1 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:11,900 Hello and welcome to the APM podcast brought to you by the 2 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:15,900 childhood body for the project profession in 2022, a PM is 3 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:18,000 celebrating its 50th Anniversary. 4 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:20,800 So throughout the year the OPM podcasters meeting some of the 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,400 movers and shakers who have shaped the project professional 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,300 across the past. Few decades will be asking them 7 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:29,100 how the profession has evolved where the untapped potential 8 00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:31,600 might lie. And what the future might hold, 9 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:34,800 my name is Emma divita and I'm the editor of project apm's 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,600 quarterly Journal this episode Andrew Saunders business 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,400 journalist and regular. Contributor, to project sits 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,500 down with Mark wild ex-ceo of crossrail as one of the largest 13 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:47,200 Transportation programs, anywhere. 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,700 In the world crossrail has had a high-profile from the outset, 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,200 but the programs are construct. The Elizabeth line, a new high 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,900 frequency. Commuter Rail line through 17 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:58,900 London has often found itself in the headlines for the wrong 18 00:00:58,900 --> 00:01:02,200 reasons. Mark took over as CEO in 2018, 19 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,600 as a time of Highly publicized budget and deadline overruns 20 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:09,100 fast forward to may this year and Mark stepped down the CEO 21 00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:12,000 following the long-delayed but much celebrated opening of the 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,000 Elizabeth line having successfully turned around such 23 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,800 a complex and Fort program. In this podcast Mark shares his 24 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,700 insights into what went wrong in the early years of crossrail, 25 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:25,000 the changes who made upon becoming CEO and lessons for 26 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,400 future complex programs. A p.m. members will be able to 27 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,200 read an extended interview with Mark and the Autumn edition of 28 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,200 project Journal out in September. 29 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:38,900 And Thank you so much for talking to me today. 30 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:42,100 I'm sure you're very busy, man, and I appreciate it. 31 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:44,400 I'm looking forward to our conversation. 32 00:01:44,900 --> 00:01:47,200 So let's I mean, I supposed to kind of start with crossrail or 33 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,800 bit of crossrail, what's the first thing that you do? 34 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,100 What was the first thing that you did? 35 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:53,800 When you rode across own, you've got this new got to turn around 36 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,900 this tanker. Yeah, well, first me first, I've 37 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:00,000 got to acknowledge that, you know, I was I was the boss of 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,500 the tube. So I was running, London 39 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:05,300 Underground and I was on the board of Crossroads so it would 40 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:08,500 not be true to say that. You know, I came in on some kind 41 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:12,400 of white charger and sort of the doubt, I and I think the reason 42 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,200 I might have an interesting perspective is, you know, I'm 43 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,500 part of the problem as well. You know, we always sitting on 44 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:21,800 the board when this occurred. So, first and foremost, your day 45 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,300 one wasn't completely unknown thing to me. 46 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:28,400 But first thing I did was, I think, you know, is a lot of 47 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,100 people know, one of the bad things that happened in 48 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:34,700 crossrail, was it that had been demobilized, you know, we lost 49 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,000 we always should be a thousand people in the client 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,700 organization and where I took over it was like 600. 51 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:43,600 So we lost critical mass. So the very first thing I did 52 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,300 was I rapid re inflation of people. 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,100 I think when you lose critical mass and you've got gaps, the 54 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:54,600 first thing that I did was we got it, we got a new Senior 55 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,600 Team, you know, we're going to have got Collin, Brown has our 56 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,400 technical director. We started with Peter Henderson, 57 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,800 our shoes are kind of program director and we went to Bechtel 58 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,300 Jacobs and everybody. And I Just got my bag and ball 59 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:08,400 out and said, look, I need help. So the very first thing I did 60 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,500 was focus on the rien Flesh and of the team because we were, we 61 00:03:13,500 --> 00:03:15,800 were in a lot of trouble. You know, people were leaving 62 00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:19,500 and the Really key people left, you know, the program, controls 63 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:22,700 character, safety director, all of these things that happen. 64 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:25,800 So yeah and it's still I mean it still didn't you take me losing 65 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,100 critical mass you lose momentum as well that the chronology was 66 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:33,200 in the July of that year. I think July or August. 67 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,900 It was clear that we couldn't Continue. 68 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:38,900 And I didn't take over till December, so there's an 69 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:43,000 interregnum, which Simon Wright. Who is the program director 70 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,400 acting CEO at the time. Did a really excellent job. 71 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,400 Simon actually, but credit time again, as soon as the black hole 72 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,100 was developed revealed, I should have left immediately so that 73 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:57,400 lack of momentum was really the critical point. 74 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,400 It was a, you know, that moment there were eight or nine 75 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,200 thousand people on my project productivity was we measured 76 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:09,000 Immediately, it was like fifteen to twenty percent were spending 77 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,400 a hundred and forty million every four weeks on the purpose 78 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:17,000 of the project was stalled. But consuming vast resources, 79 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,500 you know, not to be honest, very, very, very difficult 80 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:23,500 situation and he will think that you bitten off more than you 81 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:24,800 could chew when you learned it in there. 82 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,700 No, no, because custom in the guts of this project, a 83 00:04:28,707 --> 00:04:30,700 fantastic. I knew all about it. 84 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:35,100 I had an inkling cells on the board, really about I think if I 85 00:04:35,108 --> 00:04:38,200 could could say, one thing about me, I'm the reason that we 86 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,400 brought the collapse occurred was there was me with a couple 87 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,700 of colleagues on the board. Said look, we can't continue. 88 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:49,600 So now I knew, I knew the DNA was good and also I was backed 89 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,600 by the commissioner, the mayor, the permanent secretary so and I 90 00:04:54,608 --> 00:04:57,500 also knew I was going to get on him eggs as my chair. 91 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,900 So if you have that sort of backing and you know, a bit 92 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:03,600 about it and you know the projects fundamentally sound. 93 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,400 Now I wasn't done that at all. Butter that all about. 94 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,000 Yeah, I'm I think, you know, they did one of the reasons that 95 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,400 I was members are good choice to do. 96 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,400 It was that I already knew about it. 97 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,000 I think if somebody landed cold into it while I don't really 98 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,000 know what they would have done. Yeah, that's interesting. 99 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,300 That isn't it because the that sort of the net that the natural 100 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:24,800 normal response, standard response in that sort of 101 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,900 processor at situation is to do precisely. 102 00:05:26,900 --> 00:05:29,800 That is to get someone who, you know, has been around the block 103 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,400 a bit but isn't involved in that particular organization and 104 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:35,100 parachute them in and get them too. 105 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,600 To do their thing. Yeah, I mean, I thought when I 106 00:05:37,608 --> 00:05:40,500 landed actually the first thought I had was, could I stop 107 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:43,300 the project could? I could we somehow demobilize 108 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:46,100 the project and restarted? And I thought, well, it's 109 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:49,900 impossible to stop a project until March 20 20 came along and 110 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,400 then actually, again, you could do it. 111 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,600 But of course, that was a pandemic crisis. 112 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,700 So, yeah, it was impossible to stop. 113 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,100 They had huge momentum. Nearly 10,000 people on the job. 114 00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:04,100 So I think if somebody knew it landed, it would interfere with. 115 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:07,000 The first thing I did was Reinstate the senior team 116 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:09,200 really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's 117 00:06:09,500 --> 00:06:10,600 coming. It's not like, I guess it's not 118 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,800 easy to hire people back into project locally, there is it, I 119 00:06:14,808 --> 00:06:17,000 don't know. Maybe people start to think you 120 00:06:17,008 --> 00:06:19,600 might be career limiting to get involved, something like that. 121 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:25,200 Well, two things, it's an iconic project. 122 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,500 So I think, you know, even though it was getting B lived in 123 00:06:28,500 --> 00:06:33,100 the press, all those who know in the world nor the, this is a 124 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:35,900 real proper job, you know, one of the top Jobs in the world. 125 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:39,400 The second thing was - are reflecting the team. 126 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,300 It was a bit simpler than that, really. 127 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,100 I simply went to see all of our supply chain Partners CEOs and 128 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:48,900 chairs and said, you're gonna, you're gonna help me. 129 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,500 And to a person, you know, whether it's Bechtel, WS P, PR 130 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:57,300 Consulting cost in the whole supply chain. 131 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,200 At the most senior level completely came on board. 132 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,400 And my, my, my offer to them, was complete transparency. 133 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,700 And Try my best. No games, not know, kind of 134 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,900 politics there started. The deal was to give me their 135 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:13,600 best people and they did so double the recipe. 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,500 Mark, when seen Mike Nesmith and asking for a guy called predict 137 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:21,400 massoud of who was inaudible system, integrator had been 138 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,200 degraded. The Victoria line was at that 139 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,100 moment. Working in Tel Aviv though and 140 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,900 within 24 hours, pretty basudev was the head of our system 141 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:34,100 integration. And I think that that's speed of 142 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:37,900 re inflation was Of the, the key thing really do, you knew where 143 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:40,400 to go and find you knew that you knew who to look for and where 144 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:41,700 to go and ask. Yeah. 145 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:43,100 We've made a few mistakes, you know. 146 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:47,000 We, if I hire 300 people, we might have got, you know, 20 or 147 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,800 30 people wrong obviously. But yeah. 148 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:54,800 And I guess the other thing about me was my background, my 149 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,900 background was predominantly and system integration. 150 00:07:56,900 --> 00:08:01,500 So, I kind of knew I knew these people and put the big message, 151 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:04,100 I think. Is that, when, when, when the 152 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:07,000 proverbial did hit the On everybody really came to the 153 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,300 party and nobody nobody. Nobody whether you're a 154 00:08:10,308 --> 00:08:14,600 politician or a board member or a stakeholder or its supply 155 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,400 chain leader. Nobody did not help me nobody. 156 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,400 No Berries. So I think good Esprit de corps 157 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,600 and I think everybody realized that it was a meant something 158 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,300 for the whole country as is evidence. 159 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:28,900 Now you know you look you look at how people think about the 160 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:33,000 project now which is like some kind of Stellar thing and I 161 00:08:33,008 --> 00:08:35,000 think we all knew that when it did land. 162 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,799 And an open, it would have the absolute wild factor and 163 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:40,500 re-establish our reputation for major programs are. 164 00:08:40,508 --> 00:08:44,100 Then there's a question isn't, I mean, this is the kind of debate 165 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:46,700 Kairos, rolls around. They're kind of project 166 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:48,500 management, Universe, more, or less constantly. 167 00:08:48,500 --> 00:08:51,700 I could, I think, is it inevitable that big projects are 168 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:54,900 always be late and over budget? You hear people say that but it 169 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:57,200 strikes me as being a bit of that sort of counsel of Despair 170 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:58,800 that really surely. They shouldn't be, something's 171 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,700 wrong. That's the case, two things, two 172 00:09:01,700 --> 00:09:03,600 perspectives, contemporary perspective. 173 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,700 If you look at the research, From Oxford, particularly you 174 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:08,900 will find that. Yes, the vast majority of major 175 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:10,300 programs around the world are late. 176 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:14,300 Another pigeon actually crossrail is 27 percent late and 177 00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:16,200 over budget. It's actually not that bad. 178 00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:22,100 You would say that that's a contemporary perspective. 179 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:24,900 So you're right. So yeah, in context, really 180 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:28,600 evidence shows, all these programs are letting over budget 181 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,800 or their underestimated. To start with one or two. 182 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:35,900 Here's my take them and the reason for Change and Why cross 183 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:39,000 from others? I think three big things are 184 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,300 happening in the world now that are really significant in major 185 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:45,700 programs first year. They getting bigger cross. 186 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:48,900 Real used to be the biggest in Europe and the fifth biggest in 187 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:51,300 the world. Now crossrail wouldn't get in 188 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:54,900 the top 10 globally and it wouldn't get in the top three in 189 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:56,700 Europe. So projects, getting bigger, 190 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,500 there is a massive rise of digitization massively. 191 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,900 And of course, there's a huge drive to NetZero. 192 00:10:02,900 --> 00:10:08,400 Now, to me, those Now, mix on top of a situation that you've 193 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,700 pointed out that they're all laid anywhere, really calls to 194 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:14,500 change about how you manage these programs because I think 195 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,700 they are so big and complex. Now, a new approach that the 196 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:20,900 kind of the big learning, which we can get onto on the cross for 197 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:23,400 others, maybe he's in your approach, but to your point, 198 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,400 yeah, every major program in the world seems to have problems. 199 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,700 There's something going wrong. Either in the delivery or in the 200 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:32,600 sea say, I mean I suspect that it's know. 201 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,800 A lot of it has to do with how much, you know how you asked. 202 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Hey, you Estimate these things to start with and it's been 203 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,300 pretty, the more surely, the more complex of project is the 204 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:42,400 more difficult. It is to say before you started 205 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,900 with any kind of a hope of accuracy how much it's going to 206 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:49,000 cost to do. Ya mean, Kiki fundamental lesson 207 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:55,300 in Cross Rome was setting a singular end date and quite a 208 00:10:55,900 --> 00:11:01,700 visible Public Funding envelope. They said December 18 and 209 00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:05,800 fourteen point eight billion years in advance and made Very, 210 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,800 very public. So when Terri Morgan who I love 211 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:10,700 and there's the so go, wonderful man. 212 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:15,700 Terry when Terry said on time on budget, he was on a singular end 213 00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:18,700 date and inform the envelope. And and I think the big big 214 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:23,100 learning, the big learning Ida crossrail is do not set singular 215 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:26,100 end dates, and mmm love, think about more windows of 216 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:28,600 uncertainty. And I've been very lucky. 217 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:32,100 Here's the good news, I would have been very lucky to look at 218 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:35,000 almost every major program in the world actually apart from 219 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:37,100 Whistling in China or Russia. I'm looked at that. 220 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:40,300 But now, nobody is doing across rural. 221 00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:44,100 Everybody is in Windows of time and windows of money. 222 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:47,300 And if look at Mark thirst and on edge, just to done a very, 223 00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:49,000 very good job. You know, he's no longer has a 224 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,700 singular end date of whatever it is 20:27 or whatever. 225 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,600 He talks about Windows, I think they have a window of funding as 226 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,300 well in which I don't fully understand. 227 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,200 So I'll to your point, I think the main catalytic problem is 228 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,600 underestimation, And not recognizing the downside risk, 229 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,600 but I think austrians changed all that. 230 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,200 I think. Now you look at every major 231 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,400 program, nobody is heroically driving for. 232 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:16,800 I'm going to, I'm going to Australia for them seeing all 233 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,300 the major cities in Australia, over the next 22 weeks, and none 234 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,500 of them. Then we're going to open it on 235 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:24,500 the night of December, 20, 2008, you know? 236 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:27,600 Yes, it seems like a good idea when you're a decade away. 237 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,300 That isn't it? But I can see it will soon 238 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:31,700 become a kind of millstone around your neck. 239 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,200 Yeah, but they don't know the art of major program management. 240 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,200 Is how you Maintain that tension. 241 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,800 If you've got a few more like a window of time or money and 242 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,700 early and late or low and high, and there's a window of 243 00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:48,200 uncertainty, the art of project management is to drive the 244 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,300 team's to the front edge and progressively narrower the 245 00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:55,000 windows and for me that's the thing. 246 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,400 The crossrail really unfortunately didn't didn't God 247 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,400 we got totally wrong. I mean I recognize a bit of a 248 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:05,000 kind of a Bailey very basic analogy from my own world. 249 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,500 Their own deadlines, you know, some writers, when you're 250 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:11,100 commissioning them, you know, they're late and they're always 251 00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:12,100 late. So you give them a fake 252 00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:15,700 deadline, but after you're done, argued work, and in for a bit, 253 00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:18,100 they start to Twig that you're giving them fake deadlines and 254 00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:19,800 so the fake deadlines lips lip as well. 255 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,000 So how do you avoid that happening in that world? 256 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,200 Where, you know, you're telling the team basically that this is 257 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,500 the tape and you're telling the world that this is the date. 258 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:30,400 So if you have this idea that you are progressively narrowing 259 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,300 and suddenly the lead, the dead is your commitment to your 260 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:36,300 stakeholders in the early. Dead is where you want the team 261 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:40,300 to drive two by two perspectives in the public realm. 262 00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:44,800 Transparency is all 0 and if you don't know, you don't know. 263 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,100 And I think I think crossrail lost its reputation and your 264 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,400 reputation is what do you say times? 265 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,800 What you do? Yeah, then on crossrail, on 266 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,300 Time, on budget, they lost their reputation. 267 00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:01,900 So, firstly on the later date, the that's got to be trusted, 268 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:04,800 you know, you can't have a false deadline to your to your point, 269 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,900 you know? So transparency Ultra 270 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:11,800 transparency works, even if it's uncomfortable for leaders, on 271 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,200 the early date on driving the, the team to the early date. 272 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,300 I'll give you an interesting concept of the really helped us. 273 00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:22,900 Crossrail was thought to be a very collaborative place. 274 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:27,000 You know, everyone, 37 little Parts building, a halt, all very 275 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,400 collaborative actually values Awards. 276 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,800 We went a step further and cross. 277 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,400 For all, we went from collaboration to morning the 278 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:34,900 hall. Now, what's the difference? 279 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,700 Curren and owning the whole means that everybody's invested 280 00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:42,200 in everybody's success or failure. 281 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,900 So for example, I used to think of these things as a battle on 282 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:49,100 risk, you know, from other delivery into operation. 283 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:51,700 I now realize that was completely flawed. 284 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:54,200 This is much more like an obstacle course. 285 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,000 Tough Mudder, where if somebody gets stuck like an operator or 286 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:03,700 Safety Authority, or a fire engineer, or the regulator, if 287 00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,200 somebody gets stuck in the mud, There's no point everybody else 288 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,100 foraging on because we got to go back and get Bill on Mary and 289 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:14,000 we've all got to cross the line haul together. 290 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,100 So for me this was a profound shift in Cross Royal to talk 291 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:25,100 Ultra transparency publicly on the backend downside debt and 292 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:31,300 drive the internal team to own the whole by that the operator 293 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:34,100 and the delivery teams had to agree on. 294 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,000 What the requirements were. And they the problem of the 295 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,600 Baton person and Allergy is the operator just can't get all of 296 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,600 it and you know there's a mismatch in what they want. 297 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,800 They want bells and whistles, all this safety, press on the 298 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,000 fire brigade, want something else. 299 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,900 So I think this, these are quite interesting concepts of how do 300 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:55,300 you maintain the tension in that windows? 301 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:57,600 That were talking? And I think they're both have to 302 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,600 happen transparency for the public, owning the whole for the 303 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,400 internal. And I think there's something 304 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,900 quite interesting in this and Our contractual forms. 305 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:09,700 No, the NEC. And I'll governance that they 306 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,000 don't really support this. I think that's another part of 307 00:16:12,008 --> 00:16:15,100 the cultural Story. How did nobody detected like 308 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:17,900 kind of historical understanding those projects, got bigger and 309 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,400 more complicated. You ended up with these kind of 310 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,800 lots of multiple contracts because they were sort of 311 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,200 considered to be who, you know, sort of bite-sized manageable 312 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,400 chunks rather than kind of wrapping the whole thing in some 313 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,600 huge and incontrolable thing. So that, you know, the that sort 314 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:34,900 of fragmentation was done on purpose. 315 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,500 Purpose with the intent of making the whole thing more 316 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:39,300 manageable. But actually, but maybe in some 317 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:43,000 respects, you know, achieve the opposite, who are only a few 318 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,700 that decision was very cogent, because after the global 319 00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:50,800 financial crisis 2010 2011, the market was fragmented. 320 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,500 Everybody needs everybody needed a every mouth needed to be fed 321 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,700 if you think about 2012, We were part of the Olympics after the 322 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:00,800 Olympics. There is nothing. 323 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,400 So, every month had to be fed. So breaking into 37 jigsaw 324 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,900 pieces, not a bad idea, right? It might take about what went 325 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:11,500 wrong. If you drew like a 2x2 Grid in 326 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:17,300 your head and on the bottom axis was complexity low to high and 327 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:21,599 on this axis was the need for the client to coordinate from 328 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,099 low to high. I think the problem uncrossed 329 00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:28,300 real was 37 contracts. Inevitably created huge 330 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,000 complexity. So on my, in my 2x2 grid, it was 331 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,100 on the right hand side yet. Highly complex for me. 332 00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:38,300 Crossville should have been in the top right-hand corner. 333 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,300 Hi the coordinating. So, if you've got a lot of 334 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:45,600 complexity crossrail should have been the conductor of the 335 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:52,100 orchestra in quite deep, in intrusion, into the sequence of 336 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:55,400 how things were done. Corporal didn't do that across. 337 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,300 Rural was Low coordination. So it was kind of in the my 2x2 338 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:04,100 grid crossrail was in the bottom right-hand corner, highly 339 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:08,300 complex, but generally law coordination because they 340 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:10,800 thought the supply chain would work it out for themselves. 341 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:16,300 It didn't it didn't. So the message for me is to 342 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:20,100 point first of all, don't don't try to complexify it. 343 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:22,900 You know, try to stay low complexity. 344 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,000 But if you do have to go to High complexity from various Ins 345 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:29,800 become, highly coordinating. And that's kind of one of the 346 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,500 big lessons, the more complex, it becomes the more than need 347 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:38,400 for alignment and coordination from the center and its back to 348 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,500 kind of, you know, theories of entropy. 349 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:42,800 And I've said that you've got like the project getting bigger 350 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:47,300 drive to 90 and huge digitization, those Mega Trends 351 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:51,000 are producing entropic on end, Tropic things in programs. 352 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,100 I they will tend to chaos without some control and I think 353 00:18:56,100 --> 00:19:01,100 CrossFit I think this is well documented really did not call 354 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:03,100 it a lie. I give you the most fantastic, 355 00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:07,800 practical example of this 37 contracts and at least half of 356 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,200 them had fire engineering serious, fire, engineering 357 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,200 requirements. And, you know, you know, serious 358 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,900 headers and now again, we had one company a tier 2, called 359 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:20,000 Protec excellent company. Brilliant. 360 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,700 The only had 250 engineers and they pretty much had the market 361 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:26,500 in people certified approve, London Fire. 362 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,700 Brigade, fire. All those 50 Engineers were of 363 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:34,400 Protech were working for 20 of the tier ones, but the client 364 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,000 couldn't see it. So they were being pulled from 365 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,400 Pillar To Post. Yeah. 366 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,500 So one of the things that we did was we started to coordinate 367 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:45,700 project and people either scarce resources, for a centrally 368 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:50,300 coordinated, IE Paddington first, then Whitechapel instead 369 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:54,200 of them all not fighting for trying to collaborate together. 370 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,500 So that's a now to do that, of course. 371 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,100 You interfere in the commercial relationship with the tier 1s 372 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,900 and the risk transfer. And I think this is a, this is 373 00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:08,500 like a really fundamental Point. As complexity went up showed, so 374 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:12,600 did the need for the client to coordinate and one of the big 375 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,400 reasons for the collapse of cross Rome and the emergence of 376 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:21,800 a huge black hole was the Unseen effort that the supply chain was 377 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,000 having to make that the client couldn't see. 378 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,500 I mean yeah I'll give you a mind-blowing. 379 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,600 I'm stat, he's a mind-blowing start run, all of these 380 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,500 contracts had we called it outstanding Works list element, 381 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:37,700 outstanding works, though. It was a punch list every 382 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:40,800 contract, I'd like a punch list, you know, there were things for 383 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,800 defects. You get back to you later. 384 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,000 I'm your material non-compliances things that 385 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,400 weren't quite right dense indoors. 386 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,800 Cracked window opens. You know thought also that man's 387 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,600 natural snagging list. In my first six months of 388 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,800 crossrail, the new technical, director added up how many they 389 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:04,300 were in the hole. There were 75,000 things missing 390 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,300 in Cross from and when you looked at them, a lot of defects 391 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:11,300 are normal things, but a lot of them thousands, tens of 392 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:15,800 thousands were sitting on element outstanding Works lists 393 00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:18,800 because they were depending on somebody else or maybe three 394 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,400 other people. So the real question is hold on, 395 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,600 Mark you On the board. Why didn't you just have a 396 00:21:24,608 --> 00:21:27,200 simple measure of outstanding Works list where we didn't? 397 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,100 I mean that's a fundamental mistake. 398 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:33,000 We weren't measuring. We thought we were in 97 percent 399 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,500 complete. We were 60% Complete because 400 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:40,100 there were 75,000 things off the books that you didn't deserve 401 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:42,300 it. Individual contracts new, you 402 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,100 know? Yes, you're Whitechapel. 403 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:49,700 You knew you had 7,000 and But nobody out of the hole back to 404 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,000 this concept of owning the whole. 405 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,300 And, you know, the minute we realized there were 75,000 406 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:58,400 things to do then that became very serious. 407 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,100 Yes, absolutely. But systemic risk, I mean that's 408 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:02,900 like the financial crash. It seems like all those 409 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,900 individual Banks, not realizing how much on the hook or the 410 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,400 other bank don't want. I'll give you another one about 411 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,200 crossrail in terms of risk. You might say this but Mark you 412 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,200 are the best in the world and you're on the board. 413 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,500 Mark, what were you doing? What are you idiots doing? 414 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:20,400 Well, where was your risk for us as well? 415 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,800 Actually, interestingly, these risks were all in our risk 416 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,000 registers and we had the most pristine risk process. 417 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,200 We had four late for layers of assurance, the best in the 418 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,100 world. We spend millions and tens of 419 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:36,600 Millions on Assurance, we had Checkers and, you know, 420 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,800 verifiers. So what went wrong? 421 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,200 Well to me, cross for a lived in the house of It was like 422 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:45,900 traveling on the desert and you can see the mountain right, the 423 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,900 blue mountain range your head. Then you knew that mountain 424 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:52,100 range was going to be difficult to climb but on your walk. 425 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,300 In the desert you would write yourselves ever, Fantastical 426 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:59,600 risk, mitigation. So in the house of risk cross, 427 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,200 real would recognize outstanding Works list, but we write a 428 00:23:03,208 --> 00:23:07,000 mitigation that was never actually happened. 429 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,900 It was something like we were all we have a supply chain 430 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:11,300 meeting where we'll ask them about. 431 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,300 Out how they're doing, will standardize something over here. 432 00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:16,700 They were living in the house of risk putting their effort into 433 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:19,400 thinking. If that occurred, what would we 434 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,800 do? They should have really lived in 435 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,900 the house of Intervention, which was intervening in what they 436 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:28,000 would intuitively. Know was a problem. 437 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:34,300 So obviously early in 2015 16 somebody should have started to 438 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:38,900 measure the agglomerating accumulating group of 439 00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:41,300 outstanding works but they didn't, they kept it in there. 440 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:48,000 Registers, so this idea of how do you intervene rather than 441 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,200 just write? A risk is one of them, big, big 442 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,100 lessons and I'm going to Australia. 443 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:56,600 And this is one of the key themes because they're the same 444 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,300 as crossrail. I've got every Bell and whistle 445 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,200 on early warning of assurance. But cross for the ended up 446 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:08,000 within a four billion, pound black hole all because it was 447 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,300 masked by fantastic or mitigation. 448 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,100 Ins. They have the right. 449 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:15,500 They have the right color project tools in place to they 450 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:16,700 have the right, you know, where they went. 451 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:18,700 When they were obviously weren't measuring the right things or 452 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:22,000 not in not in aggregate anyway. Well, I think they did. 453 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,500 They had they had the state-of-the-art know, they had 454 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:27,700 bad, the other state-of-the-art, let me the world's moved on a 455 00:24:27,708 --> 00:24:29,100 bit. Now, if you go to like Oxford 456 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:33,200 and there's a lot of AI technology and now but you know 457 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,500 they have the whole thing that they were the first people to 458 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:40,000 put them in, they had business in your power, user type of 459 00:24:40,008 --> 00:24:43,500 stuff on their data. No, I think what happened is the 460 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,100 leadership team created an environment on the board that I 461 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:52,000 was part of where failure was not an option. 462 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:56,200 Another fundamental lesson that I learned through this to 463 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,400 succeed means, you have to fill. Failure is an intrinsic part of 464 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,200 success. So in an environment where you 465 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:10,000 couldn't fail People started to not measure the important stuff, 466 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,000 is it? Hargreaves law or after? 467 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,700 Dig it out for the law. When a measure becomes a Target, 468 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,300 it no longer becomes useful. So across rural, the measure 469 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,500 Terry Morgan would use is a percentage completion. 470 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,500 There was a value is valid, it was in place since 2012 and it 471 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:31,300 was basically measuring cubes of concrete and wire terminations. 472 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:35,000 It was the physical state of completion and it became the 473 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,400 measure and The in the last board meeting before it all 474 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,000 collapsed crossrail was 97.1%. Complete it wasn't. 475 00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:45,900 It was 60%. So that is the classic thing 476 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:48,100 where everybody's got the wrong measure. 477 00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:51,200 The became a Target. Yeah, and that was partly 478 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,600 because they were measuring the wrong things and perhaps because 479 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,300 they underestimated the scale of the kind of integration side of 480 00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:04,300 it to that that I mean, the guys with the guys are in there goes, 481 00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:05,600 our civil engineers and they are guess. 482 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,700 So they've thought that digging the tunnels is going to be the 483 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:12,000 hard bit, the real, another Insight I'd give you would be 484 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:16,400 the the guts of the machine where okay it was more. 485 00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:19,000 It wouldn't be fair to say this is all a bunch of civil 486 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,800 engineers, trying to wise to vote more likely that at the 487 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,000 very, very top including the board that I was part of we were 488 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,600 not curious enough, we just weren't curious enough and we 489 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,500 might have maybe had a bit of a heroic style. 490 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,100 I think the modern the modern project leader We'll manage 491 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,400 Windows about like we said for the mud, the modern project 492 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,700 leader will be comfortable with uncertainty and gaps and will be 493 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,800 curious and somebody could have asked the question, couldn't 494 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,600 they look? Well um how are we going to 495 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,700 integrate as many? I'll give you a great, a great 496 00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:55,400 example of this in our safety case. 497 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,100 There are two hundred thousand documents in our city. 498 00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:01,500 Guest 200,000 here, you can imagine what they are and if 499 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:04,900 they build up like a pyramid and the end in one final City case 500 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,400 like a pyramid Paul. Classic system engineering 501 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,600 career really, very, very good. Unfortunately, if the does you 502 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,400 got to the top of the mountain, nobody's ever, thought about how 503 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,700 you would actually integrate the real way in testing it all of 504 00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:24,300 the effort has gone into the the structure of the poem in this 505 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:26,700 virtual pyramid rather than thinking. 506 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,100 Well how are we gonna prove that these things aren't right? 507 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:34,400 You know and there's many many examples I just like we thought 508 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,500 that the software The trend management software might need 509 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,400 45. Jobs, you know, upgrades between 510 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,300 Siemens and Bombardier, there might be four or five hops, it's 511 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:49,800 been 70 or 80. We've climbed, we've climbed the 512 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,000 software Mountain, 10 meters at a time. 513 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,900 Tiny incremental steps, keeping everybody in harmony. 514 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,300 It was back back to this idea of in high complexity, the client 515 00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:03,700 needs to be highly coordinating. I mean, that there's something 516 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:06,500 fundamental about, you know, the more complex, these systems are 517 00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,800 more complex only and they, you know, complex systems go wrong 518 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,900 and complex ways I guess. And so they need a lot more 519 00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:13,900 testing. We need to verify check. 520 00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:18,400 If you buy the concept of the fact that we should try and 521 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,500 minimize complexity, let's just hold that, right? 522 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,100 It's a good idea to minimize complexity, simplify on 523 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:29,100 crossrail, since Adam was allowed having three different 524 00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:31,500 signaling systems, was always going to be complex. 525 00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:33,500 It's the most complex in the world. 526 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:37,300 There's no way around it. It's it was always going to be 527 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:41,300 off the scale. So for me, that meant Aunt. 528 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:45,700 Everything else had to become simpler to leave you with the 529 00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:49,900 core of what was always going to be an epic integration Challenge 530 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,100 on cost roll. Unfortunately, he's another key 531 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:59,000 lesson. The client design in 2014, 15 532 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,600 was running late. The client was doing the basic 533 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,700 design and then the individual contractors were going to do the 534 00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:06,300 detailed design. This is like mechanical 535 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:08,400 electrical equipment. The fire alarm, do you know all 536 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,600 the details that and the client does I was running late, but 537 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,300 unfortunately, instead of pausing the program around 2014, 538 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:21,300 15 to take a breath finish, the client design to allow the 539 00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:24,700 supply chain to modularize their design, make it simple, you 540 00:29:24,708 --> 00:29:28,500 know, build it in a factory. Bring it to side and plug it in. 541 00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:31,300 They didn't they? They commence the stage of 542 00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:35,600 detailed design before the client ID really finish theirs. 543 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,900 And that was because they knew they were trying to get to this 544 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,400 endless really tough ended. So as early as 2014, Teen. 545 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,600 There was massive stress and program and back to complexity 546 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,200 that that was, that was a big mistake because the minute 547 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,700 everything started to get complex, it even started to come 548 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,200 back into the signaling system because it's on India, it's a 549 00:29:56,208 --> 00:29:59,500 single integrated system. So what should happen is in 550 00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:02,100 2014, every should have recognized that the signaling 551 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,300 was going to be really hard. We must modularize everything 552 00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:08,700 else which would have meant, probably a nine months, a bridge 553 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,200 in 2014 15. It would have taken a brave 554 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,900 person though in 2014 15 to say that they couldn't recover it. 555 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,400 Yes, yes, interesting. Guys in it. 556 00:30:19,408 --> 00:30:22,700 So it's a bit of a lesson for projects is to identify the 557 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:27,000 places that you cannot be. There are irredeemably, complex 558 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:29,800 and identify those. And then try and simplify 559 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,600 everything else around them as much as you can. 560 00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:34,700 That's performed. I mean, you said that, I think 561 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,500 might be one of the most important lessons in the whole 562 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:40,700 of nature programs in the world. Which of course, the audience. 563 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,400 Street learned for years, you know this is like a thing that 564 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,300 the oil industry and the IT industry have been doing for 565 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:52,500 years where they modularize what they can and they they they know 566 00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:55,800 some things are going to be like a moon landing, you know? 567 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,400 But we know crossrail. We've ended up with Incredible 568 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,400 complexity in things like the, The Lighting systems of the, the 569 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,500 station's, you know, really complex stuff when it's just 570 00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:11,200 written a bit lower. Yes, interesting things but 571 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,700 interesting those told him about no come come to the time it took 572 00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:18,400 a bit about you and your kind of background and your your career. 573 00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:21,500 You sound like you sound like you're from County Durham. 574 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:30,100 Oh, very good. Very, very on Adam Cole - Sun 575 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:33,900 literally and my dad worked down the mines pit Village called Ash 576 00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:38,000 winning in Durham. So I grew up in a you know, 577 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,000 classic Working class family. My dad was a miner, their minds 578 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,700 were in the great, you know, but this is the kind of guy was born 579 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:49,900 in 65. So my dad went all through the 580 00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:53,300 tumultuous times in the mines, right up to the, the end of it 581 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:57,800 all and during, which is kind of like 70s and, you know, as you 582 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,500 know, in the mines and engineers and important things for my dad, 583 00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:02,000 always wanted me to be an engineer. 584 00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:05,500 So, I became an engineer went to Newcastle Polly, didn't really 585 00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:07,600 do very well. In my, a levels, went to the 586 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,500 polyfill electrical engineer. Was probably a bit of a late 587 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,800 starter academically did quite well. 588 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,300 The poly became joined the electricity industry. 589 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:21,900 So I spent the first kind of ten years of my career kind of 85 to 590 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:25,300 87 to 97 in the utility industry. 591 00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:29,600 Engineering projects. I mean Margaret Thatcher is not 592 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,500 quite my politics but you did do one thing for me but she 593 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:36,500 privatize the electricity industry and Berkshire Hathaway. 594 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:41,500 Warren Buffett's company bought But leap not electric which 595 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,900 opened up the possibility of international travel and getting 596 00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:46,800 away from the regulated wires business. 597 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,900 So I went in the non reg business ended up in Railways. 598 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,300 Recently read put the power supply in for the southern 599 00:32:56,300 --> 00:32:58,200 region. Working for Andy Mitchell. 600 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,800 Went to Westinghouse signals ended up running Westinghouse 601 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,400 signals, which was part of inventors, which is a bigger 602 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,600 signaling company. The world seems bored and vents. 603 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:15,200 So I left re signal the Jubilee line, then I went to Australia 604 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,300 and I run all of the public transportation in Melbourne. 605 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,800 Big state of Victoria Australia. Well, kind of it was kind of a 606 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,700 bit my Wilderness years really. I'd left invents this because 607 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:29,700 Siemens came in, I done said, work for Talus on the Jubilee 608 00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:33,100 line and I guess I was at the time in my career that I 609 00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:37,000 realized that, I wanted to be a more general leader and I didn't 610 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,600 have much operational experience. 611 00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:42,500 Audience, you know, I so I went The Treasure of Oz was just, you 612 00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:45,900 know, new jurisdiction and it was a great place to live and 613 00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:48,600 you got got my hands on the whole of the state transport 614 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,200 Network. You know, the trams, the trains, 615 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,800 the buses, the furries that was just fantastic. 616 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,300 So for five years then I was running all of their public 617 00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,100 transportation working for the government time in the Private 618 00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:02,200 Industry and timing public sectors important. 619 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,200 You know, because you just don't have preconceptions about what 620 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,800 the private sectors like other public sectors. 621 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,600 Like, but you really want to do both nothing. 622 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,000 So I went to the government of Australia, then opportunity came 623 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,500 up to run the tube, you know if you're a railway person running 624 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:20,000 London Underground so Mike Brown, invited me back to run 625 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,300 London Underground, which I thought was like the best job in 626 00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:27,699 the world, you know, running the tube and then I was quite happy 627 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,800 until in 2017. I was on the board of cross 628 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,199 Royal and pretty much from Led 17. 629 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,600 It was obvious to me that there was real problems in this. 630 00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:41,600 Program. And again, Lessons Learned we 631 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,900 probably should have acted six months earlier than we did. 632 00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:48,900 But ultimately, you know, I was quite sad to leave the tube 633 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,300 really but but, you know, the the prospect of delivering 634 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:56,699 Elizabeth on and now obviously, that's a backfield, my job, the 635 00:34:56,699 --> 00:34:59,100 other great guy called Andy Lord, I was always going to 636 00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,700 leave when we open the Elizabeth mine. 637 00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:03,100 I think we've had a good three and a half years doing that. 638 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,500 And now for me, I'm interesting heading back to the utility 639 00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,600 sector where next well I'm gonna become the sea. 640 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,000 You of sgn who are one of Britain's for Gas Distribution 641 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,400 Company that's selling guest Network Star Wars, isn't it? 642 00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:18,800 Yeah, well I'm Scotland. The SEC is is actually Scotia. 643 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,700 So it says she's got all the Scotland and Southern England 644 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:24,300 and the reason for that is one way of Learners, you going back 645 00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:27,500 to utilities Mark? Well, it's a good business, big 646 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:30,800 scale, business operationally. But the attraction for me is 647 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,000 energy conversion Drive. Nancy were the hydrogen question 648 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,300 is so for me, What I've liked most of my career was solving 649 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:43,000 really complicated puzzles. You know, so I think getting 650 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,100 back into energy is just quite cool. 651 00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:48,200 So I'm really looking forward to if I'm still going to keep my 652 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:52,200 hands fingers in major programs. And I've learned so much out of 653 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,400 crossrail, I really think the case is there for change in how 654 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,500 we manage major programs. Really think it's there. 655 00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:01,100 So will you I mean, it's like, well, that be, you know, part of 656 00:36:01,107 --> 00:36:04,200 what you do, do you feel that the sort of driver 657 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,600 responsibility to try and kind of pass on the message? 658 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,300 It's because I think Another thing I do talk quite a lot of 659 00:36:09,308 --> 00:36:12,000 people about lessons. They learned from projects and 660 00:36:12,008 --> 00:36:14,800 they always seem to be quite a lot of them are quite profound. 661 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,800 Well, I think about me as a person engineer project manager 662 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,700 and what I'm really here for me. I've enjoyed doing these jobs 663 00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:24,200 and they've been growing all enjoyed being the CEO of sgn. 664 00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:26,700 But really what I think I'm here for is exactly that. 665 00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:30,600 I don't think I'm here for. How did a working-class kid from 666 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,100 a privilege in Durham get to where I am? 667 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,000 There's a bit of talent there but there's a hell of a lot of 668 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,700 look. I think my purpose is to make 669 00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:43,400 sure we are representation in engineering of everybody and 670 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,300 fundamentally where we started this conversation. 671 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,600 I think the world of major programs is getting 672 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,000 exponentially more complex, which brings a new leadership 673 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,400 style. So yeah, the thing I'd really 674 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:59,700 like to focus on outside of kind of my work is, how do we create 675 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:02,600 a new way of leading major programs and engineering. 676 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,700 What kind of leader? What sort of person do you? 677 00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:08,700 What kind of qualities do you need to be a leader in that kind 678 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:11,700 of increasingly complex, environment person could work 679 00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,100 from Andrew McNaughton that I've been contributing to your, for 680 00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:19,500 the i.c.e. on systems thinking and because they know, first of 681 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:21,400 all, what it isn't? It isn't the heroic leadership 682 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,300 style of one person at the top knowing everything. 683 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:24,900 That's not, not the right and wrong. 684 00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:28,500 So the modern leader will be curious. 685 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,800 Will understand uncertainty will understand that there are some 686 00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:36,400 Things that are unknowable but we'll work hard to minimize 687 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,600 that. The leader will be. 688 00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:43,200 Somebody who is an environment is created, where there is no 689 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,600 fear the environment where truth to power where my big learning 690 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,400 across rural. One of them is even the most 691 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,800 epic problems we got. As soon as it became 692 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,800 transparent, the team, we had the convening power and the Epic 693 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,000 horse power of the team could solve it. 694 00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:03,200 The problem was surfacing the You. 695 00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:06,700 So leave us to the future will be incomplete and somewhere. 696 00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,800 As they will understand that there are gaps and they will 697 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,900 create environments where those gaps are spotted and people were 698 00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:17,400 collegiately owning the whole. So this kind of leadership style 699 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:20,000 is it's kind of a bit different, really? 700 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,200 It's more people who can convene and align people to 701 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,600 breakthroughs, rather than a singular person. 702 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,900 Heroically leading the charge, I'm being a bit kind of 703 00:38:31,908 --> 00:38:34,700 stereotypical. So listening is important on. 704 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:37,900 I think, you know, you talk about the archetypal, modern Lee 705 00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:41,400 modern project leader, they'll be good, active listeners, and 706 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,000 they will be able to web sent their ego from The Challenge. 707 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,500 There's, this is quite profound to me the days of egocentric 708 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:53,000 leadership Grover. And I don't mean, I don't mean 709 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,500 people were bullies and aggressive. 710 00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:58,100 I just mean the process of absenting yourself from a 711 00:38:58,107 --> 00:39:00,700 problem and become inconsiderate. 712 00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:03,800 And thinking of everybody sings and ultimately The boss is there 713 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,000 to make a decision? Ultimately, I was the CEO how to 714 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,300 make the decision but I'd rather an informed decision that came 715 00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,400 from a sense of consensus and everybody looked at a 360. 716 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,100 The trick is, how do you have how in that in type of 717 00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:19,000 environment? How do you stop procrastination? 718 00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:22,800 Which goes back to living in the house of intervention rather 719 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,100 than House of risk. Absolutely. 720 00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:27,800 Yes, yes, absolutely. In there are more dismal 721 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,000 auditions have more decisions to be taken more quickly. 722 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,300 The more complex Things become But this is talk about how, you 723 00:39:36,308 --> 00:39:39,600 know, the pandemic might have changed well kind of combination 724 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,500 of pandemic in climate change. I suppose it's changing people's 725 00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:44,400 Mobility patterns. Maybe people will be moving 726 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,400 around less and they'll be more digitally connected rather than 727 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,200 kind of physically connected to think that. 728 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,600 What does that does that make a difference too? 729 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,500 Well to project La Crosse world that have already been done? 730 00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:57,300 And to think like a chess to the hostel in the part 1? 731 00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:00,100 Well, no doubt, no doubt there's been a disruption as no, no 732 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:02,700 doubt, I think a positive disruption or people. 733 00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:06,200 Going to be help healthier and happier by having a better 734 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,400 work-life balance. But but for me, I still believe 735 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,400 in must transportation. And the agglomerating affecting 736 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,600 crossrail will produce 42 billion pounds of economic 737 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,600 benefit. You look at wallet, she took a 738 00:40:17,607 --> 00:40:19,700 bullet or in your work, what's happening? 739 00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:23,600 Well it's not for me, they'll undoubtedly be a delay. 740 00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:26,200 You know it'll there's a slug Something's Happened, you know, 741 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,100 in the next two to three years, but we've gotta cross role for a 742 00:40:29,107 --> 00:40:32,700 design life of 120 years but it'll be here in 250. 743 00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:34,900 Yes. I mean, you know, been in 200 744 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:39,500 years time, I mean, who knows what I did, but I do know that 745 00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:41,200 the cross rail tunnels will exist. 746 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,900 What about the kind of leveling up? 747 00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:45,700 Question wouldn't believe been better spent kind of in small 748 00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:49,000 doses, all around the country instead of one big dollop in 749 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,800 that I'm young. So a majority you know I know I 750 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,900 know buddy. Nobody cares more about where I 751 00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:01,900 come from the me, you know, and I'm very proud but I'm also 752 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,600 understand this. And the only reason crossed real 753 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,500 can get built is the densification of activity. 754 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,900 And that's why Crossroad produces 42 billion pounds of 755 00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:17,300 real economic benefit. Also London, London creates 25% 756 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,300 of the UK's GDP but more fundamentally in Cross Rome, 757 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,100 75,000 people worked on it and we think at least 40 or 50,000 758 00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:29,500 and never came to London. And, you know, the signs are 759 00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:32,400 manufactured in the Isle of Wight, the doors came from 760 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,400 Cheshire. Sure, the drones were men and 761 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:40,200 Darby 60 or 70% of it came from small to medium Enterprises 762 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,300 outside of London in the UK. But for me, the narratively 763 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:48,800 people have got to understand that the economic generator of 764 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,900 the Elizabeth line is for the whole country, particularly for 765 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:55,800 London, Southeast peaceful country and secondly, building 766 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,600 spending 20 billion quid billions went into local 767 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:04,000 economies. So I'd know I Spy That's not to 768 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,400 say, we shouldn't have great transportation in the north and 769 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,200 you know, they're like the transparent upgrades really 770 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,300 fantastic program and the latest work on buses in Manchester 771 00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:15,500 looks fantastic. But in major programs coming 772 00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:17,400 out, I really hope that we get on the size while. 773 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,800 See, you know, I really hope that and when size won't gets 774 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,300 built it'll benefit the Suffolk Coast but I'm sure whoever 775 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:29,200 builds it will will be a huge, huge pipeline in. 776 00:42:29,500 --> 00:42:32,700 And I think that's why, by the way, Andy Byford is such a 777 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,000 Fantastic, commissioner for London and I really hope she 778 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,600 gets a sustainable Capital deal because a vibrant London is 779 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:45,700 essential and that's coming from a working class. 780 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:48,700 Boy from Adam pit villager. I understand that a vibrant 781 00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:52,900 London is absolutely essential. Yes, there's a sort of, there's 782 00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:56,200 a polarity developing in the kind of debate about everything 783 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,700 everywhere isn't there, which is kind of damaging, really? 784 00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:02,200 It's not either, or it's both isn't it, the kind of who knows 785 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,600 together. And what kind of mold and we all 786 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,400 report saying? Well, that was fascinating, I 787 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:09,400 really enjoyed to. Thank you. 788 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,300 Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your 789 00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:19,300 time today. Thanks to mark for taking time 790 00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:21,600 out to join, Andy and conversation and to you for 791 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,800 listening to this podcast for extra content from Mark. 792 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,600 Look out for the Autumn edition of apm's project Journal, which 793 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,400 is arson September. If you have any comments, 794 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,800 feedback, or suggestions contact us at a p.m. podcast at think 795 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,400 publishing .co.uk, this podcast has been brought to you by APM 796 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:41,800 the childhood body for the project profession. 797 00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,500 For more information visit to a p.m. dot-org But UK. 798 00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:45,500 But UK.