Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
in this podcast. I'm very pleased to welcome Amy
Morley, AP M's new chair. Amy is the childhood project
professional and is currently a Programme Management Senior
Director at Acom, an industry leader in programme management
services for large complex infrastructure programmes, where
she's part of the programme management global business line.
I'm talking to Amy about everything from what the future
might hold for APM and the project profession to any career
lessons she might like to share. Hi Amy.
Welcome. Hi, Emma, great to talk to you.
First up, congratulations on becoming chair, but you've been
in posts a little while now, haven't you?
Towards the beginning of the year, yeah.
What do you want to achieve during your time in post as
chair and perhaps what are your priorities and plans for APM
going forward? My priority ultimately is to,
you know, support the APM and achieving its goals and
supporting the board and the APM as a whole in order to go to do
that. But I also think that project
management itself is continuing to evolve into more of a
strategic enabler across industries and across projects.
And I really want to continue to support that and to continue to
support project management in that evolution.
I also want to support the APM in strengthening our voice in
policy, expanding our reach globally.
So we've talked before around the AP Ms priority to move more
internationally and globally and to share a lot of our
experiences and lessons in that way.
And of course, most importantly, ensuring that we're equipping
people and professionals with the skills that they need for
the project management challenges that are coming
ahead. So be digital transformation,
complex stakeholders, sustainability, etcetera.
I think, you know, the APM, you know, continues to review those
things and and continues to make sure that we're providing what
it is that project professionals need right now.
Like I'm just listening to you. There's, there's kind of stuff
at every level from I guess dealing with the skills gap.
So you know, there's a really strong demand for project
professionals. There aren't enough and demand
is only going to get stronger. So that's one surround.
Another strand is what you're talking about re skilling people
or making sure they have the right mindset, I guess towards
all the kind of transformation AI that we're being.
Then at the very top level, it's about making the C-Suite more
appreciative, I guess of project, project management
function and making that more professionalised, which I guess
ties in with organisations themselves becoming more project
focused. I mean, my next question really
is around the future of project management.
So separate SOAP, there are these much bigger trends what
what you see in your. Work that has made.
You flex on these issues. Yes.
And I think it is exactly what you said there.
So you know, I think project management you is evolving and
is continuing to evolve and actually quite rapidly driven by
a requirement of how projects and how organisations are
operating. And I think, you know, project
management is is still shifting away from, you know, perhaps
task focused or delivery focused discipline to being a much more
strategic enabler of outcomes or strategic enablers of
transformation. And I think there are, you know,
a number of things that that the future of project management
kind of holds. So I think that, you know,
individuals who are now moving into the project management
space need to, you know, navigate a level of complexity
perhaps that hasn't existed in the past.
I think there are additional elements that need to be
considered when we're undertaking project management
of large projects, including, you know, innovations,
sustainability, significant kind of stakeholder engagement.
And I think all of those things require a different type of
skill set. So I think maybe, you know, at
one point we might have talked about certainly in the project
management leadership space, you know, people perhaps focus very
much on technical skills. And I think now that we're
seeing quite a big shift into more of an emphasis perhaps on
those leadership skills or the, or the, I hate to use the
phrase, but you know, those softer skills around, you know,
influencing around listening around collaboration and kind of
shifting more into a trusted advisor type space rather than
perhaps being completely task driven and focused on kind of
output. So, you know, I think there's a,
there's an element there of needing to think about both.
What does the landscape for project management look like?
But what are the skill sets that we now need as a project
management profession to be able to fulfil landscape?
That's quite a big shift, isn't it?
Because if you started out in your career and you need to know
the technical stuff you're doing with the nitty gritty of a
project, perhaps you're not managing others, but you
certainly need to learn how to be a good collaborator.
Because the people I interview who've have been on successful
projects on the perhaps ones that have failed, but not
through for whatever other reasons.
But the thing that comes across as this great need for clear
communication, honesty, transparency, These are quite
big things to get your head around if you're just sort of
early professions. So it's really good from you to
but that's the sort of thing you can think about right from the
start of your career, isn't it? I think so and and that's
actually one of the things for me this clarity is really
important in project management around communicating the
deliverable, the that you're kind of engagement.
I think doing so with clarity goes a huge, you know, huge
distance in terms of being able to both deliver.
But then, you know, in my mind and in my world, kind of
building relationships with them clients or building
relationships in terms of those wider projects.
But I think that point is that you say around the early careers
is really important. Because I think for me, I think
project managers hold a huge kind of weight of responsibility
in terms of being able to be transparent and building that
trust and being honest about what we're seeing in a project
environment, how things are going, how things are
progressing. And I think, you know, there are
projects that are perhaps not going as well as they might have
intended at the beginning for variety of reasons.
And I think kind of learning really early on around that
integrity and transparency and honesty around being able to
understand that, understand the drivers for it and be
communicating those with clarity, you know, is a big is a
big factor of being successful in the project management space.
But it's easier said than done. Have you?
Have you got any tips that you would pass on that actually
works in real life when it comes to communication?
Or have you been lucky enough to have a leader or project manager
that you've admired and copied what they've done any any kind
of tips like that you could? Pass on.
I've been, I've been extraordinarily fortunate in my
career and working with some fantastic leaders and some
fantastic people who absolutely have both demonstrated that
ability to be able to communicate transparently.
But then I've also offered that support when, you know, perhaps
I've needed to have a difficult conversation or if I've
escalated something or raised the query or needed to kind of
communicate in that way. And so yes, it's of course not
just completely down to the individual.
It needs to be down to everybody on the project team to set that
standard and to support one another to be able to act in
that way. And I think, you know, lots of
the research that we're seeing now is demonstrating that
collaborative leadership isn't just about being a style.
It is a genuine advantage and a, and a genuine factor in
accelerating problem solving and building the kind of culture
that means that where you're facing complexity or you're
facing challenges, then you're more likely to be able to get
over those and more likely to be able to succeed if you're
working in a way that you know, the environment is
collaborative. So.
I guess you obviously feel very optimistic about the future of
project management, but I haven't asked you specifically
what the opportunities are for the profession.
I mean, that demand is there's not really more and more people
in the profession, but what do you think are the opportunities?
I think there are a lot of opportunities.
So, you know, I think we haven't perhaps talked that much here
around the digital transformation.
And it's interesting because I think a lot of the conversation
that's happening, you know, certainly in project management
and even more so maybe in project controls is almost
thinking about digital transformation as a, as a
threat. But I think it's a real
opportunity. And I think that the digital
transformation is going to really continue to shape how we
plan, how we execute, how we can use data and analytics to
monitor projects, how we can build greater efficiency and
automation into projects. And ultimately, for me, I think
that's going to enhance decision making and reduce risk on
projects. And if we as management
professionals are focused on the outcomes of projects, then we
need to leverage and get ahead of the curve in, in the AI and
digital transformation space and start integrating and thinking
about how we can maximise that on projects.
Rather than thinking, which I heard even in the last couple of
days that, you know, AI will take over the profession.
We won't have project controls professionals.
I, I personally don't see it that way.
You know, for me, I think that utilising those tools will
enable the human element and some of the things we've talked
about already around that strategic enablement of projects
to perhaps have more time to do those things.
To start thinking about what is the analytics and the data
telling us? What are all the decisions that
we can make to act on those datas and start to drive, you
know, projects or improve the outcomes of projects overall.
So see that as a real opportunity and something that,
you know, I'd like to see more of coming through and and kind
of seeing more projects adopt some of that.
It's a little bit slow right now because we're trying to figure
out exactly how to do that. Yeah, we've talked a little bit
around the opportunity of, you know, shifting, you know, the
leadership style and thinking about how project management,
you know, the space that project management fills in a project
and moving more from, you know, task oriented or back office
type functions. And I think we're seeing much
more, you know, C-Suite positions.
I think the APM talks about having these chief project
officers, but, you know, at AC suite level.
But certainly we're seeing more project controls, you know,
directors and others sitting at that C-Suite.
And I think, you know, there's a real opportunity there for
continuing to position and show value and show how projects can
continue succeed with that in and that that kind of
information. You're kind of answering my next
question because I was going to ask you what, what needs to
change for the profession to thrive.
But already it's about using AI and data in a smart way to
increase project success. And rather than seeing it as a
threat, viewing it very much as a very useful, valuable tool
towards efficiency and delivering projects better.
Also around leadership, you were saying, but is there anything
else that needs to change around the profession or maybe around
governance or assurance or anything that you've that's kind
of close to your heart? I think one thing we've not
touched on is around, you know, promoting and building diverse
career pathways, recognising the skills shortage that there is in
the project management space. I think we need to be creating
and promoting different career pathways and enabling people to
think about the skills that they've built in a particular
area and how that they could be transferable or moved into the
project management space. And I think many, many roles and
many, many skills could be transferable into the project
management space if we were open in creating and promoting kind
of different career pathways I'm.
Always impressed by the project management profession because
you can come in as an apprentice, you can come in mid
career having done something completely different.
You don't have to have gone to university, you can.
It's just still one of the few professions that are completely
open in that way, which I find really heartening actually.
And also I guess I think to promote is that people can move
between sectors as well. Would you agree with that?
Do you think people can transfer between different sectors as a
project professional? I do, I really do.
And and it's interesting. So, you know, one of the
projects that I worked on, one of the great things that I saw
was their apprenticeship programme.
And we had people that would have been, you know, maybe mid
career that were in their mid 20s or even early 30s or older
joining the apprenticeship programme and kind of relearning
and re skilling to become a project manager.
And that was incredible to see and a real opportunity is some
of these mega projects, I guess, to be able to do that and build
a career, you know, in a longer term project.
So definitely that and definitely I think there's an
opportunity to move sectors. I think inevitably it depends on
the role that you're going to do, because clearly different
sectors require different kind of technical ability.
But I think that if you are a very strong, you know, generic,
all good project manager, you can apply those same skills and
that same expertise in any of the sectors that that operate.
And I think as much as anything, what I would say is I think it
requires leaders in those sectors to sometimes maybe step
outside of their comfort zone and take a bit of a risk on
hiring something that doesn't necessarily fit the must have 10
years of ex experience. Because I think you you gain a
different way of thinking, you'll gain a different kind of
perspective potentially and build some diversity in the
team. So.
Tell me a bit about your current role and the projects you're
you're. Working on.
SO I, in addition to being the Chair of the APMI work for ACOM
and I'm a part of their programme management global
business line, which effectively provides programme management
services for large complex infrastructure programmes around
the world. One of the things that's been a
big focus for acom is building that programme management
business line and delivering, we call them delivery partner kind
of roles. So we often have clients who are
setting up big infrastructure projects and they identify that
they perhaps need support with specific expertise or skills or
experience that they themselves in a project environment,
perhaps don't want to hire full time because the project has got
a particular lifespan or has particular skills that are only
needed for a particular point in time.
And so Acom effectively offers a service as a delivery partner
where we will work alongside a client team to bring that
experience and expertise to support, you know, ultimate the
delivery of the project. So yeah, you mentioned I, I
worked for HS2 for around 10 years and I joined ACOM just
over a year ago. I'm currently based in Toronto
in Canada. So my family and I moved here at
the beginning of July and I came across as part of the programme
management team to support a transport project here in the
city which are developing and building a metro extension.
So I lead our deliberate partner team and we work very closely
with our client here and a number of different things on
the project, but ultimately to help them achieve a successful
delivery of that of that metro extension.
How did you end up in project management and could you give me
a brief overview of your career today?
Because like you say, well, the thing, the term is like a zigzag
career, but. Yeah, I think that's right.
And then, yeah.
And as you say, like lots of people, I didn't really
necessarily start out in project management, but I was, you know,
I was drawn to it probably through roles that required
coordination, problem solving, stakeholder management, and
probably built some foundational skills that then, as I talked
about, were quite transferable into where's my career going?
What is it that I wanted to kind of pursue?
And project management was a great fit for lots of the things
that I've kind of done in my early career.
And I think one of the things that I realised I really loved
and continue to really love is bringing structure to complexity
and kind of driving outcomes and those deliverables.
How did you come across it? Was it someone that did you know
about project management? So I started my career in
largely administrative roles. I didn't go to university At
classic time. When you go to university, I did
do a degree later, but I didn't go to university.
I started working in administrative roles and I lived
in Dorset, which not to take away from Dorset, which is a
wonderful place when you're an adult and have children, but
didn't necessarily offer the career aspirations that I had in
mind. And so I decided to go
travelling. So instead of going to
university when I was 19, I packed up my bags.
I went to New Zealand for a year and when I came back I got a job
up working in agricultural college, which again was
wonderful, really fantastic. But I wanted to do something
else. So I I moved to London and took
a role at the BBC as a personal assistant effectively.
And I worked in a number of different roles at the BBC,
including as PA to what was then the head of BBC News, which was
a really cool job, but absolutely loved it.
But I was, I was always thinking I wanted to do something more
than that, those kind of administrative roles, and was
thinking where could I kind of gain those skills or kind of
branch out? And I took a job, applied for
and was successful in getting a job working for the Cabinet
Office, which was a really interesting time in politics
because we were in the coalition government between the Lib Dems
and the Conservatives. And they were championing a
policy at that time around devolving powers from central
government to local authorities. And I joined the team initially
in an administrative role and they had just come out of an
audit that told the team that they needed to do project
management. And the really fantastic,
inspirational woman that ran the team was like, right, Amy,
you're the project manager go. And I was like, oh, OK.
And I, I spent a huge amount of my personal time doing APM
courses and reading a lot about project management in, in the
evenings. And I spoke to lots of friends
and colleagues who worked at various consultancies and read
about techs and project plans and all the things that you need
to do. And, and effectively schooled
myself through support of the team and through training to do
this project management role. And was effectively a team of
one that put in place a number of different project management
kind of products and materials and ran this project for a
number of years in the Cabinet Office.
And for me, you know, there's been a number of different
formative times in my career, but that was a huge.
Kind of pivot moment, I guess for making that transition into
into project management and really kind of pushing myself to
learn and and kind of build the skills I guess.
And very much enabled by a fantastic and supportive leader
of that team who who gave me a lot of the support and guidance
that I needed to be able to do that I wanted.
To ask you about how professions changed over time since you've
worked in IT, but specifically it just was, I was just thinking
then as you were talking about, you know, HS2 and I think of
transport. And.
Construction as being very male dominated sectors and I wonder
if it's made any difference to you that you've that you're a
woman. Is that something that you've
been kind of conscious of in terms of career at work?
Is it been a negative? A positive hasn't made a blind
bit of difference and just wondered what your thoughts are,
if you're happy to share. You know about your experience
but also as a woman in a senior role, you can see what still
needs to change. But how do we make that change
happen? You absolutely not just in
transport. I think in big infrastructure
projects in all sectors, it still continues to be, you know,
predominantly male dominated. I think it is changing and I
think it is changing for the better.
But for sure I think that there are still kind of fewer women in
leadership positions. And although it's changing on
projects that I've worked at, even if the percentages were
quite high, by the time you reached kind of SLT exec and
certainly board level, those percentages had dwindled
somewhat. So, yeah, there is undoubtedly
more to do. I think, you know, for me
personally, I'm not sure that it's held me back.
I think I have always perhaps approached, you know, working
life as as an equal. I don't think I should be
treated any differently as a woman.
I don't think I should be treated worse or better and just
contribute. And as long as I'm being judged
on my output and the value that I'm bringing and the things that
I'm doing, then, you know, we carry on.
I think that said, I'm sure there's an element and I'm sure
there's an element, you know, probably I've needed to work in
some respects harder or I feel like I've needed to maybe work
harder, but that might be a personal thing to maybe achieve
the same things. But it is a real juggle with
family and a big job. I have a 2 year old and a four
year old. Our family, perhaps we have
slightly reverse roles. So my husband stopped working
when we had our now 4 year old. And he does a wonderful job in
juggling all the things that need to be juggled with, with
the kids, which means that I can, you know, continue to meet
all the commitments that I need to meet from a kind of work
perspective. But the juggle is still
nevertheless there. And I'm reminded, oh gosh, the
woman's name escapes me, but she's the, she's a very famous
producer of Bridgeton and Grey's Anatomy and doing a big speech,
you know, how do you do it all? And, and she kind of said, well,
you don't, you don't do it all. And if you're, if you're
succeeding at work, then you're probably not fulfilling all the
things that you need to do at home.
And if you're succeeding at home and you're probably not doing
all the things that you need to do at work.
And life's a kind of constant juggle of needing to kind of fit
what needs to be done on any which day or week or month.
And, you know, reality of that. I think in in existing,
interestingly, I talk about this sometimes in that, you know,
it's still quite unusual that my husband is a, you know, stay at
home dad or whatever the right terminology is.
And I think it's been very, very interesting watching and seeing
his experience of being a stay at home dad and that society is
not that set up for stay at home's dad.
So, you know, going to swimming lessons and they're not being
male changing rooms because both of them are being used by mums
because it's predominantly women that go or, you know, to
different groups and nobody's speaking or engaging.
Like there's lots of elements to it.
And I think women as well as women absolutely genuinely
looking for equality in the workplace, I think there is a
lot that we also can do as women to enable some of those things
to change, which help us in doing that too.
You know, and thinking more openly around how we're sharing
those responsibilities, how we're continuing to kind of
normalise those things in the way in which we're doing them.
Because I think without that it's going to be very hard to
try and meet meet those equalities.
OK, thank you. What career lessons have you
learnt so far and what advice would you pass on to project
professionals? I think.
One big lesson that you again, a fantastic leader that I worked
with shared with me early on and it still stays with me now.
And I tell lots of people the same thing, which is that you
have time. And I think that often early
careers people and even mid career people perhaps are kind
of rushing to the I need to do my two years and then rush to
the next thing. And I need to do my two years
and then rush to the next thing. And I need to do my two years
and then rush to the next thing. And I, and I think you, one of
the big things for me was just the, you have time to experience
and maybe do that zigzag that we talked about and perhaps has
been a little bit of a feature of my career, which is that it
doesn't need to be linear. You've got time to maybe do a
slightly different role in a zigzag, experience what that has
to offer and then zigzag back and continue on that trajectory
because what you'll learn from doing that will be, you know,
fundamental or or kind of significant to the way that you
move forward. So I definitely think that's
factor. The other thing I'll say is that
build strong relationships. Everything in the way in which I
try and do things in the way in which I think projects, you
know, operate successfully is on the basis of strong
relationships and building that, you know, trust, building a
network frankly as well. It's a really small world, so
you have everything is based on building good relationships,
maintaining good relationships, and you move around different
projects and you come across a lot of the same people.
And I think there's been a big factor for me I think is really
investing in people and really investing in those relationships
in terms of advice. So apart from the things that
I've said, I think I guess a big part is then focusing on
outcomes, not just outputs. So yeah, you can do a great
task, but what is it ultimately contributing to?
What are you trying to drive for in delivering that particular
task? And I guess the the last thing
will be, you know, embrace change.
Change is the only thing that remains constant in a project
management profession. And I think if it's it's, it's
difficult for people to continually manage change.
We hear that a lot. But actually in projects, the
people who are the most successful of those who can bend
and adapt and shift and move with the change, accepting that
change is not something to be frightened of in a project.
It is just what happens in projects.
You get something coming in field, it changes the
requirements, the stakeholder engagement changes the, you
know, the goal posters change, the dates move, whatever it
might be. The only thing that is constant
is change and, and kind of getting more comfortable with
that and building the skills to adapt to that.
I think is a, is a is a key thing.
Is that something that comes naturally to you?
Have you always sight change or or has it been hard to?
I guess it's like accepting that you don't have control over
everything, which can be hard if you love organisation and
putting structure and processes in place.
I can see that, but I think the trick is pivoting quickly enough
to build the structure around the organisation, around the new
world. I think recognising that at the
beginning it won't ever be the same as you go through, but it
doesn't for me anyway, I don't think it means that you've you
lose some of that structure. I think it's more about how
quickly you can pivot, read the situation, understand what the
kind of changing brief is and then rebuild that kind of
structure and process and logical way through to then get
to the new outcome or the new goal or the new kind of targets
ahead of you. So for me I think I can do both
but. Yeah, and it's part of being a
leader like that and being able to pivot and change mean that
you have to be a strong decision maker.
So I've interviewed people in the past about how they make
decisions and somebody who impressed me, nice was like, you
just got to make a decision. And if you recognise quickly
it's a wrong decision, you can then move.
It's OK. Like you can't do that too many
times. You've still got to seem
competent and authoritative, but it's better.
What's yours take on decision making?
I, I absolutely would agree with the person you're talking to.
I sort of use this phrase sort of fail fast.
So, you know, make the decision, fail fast, learn from it, and
then kind of move forward. I definitely think there's an
element of that. Interestingly, yes, make the
decisions quickly, but I also think that, you know, the the
hardest thing about working in a changing environment is bringing
everybody with you as a leader on that change.
And so then perhaps not just about the decision making, but
that clarity point we talked around earlier, which is around,
you know, clarity and communication, clarity and kind
of or continuously communicating with the team and helping them
understand the change, helping them understand the new
direction and the way that, you know, we can move forward.
I think that probably for me, from a leadership perspective,
is one of the hardest things. I'm conscious of time, so just
to finish up, I just wanted to ask you whether there were any
leadership lessons that you'd want to pass on to listeners
that they could put into practise?
Probably perhaps people who are early on in their career or mid
career who think they're aspiring to get to sort of, you
know, higher up the project management tree.
Is there anything you'd like to pass on that's worked well for
you or you've admired in others? You particularly for those
people who are perhaps early careers, you know, surround
yourself with people that you can learn from.
And I think, you know, you don't have to copy everything that you
see in other people, but being able to think about how you're
picking out things that people are doing really well or even
maybe not so well that you want to avoid.
I think it's for me, I think it was a was a big thing.
I think we touched on, you know, building strong relationships.
I think that's everything. And I think building your
ability to build strong relationships is, is a kind of
key skill and a key ability in project management.
And I guess then the last thing would be, you know, never
underestimate the power of clarity, whether it's in
communication, whether it's in your planning, whether it's in
your decision making. I think always trying to come
back to being really clear and transparent, I think is a is a
key, yeah, key factor for me. How do you learn to become
clearer? Do you do you get, is that the
sort of thing where you ask your colleagues who really brave and
so like, do you have a 360 appraisal and how, how can I be
more clear in communicating? Because that's quite tough,
isn't it? I think it is tough, but I think
that I think it is a skill that can be learned.
And I think it's just, it's both in the way in which you
communicate, but the way in which you write.
I always remember somebody saying to me, tell me what I
need to know, not what you know. And I guess there's something in
my mind where I'm thinking, OK, well how do I break down into
like 3 bullet points, the message that I need to get
across or the decision that I'm looking for from somebody else?
That means that we can get to that decision most effectively.
And I think that's taken practise and experience and
crafting to learn how to write in a particular way or how to
present something in a particular way.
I don't think it's something that you can just do.
I think it's, you know, repeatedly presenting to
different audiences or repeatedly kind of writing
papers and then working out. Well, that didn't quite go as I
intended. And, you know, or I've presented
something that I thought was really clear.
And then you get 50 questions about it and you think, well,
that wasn't clear, was it? Because I've had to now explain
the slide for the last 15 minutes.
And so then when you go around doing it next time, think, OK,
well, what would be a better way of laying that out?
And definitely asking colleagues.
I don't think it's something you can do on your own.
I, I definitely ask other people and say I'm trying to do X or Y,
you know, have you got some great examples of where you
might have done that in a different project?
So within our network, we can do that a lot or so.
Yeah. On on within your own team, then
ask people for feedback. But equally, you know, if if you
read the room and you go and do something back to that fail
fast. OK, well that didn't work.
Let's go back and think about how we could could do that
better for next time. OK, brilliant.
That's bringing away to under our podcast.
It just leaves me to say thank you so much for your time.
It's been brilliant speaking to you learned a lot.
I really. Appreciate it's been a real
privilege to be part of it. Thank you so much for inviting
me. Thanks again, Tammy, for joining
us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
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