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Hello, and welcome to the APM 
Podcast. 

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My name is Professor Adam 
Bodison, and I'm the Chief 

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Executive of APM and your host 
today. 

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We're delighted in this episode 
to welcome to the podcast Gareth

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Taylor. 
Gareth was recently appointed a 

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Nuclear Sector Director at 
Turner and Townsend, having 

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previously spent over six years 
at the Nuclear Decommissioning 

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Authority, or as we prefer to 
call it, the NDA. 

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Gareth has over 25 years of 
experience in the nuclear 

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industry and has held a range of
senior leadership roles. 

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At the NDA. 
He led transformative programmes

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to improve asset management, 
programme delivery and 

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operational efficiency across EU
KS Nuclear estate, and his work 

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included implementing A 
programme management and asset 

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management strategy that 
identified over £10 billion 

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worth of savings and advancing 
net zero air goals. 

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So a mechanical engineer by 
background, Gareth's earlier 

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career included roles at EDF 
Energy and British Energy. 

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So Gareth, thanks very, very 
much for joining us today. 

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It's a pleasure to have you on 
the podcast. 

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And maybe to kick us off, let's 
talk a little bit about you. 

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Can you give us a sense of your 
background and your career 

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journey to date? 
Thank you Adam, and thank you 

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for the warm welcome. 
I'm delighted to be here today 

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and pretty important spending 
the afternoon with you. 

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So yeah. 
So a bit about me then. 

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So Gareth Taylor, I live in 
South Wales, I studied at 

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Bristol and a mechanical 
engineer by qualification, 

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started my career in aerospace 
and then progressed into an 

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energy utility where I was in a 
mechanical engineering role. 

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And I pretty soon realised that 
perhaps solely the engineering 

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aspects weren't for me. 
And so I started my journey into

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project management from early in
my career, starting with roles 

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in project engineering, then 
some site engineering, 

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construction management, 
starting to then pick up my own 

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projects and then delivering 
bigger projects to various 

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levels of complexity and size. 
Culminated in my role as a 

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Programme Delivery Director at 
Hinckley Point C, the new 

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nuclear project in Somerset. 
We're left in 2019 to join the 

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Nuclear Decommissioning 
Authority. 

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As you've said, when I left 
there earlier this year, I was 

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the Group Performance 
Improvement Director with 

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responsibility for projects, 
Programmes, operations, asset 

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management and engineering. 
So yeah, Projects has been a 

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current throughout my career and
I'm a real advocate, as you 

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know, Adam, of the APM and the 
great work that it does. 

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Wow, that's, it's quite the 
career. 

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And I, yes, you, you've been a 
long standing champion of APM, 

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but I would say also the, the, 
the profession more broadly. 

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And, and I think what one of my 
takeaways from that is that you 

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know, you're, you, you've kind 
of one of these people who kind 

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of spans multiple professions. 
You know, as we know, you've got

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the engineering side of things, 
you've got the leadership side 

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of things, you've got the 
project side of things. 

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So to have you really kind of 
getting behind the profession 

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this way means a lot. 
Maybe tell us a bit more about 

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your current role then, Gareth, 
because you're obviously in this

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role as a nuclear sector 
director. 

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What what, what does that 
involve? 

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And can maybe share some 
examples of the kind of projects

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you're currently working on? 
Yeah, sure. 

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So I've delighted to join Turn 
in Townsend a little over six 

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weeks ago. 
Turn in Townsend is a global 

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leader in project delivery. 
My role is to lead the nuclear 

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sector in the UK. 
So working closely with our 

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clients and the supply chain 
that deliver successful 

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outcomes. 
So we're present across various 

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projects in the nuclear life 
cycle. 

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By that I mean from early stages
of of manufacturing, fuel 

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manufacture, mining through into
new builds into operations, 

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decommissioning and also in 
future supporting future 

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investments as well. 
So a really varied portfolio. 

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Locally in the UK we we're 
present at Hinkley Point C as I 

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mentioned where I previously 
worked and the great work that 

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the team are doing there. 
We're also present at Sizewell 

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C, the sister station to Hinkley
Point, another big nuclear power

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station that is being built 
that's going to provide power to

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7% of the UK both at Hinkley and
at size or so major energy 

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infrastructure being built 
there. 

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We're also supporting the next 
wave of nuclear reactors and 

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keen to be involved in that 
programme of small modular 

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reactors and advanced modular 
reactors as the as they progress

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into the UK. 
So quite a varied portfolio in 

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terms of the new energy. 
But also we're keen to support 

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the legacy as well and existing 
operations. 

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And also the great work that the
Nuclear Decommissioning 

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Authority do and its subsidiary 
companies in making sure that 

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the legacy nuclear sites that we
have are dealt with 

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appropriately, safely and 
sustainably to encourage a 

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bright future for the nuclear 
industry. 

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So important times, we bring a 
lot of cross sector experience 

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in Turner and Townsend and 
that's something which I think 

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the nuclear industry can benefit
from and does benefit from as 

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well as transferring from the 
nuclear sector into other 

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sectors. 
So exciting times, delighted to 

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be here. 
That's great. 

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And, and you know, for our 
listeners that there'll be 

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people who are listening to this
who work in the nuclear sector 

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or have worked in a nuclear 
sector and know all about it. 

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My, my experience is that most 
people when you talk to them 

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about nuclear, they only know 
what they've seen maybe on the 

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news or the television. 
They have a very kind of 

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polarised view maybe of nuclear.
I know that in your work you've 

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kind of done everything you've 
described some of it there, the 

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full nuclear life cycle, if I 
call it that, from kind of new 

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build right through to 
decommissioning to help our 

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listeners kind of understand the
kind of the breadth of nuclear 

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as a sector. 
I wonder if you can give some 

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examples of, of the big projects
or some of the most significant 

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projects from your career, maybe
the ones that taught you the 

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most, the ones that were really 
complex. 

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And, and I'll just help people, 
I think understand the the 

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breadth of it. 
It's not just, you know, it's 

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not only nuclear power stations,
for example, There's, there's, 

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there's lots of other things 
going on, right? 

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Yeah. 
So I agree, Adam, I think it's 

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important that people are 
informed of what nuclear power 

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can bring and, and the nuclear 
sector in general. 

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And and I think it's important 
that if I'm an energy generation

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capacity, nuclear is important 
to be part of a mix. 

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It's not the only install 
solution. 

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So I've been involved in a 
variety of projects in the 

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nuclear sector and some of 
fairly large scale like I've 

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described around building new 
power stations, but also some in

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terms of helping maintain the 
existing power stations. 

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So in terms of the nucleus 
sector, it kind of starts with 

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you need to get a fuel and fuel 
is mined. 

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The fuel is then manufactured 
and so it can be used. 

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It's then used placing what we 
call the reactor. 

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And the reactor is effectively 
the kettle of the power station.

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It creates A fission reaction 
that generates heat and then 

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then creates steam that can then
drive a turbine that generates 

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electricity. 
So then that part is quite 

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traditional and simple with 
other conventional modes of 

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electricity generation. 
The significance of nuclear is 

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it has nuclear waste that needs 
to be managed carefully and 

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sustainably. 
And that's where the Nuclear 

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decommissioning Authority play a
vital role in creating routes 

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for the waste to be transported 
and transferred and then 

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importantly managed for the 
legacy of its life. 

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So all under it's under 
controlled, it's well regulated 

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and undertaken by some real 
professionals including many 

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from the projects and programmes
profession, but also from 

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engineering, commercial and 
other technical aspects. 

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Yeah, I know that that's been 
really helpful. 

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Thank you. 
And, and I suppose I'll just say

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as well for our listeners that 
this is actually the second 

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nuclear podcast I've I've done. 
So I did one I wouldn't say 

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about the 18 months ago now with
Professor Sir Nigel Thrift and 

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he was talking a lot about the 
geological disposal facility and

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about the some, some of the 
complexities around that and so 

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on. 
So for those people who are who 

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are enjoying this conversation, 
who also want to find out more 

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about the, the kind of the 
nuclear waste and disposal side 

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of things, that's a particularly
good one to, to, to, to look up 

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after you've listen to this one.
OK, well, let's talk about 

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leadership and particularly 
project leadership in the 

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context of scaling up nuclear 
activity in the UK. 

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Clearly leadership is important 
in any sector and in any 

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profession, but from what, from 
your perspective, what are the 

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kind of main challenges around 
project and leadership that come

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up when you're trying to scale 
up specifically in the nuclear 

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sector within the UK? 
Yeah, good question. 

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And so I think I look at the 
challenge as an opportunity. 

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And so the nuclear sector can 
bring a lot of opportunity for 

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people. 
It's a first of a kind in many 

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instances because we've not 
built power stations in the UK, 

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nuclear power stations in the UK
since the 80s and 90s. 

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So Hinkley Point C was a first 
of a kind in that guard and the 

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kind of skills and experience in
the supply chain had had 

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evaporated over that time. 
So that presents the opportunity

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to regrow it, create 
opportunities for the supply 

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chain, create opportunities for 
partners, create opportunities 

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for most importantly people. 
There's a real opportunity to 

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regenerate skills across the 
industry for generations to 

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come. 
There's an opportunity for us to

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create vibrant communities in 
the power with in the stations 

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that are built often in remote 
locations so they can be a real 

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heart and soul of of a community
and really create a legacy for 

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the future. 
So, so Gareth, you know, thank 

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you for talking about that. 
And one of the things you 

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mentioned in your, in your 
answer there was about this kind

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of almost loss of institutional 
memory, if I call it that, over 

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time, sector memory, where 
people who've been involved in, 

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in nuclear, you know, decades 
ago and you know, because we 

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haven't built any power stations
in a long time, that that was 

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kind of lost and we had to 
rebuild that from scratch. 

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We're obsessed in the project 
profession about learning 

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lessons. 
On this podcast, we're always 

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talking about learning lessons 
and applying lessons in, in, in 

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your sense, how you know, if you
were given advice to, to whether

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it be to government or, or 
decision makers about how, how 

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do we learn the lessons of, of 
that, of that gap, if you like, 

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that we had in the past to make 
sure that after we build these 

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power stations, we don't make 
that same mistake again and go 

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say, yeah, we're good now for 
another 50 years. 

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You know, how do we keep that 
that that that new talent, that 

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new set of skills that we've 
developed kind of live and 

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kicking in fresh for the next 50
a hundred years and avoid making

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that same mistake again? 
What advice would you give to 

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the policy makers? 
I think you keep it live kicking

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in fresh as you said, Adam by 
using it and continuing to grow 

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it. 
And so building a fleet of small

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modular reactors, building more 
larger scale nuclear reactors, 

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maintaining a steady flow of 
development and project work at 

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the Nuclear Decommissioning 
Authority so that that 

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capability is maintained and can
be grown and sustained for the 

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future. 
So I think it's using it as key 

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and interestingly around lessons
learnt, whether it be 

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specifically from first of a 
kind projects is making sure 

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that we do embed the learning 
and not just capture the 

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learning. 
And I think that's important 

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that it's done in a systematic 
way such that it does and also 

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through our people. 
You know, the best way to 

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transfer lessons is through both
people and and through the 

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energy that they can bring by 
transferring to different 

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projects, bringing that 
experiences, bringing that 

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learning, bringing those 
characters to really help others

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gain and benefit from that. 
Yeah, that makes good sense. 

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I was, as we were talking, I was
thinking about the rail sector 

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and you know, we've got all of 
this experience from, you know, 

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whether we think HS 2 is a good 
or a bad thing. 

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We've certainly developed a lot 
of capability in rail, you know,

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whilst we've been funding that 
project. 

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And one of the interesting 
things I've seen is that other 

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countries, take Australia, for 
example, where they're doing 

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metros in Sydney and, and 
Melbourne and so on. 

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They are tapping into the 
workforce that's been developed 

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in the UK. 
So it ends up being, we end up 

230
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,920
being a bit of a, a net exporter
of skills as well. 

231
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,440
So there's this, I always feel 
there's a bit of kind of, I 

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00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,880
don't know, system generosity 
to, to, to what we're doing in 

233
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,240
the UK as well. 
Maybe maybe that's something in 

234
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,240
the nuclear space that we can 
replicate as well. 

235
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,520
Because I know there are some 
countries that are further down 

236
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,560
the line than those, but there's
equally plenty that looking to 

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00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,080
develop the kind of skills and 
capability that we've been 

238
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,760
building up and to and to move 
in the direction that we're 

239
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,960
moving. 
So yeah, that'll be a one to 

240
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,040
watch, I think. 
OK, let's talk a little bit more

241
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,800
about skills because one of the 
things I've observed, and by the

242
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,880
way, challenge me on this if you
think I'm, I'm going off on a 

243
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,960
tangent here, Karen, But one of 
the things I've observed is that

244
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,520
I see job descriptions for 
project professionals in the 

245
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,440
nuclear sector, which will 
insist that they have experience

246
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,640
of the nuclear sector itself. 
To what extent if you're kind of

247
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,640
taking people on in nuclear, is 
that a kind of an essential 

248
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,440
versus a desirable in terms of 
the skills? 

249
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,600
Is it more important to have the
project background? 

250
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,200
And then you can and then you've
got other kind of nuclear 

251
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,960
experts around you or actually 
do you want nuclear experts and 

252
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,160
then you want to kind of teach 
them the project kind of skills 

253
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,920
and and competences. 
I know obviously in an ideal 

254
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,440
world, you'd want both, right? 
I get that. 

255
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,920
But it you know, if you if 
you're pressed into one or the 

256
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,840
other, because there is this big
skills voltage out there, which 

257
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,880
way do you lean? 
It's not one-size-fits-all, I 

258
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,960
think would be my my summary. 
Adam, I think there are certain 

259
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,280
roles where nuclear experience 
is required and particularly if 

260
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,120
you're dealing with the nuclear 
aspects of the power station, It

261
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,000
was a power station or mutually 
material. 

262
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,520
It was managing waste or so I 
think that's important, but 

263
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,640
that's not all of the work and 
it doesn't need to be all of the

264
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,320
people. 
You know, the project profession

265
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,320
can be applied across all sorts 
of scale of work. 

266
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,120
So let's not be fearful. 
Let's not create unicorns of 

267
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,000
people that can only do the job 
if they've already done the job,

268
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,880
which is clearly you're not the 
case and shouldn't be the case. 

269
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,880
And so I think the profession 
has really matured as the 

270
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,960
project profession and through 
the chartership is now available

271
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,400
through the APM. 
That's really created some real 

272
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,160
kudos and clarity in how project
professionals can conduct 

273
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,360
themselves and how they can 
really bring that rigour and 

274
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,080
that robustness that typically 
is required in high hazard 

275
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,600
industry. 
So I think it's role dependent, 

276
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,840
but I would say for most of the 
roles having nuclear expertise 

277
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,240
and experience is desirable but 
not always essential. 

278
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,520
Yeah, no, I really like that. 
And, and, and what what struck 

279
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,320
me about what you were saying 
there was it's a bit like you 

280
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,080
talk about the maturity of the 
project profession. 

281
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,600
It reminded me of other 
professions. 

282
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,320
So I was thinking if you were an
accountant, for example, nobody 

283
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,600
is worried about the accountants
who goes from nuclear to IT to 

284
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,400
healthcare to pharmaceuticals to
construction or whatever, 

285
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,120
because we're employing them 
because they're a good 

286
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,320
accountant, right? 
I mean, that's, but, but 

287
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,120
actually if they had domain 
experience, they could be an 

288
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,240
even better accountant, even 
more valuable. 

289
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,640
But actually it doesn't stop 
them being appointed in the 1st 

290
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,840
place. 
And, and the idea that that's 

291
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,120
kind of linked with maturity of 
the profession, I think is a 

292
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,080
really, really good insight to 
know. 

293
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,080
Thank you for that. 
Let's talk about kind of 

294
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:39,240
teamwork, because obviously when
you've got people with different

295
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,720
skills, different experiences, 
it's going to be important that 

296
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,040
that that that they can work 
together and that you can get 

297
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,640
the most out of people. 
And to do that, it's often means

298
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,080
you've got to have a great 
leader to kind of get the most 

299
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,400
the most out of those teams. 
In your opinion, what is the 

300
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,320
most important traits or traits 
of a of a great project leader? 

301
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,560
So I live my life by my values, 
Adam. 

302
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,040
So integrity and honesty is 
something which is dear to me. 

303
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,599
But from a leadership 
perspective, I think 

304
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,800
authenticity and ambition is 
vital because that creates 

305
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,359
inspiration. 
And as a leader it's about 

306
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,359
inspiring people to be the best 
they can be because they want to

307
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,359
be it. 
So creating that environment 

308
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,680
that they are comfortable in 
that gets the best out of them 

309
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,200
to deliver successful outputs 
and successful outcomes. 

310
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,120
So I think that's that's really 
important in the leaders for 

311
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:36,960
today. 
They don't need to be the best 

312
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,640
technical experts. 
They don't need to have the most

313
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,800
commercial acumen. 
They don't need to have the most

314
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,000
construction experience. 
They need to have a mixture. 

315
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,240
But I think it's important that 
they can engage across the 

316
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,920
profession and engage the right 
people such that the project is 

317
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,360
successful in delivering its 
output and the programme is 

318
00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:59,320
successful in delivering its 
outcomes. 

319
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:01,960
Yeah, no, that, that, that makes
sense. 

320
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,560
And, and, and I suppose if I, 
you know, if I play devil's 

321
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,400
advocate, I listen to what 
you've just said. 

322
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,480
And with the exception of the 
bit where you talk about a 

323
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,440
project and a programme at the 
end, you could say what you've 

324
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,000
talked about. 
It's just good leadership 

325
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,800
generally. 
I mean, is there a difference in

326
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,200
your mind between, you know, 
really impactful and effective 

327
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,320
leadership in a kind of project 
or programme sense versus, you 

328
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,160
know, just good and effective 
leadership full stop or are they

329
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,360
the same? 
I think the similarities, but 

330
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,720
they're not directly the same 
and this is what I said earlier 

331
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,080
about the the profession and how
the professions really garnered 

332
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,000
respect. 
I think historically someone who

333
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,800
was perhaps a good organiser, 
who understood the technical 

334
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,520
aspects was put into a role as 
the project manager, but didn't 

335
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,120
really have the core skills of 
project management in pulling 

336
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,200
A-Team together to get the sick 
most, the best from everywhere. 

337
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,000
So I think that is a skill that 
you use around. 

338
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,880
And there's tools and techniques
obviously that we use in 

339
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:04,280
projects around how we measure, 
manage scope, how we deliver a 

340
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,880
schedule, how we manage risk, 
how we manage cost and so how we

341
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,360
manage stakeholders. 
So they are tools and techniques

342
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,560
that people need to know, need 
people need to deploy. 

343
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,120
They're not just something that 
people pick up as a secondary to

344
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,520
the day job. 
So I think yes, there's a real 

345
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,800
connection with good leadership,
but you need to have the skills 

346
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,320
and techniques to deliver 
successful projects. 

347
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,360
Yeah, that's, that's 
interesting. 

348
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,920
And, and and you know, one of 
the things I've observed because

349
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,840
sometimes we talk about the kind
of image problem that project 

350
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,360
management has or the project 
profession has. 

351
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,720
And, and I think it don't think 
it's actually the project 

352
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,240
profession that has an image 
problem. 

353
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,640
I think it's project management.
And I don't think that's 

354
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,560
actually to do with projects. 
I think it's to do with 

355
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,080
management. 
I, everyone I meet wants to be a

356
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,480
leader, Gareth, but nobody wants
to be a manager, right? 

357
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,560
Because that's, that's the bit 
that has all of the, the 

358
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,400
technical things that you have 
to learn and all the difficult 

359
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,760
people issues and all of that 
type of stuff. 

360
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,480
And everyone wants to kind of 
leapfrog that bit to become a 

361
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,680
leader. 
In my experience, the best 

362
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,920
leaders I've met and worked with
over the years. 

363
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,000
They're often the people who've 
done the hard yards in 

364
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,960
management somewhere. 
And so I've got this theory. 

365
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,080
I'm just going to sound this out
now. 

366
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,960
You can tell me whether you 
think this is sensible or not, 

367
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,400
that if you've been a project 
professional, probably a project

368
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,240
manager at some point in that 
journey. 

369
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,360
I think that is probably one of 
the best groundings you can get 

370
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,680
for being a really effective 
leader at some point in the 

371
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:38,400
future because you you learn 
these techniques, these skills, 

372
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,240
these approaches, you've got all
these tools that you described 

373
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,840
just a moment ago. 
And just having those in your, 

374
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,200
in your toolbox, as it were, as 
as a leader, I think just makes 

375
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,240
you a more effective leader. 
Am I on to something here, or am

376
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,680
I just down the yellow brick 
road somewhere in another world?

377
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,440
No, I think you're right and I 
think it's an example of what we

378
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,000
spoke about earlier about 
learning and how you put 

379
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,960
learning into practise. 
So I've been involved in lots of

380
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,360
different projects, some really 
quite large projects, multi 

381
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:09,160
billion # projects. 
What have been involved in some 

382
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,800
projects that were hundreds of 
thousands of pounds were much 

383
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,520
smaller scale. 
And with size becomes scale and 

384
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,520
it's how you manage the scale. 
But with the complexity is 

385
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,320
really something that is 
challenging in projects. 

386
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,360
And so I think that's really 
important because I've learned 

387
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,600
probably the most from the 
projects that have not gone so 

388
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,400
well. 
And I've been involved in a few 

389
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,160
of those where we may have 
sometimes delivered the output 

390
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,440
at the end, but we had some 
bumps along the way, perhaps in 

391
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,360
terms of how we contracted it, 
perhaps how we manage the scope.

392
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,440
I've also been involved where 
the project has gone very 

393
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,080
smoothly, but the output at the 
end didn't always meet the 

394
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,120
expectations. 
And so we needed to make some 

395
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:50,840
adaptations. 
So I think it is both, and you 

396
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,760
learn a lot from that. 
And I think knowing that you've 

397
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,560
been there and managed it and 
been in the shoes of the people 

398
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,920
who are leading the work and 
knowing how they feel, I think 

399
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,200
is an in vital ingredient of 
project leadership. 

400
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,040
It's not something you can just 
learn from a textbook. 

401
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,800
You're learning through doing. 
And I think that's really 

402
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,440
important point for the 
profession and in terms of how 

403
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,480
we charter our people in the 
evidence that we that we provide

404
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,080
to give it that credentials and 
that real respect that it's now 

405
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,880
got. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

406
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:22,880
That makes sense there. 
Thank you. 

407
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,400
Now thinking about the 
profession more broadly, now we 

408
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,040
we know the profession, we love 
the profession, we're part of 

409
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,320
it, but there's lots of people 
out there that that either don't

410
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,960
know it or they think it's 
something different. 

411
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,720
I mean, for example, you 
mentioned earlier on that 

412
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,120
sometimes people who are good 
organisers end up kind of being 

413
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,480
the project manager, you know, 
because they can get stuff done 

414
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,920
or something like that, which is
almost a, a misrepresentation of

415
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,760
like the real skills and, and, 
and competencies that it takes 

416
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,520
to be an effective project 
professional. 

417
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,520
And, and many people I talk to 
and if I ask them, how did you 

418
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,360
get, how did you become a 
project professional? 

419
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,080
And they tell me things like, 
Oh, you know, I, I started as a 

420
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:11,800
structural engineer or I started
as a, an architect or, or, or 

421
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,000
something like that. 
And then they woke up one day 

422
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,680
and discovered they weren't 
doing that anymore. 

423
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,320
They were actually managing 
projects. 

424
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,240
People seem to fall into this 
profession leaders, you know, 

425
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,680
I've met people who are kind of,
you know, keep finance officers 

426
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,080
and then all of a sudden they 
found they were delivering 

427
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,280
digital transformation projects 
and things like this. 

428
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,160
So it seems to be one of these 
professions that people fall 

429
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,120
into rather than plan to go 
into. 

430
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,080
You know, I don't hear children 
in school saying when I grow up 

431
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,680
I want to be a project manager 
or project professional. 

432
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,000
I don't hear that is, is, is, 
you know, does the profession 

433
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,720
have enough of a public profile 
and how did it work for you? 

434
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,760
Did you, you know, you're 
obviously a project professional

435
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,640
now, Did you plan for that from 
the beginning or are you one of 

436
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,040
those people that fell into it 
as well? 

437
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,080
From my own perspective, I was 
brought up in a household that 

438
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,320
it was an engineering 
background. 

439
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,800
I lived in an area where where 
industrial area where where 

440
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,480
engineering was quite prevalent.
So, so I thought around what 

441
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,480
that I want to do in my career 
and I was encouraged to do what 

442
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,320
I felt brought the best out of 
me and what I enjoyed. 

443
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,480
So for me, I probably didn't 
label it project management then

444
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,480
as I probably would now, but I 
kind of quickly knew that I 

445
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,800
wanted to be involved in an end 
to end delivery of an output and

446
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,840
that I wanted to see more than 
just one part of it. 

447
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,800
And that's what project 
management gives you. 

448
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,400
But I don't think at the time, 
25-6 years ago when I started my

449
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,520
career, it was probably as 
obvious and as prominent as it 

450
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,320
is now. 
So I think people now are 

451
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,320
starting their career as project
managers. 

452
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,960
I think it's important that 
people understand what the 

453
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,360
project management community 
brings and I think through the 

454
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,800
APM I think there is 
opportunities for people to get 

455
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,600
close to that early on now. 
So we have graduates that join 

456
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,520
our schemes and they are keen to
do projects from the outset and 

457
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,240
they have an understanding of 
what project management is from 

458
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,320
the outset. 
So I think through working in 

459
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,800
schools, through working in 
universities, we are seeing 

460
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,040
graduates that come now with a 
better understanding of the 

461
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,520
profession, eager to get the 
qualifications, eager to learn 

462
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,760
and then eager to deploy. 
More so than perhaps. 

463
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,040
So I think it's evolved since 
I've been through my career. 

464
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,960
I think it's continued, it can 
continue to progress and I think

465
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,640
through the chartership and the 
recognition and respect that 

466
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,480
that brings, I think it really 
can make the profession stand 

467
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,320
stand strongly on its own. 
Yeah, you're quite, you're quite

468
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,520
right actually. 
As you were talking, I was 

469
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,600
thinking, you know, actually we 
do have a lot of student members

470
00:25:54,600 --> 00:26:00,400
at APM and I meet a lot of 
apprentices at events and so on 

471
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,000
who are exactly in the category 
that we're talking about here 

472
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,240
where they've come straight out 
of school or, or the even degree

473
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,360
apprenticeships, you know, where
people are, are, are kind of 

474
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,160
learning and getting these 
qualifications on the on the job

475
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,640
as it were as well. 
So yeah, maybe we've got reason 

476
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,800
to be optimistic actually about 
this. 

477
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,040
So yeah, that that's that is 
quite exciting. 

478
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,440
And I think we have and I think 
I can really get back, sorry, I 

479
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:29,120
don't by me just improved 
outputs that I have seen in my 

480
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,760
career who people who have 
become project professionals. 

481
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,400
So at my time with the Nuclear 
Decommissioning Authority, we 

482
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,000
really promoted the chartership.
We really promoted people 

483
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,080
getting qualified through EAPA 
and that correlated with 

484
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,520
improved performance. 
You know, we improved the 

485
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,360
project performance in the NDA 
group significantly in the time 

486
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:55,760
I was there and that went in 
parallel with people becoming 

487
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,240
more qualified, more able. 
And we, as I said, we increased 

488
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,680
the profession qualified 
professionals by 60% and we saw 

489
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,600
milestone attainment improved by
70%. 

490
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,600
So that's a fairly close 
correlation. 

491
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,000
It wasn't the only thing that we
did, but we knew and had 

492
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,280
confidence in our team and 
because of the training and 

493
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,960
experience that they gained, how
to equip them to deliver 

494
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,680
successful projects. 
Yeah. 

495
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,520
Well, that's the, you know, 
that's a great statistic there. 

496
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:31,880
So 60% investment in the in 
upskilling the capability in the

497
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,040
organisation, the people side 
and you saw 70% impact on the 

498
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,520
milestones. 
That's yeah. 

499
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,080
Powerful, powerful stuff. 
I. 

500
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,440
Can see. 
And Taylor and Townsend is a 

501
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,080
world leader in project 
delivery. 

502
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,240
We have hundreds of qualified 
professionals and so it's a real

503
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,760
requirement for us to get a sort
of established programme project

504
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,160
management role. 
So again, that proof is there 

505
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,280
for all to see. 
Yeah, makes sense. 

506
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,960
So final thing from me then, 
Gareth, is there are a lot of 

507
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,760
people who'll be listening to 
this podcast who might be early 

508
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,640
on in their career. 
And you have the benefit of 

509
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,920
being, you know, having lots of 
experience to this point. 

510
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,520
And I suppose you've got the 
benefits of hindsight as where I

511
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,840
was going with this. 
And if you were kind of either 

512
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,280
talking to your younger self or 
talking to some of these, you 

513
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,280
know, emerging project 
professionals who are right at 

514
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,240
the beginning of their career, 
just starting out, and you were 

515
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,160
going to give some advice for 
how they could be as successful 

516
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,240
as you've been, even better 
maybe what what advice would you

517
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,280
give? 
I think understand it and then 

518
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,280
deploy it. 
There's nothing quite like 

519
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,680
learning as you are delivering 
and I think I really want the 

520
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,880
project professionals of the 
future to have the opportunities

521
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,560
that I had and to really test 
themselves in delivering 

522
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,040
successful outputs. 
It's not about the theory, it's 

523
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,760
not about the desktop exercise, 
it's about delivering. 

524
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,400
And I think if the project 
professional of today goes about

525
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,840
their work in that manner, that 
says it's the outcome and the 

526
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,960
output that we're focused on and
the process and the procedures 

527
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,400
there to guide you. 
I think that's what's going to 

528
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,800
create a vibrant project 
profession for the future. 

529
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,640
So don't expect to learn it 
straight away. 

530
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,600
Don't expect to get it right 
first time, but learn from it 

531
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,960
and don't be fearful. 
You know there'll be people 

532
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,280
there to support you. 
Be curious, be curious, have 

533
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,600
ambition and really own your 
career because it can be really 

534
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,440
varied and really extensive in 
projects. 

535
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,800
You could be building a nuclear 
power station, you could be 

536
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,800
building the next hospital for 
the NHS, you could be building a

537
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,800
new railway link through Eastern
Europe. 

538
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,000
You could be building anything 
you wish around the world. 

539
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,800
You could creating a solution 
for the future so the 

540
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,160
opportunities are plentiful. 
Take it with both hands and 

541
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,040
enjoy it. 
Yeah, enjoy. 

542
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,520
That's definitely good advice. 
I love that it's all about 

543
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,720
learning and growth, and I think
it's been a theme through the 

544
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,280
conversation today. 
I always remember someone saying

545
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,200
to me, Adam, where growth stops,
decay begins. 

546
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,920
Maybe that's a a suitable quote 
to share in this nuclear focused

547
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,400
discussion that we've had. 
Gareth, thanks so much for 

548
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,800
joining us and thanks to 
everybody for listening and 

549
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,520
watching and or watching. 
We'll be back in a couple of 

550
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,000
weeks, but in the meantime, you 
can get in touch with us at 

551
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,240
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk
or if you're watching on Spotify

552
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,480
or YouTube, do leave us a 
comment directly under the 

553
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,400
video. 
So that's it for this episode 

554
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:58,360
and we'll see you next time. 
Music.