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Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the chartered body for 

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the project profession. 
My name is Emma Devitra and I'm 

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the editor. 
Of project. 

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APM's Quarterly Journal and your
host in this podcast I'm 

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speaking to Emma. 
Carol Walsh, Director of 

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Customer Programmes at Aqua 
Consultants and Deputy Chair of 

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APM's Built Environment Interest
Network, is also an outgoing 

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APM. 
Board Trustee. 

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I asked Emma for her top tips on
how to be an effective project 

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influencer and why it really 
matters to hone your influencing

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skills. 
Also, I wanted to find out what 

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it's like to step up to being a 
board trustee and the valuable 

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professional and career 
experience it brings. 

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Listen on to find out more in a 
wide-ranging chat that covers 

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everything from. 
Transferable project skills. 

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To how to influence as a young 
professional. 

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So, Emma, thank you so much for 
finding the time to talk to us. 

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Thank you for having me. 
I wanted to. 

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Begin by asking you how long 
you've served as an APM Board 

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trustee. 
What changes? 

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Have you ever seen during your 
tenure and actually what did you

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hope to achieve and and have you
have you achieved those things? 

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A tenure on on the board is 
three years, it's a three-year 

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term. 
So I'm coming to the close of 

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that. 
Personally, I have overseen the 

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that the implementation of the 
new APM website because I took 

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on the role as a board champion 
for that key initiative. 

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So that was, that was a great 
success. 

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Uh, when that was rolled out, 
you know, it's really great to 

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be in a position where I could 
offer my support and guidance to

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the team at the APM running the 
project for, and it was done for

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the AP Ms 50th year. 
When I took on the trustee 

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position, I sort of went back to
sort of try and remind myself 

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what I, I put out there in 
hoping that people would vote 

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for me. 
And it was that I, I did want to

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have that opportunity to 
influence the direction APM was 

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going and to ensure that it was 
fit for purpose going forward 

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into the future. 
So was that the main reason you 

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wanted to go for this? 
Definitely, I'm really 

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passionate that the APM 
continues to represent its 

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members and is is 
forward-looking and future 

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looking to see what the trends 
are and the way their industries

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are going. 
I think the other thing that 

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really came out for me is I 
wanted to see it broaden over. 

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I think it's traditional 
background, if you look at it as

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predominantly come from the 
engineering and the construction

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sectors and project management. 
A lot of people do project 

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management without even thinking
about it. 

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So they're quite often called 
the accidental project manager. 

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But it happens across all 
sectors that, you know, legal 

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has it definitely in the 
charitable sector as well. 

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There's loads of sectors that we
just weren't covering in enough 

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depth in my view. 
So that's why I was really 

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interested enough to want to 
take part in that APM board. 

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I feel it's quite an exciting 
time for the project profession 

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because it seems to be busting 
out those traditional sectors 

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where where it's obviously been 
around for a very long time. 

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And like you mentioned, moving 
into new sectors, but also a 

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sense that you must be 
interested in bringing in the 

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younger generations of project 
professionals as well. 

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Definitely, definitely. 
So I've I've been really 

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fortunate in my career. 
So I've always been engaged with

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the project management 
apprenticeship programme. 

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That part of my time was at 
Rolls Royce and very much 

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involved in the recruitment of 
people into that, that that 

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particular scheme. 
And then I set up the same 

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scheme at the MTC when I went to
the manufacturing technology 

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Centre. 
I just think it's a fabulous way

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of engaging the younger 
generation and we've got a 

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really good board member who is 
really passionate as well about 

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bringing on the the younger 
generation and getting them more

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involved in the board. 
So really helped, you know, 

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wanting to support her in, in, 
in doing that development. 

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So that was really key for me, 
definitely. 

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What do you think younger 
project professionals want from 

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the profession and their careers
that perhaps older, more 

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experienced project 
professionals don't do or don't 

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think about? 
How do they do things 

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differently? 
I would say the Apms relevant to

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them in the context that we can 
provide information, guidance, 

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mentoring, coaching as to the 
different career paths you can 

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take with project management, 
helping them understand that 

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their skills are transferable, 
that you're not going to be 

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stuck in one industry. 
I think as a generation they are

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definitely more amenable to 
moving from one company to the 

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other. 
From when I started, you sort of

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started a company and you stayed
there for life. 

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I think it's sort of changed a 
lot since I started my career in

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project management. 
So I think that's something that

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the APM is really relevant with.
It's that guidance, that 

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mentoring, that coaching. 
And also you say about moving 

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within organisations, but moving
across sectors as well. 

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Absolutely. 
Definitely. 

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Which which you've done, we'll 
talk about that later, but that 

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was something the golden thread 
pointed out as well, because 

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we're going to need so many more
project professionals in the 

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future that there's going to be 
this great demand and. 

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What it says it? 
Seems to me that younger people 

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are up for make taking that risk
and jumping across sectors and 

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seeing that that's the beauty of
the career, that they can take 

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their skills wherever I. 
Think it is and APMAPM itself 

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are moving forwards. 
You know, they are looking at 

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the modern social platforms, I 
mean such as podcasts such as 

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TikTok, you know, they are 
appearing on those to more 

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engage with the the younger 
generation. 

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They've certainly done a lot of 
work revamping the volunteering 

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space to encourage the new 
interest networks and reforming 

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the branches to encourage new 
people to join. 

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And we are seeing a lot more of 
the younger generation entering 

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the volunteering piece as well, 
because it's volunteering is a 

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great opportunity to network. 
It's a great opportunity to meet

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like minded individuals and it's
a great opportunity to learn. 

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I mean, part of me personally, 
I, I still mentor and I love 

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doing the mentoring because I 
learn just as much from the 

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mentee, hopefully as a mentee 
learns from me and it keeps me 

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relevant and grounded. 
And I think that's really 

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important. 
What have you learnt from 

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mentoring younger people about 
the way they see the world or 

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the way they like to do things? 
It's interesting to hear the 

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challenges they face that in 
some instances it hasn't really 

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changed from maybe the 
challenges that I faced early on

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in my career. 
So getting your voice heard, 

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being able to do that, 
influencing when you're not at 

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that level of position that you 
know, automatically brings a 

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certain level of influence you 
can have without being able to 

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influence, if you see what I 
mean. 

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Sort of authority, authority. 
Thank you. 

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That's the right word. 
Before you go on, what are your 

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tips for someone who's early on 
in their career and wants to 

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have their voice heard? 
My guidance is always the same 

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is that if you're going into a 
meeting is you need to go in 

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with what are the 3-4 key 
bullets, key messages that you 

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actually want to get over and 
have those really clear and 

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tested before you go in and the 
other pieces. 

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I always say that actually, do 
you understand who you're trying

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to influence in that meeting and
how they operate? 

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So do you understand how they 
like that message to be given to

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them? 
So are they an individual that 

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likes really clear, concise? 
So for example, I am very much 

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of a person that says if you can
give me a picture over words 

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that that works for me every 
single time. 

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But there are others that I 
would want chapter and verse, 

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might want a report upfront 
ahead of the meeting so they 

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have time to digest it and think
about it before coming into that

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session. 
So really get to know who your 

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stakeholders are, who the key 
decision maker is going to be 

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and how is it they like to 
receive that information. 

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Because actually, if you can get
them and engage them ahead of 

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the meeting and present it in 
that way that they like, the 

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chances are you're going to 
actually have a much better 

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outcome. 
What have you enjoyed about 

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being on the board? 
How did you find the experience?

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Was it, was it how you expected,
was it different? 

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And what skills have you learnt 
that you need to have to be a 

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good kind of board member or or 
trustee? 

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Firstly, all I can say is I've 
absolutely loved working on the 

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board. 
I work with a brilliant group of

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people. 
They've got really diverse 

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working backgrounds as well. 
So it's really sort of 

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interesting to hear the value 
that they bring and, and that 

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diversity that and, and I think 
that diversity is really 

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important and it's diversity of 
working background that I want 

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to stress here and it prevents 
groupthink, which I think is 

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fantastic. 
So that's the last thing you 

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need is, is, is groupthink going
on. 

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But we do work to a common 
sense, common set of principles 

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and we are guided very much by 
the Charity Commission 

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guidelines, but we can bring 
very different viewpoints and 

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values to the board, which I 
think is really important. 

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And I guess you're getting an 
insight, aren't you, into other 

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people's worlds? 
Definitely, definitely. 

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And that that is is really, 
really interesting. 

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And for me, a real positive is 
I've got to work with the 

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leadership team from the APM. 
It's definitely opened my eyes 

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to the level of, of, of passion 
that they've got. 

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And they are desperate to ensure
that APM succeeds. 

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And, and I think that's 
wonderful. 

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So, you know, it's really easy 
to look from the outside and 

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critique at any organisation. 
We're all very, you know, we're 

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all very capable of being 
critical, but actually when you 

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get to work with the teams and 
the people and you see how hard 

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they work and how dedicated they
are, it's and the fact that I 

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think they offer a really great 
service to the project 

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management community. 
So that's been that's been a 

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real positive for me. 
What about the skills you need 

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to do the job well? 
To be a good trustee, so I would

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say you need to have good 
listening skills, definitely 

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good listening skills. 
You need to have a level of 

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attention to detail as well 
because there's a lot of 

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information for you to take in. 
But don't be daunted by that 

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because you do get a really good
induction onto the board. 

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You get in depth training on 
taking on the role of the 

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trustee. 
Mike Robinson, who's the company

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secretary is totally supportive,
answers any query no matter how 

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small it is. 
You also get appointed a trustee

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buddy to sort of help you and 
sort of guide you on your way, 

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which is fantastic. 
And then you obviously get time 

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with the chair who currently is 
Miller and obviously with the 

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CEO Adam Bodison. 
So that's really good to have 

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that sort of one-on-one with 
those individuals as well. 

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But I think then back to the 
skill piece, you do need to be 

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able to challenge in a 
respectful way as well. 

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So you know you are there to 
hold APM to account. 

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So you do need to have that, 
that skill, definitely. 

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I have interviewed many senior 
women in business over my career

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and sometimes, maybe often in 
the past and less often now, you

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experience mansplaining or at 
very senior levels or being 

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ignored, or you raise a point 
and then a man raises the point 

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that you've just made and 
everyone listens and 

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congratulates him on a great 
point. 

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I'm not saying this happens all 
the time at all, but have you 

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ever been in that situation and 
how have you handled it or how 

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did you wish you'd handled? 
It so I have have a long enough 

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career where I have actually 
experienced. 

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So a really good example is pay 
where I I had my pay was 

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significantly less than my male 
counterparts. 

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How did you find that out? 
So hopefully the EU put out a 

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ruling at the time that said you
had a right to see where your 

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salary was in comparison to your
peers. 

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So I asked for that, and after 
about six weeks of trying to 

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tell me that I didn't need to 
see it, they finally gave it to 

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me and they showed me the bell 
curve and I was significantly 

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under the bottom of the bell 
curve. 

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How did you feel? 
Well, a bit of grieved, if I'm 

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honest. 
Yeah. 

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A. 
Bit shocked. 

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Yeah, a bit shocked. 
I'd have an explanation that 

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apparently because my peers were
all engineers and I was a 

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00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:11,800
project professional, even 
though we're all doing the same 

230
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,720
job, that counted for more. 
So and then they decided against

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00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,120
that and then paid me 
appropriately, which was good. 

232
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,360
So I have had that. 
If you suspect something like 

233
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,120
that, then it pays to ask and 
find out, and there's no harming

234
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,560
asking. 
And then you should do something

235
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,280
about it. 
Yes, obviously it works out well

236
00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:34,640
for you. 
I imagine they were probably 

237
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,640
quite awkward or difficult 
conversations to have. 

238
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,800
They are difficult 
conversations, but at the end of

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00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,560
the day, and and this is 
something I do catch all my 

240
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:48,720
mentees, it said your career is 
down to you to a lot of extent. 

241
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,360
You know, you can't sit there 
waiting to be noticed. 

242
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:58,280
You have to put the effort in to
do sell yourself and you do have

243
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,640
to do and it can be exhausting, 
but you've got to be able to. 

244
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,400
So I'm always there saying, 
look, when you've when you've 

245
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,360
done something and someone's 
given, you know, if they give 

246
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,400
you some feedback that says it 
was a really good job that you 

247
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,760
did there, save that, document 
it, get it in your evidence pack

248
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,080
because that's what you need to.
You know, when you next have 

249
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,200
your conversation about where 
your career is going with your 

250
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,360
line manager, your one to 
one-on-one, you can then bring 

251
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,640
all this stuff out and says, 
actually, I think I'm ready for 

252
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,360
the next level because of, and 
here's all my evidence. 

253
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,400
So you know, you've got to 
really it, it's down to you as 

254
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,200
an individual to, to gather that
evidence and to push yourself 

255
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,320
forward. 
Definitely. 

256
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,440
That is brilliant advice. 
That's such brilliant advice. 

257
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,880
OK. 
Did you, did you want me to give

258
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,640
say what I think about 
mansplaining and. 

259
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,120
I'd love you to tell yes. 
I'd love you to tell me about 

260
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:51,720
mansplaining and. 
So, so when I'm in meetings and 

261
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,160
say somebody has made a point, 
so let's call them Joe blogs, 

262
00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:01,000
for example, I will say, oh, I'd
like to build on Joe's blogs 

263
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,320
point. 
I think it's really effective 

264
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:03,640
that he's made. 
But actually I think we should 

265
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,440
take this this way. 
So if you start using that, 

266
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,120
you're quite often start to see 
people mirror in the meetings 

267
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,320
and then you'll get, Oh, Emma's,
you know, I really like that 

268
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,080
point that Emma's made. 
So just if you start bringing 

269
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,280
that language in, quite often 
people will start mirroring it 

270
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,960
in the meeting. 
So don't be afraid to do that. 

271
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,840
Likewise, I have said in in 
meetings before I have brought 

272
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,160
people to attention. 
Maybe it's because I'm so long 

273
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,840
in the tooth now, but I just 
sort of say, you know, if 

274
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,840
someone that if I've made a 
point and then someone else then

275
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,120
like 2 minutes later decides 
that they're going to make the 

276
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,200
same point and I'll go. 
I'm so glad you agreed with what

277
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,080
I said. 
Thank you so much for backing me

278
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,160
up. 
You're not being rude, you're 

279
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,600
not being aggressive. 
All you're just saying is 

280
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,240
actually reminding people in the
meeting that actually that came 

281
00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:04,880
from you. 
We're APM, the only chartered 

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00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,480
membership organisation for the 
project profession. 

283
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,160
When you become an APM member, 
you'll receive the resources and

284
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,920
support you need to make an 
impact, delivering better 

285
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,560
projects with better outcomes. 
Plus, you'll access exclusive 

286
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,880
training and benefits to support
your ongoing career development.

287
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,440
Find out how we can help you 
reach your potential by visiting

288
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,800
apm.org.uk. 
Because when projects succeed, 

289
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:34,600
society benefits. 
Is becoming a board trustee a 

290
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,240
good way for underrepresented 
groups within a profession to 

291
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,240
represent their views at a very 
senior level? 

292
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,960
Definitely, I think it is and I 
think because you're all there 

293
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,000
with the same same principles 
really, which is obviously it 

294
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:53,400
hold APM to account, but also to
develop APM and support. 

295
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,720
I do think it is a a really good
way of doing it. 

296
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,960
So we've got one of our board 
members who is very young in 

297
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,240
their career and they do, you 
know, they have, their voice is 

298
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,599
absolutely listened to with 
equality across the board. 

299
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,119
And I think that's great. 
And we've got others that have 

300
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:18,359
neurodiversity as well. 
So again, it's, it's, it's great

301
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,400
that we've managed to sometimes 
adjust because we have some of 

302
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,240
our meetings are face to face 
and some of them are online. 

303
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,800
And it can be quite difficult 
to, I guess, do that 

304
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,080
concentration online. 
And people, particularly with 

305
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,400
some maybe neurodiversity as 
well, asking for those regular 

306
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,720
breaks to be put in and 
accommodated. 

307
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,320
And it's just, yeah, it's just 
great because it, it gets you as

308
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,880
an individual as well to see 
things from a different 

309
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,240
perspective, which is always, 
always healthy. 

310
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,320
I think it's great for for your 
career progression as well to 

311
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,440
sort of because it shows that 
you're passionate about the 

312
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,600
profession that you're in and 
you're willing to do more than 

313
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,600
just your today job. 
And that will always be looked 

314
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,920
unfavourably by employers, 
definitely. 

315
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,120
How much of A time commitment is
it? 

316
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,720
Was it more than you expected? 
I think. 

317
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,800
It was a bit more because you do
need to be diligent in reading 

318
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,840
through the board packs and the 
board packs can be quite meaty. 

319
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,800
How many pages are we talking? 
About 150 usually. 

320
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,000
And you know, you do need to 
read them, you do need to 

321
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,760
question them. 
You you need to be prepared. 

322
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,200
Some of them are for information
only, which is to be noted, and 

323
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,480
that's absolutely fine, but you 
can still query things. 

324
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,640
Then there are others where 
we've actually got to make a 

325
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,920
decision and vote. 
So again, you do need to be well

326
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,720
prepared for that. 
So it isn't just about attending

327
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,160
the meetings, it is about that 
preparation time as well. 

328
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,360
So I think that needs to be 
really clear. 

329
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:50,640
And obviously you need to ensure
that your company or your own 

330
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,880
private or your own personal 
time can definitely accommodate 

331
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,840
that. 
And then, you know, you will be 

332
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,960
absolutely encouraged to take on
champion roles as and when 

333
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,760
required. 
So as board champions, you know,

334
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,440
like I took on the website as I 
mentioned earlier. 

335
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,200
So yeah, do think carefully 
about the time time. 

336
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,720
Commitment to pick up on the 
topic we talked about earlier 

337
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,920
around influencing. 
How do you use your influencing 

338
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,800
skills to bring about positive 
change as a trustee? 

339
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,880
I do feel that I am able to 
clearly articulate my views. 

340
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,720
I strive to get across 
definitely what success would 

341
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,160
look like and I always try and 
bring that into the 

342
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,720
conversation. 
If I'm honest, being a trustee 

343
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,040
is relatively easy to influence 
when you're there to ensure, 

344
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,200
because you're, you're there to 
ensure the board, as the board 

345
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,200
that you're supporting APM 
delivering its commitments. 

346
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,120
You've been brought on to be 
listened to and for your view, 

347
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:52,720
so you'd expect to be listened 
to and to be able to have the 

348
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,760
same matters. 
What about if you're not in a 

349
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,320
privileged position to be on a 
board? 

350
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:02,800
What what kind of other tips 
would you have about being a a 

351
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,200
capable influencer and and how 
important is that to the success

352
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,960
of a project? 
Any advice you'd pass on? 

353
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,400
Honesty is, is always is, is 
just a key thing really, you 

354
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,080
know, whoever you're trying to 
work with or whoever you're 

355
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,440
trying to influence rather you, 
you've got to understand what 

356
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,120
success looks like for them and,
and back to the piece we've 

357
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,720
already discussed around 
tailoring your messaging to suit

358
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,280
because obviously you, you want 
to show that actually what 

359
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,720
you're going to do is going to 
help them achieve what they're 

360
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,400
looking for. 
So their outcomes, whatever 

361
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,000
their success measures are 
looking at how they again, back 

362
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,360
to what is their preferred 
communication method. 

363
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,800
So ensure, so you ensure that 
your message meets that and, and

364
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,280
just be genuine and yourself. 
Because you know, at the end of 

365
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,840
the day, we, I can't remember is
it's not 80% you get from body 

366
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,040
language. 
People will read you like a 

367
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,560
book. 
And if they don't think you're 

368
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,800
being genuine and honest, the 
chances of you having any 

369
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,160
influence in that space is 
pretty, pretty low. 

370
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,480
Your career, you've switched 
sectors and it seems to me that 

371
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,920
that's something that the 
profession wants to encourage 

372
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,720
project professionals to do 
because there's demand 

373
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,760
everywhere and project 
management is exploding in into 

374
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,040
non traditional sectors. 
What was it like for you jumping

375
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,800
from, correct me if I'm wrong, 
from manufacturing into the 

376
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,760
water industry, which is where 
you are now? 

377
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:28,480
What? 
What? 

378
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,120
Why did you decide to make the 
jump and how easy was it to 

379
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,840
switch sectors? 
I had a career of nearly 30 

380
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,040
years in Rolls Royce, which was 
aerospace and manufacturing. 

381
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,800
It was quite daunting leaving a 
company after that length of 

382
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,400
time, but I went into the 
manufacturing technology centre.

383
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,280
So again, sort of understanding 
my manufacturing knowledge was 

384
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,000
fine, I could carry that across.
But actually it made me realise 

385
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,920
even more that it was my project
management skills. 

386
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,640
They, they don't change. 
You might use a different 

387
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,640
project management system or it 
might be a, a different planning

388
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,200
tool, but on the whole, you're 
predominantly, your skills are 

389
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,760
exactly the same from from what 
one sector to another. 

390
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,360
So it's learning the language of
the sector. 

391
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,200
You would do that for me anyway.
You would do that no matter what

392
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,600
job you were going to, you would
do the research to learn about 

393
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,000
the sector, about the company 
you were going to. 

394
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,080
So it's about that preparedness.
Again, if you're a project 

395
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,960
manager, you'd know that 
actually for projects to 

396
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,080
succeed, it's all in the 
planning element, doing as much 

397
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,080
of planning and upsight work 
that you can do as possible. 

398
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,880
And that's exactly the same in 
your career. 

399
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,320
So if you're going to make that 
jump, just make the time to go 

400
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,040
and read round the subject, you 
know, So going from 

401
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,760
manufacturing to the water 
sector, it was just 

402
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,760
understanding what the language 
is, learning that the acronyms 

403
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,720
that you thought you knew 
acronyms to suddenly have 

404
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,080
different meanings to them 
within the different sector. 

405
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,480
But I've really loved change in 
the respect that even I was a 

406
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,320
Rolls Royce for 30 years. 
I moved around from like the 

407
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,960
energy business to the 
aerospace, the submarines. 

408
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,800
So I've always loved that 
challenge of learning, but 

409
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,160
taking your core skills and 
project management with you. 

410
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,160
So that's why I think it's just 
the best profession ever because

411
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,800
it enables you to move around 
all of the sectors. 

412
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,560
Do you think project 
professionals need to be more 

413
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,160
confident about the 
transferability of their skills?

414
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:31,160
I think people feel a bit stuck 
in their kind of siloed sector. 

415
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,000
Do you think there needs to be a
greater confidence or ambition 

416
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,400
that you that it's fine, you 
will have to be, You're not 

417
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,600
starting out from scratch again,
but you are working within a new

418
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,840
in a completely new sector that 
you like. 

419
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,120
You say you have to learn the 
language and that can maybe put 

420
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:46,800
people off. 
Will be a bit daunting. 

421
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,080
It can be daunting and I think 
this definitely will hold some 

422
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,800
people back thinking, well, I've
got no 20-30 years maybe in the 

423
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,720
rail industry. 
Could I move into something like

424
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,560
the water industry? 
And the, and the answer is, is 

425
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,120
definitely yes. 
I've noticed as well that in 

426
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,320
it's sometimes sectors of we 
have, but we want some more like

427
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,680
sort of 10 years experience in 
this sector and you're like, but

428
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,920
why tell me why or because 
they'll understand language that

429
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,480
have worked with the site, the 
supply chain etcetera. 

430
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,360
But if you take someone from the
rail industry, they 

431
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,680
predominantly work down a very 
almost like the same parallels. 

432
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,440
So they're working with the same
contractual terms, they're 

433
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,360
working with the same types of 
supply as in the contacts of the

434
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:38,520
contractors etcetera. 
So it's just a case of got a new

435
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,520
use the new language and 
actually where it's so 

436
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,600
competitive, it's so it's the 
demand is so much. 

437
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,520
You can't just keep getting 
people from the water sector. 

438
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,400
You need to start bringing 
people across from what I'd say 

439
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,240
almost like our parallel sectors
and pulling them in. 

440
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,880
And actually when you know, 
we've had that conversation and 

441
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,760
we've managed to do that, 
they've been really appreciative

442
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,960
of it and actually, Oh yes, OK, 
that's that works really well. 

443
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,160
So I think employers as well 
need to wake up to the fact that

444
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:11,840
actually taking someone from 
comparable or sort of parallel 

445
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,480
sectors is really valuable 
because they they are really 

446
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,960
good skills and they just 
transfer across. 

447
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,760
So I think it works both ways. 
As an employee, you've got to 

448
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,560
have the coach to make that 
jump, but do your research. 

449
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,880
And as an employer, you need to 
have the coach to actually pull 

450
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,040
people across and actually you 
will get you will grow your 

451
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:32,880
talent pool, which is what you 
need just. 

452
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,880
Wanted to give you an 
opportunity to pass on any 

453
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,440
career or project lessons. 
Definitely keep up to date with 

454
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,920
current thinking. 
User organisations such as APM 

455
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,160
got great networking events, got
subject webinars, loads of 

456
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,040
project management articles out 
on the web as well. 

457
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,400
So absolutely keep up to date 
with current thinking. 

458
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,920
And and in Project magazine 
just. 

459
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:58,720
Oh, yeah. 
Sorry. 

460
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:04,560
Yes, yes, yeah, definitely. 
But in short, you've got to keep

461
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,360
abreast of what's going on in 
the profession because you've 

462
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:10,720
got to pick up and learn the new
ways of working and thinking and

463
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,120
any language shifts that are 
going on as well. 

464
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:15,880
So just keep up to date. 
I mean you should be doing it 

465
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,760
anyway. 
If you're a member of APM, it is

466
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,080
incumbent on you to do your 
continued professional 

467
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,760
development and and this is a 
really key way of of doing that.

468
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:26,720
It's been a pleasure talking to 
you. 

469
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,280
Thanks for sharing your insights
not only into your crib but also

470
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,520
being a a trustee. 
Any last things you wanted to 

471
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,000
add? 
Even if you've had sort of, oh, 

472
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,480
might quite fancy being a 
trustee, really just put 

473
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,120
yourself out there. 
Go for it. 

474
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,720
It's just such a fantastic 
opportunity. 

475
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,760
It's so insightful looking at 
how APM are running, how you can

476
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,960
help guide them. 
I just can't. 

477
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,480
I can't express enough how much 
people should just have a go. 

478
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,600
It's just great. 
Well, that's the perfect way to 

479
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,920
end the podcast, I think. 
It just leaves me to say thank 

480
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,440
you again and it's been an 
absolute pleasure talking to 

481
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:08,680
you. 
Thank you, Emma. 

482
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:20,240
Thanks again to Emma for joining
us and to you for listening to 

483
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,320
the APM Podcast. 
APM members who would like to 

484
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,760
serve as a trustee have until 
5:00 PM on Wednesday, the 4th of

485
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,520
September to nominate 
themselves. 

486
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,880
This year's ballot will see 
three new trustees elected. 

487
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,560
For more information, see the 
link in the episode. 

488
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,720
Description. 
Don't forget. 

489
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,520
To look out for more episodes 
or. 

490
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,080
To rate and review us wherever 
you get your podcasts. 

491
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,280
We'd welcome you to get in touch
with your comments, feedback and

492
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,280
suggestions by emailing us at 
APM Podcast at thinkpublishing 

493
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,600
dot. 
Co.uk. 

494
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,560
If you're a Spotify user, you 
can leave us feedback directly 

495
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,240
by adding a comment. 
Within the app. 

496
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,560
This podcast has been brought to
you by APM, the chartered body 

497
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,880
for the project profession. 
For more information on APM, 

498
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,360
visit APM. 
Dot org.uk.