Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma Devitra and I'm
the editor. Of project.
APM's Quarterly Journal and your host in this podcast I'm
speaking to Emma. Carol Walsh, Director of
Customer Programmes at Aqua Consultants and Deputy Chair of
APM's Built Environment Interest Network, is also an outgoing
APM. Board Trustee.
I asked Emma for her top tips on how to be an effective project
influencer and why it really matters to hone your influencing
skills. Also, I wanted to find out what
it's like to step up to being a board trustee and the valuable
professional and career experience it brings.
Listen on to find out more in a wide-ranging chat that covers
everything from. Transferable project skills.
To how to influence as a young professional.
So, Emma, thank you so much for finding the time to talk to us.
Thank you for having me. I wanted to.
Begin by asking you how long you've served as an APM Board
trustee. What changes?
Have you ever seen during your tenure and actually what did you
hope to achieve and and have you have you achieved those things?
A tenure on on the board is three years, it's a three-year
term. So I'm coming to the close of
that. Personally, I have overseen the
that the implementation of the new APM website because I took
on the role as a board champion for that key initiative.
So that was, that was a great success.
Uh, when that was rolled out, you know, it's really great to
be in a position where I could offer my support and guidance to
the team at the APM running the project for, and it was done for
the AP Ms 50th year. When I took on the trustee
position, I sort of went back to sort of try and remind myself
what I, I put out there in hoping that people would vote
for me. And it was that I, I did want to
have that opportunity to influence the direction APM was
going and to ensure that it was fit for purpose going forward
into the future. So was that the main reason you
wanted to go for this? Definitely, I'm really
passionate that the APM continues to represent its
members and is is forward-looking and future
looking to see what the trends are and the way their industries
are going. I think the other thing that
really came out for me is I wanted to see it broaden over.
I think it's traditional background, if you look at it as
predominantly come from the engineering and the construction
sectors and project management. A lot of people do project
management without even thinking about it.
So they're quite often called the accidental project manager.
But it happens across all sectors that, you know, legal
has it definitely in the charitable sector as well.
There's loads of sectors that we just weren't covering in enough
depth in my view. So that's why I was really
interested enough to want to take part in that APM board.
I feel it's quite an exciting time for the project profession
because it seems to be busting out those traditional sectors
where where it's obviously been around for a very long time.
And like you mentioned, moving into new sectors, but also a
sense that you must be interested in bringing in the
younger generations of project professionals as well.
Definitely, definitely. So I've I've been really
fortunate in my career. So I've always been engaged with
the project management apprenticeship programme.
That part of my time was at Rolls Royce and very much
involved in the recruitment of people into that, that that
particular scheme. And then I set up the same
scheme at the MTC when I went to the manufacturing technology
Centre. I just think it's a fabulous way
of engaging the younger generation and we've got a
really good board member who is really passionate as well about
bringing on the the younger generation and getting them more
involved in the board. So really helped, you know,
wanting to support her in, in, in doing that development.
So that was really key for me, definitely.
What do you think younger project professionals want from
the profession and their careers that perhaps older, more
experienced project professionals don't do or don't
think about? How do they do things
differently? I would say the Apms relevant to
them in the context that we can provide information, guidance,
mentoring, coaching as to the different career paths you can
take with project management, helping them understand that
their skills are transferable, that you're not going to be
stuck in one industry. I think as a generation they are
definitely more amenable to moving from one company to the
other. From when I started, you sort of
started a company and you stayed there for life.
I think it's sort of changed a lot since I started my career in
project management. So I think that's something that
the APM is really relevant with. It's that guidance, that
mentoring, that coaching. And also you say about moving
within organisations, but moving across sectors as well.
Absolutely. Definitely.
Which which you've done, we'll talk about that later, but that
was something the golden thread pointed out as well, because
we're going to need so many more project professionals in the
future that there's going to be this great demand and.
What it says it? Seems to me that younger people
are up for make taking that risk and jumping across sectors and
seeing that that's the beauty of the career, that they can take
their skills wherever I. Think it is and APMAPM itself
are moving forwards. You know, they are looking at
the modern social platforms, I mean such as podcasts such as
TikTok, you know, they are appearing on those to more
engage with the the younger generation.
They've certainly done a lot of work revamping the volunteering
space to encourage the new interest networks and reforming
the branches to encourage new people to join.
And we are seeing a lot more of the younger generation entering
the volunteering piece as well, because it's volunteering is a
great opportunity to network. It's a great opportunity to meet
like minded individuals and it's a great opportunity to learn.
I mean, part of me personally, I, I still mentor and I love
doing the mentoring because I learn just as much from the
mentee, hopefully as a mentee learns from me and it keeps me
relevant and grounded. And I think that's really
important. What have you learnt from
mentoring younger people about the way they see the world or
the way they like to do things? It's interesting to hear the
challenges they face that in some instances it hasn't really
changed from maybe the challenges that I faced early on
in my career. So getting your voice heard,
being able to do that, influencing when you're not at
that level of position that you know, automatically brings a
certain level of influence you can have without being able to
influence, if you see what I mean.
Sort of authority, authority. Thank you.
That's the right word. Before you go on, what are your
tips for someone who's early on in their career and wants to
have their voice heard? My guidance is always the same
is that if you're going into a meeting is you need to go in
with what are the 3-4 key bullets, key messages that you
actually want to get over and have those really clear and
tested before you go in and the other pieces.
I always say that actually, do you understand who you're trying
to influence in that meeting and how they operate?
So do you understand how they like that message to be given to
them? So are they an individual that
likes really clear, concise? So for example, I am very much
of a person that says if you can give me a picture over words
that that works for me every single time.
But there are others that I would want chapter and verse,
might want a report upfront ahead of the meeting so they
have time to digest it and think about it before coming into that
session. So really get to know who your
stakeholders are, who the key decision maker is going to be
and how is it they like to receive that information.
Because actually, if you can get them and engage them ahead of
the meeting and present it in that way that they like, the
chances are you're going to actually have a much better
outcome. What have you enjoyed about
being on the board? How did you find the experience?
Was it, was it how you expected, was it different?
And what skills have you learnt that you need to have to be a
good kind of board member or or trustee?
Firstly, all I can say is I've absolutely loved working on the
board. I work with a brilliant group of
people. They've got really diverse
working backgrounds as well. So it's really sort of
interesting to hear the value that they bring and, and that
diversity that and, and I think that diversity is really
important and it's diversity of working background that I want
to stress here and it prevents groupthink, which I think is
fantastic. So that's the last thing you
need is, is, is groupthink going on.
But we do work to a common sense, common set of principles
and we are guided very much by the Charity Commission
guidelines, but we can bring very different viewpoints and
values to the board, which I think is really important.
And I guess you're getting an insight, aren't you, into other
people's worlds? Definitely, definitely.
And that that is is really, really interesting.
And for me, a real positive is I've got to work with the
leadership team from the APM. It's definitely opened my eyes
to the level of, of, of passion that they've got.
And they are desperate to ensure that APM succeeds.
And, and I think that's wonderful.
So, you know, it's really easy to look from the outside and
critique at any organisation. We're all very, you know, we're
all very capable of being critical, but actually when you
get to work with the teams and the people and you see how hard
they work and how dedicated they are, it's and the fact that I
think they offer a really great service to the project
management community. So that's been that's been a
real positive for me. What about the skills you need
to do the job well? To be a good trustee, so I would
say you need to have good listening skills, definitely
good listening skills. You need to have a level of
attention to detail as well because there's a lot of
information for you to take in. But don't be daunted by that
because you do get a really good induction onto the board.
You get in depth training on taking on the role of the
trustee. Mike Robinson, who's the company
secretary is totally supportive, answers any query no matter how
small it is. You also get appointed a trustee
buddy to sort of help you and sort of guide you on your way,
which is fantastic. And then you obviously get time
with the chair who currently is Miller and obviously with the
CEO Adam Bodison. So that's really good to have
that sort of one-on-one with those individuals as well.
But I think then back to the skill piece, you do need to be
able to challenge in a respectful way as well.
So you know you are there to hold APM to account.
So you do need to have that, that skill, definitely.
I have interviewed many senior women in business over my career
and sometimes, maybe often in the past and less often now, you
experience mansplaining or at very senior levels or being
ignored, or you raise a point and then a man raises the point
that you've just made and everyone listens and
congratulates him on a great point.
I'm not saying this happens all the time at all, but have you
ever been in that situation and how have you handled it or how
did you wish you'd handled? It so I have have a long enough
career where I have actually experienced.
So a really good example is pay where I I had my pay was
significantly less than my male counterparts.
How did you find that out? So hopefully the EU put out a
ruling at the time that said you had a right to see where your
salary was in comparison to your peers.
So I asked for that, and after about six weeks of trying to
tell me that I didn't need to see it, they finally gave it to
me and they showed me the bell curve and I was significantly
under the bottom of the bell curve.
How did you feel? Well, a bit of grieved, if I'm
honest. Yeah.
A. Bit shocked.
Yeah, a bit shocked. I'd have an explanation that
apparently because my peers were all engineers and I was a
project professional, even though we're all doing the same
job, that counted for more. So and then they decided against
that and then paid me appropriately, which was good.
So I have had that. If you suspect something like
that, then it pays to ask and find out, and there's no harming
asking. And then you should do something
about it. Yes, obviously it works out well
for you. I imagine they were probably
quite awkward or difficult conversations to have.
They are difficult conversations, but at the end of
the day, and and this is something I do catch all my
mentees, it said your career is down to you to a lot of extent.
You know, you can't sit there waiting to be noticed.
You have to put the effort in to do sell yourself and you do have
to do and it can be exhausting, but you've got to be able to.
So I'm always there saying, look, when you've when you've
done something and someone's given, you know, if they give
you some feedback that says it was a really good job that you
did there, save that, document it, get it in your evidence pack
because that's what you need to. You know, when you next have
your conversation about where your career is going with your
line manager, your one to one-on-one, you can then bring
all this stuff out and says, actually, I think I'm ready for
the next level because of, and here's all my evidence.
So you know, you've got to really it, it's down to you as
an individual to, to gather that evidence and to push yourself
forward. Definitely.
That is brilliant advice. That's such brilliant advice.
OK. Did you, did you want me to give
say what I think about mansplaining and.
I'd love you to tell yes. I'd love you to tell me about
mansplaining and. So, so when I'm in meetings and
say somebody has made a point, so let's call them Joe blogs,
for example, I will say, oh, I'd like to build on Joe's blogs
point. I think it's really effective
that he's made. But actually I think we should
take this this way. So if you start using that,
you're quite often start to see people mirror in the meetings
and then you'll get, Oh, Emma's, you know, I really like that
point that Emma's made. So just if you start bringing
that language in, quite often people will start mirroring it
in the meeting. So don't be afraid to do that.
Likewise, I have said in in meetings before I have brought
people to attention. Maybe it's because I'm so long
in the tooth now, but I just sort of say, you know, if
someone that if I've made a point and then someone else then
like 2 minutes later decides that they're going to make the
same point and I'll go. I'm so glad you agreed with what
I said. Thank you so much for backing me
up. You're not being rude, you're
not being aggressive. All you're just saying is
actually reminding people in the meeting that actually that came
from you. We're APM, the only chartered
membership organisation for the project profession.
When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
support you need to make an impact, delivering better
projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive
training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
society benefits. Is becoming a board trustee a
good way for underrepresented groups within a profession to
represent their views at a very senior level?
Definitely, I think it is and I think because you're all there
with the same same principles really, which is obviously it
hold APM to account, but also to develop APM and support.
I do think it is a a really good way of doing it.
So we've got one of our board members who is very young in
their career and they do, you know, they have, their voice is
absolutely listened to with equality across the board.
And I think that's great. And we've got others that have
neurodiversity as well. So again, it's, it's, it's great
that we've managed to sometimes adjust because we have some of
our meetings are face to face and some of them are online.
And it can be quite difficult to, I guess, do that
concentration online. And people, particularly with
some maybe neurodiversity as well, asking for those regular
breaks to be put in and accommodated.
And it's just, yeah, it's just great because it, it gets you as
an individual as well to see things from a different
perspective, which is always, always healthy.
I think it's great for for your career progression as well to
sort of because it shows that you're passionate about the
profession that you're in and you're willing to do more than
just your today job. And that will always be looked
unfavourably by employers, definitely.
How much of A time commitment is it?
Was it more than you expected? I think.
It was a bit more because you do need to be diligent in reading
through the board packs and the board packs can be quite meaty.
How many pages are we talking? About 150 usually.
And you know, you do need to read them, you do need to
question them. You you need to be prepared.
Some of them are for information only, which is to be noted, and
that's absolutely fine, but you can still query things.
Then there are others where we've actually got to make a
decision and vote. So again, you do need to be well
prepared for that. So it isn't just about attending
the meetings, it is about that preparation time as well.
So I think that needs to be really clear.
And obviously you need to ensure that your company or your own
private or your own personal time can definitely accommodate
that. And then, you know, you will be
absolutely encouraged to take on champion roles as and when
required. So as board champions, you know,
like I took on the website as I mentioned earlier.
So yeah, do think carefully about the time time.
Commitment to pick up on the topic we talked about earlier
around influencing. How do you use your influencing
skills to bring about positive change as a trustee?
I do feel that I am able to clearly articulate my views.
I strive to get across definitely what success would
look like and I always try and bring that into the
conversation. If I'm honest, being a trustee
is relatively easy to influence when you're there to ensure,
because you're, you're there to ensure the board, as the board
that you're supporting APM delivering its commitments.
You've been brought on to be listened to and for your view,
so you'd expect to be listened to and to be able to have the
same matters. What about if you're not in a
privileged position to be on a board?
What what kind of other tips would you have about being a a
capable influencer and and how important is that to the success
of a project? Any advice you'd pass on?
Honesty is, is always is, is just a key thing really, you
know, whoever you're trying to work with or whoever you're
trying to influence rather you, you've got to understand what
success looks like for them and, and back to the piece we've
already discussed around tailoring your messaging to suit
because obviously you, you want to show that actually what
you're going to do is going to help them achieve what they're
looking for. So their outcomes, whatever
their success measures are looking at how they again, back
to what is their preferred communication method.
So ensure, so you ensure that your message meets that and, and
just be genuine and yourself. Because you know, at the end of
the day, we, I can't remember is it's not 80% you get from body
language. People will read you like a
book. And if they don't think you're
being genuine and honest, the chances of you having any
influence in that space is pretty, pretty low.
Your career, you've switched sectors and it seems to me that
that's something that the profession wants to encourage
project professionals to do because there's demand
everywhere and project management is exploding in into
non traditional sectors. What was it like for you jumping
from, correct me if I'm wrong, from manufacturing into the
water industry, which is where you are now?
What? What?
Why did you decide to make the jump and how easy was it to
switch sectors? I had a career of nearly 30
years in Rolls Royce, which was aerospace and manufacturing.
It was quite daunting leaving a company after that length of
time, but I went into the manufacturing technology centre.
So again, sort of understanding my manufacturing knowledge was
fine, I could carry that across. But actually it made me realise
even more that it was my project management skills.
They, they don't change. You might use a different
project management system or it might be a, a different planning
tool, but on the whole, you're predominantly, your skills are
exactly the same from from what one sector to another.
So it's learning the language of the sector.
You would do that for me anyway. You would do that no matter what
job you were going to, you would do the research to learn about
the sector, about the company you were going to.
So it's about that preparedness. Again, if you're a project
manager, you'd know that actually for projects to
succeed, it's all in the planning element, doing as much
of planning and upsight work that you can do as possible.
And that's exactly the same in your career.
So if you're going to make that jump, just make the time to go
and read round the subject, you know, So going from
manufacturing to the water sector, it was just
understanding what the language is, learning that the acronyms
that you thought you knew acronyms to suddenly have
different meanings to them within the different sector.
But I've really loved change in the respect that even I was a
Rolls Royce for 30 years. I moved around from like the
energy business to the aerospace, the submarines.
So I've always loved that challenge of learning, but
taking your core skills and project management with you.
So that's why I think it's just the best profession ever because
it enables you to move around all of the sectors.
Do you think project professionals need to be more
confident about the transferability of their skills?
I think people feel a bit stuck in their kind of siloed sector.
Do you think there needs to be a greater confidence or ambition
that you that it's fine, you will have to be, You're not
starting out from scratch again, but you are working within a new
in a completely new sector that you like.
You say you have to learn the language and that can maybe put
people off. Will be a bit daunting.
It can be daunting and I think this definitely will hold some
people back thinking, well, I've got no 20-30 years maybe in the
rail industry. Could I move into something like
the water industry? And the, and the answer is, is
definitely yes. I've noticed as well that in
it's sometimes sectors of we have, but we want some more like
sort of 10 years experience in this sector and you're like, but
why tell me why or because they'll understand language that
have worked with the site, the supply chain etcetera.
But if you take someone from the rail industry, they
predominantly work down a very almost like the same parallels.
So they're working with the same contractual terms, they're
working with the same types of supply as in the contacts of the
contractors etcetera. So it's just a case of got a new
use the new language and actually where it's so
competitive, it's so it's the demand is so much.
You can't just keep getting people from the water sector.
You need to start bringing people across from what I'd say
almost like our parallel sectors and pulling them in.
And actually when you know, we've had that conversation and
we've managed to do that, they've been really appreciative
of it and actually, Oh yes, OK, that's that works really well.
So I think employers as well need to wake up to the fact that
actually taking someone from comparable or sort of parallel
sectors is really valuable because they they are really
good skills and they just transfer across.
So I think it works both ways. As an employee, you've got to
have the coach to make that jump, but do your research.
And as an employer, you need to have the coach to actually pull
people across and actually you will get you will grow your
talent pool, which is what you need just.
Wanted to give you an opportunity to pass on any
career or project lessons. Definitely keep up to date with
current thinking. User organisations such as APM
got great networking events, got subject webinars, loads of
project management articles out on the web as well.
So absolutely keep up to date with current thinking.
And and in Project magazine just.
Oh, yeah. Sorry.
Yes, yes, yeah, definitely. But in short, you've got to keep
abreast of what's going on in the profession because you've
got to pick up and learn the new ways of working and thinking and
any language shifts that are going on as well.
So just keep up to date. I mean you should be doing it
anyway. If you're a member of APM, it is
incumbent on you to do your continued professional
development and and this is a really key way of of doing that.
It's been a pleasure talking to you.
Thanks for sharing your insights not only into your crib but also
being a a trustee. Any last things you wanted to
add? Even if you've had sort of, oh,
might quite fancy being a trustee, really just put
yourself out there. Go for it.
It's just such a fantastic opportunity.
It's so insightful looking at how APM are running, how you can
help guide them. I just can't.
I can't express enough how much people should just have a go.
It's just great. Well, that's the perfect way to
end the podcast, I think. It just leaves me to say thank
you again and it's been an absolute pleasure talking to
you. Thank you, Emma.
Thanks again to Emma for joining us and to you for listening to
the APM Podcast. APM members who would like to
serve as a trustee have until 5:00 PM on Wednesday, the 4th of
September to nominate themselves.
This year's ballot will see three new trustees elected.
For more information, see the link in the episode.
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