:47,570 I couldn't agree more. I felt like, you know, 90% of it 91 00:04:47,580 --> 00:04:51,030 is that people peace getting the best from the teams rather than 92 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,860 actually, yeah, the the, the, the project management and 93 00:04:53,870 --> 00:04:55,860 getting the job done. Yeah, that makes sense. 94 00:04:55,870 --> 00:04:57,710 So let's talk about your current role then. 95 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,600 So how long have you been in the role and what's a typical day, 96 00:05:03,150 --> 00:05:06,870 such a thing as a typical day? Well, I've now been at Life Up 97 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,290 for about four years actually, so a life arc. 98 00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:11,530 I don't know if you know so much about them. 99 00:05:11,540 --> 00:05:15,310 They're one of the largest self funding, not-for-profit medical 100 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,090 research organisations in the UK. 101 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:21,850 I'm a member of the executive team and I'm accountable for 102 00:05:21,860 --> 00:05:23,850 their portfolio of translation challenges. 103 00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:27,770 These are really, really ambitious research programmes 104 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:31,720 focused on complex healthcare needs and then the way we've 105 00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:34,200 structured the leaders of all those challenges reporting to 106 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:37,350 me, as does the project management organisation under 107 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,640 our head of PMO. OK now that makes sense and 108 00:05:41,030 --> 00:05:43,380 really, really interested that you talk about portfolio there. 109 00:05:43,390 --> 00:05:45,830 So for for people listening to this I I should offer a 110 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:49,360 disclaimer in advance that sometimes the APM we we we use 111 00:05:49,370 --> 00:05:51,940 the the word project interchangeably when we 112 00:05:51,950 --> 00:05:54,940 sometimes mean a programme or a portfolio just because it takes 113 00:05:54,950 --> 00:05:57,180 too long to talk about all three of them all of the time. 114 00:05:57,250 --> 00:05:59,630 But but for this question I do particularly want to ask you 115 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,960 about the portfolio because I suppose that life arc there's 116 00:06:02,970 --> 00:06:07,320 probably no shortage of of projects and programmes that you 117 00:06:07,330 --> 00:06:09,540 could run and and and could pursue. 118 00:06:09,550 --> 00:06:11,130 How do you decide which ones to do? 119 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:14,590 That is quite a challenge because there's so much 120 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,110 opportunity there out there. So a life arc are our aim is to 121 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,650 make life science life changing for people living with disease. 122 00:06:22,660 --> 00:06:26,690 So we're working to source the most promising early research 123 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:29,970 validating those discoveries and supporting them through their 124 00:06:29,980 --> 00:06:32,810 next steps and their development towards the clinic. 125 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,510 And as a not-for-profit, we can focus on smaller patient 126 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,900 populations that typically attract less investment because 127 00:06:39,910 --> 00:06:42,890 they're not commercially viable areas such as motor neurone 128 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:45,550 disease for example, where which is a, I mean that's a 129 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,250 particularly debilitating and life limiting neurodegenerative 130 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:52,570 disease, but it's relatively rare compared to other 131 00:06:52,580 --> 00:06:54,870 neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's disease. 132 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,680 So we'll know that the large pharmaceutical companies, they 133 00:06:57,690 --> 00:07:00,670 will invest into research and outstanding disease, but not so 134 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,450 much in a smaller population. So those are the areas that we 135 00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:07,010 prioritise as a not-for-profit. And so we've got projects that 136 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:12,250 are developing new drugs and diagnostics, medical devices, 137 00:07:12,260 --> 00:07:16,830 digital solutions all aimed at changing the lives of those 138 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,090 patients. And again, it's on on those 139 00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:23,010 relatively underserved areas. Now that that that that makes 140 00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:26,370 good sense and and what I really like about about the work that 141 00:07:26,380 --> 00:07:29,750 Life Arc does is when people think about projects and 142 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,910 programmes it's quite easy to think about. 143 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,670 I don't know construction and telecoms and infrastructure but 144 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,360 actually you're kind of living proof if you like that actually 145 00:07:40,370 --> 00:07:43,830 the project profession is is a genuinely pan sector profession 146 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,370 that is making a difference to people's lives every day. 147 00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:49,090 So that's really powerful. So so let's tell me more about 148 00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:51,270 the project delivery profession within life Arc. 149 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,290 How how many people are there within that profession? 150 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:58,080 How what size of the workforce is it and and and is that kind 151 00:07:58,090 --> 00:08:00,360 of a growing area with within life arc? 152 00:08:00,370 --> 00:08:01,650 Tell me. Tell me a bit more about that. 153 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,590 Yes, So what life up to date, we're relatively small 154 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,410 organisation in terms of people. So we've got about 300 employees 155 00:08:09,420 --> 00:08:11,190 today, but I would say we're growing. 156 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,950 So over the next year we'll probably add another you know 50 157 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,370 to 100 to that number. So we really are growing. 158 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,350 I would say we're largely a project based organisation. 159 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,250 So the majority of our employees are in project teams. 160 00:08:24,260 --> 00:08:28,350 Those teams are led by an appointed project team and then 161 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,809 we're made-up of members of our science organisation, members of 162 00:08:32,820 --> 00:08:35,789 our our partnerships teams, you know, folks in business 163 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:38,400 development and alliance management because we're very 164 00:08:38,409 --> 00:08:41,799 collaborative with external partners and we're also 165 00:08:41,809 --> 00:08:46,060 supported by enabling functions such as legal, communications, 166 00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:48,660 HR and finance. So in terms of the actual 167 00:08:48,670 --> 00:08:51,000 project management professionals, we've got quite a 168 00:08:51,010 --> 00:08:52,750 lean structure I would say supporting that. 169 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,780 So there's around about 15 of us with varying degrees of 170 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:00,180 expertise and competency that we assign to those portfolios and 171 00:09:00,190 --> 00:09:03,710 programmes based on the level of complexity they have. 172 00:09:03,810 --> 00:09:06,980 And then we provide guidance to others within the organisation 173 00:09:06,990 --> 00:09:10,820 who manage their own smaller, lower risk projects themselves. 174 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:13,130 And what about the kind of challenges and risks? 175 00:09:13,420 --> 00:09:16,690 You know, I talked before about the fact that, you know, this is 176 00:09:16,730 --> 00:09:19,210 maybe a different sector than most people are used to hearing 177 00:09:19,220 --> 00:09:23,270 about projects within other some unique challenges and risks that 178 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,830 either to life arc itself or to or to this particular sector. 179 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:31,410 Well, I would say in this sector it's a very high risk 180 00:09:31,420 --> 00:09:34,400 environment. Medical research is very risky. 181 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:36,650 You know, we expect a lot of the projects to fail. 182 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:39,650 Actually I think it was, there's a famous quote from Einstein, 183 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,630 you said if we knew it, what it was we were doing, we wouldn't 184 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,570 be calling it research, which I think is always quite funny. 185 00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:48,940 So I think when you're conducting have based research, 186 00:09:48,950 --> 00:09:52,180 often things just don't work out and actually that's when project 187 00:09:52,190 --> 00:09:55,940 management really comes into play because it's very difficult 188 00:09:56,010 --> 00:09:58,120 for project teams to drop their own baby. 189 00:09:58,190 --> 00:10:00,720 You know it really requires strong project management to 190 00:10:00,730 --> 00:10:04,220 hold people to their delivery milestones and their go no go 191 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:06,640 decision points. And when things aren't working 192 00:10:06,650 --> 00:10:09,600 out we need to kill them fast rather than allow the teams to 193 00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:11,840 kind of flog a dead horse. And it's really important 194 00:10:11,850 --> 00:10:15,400 therefore to define the measures of success up front to prevent 195 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:17,640 that drift. I would say another unique 196 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:21,280 challenge is you know we've got a very collaborative working 197 00:10:21,290 --> 00:10:26,120 one, lots of external partners. I'm saying in healthcare no one 198 00:10:26,130 --> 00:10:30,000 organisation can do it all. You need an ecosystem of players 199 00:10:30,050 --> 00:10:33,120 to bring new products to patients And so life art 200 00:10:33,130 --> 00:10:36,270 collaborates really heavily with others whether they you know, 201 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,110 they can bring their knowledge or access to novel technology or 202 00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:42,780 their ability to Co fund with us. 203 00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:45,970 We collaborate with a broad range of stakeholder groups. 204 00:10:45,980 --> 00:10:49,460 So we we we collaborate with the patients themselves, with other 205 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:53,680 charities, academics, pharma, biotech, the regulators, the 206 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,940 NHS. So I think that really does 207 00:10:55,950 --> 00:11:00,220 generate some quite unique challenges in terms of alliance 208 00:11:00,230 --> 00:11:03,010 management, where individuals and organisations have very 209 00:11:03,020 --> 00:11:06,210 different agendas, different priorities, So you have to work 210 00:11:06,220 --> 00:11:10,310 even harder at defining ways of working and ensuring alignment 211 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,140 on priorities when you have such a diverse ecosystem of partners 212 00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:17,640 that you're working with. There might be people listening 213 00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:20,470 to this today, Karen, who are maybe project professionals in 214 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,410 other sectors who are saying this sounds really interesting. 215 00:11:23,420 --> 00:11:26,470 I'd love to be involved in a project that's making this kind 216 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,110 of difference to to to to people and to the, you know, to society 217 00:11:30,220 --> 00:11:32,230 at large. But they'll think, oh, but you 218 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,390 know what, I haven't got a life sciences background or I don't 219 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,170 really know a lot about science. I mean, do do you need to have a 220 00:11:38,180 --> 00:11:41,570 a kind of scientific background to to work in your kind of 221 00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:43,890 organisation? Is it realistic to kind of 222 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:48,760 transfer between sectors into a very specialist area like yours? 223 00:11:50,060 --> 00:11:52,190 I mean I would say it helps. It helps to have that 224 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,110 background. I would say the vast majority of 225 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,010 our team do have degrees in life sciences but and when we have 226 00:11:58,020 --> 00:12:00,830 got project managers in our team who don't have a science 227 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,830 background but they are typically focused on our IT and 228 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,080 business change projects, we need project managers in that 229 00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:09,570 space as well because of the technology that we're working 230 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:12,050 with and just the smooth running of the organisations. 231 00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:14,610 So we don't have, you know, not everybody has that science 232 00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:17,330 background. I mean I consider myself a 233 00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:19,850 really accomplished project manager but when it came to 234 00:12:19,860 --> 00:12:23,140 building the extension on my house, I knew I couldn't project 235 00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:25,840 manage that because I just didn't have the knowledge to 236 00:12:25,850 --> 00:12:28,470 challenge around the timelines and the costs and I didn't have 237 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,700 the time to build that knowledge either to do a decent job. 238 00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:34,640 But it I mean if if people in other professions are thinking 239 00:12:34,650 --> 00:12:38,100 and and moving into this area. I mean I have to say you know 240 00:12:38,110 --> 00:12:41,900 what a wonderful area to work in in terms of that per purpose of 241 00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:44,190 life sciences. In terms of you know changing 242 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,380 the world for the better and helping people living with 243 00:12:46,390 --> 00:12:49,740 disease. I think you know you can move 244 00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:51,250 across. I said, I would say the 245 00:12:51,260 --> 00:12:54,260 different it's is if you're thinking and moving you just 246 00:12:54,270 --> 00:12:57,760 have to be willing to take the time to engage with the science. 247 00:12:57,770 --> 00:13:00,550 So, so not come thinking well you know that isn't for me. 248 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,890 I will just do the basic kind of project management. 249 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:06,670 I think if you engage with the science, you listen and you 250 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,330 learn, you know, I think then it's possible to develop 251 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:12,810 sufficient awareness and understanding in order to do 252 00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:16,330 that role effectively as well. I was kind of thinking of the 253 00:13:16,340 --> 00:13:18,760 maturity of the project profession compared to other 254 00:13:18,770 --> 00:13:23,250 professions I, I don't know HR, marketing, finance and so on. 255 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:27,130 And in those professions where they are also operating kind of 256 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:30,690 pan sector, you know if it's let's say marketing or legal or 257 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:33,890 probably probably good examples there, there is this kind of 258 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:36,770 expectation. I suppose that it's OK to move 259 00:13:36,780 --> 00:13:40,410 between sectors and yes, you might pick things up as you as 260 00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:42,850 you go along and as you say, you have to immerse yourself in the 261 00:13:42,860 --> 00:13:46,530 sector that you go into, but it's not really frowned upon in 262 00:13:46,540 --> 00:13:47,950 in that way. But I thought I find in the 263 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,850 project profession, there's keep people sometimes identify with 264 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,270 their sector before they identify with their profession. 265 00:13:55,380 --> 00:13:58,810 Uh, which is as I say, probably an indication of, UH, our 266 00:13:58,820 --> 00:14:01,230 maturity being a little bit further behind some of those 267 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,740 others, UH, but but I think that's also we're going to be an 268 00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:06,350 indication that we're making progress when there is that kind 269 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,930 of freedom of movement between sectors, so when we get there. 270 00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:11,370 Well, yeah. And I would say sometimes it 271 00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:15,230 really helps to have people that aren't so close to the science. 272 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,490 As I said, you know, we're trying to engage with lots of 273 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:19,230 stakeholders. We're trying to engage with the 274 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,650 patients and with the public on the work that we're doing. 275 00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:26,180 You know, and sometimes we forget the the words that we're 276 00:14:26,190 --> 00:14:28,790 using are jargon that other people don't understand because 277 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,290 we're so used to using them. So actually having people that 278 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:34,310 aren't so familiar on the team that can actually call you out 279 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,020 and say what does that acronym mean? 280 00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:37,920 Can you phrase that in a different way? 281 00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:41,020 Actually really helps with our communication with other people 282 00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:46,200 in the community. We're a PM, the only chartered 283 00:14:46,210 --> 00:14:48,740 membership organisation for the project profession. 284 00:14:49,410 --> 00:14:52,460 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 285 00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:55,240 support you need to make an impact delivering better 286 00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:58,870 projects with better outcomes. Plus you'll access exclusive 287 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,500 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 288 00:15:02,670 --> 00:15:05,760 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 289 00:15:05,770 --> 00:15:11,030 apm.org.uk, Because when projects succeed, society 290 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,060 benefits. Let's talk about the kind of 291 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:20,720 charity aspect of of life arc. I know that even the big, big 292 00:15:20,730 --> 00:15:22,920 corporates that I talk to are delivering projects. 293 00:15:22,930 --> 00:15:26,000 They find it difficult to recruit really talented project 294 00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:28,950 professionals. I guess trying to attract people 295 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,450 into the charity sector is, is that an advantage because lots 296 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:34,970 of people want to work in the charity sector and you know, 297 00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:37,960 because it gives you that real feel good factor that you're 298 00:15:37,970 --> 00:15:41,200 doing something directly for the public benefit. 299 00:15:41,250 --> 00:15:42,960 Or do you have the same challenges as the big 300 00:15:42,970 --> 00:15:45,100 corporates? It's just hard trying to find 301 00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:48,290 good people? Well, I think we take a lot of 302 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:52,050 kind of different approaches to, to help us identify the best 303 00:15:52,060 --> 00:15:55,170 people and would say, you know, first of all, we really work to 304 00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:58,130 build our networks. I'm connected to a network of 305 00:15:58,140 --> 00:16:00,220 project professionals, you know, through membership of 306 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:03,930 organisations like the PM for example, And by attending events 307 00:16:04,060 --> 00:16:07,470 and participating in that community really helps build the 308 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,590 network and actually actively contributing as well, whether 309 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,090 presenting the events or delivering webinars or or 310 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:15,880 podcasts like this one. That also helps to really raise 311 00:16:15,890 --> 00:16:19,610 the profile of the organisation that you're working for. 312 00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:22,380 I know actually a member of our team, Matt Franklin, he's an 313 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,370 early careers ambassador for the APM. 314 00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:27,810 So that's really actively encouraging our team and others 315 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:30,530 to attend early careers events. Another thing we do is 316 00:16:30,540 --> 00:16:33,810 mentoring. You know, I gain a lot from my 317 00:16:33,820 --> 00:16:36,920 mentors that I had in the early days of my career and I enjoy 318 00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:40,630 giving back to as a mentor now. And actually it's not just about 319 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,590 giving back. I gain personally from those 320 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,770 relationships, you know, expanding my own network and 321 00:16:45,780 --> 00:16:48,610 gaining fresh perspectives from another's experience. 322 00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:52,430 So I think all of that kind of helps to raise awareness of life 323 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,990 arc on what we do here. And then I think the other thing 324 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,950 we do track people is we do offer a really clear career path 325 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,650 for project professionals within Life Park. 326 00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:05,609 You know we have apprentices, project coordinators and then 327 00:17:05,619 --> 00:17:09,270 increasing maturity levels of of project programme and portfolio 328 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,210 managers all supported by learning and development plan. 329 00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:14,890 So I think that you know when people can see there's an 330 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,810 opportunity for progression both in their career and actually you 331 00:17:18,819 --> 00:17:22,349 know a fantastic place to work both based on why we exist and 332 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,210 what we're trying to do for society. 333 00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:27,569 I think we don't have too many problems in terms of attracting 334 00:17:27,579 --> 00:17:32,580 people to come to work for us. APM strap line, it's because 335 00:17:32,590 --> 00:17:36,060 when projects succeed, society benefits and it's trying to kind 336 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:39,760 of link I suppose project success with with with societal 337 00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:41,900 benefit. Now obviously the work that 338 00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:45,780 you're doing, clearly the outputs of those and outcomes of 339 00:17:45,790 --> 00:17:49,080 those of those projects are going to benefit society. 340 00:17:49,130 --> 00:17:51,450 But are there other opportunities? 341 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:54,050 Either through the way you deliver projects, the way you 342 00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:57,420 design them, and the things you decide to do where where you 343 00:17:57,430 --> 00:18:00,560 kind of add social value through the work that your team does at 344 00:18:00,570 --> 00:18:04,500 Life Arc? Well, I mean absolutely, I mean 345 00:18:04,510 --> 00:18:07,880 as you say, I mean at Life Park it's that societal benefit 346 00:18:07,890 --> 00:18:11,240 that's what really drives us. You know, we're really driven by 347 00:18:11,250 --> 00:18:13,980 that opportunity to address health problems facing 348 00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:17,180 communities, changing health options and outcomes for 349 00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:19,890 patients, improving the lives of people living with disease. 350 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:23,690 That has a much broader impact on society as a whole given the 351 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:27,720 economic impact of healthcare. So I mean we, we engage a lot 352 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:30,100 with the patients. We consider the patient voice to 353 00:18:30,110 --> 00:18:33,720 be absolutely critical to make sure that whatever we deliver is 354 00:18:33,730 --> 00:18:35,770 going to really meet their primary needs. 355 00:18:35,890 --> 00:18:39,590 We're really committed I would say to equity, diversity and 356 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,170 inclusion and that's both in terms of the patient populations 357 00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:46,770 that we aim to serve but also in the inclusive approach that we 358 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:50,090 take to delivering them as I say engaging the patients even 359 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:52,910 working within our teams, we share, we engage across the 360 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,110 organisation that everybody understands that the role that 361 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,250 they play in in terms of the project team and and everybody I 362 00:18:59,260 --> 00:19:02,290 suppose is is part of the success that we have. 363 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,890 We make sure that we share the knowledge that we generate about 364 00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:09,730 science and disease with others in in the community. 365 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:13,340 We still see we you know play a big role in training the 366 00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:17,260 scientists of tomorrow and the work we do, we're building the 367 00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:21,240 ecosystem necessary to deliver those healthcare innovations. 368 00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:23,980 So forming strategic partnerships with others in the 369 00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:26,550 fields. And then I would say our project 370 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,520 management life like we really monitor and evaluate the impact 371 00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:33,000 that we have. So we really learn from we're 372 00:19:33,010 --> 00:19:36,130 doing and channel our resources towards the projects that are 373 00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:37,320 really going to make a difference. 374 00:19:38,650 --> 00:19:41,390 We we couldn't possibly have a discussion, I don't think, 375 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,400 without drifting into the elephant in the room, the AI 376 00:19:45,410 --> 00:19:47,660 discussion. Everybody's talking about AI at 377 00:19:47,670 --> 00:19:49,880 the moment and I'm just wondering whether that's 378 00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:54,080 something that that's already starting to impact project work, 379 00:19:54,130 --> 00:19:58,730 you know, your organisation, and if not, what you think might be 380 00:19:58,740 --> 00:20:02,040 the impact over time as it starts to really bed in as a 381 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,000 standard technology? That's had a huge impact already 382 00:20:07,010 --> 00:20:10,220 when I think back to when I started out in science, so when 383 00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:15,510 I was at Glaxo, it was all 100% in the lab, you know, wet lab, 384 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,780 that's what I call where all the scientists were in the lab. 385 00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:20,680 Well, it's not like that today. I mean now as we look at our 386 00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:24,060 labs, you know, I would say it's getting towards half and half, 387 00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:27,700 50% dry lab, if you know what I mean by working in AI and 388 00:20:27,710 --> 00:20:29,840 machine learning rather than wet lab. 389 00:20:29,850 --> 00:20:33,610 So we're already seeing that big change and actually that creates 390 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:35,160 change for the project managers as well. 391 00:20:35,170 --> 00:20:37,680 So it's not just in the resources and the workforce, but 392 00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:41,390 there's a challenge for project managers and how we're storing, 393 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:43,970 processing and analysing that data. 394 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,310 Um, that requires kind of new infrastructures, new new tools, 395 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,310 new expertise. And so we're seeing big changes 396 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,440 there. And you know, I think it's going 397 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:58,350 to transform science even more. You know, researchers can 398 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,670 analyse enormous datasets now and and discover much more 399 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,060 complex relationships and I think that's really going to 400 00:21:05,070 --> 00:21:09,560 accelerate scientific discovery. I would say things like ChatGPT 401 00:21:09,570 --> 00:21:14,470 and AI art generators, they're already commonplace and you know 402 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,370 and you see some people concerned about the impact 403 00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:19,730 that's going to have. But I I'm not concerned at all. 404 00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:23,130 I think they're only going to increase our efficiency. 405 00:21:23,140 --> 00:21:25,010 We don't need to see them as a threat. 406 00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:28,630 It's just an A great opportunity and we just need to embrace them 407 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,070 as as much as possible and use them wisely. 408 00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:34,570 I want to talk a bit about project success, if I may. 409 00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:37,110 I'm kind of thinking more generally about the, you know, 410 00:21:37,150 --> 00:21:40,290 project profession. Now, I've seen recently that 411 00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:42,950 some people when they talk about project success, what they mean 412 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,170 is I've delivered my project on time, within budget to the 413 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:48,720 required specification. And then there's other people 414 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:51,210 that say no, no, no, hang on a minute, you can't possibly know 415 00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:53,700 that because just because you've delivered the project doesn't 416 00:21:53,710 --> 00:21:57,050 mean it's successful. You know, success is about long 417 00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:00,410 term benefits, realisation and we might not know that for maybe 418 00:22:00,420 --> 00:22:02,190 even 10 years. I mean I'm, I'm guessing for 419 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,880 some of the work that you're doing it's yes, you've got all 420 00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:07,200 the trials and everything else that you might do. 421 00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:10,870 But I guess it's going to be several years afterwards before 422 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,830 you get the kind of real mass data as to what the impact of of 423 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,310 some of your work has been. I mean how do you go about 424 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,850 defining what you what you mean by project success and is it the 425 00:22:21,860 --> 00:22:25,350 same in every project? Well, now it's different in 426 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,950 every project, which is why it makes it a bit of a challenge. 427 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,210 But what we do actually is we start with the end in mind. 428 00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:35,270 So you start with that, what's the impact that you want to have 429 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,670 in the world, You know, what do you wanna do for this patient 430 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,480 population? And then we work back from there 431 00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:42,860 and think, well, if is this the impact we want to have, then 432 00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:46,580 these are the outcomes we need. These are the outputs, These are 433 00:22:46,590 --> 00:22:48,710 the programmes of work we would need to do. 434 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,850 These are the people we would need to engage with. 435 00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:53,960 These are the inputs that we need and almost like build your 436 00:22:54,020 --> 00:22:57,190 road map of of projects that will lead you towards that 437 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,400 success and then also it gives you those measures on on the 438 00:23:00,410 --> 00:23:01,860 way. And these these are the 439 00:23:01,870 --> 00:23:03,520 activities we need to get underway. 440 00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:06,620 These are the outputs we're expecting, these are the outputs 441 00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:09,540 we need to get I think to achieve that ultimate impact 442 00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:11,840 because all the time we're working in that early 443 00:23:11,850 --> 00:23:14,740 translation space. So as you say the ultimate 444 00:23:14,750 --> 00:23:18,640 impact the patient isn't until probably five years down the 445 00:23:18,650 --> 00:23:21,300 line. So actually really mapping that 446 00:23:21,310 --> 00:23:23,840 out so you're understanding they're actually you're heading 447 00:23:23,850 --> 00:23:26,140 in the right direction is important. 448 00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:30,060 And I I mean in terms of that success, I mean with my project 449 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:33,020 management hat on, you could say it's all about having that clear 450 00:23:33,030 --> 00:23:35,930 road map, that clear business plan and project plan. 451 00:23:35,940 --> 00:23:39,190 And as you said, let's make sure we're clear on the aims and the 452 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,850 tasks and the the timelines, the customer resources. 453 00:23:41,860 --> 00:23:45,650 But actually it's always about the people I think in terms of 454 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:49,270 that project success about pulling together that highly 455 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,770 capable team who are really working towards that goal and 456 00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:54,530 communicating effectively with each other. 457 00:23:54,540 --> 00:23:57,830 That's the thing that actually is most likely to get you the 458 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,530 impact that you want at the end of the day. 459 00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:02,080 Let's talk a bit about leadership. 460 00:24:02,090 --> 00:24:04,530 Obviously, you know, I'm really inspired by our conversation 461 00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:06,180 today. You are a project leader in your 462 00:24:06,190 --> 00:24:07,950 own right. I guess you've obviously worked 463 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,680 with lots of other project leaders. 464 00:24:09,870 --> 00:24:13,520 What what makes a really good project leader really great one? 465 00:24:13,610 --> 00:24:18,140 Any particular characteristics? Well, I think as a project 466 00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:22,770 leader you you leading the team and so you it's about being 467 00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:25,380 inspiring you know and believing, believing. 468 00:24:25,390 --> 00:24:27,870 I mean look a lot of people there's been a lot of fantastic 469 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,690 project ideas but without a really strong sponsor leading 470 00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:35,390 and inspiring everybody else to get behind that, things won't 471 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,020 happen. So I think, I think believing in 472 00:24:38,030 --> 00:24:41,630 themselves and having that self a self-awareness as well team 473 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,730 building skills because nobody can achieve anything on their 474 00:24:44,740 --> 00:24:46,930 own. So actually being able to kind 475 00:24:46,940 --> 00:24:50,160 of garner the support of the team, to support them and work 476 00:24:50,170 --> 00:24:53,720 with them is really important and actually then be really 477 00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:58,370 focused on the outcomes, actions and outcomes to drive forward at 478 00:24:58,380 --> 00:25:00,540 pace. I mean in this in the scientific 479 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:03,940 field in particular, things move on so quickly. 480 00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:07,280 So you need to be moving at pace with that and being really 481 00:25:07,290 --> 00:25:09,740 flexible because actually as I said, things don't work out the 482 00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:11,100 way you thought they were going to do. 483 00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:14,840 And so you have to be able to spot that quickly and pivot and 484 00:25:14,850 --> 00:25:17,440 move and be flexible and then change the plan. 485 00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:21,030 So I think, I mean it's quite, it's quite a magical person that 486 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,600 we're expecting this project leader to have all these 487 00:25:23,610 --> 00:25:26,500 competences, but that's almost what you need. 488 00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:30,640 Somebody can do all those things and then just drive drive to 489 00:25:30,650 --> 00:25:33,090 deliver projects to successful completion. 490 00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:37,270 There might be some project professionals listening to this 491 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,250 who are maybe relatively new to the profession or early in their 492 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:44,010 career, and they're listening to, you know, where you've got 493 00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:47,250 to in your career and all those twists and turns that you 494 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:50,270 described at the beginning of our conversation and how you got 495 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,660 to be in the great role that you're in now. 496 00:25:52,670 --> 00:25:56,350 And I'd be thinking I'd love to do a role like Karen's one day. 497 00:25:56,420 --> 00:26:00,360 What advice would you give to those people who are trying to 498 00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:04,240 to get to that point in life? Well, I would, I would say 499 00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:07,040 dedicate time to your professional development. 500 00:26:07,050 --> 00:26:10,440 You're like you're I'm not done learning now, I'm quite old now. 501 00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:14,020 I would say you're never done learning and I would say so. 502 00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:19,120 So certainly at Life Arc we have a kind of 70, 2010 approach to 503 00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:22,220 our learning. So 70% is on the job trying to 504 00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:26,120 find projects and and assigning yourself to tasks that enable 505 00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:29,450 you to grow and development 20% learning from others. 506 00:26:29,460 --> 00:26:33,500 So certainly getting a coaching or a mentoring relationship, you 507 00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:37,880 know, attending conferences and webinars and then 10% doing 508 00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:41,500 studying itself more, you know, in the classroom stuff, taking 509 00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:45,740 courses, earning accreditations. I would really say find yourself 510 00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:48,870 a good mentor and then change mentors as you progress 511 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,570 throughout your career and certainly I would say as you 512 00:26:51,580 --> 00:26:54,240 progress in your giving back to others as well. 513 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,570 Yeah, I really like that. What you talking about there you 514 00:26:57,580 --> 00:27:01,750 you talking about 30% almost a third of your time is, is there 515 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,470 on kind of learning, development, shaping and so on, 516 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,360 you know and that's quite a big commitment, isn't it? 517 00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:08,610 But it sounds like that's what you've got the kind of 518 00:27:08,620 --> 00:27:11,330 investment you've got to make if you really want to make it in in 519 00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:14,220 in this field. So, yeah, brilliant Karen, it's 520 00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:16,930 been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. 521 00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:18,830 So thank you very much for coming along and thank you for 522 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,950 all the work that you and your colleagues are doing at Life 523 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,190 Arc. You're obviously making a huge 524 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,530 difference to society and it's great to see that in action and 525 00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:28,910 and thank you for your time today. 526 00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:30,970 Thank you very much for inviting me. 527 00:27:30,980 --> 00:27:38,950 Much appreciated. Thank you for joining us for 528 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,410 this episode of the APM Podcast. If you enjoyed it, don't forget 529 00:27:42,420 --> 00:27:45,790 to subscribe, leave us a review or contact us with your feedback 530 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,010 at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 531 00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:51,750 We're keen to hear from listeners with your ideas on the 532 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,570 topics you'd most like us to feature on the podcast in 2024. 533 00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:59,590 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, The Chartered Body 534 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,940 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 535 00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:05,310 visit apm.org.uk.