1 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,120 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,320 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,720 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,040 in this podcast. I'm very pleased to welcome Amy 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,720 Morley, AP M's new chair. Amy is the childhood project 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,520 professional and is currently a Programme Management Senior 7 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,880 Director at Acom, an industry leader in programme management 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,280 services for large complex infrastructure programmes, where 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,840 she's part of the programme management global business line. 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,920 I'm talking to Amy about everything from what the future 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,480 might hold for APM and the project profession to any career 12 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:53,040 lessons she might like to share. Hi Amy. 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,280 Welcome. Hi, Emma, great to talk to you. 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,600 First up, congratulations on becoming chair, but you've been 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,280 in posts a little while now, haven't you? 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,320 Towards the beginning of the year, yeah. 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,040 What do you want to achieve during your time in post as 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,240 chair and perhaps what are your priorities and plans for APM 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,840 going forward? My priority ultimately is to, 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,800 you know, support the APM and achieving its goals and 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,360 supporting the board and the APM as a whole in order to go to do 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,880 that. But I also think that project 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,760 management itself is continuing to evolve into more of a 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,120 strategic enabler across industries and across projects. 25 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,600 And I really want to continue to support that and to continue to 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,560 support project management in that evolution. 27 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:44,240 I also want to support the APM in strengthening our voice in 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,160 policy, expanding our reach globally. 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,760 So we've talked before around the AP Ms priority to move more 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,520 internationally and globally and to share a lot of our 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,000 experiences and lessons in that way. 32 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,440 And of course, most importantly, ensuring that we're equipping 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,520 people and professionals with the skills that they need for 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,680 the project management challenges that are coming 35 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,479 ahead. So be digital transformation, 36 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:12,320 complex stakeholders, sustainability, etcetera. 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,200 I think, you know, the APM, you know, continues to review those 38 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,240 things and and continues to make sure that we're providing what 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,600 it is that project professionals need right now. 40 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,880 Like I'm just listening to you. There's, there's kind of stuff 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,680 at every level from I guess dealing with the skills gap. 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,760 So you know, there's a really strong demand for project 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,600 professionals. There aren't enough and demand 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,280 is only going to get stronger. So that's one surround. 45 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,960 Another strand is what you're talking about re skilling people 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,240 or making sure they have the right mindset, I guess towards 47 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,440 all the kind of transformation AI that we're being. 48 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:55,840 Then at the very top level, it's about making the C-Suite more 49 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,440 appreciative, I guess of project, project management 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,880 function and making that more professionalised, which I guess 51 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,960 ties in with organisations themselves becoming more project 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,040 focused. I mean, my next question really 53 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,160 is around the future of project management. 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,600 So separate SOAP, there are these much bigger trends what 55 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:19,720 what you see in your. Work that has made. 56 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,600 You flex on these issues. Yes. 57 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:26,880 And I think it is exactly what you said there. 58 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,560 So you know, I think project management you is evolving and 59 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,280 is continuing to evolve and actually quite rapidly driven by 60 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,080 a requirement of how projects and how organisations are 61 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,880 operating. And I think, you know, project 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,640 management is is still shifting away from, you know, perhaps 63 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,520 task focused or delivery focused discipline to being a much more 64 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,880 strategic enabler of outcomes or strategic enablers of 65 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,960 transformation. And I think there are, you know, 66 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,640 a number of things that that the future of project management 67 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,920 kind of holds. So I think that, you know, 68 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,120 individuals who are now moving into the project management 69 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,000 space need to, you know, navigate a level of complexity 70 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,280 perhaps that hasn't existed in the past. 71 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,680 I think there are additional elements that need to be 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,560 considered when we're undertaking project management 73 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,600 of large projects, including, you know, innovations, 74 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,680 sustainability, significant kind of stakeholder engagement. 75 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,920 And I think all of those things require a different type of 76 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,040 skill set. So I think maybe, you know, at 77 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,720 one point we might have talked about certainly in the project 78 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,640 management leadership space, you know, people perhaps focus very 79 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,040 much on technical skills. And I think now that we're 80 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,240 seeing quite a big shift into more of an emphasis perhaps on 81 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,680 those leadership skills or the, or the, I hate to use the 82 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,680 phrase, but you know, those softer skills around, you know, 83 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,080 influencing around listening around collaboration and kind of 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,800 shifting more into a trusted advisor type space rather than 85 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,560 perhaps being completely task driven and focused on kind of 86 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,880 output. So, you know, I think there's a, 87 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,440 there's an element there of needing to think about both. 88 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:17,640 What does the landscape for project management look like? 89 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,080 But what are the skill sets that we now need as a project 90 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,960 management profession to be able to fulfil landscape? 91 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,160 That's quite a big shift, isn't it? 92 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,160 Because if you started out in your career and you need to know 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,240 the technical stuff you're doing with the nitty gritty of a 94 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,040 project, perhaps you're not managing others, but you 95 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,040 certainly need to learn how to be a good collaborator. 96 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,520 Because the people I interview who've have been on successful 97 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,920 projects on the perhaps ones that have failed, but not 98 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,960 through for whatever other reasons. 99 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,760 But the thing that comes across as this great need for clear 100 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,160 communication, honesty, transparency, These are quite 101 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,520 big things to get your head around if you're just sort of 102 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,920 early professions. So it's really good from you to 103 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,000 but that's the sort of thing you can think about right from the 104 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,000 start of your career, isn't it? I think so and and that's 105 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,760 actually one of the things for me this clarity is really 106 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,080 important in project management around communicating the 107 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,240 deliverable, the that you're kind of engagement. 108 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,560 I think doing so with clarity goes a huge, you know, huge 109 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,280 distance in terms of being able to both deliver. 110 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:27,200 But then, you know, in my mind and in my world, kind of 111 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,440 building relationships with them clients or building 112 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,800 relationships in terms of those wider projects. 113 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,040 But I think that point is that you say around the early careers 114 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,360 is really important. Because I think for me, I think 115 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,160 project managers hold a huge kind of weight of responsibility 116 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,280 in terms of being able to be transparent and building that 117 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:49,200 trust and being honest about what we're seeing in a project 118 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,760 environment, how things are going, how things are 119 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,200 progressing. And I think, you know, there are 120 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,080 projects that are perhaps not going as well as they might have 121 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,280 intended at the beginning for variety of reasons. 122 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,640 And I think kind of learning really early on around that 123 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,760 integrity and transparency and honesty around being able to 124 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,200 understand that, understand the drivers for it and be 125 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,080 communicating those with clarity, you know, is a big is a 126 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,720 big factor of being successful in the project management space. 127 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,080 But it's easier said than done. Have you? 128 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,200 Have you got any tips that you would pass on that actually 129 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,240 works in real life when it comes to communication? 130 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,120 Or have you been lucky enough to have a leader or project manager 131 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,560 that you've admired and copied what they've done any any kind 132 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,760 of tips like that you could? Pass on. 133 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,840 I've been, I've been extraordinarily fortunate in my 134 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,320 career and working with some fantastic leaders and some 135 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:51,600 fantastic people who absolutely have both demonstrated that 136 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,280 ability to be able to communicate transparently. 137 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,120 But then I've also offered that support when, you know, perhaps 138 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,640 I've needed to have a difficult conversation or if I've 139 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,000 escalated something or raised the query or needed to kind of 140 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,200 communicate in that way. And so yes, it's of course not 141 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,000 just completely down to the individual. 142 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,880 It needs to be down to everybody on the project team to set that 143 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,000 standard and to support one another to be able to act in 144 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,880 that way. And I think, you know, lots of 145 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,760 the research that we're seeing now is demonstrating that 146 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,600 collaborative leadership isn't just about being a style. 147 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,159 It is a genuine advantage and a, and a genuine factor in 148 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:36,280 accelerating problem solving and building the kind of culture 149 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,200 that means that where you're facing complexity or you're 150 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,480 facing challenges, then you're more likely to be able to get 151 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,320 over those and more likely to be able to succeed if you're 152 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,560 working in a way that you know, the environment is 153 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:47,400 collaborative. So. 154 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,120 I guess you obviously feel very optimistic about the future of 155 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,160 project management, but I haven't asked you specifically 156 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,640 what the opportunities are for the profession. 157 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,480 I mean, that demand is there's not really more and more people 158 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,000 in the profession, but what do you think are the opportunities? 159 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,720 I think there are a lot of opportunities. 160 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,960 So, you know, I think we haven't perhaps talked that much here 161 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,560 around the digital transformation. 162 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:13,920 And it's interesting because I think a lot of the conversation 163 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,640 that's happening, you know, certainly in project management 164 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,120 and even more so maybe in project controls is almost 165 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,160 thinking about digital transformation as a, as a 166 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,680 threat. But I think it's a real 167 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,680 opportunity. And I think that the digital 168 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:30,960 transformation is going to really continue to shape how we 169 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,480 plan, how we execute, how we can use data and analytics to 170 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,920 monitor projects, how we can build greater efficiency and 171 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,840 automation into projects. And ultimately, for me, I think 172 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,440 that's going to enhance decision making and reduce risk on 173 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,040 projects. And if we as management 174 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,560 professionals are focused on the outcomes of projects, then we 175 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,480 need to leverage and get ahead of the curve in, in the AI and 176 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,800 digital transformation space and start integrating and thinking 177 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,360 about how we can maximise that on projects. 178 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Rather than thinking, which I heard even in the last couple of 179 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,320 days that, you know, AI will take over the profession. 180 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,640 We won't have project controls professionals. 181 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,920 I, I personally don't see it that way. 182 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,400 You know, for me, I think that utilising those tools will 183 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,160 enable the human element and some of the things we've talked 184 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,440 about already around that strategic enablement of projects 185 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,880 to perhaps have more time to do those things. 186 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,280 To start thinking about what is the analytics and the data 187 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,400 telling us? What are all the decisions that 188 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,320 we can make to act on those datas and start to drive, you 189 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,120 know, projects or improve the outcomes of projects overall. 190 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,120 So see that as a real opportunity and something that, 191 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,360 you know, I'd like to see more of coming through and and kind 192 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,160 of seeing more projects adopt some of that. 193 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,000 It's a little bit slow right now because we're trying to figure 194 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,480 out exactly how to do that. Yeah, we've talked a little bit 195 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,480 around the opportunity of, you know, shifting, you know, the 196 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,440 leadership style and thinking about how project management, 197 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,800 you know, the space that project management fills in a project 198 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,520 and moving more from, you know, task oriented or back office 199 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,600 type functions. And I think we're seeing much 200 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,040 more, you know, C-Suite positions. 201 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,920 I think the APM talks about having these chief project 202 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,400 officers, but, you know, at AC suite level. 203 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,480 But certainly we're seeing more project controls, you know, 204 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,120 directors and others sitting at that C-Suite. 205 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,280 And I think, you know, there's a real opportunity there for 206 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:38,920 continuing to position and show value and show how projects can 207 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,760 continue succeed with that in and that that kind of 208 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,520 information. You're kind of answering my next 209 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,120 question because I was going to ask you what, what needs to 210 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,400 change for the profession to thrive. 211 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,800 But already it's about using AI and data in a smart way to 212 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,280 increase project success. And rather than seeing it as a 213 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,480 threat, viewing it very much as a very useful, valuable tool 214 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,800 towards efficiency and delivering projects better. 215 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,280 Also around leadership, you were saying, but is there anything 216 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,400 else that needs to change around the profession or maybe around 217 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,960 governance or assurance or anything that you've that's kind 218 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,160 of close to your heart? I think one thing we've not 219 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,840 touched on is around, you know, promoting and building diverse 220 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,720 career pathways, recognising the skills shortage that there is in 221 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,640 the project management space. I think we need to be creating 222 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,800 and promoting different career pathways and enabling people to 223 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:41,040 think about the skills that they've built in a particular 224 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,240 area and how that they could be transferable or moved into the 225 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,200 project management space. And I think many, many roles and 226 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,400 many, many skills could be transferable into the project 227 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,720 management space if we were open in creating and promoting kind 228 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,760 of different career pathways I'm. 229 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,600 Always impressed by the project management profession because 230 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,800 you can come in as an apprentice, you can come in mid 231 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,040 career having done something completely different. 232 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,160 You don't have to have gone to university, you can. 233 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,440 It's just still one of the few professions that are completely 234 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,800 open in that way, which I find really heartening actually. 235 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,120 And also I guess I think to promote is that people can move 236 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,520 between sectors as well. Would you agree with that? 237 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,760 Do you think people can transfer between different sectors as a 238 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,680 project professional? I do, I really do. 239 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,960 And and it's interesting. So, you know, one of the 240 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,920 projects that I worked on, one of the great things that I saw 241 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,360 was their apprenticeship programme. 242 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,400 And we had people that would have been, you know, maybe mid 243 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,440 career that were in their mid 20s or even early 30s or older 244 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,440 joining the apprenticeship programme and kind of relearning 245 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,360 and re skilling to become a project manager. 246 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,280 And that was incredible to see and a real opportunity is some 247 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,880 of these mega projects, I guess, to be able to do that and build 248 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,480 a career, you know, in a longer term project. 249 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,600 So definitely that and definitely I think there's an 250 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,080 opportunity to move sectors. I think inevitably it depends on 251 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,920 the role that you're going to do, because clearly different 252 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,840 sectors require different kind of technical ability. 253 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,000 But I think that if you are a very strong, you know, generic, 254 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,320 all good project manager, you can apply those same skills and 255 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,720 that same expertise in any of the sectors that that operate. 256 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,360 And I think as much as anything, what I would say is I think it 257 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,080 requires leaders in those sectors to sometimes maybe step 258 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,280 outside of their comfort zone and take a bit of a risk on 259 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,440 hiring something that doesn't necessarily fit the must have 10 260 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,640 years of ex experience. Because I think you you gain a 261 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,600 different way of thinking, you'll gain a different kind of 262 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,320 perspective potentially and build some diversity in the 263 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:53,080 team. So. 264 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,880 Tell me a bit about your current role and the projects you're 265 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:57,720 you're. Working on. 266 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,400 SO I, in addition to being the Chair of the APMI work for ACOM 267 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,360 and I'm a part of their programme management global 268 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,200 business line, which effectively provides programme management 269 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,480 services for large complex infrastructure programmes around 270 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,480 the world. One of the things that's been a 271 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,440 big focus for acom is building that programme management 272 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,760 business line and delivering, we call them delivery partner kind 273 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,760 of roles. So we often have clients who are 274 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,440 setting up big infrastructure projects and they identify that 275 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:33,240 they perhaps need support with specific expertise or skills or 276 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,280 experience that they themselves in a project environment, 277 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,200 perhaps don't want to hire full time because the project has got 278 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,400 a particular lifespan or has particular skills that are only 279 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,400 needed for a particular point in time. 280 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,200 And so Acom effectively offers a service as a delivery partner 281 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,000 where we will work alongside a client team to bring that 282 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,440 experience and expertise to support, you know, ultimate the 283 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,000 delivery of the project. So yeah, you mentioned I, I 284 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,520 worked for HS2 for around 10 years and I joined ACOM just 285 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,560 over a year ago. I'm currently based in Toronto 286 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,960 in Canada. So my family and I moved here at 287 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,240 the beginning of July and I came across as part of the programme 288 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,440 management team to support a transport project here in the 289 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,880 city which are developing and building a metro extension. 290 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,680 So I lead our deliberate partner team and we work very closely 291 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,120 with our client here and a number of different things on 292 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,800 the project, but ultimately to help them achieve a successful 293 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,520 delivery of that of that metro extension. 294 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,440 How did you end up in project management and could you give me 295 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,080 a brief overview of your career today? 296 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,040 Because like you say, well, the thing, the term is like a zigzag 297 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,120 career, but. Yeah, I think that's right. 298 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,440 Yeah, I think that's right. And then, yeah. 299 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,320 And as you say, like lots of people, I didn't really 300 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,160 necessarily start out in project management, but I was, you know, 301 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,880 I was drawn to it probably through roles that required 302 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,079 coordination, problem solving, stakeholder management, and 303 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,839 probably built some foundational skills that then, as I talked 304 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,119 about, were quite transferable into where's my career going? 305 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,280 What is it that I wanted to kind of pursue? 306 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,040 And project management was a great fit for lots of the things 307 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,119 that I've kind of done in my early career. 308 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,319 And I think one of the things that I realised I really loved 309 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:29,960 and continue to really love is bringing structure to complexity 310 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,680 and kind of driving outcomes and those deliverables. 311 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,600 How did you come across it? Was it someone that did you know 312 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,680 about project management? So I started my career in 313 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,760 largely administrative roles. I didn't go to university At 314 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,600 classic time. When you go to university, I did 315 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,400 do a degree later, but I didn't go to university. 316 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,600 I started working in administrative roles and I lived 317 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,560 in Dorset, which not to take away from Dorset, which is a 318 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,240 wonderful place when you're an adult and have children, but 319 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:02,080 didn't necessarily offer the career aspirations that I had in 320 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,040 mind. And so I decided to go 321 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,320 travelling. So instead of going to 322 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,480 university when I was 19, I packed up my bags. 323 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,480 I went to New Zealand for a year and when I came back I got a job 324 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,200 up working in agricultural college, which again was 325 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,800 wonderful, really fantastic. But I wanted to do something 326 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,840 else. So I I moved to London and took 327 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,040 a role at the BBC as a personal assistant effectively. 328 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,960 And I worked in a number of different roles at the BBC, 329 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,040 including as PA to what was then the head of BBC News, which was 330 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,480 a really cool job, but absolutely loved it. 331 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,720 But I was, I was always thinking I wanted to do something more 332 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,280 than that, those kind of administrative roles, and was 333 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,240 thinking where could I kind of gain those skills or kind of 334 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,760 branch out? And I took a job, applied for 335 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,080 and was successful in getting a job working for the Cabinet 336 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,640 Office, which was a really interesting time in politics 337 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,600 because we were in the coalition government between the Lib Dems 338 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,800 and the Conservatives. And they were championing a 339 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,800 policy at that time around devolving powers from central 340 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,320 government to local authorities. And I joined the team initially 341 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,360 in an administrative role and they had just come out of an 342 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:15,320 audit that told the team that they needed to do project 343 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,200 management. And the really fantastic, 344 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,680 inspirational woman that ran the team was like, right, Amy, 345 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,080 you're the project manager go. And I was like, oh, OK. 346 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:33,480 And I, I spent a huge amount of my personal time doing APM 347 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:38,440 courses and reading a lot about project management in, in the 348 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,800 evenings. And I spoke to lots of friends 349 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,080 and colleagues who worked at various consultancies and read 350 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,200 about techs and project plans and all the things that you need 351 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,760 to do. And, and effectively schooled 352 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,400 myself through support of the team and through training to do 353 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,280 this project management role. And was effectively a team of 354 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,880 one that put in place a number of different project management 355 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,720 kind of products and materials and ran this project for a 356 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,560 number of years in the Cabinet Office. 357 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,720 And for me, you know, there's been a number of different 358 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,080 formative times in my career, but that was a huge. 359 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,440 Kind of pivot moment, I guess for making that transition into 360 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,880 into project management and really kind of pushing myself to 361 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,600 learn and and kind of build the skills I guess. 362 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,760 And very much enabled by a fantastic and supportive leader 363 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,400 of that team who who gave me a lot of the support and guidance 364 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,080 that I needed to be able to do that I wanted. 365 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,480 To ask you about how professions changed over time since you've 366 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,840 worked in IT, but specifically it just was, I was just thinking 367 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,280 then as you were talking about, you know, HS2 and I think of 368 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,120 transport. And. 369 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,360 Construction as being very male dominated sectors and I wonder 370 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:57,120 if it's made any difference to you that you've that you're a 371 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:58,560 woman. Is that something that you've 372 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,400 been kind of conscious of in terms of career at work? 373 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,160 Is it been a negative? A positive hasn't made a blind 374 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,200 bit of difference and just wondered what your thoughts are, 375 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,520 if you're happy to share. You know about your experience 376 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,560 but also as a woman in a senior role, you can see what still 377 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,480 needs to change. But how do we make that change 378 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,680 happen? You absolutely not just in 379 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,400 transport. I think in big infrastructure 380 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,200 projects in all sectors, it still continues to be, you know, 381 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,920 predominantly male dominated. I think it is changing and I 382 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,760 think it is changing for the better. 383 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:39,440 But for sure I think that there are still kind of fewer women in 384 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,960 leadership positions. And although it's changing on 385 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,080 projects that I've worked at, even if the percentages were 386 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,480 quite high, by the time you reached kind of SLT exec and 387 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,360 certainly board level, those percentages had dwindled 388 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,800 somewhat. So, yeah, there is undoubtedly 389 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,320 more to do. I think, you know, for me 390 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,400 personally, I'm not sure that it's held me back. 391 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,080 I think I have always perhaps approached, you know, working 392 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,240 life as as an equal. I don't think I should be 393 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,720 treated any differently as a woman. 394 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,920 I don't think I should be treated worse or better and just 395 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,200 contribute. And as long as I'm being judged 396 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,680 on my output and the value that I'm bringing and the things that 397 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,760 I'm doing, then, you know, we carry on. 398 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:28,440 I think that said, I'm sure there's an element and I'm sure 399 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,600 there's an element, you know, probably I've needed to work in 400 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,680 some respects harder or I feel like I've needed to maybe work 401 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,200 harder, but that might be a personal thing to maybe achieve 402 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,520 the same things. But it is a real juggle with 403 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,840 family and a big job. I have a 2 year old and a four 404 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,200 year old. Our family, perhaps we have 405 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,120 slightly reverse roles. So my husband stopped working 406 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:59,000 when we had our now 4 year old. And he does a wonderful job in 407 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,240 juggling all the things that need to be juggled with, with 408 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,560 the kids, which means that I can, you know, continue to meet 409 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,240 all the commitments that I need to meet from a kind of work 410 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,200 perspective. But the juggle is still 411 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,600 nevertheless there. And I'm reminded, oh gosh, the 412 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,560 woman's name escapes me, but she's the, she's a very famous 413 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,720 producer of Bridgeton and Grey's Anatomy and doing a big speech, 414 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,880 you know, how do you do it all? And, and she kind of said, well, 415 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,680 you don't, you don't do it all. And if you're, if you're 416 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,360 succeeding at work, then you're probably not fulfilling all the 417 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:33,800 things that you need to do at home. 418 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,680 And if you're succeeding at home and you're probably not doing 419 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,320 all the things that you need to do at work. 420 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,160 And life's a kind of constant juggle of needing to kind of fit 421 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,720 what needs to be done on any which day or week or month. 422 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:50,000 And, you know, reality of that. I think in in existing, 423 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,280 interestingly, I talk about this sometimes in that, you know, 424 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,680 it's still quite unusual that my husband is a, you know, stay at 425 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,840 home dad or whatever the right terminology is. 426 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,920 And I think it's been very, very interesting watching and seeing 427 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:11,040 his experience of being a stay at home dad and that society is 428 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,800 not that set up for stay at home's dad. 429 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,520 So, you know, going to swimming lessons and they're not being 430 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,280 male changing rooms because both of them are being used by mums 431 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,400 because it's predominantly women that go or, you know, to 432 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,200 different groups and nobody's speaking or engaging. 433 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,960 Like there's lots of elements to it. 434 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:35,520 And I think women as well as women absolutely genuinely 435 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,480 looking for equality in the workplace, I think there is a 436 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,800 lot that we also can do as women to enable some of those things 437 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,280 to change, which help us in doing that too. 438 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,720 You know, and thinking more openly around how we're sharing 439 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,880 those responsibilities, how we're continuing to kind of 440 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,080 normalise those things in the way in which we're doing them. 441 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,000 Because I think without that it's going to be very hard to 442 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,040 try and meet meet those equalities. 443 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,320 OK, thank you. What career lessons have you 444 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,400 learnt so far and what advice would you pass on to project 445 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,080 professionals? I think. 446 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,600 One big lesson that you again, a fantastic leader that I worked 447 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,920 with shared with me early on and it still stays with me now. 448 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,040 And I tell lots of people the same thing, which is that you 449 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,120 have time. And I think that often early 450 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:32,560 careers people and even mid career people perhaps are kind 451 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,960 of rushing to the I need to do my two years and then rush to 452 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,560 the next thing. And I need to do my two years 453 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,600 and then rush to the next thing. And I need to do my two years 454 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,440 and then rush to the next thing. And I, and I think you, one of 455 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,520 the big things for me was just the, you have time to experience 456 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,480 and maybe do that zigzag that we talked about and perhaps has 457 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,320 been a little bit of a feature of my career, which is that it 458 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,000 doesn't need to be linear. You've got time to maybe do a 459 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,800 slightly different role in a zigzag, experience what that has 460 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,360 to offer and then zigzag back and continue on that trajectory 461 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,600 because what you'll learn from doing that will be, you know, 462 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,640 fundamental or or kind of significant to the way that you 463 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,520 move forward. So I definitely think that's 464 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,160 factor. The other thing I'll say is that 465 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,120 build strong relationships. Everything in the way in which I 466 00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:23,400 try and do things in the way in which I think projects, you 467 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,040 know, operate successfully is on the basis of strong 468 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,280 relationships and building that, you know, trust, building a 469 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,400 network frankly as well. It's a really small world, so 470 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,160 you have everything is based on building good relationships, 471 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,680 maintaining good relationships, and you move around different 472 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,960 projects and you come across a lot of the same people. 473 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,400 And I think there's been a big factor for me I think is really 474 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,480 investing in people and really investing in those relationships 475 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,320 in terms of advice. So apart from the things that 476 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,560 I've said, I think I guess a big part is then focusing on 477 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,160 outcomes, not just outputs. So yeah, you can do a great 478 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,880 task, but what is it ultimately contributing to? 479 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,440 What are you trying to drive for in delivering that particular 480 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,800 task? And I guess the the last thing 481 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,680 will be, you know, embrace change. 482 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,000 Change is the only thing that remains constant in a project 483 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,800 management profession. And I think if it's it's, it's 484 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,040 difficult for people to continually manage change. 485 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,320 We hear that a lot. But actually in projects, the 486 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,720 people who are the most successful of those who can bend 487 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,000 and adapt and shift and move with the change, accepting that 488 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,720 change is not something to be frightened of in a project. 489 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,640 It is just what happens in projects. 490 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,760 You get something coming in field, it changes the 491 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,240 requirements, the stakeholder engagement changes the, you 492 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,160 know, the goal posters change, the dates move, whatever it 493 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,040 might be. The only thing that is constant 494 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,800 is change and, and kind of getting more comfortable with 495 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,720 that and building the skills to adapt to that. 496 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,720 I think is a, is a is a key thing. 497 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,000 Is that something that comes naturally to you? 498 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840 Have you always sight change or or has it been hard to? 499 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,960 I guess it's like accepting that you don't have control over 500 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,760 everything, which can be hard if you love organisation and 501 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,840 putting structure and processes in place. 502 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,800 I can see that, but I think the trick is pivoting quickly enough 503 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,000 to build the structure around the organisation, around the new 504 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,040 world. I think recognising that at the 505 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,160 beginning it won't ever be the same as you go through, but it 506 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,480 doesn't for me anyway, I don't think it means that you've you 507 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,840 lose some of that structure. I think it's more about how 508 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,920 quickly you can pivot, read the situation, understand what the 509 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,280 kind of changing brief is and then rebuild that kind of 510 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,080 structure and process and logical way through to then get 511 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,640 to the new outcome or the new goal or the new kind of targets 512 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,800 ahead of you. So for me I think I can do both 513 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,680 but. Yeah, and it's part of being a 514 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,800 leader like that and being able to pivot and change mean that 515 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,840 you have to be a strong decision maker. 516 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,520 So I've interviewed people in the past about how they make 517 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,120 decisions and somebody who impressed me, nice was like, you 518 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,520 just got to make a decision. And if you recognise quickly 519 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,440 it's a wrong decision, you can then move. 520 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,000 It's OK. Like you can't do that too many 521 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,320 times. You've still got to seem 522 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,360 competent and authoritative, but it's better. 523 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,800 What's yours take on decision making? 524 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,840 I, I absolutely would agree with the person you're talking to. 525 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,240 I sort of use this phrase sort of fail fast. 526 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,640 So, you know, make the decision, fail fast, learn from it, and 527 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,800 then kind of move forward. I definitely think there's an 528 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,080 element of that. Interestingly, yes, make the 529 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,400 decisions quickly, but I also think that, you know, the the 530 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,200 hardest thing about working in a changing environment is bringing 531 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,680 everybody with you as a leader on that change. 532 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,440 And so then perhaps not just about the decision making, but 533 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,640 that clarity point we talked around earlier, which is around, 534 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,800 you know, clarity and communication, clarity and kind 535 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,920 of or continuously communicating with the team and helping them 536 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,040 understand the change, helping them understand the new 537 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,440 direction and the way that, you know, we can move forward. 538 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,640 I think that probably for me, from a leadership perspective, 539 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,760 is one of the hardest things. I'm conscious of time, so just 540 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,600 to finish up, I just wanted to ask you whether there were any 541 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,680 leadership lessons that you'd want to pass on to listeners 542 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,480 that they could put into practise? 543 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,640 Probably perhaps people who are early on in their career or mid 544 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,160 career who think they're aspiring to get to sort of, you 545 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,240 know, higher up the project management tree. 546 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,040 Is there anything you'd like to pass on that's worked well for 547 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,360 you or you've admired in others? You particularly for those 548 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880 people who are perhaps early careers, you know, surround 549 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,080 yourself with people that you can learn from. 550 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,520 And I think, you know, you don't have to copy everything that you 551 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,600 see in other people, but being able to think about how you're 552 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,040 picking out things that people are doing really well or even 553 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,560 maybe not so well that you want to avoid. 554 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,280 I think it's for me, I think it was a was a big thing. 555 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,360 I think we touched on, you know, building strong relationships. 556 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,320 I think that's everything. And I think building your 557 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,520 ability to build strong relationships is, is a kind of 558 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,880 key skill and a key ability in project management. 559 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,520 And I guess then the last thing would be, you know, never 560 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,240 underestimate the power of clarity, whether it's in 561 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,560 communication, whether it's in your planning, whether it's in 562 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,680 your decision making. I think always trying to come 563 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,040 back to being really clear and transparent, I think is a is a 564 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,400 key, yeah, key factor for me. How do you learn to become 565 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,000 clearer? Do you do you get, is that the 566 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,200 sort of thing where you ask your colleagues who really brave and 567 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,000 so like, do you have a 360 appraisal and how, how can I be 568 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,040 more clear in communicating? Because that's quite tough, 569 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,000 isn't it? I think it is tough, but I think 570 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,560 that I think it is a skill that can be learned. 571 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,680 And I think it's just, it's both in the way in which you 572 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,160 communicate, but the way in which you write. 573 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,480 I always remember somebody saying to me, tell me what I 574 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,080 need to know, not what you know. And I guess there's something in 575 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,680 my mind where I'm thinking, OK, well how do I break down into 576 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,520 like 3 bullet points, the message that I need to get 577 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400 across or the decision that I'm looking for from somebody else? 578 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,320 That means that we can get to that decision most effectively. 579 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,240 And I think that's taken practise and experience and 580 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,480 crafting to learn how to write in a particular way or how to 581 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,600 present something in a particular way. 582 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,960 I don't think it's something that you can just do. 583 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,360 I think it's, you know, repeatedly presenting to 584 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,080 different audiences or repeatedly kind of writing 585 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,160 papers and then working out. Well, that didn't quite go as I 586 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,800 intended. And, you know, or I've presented 587 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,280 something that I thought was really clear. 588 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,920 And then you get 50 questions about it and you think, well, 589 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,600 that wasn't clear, was it? Because I've had to now explain 590 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,960 the slide for the last 15 minutes. 591 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,360 And so then when you go around doing it next time, think, OK, 592 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,760 well, what would be a better way of laying that out? 593 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,480 And definitely asking colleagues. 594 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,360 I don't think it's something you can do on your own. 595 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,440 I, I definitely ask other people and say I'm trying to do X or Y, 596 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,000 you know, have you got some great examples of where you 597 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,000 might have done that in a different project? 598 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,560 So within our network, we can do that a lot or so. 599 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,040 Yeah. On on within your own team, then 600 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,440 ask people for feedback. But equally, you know, if if you 601 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,480 read the room and you go and do something back to that fail 602 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,920 fast. OK, well that didn't work. 603 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,560 Let's go back and think about how we could could do that 604 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,400 better for next time. OK, brilliant. 605 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,880 That's bringing away to under our podcast. 606 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,160 It just leaves me to say thank you so much for your time. 607 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,400 It's been brilliant speaking to you learned a lot. 608 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,200 I really. Appreciate it's been a real 609 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,680 privilege to be part of it. Thank you so much for inviting 610 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,240 me. Thanks again, Tammy, for joining 611 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,680 us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. 612 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,680 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and 613 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,800 review us wherever you get your podcasts. 614 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,880 We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 615 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:17,080 suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 616 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,520 Spotify users can also send us feedback directly within the 617 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,440 Spotify app. This podcast has been brought to 618 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,400 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 619 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,639 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.