1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,760 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,160 the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, and I'm 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,520 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,880 In this podcast, I'm speaking to Marie Coombs and Sophie Payton 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,320 about that perennial topic of interest, How to have difficult 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,160 conversations. I'm sure all of you face this 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,960 challenge in your project work, so we've got some advice from 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,120 two people who know all about it to help you feel less daunted 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,120 and get better at doing it. Marie is the Director of We 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,160 Restore Calm and a seasoned expert in HR, conflict 11 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,040 resolution, mediation, and employee engagement, through 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:45,680 which he's won a number of awards. 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,320 Sophie is an experienced facilitator and partner at Make 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,720 Happy, a consultancy that helps teams unlock their full 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,920 potential, solve complex problems and find new ideas. 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,520 I got them together to share their inside tips on how to make 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,520 difficult conversations less difficult. 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,360 In fact, I was told that we shouldn't even describe these 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,160 sorts of conversations as difficult, but rather reframe 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,520 them as essential. Listen on to some of their other 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:18,360 brilliant insights. Marie and Sophie, it's lovely to 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,240 have you here. Thanks for sparing the time to 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,920 talk to us about having a difficult conversation. 24 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,280 Thank you for asking. Us very nice to be here. 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,160 What makes a conversation a difficult one to have? 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,360 Why does it become difficult if it started out OK? 27 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,360 Sophie, maybe you'd like to go first. 28 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,800 My definition of what makes a difficult conversation is anyone 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,560 that you're feeling worried about that you're feeling a bit 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,720 trepidatious about maybe lying in bed thinking, oh gosh, I 31 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,600 really don't want to want to have to talk to this person 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,640 about that. And it can be maybe it's 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,000 something really big. You know, we're not going to be 34 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,320 able to deliver this because of one person's inability to 35 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,080 produce what they need to produce. 36 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,520 But sometimes it can be smaller stuff. 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,520 You know, it might be that you want to move where your desk is 38 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,680 in the office or something because of, like, a personal 39 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,440 reason to you. But those things can, over time, 40 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,200 become big in your mind as well. And so, yeah, I guess that's 41 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,120 what I'd say is anything that you're worrying about, that's 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,320 what becomes a difficult conversation. 43 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,040 OK. And I guess, Marie, you'd agree 44 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,720 with that. I do, yeah, to A to a certain 45 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,720 extent, I have an issue with the word difficult purely because 46 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,000 that automatically puts that reframe that it's a conversation 47 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,960 to be avoided. It's a conversation to be 48 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,680 worried about. And I'm actually on a mission to 49 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,400 try and change the word difficult to essential because 50 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,480 they're conversations we need to have. 51 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,920 And actually what makes them difficult is the fact that we 52 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,160 build them up in our minds as being difficult. 53 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,440 We build them up in our minds as something to be avoided or 54 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,760 that's something that we're not looking forward to. 55 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,720 And that's not saying that doing the reframe, we're automatically 56 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,640 going to look forward to them, but it just shifts something in 57 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:02,720 our mindset and it gets us looking at that conversation 58 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,920 from a slightly different perspective and a slightly 59 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,760 different point of view. Because when we frame something 60 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,720 as difficult, that activates the fight or flight mechanism in our 61 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,040 brains. So it activates the emotional 62 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,040 centre that automatically tells our brain that the conversation 63 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,920 is a threat. So we then think of it as a 64 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:21,920 threat. Whereas if we think of it as a 65 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:25,080 conversation that you know needs to happen, but actually could be 66 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,360 incredibly productive and constructive and actually be a 67 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,080 driving force, if that actually shifts our mindset and makes us 68 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,600 less afraid of it, which means generally it's going to be a 69 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,120 better conversation than the one we probably thought of as being 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,000 difficult. I know when we've spoken 71 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,520 previously that you you made the very obvious point that you have 72 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,080 to expect to have conversations like these with other people. 73 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,720 It's just part of life. Everybody thinks that conflict 74 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,840 is something bad, and actually conflict just is. 75 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,400 It's like death and taxes. It's how we deal with it that 76 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,120 decides whether it's destructive or constructive. 77 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,280 It's the destructive nature of conflict we can avoid, not 78 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,520 conflict itself. And that reframe just starting 79 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,920 off thinking about that conversation as being a 80 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,360 conversation that's essential, that makes it more likely it's 81 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,160 going to be a constructive conversation. 82 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,440 And constructive conflict is where innovation lives. 83 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,360 It's where creativity lives. It's where ideas live. 84 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:25,440 If you go into the mindset of it being destructive, you don't get 85 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,280 any of that creativity because your mind is hardwired for 86 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,720 threat. Sophie, do you have any tips 87 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,240 about how to prepare to have an essential conversation? 88 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,520 I'm rebranding it essential not, not difficult that can help you 89 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,640 go in I guess with greater confidence. 90 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,720 Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with what Marie says there about 91 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,240 reframing it. And I think as well as reframing 92 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,800 the whole idea of the conversation as being essential 93 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,320 rather than difficult. Sometimes you can get more 94 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,480 specific. And you know, if you've got 95 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,000 these thoughts running through your minds like this is going to 96 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,800 be awful to just flip that and say, you know, this is going to 97 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,000 be really valuable. This is going to help me achieve 98 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,920 whatever it is I need to achieve. 99 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:11,480 And it sounds really obvious and so simple, but actually just by 100 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,400 doing that, you do really start to have a powerful effect. 101 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,520 And as Marie says, so much of why we dread these conversations 102 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,960 is because of our fight or flight response. 103 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:23,480 And actually reframing your thoughts can be the first step 104 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,080 in starting to regulate that emotional primal response, that 105 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,320 threat detection and system that's being triggered by the 106 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,240 thought of having a conflict with someone. 107 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,440 It can be useful to plan a little bit so to have in your 108 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,840 mind what your goal for the conversation is like, what do 109 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,720 you actually want to achieve? And then maybe jot down a few 110 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,720 points of kind of essential points you need to get across. 111 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,960 But I think, again, tying into what Maria was saying about when 112 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,640 you let it start to go over and over and over in your mind is 113 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,680 not to expend too much mental energy in the preparation, sort 114 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,360 of thinking how it's going to go, because you never really 115 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,360 know how the other person is going to react. 116 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,680 And you can use up a lot of emotional energy kind of 117 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,880 thinking about it in advance. Are there any tips about going 118 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:14,240 into a conversation and when you're preparing to think about 119 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,880 what are the outcomes you'd be happy to have and should you be 120 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,000 a bit flexible about that? So should you have almost like 121 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,480 best case scenario and a worst case scenario? 122 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,560 Yeah. Interestingly enough, in the 123 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,520 mediation world we, we have 3 phrases, Batna, Watna, malatna, 124 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,680 which is best alternative, worst alternative, most likely 125 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,680 alternative to what it is you want to get out of that 126 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,000 conversation. So we use a lot of that in the 127 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,480 conflict resolution world and the conflict transformation 128 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,560 world to get people to think about, you know, what's the 129 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,800 worst case scenario? How do I feel about that? 130 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,600 What's the best case scenario? Is that actually achievable? 131 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,840 And what's the most likely scenario that's going to happen 132 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:59,520 in that situation? And if you go in prepared for 133 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,840 those 3 eventualities, actually that conversation just becomes a 134 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:04,880 lot easier because you're not trying to think in the 135 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,840 conversation what those things might be. 136 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,240 So my advice would be any preparation. 137 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,240 They're really the three key things to think about it in 138 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,800 terms of what your outcomes are going to be. 139 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,520 What are those potential outcomes? 140 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,680 And that could be, again, apologies for for chucking in 141 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,840 acronyms. Mediation world's full of 142 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,040 acronyms as I'm sure project management is as well. 143 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,200 Yeah, they love the acronym. It's catchy, though. 144 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,400 That's the sort of things, you know, if you feel nervous and 145 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,280 everything just flies out of your brain. 146 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,840 But if you can cling on to something, that's always 147 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,960 helpful. Sophie, was there anything you 148 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,400 wanted to add? For me, I think the most 149 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,240 important thing going into a conversation, I mean, you're 150 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,400 kind of mentally thinking about how you're going to approach it 151 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,400 is that you also have to be willing to listen and you have 152 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,440 to be willing that actually your outcome might not be the outcome 153 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,040 that's reached and you might actually not be as right as you 154 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,520 think you are. And I think that's a really 155 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,520 important part of preparing is to say this is going to be a two 156 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,720 way conversation. It's not just going to be me 157 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,680 getting my way. And you know, obviously ideally 158 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,800 both people go into the conversation with that mindset 159 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,480 as well. But definitely the bit you can 160 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,280 control is your own approach. I don't know if you've read 161 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,040 Nancy Klein time to think. It's about really creating the 162 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,760 optimal environment to do great for human beings to do great 163 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,040 thinking. One of the things she says, 164 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,640 which what really resonates with me is that because of the way 165 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,200 we're educated and then we're managed in the workplace, often 166 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,400 when another person is speaking, we're not really listening and 167 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,360 processing what they are saying. We're actually just formulating 168 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,600 our own response in our mind. And, and I think we can all 169 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,679 reflect on ourselves and our experiences and when we do that 170 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,200 quite a lot. And so to try and dial down that 171 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:50,040 in a voice that's maybe mentally rebutting what the other person 172 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,880 is saying as they're talking and just actually listen and try and 173 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,920 understand and look for meaning in what they're saying is a 174 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,040 really, really important part of having a great conversation with 175 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,520 someone. So try to be a great listener as 176 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,520 much as worrying about what you're trying to get across. 177 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,480 Thank you. Is it natural to want to avoid 178 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,320 difficult or essential conversations and is that a good 179 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,720 strategy? Yes, 100% normal. 180 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,680 And no, it's not a good strategy. 181 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,680 It's a very, very simple answer. It's really, really interesting. 182 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:26,760 I was running a training course yesterday and every single 183 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,800 person in the room, when I said to them, if you ever had any 184 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,520 training on conflicts, the answer was no. 185 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,640 Because it's one of those topics that we never really get taught 186 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,120 how to do. We just expected to do it. 187 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:40,920 And what generally happens is you pick up how to deal with 188 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,720 essential situations. We pick up how to deal with that 189 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,680 from our parents, from what we learn as children, and then we 190 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,080 take that into adulthood. So from my perspective, I got 191 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,120 bullied a lot as a kid. I was always told by my mum, 192 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,720 walk away from those bullies because they'll stop if you walk 193 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,480 away. So I had the mentality until I 194 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,880 did my training in 2014 as a mediator. 195 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,120 I had the mentality of walking away from a difficult situation 196 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,320 or an essential situation was the right thing to do because if 197 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:11,840 I walk away from it, it goes away. 198 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,600 Spoiler alert, it doesn't. It never goes away because if 199 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,760 nothing else, it builds up as an internal conflict, even if the 200 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,960 other person isn't aware of what's going on. 201 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,280 And we sometimes forget that conflict isn't just between two 202 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,200 people. It's also internal as well. 203 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,080 It's that self talk. It's that building up a 204 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,960 situation to be worse than it is and avoiding it. 205 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,320 What we tend to do is we tend to build it up so that when we see 206 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,040 that person again, we're already in a situation where I'm 207 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,360 dreading seeing this person because of that build up in our 208 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,880 minds. So but it's not about going in 209 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,320 or guns blazing as well and saying, you know what, we just 210 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:49,840 need to crack on with this and fix it. 211 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,160 And it is about that listening and picking up on on what Sophie 212 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,400 said. Stephen Covey also came out with 213 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,400 a very, very similar line. We spend our lives listening to 214 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,280 respond rather than listening to hear. 215 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,640 And that is usually what happens when we do go in or guns 216 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,160 blazing. We go in with our own 217 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,040 preconceived mindsets of this is how the conversation's going to 218 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,760 go. And it becomes more complicated 219 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,440 when we don't get the response we've expected to get. 220 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,200 So we're spending our time thinking of what a new response 221 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,920 is going to be rather than listening to hear essentially. 222 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,600 So yeah, walking away. There's lots of different ways 223 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,880 people deal with conflict. Walking away from it, not 224 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,360 dealing with it at all, going in all guns blazing, phoning 225 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,600 people, pleasing, you know, just capitulating because it's easier 226 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,800 than having the conversation. When actually the keyword is 227 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,120 collaboration. It's about getting in there and 228 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,440 having a two way conversation. That is the way to deal with 229 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,920 essential situations. OK. 230 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,960 That is some really excellent and thoughtful advice. 231 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,720 I think I would just like to go in and ask you there for how do 232 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,080 you try to have the best conversations you can have when 233 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,520 you're talking about something difficult or something 234 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,560 essential. So kind of what are the do's and 235 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:05,840 then we could maybe move on to the don'ts. 236 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,440 We've already covered quite a lot in terms of thinking about 237 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,760 the conversation and preparing, but Sophie, what advice do you 238 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,720 give to your kind of clients about having conversations like 239 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,480 this? The number one thing that I 240 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,720 think makes the biggest difference is actually just 241 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,560 breathing, which might sound strange, but again, you know, 242 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:29,120 going back to what Marie described about the our nervous 243 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,880 system being triggered in these conversations, our bodies are 244 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,480 just being pumped full of adrenaline. 245 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,040 And just as Marie said, it produces these responses, 246 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,400 whether it's avoidance, withdrawing, fawning, coming 247 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,800 out, fighting, whatever it might be. 248 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,040 And none of those are going to help you have a good 249 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,160 conversation and help you achieve what you need to 250 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,120 achieve. Something to really help you 251 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,240 regulate that is just breathing. Because it's a two way dialogue 252 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,400 between that kind of nervous response and your brain. 253 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:00,000 And if you can start to just slow your breathing down and 254 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,120 regulate your breathing, then that sends a really strong 255 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,800 signal to your brain that actually you're safe and it 256 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,720 starts to give you a bit of control and it starts to dampen 257 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,560 that adrenal response and that's happening in your body. 258 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,720 We recommend sometimes using a technique called rectangular 259 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,520 breathing, which some people might be familiar with. 260 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:19,640 There are lots of different breathing techniques you can 261 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,880 use, but with rectangular breathing, you can find a 262 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,080 rectangle in the room and try and breathe in as you run your 263 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,800 eyes up the short side of it and breathe out as you run your eyes 264 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,600 over the long side of it so that you're just deepening that out 265 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,720 breath and you're just slowing your breath down. 266 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,920 And just even doing that for half a minute, a minute, you'll 267 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,200 start to notice in your body. Maybe your heartbeat starts to 268 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,320 slow down. Maybe if your hands a bit shaky, 269 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,720 that will start to calm down. You know, maybe you're feeling a 270 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,840 bit sweaty, all these things that really, really common. 271 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,280 Maybe you feel a bit nauseous. That will all just start to 272 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,440 settle. And it's such a simple thing to 273 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,400 do. But again, going back to Marie's 274 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,040 point, we're just not taught, we're not equipped with any of 275 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,200 these skills really quite simple steps we can take to create 276 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,680 better conditions for a conversation to happen. 277 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,000 OK. And Sophie, what about when 278 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,760 you're in that conversation? Is there any tips on how to 279 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480 start a conversation like that? Maybe you're the one that's 280 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,760 asked for the meeting or perhaps you're not. 281 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,760 How do you try and get it off on a good foot? 282 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,080 I mean, there are a few different things. 283 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,040 Again, something quite simple, it's just about your body 284 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,760 language. So are you kind of keeping your 285 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,480 body language open? Again, you're showing to that 286 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,840 other person. Just as you want yourself to 287 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,840 feel safe in the conversation, you want the other person to 288 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,760 feel safe too, and to send a signal to them that their flight 289 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,720 or flight system doesn't have to come into action. 290 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,320 And a really immediate way of doing that is just by having 291 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,840 open, relaxed body language, you know, not folding your arms over 292 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,080 your chest, not kind of clutching a folder in front of 293 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,480 you. And also linked to that is just 294 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,840 thinking about where you sit in the room, you know, to maybe try 295 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,320 and sit next to the person rather than across from a table 296 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,160 to create that mental shift that you're not in opposition, you're 297 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,600 in partnership. And the problem is, you know, 298 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,400 external to both of you and you're working together to solve 299 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,160 it, rather than the problem being the other person. 300 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,920 That's a very good point, Marie. What would your kind of tips be 301 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:27,360 for trying to get a conversation like this started Well and and 302 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,920 and to continue? Well, so Sophie's done some 303 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,160 really good stuff there in terms of the body, in terms of 304 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,560 mindset. Going into the conversation, 305 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,200 starting the conversation from a place of curiosity. 306 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,680 If you sit there with just a curious mind, it automatically 307 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,080 changes the tone that you're using because you're coming from 308 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,000 a place of I want to understand rather than you've done this 309 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,120 wrong or we've done this wrong. So that curiosity changes your 310 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,560 tone. It changes your language because 311 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,560 you're coming from a place of seeking to understand rather 312 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,360 than seeking to punish or have a go at somebody. 313 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,240 And it also changes how your body reacts as well, because if 314 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,760 you come in from a place of curiosity isn't a threat. 315 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,120 So it naturally helps in terms of regulating that body as well. 316 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,000 One of the things we do in the mediation room is we have no 317 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,640 tables. So tables automatically create 318 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,840 an adversarial atmosphere. And I'll tell you what, watching 319 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,840 people's panic when they walk in the room, when they see there's 320 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,960 no tables, that is absolutely hysterical because people walk 321 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,120 in looking for that safety barrier, which tells me straight 322 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,240 away that they're coming and thinking this is a threat based 323 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,640 conversation, which automatically changes how I 324 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,800 introduce the conversation because I know I need to make 325 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,480 that person feel immediately psychologically safe. 326 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,120 So straight away, how are you doing? 327 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,360 What's you know what, what have you been doing before you came 328 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:46,840 in here today? What did you have for your tea 329 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,360 last night? I immediately go to curious 330 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,280 questions to understand somebody before I get into the meat of 331 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,320 the conversation. And if somebody is struggling to 332 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,400 regulate in the room, I change the environment. 333 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,800 So I have done a number of conversations, not just 334 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,880 mediation, It's just general conversations where I said, 335 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,200 let's go for a walk. Yeah, let's get up and get out 336 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,599 of this room. Let's go and get some fresh, 337 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,880 even if it's just walking down the corridor because what that 338 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,119 does as well, it naturally helps regulate because then the body's 339 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,800 concentrating on movement, not on getting away from the threat. 340 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,760 So it is just several, several little things that you can do, 341 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,800 The biggest ones in terms of mindset, of curiosity, going in 342 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,880 with an open mind and going in from a place of empathy as well. 343 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,240 So there's 2 words that are hugely, hugely important to me 344 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,120 and they are acceptance and agreement. 345 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,760 You can accept what somebody's saying is their truth, but that 346 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,400 doesn't mean you have to agree with it. 347 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,560 And actually what that can do as well is it can change the tone 348 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,600 of a conversation because it's about accepting somebody else's 349 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,880 perspective and understanding of a situation. 350 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,520 But that doesn't mean you have to agree with it because it's 351 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,040 their perception and their understanding of the situation. 352 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,120 All you can do is agree on how you move forward. 353 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,280 And that's where the curiosity really comes into play when 354 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,480 you're starting to agree on how to move forward. 355 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,560 So so your curiosity, open minded empathy are big big 356 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,800 things for me. We're APM, the only chartered 357 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,400 membership organisation for the project profession. 358 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,080 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 359 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,840 support you need to make an impact, delivering better 360 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,480 projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive 361 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,800 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 362 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,360 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 363 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,720 apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, 364 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,160 society benefits. Have you got any advice, either 365 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:44,240 of you on going into meeting with a, a group of people? 366 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,240 So a team of people? So I'm trying to put myself in 367 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,960 the shoes of a project professional who might be tasked 368 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,280 with delivering bad news on a project to a team of 369 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,800 stakeholders that perhaps it's beyond their control what's 370 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,200 happened, but they are the ones that now have to deliver the 371 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,520 news and fix the problem. And I like very much what you've 372 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,880 just been talking about. You're there together to fix the 373 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,160 problem together to find a solution together. 374 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,440 But I mean, I can imagine how daunting that must be. 375 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,200 And also if it's something that you personally are feeling quite 376 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,960 upset about because it's going to give you a lot of headaches, 377 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,320 but you have to be the face of positivity. 378 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,480 And also, you're going to go into that room knowing that 379 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,000 you're going to have a bad reaction. 380 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,200 You know what you're saying is going to give you grief. 381 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,880 So any advice around handling that situation as best you can? 382 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,360 I support managers doing a lot of this kind of thing and what I 383 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,760 I usually recommend is maybe having some form of pre 384 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,760 conversation, even if it's only sort of 5-10 minutes with 385 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,800 everybody just to say how you feel and this is what's 386 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,160 happened. What are your thoughts rather 387 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,800 than having to do that in front of everybody else. 388 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,800 If you've got any key thoughts that you want to bring into the 389 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,600 room. Is that something you could do 390 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,560 by e-mail, or is it sort of trying to catch people? 391 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,880 I would personally do it verbally. 392 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,000 You don't necessarily do it on a team's call or whatever. 393 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,000 It might just be a phone call. It doesn't have to be anything 394 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,480 to owners. It certainly doesn't need to be 395 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,360 anything more than maybe 5 or 10 minutes. 396 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,040 The problem I have with e-mail is people read emails in the 397 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,880 tone that they receive them in, not in the tone in which they 398 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,920 were sent in, which can often mean that that message is 399 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,800 misjudged or misunderstood. So if you're already feeling a 400 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,560 little bit frustrated or stressed about situation and an 401 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,120 e-mail pops into your inbox from the project manager saying this 402 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,920 isn't going well, I want to get your thoughts. 403 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,560 You may read that in the sense of being stressed and frustrated 404 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,960 rather than coming from a place of curiosity yourself. 405 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,240 So I I'd written communication when there is an essential 406 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:44,960 situation that needs to be talked about. 407 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,680 Used sparingly. A lot of people use e-mail as a 408 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,000 way of avoidance. And actually it's about picking 409 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,640 up the phone, jumping on teams, having a conversation. 410 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,520 But when you're actually in the room together, for me, it's 411 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,760 about honesty. When we when we start a a 412 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,360 mediated conversation, I will start the conversation with 413 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,440 we're here because we found ourselves in a challenging 414 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,400 conversation. We've found ourselves in a 415 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,720 challenging situation and this is the place to get that out in 416 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,720 the open. So it's not about whitewashing 417 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,760 that conversation and going right, we're here to fix it. 418 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,520 It's about actually acknowledging, yeah, this is 419 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,040 rubbish, but this is our opportunity to flip that and put 420 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,360 that in a place where actually we can move out of it. 421 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,960 So actually highlighting the fact that it's challenging 422 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,480 bringing that out into the open rather than hiding it is often 423 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,000 the first step in those conversations. 424 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,440 And that can shift things on its head because everybody kind of 425 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,400 goes, all right, OK, yeah, we've acknowledged this, rub it. 426 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:42,880 OK, let's just talk about it then. 427 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,080 OK. And Sophie, what would your 428 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,960 advice be for these situations? Well, I think Marie's imparted 429 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,640 so much wisdom there, and I totally agree with everything 430 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,920 she said. I think the challenge in those 431 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,640 group situations is often what happens is they've got eight 432 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,560 people in the room. There are three people who are 433 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,760 very comfortable talking, and then there are five people who 434 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,760 aren't. So the conversation gets 435 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,600 dominated by the three loudest voices in the room. 436 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:18,400 And if those three voices are not feeling positive about the 437 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,840 situation, then that can really shape a negative outcome for the 438 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,000 whole conversation. So I think it's useful, just 439 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,640 building on what Marie's saying, to think about ways that you can 440 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,560 make sure everyone's able to contribute equally. 441 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,280 Have you got any practical tips? Any advice about doing that? 442 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,080 We use a couple of different techniques, one which is going 443 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,240 to sound really zany, which I'll say second. 444 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,880 The first one is using rounds. So just literally, you know, 445 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,920 whether you're posing a question or you're explaining a situation 446 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,480 and you're asking for people's ideas or response. 447 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,320 And just to go in turn, one by one, people have, let's say a 448 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,160 minute each to share what they want to say. 449 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,720 And then there's no rebuttal. So people don't disagree or 450 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,080 respond. It's just about giving each 451 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,680 person an allotted spot to make their contribution. 452 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,680 And you're not getting into a back and forth. 453 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:10,520 And that's really useful techniques. 454 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,320 It means everyone is given the option to contribute. 455 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,240 You can also give people a bit of thinking time before they 456 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,240 share. So those people who might need 457 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,520 just a bit more processing time before they're willing to 458 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,760 contribute have that, and then they're given an allotted space 459 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,640 to speak. So if you are more reserved, 460 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,800 it's really hard to interrupt when you've got those dominant 461 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,320 voices going. So by giving everyone their own 462 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,040 space, you create the best conditions to get the most out 463 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,960 of everyone. What we sometimes add on to 464 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,800 this, which is the only part, is that we sometimes get people to 465 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,080 build their response with Lego. They have 5 or 6 minutes 466 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,960 building time, they can process, they can think, they create this 467 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,000 kind of visual artefact of their idea, and then one by one people 468 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,440 explain the story behind their model. 469 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,680 There are lots of reasons why it works really well. 470 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,960 Partly it's the thinking time, partly it's the doing something 471 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,040 with your hands which activates different bits of your brain and 472 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,600 makes you a bit more creative and opens new ideas. 473 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,520 But also it again externalises the problem. 474 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,720 So you're talking about a model, you're not talking about the 475 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,960 fact that you know Sandra never gets her reported on time or 476 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,440 whatever it might be. So you try and avoid that kind 477 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:30,680 of flame game. How should you handle negativity 478 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,560 from people in a meeting or maybe even aggression? 479 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,800 So I think there are a few environmental things that you 480 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,120 can try and do from the outset to make people feel calmer. 481 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,080 You know, we have a tendency to have meeting rooms that are in 482 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,880 the middle of a building. They've got no natural lights. 483 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,520 You're under some kind of strong strip lighting. 484 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,200 You're sat at a table just like Mary was talking about earlier. 485 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,080 And often you're really crammed into a tiny room. 486 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,160 None of those things are going to help people feel calm and in 487 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,880 a good place. If you can have a more spacious 488 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,000 room, if you can have some natural light, if you can think, 489 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,480 you know, being able as Marie has to have no tables might not 490 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,920 always be possible. But as much as you can, if you 491 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,040 can get people sitting around in a circle in chairs with no 492 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,600 tables, that's going to be such a better environment for a good 493 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,600 conversation. Also, I think you can. 494 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,880 I think it is useful to sometimes give people a space at 495 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,720 the beginning to vent so they can put out all the things that 496 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,320 they're feeling annoyed about, that they're feeling frustrated 497 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,320 about. And you get that out on the 498 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,200 table at the beginning. You give them that space to just 499 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,400 get everything out that they need to and then you can turn 500 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,800 the conversation on to, OK, we've talked about that. 501 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,680 So now what are we going to do? Because if you don't give people 502 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,760 that space, they keep coming back round to that stuff 503 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,880 throughout the conversation. So they've got to get it out. 504 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,800 Do you ask people then at the beginning of the meeting, like, 505 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,480 so how do you feel about this? And then everyone that's out, 506 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,480 their frustration, anger, whatever. 507 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,440 Yeah, there's. Kind of a, there's kind of 508 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,880 another step to come after that as well, because it's great to 509 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,240 allow people to vent In the mediation world, we call that 510 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,880 uninterrupted speaking time. So we have a much more unwieldy 511 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,360 word for it, but I quite like rounds. 512 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:11,800 I might have to go back. I might have to use that 513 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,160 instead. But we have the uninterrupted 514 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,480 speaking time, which means that not only it's, it's that 515 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,680 listening to hear rather than listening to respond in action 516 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,320 because you're having, having to listen knowing you can't 517 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,040 respond. So it, it, it changes the, the, 518 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,520 the way that people listen in the room. 519 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,880 But the other side of that is whoever's leading that meeting 520 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,280 acknowledge that emotion. So it's not just about about 521 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,320 allowing that emotion out and somebody saying, you know what, 522 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,880 I'm really frustrating and there being no response to that. 523 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,240 It is about the person leading that session to go. 524 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,680 You know what, I hear that frustration and I'm sure it's 525 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,600 shared in the room. But thank you for giving us your 526 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,080 perspective. And it's about voicing that 527 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,200 we've seen it because people will hold on to emotion. 528 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,520 And this is one of the key parts of empathy that people don't 529 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,560 realise and people hold on to emotion because they're waiting 530 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,280 for somebody to either bodily or verbally say I've seen it, I'd 531 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,520 love to know more about that. So one of the key things do to 532 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,520 help people step away from that emotion, which eventually will 533 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,400 potentially lead to aggression or the opposite, which is 534 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,160 withdrawal, is to actually say I've seen it, I'd like to know 535 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,800 more. It's that curiosity piece again, 536 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,320 you know, I'd like to know more. And another way you can set that 537 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,560 up as well is make it very, very clear in an agenda, even if it's 538 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,520 a very, very loose agenda that we're going to set this time 539 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,320 aside for talking about the past. 540 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,440 So this is the stuff that's gone wrong. 541 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,360 This is how we feel about it. This is what we wish hadn't have 542 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,680 happened, right? That's the line. 543 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,920 Now we're going to talk about how we make sure this doesn't 544 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,840 happen again. So splitting your, your 545 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,600 conversation in the past and future. 546 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,480 So it's very, very defined so that people know that, you know, 547 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,640 we've talked about the past, we've emptied that emotion out, 548 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,240 right? How do we now move that forward 549 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,160 and how do we agree on what the next steps are going to be? 550 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,960 So for me it's about splitting it up as well. 551 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,880 When you say dealing with what's happened in the past, that's 552 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:11,120 when blaming can arise. So how do you stamp out that 553 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:14,040 kind of blame game that people do, especially if they feel very 554 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,440 under pressure projects? There's a lot of money at stake 555 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,560 and time at stake and serious repercussions. 556 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,960 So although many project professionals want to have an 557 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,320 open, transparent culture within the team, but often it's not 558 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,560 them that this has set the culture of working with people 559 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,560 from from different organisations that have their 560 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,760 own way of doing things. How can you deal with that issue 561 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,720 of blame as it arises, and how, As a corollary to that, how can 562 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,960 you set up a meeting where that blame is just not allowed to 563 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,200 happen? I think one thing that can be 564 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,480 really useful is to set ground rules for any meeting or 565 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,640 conversation you're having. So right at the beginning, often 566 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,640 as the facilitator, you might have your own set of ground 567 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,360 rules. So that's, you know, this is not 568 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,080 going to be a discussion about personalities. 569 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,040 This is not going to be about individual accountability. 570 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,560 It's about us taking accountability as a team. 571 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,800 We always say, you know, you have to listen generously, 572 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,840 although whatever your ground rules might might be. 573 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,560 And then perhaps offer the group to contribute a couple of their 574 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,720 own ground rules. And then normally we have them 575 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,840 written up so they're on a flip chart or on a screen in the room 576 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,640 and you get the group to agree. But we are going to abide by 577 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,800 these ground rules to ensure the success of this meeting or 578 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,640 conversation. And then at the point, you know, 579 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,840 inevitably it will slip back at some points into unhelpful 580 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,400 behaviours from people of the group. 581 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,800 You can just remind people, you know, gently, just going back to 582 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,480 these ground rules that we agreed at the beginning, Let's 583 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560 try and stick to them because they're going to help us get the 584 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,520 outcome that we need. Thanks Sophie Marie, any other 585 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,320 tips you'd add? Yeah. 586 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,520 My very, very first ground role in any facilitated conversation 587 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,360 is speak from the eye. I feel like this because as 588 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,920 opposed to you've made me feel like this or you're the person 589 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,160 that's created this situation. So what we're trying to do by 590 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,440 getting to people to speak from the eye is its natural 591 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,680 accountability and responsibility for how you're 592 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:19,080 feeling, but it's also about not directing it personally at 593 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,960 somebody else because you're perfectly entitled to feel the 594 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,520 way that you do. And actually that needs to live 595 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,080 and breathe in these conversations, but it's how it's 596 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,840 positioned. So my very first ground rule is 597 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,720 we speak from the eye. If you want to share something, 598 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,800 you need to take ownership of how you're feeling. 599 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,280 And that's one of the ground rules that in any meeting that 600 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,480 I'm running, whether it's the mediation side or the team 601 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,440 facilitation side that I do doesn't matter where it's always 602 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,320 speak from the eye. And I've done some really, 603 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,960 really testy conversations between managers and union 604 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,160 representatives at quite senior level. 605 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,480 And it's quite interesting seeing how quickly people do 606 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,440 regress back into the you've made me feel and the pointy 607 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,720 finger and all the rest of it. And immediately when you say, 608 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,120 OK, the beginning of today's session, we agreed some ground 609 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,880 rules, the first one being speak from the eye. 610 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,320 Are you doing that and actually asking it as a question as well? 611 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,080 Are you doing that? Are you embodying those ground 612 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,480 rules rather than being a bit of a parent and going, you're not 613 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,440 doing this, which is kind of exacerbating that as well, you 614 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,000 know, asking them, are you avoiding by the ground rules? 615 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,440 They all go a little bit. Oh, actually we're not OK, 616 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,160 reset. And another way you can 617 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,720 challenge that as well is just jumping in every so often with 618 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,360 summaries. So as a facilitator, one of the 619 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,960 things I had to learn very early on was how to summarise. 620 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,120 And actually summarising gives people breathing space. 621 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,360 So when they are getting into blaming language, OK everybody 622 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,040 just step back a second. I'm just going to summarise what 623 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,720 I think I've heard and I automatically summarise it in 624 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,000 terms of this person feels like this, this person feels like 625 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,120 this, but this person's frustrated because of this. 626 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,520 So I push them back into that accountability place as well. 627 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,960 Thank you. That's a really useful tip. 628 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,080 We've been talking about conversations where you know 629 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,040 it's going to happen and perhaps you've got time to prepare or 630 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,480 perhaps you're the one leading it. 631 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,080 Have you got any advice for people who find themselves in an 632 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,640 unexpected, essential, difficult conversation like you? 633 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,920 You just suddenly boss says, can you come jump on a call now? 634 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,760 Can you get to my office now and you've got no idea what's going 635 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,880 to happen. Do you have any advice to people 636 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,920 who find themselves in that situation? 637 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,200 Yeah. And I think that's something, 638 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,000 you know, that we've all probably experienced, isn't it? 639 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,640 Just something completely out of the blue where whether it's your 640 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,600 boss or your client pulls you aside and says actually this 641 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,080 thing you've done isn't good enough or we're going to have to 642 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,120 completely change what you think your job is, You know, something 643 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,680 totally unexpected. And I think all those things 644 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,960 we've been talking about are going to happen. 645 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,320 You know, your nervous response is going to be triggered. 646 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,680 Your body's going to be pumping adrenaline into you and you're 647 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,840 probably going to slip into one. What, however you respond to 648 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,040 those situations, whether it's withdrawing, whether it's being 649 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,560 very defensive, whatever it might be. 650 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,400 So I think the first step is just practising recognising 651 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,040 that. So to recognise, OK, I'm feeling 652 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,600 defensive right now because I've had this bolt from the blue and 653 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,600 it shocked me and I'm it's triggered my nervous system, you 654 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,080 know, doing the breathing, trying to regulate that, doing 655 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,960 that, you know, even if you have time to do that reframing that 656 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,400 Marie was talking about to be saying, OK, this is unexpected, 657 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,640 but I need to hear this. Just starting to do that to 658 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,640 regulate your response. But I would also say if it's a 659 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,760 total bolt from the blue, definitely listen to what the 660 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,080 person is saying. I think it's totally acceptable 661 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,720 to say this has been a big surprise to me. 662 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,200 I really want to listen to what you're saying, but I need a bit 663 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,000 more time to be able to respond. And I think that is, you know, a 664 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,960 very reasonable request. So rather than being confronted 665 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,920 with something that you weren't expecting and having to respond 666 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,520 right away to say, you know, would it be OK if I go away for 667 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,600 whatever it might be? Obviously really depends on the 668 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,560 urgency of the situation. Maybe it's just 10 minutes, 669 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,679 maybe it's overnight. And can we pick it up again 670 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,520 tomorrow so that you are able to get yourself in a better place 671 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,400 to really listen and be able to have a useful, constructive 672 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,239 conversation? Sophie, that's brilliant. 673 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,280 And Marie, anything you'd add to that? 674 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:24,679 So taking the break is definitely important because 675 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,239 that actually allows both sides to step back from the emotion of 676 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,679 the immediacy of of that situation because the other 677 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:32,920 person will be in fight or flight delivering that 678 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,199 information. So, so taking that break is 679 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,560 really, definitely really important so that you have a 680 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,360 better conversation. The thing for me is the more we 681 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,920 practise these skills in situations where we can prepare, 682 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:51,159 it's a lot easier to then drop into that same behaviour when it 683 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:55,360 is unexpected. So one of the things that I have 684 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,200 the luxury of being able to do is being able to stay in that 685 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,120 mindset all the time because it's my job. 686 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,640 My job is to listen. I don't have to have the 687 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,400 answers. And unfortunately, when your day 688 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,640 job is having to fix things and having to put things right, it's 689 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,400 very difficult to switch between the two. 690 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,720 So my view would be don't wait to practise these skills, 691 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:17,440 practise them in all areas of your life because it's not just 692 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,800 about project management, It's not just about the conversation 693 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,120 you have with your colleagues, it's the conversations you have 694 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,720 with your friends. It's the conversations you have 695 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,080 with your parents and your kids. You know when your kids don't 696 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,760 want to put their shoes on in the morning, actually going into 697 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,120 fight or fight with them really doesn't help because all they do 698 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,520 is they become even more childlike and you become even 699 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,600 more parental like and that reinforces those challenging 700 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,920 behaviours. So it is about just taking a 701 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,080 step back, taking time to breathe, all that stuff. 702 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,040 Sophie and I have talked about taking that time to recognise 703 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,600 that for that person that is their truth in that moment. 704 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,400 Whether we agree with it or not is irrelevant, it's the 705 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,600 recognition, it's their truth. Doing that all the time means 706 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,760 that when you are faced with a bolt from the blue, it's a lot 707 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,080 easier to do it because you're not trying to flip into 708 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,400 something you're not used to doing. 709 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,520 How do you become an expert at handling these essential 710 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,080 difficult conversations as well? Most of all, it's about 711 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,000 practising, you know, and if you always avoid difficult 712 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,040 conversations from the little micro, Can you please unload the 713 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,760 dishwasher today? Do the big stuff at work, then 714 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,560 you don't, you don't pick up those skills. 715 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,440 And it, as we've already discussed, it's not something 716 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,200 we're taught at school or even largely in the workplace. 717 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,360 So it has to be something that you kind of pursue yourself. 718 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,120 You do try and address those difficult conversations time and 719 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,280 time again so that you build up that confidence. 720 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,520 And also it by doing that, you disrupt that cycle where in your 721 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,600 head you think this conversation is going to be awful. 722 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,440 So you put it off or you get really nervous about it. 723 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:50,960 And so then it goes really badly. 724 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,000 So then the next time it comes round in your head you think, Oh 725 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,440 no, it's going to be awful because the last conversation I 726 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,400 had like this was awful. But if you practise and you do 727 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,240 your best to make the conversation as constructive as 728 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:04,640 possible, as time goes on, you think actually this probably 729 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,040 won't be so bad because the last few conversations I had like 730 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,400 this were fine and we got what we needed out of them. 731 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,840 So definitely practising. But I think in terms of 732 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,480 behaviour with the risk of really repeating myself, the 733 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,000 number one thing you can probably do is just listen. 734 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,400 And that's the one thing that we don't do enough of is just 735 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,600 listening to other people and not always jumping either to 736 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,720 defence or what we often do is to solutions. 737 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,880 Because sometimes, you know, it's actually not helpful to 738 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,520 jump straight to solutions that actually just sitting in the 739 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,720 moment and listening and can be the most powerful thing you can 740 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:43,120 do. I want to thank both of you so 741 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,760 much for your time and the expertise you've shared with our 742 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,160 listeners. There's a tonne of really useful 743 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,720 stuff that people hopefully will be able to take away and put 744 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:57,360 into practise from the next essential, challenging, 745 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,840 difficult conversation that will happen. 746 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,800 So thanks so much again for your time. 747 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,040 It's been a pleasure speaking to you. 748 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:04,760 Thank you. Thank. 749 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:15,800 You. Thanks again to Marie and Sophie 750 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,960 for joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. 751 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,320 Hopefully you'll put some of their advice into practise, not 752 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,040 only when it comes to thinking about and preparing for tough 753 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,520 conversations, but also how to manage them in a positive way. 754 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,560 Anyway, don't forget to look out for more episodes, all to rate 755 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,760 and review us. Wherever you get your podcasts. 756 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,080 We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 757 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,800 suggestions by emailing us at APM Podcast at 758 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,040 syncpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 759 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,320 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 760 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,880 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.