1 00:00:01,900 --> 00:00:05,900 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:09,000 the project profession. Hi, I'm Emma, defeated. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,100 The editor project apm's quarterly Journal this. 4 00:00:13,100 --> 00:00:15,200 Our crisis talk season of podcasts. 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,800 I'm asking project professionals to share their stories of 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,000 managing adapting and pivoting their projects through lockdown 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,000 and now during this next phase, as restrictions are, he's, so 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,600 thanks for joining me in this episode. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,700 We'll be meeting Joanna Roland director of Her Majesty's, 10 00:00:30,700 --> 00:00:33,500 revenue and customs. Covid-19 Response, Unit 11 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:36,100 responsible for the Department's strategic approach. 12 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:38,900 The pandemic. Joanna, is the senior 13 00:00:38,900 --> 00:00:41,500 responsible officer in charge of delivering the Chancellor's 14 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:44,400 Flagship economic interventions. The job retention 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,100 self-employment Income Support schemes as well as the new eat 16 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:50,900 out help out and job retention bonus schemes. 17 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,500 Joanna is also the head of the project delivery profession for 18 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,700 a channel C and is a fellow of the association for project 19 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:00,600 management. She's been at the very heart of 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,300 the government's response to the pandemic. 21 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:05,800 So it was a privilege to get some time with her to ask what 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,600 it's been like to be in the thick of it. 23 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,500 If you want a detailed blow-by-blow account of how 24 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:13,600 Joanna approach the photo project, please watch out for 25 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,400 y'all to miss your project which will be landing with you in the 26 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,700 middle of September. I spoke to Joanna and early 27 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:23,100 August just after the eat app to help out scheme launch. 28 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,200 We pick up the conversation when she tells me a bit about what 29 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,900 she was working on at the start of 2020. 30 00:01:32,500 --> 00:01:34,800 Joe, welcome. I'm not sure how you've managed 31 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,300 to find the time to speak to me, but we're hugely grateful. 32 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:39,900 Let's begin with. You. 33 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:43,000 Tell me a bit about what you were doing at the beginning of 34 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,700 the year. What projects are you working 35 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:47,200 on? At the sort of 2020 which seems 36 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,900 like a lifetime ago now? Sure. 37 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:51,700 And it does seem like a lifetime ago. 38 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:55,800 So 2020. I was leading making tax digital 39 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,100 for business. That's hmrc's Flagship program, 40 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:04,900 which is intending to And all tax registrations digital, 41 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:08,400 collect all the information digitally, but also more 42 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,600 importantly, help small businesses, particularly manage 43 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,800 their tax Affairs, more easily. And how was that going at the 44 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,100 time? It's going really well. 45 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:22,500 In fact, since I've left and been doing something different. 46 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:27,000 They've just announced the new phase where they'll start to 47 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,800 mandate the use of digital technology for income tax 48 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,500 registrations. So, so, it's picked up a lot of 49 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:38,100 pace actually since I left, although it was busy at that 50 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:40,700 time. So anything to do with the 51 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:43,700 results of the projects, you've been working on as well at the 52 00:02:43,708 --> 00:02:45,600 moment. The success of those has that 53 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,100 accelerated that those projects, one of the things working on 54 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:54,500 these projects has really shown us is sometimes the limitations 55 00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:59,700 of the data we hold and certainly making tax digital has 56 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:05,000 shown that the more Records. We hold the more instant access 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,800 to information. There is the more responsive the 58 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,100 tax system can be. So undoubtedly, it strengthened 59 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:17,600 the business case for making tax digital covid-19 struck, I guess 60 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,700 March maybe earlier for you, but can you tell us what it was like 61 00:03:21,700 --> 00:03:26,600 in the early days of the crisis? I got a call, I think on a 62 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:32,500 Thursday night from my then boss to ask whether I would Go and 63 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,700 Lead, one of the projects that was coming out of the 64 00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:38,900 Chancellor's office. That project was actually the 65 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:42,800 self-employment Income Support scheme and the next morning. 66 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,100 It emerged. There were actually two 67 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:46,900 projects. The other one was the furlough 68 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:51,400 scheme, as it's generally known, although it's their ctrs 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,300 coronavirus job, retention scheme. 70 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:55,800 Is its official name, had this phone call. 71 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:01,200 I then by the Friday morning had a new boss, Melissa Tatton who's 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,600 been A supportive. And it emerged, there was a 73 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,100 third part to this role as well, which was to coordinate the 74 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:12,200 whole of the response to coronavirus across the 75 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,600 department. So it wasn't just to project 76 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,200 manage the schemes. There was also quite a 77 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,100 leadership challenge in in, just at the coordination. 78 00:04:21,100 --> 00:04:26,400 Everything from getting 67,000, people working from home to 79 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:32,000 updating our policies and guidance and also to an extent 80 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,400 Stopping some of the usual activity of the tax system, that 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,200 just were not appropriate to do such as sending our compliance 82 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,300 teams out to do home visits, Etc. 83 00:04:43,100 --> 00:04:46,300 So was it primarily about crisis management? 84 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:51,500 Then there were a few elements in the early days that was 85 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:57,300 certainly crisis management, but I think the first thing I 86 00:04:57,300 --> 00:05:01,200 recognize coming into the Rival, was actually this was going to 87 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,500 stay with us for While. And in a way, the last thing we 88 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:09,400 needed was Crisis management. And what instead what we needed 89 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:14,500 was very controlled leadership and management of this being a 90 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:16,700 project person through. And through, I love a bit of 91 00:05:16,707 --> 00:05:19,300 governance. We all do governance is your 92 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:21,700 best friend. It keeps you in control. 93 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,600 So one of the first jobs of that Friday, was to set up the 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,500 governance structures both for the projects, but also the 95 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:34,900 wider. Our organization to make sure 96 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:39,500 that we could coordinate this in a way that was very controlled 97 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:44,000 and not reactive or crisis management. 98 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,200 Can sometimes mean that you know, you're all headless 99 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,900 chickens and and and the high octane and and that generally 100 00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:55,200 doesn't drive the best decision making that said, the governance 101 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,900 was kept light touch. So it was really important. 102 00:05:59,900 --> 00:06:06,000 But neither was there time for for Or meetings, so I needed to 103 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,000 put in place the governance structure that was able to be 104 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:15,900 highly adaptive really, really efficient fairly light touch but 105 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:20,700 have a iron grip of control around our projects and 106 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:24,200 responses. How did you prioritize things 107 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,800 there? Because a lot of new things were 108 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,300 kind of landed on your desk and as you mentioned the whole shift 109 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:34,900 of working from I'm home. Plus those adrenaline-fueled 110 00:06:34,900 --> 00:06:39,400 days and also a lot of fear around what was happening. 111 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,800 How did you manage to prioritize things so well, and how did you 112 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,600 feel at the time? First of all, I I felt 113 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,700 brilliant. It was, you know, it's what I 114 00:06:51,707 --> 00:06:55,500 love to do. You don't often get something so 115 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:59,400 important, but such a blank canvas as well. 116 00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:02,000 All of this was brand new and needed setting up. 117 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,900 Scratch. And that was an amazing 118 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:08,700 opportunity and certainly a bit of a career highlight for me the 119 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:11,900 priority it was it was risk-based. 120 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,700 So clearly the chancellor schemes were the highest 121 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:20,500 priority and the furlough scheme was the highest of that because 122 00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:23,900 it was the most needed for the economy. 123 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:30,100 So we had only four weeks to get that one designed set up 124 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:34,900 delivered and then operational. The governance to allow the 125 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,200 department to take the weight of the work. 126 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,500 But in a way that was coordinated, was the second 127 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:46,100 highest priority for me. And then, to be really Frank 128 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:49,600 about it. The rest was just really, really 129 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,100 long hours. It's not the way you can work 130 00:07:52,100 --> 00:07:57,200 for long and it's not anything, I endorse but it was just 131 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,000 necessary at that time. So I was 16 hour days was just 132 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:05,100 The norm for the first few weeks. 133 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:09,200 Tell me a bit about how the team came together. 134 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:14,200 You wrote a really great feature for the Autumn issue project 135 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:17,700 explaining in detail, the approach you took to the project 136 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:21,200 and something that impressed me from that was the sense of 137 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,300 collaboration, you know, with many different kind of 138 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:26,500 stakeholders inside. And outside. 139 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,800 Was that something that just came about? 140 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,700 Spontaneously, you had something called ruthlessly simple, which 141 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:36,000 sounds a brilliant idea but was it for? 142 00:08:36,299 --> 00:08:40,500 But she all had a very clear purpose in mind and kept things 143 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:43,400 simple that they needed everyone to collaborate. 144 00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:48,000 There were three things that were very deliberate choices in 145 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,600 those early days. So the first was to set up what 146 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:58,200 I call a hub-and-spoke model. And this is where I literally 147 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,600 grabbed from all corners of hmrc. 148 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,300 Just a handful. I think no more than about 10 or 149 00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:08,900 15. Asked people to run the central 150 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:12,400 project for see duress and then the equivalent for 151 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:18,300 self-employment, but then we reached out across hmrc to get 152 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:21,200 what I called accountable owners for all the different 153 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,200 specialisms. So, you'd get somebody who 154 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,500 specialized in compliance. You did someone who specialized 155 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,600 in operating, our contact centers. 156 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,900 You'd get a lawyer. You'd have obviously the very 157 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:36,400 important, very talented, digital teams all Those 158 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,300 accountable owners, were were responsible for doing their bit 159 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:45,500 completely empowered, completely trusted, but they could not make 160 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:49,100 decisions anywhere other than, as part of that Central project. 161 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:50,900 If they were designing an element. 162 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:53,600 They would need to come back to the project just to make sure it 163 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,600 matches the other elements. So that was the first thing, 164 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,600 this Hub and spoke model where the the people actually doing 165 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,000 the delivery, we're empowered, but the control remained with 166 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,300 the A central project was that of an approach you to used 167 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:13,300 before in other major projects. I have in the past. 168 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:15,900 Not with hmrc. I'm a great believer that 169 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:21,400 projects should transcend normal structures and therefore not be 170 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,800 pigeonholed into structures that they should work across an 171 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,700 organization. Because that's where you get the 172 00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:29,900 whole organization. Partaking as head of project, 173 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:32,400 profession for hmrc. It's been a long-running 174 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,000 ambition of mine to set up projects in that way. 175 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:41,400 And here was my chance. It was my opportunity, the, the 176 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,300 other two elements to how we approach. 177 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:49,100 This was the ruthlessly simple. That was actually a phrase 178 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:54,900 coined by our CIO, very talented, man, and to whom a lot 179 00:10:54,900 --> 00:11:00,200 of the successes Duty and who certain what's his name, Mark. 180 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,300 Denny. He was fantastic at keeping us, 181 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:06,500 all on that principle of ruthlessly simple. 182 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,100 And it meant that we did not get scope. 183 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:13,800 Creep. What we did notice is in the 184 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,700 early days, when four weeks to set up a major 185 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:21,700 multibillion-pound scheme like this felt impossible, keeping. 186 00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:24,500 It ruthlessly simple was actually quite easy. 187 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:29,600 People got the concept as we started to sort of, you know, 188 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,200 make astounding leaps in progress. 189 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:35,100 That's when people started to that sort of. 190 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:39,600 Can you just syndrome? Started to Nippon Mark and I had 191 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,900 to be all over that. And actually, that was our third 192 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:46,400 principle. You need to bulldoze out the way 193 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:52,900 the blockers and sometimes that is sometimes you know, it's a 194 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:58,200 ask politely sometimes. It's actually just really quite 195 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:03,400 assertive structures in place to make sure that you are not 196 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,700 letting anything distract you from getting the job done. 197 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,200 Done. How did you feel you daunted? 198 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,800 Or were you excited in that four weeks, running up to the 199 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,600 furlough scheme? And then of course, the self 200 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,100 employment, scheme went live three weeks after that. 201 00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:24,900 I think I had every emotion that a human being could possibly 202 00:12:24,900 --> 00:12:29,100 have. It was I you know, it ranged 203 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:33,600 from thoroughly, daunted, even terrified actually thinking, you 204 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,800 know, how can the logic Of being able to do this successfully in 205 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,300 such a short period of time. Sometimes just didn't stack up. 206 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:48,200 Even though the evidence was thankfully, before us I had 207 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:53,000 Elation excitement, you know, it was the whole Gambit of 208 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:59,500 emotional response in that time that period of extreme crisis 209 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,200 has passed a bit in business in general, but do you feel you 210 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,700 bonded quite closely with the people you are working? 211 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,400 Beyond that. It's somehow changed that level 212 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,900 of collaboration. Oh, incredibly. 213 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:13,700 Absolutely. Yeah. 214 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:16,200 Really close. And there is people that I've 215 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,000 never physically met. That's the other in credit 216 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,600 because hmrc's such a massive organization. 217 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:26,500 And of course, we had our suppliers capgemini as well as 218 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:30,600 very close partners with us, and there are people that I had 219 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,100 never actually physically been in the same room with that. 220 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:39,300 Now feel like close friends because You bombed, everything 221 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:43,700 was done at PACE, including, you know, bonding with friends. 222 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,100 Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Hopefully you'll meet them soon. 223 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,300 Yes, indeed. Well, we always joked about. 224 00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:53,400 This is going to be one big party. 225 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,400 Yeah, normally and projects, you know, after a successful launch 226 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:04,100 of something, you know, as a program director or SRO one of 227 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:06,500 your duties is them to buy the round. 228 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,700 Selena celebrate. So I can tell you. 229 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:15,600 I owe a lot to drink. I'll be bankrupt. 230 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,400 I'll need a team to bailed. My financial situation out. 231 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,100 I owe that many drinks to that, many people. 232 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:24,700 So you've told us about the way you approach the projects and 233 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:28,000 I'd like to pin you down to find out how you are able to get them 234 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,600 off the ground so quickly because a month start to finish 235 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,000 is pretty amazing. So with a little bit of 236 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,800 hindsight, and I know you're still in there. 237 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:39,900 Thick of things. But what would you say worked in 238 00:14:39,908 --> 00:14:41,800 your favor? What were the things that the 239 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,700 success factors and helping you to get them off the ground. 240 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,200 First of all, most was the senior sponsorship right up to 241 00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:52,100 our permanent? Secretary Jim Hera and the 242 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,600 chancellor himself. They were crystal clear. 243 00:14:55,700 --> 00:15:00,900 This was the number one priority in no way was this competing for 244 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:03,500 time or attention from other things? 245 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,100 Secondly, somebody who's much better at maths and I am worked 246 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:10,700 out that the cumulative hours. We all worked. 247 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,900 Actually, it was an equivalent of something like a 12-week 248 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,200 project because just the evenings weekends extra 249 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,800 overtime, the we were running red hot every single one of us 250 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,200 on that scheme. And you can't sustain that that 251 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,900 is reserved for crisis only and should be reserved for crisis. 252 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:36,200 Only. The other thing is we used 253 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,000 agile. To its absolute best effect. 254 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:43,400 And that was quite new, was it? We've used agile as an approach 255 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:48,400 in hmrc and and indeed my other programs from previous roles 256 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:54,500 that I've done used agile a lot. I do assert though that very 257 00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:57,200 often and I include some of my previous programs. 258 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,200 We don't use our job properly, though. 259 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:06,200 How do you mean agile when done? Well, is even more. 260 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:12,300 UND than waterfall all too often agile is seen as enormously 261 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:15,800 flexible and it is, but it's within controls. 262 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:21,200 So, for example, we launched a minimum viable product. 263 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:26,400 So on the 20th of April, when the fellow scheme went live and 264 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,300 then 13th May when the self employment scheme went live. 265 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,800 They were the the minimum viable products that we could put out 266 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,400 to the public. Behind the scenes. 267 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,300 There was still quite a lot build to do. 268 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:43,500 For example, our internal users, to be able to take manual 269 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:48,900 claims, or for some of the post claim compliance to be done. 270 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,000 So if it wasn't essential scope for day one, it was on a 271 00:16:53,008 --> 00:16:55,600 backlog. Ready to be developed on Day, 2, 272 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,100 3 4, Etc. That's good agile. 273 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:02,200 Good agile. Also, we didn't skimp on 274 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:07,300 quality, the customer absolute came first and We even had time 275 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:11,099 in our schedule to do highly limited private betas with 276 00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:17,400 customers so that we could always get their feedback and it 277 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,800 absolutely had to control every step of the way. 278 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,599 Every decision was recorded. And as I said before every 279 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:29,400 decision came back to the project group to make so that if 280 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,700 a decision was being made by the digital teams that had an impact 281 00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,000 on say the customer service team. 282 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,700 Is that decision was well known and discussed, but the proximity 283 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,800 from decision to development was minimal. 284 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:46,900 So sometimes I'd be in a Chancellor meeting. 285 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:51,200 I'd get a decision from the chancellor and almost assumes 286 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,700 that decision had been made. I've sent the message to someone 287 00:17:55,700 --> 00:18:00,800 who's developing the code. And so our proximity was really, 288 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,800 really close and that's great agile, and the new person is 289 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,500 well with such seeing you. Support was decision-making, 290 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:14,200 made easy for you was I kind of a clear line in decision-making. 291 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,400 Could you make them quite fast? It was always a matter of 292 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,500 judgment when to escalate a decision to the chancellor or to 293 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:28,100 our executive committee rather than make it in program and that 294 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,300 that judgment fell to me to make. 295 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:35,500 Hopefully, I've got the balance right, what I would say though. 296 00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:40,100 It is unusual in the Civil Service, particularly for 297 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:44,100 delivery and project people to be in the room with the 298 00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:46,900 chancellor. Normally you would have the 299 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:53,000 policy development do that, and then the, with a degree of sort 300 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,400 of viability discussion, put in the room, but it's quite late 301 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,200 down the line when people like me are engaged to say, right, 302 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,000 how do we deliver this? Then what we do? 303 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:12,200 Had here was the delivery right in the room and delivery 304 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:16,400 considerations. Therefore were an influence on 305 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,500 policy design. I'm not going to say it always 306 00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:24,200 shaped it because ultimately the policy must do what the 307 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,000 chancellor intended it to do. But the chancellor was able to 308 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,200 hear first hand either, the risked time scale or the 309 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,000 complexities. There were some things that we 310 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,200 were just have to say, we can't do that. 311 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:41,300 That's certainly shaped the Chancellor's thinking and 312 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,400 decision-making. This is partly because delivery 313 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,400 was the priority for that policy. 314 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,200 So that the delivery are you giving money to the people who 315 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,400 needed it as fast as they could. That, that was really what this 316 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,900 game was all about and that you needed to be in the room. 317 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,300 Absolutely. So, normally government policy 318 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:04,100 that delivery timeline is sufficiently. 319 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,000 Far ahead to allow this a bit more. 320 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,800 Cascade approach of policy work and then delivery get hold of 321 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,600 it. And then it's but actually that 322 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,900 creates problems because inevitably by the time you go to 323 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:21,500 deliver it, there are things that there are complexities in 324 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:25,500 there that need navigating that creates later today. 325 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,500 We couldn't afford for that to happen. 326 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:31,600 So it made it faster and made it far more efficient. 327 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,200 And I think you know, I can't speak of him, but I think the 328 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,000 chancellor appreciated having that advice. 329 00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:39,900 On hand, were there, any other success factors that you want to 330 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:42,900 mention? I know for example that the it 331 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:49,100 systems in place already and the hmrc service for for customers 332 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,000 was already working very well. And that must have been some of 333 00:20:52,008 --> 00:20:55,500 the work you're involved with previous to these projects, but 334 00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:58,900 that must have contributed to the success to have that already 335 00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,900 in place. We've got a really, really good 336 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,700 technical team. And as I say, Mark, Denny's, 337 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:08,000 come in, and With a few colleagues. 338 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,900 Really shaken up the system for a long time. 339 00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:16,100 We've had an IT strategy to create a new platform of far 340 00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:23,300 more agile platform that we can develop microservices into and 341 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:27,900 eventually also swap out some of our Legacy systems and head of 342 00:21:27,908 --> 00:21:33,800 Duty, we did to take the very deliberate design decision early 343 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:38,000 to reuse existing technology not Got to go and buy and try 344 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,600 untested. We also took the decision not to 345 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:46,600 integrate more than we had to into any of our heads of Duty 346 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:52,200 system because it's the integration that takes the time 347 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:58,100 but also it's the calling off different Services all ads load 348 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,300 to the system and and the volumes. 349 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:04,300 We were getting at one point on self-employment. 350 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:08,400 I think on day two. We were getting so many 351 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,800 thousands and thousands of hits every minute. 352 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:15,500 It was actually more than Google get as a platform. 353 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,600 This platform needed to be an absolute Beast. 354 00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:21,500 We started calling it a Ferrari. I think we've just upgraded it 355 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:26,100 to me a beast now, because the volumes it had to cope with, but 356 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:29,800 our technical teams and our Architects were excellent. 357 00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:34,500 At really thinking through ways to minimize load, on the system. 358 00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:39,200 So that all the The power was pointing to coping with the 359 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,600 volume. Did it fall over at all. 360 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:48,100 Now, it had hadn't at also day two, at that really piqued mind. 361 00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:52,000 We were a little bit worried. We had a about a scary half an 362 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:59,100 hour where steam was starting to come out of the engine, but they 363 00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:01,200 got control of it really, really quickly. 364 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,000 We used front-end tools, which allow people to queue for the 365 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,700 And let them in an order. So we deployed that and that 366 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:14,700 brought it under control. But, no, we've had, we've had a 367 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:19,200 few external issues. I think an external service went 368 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,600 down which had some minor impact on us, but no, their system 369 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,300 coped. Brilliantly everyone in our 370 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:31,000 technical department is odor, huge amounts of congratulations, 371 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,300 but didn't you receive some praise from Tim berners-lee? 372 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,400 Yes. I think we Reduce. 373 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,100 Yes, it's been incredible. Actually, although all the 374 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:43,600 praise is slightly tinted with an element of shocked and 375 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,200 surprised and there's been some brilliant comments about well, I 376 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,200 never thought I'd be thanking the taxman and things like that. 377 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:56,000 So but we love it and everybody in hmrc is immensely, proud of 378 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,500 everything that has been achieved. 379 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,200 Well, I mean, I sit you're right and I think it's boosted the 380 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,800 reputation of hmrc massively and we want to continue that at. 381 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,800 So we were Launching just before all of this happened something 382 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,300 called a health of a tax system. So what does a healthy tax 383 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:22,100 system looks like and it's one that's fair transparent and that 384 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:27,600 the public trust and we know that the way we conduct 385 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,500 ourselves with our customers is an important part of that trust 386 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:35,800 in a tax system. So and it's really fortunate. 387 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,100 That timing because now we do need to still be collecting tax. 388 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:46,300 And there are many people out there who may default on their 389 00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:48,800 tax payments. Just because of the economic 390 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,000 circumstances are in. It's really important that we 391 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,700 treat our customers with compassion on things like that. 392 00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:02,600 And and I think so the great reputation we've earned with 393 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,600 proud of but we know we need to work. 394 00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:10,800 To maintain it. Have you measured the success of 395 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,600 the covid-19 projects you've been working on, so we've got 396 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,700 lots of the metrics you'd expect so usage. 397 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:21,200 How much money is gone out the door? 398 00:25:21,208 --> 00:25:26,700 And we'll do a lot of analysis particularly on tdrs later down 399 00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:30,700 the line when we can see, you know, how many businesses of 400 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:35,400 sort of retained employees. And that's that's linked to the 401 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,500 employment. Entre tension bonus that the 402 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,900 Chancellor's announced what I would say though, my personal 403 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:43,800 measure success has been the customer feedback. 404 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,700 We've had some heartbreaking. Tales. 405 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,300 There was one gentleman that called from his sick bed in 406 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:56,200 hospital. He was suffering with covid was 407 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,900 unable to work and the self-employment Grant was a real 408 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:06,700 lifeline and one of our advisors because he can access Computer 409 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,100 took his claim over the phone and just when I heard that 410 00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:13,000 story, it brought tears, to my eyes. 411 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,200 It's just things like that, make it worth it. 412 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,500 And that's the success for me. Well, if you don't from the 413 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:23,400 whole experience has anything positive come from this or 414 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,400 anything that surprised you lots is come from, there's lots and 415 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,200 lots of and some of it's not surprising, some of it's 416 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,800 actually what we've probably known for years, but need to 417 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,200 just now get on with things like Like getting delivery advice 418 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,700 upfront things like working more collaboratively. 419 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,100 We are undertaking Lessons Learned in hmrc. 420 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:50,600 We always do after any project but I think this will be a bit 421 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,400 of a Tipping Point for us to set our projects up slightly 422 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,300 differently. How do you mean? 423 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:02,900 So a to work agile properly as I described earlier, but be it's 424 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:08,200 the way we set up the teams. It's The the role of a project 425 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,400 leader and project, managers is about the control, the pace and 426 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,800 the coordination, but it's the experts should do the delivery. 427 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,500 Sometimes the way we set up our programs means there's a lot of 428 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:26,800 people standing between decision-maker and deliverer and 429 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,100 it can slow the process down. So I think we need leaner more 430 00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:35,800 streamlined program structures one. 431 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,600 Ones that are genuinely collaborative and ones that 432 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,100 cross cut the organizational structure. 433 00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:47,800 There are some enduring lessons that will be your hope is that 434 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,100 they will be subsumed within kind of normal work in practice 435 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:54,500 in the future. Absolutely. 436 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:58,800 And indeed our lessons. Learn our intern, feeding the 437 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:04,000 civil service reform agenda that cabinet office and indeed the 438 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,800 Prime Minister himself is leading. 439 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,700 What have been the hardest things you've had to contend 440 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:12,900 with professionally? And personally, the hardest 441 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:19,200 thing has been keeping you resilience up, i-i'm mentioned 442 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,100 to you. There's this old adjective not 443 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:28,400 hearing the pilots cream. And and so therefore I think at 444 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,500 the hardest points, it everyone else around me understandably 445 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:39,600 was, you know, had their And of losing their nerve or getting a 446 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,700 sort of the Jitters of just how enormous this was, and how risky 447 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:50,000 it all was. And of course, as the leader of 448 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,300 this, both of your teams, but you across the organization, 449 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:58,300 you'll see, even your seniors. You're the one that has to stay 450 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:03,400 Resolute and show complete confidence, even if inside your 451 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,000 knees are shaking a little bit. And that, that was, that's been 452 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,100 the biggest challenge for out that because you need to look 453 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:15,800 after yourself in it. And that's in a way working from 454 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,300 home. At the time, was I think what 455 00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:21,400 really saved my resilience because I had my family around 456 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,400 me, every given moment of the day and if I just needed a 457 00:29:25,408 --> 00:29:29,000 breather a couple of minutes to catch my breath on something, 458 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:32,800 you know, you could go and sort of give you kids a cuddle or 459 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:37,900 find the cat. It brings you back down to the 460 00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:40,100 ground. Yes, absolutely. 461 00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:44,500 And my husband certainly needed his own fair share of resilience 462 00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:48,200 putting up with me. I'm sure what, what, what did 463 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,800 you enjoy? The most from The Experience, 464 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,600 Elder. People it without doubt. 465 00:29:55,500 --> 00:30:00,100 So when the service is go live, we actually for the first two, 466 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:03,600 we put them live a couple of hours early because you start to 467 00:30:03,608 --> 00:30:06,200 just see a little bit of traffic come through even though, The 468 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:13,000 publish time was 8 a.m. And it's and we're using chat 469 00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,800 bars to sort of communicate all the time. 470 00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:21,100 And so I was up at 5:30. The sun's Rising as the services 471 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:25,300 are launching and there are just a few of us that were got 472 00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:30,600 particularly close all on chat and it was like, you know, no 473 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,900 feeling quite like it their sense of togetherness, but 474 00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:38,600 excitement and fear and It was just incredible. 475 00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:42,600 I wanted to ask you more. Generally, if you think the 476 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,500 experience of the past few months will give project 477 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,700 managers and the project profession more of the 478 00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:51,500 recognition. It deserves within large 479 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,300 organizations. I hope so. 480 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,900 I really you know, and that's why I'm grateful for the 481 00:30:57,908 --> 00:31:01,100 opportunity to speak with you. I'm really, really Keen to 482 00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:04,900 promote the fact that it was project management disciplines 483 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,300 that were Real part of this success and it was project 484 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:12,500 management advice, right? At the point of conceiving the 485 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:15,600 policies that was part of the success. 486 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,200 That isn't to distract when hugely talented policy teams and 487 00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:24,500 all the people who did The graft, but project management, 488 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:29,800 coordinates it and and is the thing up, that turns the 489 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,600 ingredients of success into success, but do you think the 490 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,700 Civil Service? Has a way to go to Value 491 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,400 delivery more and I think that Tipping Point has now come in 492 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,400 the private sector delivery is everything because until it's 493 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,900 delivered. It's not making money or serving 494 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:51,600 the customer or serving the purpose. 495 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,900 We do need to have more of that in civil service and that's 496 00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:58,800 definitely something being recognized as part of the civil 497 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,900 service reform. Finally. 498 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:04,400 I'd like to ask you what you're working on right now. 499 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:06,100 If you can tell us about the go live. 500 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,200 That you're doing today and also the winding down on the furlough 501 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,700 scheme, which will be in October. 502 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:16,900 So just what do you think the next couple of months will hold 503 00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:20,000 for you? So as you say the eat out to 504 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,600 help out scheme is now live. I've used it myself plenty times 505 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:31,700 this week, but businesses will need to claim back the money and 506 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:35,000 it's important that we give them opportunity to do that quickly 507 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,300 because of cash. Constraints. 508 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,500 So, the first Claims can be made tomorrow. 509 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,400 So today is the final testing checking and retesting of the 510 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,800 technology of the claim service. And we've got a few private beta 511 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:55,300 customers using it as we speak, that will run to the end of 512 00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:58,200 August. But as you say, we've also got 513 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,200 self-employment, second grant for that is available as of two 514 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,200 weeks time, and then we've got the wind down. 515 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,000 Town of both, the self employment scheme and the job 516 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,300 retention scheme. That's going to keep us very 517 00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:15,600 busy until the end of this calendar year at least. 518 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:18,100 Well, I just want to say thank you Joanna. 519 00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:19,700 It's been brilliant. Talking to you. 520 00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:23,100 Thank you. Wish you good luck and some time 521 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:25,300 off at the end of the year. Yes. 522 00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:29,000 Thank you. Thanks again to Joanna for 523 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000 joining us and to you for listening to this final episode 524 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,100 of opm's Crisis talk series. Look out for the upcoming new 525 00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:38,400 podcast, season and project innovation. 526 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,300 And restarting, the economy to come in. 527 00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:43,600 The following weeks. This podcast has been brought to 528 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,000 you by APM the chartered body for the project profession. 529 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,100 For more information a p.m. Visit, a p.m. 530 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:51,600 Dot org.uk.