Welcome to the IPM podcast. OPM is to Childhood body for the
project profession. My name is Emma DeVito and I'm
the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host.
In this podcast. I'm speaking with Dan Jennings
who recently established a project management office at the
UK wing of global media agency wavemaker.
His team has worked on everything from every angle In
campaigns tied to the Wimbledon. Tennis tournament to delivering
product placement within Married.
At First Sight on Channel 4. And as those creative projects,
have become more complex, whether through multi-platform
content Partnerships with the arrival of new channels, such as
smart speakers and WhatsApp project management skills have
become even more in demand. I speaking to Dan about what
it's like to establish, a pmo from scratch.
And introduce professional project, management processes
and expertise intersect are unfamiliar with it.
What have been his main challenges?
And what advice would he give to others faced with a similar
situation? Let's find out.
First of all, welcome Dan, welcome to the OPM podcast.
No, I thank you so much for inviting me.
It's lovely to be here. I think a good place to start.
Would be to tell us a bit about Wave Maker.
We're a global media agency. I think there's 12 International
hubs around the world. There's over 7,000.
What we call wave makers. So, everybody in it is, we're
all aware, you know, we're all the Wave Maker, we're right
across the globe. So you know, La Miami New York
or places that I hope to visit us some point.
But at the minute, I'm in London, I'm on the south Bank in
London. Beautiful offices, overlooking.
Some Paul's overlooking the Thames, you know, stunning and
ultimately what we do. I mean I guess it's our job to
work with Brands. So work with clients such as
coal, gay is one of ours to knowns.
Like you'll know, Evian water, for instance, a Eurostar,
William Hill and it's our job to kind of work with those Brands
to help them, to ultimately, understand how they should
connect with their customers when they should connect with
their customers. And we're so, you know, how do
you show up with your advertising?
And it's our job should be specialist in that place to kind
of put them in the right. Ace at the right time and then
obviously get them in front of the right people.
So it's our job to make their advertising work ultimately.
When I first started, I had a small project management team in
my area, the business. And we started talking about
project management a lot, and I realized the kind of six to
eight people who reported in to me with the only ones listening
because people think they're not doing unless you've got a title
of project manager. People think you're not, they're
not doing project management and so much of everything we do
across the entire agency. Yes, there's a lot of business
as usual stuff, but there's a lot of Rex you know, a lot of
project management right across the work that we do right across
the business. And even those skills that you
talked about in project management, yeah, they're
critical to every single role whether that's problem-solving
or stakeholder management relationships communication, all
those things. So, yeah, project Management's
and yeah, absolutely. The skill set is kind of sit
within every single element of our business.
How long ago did you start? What were you hired to do?
And how has your role changed over that time?
So I started in February 20 19 add a bit of a squiggly career
which we might touch on at some point.
Having come from kind of radio and broadcasting and my
background was not traditional project management.
Did you go through project management?
Training, kind of past. I was a producer, the BBC, at
one point like when I left school and I got trained to be a
journalist His host who when you think about it is so much of
that is project management. Right?
Because it's you know the interview or the slot that
you've got his start and end is temporary.
You do this different things every single day, you.
So those skills I kind of was just learning without knowing
that their project management skills really Neo never giving
in that title and I did like a breakfast show.
For instance for gosh probably about 10 years and every day you
are planning a new show. You content.
What's the thing going to be tomorrow?
We're going to talk about you know now ultimately when you
think about it now, You know that with my project management
on it was all but I was managing a projects that breakfast show
was a project you know we had a goal was to get to the more
listeners and what kind of stuff you had an objective.
You had a plan to get there. You had stakeholders your
communication skills all project management.
Slowly eventually kind of led me to this thing where I fill out a
radio a bit. And I was kind of like I'm going
to do next and this idea that these are kind of transferable
skills, and I start my moves behind the scenes in radio and
started managing branded content and it was a mixture of kind of
the things that Love about creative a seeing creating work
when working with clients and Brands and things, but also
project management. And I started then kind of
really trying to getting more into the kind of understanding
of the language and the terminology and looking at, you
know, resources, like the APM stuff.
And then when I arrived at wave, maker is a brand new role, it
was so is what we call content Partnerships.
So not kind of traditional project management as such, but
if you imagine William Hill response, During I'm a
celebrity, South Africa, a few weeks back or sponsoring the sky
Max Channel. You know, you're watching TV or
see the sponsorship credits, it could be something like that or
it could be. You're listening to Absolute
radio place. I used to work at and you're
hearing content was created with Morrison's or there's a big
competition on are you know, they're giving away stuff in a
fun game or even the other week over the baftas one of our
clients piano Cruz has sponsored the baftas.
So it's those types of projects that were all laid out of the
content team. So I was I was heading up
Judgment in the Wave Maker content with work with our kind
of Partners ITV and channel, four, and things like that on
all kinds of things, you know, even like Nationwide.
So sponsoring the lionesses on ITV.
So really cool Brands, doing really cool, exciting stuff.
You know, and it is smaller things.
I mumsnet an amazing kind of hugely influential platform.
It's hugely important so that audience, but we've been doing
some amazing work with them with Lego with that, with the
Legoland Discovery Centers. So I was running those At the
team who are running those projects, my brief was to come
in and kind of, you know, it's like I say starting from scratch
saying up all the new processes ways of working.
Looking at how we did things currently how we could
constantly improve and that kind of end-to-end thing.
But I had a really small team of project managers I think
probably it was like six to eight but lots of experience
which was which is always helpful.
But the other thing I had was so we have the whole team was
pretty about 40 people. So I had kind of this dotted
line approach where you know, they had to kind of reporting to
me for the ways of you all the ways of working the new Is we're
going to be right across the team and the whole team could
run projects. It's just that my team were
properly specialist. So yes we have to kind of design
everything, build everything, you know, and then, constantly
iterate, you know, what's a better way of doing things
working with the partners to working with ICD channel for
people like that. So yeah, it's a really a really
cool, really exciting. Some really great kind of
project work. And I think as we went along
that route, you realize that you need that kind of shared
language when you talk about projects and I think where some
of The things I've kind of learned with the APM and the
apprenticeship which we'll talk about.
I'm sure became just so so important, but yeah.
The initial thing was was content.
And then my role is, since then, as kind of expanded out to where
I'm now, kind of central within the agency.
So creating our first pmo pmo of me and my team and we still
deliver all the content stuff. But also things like, you know,
operational initiatives projects that are kind of more like
business operational. I would say.
So for instance, we're kind of projects.
And then I'm looking at is, you know, how we can Do things in a
more efficient way, how we can free up people's time.
It's called make space and we also like a project where we're
building out a learning development program, you know,
these are these are not content projects.
This is not my background, but project management is enabler
and the skills in that are enabling us to do this, right,
Central to the agency which is, which is huge.
Big difference, what up in the benefits that you've you and the
team have brought to the business and was it tough
convincing those in the organization to believe that you
could need to do those things? Project management was actually
worth it, the benefits, I think I think that shared language and
comes coming through from a pmo so that everybody is talking
about projects in the same way and also you know, every p.m.
Lysa Works slightly differently and we all bring our own
personalities to a projects and our own ways of working.
But there are some things that should be standardized in
businesses. I think.
So we brought some of that standardization so that if you
were, I don't know the mark. Head of marketing at Nationwide
and you were working with one of my team on a project, but then
the next time around is a different member of my team.
You weren't getting a completely different experience, you know,
there were similarities, we weren't kind of just doing
things in a completely different way was enjoined out so things
like that which sounds so simple when you talk about it.
But was a real kind of game changer of kind of adding that
discipline into in two ways of working, I think the benefits to
the agency in terms of getting stuff done and that's wonderful.
Yeah. I remember when we started with
the pmo journey, I kind of I was really, I was really Keen to
talk to all the kind of senior stakeholders.
So X Co are agency leadership board and I had all these kind
of one's the ones on sister. It must have been drunk over
that all these ones ones on teams talking about it and I was
interviewing them. And somebody says to me this
lovely quote, which my colleagues awake makeup or you
won't take me for but said if we are going to look and this must
be true of so many organizations were those.
They said if we were to look at all the initiatives that we've
ever done, we'd launched an initiative.
Of to do it. And it's still my favorite quote
now because we're one of those businesses, I think so many
business like this, where you launch things and then they're
led by light senior leaders and then you don't deliver the
change. Maybe you're expecting.
Or they kind of fizzle out. They don't have that momentum
and then the net the year after another thing kind of gets
launched and eventually people go, hold on, what is that thing
before this is this the same? Yeah yeah.
Well as project management whether it's pmo or just those
skills means that we got stuff done.
We hope it was for Accounts and suddenly things were changing
things. You know you're adding the
benefits are that you're actually doing what you say,
you're going to be doing rather than kind of coming up with a
new plan every year and then not executing it.
So yeah, that would be the biggest thing and what are the
challenges you faced was that hard to sail, to explain to
others what proper project management is and what the pmo
would do project management account have a bad rap, right?
Because I think depending on your experience of the project
manager, and that, you know, that Journey you've been through
Open on great projects and we've all been on lousy projects that
don't them move forward and go anywhere.
And I think sometimes project management can have a PR the pr
the perception rather is that its bureaucratic we're adding
hurdles in the way people can't, it's a barrier to getting things
done and I think we definitely had a bit of that where there
wasn't that belief in the fact that people thought project
management was Project managers and I think they're kind of real
changing point, was that kind of understanding that we're
talking? About how we deliver work you
know and I think you know, even even sometimes not calling it
project management, calling it delivery or strategic
implementation or something different because I think people
immediately, the perception was that project management
sometimes is admin or it's, you know, or disability wrong.
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, exactly. It's like the red tape is, as
you know, is its, we won't get to the answer, won't get into
that thing because the project managers will ask us to do this
and it's that, well, yeah, sometimes approaching It is our
sincere thing because it will, but most the time I'll add value
and it will get you to where you need to do and or in my, you
know, it might mean the project isn't worth doing, you know, all
those kind of important things that we know.
But yes, there's definitely a bit of perception thing.
I think there was also, I mean, one of the biggest game changers
for me was, so this was before we started on the pmo.
Really? It was we created a project
management apprenticeship like a we called it project Leadership
Academy and rather than it being entry level into The agency was
a bit of that, but it was also for people right across the
agency to sign up and join and learn project management skills.
Okay? What like in their own time, all
they were given to people on the job.
So there was a bit of that time that they got, they got in
there, got study leaves, I'm and all that kind of stuff, but it
was the project management level 4.
So the APM they got to do their project management
qualification. We had 20 people initially on
the first cohort including myself so that was a shock to
the system going back to you know, reading books.
Study guides and revision and writing essays and all that, but
it was an amazing experience because it was it wasn't just my
team. Although some lighting did it,
it was right across the agency and every single, specialism,
every single discipline, how do you work alongside the other
people in the organization. So when you've got projects to
work on are you involved very early on in those projects right
from the start or do people come to you?
How I want to know the relationship?
You have with the people who come to you with the project?
So I guess not necessarily the Internal projects maybe that is
true but for client kind of lead projects as well.
How do you work? So the people side of things, I
guess I'm interested in. Yes, there's a mixture of that.
I think some of our teams will work very, they'll check in with
us on there on the relevant plans.
So, as an example, we've just built a really cool AI
conversational recruitment tool for the Royal Navy.
So when this was a three-year project from the first kind of
conversations, where by Royal Navy wanted to I knew they
needed to change their recruitment model.
So this was a conversation going back.
Yeah going back three years. And I think when you think about
project management, usually what happens is, the business case is
dealt with. You know, you the requirements
Gathering. You get to the kind of thing
where the project manager management without hand, over
the project manager will then deliver the projects whether
it's the build, or the first iteration of the tall or
whatever. But actually project management
was right there from the start. So we were involved in the what
we call Discovery which is like you know, the Fact-finding piece
of work of, you know what's possible, you know, how should
this work? What do we want to propose to
the client? Which is really unusual thing?
Because usually it just gets handed over when it's going.
It's kind of ready to go or sore sold for want of a better
expression and we, yeah, we were there checking in all the time
but then some there are some other projects which get agreed
and then they get handed over to the p.m. team.
So the pmo to deliver do you have a particular project
management approach and methodology that you like to
use? I talked about toolkit and I
think some, some projects in the partnership space, particularly
lend themselves to a kind of waterfall approach.
We talk about agile quite a bit, but I think there's different
meanings on that. Yeah, we take the best bits and
we use the bits that are in our toolkit for the right projects,
and the right, kind of the right way.
I think sometimes if we got really technical on some of the
project management stuff and did things by the body of knowledge
book, perhaps, we'd probably put our clients off, you know, I
think, I think part of it for me is about how, you know, we are
mad teams with the toolkit. And then you pick the right
things in the right way, like I say some things are standardized
but it's about picking the right tool for the right job, for the
right project, for the right stakeholders, all those things
as well. What advice would you give to
others who are perhaps setting up a pmo or its early days?
What advice would tips would you give to them about getting the
team to work together? So when I first proposed the
whole pmo thing, I wrote, you know, I'd like I said, my
background is already 0, right? I'd never I hadn't come from a
training like Official train, if you like more business school or
any of that stuff. So when I was thinking about,
how could this kind of the only use of the importance of the
agency was adding value through the apprenticeship, I wrote the
biggest longest business plan you've ever seen in your entire
life. How many pages?
Oh, my God, for you at 17, you know, just total Overkill.
I didn't know what I was doing in terms of writing a business
plan. Nobody taught me that, you know,
I'd watch a couple YouTube videos and surprise surprise,
you know? This massive document.
No, nobody even opened. I don't think they can get red.
And so, I think my advice is Start showing value, just crack
on and that's kind of what I did.
It wasn't my role title actually the point of which starting pmo
my road to Iceland changed, I haven't got a promotion, I
hadn't, you know, I just started doing and started with the team
working with them to to kind of go.
Let's show some value. Start leaving out of the
projects that were our safe space.
If you like that content, but we started allocating 10% of our
time. So the business operational
projects and just started doing. So I think that's probably the
biggest thing was kind of just crack on.
On and start showing value. I think that when I look back at
that, I cringe their business plan.
Now, when I look back at it there were so many things I
wanted to do, you know me because you know, I'd read all
these pmo books and I'd I was got through the apprenticeship
and I was kind of, you know, I knew that it can add value in so
many areas, but I kind of shut them all in this one plan and
it's just me, you know, there's this the resources me and it's
like actually, you know, figure out where you want to start and
start adding value quickly as well, you know, you, it can take
forever, some projects take forever.
You've got, you've got to kind of show value quickly to the
organization. I think also getting on board.
You're doing the interviews understanding where there's
consensus on where project management or a pmo, can add
value the types of projects and then within that down.
So you can kind of prioritize, you've got the voices of the
senior leaders in the organization, but you've
hopefully come to some kind of consensus where they are joined
up, in terms of the value that it can offer.
And then for me, the biggest thing as well is like, is that
whole thing around Learning and trial and error and just
constantly looking forward constantly iterating.
I'm one of those people who I can't sit.
Still, you know, I'm constantly looking at the next thing, which
I think is probably true of project management.
Generally right, we all kind of went, you know, we ought to get
to the next Milestone. So it says, yeah.
So I think that's about kind of. How can you just constantly
improve the processes? The ways of working the
relationships and just, you know, just dial out by 1%.
Interesting to talk about the learnings, and taking learnings
free, from everything you work on a moving on.
How do you go about doing that? Yes, we do it.
On every single project will have spent on the length of the
project. So we might see it throughout
the project, so all be every quarter, sometimes we'll do it
every status meeting. If you know, how are we doing,
is there anything we can improve?
And then we take that feedback and bring it back into that
project. But then we also have a
centralized but database I suppose where we can pull all
that learning. So the so we can see where there
are similarities, I'll give you an example.
So, one of the things that's the Zup sometimes on projects is
that stakeholders? Don't like too many emails I
think we're all probably. We're all probably experienced
that silly post covid. I think there's just this just
in we're just overloaded with communication whether it's you
know teams Chatters on your messenger saying or emails are
inbox, never being empty, that kind of stuff.
And we had just couple of bits of feedback was that, I'm just
getting. So I just got too much too much,
email too much emails coming through.
I can't deal with it. It's not just our stuff, but,
you know, it is just volume of things in their day and simple
things. I was like, well, okay, why
don't we? Obvious, when you say that it's
but let's just start the day with a call and let's do that
instead, which is okay, I guess a bit kind of agile, methodology
of the stand-up. We didn't call it that we didn't
use the exact same framework. This leads me to ask you about
the culture that you have tried to create where you are.
So in order to get people to speak quite honestly about the
mistakes, they've made, to be honest, all the difficulties,
they face honestly, so that something can be done and they
can get the support they need. How do you achieve it?
So when I was kind of trying to learn more about project
management and the leadership side of things, I came across
Holland Ellis and he is a couple of books, I read.
But one of them talks about the importance of project
leadership, to the point that I think I've sold colonists.
I think I probably stole everything that book and just
presented to my team and they talked about their technical
skills, right? And they thought about, he talks
about the project management skills than, like those your
fundamentals. Absolutely.
You need to understand how you deliver into Improv.
As you need to understand how to initiate has a plan and to
execute all those things that you learn on the APM learning
portal, you learn throughout your listen to your podcast,
those kind of technical skills. But then the other two things
are around leadership and culture and without those it
made this really good quote which again I've stolen which
was the fact that when you when you've been on a great project
nobody remembers the Gantt chart.
Yeah, you remember the person and his people who run projects
in even in a world that we're turning into with AI and chat to
be too. And all that stuff, right?
We still will always need great project managers and people on
projects I wholeheartedly believe that.
So we talked about how you have to be create environments that
people want to do great work, can you give us some specifics
and tips for people who might be listening right now to keep?
Yes, I want that kind of culture where people falling over
themselves to work with us. Have you come across anything
that really works. I think one of the biggest
frustrations people have when they're on projects in my
experience is that you don't feel your voices heard.
You know, we're, we have a lot of projects where you will have
some really strong characters. You know, media agencies are
full of really strong characters who are in Christ.
There's so clever, throw me that ridiculous brain boxes in our
organization who are also they will, they are so experienced.
They sometimes it can take over a meeting.
They can take over projects and you'll have You people joined,
who would then sit back and not kind of lean into the project
because you can't get a word in edgeways.
So I think one of the biggest things we've talked about on is
making sure as a p.m. that you're you're engaging with
everybody, you're making sure that everybody feels included in
a project so that they feel they're adding value because
obviously, that's what, you know, nobody comes into work to
do a terrible job each day. Yeah, you want to do with?
Yeah you want to done some great work and I think it's the PM's
job to facilitate that make sure that the people within their
projects in you know you're all familiar responsible for them.
It's not necessarily that you know, You're not line managing
them, but for the purposes that our project is, they're plugged
into you and you're responsible for them.
So it's the parents job to make sure that they're supporting
them. That they're guiding them
through the projects that they're answering questions that
they're, you know, they're open, they're honest, they're
recognizing where things have fallen off track and the
supporting to get it back on track again.
Let you say maybe. Yeah, maybe that sounds obvious,
but until you kind of really look at applying that, I think
sometimes in my experience, working with people working with
project management, you would it would just be like, well, that's
the Milestone, you've left the deadline, you got Set regardless
of that, there's no empathy and I think bringing that in the
empathy to project management and the project through Runners.
As look at some massive game changing, have there been any
surprises along the kind of pmo Journey?
And will you indulge us with them or did you plan everything
down to the nth degree in your 70 page business plan?
And I did it was, I didn't follow, I think the it was about
the surprise. I think some of it was about Out
like how nice and rewarding the little winds are.
So even I mean this sounds Daft but even like at the beginning
of the year we present we have a company meeting and there was a
presentation of some of the kind of structural changes or
whatever and you know standard business stuff but project
management was on the slide of all these departments.
All this specialisms was on there right next to all the
other Specialists and so I could talk about like all these yeah
brilliantly brainy people in all these really important things
and that Never happened. Ever in a project management,
was not talked about in that way, and I think that says it
was a little wind surprise me to the point.
I got a bit emotional, see on screen that kind of recognition
of the work he doing and your team does, how do you think
that's part of a broader trend of organizations recognizing
project management as a function?
Something valuable in increasingly needs to be done
properly. Yeah, 100% not just I mean the
technical skills. Absolutely as well.
Also, So there's softer skills that we talked about like the
leadership the empathy on project on projects particular.
I think we've always known like in leadership space, bit more,
like senior leaders need to be more empathetic, whatever.
It's like, but actually now I think people are seeing that
that's true on every piece of work and projects and whatever.
I remember reading there is in your brilliant project magazine.
There was this wonderful article with Channel 4 and that really
inspired me because it was kind of like, you know, here's a
creative partner that we work with day in day out.
Brilliant at what they do. So creative but They were
talking about how they had put pmo into the sensor, their
operation, and they were changing their language to not
talk about projects to about delivery, those kind of things.
And suddenly what you've got is a is project management being
part of the Strategic vision of that company, you know?
So yeah. Absolutely I think more and more
is becoming important. I think you see kind of articles
about, you know, what could organizations have you know,
Chief projects officers in the future.
And that kind of thing that's never been discussed in mice,
from what I've seen in my time doing this What do you get from
project management? So you've come from a very
creative background and people wouldn't necessarily think of
project management as being creative.
That that's the kind of I think that's probably a false concept.
But what do you personally enjoy about project management is that
collaboration thing? Which sounds cheesy.
I know but you know, you if you've got the right mix of
people on the project so it's like a really diverse mix of
talent your hearing you voices better, Oh, Buzz.
Kind of, you know, and and and then the other thing is I seeing
your stuff out in the world. Yep.
That's hugely rewarding because you actually see the point of
projects is you see the things going out into the world, right?
This isn't PA. You where's just always ticking
along and never gets done, though.
It's finished, you know, the great thing about it, the really
rewarding thing for me is that that work thing goes out into
the world. Have you got any advice for
those at the other end of the scale.
So any advice on how to deal with senior?
Sex or c-suite around project management and, and their
understanding of it. I think it's just showing don't
doing this, the work and showing the value and I think
understanding that you need to deliver things quickly and you
don't always have time to show value.
So it's looking at where the quick wins that you can show
value to see sweet in that sense.
Don't get too bogged down in the tools and the tag their
important absolutely important and crucial, you know, that, you
know, those things inside our absolute.
That's kind of, you know, there's that should be a given
but look at how you can Of customized and be flexible and
tailor those to fit with your business because the every
single business is different. Everybody you need, you need to
kind of arm yourself with everything in the toolkit to be
able to speak the language of see sweep, you know, something.
Some people love like, reading a plowing through all the detail.
They love all the, you know, the graphs and the status and they
big long reports and all that kind of stuff.
But in other people is all about storytelling.
It's just about, you know, how do you get?
You know, they're not going to read through your day, so
they're not going to look through all your graphs and
Whether it's just tailoring that approach to the stakeholders and
I think that's kind of particularly true of the people
at that. You never got his time to read
some Supply through my 70 page business plan.
It was anything else you want to talk through cold a lot and lots
of valuable advice and you know, it's exciting times I think.
Yeah. I think it is exciting.
I think it's it's a journey, right?
So it's like is that exciting thing is like it's never done
and I think that's an age difference of projects right?
Usually going to project it finishes your off but the pmo is
We how do we, how do we evolve? How do we improve, how do we
change our ways of working? And I think whatever's to come,
in terms of, you know, artificial intelligence.
And we'd be having a very different conversation in five
years time if we were doing this because there's so much stuff
coming at us day in day out, that we need to embrace and that
could be terrifying for your arm guy.
What my 47? Yeah, that could be really
scary. So God my goodness me, there's
all this stuff that I've got to learn and there's no, our
computers are going to do some of these bits and bobs.
Well, that's really exciting. And so I think, you know, for a
pmo perspective is that, you know, and certainly for us at
wave makers, kind of like, this is only the beginning really.
It's like where this can go, is just really exciting, okay?
Thanks Dan. Brilliant to talk to you.
Thank you for sharing your time with us, and your wisdom and
wishing you. The best of luck with all the
projects you you work on. Thank you for having me.
Thanks again to Dan for joining us and to you for listening to
the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for
more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
podcast. We'd welcome you to get in touch
with your comments feedback and suggestions by e-mailing us at a
p.m. podcast at sink publishing .co.uk this podcast has been
brought to you by APM to chartered body.
For the project profession, for more information on a p.m. visit
AP m dot org.uk.