1 00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:11,900 Welcome to the IPM podcast. OPM is to Childhood body for the 2 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:14,900 project profession. My name is Emma DeVito and I'm 3 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:18,500 the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:21,700 In this podcast. I'm speaking with Dan Jennings 5 00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:24,100 who recently established a project management office at the 6 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:26,900 UK wing of global media agency wavemaker. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,000 His team has worked on everything from every angle In 8 00:00:30,008 --> 00:00:33,500 campaigns tied to the Wimbledon. Tennis tournament to delivering 9 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:35,000 product placement within Married. 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,700 At First Sight on Channel 4. And as those creative projects, 11 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:41,400 have become more complex, whether through multi-platform 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,300 content Partnerships with the arrival of new channels, such as 13 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:47,500 smart speakers and WhatsApp project management skills have 14 00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:51,100 become even more in demand. I speaking to Dan about what 15 00:00:51,100 --> 00:00:53,400 it's like to establish, a pmo from scratch. 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,200 And introduce professional project, management processes 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,100 and expertise intersect are unfamiliar with it. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,400 What have been his main challenges? 19 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,099 And what advice would he give to others faced with a similar 20 00:01:04,099 --> 00:01:06,400 situation? Let's find out. 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,600 First of all, welcome Dan, welcome to the OPM podcast. 22 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:17,000 No, I thank you so much for inviting me. 23 00:01:17,008 --> 00:01:19,100 It's lovely to be here. I think a good place to start. 24 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:21,500 Would be to tell us a bit about Wave Maker. 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,800 We're a global media agency. I think there's 12 International 26 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,200 hubs around the world. There's over 7,000. 27 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,900 What we call wave makers. So, everybody in it is, we're 28 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,400 all aware, you know, we're all the Wave Maker, we're right 29 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,900 across the globe. So you know, La Miami New York 30 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:36,900 or places that I hope to visit us some point. 31 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:40,300 But at the minute, I'm in London, I'm on the south Bank in 32 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:42,200 London. Beautiful offices, overlooking. 33 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,100 Some Paul's overlooking the Thames, you know, stunning and 34 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:48,600 ultimately what we do. I mean I guess it's our job to 35 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,500 work with Brands. So work with clients such as 36 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:54,100 coal, gay is one of ours to knowns. 37 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:56,700 Like you'll know, Evian water, for instance, a Eurostar, 38 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:00,200 William Hill and it's our job to kind of work with those Brands 39 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,500 to help them, to ultimately, understand how they should 40 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:05,800 connect with their customers when they should connect with 41 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,900 their customers. And we're so, you know, how do 42 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:09,199 you show up with your advertising? 43 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,700 And it's our job should be specialist in that place to kind 44 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:15,100 of put them in the right. Ace at the right time and then 45 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:16,600 obviously get them in front of the right people. 46 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,500 So it's our job to make their advertising work ultimately. 47 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:22,300 When I first started, I had a small project management team in 48 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:24,400 my area, the business. And we started talking about 49 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,100 project management a lot, and I realized the kind of six to 50 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:30,800 eight people who reported in to me with the only ones listening 51 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,000 because people think they're not doing unless you've got a title 52 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,600 of project manager. People think you're not, they're 53 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,500 not doing project management and so much of everything we do 54 00:02:38,500 --> 00:02:40,600 across the entire agency. Yes, there's a lot of business 55 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,200 as usual stuff, but there's a lot of Rex you know, a lot of 56 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,000 project management right across the work that we do right across 57 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,700 the business. And even those skills that you 58 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:49,500 talked about in project management, yeah, they're 59 00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:52,900 critical to every single role whether that's problem-solving 60 00:02:52,900 --> 00:02:55,500 or stakeholder management relationships communication, all 61 00:02:55,508 --> 00:02:58,500 those things. So, yeah, project Management's 62 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:00,700 and yeah, absolutely. The skill set is kind of sit 63 00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:03,200 within every single element of our business. 64 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:07,300 How long ago did you start? What were you hired to do? 65 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:10,000 And how has your role changed over that time? 66 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:15,200 So I started in February 20 19 add a bit of a squiggly career 67 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:16,500 which we might touch on at some point. 68 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:20,600 Having come from kind of radio and broadcasting and my 69 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,300 background was not traditional project management. 70 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:25,500 Did you go through project management? 71 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:28,900 Training, kind of past. I was a producer, the BBC, at 72 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:32,800 one point like when I left school and I got trained to be a 73 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,400 journalist His host who when you think about it is so much of 74 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,200 that is project management. Right? 75 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,300 Because it's you know the interview or the slot that 76 00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:43,100 you've got his start and end is temporary. 77 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:45,700 You do this different things every single day, you. 78 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:48,200 So those skills I kind of was just learning without knowing 79 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,900 that their project management skills really Neo never giving 80 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:53,200 in that title and I did like a breakfast show. 81 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,800 For instance for gosh probably about 10 years and every day you 82 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,700 are planning a new show. You content. 83 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:01,000 What's the thing going to be tomorrow? 84 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,000 We're going to talk about you know now ultimately when you 85 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,300 think about it now, You know that with my project management 86 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:08,300 on it was all but I was managing a projects that breakfast show 87 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:11,500 was a project you know we had a goal was to get to the more 88 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:13,900 listeners and what kind of stuff you had an objective. 89 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:17,300 You had a plan to get there. You had stakeholders your 90 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:18,899 communication skills all project management. 91 00:04:18,899 --> 00:04:22,600 Slowly eventually kind of led me to this thing where I fill out a 92 00:04:22,608 --> 00:04:24,300 radio a bit. And I was kind of like I'm going 93 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:27,500 to do next and this idea that these are kind of transferable 94 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,700 skills, and I start my moves behind the scenes in radio and 95 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:33,600 started managing branded content and it was a mixture of kind of 96 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,200 the things that Love about creative a seeing creating work 97 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,500 when working with clients and Brands and things, but also 98 00:04:40,500 --> 00:04:42,700 project management. And I started then kind of 99 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:46,200 really trying to getting more into the kind of understanding 100 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,700 of the language and the terminology and looking at, you 101 00:04:49,707 --> 00:04:51,600 know, resources, like the APM stuff. 102 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:55,600 And then when I arrived at wave, maker is a brand new role, it 103 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,700 was so is what we call content Partnerships. 104 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,900 So not kind of traditional project management as such, but 105 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:04,500 if you imagine William Hill response, During I'm a 106 00:05:04,508 --> 00:05:09,000 celebrity, South Africa, a few weeks back or sponsoring the sky 107 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,900 Max Channel. You know, you're watching TV or 108 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:13,100 see the sponsorship credits, it could be something like that or 109 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:14,500 it could be. You're listening to Absolute 110 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:16,900 radio place. I used to work at and you're 111 00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:20,000 hearing content was created with Morrison's or there's a big 112 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,400 competition on are you know, they're giving away stuff in a 113 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,200 fun game or even the other week over the baftas one of our 114 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,500 clients piano Cruz has sponsored the baftas. 115 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:31,500 So it's those types of projects that were all laid out of the 116 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:33,900 content team. So I was I was heading up 117 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,400 Judgment in the Wave Maker content with work with our kind 118 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,800 of Partners ITV and channel, four, and things like that on 119 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,300 all kinds of things, you know, even like Nationwide. 120 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:46,400 So sponsoring the lionesses on ITV. 121 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,500 So really cool Brands, doing really cool, exciting stuff. 122 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:50,800 You know, and it is smaller things. 123 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,300 I mumsnet an amazing kind of hugely influential platform. 124 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:57,800 It's hugely important so that audience, but we've been doing 125 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,700 some amazing work with them with Lego with that, with the 126 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:04,100 Legoland Discovery Centers. So I was running those At the 127 00:06:04,108 --> 00:06:06,100 team who are running those projects, my brief was to come 128 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:08,500 in and kind of, you know, it's like I say starting from scratch 129 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:11,100 saying up all the new processes ways of working. 130 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:13,000 Looking at how we did things currently how we could 131 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,200 constantly improve and that kind of end-to-end thing. 132 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,900 But I had a really small team of project managers I think 133 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:21,500 probably it was like six to eight but lots of experience 134 00:06:21,500 --> 00:06:23,000 which was which is always helpful. 135 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,000 But the other thing I had was so we have the whole team was 136 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,600 pretty about 40 people. So I had kind of this dotted 137 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,400 line approach where you know, they had to kind of reporting to 138 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,700 me for the ways of you all the ways of working the new Is we're 139 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:37,300 going to be right across the team and the whole team could 140 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:38,800 run projects. It's just that my team were 141 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,700 properly specialist. So yes we have to kind of design 142 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:45,400 everything, build everything, you know, and then, constantly 143 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,900 iterate, you know, what's a better way of doing things 144 00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:50,300 working with the partners to working with ICD channel for 145 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:52,400 people like that. So yeah, it's a really a really 146 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,600 cool, really exciting. Some really great kind of 147 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,100 project work. And I think as we went along 148 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,300 that route, you realize that you need that kind of shared 149 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:03,800 language when you talk about projects and I think where some 150 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,200 of The things I've kind of learned with the APM and the 151 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:07,400 apprenticeship which we'll talk about. 152 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,400 I'm sure became just so so important, but yeah. 153 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,500 The initial thing was was content. 154 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:15,100 And then my role is, since then, as kind of expanded out to where 155 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:17,400 I'm now, kind of central within the agency. 156 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,900 So creating our first pmo pmo of me and my team and we still 157 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:24,800 deliver all the content stuff. But also things like, you know, 158 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,400 operational initiatives projects that are kind of more like 159 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,000 business operational. I would say. 160 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,000 So for instance, we're kind of projects. 161 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,800 And then I'm looking at is, you know, how we can Do things in a 162 00:07:34,808 --> 00:07:37,200 more efficient way, how we can free up people's time. 163 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,100 It's called make space and we also like a project where we're 164 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:42,100 building out a learning development program, you know, 165 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:43,700 these are these are not content projects. 166 00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:46,900 This is not my background, but project management is enabler 167 00:07:46,900 --> 00:07:49,500 and the skills in that are enabling us to do this, right, 168 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:51,600 Central to the agency which is, which is huge. 169 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,900 Big difference, what up in the benefits that you've you and the 170 00:07:54,907 --> 00:07:58,200 team have brought to the business and was it tough 171 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,400 convincing those in the organization to believe that you 172 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,300 could need to do those things? Project management was actually 173 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:10,800 worth it, the benefits, I think I think that shared language and 174 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,200 comes coming through from a pmo so that everybody is talking 175 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,500 about projects in the same way and also you know, every p.m. 176 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:22,100 Lysa Works slightly differently and we all bring our own 177 00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:25,100 personalities to a projects and our own ways of working. 178 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:27,900 But there are some things that should be standardized in 179 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:29,100 businesses. I think. 180 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:32,000 So we brought some of that standardization so that if you 181 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,700 were, I don't know the mark. Head of marketing at Nationwide 182 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:38,900 and you were working with one of my team on a project, but then 183 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:41,500 the next time around is a different member of my team. 184 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:44,100 You weren't getting a completely different experience, you know, 185 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:46,300 there were similarities, we weren't kind of just doing 186 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:49,100 things in a completely different way was enjoined out so things 187 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:52,400 like that which sounds so simple when you talk about it. 188 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,300 But was a real kind of game changer of kind of adding that 189 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:58,800 discipline into in two ways of working, I think the benefits to 190 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,200 the agency in terms of getting stuff done and that's wonderful. 191 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,300 Yeah. I remember when we started with 192 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:10,400 the pmo journey, I kind of I was really, I was really Keen to 193 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,400 talk to all the kind of senior stakeholders. 194 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,600 So X Co are agency leadership board and I had all these kind 195 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,900 of one's the ones on sister. It must have been drunk over 196 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,200 that all these ones ones on teams talking about it and I was 197 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,900 interviewing them. And somebody says to me this 198 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:24,900 lovely quote, which my colleagues awake makeup or you 199 00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,500 won't take me for but said if we are going to look and this must 200 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,500 be true of so many organizations were those. 201 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:32,100 They said if we were to look at all the initiatives that we've 202 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:33,800 ever done, we'd launched an initiative. 203 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,200 Of to do it. And it's still my favorite quote 204 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,600 now because we're one of those businesses, I think so many 205 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,900 business like this, where you launch things and then they're 206 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:46,800 led by light senior leaders and then you don't deliver the 207 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,200 change. Maybe you're expecting. 208 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,500 Or they kind of fizzle out. They don't have that momentum 209 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,400 and then the net the year after another thing kind of gets 210 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,300 launched and eventually people go, hold on, what is that thing 211 00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:58,300 before this is this the same? Yeah yeah. 212 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:01,100 Well as project management whether it's pmo or just those 213 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:03,200 skills means that we got stuff done. 214 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,900 We hope it was for Accounts and suddenly things were changing 215 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:07,500 things. You know you're adding the 216 00:10:07,508 --> 00:10:09,400 benefits are that you're actually doing what you say, 217 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,500 you're going to be doing rather than kind of coming up with a 218 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:14,000 new plan every year and then not executing it. 219 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,900 So yeah, that would be the biggest thing and what are the 220 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:20,000 challenges you faced was that hard to sail, to explain to 221 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,500 others what proper project management is and what the pmo 222 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:27,600 would do project management account have a bad rap, right? 223 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,500 Because I think depending on your experience of the project 224 00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:33,500 manager, and that, you know, that Journey you've been through 225 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:37,300 Open on great projects and we've all been on lousy projects that 226 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:39,100 don't them move forward and go anywhere. 227 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,600 And I think sometimes project management can have a PR the pr 228 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,900 the perception rather is that its bureaucratic we're adding 229 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:50,900 hurdles in the way people can't, it's a barrier to getting things 230 00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:54,500 done and I think we definitely had a bit of that where there 231 00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:57,200 wasn't that belief in the fact that people thought project 232 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,500 management was Project managers and I think they're kind of real 233 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:03,500 changing point, was that kind of understanding that we're 234 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:05,300 talking? About how we deliver work you 235 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:08,200 know and I think you know, even even sometimes not calling it 236 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,500 project management, calling it delivery or strategic 237 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,400 implementation or something different because I think people 238 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,500 immediately, the perception was that project management 239 00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:23,000 sometimes is admin or it's, you know, or disability wrong. 240 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,300 Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, exactly. It's like the red tape is, as 241 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:29,100 you know, is its, we won't get to the answer, won't get into 242 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:31,800 that thing because the project managers will ask us to do this 243 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,200 and it's that, well, yeah, sometimes approaching It is our 244 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,300 sincere thing because it will, but most the time I'll add value 245 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,000 and it will get you to where you need to do and or in my, you 246 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,700 know, it might mean the project isn't worth doing, you know, all 247 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:44,200 those kind of important things that we know. 248 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,600 But yes, there's definitely a bit of perception thing. 249 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,200 I think there was also, I mean, one of the biggest game changers 250 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,700 for me was, so this was before we started on the pmo. 251 00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:55,800 Really? It was we created a project 252 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,600 management apprenticeship like a we called it project Leadership 253 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,400 Academy and rather than it being entry level into The agency was 254 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,200 a bit of that, but it was also for people right across the 255 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,100 agency to sign up and join and learn project management skills. 256 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:14,400 Okay? What like in their own time, all 257 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,200 they were given to people on the job. 258 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,600 So there was a bit of that time that they got, they got in 259 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,000 there, got study leaves, I'm and all that kind of stuff, but it 260 00:12:22,008 --> 00:12:23,800 was the project management level 4. 261 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,100 So the APM they got to do their project management 262 00:12:26,108 --> 00:12:29,200 qualification. We had 20 people initially on 263 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,900 the first cohort including myself so that was a shock to 264 00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:33,700 the system going back to you know, reading books. 265 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:37,700 Study guides and revision and writing essays and all that, but 266 00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:40,200 it was an amazing experience because it was it wasn't just my 267 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:41,900 team. Although some lighting did it, 268 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,500 it was right across the agency and every single, specialism, 269 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:48,600 every single discipline, how do you work alongside the other 270 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,100 people in the organization. So when you've got projects to 271 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:56,100 work on are you involved very early on in those projects right 272 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:58,300 from the start or do people come to you? 273 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,000 How I want to know the relationship? 274 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,900 You have with the people who come to you with the project? 275 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:06,300 So I guess not necessarily the Internal projects maybe that is 276 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:09,600 true but for client kind of lead projects as well. 277 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,400 How do you work? So the people side of things, I 278 00:13:12,408 --> 00:13:15,300 guess I'm interested in. Yes, there's a mixture of that. 279 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,800 I think some of our teams will work very, they'll check in with 280 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,500 us on there on the relevant plans. 281 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,600 So, as an example, we've just built a really cool AI 282 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,500 conversational recruitment tool for the Royal Navy. 283 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,300 So when this was a three-year project from the first kind of 284 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:34,200 conversations, where by Royal Navy wanted to I knew they 285 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,900 needed to change their recruitment model. 286 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:37,900 So this was a conversation going back. 287 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:40,700 Yeah going back three years. And I think when you think about 288 00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:43,900 project management, usually what happens is, the business case is 289 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:45,900 dealt with. You know, you the requirements 290 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:47,700 Gathering. You get to the kind of thing 291 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:51,200 where the project manager management without hand, over 292 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,400 the project manager will then deliver the projects whether 293 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,000 it's the build, or the first iteration of the tall or 294 00:13:57,008 --> 00:13:58,700 whatever. But actually project management 295 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:01,600 was right there from the start. So we were involved in the what 296 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,100 we call Discovery which is like you know, the Fact-finding piece 297 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,500 of work of, you know what's possible, you know, how should 298 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:10,600 this work? What do we want to propose to 299 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,800 the client? Which is really unusual thing? 300 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,800 Because usually it just gets handed over when it's going. 301 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,900 It's kind of ready to go or sore sold for want of a better 302 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:20,100 expression and we, yeah, we were there checking in all the time 303 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,600 but then some there are some other projects which get agreed 304 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,600 and then they get handed over to the p.m. team. 305 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,000 So the pmo to deliver do you have a particular project 306 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,100 management approach and methodology that you like to 307 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:34,200 use? I talked about toolkit and I 308 00:14:34,208 --> 00:14:37,500 think some, some projects in the partnership space, particularly 309 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:40,400 lend themselves to a kind of waterfall approach. 310 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:43,600 We talk about agile quite a bit, but I think there's different 311 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,200 meanings on that. Yeah, we take the best bits and 312 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,900 we use the bits that are in our toolkit for the right projects, 313 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,000 and the right, kind of the right way. 314 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,500 I think sometimes if we got really technical on some of the 315 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:56,000 project management stuff and did things by the body of knowledge 316 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,300 book, perhaps, we'd probably put our clients off, you know, I 317 00:14:58,308 --> 00:15:00,800 think, I think part of it for me is about how, you know, we are 318 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,700 mad teams with the toolkit. And then you pick the right 319 00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:06,100 things in the right way, like I say some things are standardized 320 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:09,000 but it's about picking the right tool for the right job, for the 321 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,200 right project, for the right stakeholders, all those things 322 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,800 as well. What advice would you give to 323 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,300 others who are perhaps setting up a pmo or its early days? 324 00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:21,700 What advice would tips would you give to them about getting the 325 00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,800 team to work together? So when I first proposed the 326 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,100 whole pmo thing, I wrote, you know, I'd like I said, my 327 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,400 background is already 0, right? I'd never I hadn't come from a 328 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,200 training like Official train, if you like more business school or 329 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,000 any of that stuff. So when I was thinking about, 330 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:39,900 how could this kind of the only use of the importance of the 331 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:42,500 agency was adding value through the apprenticeship, I wrote the 332 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:45,400 biggest longest business plan you've ever seen in your entire 333 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,300 life. How many pages? 334 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Oh, my God, for you at 17, you know, just total Overkill. 335 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,200 I didn't know what I was doing in terms of writing a business 336 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:53,400 plan. Nobody taught me that, you know, 337 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,500 I'd watch a couple YouTube videos and surprise surprise, 338 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:58,000 you know? This massive document. 339 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,300 No, nobody even opened. I don't think they can get red. 340 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:03,800 And so, I think my advice is Start showing value, just crack 341 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,500 on and that's kind of what I did. 342 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:09,100 It wasn't my role title actually the point of which starting pmo 343 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,200 my road to Iceland changed, I haven't got a promotion, I 344 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,400 hadn't, you know, I just started doing and started with the team 345 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,000 working with them to to kind of go. 346 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,600 Let's show some value. Start leaving out of the 347 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,500 projects that were our safe space. 348 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:25,900 If you like that content, but we started allocating 10% of our 349 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:27,500 time. So the business operational 350 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:30,600 projects and just started doing. So I think that's probably the 351 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,000 biggest thing was kind of just crack on. 352 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,300 On and start showing value. I think that when I look back at 353 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:36,800 that, I cringe their business plan. 354 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,600 Now, when I look back at it there were so many things I 355 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,600 wanted to do, you know me because you know, I'd read all 356 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,900 these pmo books and I'd I was got through the apprenticeship 357 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,100 and I was kind of, you know, I knew that it can add value in so 358 00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:49,800 many areas, but I kind of shut them all in this one plan and 359 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,700 it's just me, you know, there's this the resources me and it's 360 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,700 like actually, you know, figure out where you want to start and 361 00:16:55,700 --> 00:17:00,300 start adding value quickly as well, you know, you, it can take 362 00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:02,000 forever, some projects take forever. 363 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,099 You've got, you've got to kind of show value quickly to the 364 00:17:04,108 --> 00:17:06,900 organization. I think also getting on board. 365 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,400 You're doing the interviews understanding where there's 366 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,400 consensus on where project management or a pmo, can add 367 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,800 value the types of projects and then within that down. 368 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,800 So you can kind of prioritize, you've got the voices of the 369 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,800 senior leaders in the organization, but you've 370 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,900 hopefully come to some kind of consensus where they are joined 371 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:27,300 up, in terms of the value that it can offer. 372 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,400 And then for me, the biggest thing as well is like, is that 373 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,600 whole thing around Learning and trial and error and just 374 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,900 constantly looking forward constantly iterating. 375 00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:39,800 I'm one of those people who I can't sit. 376 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,500 Still, you know, I'm constantly looking at the next thing, which 377 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:44,300 I think is probably true of project management. 378 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,200 Generally right, we all kind of went, you know, we ought to get 379 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,500 to the next Milestone. So it says, yeah. 380 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:51,600 So I think that's about kind of. How can you just constantly 381 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,600 improve the processes? The ways of working the 382 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,400 relationships and just, you know, just dial out by 1%. 383 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,600 Interesting to talk about the learnings, and taking learnings 384 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,900 free, from everything you work on a moving on. 385 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:09,900 How do you go about doing that? Yes, we do it. 386 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,200 On every single project will have spent on the length of the 387 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,500 project. So we might see it throughout 388 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:18,200 the project, so all be every quarter, sometimes we'll do it 389 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,600 every status meeting. If you know, how are we doing, 390 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:22,300 is there anything we can improve? 391 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,800 And then we take that feedback and bring it back into that 392 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,900 project. But then we also have a 393 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:32,300 centralized but database I suppose where we can pull all 394 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:34,100 that learning. So the so we can see where there 395 00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:36,300 are similarities, I'll give you an example. 396 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:39,300 So, one of the things that's the Zup sometimes on projects is 397 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,600 that stakeholders? Don't like too many emails I 398 00:18:41,608 --> 00:18:43,700 think we're all probably. We're all probably experienced 399 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:45,800 that silly post covid. I think there's just this just 400 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,800 in we're just overloaded with communication whether it's you 401 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,200 know teams Chatters on your messenger saying or emails are 402 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,200 inbox, never being empty, that kind of stuff. 403 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,000 And we had just couple of bits of feedback was that, I'm just 404 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,300 getting. So I just got too much too much, 405 00:18:58,300 --> 00:18:59,700 email too much emails coming through. 406 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,100 I can't deal with it. It's not just our stuff, but, 407 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,700 you know, it is just volume of things in their day and simple 408 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:06,800 things. I was like, well, okay, why 409 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,900 don't we? Obvious, when you say that it's 410 00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:12,300 but let's just start the day with a call and let's do that 411 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:16,200 instead, which is okay, I guess a bit kind of agile, methodology 412 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,400 of the stand-up. We didn't call it that we didn't 413 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,500 use the exact same framework. This leads me to ask you about 414 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:26,200 the culture that you have tried to create where you are. 415 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,400 So in order to get people to speak quite honestly about the 416 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,400 mistakes, they've made, to be honest, all the difficulties, 417 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,000 they face honestly, so that something can be done and they 418 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,200 can get the support they need. How do you achieve it? 419 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:43,500 So when I was kind of trying to learn more about project 420 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,500 management and the leadership side of things, I came across 421 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,800 Holland Ellis and he is a couple of books, I read. 422 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,900 But one of them talks about the importance of project 423 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,800 leadership, to the point that I think I've sold colonists. 424 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,400 I think I probably stole everything that book and just 425 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,100 presented to my team and they talked about their technical 426 00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,300 skills, right? And they thought about, he talks 427 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:06,200 about the project management skills than, like those your 428 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,600 fundamentals. Absolutely. 429 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,900 You need to understand how you deliver into Improv. 430 00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:13,800 As you need to understand how to initiate has a plan and to 431 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,000 execute all those things that you learn on the APM learning 432 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,400 portal, you learn throughout your listen to your podcast, 433 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,400 those kind of technical skills. But then the other two things 434 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,000 are around leadership and culture and without those it 435 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,900 made this really good quote which again I've stolen which 436 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:31,600 was the fact that when you when you've been on a great project 437 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,500 nobody remembers the Gantt chart. 438 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,200 Yeah, you remember the person and his people who run projects 439 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,600 in even in a world that we're turning into with AI and chat to 440 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,100 be too. And all that stuff, right? 441 00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:44,400 We still will always need great project managers and people on 442 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:45,900 projects I wholeheartedly believe that. 443 00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:48,500 So we talked about how you have to be create environments that 444 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,700 people want to do great work, can you give us some specifics 445 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:54,000 and tips for people who might be listening right now to keep? 446 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,300 Yes, I want that kind of culture where people falling over 447 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:00,700 themselves to work with us. Have you come across anything 448 00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:03,800 that really works. I think one of the biggest 449 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,000 frustrations people have when they're on projects in my 450 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,700 experience is that you don't feel your voices heard. 451 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,600 You know, we're, we have a lot of projects where you will have 452 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,100 some really strong characters. You know, media agencies are 453 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:18,500 full of really strong characters who are in Christ. 454 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:22,300 There's so clever, throw me that ridiculous brain boxes in our 455 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:27,200 organization who are also they will, they are so experienced. 456 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,900 They sometimes it can take over a meeting. 457 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,700 They can take over projects and you'll have You people joined, 458 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:36,500 who would then sit back and not kind of lean into the project 459 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:37,800 because you can't get a word in edgeways. 460 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,200 So I think one of the biggest things we've talked about on is 461 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,000 making sure as a p.m. that you're you're engaging with 462 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600 everybody, you're making sure that everybody feels included in 463 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,400 a project so that they feel they're adding value because 464 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,200 obviously, that's what, you know, nobody comes into work to 465 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,900 do a terrible job each day. Yeah, you want to do with? 466 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:55,700 Yeah you want to done some great work and I think it's the PM's 467 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:58,800 job to facilitate that make sure that the people within their 468 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,300 projects in you know you're all familiar responsible for them. 469 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:03,700 It's not necessarily that you know, You're not line managing 470 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,500 them, but for the purposes that our project is, they're plugged 471 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:07,900 into you and you're responsible for them. 472 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,400 So it's the parents job to make sure that they're supporting 473 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,800 them. That they're guiding them 474 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,100 through the projects that they're answering questions that 475 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:16,500 they're, you know, they're open, they're honest, they're 476 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:18,700 recognizing where things have fallen off track and the 477 00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:21,400 supporting to get it back on track again. 478 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,800 Let you say maybe. Yeah, maybe that sounds obvious, 479 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,000 but until you kind of really look at applying that, I think 480 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,600 sometimes in my experience, working with people working with 481 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,000 project management, you would it would just be like, well, that's 482 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,900 the Milestone, you've left the deadline, you got Set regardless 483 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:36,000 of that, there's no empathy and I think bringing that in the 484 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,800 empathy to project management and the project through Runners. 485 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,200 As look at some massive game changing, have there been any 486 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,300 surprises along the kind of pmo Journey? 487 00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:51,100 And will you indulge us with them or did you plan everything 488 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:55,000 down to the nth degree in your 70 page business plan? 489 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600 And I did it was, I didn't follow, I think the it was about 490 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,900 the surprise. I think some of it was about Out 491 00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:05,300 like how nice and rewarding the little winds are. 492 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,600 So even I mean this sounds Daft but even like at the beginning 493 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,400 of the year we present we have a company meeting and there was a 494 00:23:14,408 --> 00:23:17,300 presentation of some of the kind of structural changes or 495 00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:21,000 whatever and you know standard business stuff but project 496 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,200 management was on the slide of all these departments. 497 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,800 All this specialisms was on there right next to all the 498 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,100 other Specialists and so I could talk about like all these yeah 499 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,400 brilliantly brainy people in all these really important things 500 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,300 and that Never happened. Ever in a project management, 501 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:37,300 was not talked about in that way, and I think that says it 502 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:39,300 was a little wind surprise me to the point. 503 00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:43,000 I got a bit emotional, see on screen that kind of recognition 504 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,000 of the work he doing and your team does, how do you think 505 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,800 that's part of a broader trend of organizations recognizing 506 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,500 project management as a function? 507 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,300 Something valuable in increasingly needs to be done 508 00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:59,900 properly. Yeah, 100% not just I mean the 509 00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:02,200 technical skills. Absolutely as well. 510 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,200 Also, So there's softer skills that we talked about like the 511 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,900 leadership the empathy on project on projects particular. 512 00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:10,000 I think we've always known like in leadership space, bit more, 513 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:12,600 like senior leaders need to be more empathetic, whatever. 514 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,300 It's like, but actually now I think people are seeing that 515 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,200 that's true on every piece of work and projects and whatever. 516 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,000 I remember reading there is in your brilliant project magazine. 517 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,300 There was this wonderful article with Channel 4 and that really 518 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:26,000 inspired me because it was kind of like, you know, here's a 519 00:24:26,008 --> 00:24:28,500 creative partner that we work with day in day out. 520 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,000 Brilliant at what they do. So creative but They were 521 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,800 talking about how they had put pmo into the sensor, their 522 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,500 operation, and they were changing their language to not 523 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,000 talk about projects to about delivery, those kind of things. 524 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,900 And suddenly what you've got is a is project management being 525 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:47,500 part of the Strategic vision of that company, you know? 526 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:49,700 So yeah. Absolutely I think more and more 527 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,200 is becoming important. I think you see kind of articles 528 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,800 about, you know, what could organizations have you know, 529 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,700 Chief projects officers in the future. 530 00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,800 And that kind of thing that's never been discussed in mice, 531 00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:03,700 from what I've seen in my time doing this What do you get from 532 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:05,300 project management? So you've come from a very 533 00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:10,000 creative background and people wouldn't necessarily think of 534 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,400 project management as being creative. 535 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,900 That that's the kind of I think that's probably a false concept. 536 00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:22,300 But what do you personally enjoy about project management is that 537 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:24,100 collaboration thing? Which sounds cheesy. 538 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,400 I know but you know, you if you've got the right mix of 539 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,100 people on the project so it's like a really diverse mix of 540 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:33,100 talent your hearing you voices better, Oh, Buzz. 541 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:36,700 Kind of, you know, and and and then the other thing is I seeing 542 00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,000 your stuff out in the world. Yep. 543 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,800 That's hugely rewarding because you actually see the point of 544 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,100 projects is you see the things going out into the world, right? 545 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:47,100 This isn't PA. You where's just always ticking 546 00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:48,200 along and never gets done, though. 547 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,000 It's finished, you know, the great thing about it, the really 548 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,600 rewarding thing for me is that that work thing goes out into 549 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,000 the world. Have you got any advice for 550 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,400 those at the other end of the scale. 551 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,400 So any advice on how to deal with senior? 552 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:07,300 Sex or c-suite around project management and, and their 553 00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:11,800 understanding of it. I think it's just showing don't 554 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,800 doing this, the work and showing the value and I think 555 00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:19,800 understanding that you need to deliver things quickly and you 556 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,600 don't always have time to show value. 557 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,500 So it's looking at where the quick wins that you can show 558 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:26,900 value to see sweet in that sense. 559 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,000 Don't get too bogged down in the tools and the tag their 560 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,400 important absolutely important and crucial, you know, that, you 561 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,300 know, those things inside our absolute. 562 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,100 That's kind of, you know, there's that should be a given 563 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,000 but look at how you can Of customized and be flexible and 564 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,800 tailor those to fit with your business because the every 565 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,500 single business is different. Everybody you need, you need to 566 00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:51,000 kind of arm yourself with everything in the toolkit to be 567 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,300 able to speak the language of see sweep, you know, something. 568 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:56,300 Some people love like, reading a plowing through all the detail. 569 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:59,600 They love all the, you know, the graphs and the status and they 570 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,900 big long reports and all that kind of stuff. 571 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:04,500 But in other people is all about storytelling. 572 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:06,400 It's just about, you know, how do you get? 573 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,100 You know, they're not going to read through your day, so 574 00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:09,500 they're not going to look through all your graphs and 575 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,200 Whether it's just tailoring that approach to the stakeholders and 576 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,900 I think that's kind of particularly true of the people 577 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:16,800 at that. You never got his time to read 578 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,300 some Supply through my 70 page business plan. 579 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,700 It was anything else you want to talk through cold a lot and lots 580 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:26,900 of valuable advice and you know, it's exciting times I think. 581 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:28,900 Yeah. I think it is exciting. 582 00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:31,100 I think it's it's a journey, right? 583 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,900 So it's like is that exciting thing is like it's never done 584 00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:36,400 and I think that's an age difference of projects right? 585 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,500 Usually going to project it finishes your off but the pmo is 586 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:43,700 We how do we, how do we evolve? How do we improve, how do we 587 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,700 change our ways of working? And I think whatever's to come, 588 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:49,000 in terms of, you know, artificial intelligence. 589 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,000 And we'd be having a very different conversation in five 590 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,400 years time if we were doing this because there's so much stuff 591 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,500 coming at us day in day out, that we need to embrace and that 592 00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:00,700 could be terrifying for your arm guy. 593 00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,400 What my 47? Yeah, that could be really 594 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,100 scary. So God my goodness me, there's 595 00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:07,600 all this stuff that I've got to learn and there's no, our 596 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,400 computers are going to do some of these bits and bobs. 597 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,100 Well, that's really exciting. And so I think, you know, for a 598 00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:15,000 pmo perspective is that, you know, and certainly for us at 599 00:28:15,008 --> 00:28:17,000 wave makers, kind of like, this is only the beginning really. 600 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,100 It's like where this can go, is just really exciting, okay? 601 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:23,000 Thanks Dan. Brilliant to talk to you. 602 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,900 Thank you for sharing your time with us, and your wisdom and 603 00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:29,000 wishing you. The best of luck with all the 604 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,400 projects you you work on. Thank you for having me. 605 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:39,800 Thanks again to Dan for joining us and to you for listening to 606 00:28:39,808 --> 00:28:42,500 the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for 607 00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:45,100 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 608 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:47,800 podcast. We'd welcome you to get in touch 609 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,600 with your comments feedback and suggestions by e-mailing us at a 610 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,600 p.m. podcast at sink publishing .co.uk this podcast has been 611 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,800 brought to you by APM to chartered body. 612 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,500 For the project profession, for more information on a p.m. visit 613 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,400 AP m dot org.uk.