1 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,300 Welcome to the OPM podcast. OPM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:20,600 the project profession. My name is Emma Devita and I'm 3 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,100 the editor of projects apm's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:29,200 in the hot seat today with me is Belinda Palmer, founder, and CEO 5 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,700 of the empathy business he was also the keynote speaker at 6 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:35,200 apm's women in project management conference. 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,800 In September Belinda uses the sites of empathy to change the 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,600 way we lead at work, changing. Cultures to bring more 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,200 empowerment to There's lives with a focus on belonging and 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,400 diversity. Belinda, is also the creator of 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,300 the global empathy index published in the Harvard 12 00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:56,100 Business Review, which is the first index to measure empathy 13 00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:00,200 and inclusion at scale. She works alongside CEOs and 14 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,700 leaders of large organizations to transform companies using the 15 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:07,500 power of empathy, a speech, to a p.m. members in September 16 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:09,700 triggered. A lot of conversations and I 17 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:12,600 found what she had to say, both intriguing and highly useful to 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,200 the art of project management. And so Belinda. 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,200 Welcome. I'm delighted to have you here. 20 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:19,800 However, it's wonderful to be here. 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,200 Thank you so much for inviting me. 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Just one thing. Unfortunately, it's not a hot 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,600 seat. It's a cold. 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,100 See Dixon going in London right now. 25 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,600 So I'm pretty freezing. So if you hear my hands 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,200 well-being, it's just because I'm freezing. 27 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:35,600 Make sure you have a hot cup of tea. 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,200 Next year, let's start at the beginning with the basics of, 29 00:01:39,208 --> 00:01:42,800 how do you define empathy and could you give an example of two 30 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,500 of empathy and Action. So the way we Define empathy is 31 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:51,000 that it's the emotional impact that a company has on its 32 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,800 colleagues. But also on its customers. 33 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:59,000 And it's really important that we don't look at empathy, just 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,400 internally or just empathy for clients. 35 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,800 Because often what happens is, you know, if my son's 36 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,200 misbehaving at school, it's because there's a problem at 37 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,400 home. So you can't have internal 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,400 empathy without external empathy and vice versa. 39 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,800 So that's how we Define it. Which is the emotional impact 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,100 that our company has on its colleagues and its customers and 41 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:24,500 there's three different types of empathy, there's cognitive 42 00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:28,100 empathy, which is about understanding some spective 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,400 there is affective empathy, which is when you feel someone's 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,100 pain and then there's Behavior empathy. 45 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:41,000 And this is about when empathy moved you to act and the second 46 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,700 part of your question, which is about empathy in action. 47 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:48,500 So, for me, Me, it's all about using empathy to act. 48 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:51,800 It's very different to sympathy. So an example of empathy in 49 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,000 action, you know, it's not me. You telling me something sad and 50 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,200 you saying, Emma? That's really, really sad. 51 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,400 It's me saying, okay, you've got an issue. 52 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:02,900 Let's sit down together. Let's work it through. 53 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:06,900 I will support you, but ultimately the responsibility 54 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:10,900 and accountability is with you. So that's that's a really 55 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:14,500 important distinction and that did that lack of difference 56 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:17,300 between them Dorothy and sympathy is something I see all 57 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:19,100 the time in companies. Hmm. 58 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,600 Okay. What, why does empathy Master at 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,600 work and why? Particularly now, there's been a 60 00:03:24,608 --> 00:03:28,100 lot of talk about empathy and how has that gone from something 61 00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:32,500 that people think about, kind of as an individual within their 62 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:36,000 own kind of personalized, how come that now has translated to 63 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,600 the world of work and teams. Well, I think I'm busy matters 64 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,100 because we spend 50 years of our lives at work. 65 00:03:46,100 --> 00:03:48,800 So that's more time than we get to spend with our kids or 66 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,600 families. So, I think, for a lot of people 67 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:57,500 work should be a place of purpose of meaning, a place 68 00:03:57,500 --> 00:04:02,900 where you feel like you have a voice, but the reality is that 69 00:04:02,900 --> 00:04:07,500 most of us actually feel that work is not a place where we 70 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:10,500 feel that. So there's there's some new 71 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:13,800 studies done really where they, you know, there was a large 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,700 proportion of the UK Workforce who said they wouldn't wish 73 00:04:16,700 --> 00:04:24,300 their work on their worst enemy. So yes for a lot of people and I 74 00:04:24,308 --> 00:04:27,200 can send you the link so we can put the stats in the show, note 75 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,300 in the podcast nodes, but for a lot of people work has never 76 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:35,900 been, you know, less exciting. And for me I feel that's really 77 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:37,800 sad. Given the amount of time we 78 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,300 spend It that in terms of whether it's more important. 79 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:46,000 Now more than ever, I think it's always been there, you know, if 80 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,400 you look at, they've done lots of experiments with rats, you 81 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,000 know, Even Rats will typically show each other empathy in times 82 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,700 of need. So empathy is an innate thing. 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,400 But what's happened is with work in the pursuit of profit in the 84 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:08,400 in the way organizational design has been created is we've 85 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,100 knocked out the empathy out of the workplace. 86 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:14,100 And what I want to do is transform the workplace to bring 87 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:18,600 more empathy back into it, as it should be because that's the 88 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,100 kind of effects of the pandemic covid influence this at all. 89 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,400 Well, it hasn't it hasn't, I mean during the pandemic people 90 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,700 were firefighting so actually I saw a reduction in companies 91 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:34,200 wanting to kind of look at empathy because everybody was 92 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,900 trying to survive. So, in that way, at the 93 00:05:37,907 --> 00:05:43,000 beginning, we saw we saw different types of empathy. 94 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,800 I mean, it's interesting during the pandemic, we were working 95 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,400 for a financial organization. One of Britain's largest banks. 96 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,600 What we saw was they Empower people a lot more. 97 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,300 So we saw it. Increase in empathy because 98 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,800 people were empowered. So people, in branches, people 99 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,600 who are answering the phones, they were given a lot more 100 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,800 autonomy in it and agency. So in that respect and empathy 101 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:09,900 was becoming much more important. 102 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,700 I think over during the pandemic though we saw that decrease with 103 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:16,900 everybody, you know, worrying and fear and uncertainty. 104 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:20,500 It kind of makes us more cautious and more kind of go 105 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:22,800 into our own shelves. So I think we're seeing 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,700 differing levels of empathy but I I feel now as we're coming out 107 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:30,100 of the pandemic, it is definitely becoming a boardroom 108 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:31,900 topic and that's what I want to see. 109 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,500 I want to see it as an agenda item on the board. 110 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,600 I want to see it in the corporate Financial accounts and 111 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:42,000 you know that there is a section on empathy for customers empathy 112 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,700 for staff, interesting that you're mentioning a kind of 113 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:50,400 board room, sir, how seriously, organizations and teams all 114 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,800 those concerned with creating effective teams. 115 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,500 How seriously they taking empathy. 116 00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:58,600 So maybe it'd be helpful if you could tell us the kind of 117 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,300 clients you have you already mentioned kind of National Bank, 118 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:05,900 but could you give us an idea of how Corporate sir kind of 119 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:09,700 viewing this now? Well, I think for a lot of 120 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:12,800 Corporations, they want to be empathic, but they struggle 121 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,000 with, oh, does that mean we're being nice? 122 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,700 You know, is that we were going to lose money? 123 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,000 And I think the way that the embassy business, my company 124 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,300 comes in, is to say, look, they're not mutually exclusive. 125 00:07:23,300 --> 00:07:27,000 You could use lots of different tools and the theory is one lens 126 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,700 that will help you ask a slightly different question and 127 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:32,500 get to a slightly different answer and that slightly 128 00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:35,600 different answer. We've seen up, cleats uplifted, 129 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,400 net promoter score, We've seen uplift in cash to the business 130 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,200 by, you know, approximately 30%. So all we really doing is using 131 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,000 empathy as a lens and as a tool to drive change in 132 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,600 organizations, I think companies are more interested in empathy. 133 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,800 I've definitely seen that. In terms of the new business, we 134 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,300 get. I think the difficulty for many 135 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:03,200 companies and leaders is. How, where do I start? 136 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:04,600 You know. Yes, I know, I need to be 137 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,300 empathic. It's a bit like, saying to you. 138 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:11,100 I need to go to the gym. I know that but I'm too tired or 139 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:13,900 I can't be bothered or I've got you know, loads of other things 140 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:17,400 I've got to do and that's similar in an organization, 141 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,100 there's another load of priorities. 142 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:23,400 So I think the first thing is to really hold up the mirror. 143 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,000 If you're thinking about being more empathic as a company, 144 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,000 you've got to measure it. And the the 10,000 steps is a 145 00:08:30,008 --> 00:08:32,900 really good example because as soon as people started 146 00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:35,900 measuring, how many steps they did a day, they started 147 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:38,100 thinking, I need to do More steps. 148 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,000 So it's the same with the company empathy. 149 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,100 You've got to hold up the mirror and we do that by measuring 150 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:46,300 things like the percentage of time senior vs. 151 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:49,700 Junior people speaking meetings, you don't want your senior 152 00:08:49,700 --> 00:08:51,900 people talking all the time because you're creating a 153 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:54,500 culture of deference which is counter to a culture of 154 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:57,900 innovation. Other metrics, you know, 155 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:01,900 introverts, we want to hear everybody needs to have a voice. 156 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:04,700 If you don't want that person to speak then they shouldn't be at 157 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:07,200 the meeting if you're going to invite them to a meeting. 158 00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:10,200 I think they should speak and give them a voice. 159 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,300 So, we measure the amount of time, introvert, speak, you 160 00:09:13,300 --> 00:09:15,300 know? We measure corporate politics, 161 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,200 lots of different measures. But the first thing is, if you 162 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,800 really want to stop thinking about this, you've got to sort 163 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,300 of measure empathy at the risk of asking an obvious question. 164 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,100 What is the business case for upping? 165 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:31,900 The empathy and till at work? Yeah, I don't think that's an 166 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:35,800 obvious question at all. I mean, as you mentioned, I ran 167 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,600 a study in the half. The business of you to actually 168 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,500 answer that question, this was more than five years ago and 169 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:45,700 what we found is that the more empathic companies they make 170 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:50,000 more money whether you split it by, by growth by earnings and 171 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,300 productivity. And then catalyst have recently 172 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:58,400 done some research will not will last year, actually, it's called 173 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,400 The Power of empathy in times of Crisis and Beyond. 174 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:04,600 And what they did is they gave us some of the stats that really 175 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,100 confirm the work that I did years. 176 00:10:07,300 --> 00:10:11,600 Earlier. But what they saw was that there 177 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,600 is a 76 percent of employees with highly, empathic leaders 178 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:21,900 report being often or always being engaged compared to 32% of 179 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:23,800 people with less empathic leaders. 180 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:27,700 So, nearly double levels of Engagement burnout. 181 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:31,900 When you look at burnout is much lower when you've got highly 182 00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:37,400 empathic leaders and diversity and this was the things we We've 183 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,100 never seen such a link to diversity and had the route. 184 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,400 We've always known that more empathic companies are more 185 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:49,200 diverse, but what they found was a 22 to 58 percentage points 186 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,000 difference between increased inclusion and belonging when 187 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:58,500 somebody's manager is empathic. So more empathic companies not 188 00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:02,100 just make more money, they have higher levels of Engagement 189 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:07,500 lower burnout, but they're more diverse So, I'm specifically 190 00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:14,300 thinking about leaders and managers of project teams and it 191 00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:17,600 sounds. And so if the leader or manager 192 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,300 of a team like that is thinking about empathy is beginning to 193 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,800 sort of delve into it quite seriously. 194 00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:31,900 What advice would you give to them about empathy and what if 195 00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:34,500 it doesn't come naturally to them as well? 196 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:37,400 Well, I think we're all working progress. 197 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:41,800 I mean, you know, I have very little empathy for my teenage 198 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,800 kids, some of the time because they just want bacon sandwiches 199 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,600 and money from me. So I struggling showing them 200 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,800 empathy, you know, I don't think no one's empathetic, even the 201 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,400 Dalai Lama is not a thetic all the time. 202 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,100 Work in progress and I think that's really important. 203 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:01,700 This, the other thing is, you know, we have to create the 204 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:06,100 conditions for empathy because you can't Expect people to show 205 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:09,400 empathy if you don't even talk about it, you don't reward it. 206 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,100 So, we just done a project for an energy company in South 207 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:14,300 Africa and we changed all the operation. 208 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:19,300 So we piloted empathy across two teams and compared that to the 209 00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:23,000 performance, in the rest of the organization, we change the way 210 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,800 we were awarded them. They had an empathy recognition 211 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,900 fund, which was a really small thing where you could buy. 212 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,000 If you showed me empathy today or, you know, we got a client 213 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:36,400 for a specific, you know. Project. 214 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,600 I could use the empathy fund, and buy you lunch or a cup of 215 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,200 coffee. Really small things. 216 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,000 So, one we put in the measurement and reward 217 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,000 structure. Secondly, we did empathy 218 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,100 training to get the difference between empathy and sympathy. 219 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,500 Thirdly, we kind of held up the mirror. 220 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:54,100 So this was about empathy in operations, but you can do this 221 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:58,100 with empathy and projects. How you write, how you manage 222 00:12:58,100 --> 00:13:00,400 the clients? You're, there were so many ways. 223 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,400 So I think showing people what great empathy looks like 224 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,000 showing. In people, what an empathy 225 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,100 deficit looks like, it might be in the process, it might be in 226 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:11,300 the way. You write an email, whatever. 227 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:15,300 But if you're leading a project team, really identifying this is 228 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,400 great, empathy. This is not and making it a 229 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,200 regular part of your conversation and that's really, 230 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,800 really key. It's not a tick box exercise. 231 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:27,900 It takes time, it takes the involvement of people, and 232 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:31,300 you've got to really show people what great empathy looks like. 233 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,600 And that could be something. So tiny, as the way someone's 234 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,500 written. An email, the way a meeting is 235 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,900 conducted. You know, the way a project is 236 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:42,000 delivered, could I give you scenario? 237 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,500 So I have a better idea of what it's like in practice. 238 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:49,100 So say you have a team meeting, a project team meeting. 239 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,800 And one of the more junior members on the team, raises 240 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,800 their hand and points out, something they're concerned 241 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,000 about on the project, which actually is the kind of a brave 242 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,500 thing to do. As a team manager team leader, 243 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,300 what would be the empathetic way to respond to that? 244 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,600 What would be the way not to do it? 245 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,100 Well, I think there's there's the way to respond to it. 246 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:16,700 There's also wait the way to raise that issue as well, so I 247 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,400 think empathy comes not just from the team managers. 248 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,800 It's also the people everybody. Empathy is everybody's 249 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,300 responsibility, so one if you're giving that feedback, it's 250 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:29,700 really to be say, look, I really State your intention. 251 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:32,600 So I'm Um, about the person giving the criticism or the 252 00:14:32,608 --> 00:14:35,600 concern. So one in terms of how you would 253 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,700 do, that one is to State your intention. 254 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:39,300 I really want this project to go. 255 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:42,000 Well, I really believe in this project. 256 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:47,400 The issue I've got my concern is about X and what I really want 257 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,100 to do is use this forum so that we can explore ways to resolve 258 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:51,900 it. Okay? 259 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:54,300 So that's how I might give the feedback. 260 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:58,000 It always has to be with this positive intention. 261 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,900 This is what I'm trying to do, okay? 262 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:02,300 The other thing is it the right Forum? 263 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:04,700 I don't know the situation but if it's team meeting that sounds 264 00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:08,500 like it is the right Forum, the weight of respond to that is to 265 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:12,600 say, okay look right. What I want to do is I want to 266 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,600 break down that. I want to know a little bit 267 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,100 more. So let's further. 268 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:19,700 Understand if you've got a concern, is it around the 269 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:21,700 relationships? In terms of the team? 270 00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,800 Composition is it about how we'd if we can deliver on time. 271 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:29,300 So really drilling down asking some brilliant questions, that 272 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,600 would be my first First reaction is to ask him really questions 273 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,100 because the problem with a lot of conflict is that it all gets 274 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:40,400 bundled up and it all gets into, oh, you know, you just don't 275 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,900 like each other or you just don't care about the client or 276 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,200 whatever it is. You just don't think it's get, 277 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,200 you know, it all gets lumped into a very simplistic thing. 278 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,900 So as a really good empathic conversation, I would start 279 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:55,300 drilling down and finding out what the issue is. 280 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,800 And then going back to the accountability issue is not 281 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,100 true. To solve it. 282 00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:03,900 You're the team manager but your job is not to solve the 283 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,200 problems. Your job is give to give people 284 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,400 the space and the support to solve them themselves. 285 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:14,300 So don't solve it, don't fix it. And that is the biggest thing as 286 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:16,700 well that we all do. We want to fix it, especially 287 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,900 me. I mean, what you just said was a 288 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:22,700 revelation to me because I thought of the manager is a 289 00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:25,100 person who needed to be focusing on the empathy. 290 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:29,900 But actually, like you say, it's every person on that team who 291 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:34,000 has to have an empathetic kind of mindset. 292 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,700 How do you go about creating a culture? 293 00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:43,000 Then that it expects empathy. So one I think is start small, 294 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,200 so take a team, take a team, if it's a project management team, 295 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,700 so you might For example, say right. 296 00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,200 We're going to try. We're going to try five empathy 297 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,000 nudges in the way we respond to the client, the way we kind of 298 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,900 speak to each other. We're going to put it on our 299 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,100 team meeting, you know, create five or ten, empathy nudges. 300 00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:04,800 So, start small is the first thing, what were these empathy 301 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,500 nachos you're talking about. So an empathy nudge is just a 302 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:10,300 small shift that you're going to make. 303 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:13,400 You've made a commitment. It might be right. 304 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,300 I'm going to change the way we speak to clients in a more 305 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,099 empathic toe. It might be the way we run 306 00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:23,400 internal meetings or it might be the way we give feedback to each 307 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,500 other to use your earlier example. 308 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:28,500 So you say what you sit down, you sailor, empathy is important 309 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:32,000 to this team, what are 10 things we should experiment with our 310 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,600 empathy nudges that we think are quite easy to do not going to 311 00:17:35,608 --> 00:17:39,300 cost any of us money but actually we want to try to come 312 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:41,200 up with your five or 10 and 15 judges. 313 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,400 Number one, keep them small height low-cost. 314 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,400 High-impact the second thing is then stop measuring that 315 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,900 progress. So we always like then you know 316 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:54,200 if you've got a client evaluation so with project do 317 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,600 you get you know when you're when you're writing the beard or 318 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,000 however you assess these things, you might add an empathy 319 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,700 evaluation questioning so that you start measuring it or 320 00:18:02,708 --> 00:18:06,000 getting feedback from the client or internally about how you 321 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,100 doing. So to put in some kind of 322 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:10,400 measurement. And I think the third thing is 323 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,200 to start with tangible things, it might be the way you write a 324 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,900 bid, it might be the way that the website is, you know, very 325 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:19,300 talented. Jubal we often start with 326 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:22,500 language to part of what we do is rewrite, a lot of 327 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:26,000 communications for clients for one Energy company. 328 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,200 We're about a hundred letters, you know. 329 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,800 So what we'll do is, we'll start in a very tangible area so that 330 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,900 people can start to get empathy and think, oh, it's not, it's 331 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:38,300 not just about us, it's not just about us having a team Hagen, 332 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,500 you know, or bringing bring your dog to the zoom call. 333 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:45,100 It's much more than that. So, the third thing is really 334 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:48,400 make it tangible. So those are things I would do 335 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,800 and do it collaboratively. It's very difficult to change. 336 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,700 If you're a team manager, if you're someone, it doesn't 337 00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:55,300 matter what level you are saying. 338 00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:57,300 Look, do you do we care about this? 339 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,100 Should we make this a focus in 2023? 340 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,800 Should we have an empathy kickoff meeting? 341 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:06,600 And should we make this a reality? 342 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:10,300 Brilliant. Thank you one. 343 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:13,200 Follow-up question from that, that intrigued me is about the 344 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,900 use of language. So when you're rewriting 345 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:20,700 corporate materials, can you give an example of language that 346 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:23,700 is not empathetic and what that would be changed to. 347 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,500 Yes, so the example that I shared at the conference was the 348 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,700 work we did with the UK government around the covid 349 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:35,200 communications. You know, it was very much the 350 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,600 fear-based if you remember the original Calms. 351 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,300 It was look him in the eyes. Tell him. 352 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:45,000 You always keep a safe distance. Very scary imagery. 353 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:47,600 And what we did is we said actually number one, you've got 354 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,000 to recognize that what people are doing. 355 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,400 Number two, you've got to articulate the why, why are we 356 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,400 doing this and thirdly, you've got to say what they're doing to 357 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,300 make a difference. So the change Communications 358 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,600 were, you know, every foggy lens is making a difference. 359 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,900 This was all about, you know, wearing a mask and your eyes, 360 00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:08,000 you know, your glass is steamed up. 361 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,300 So it's again, people just want to know that they're making a 362 00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:16,000 difference, they want to connect back to their, why even, you 363 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,700 know, Disney Disney, don't call their receptionist receptionist, 364 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:23,400 they call them director of impressions of First Impressions 365 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,600 and I love that because it might be changing the job titles. 366 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,000 That could be a really good, you know, thing. 367 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,500 So lots of things we've done about language, but I think 368 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:38,000 language is the most one of the most important. 369 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:43,300 Potent tools, we have and it's really underutilized dehumanized 370 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:46,900 in in every industry, not just your industry. 371 00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:52,500 My final question would be, what are the individual skills are 372 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:56,400 qualities that you can work on to be better at being 373 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,400 empathetic? So, one thing that's striking 374 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,000 me, is must be the power of being able to listen well. 375 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:08,500 So that people feel listened to is am I right in thinking that 376 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,900 and what would be the other things that you could work on. 377 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:16,200 So, I think absolutely. I mean, you can't really have 378 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,000 empathy, if you don't Listen and you just want to tell the other 379 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,800 person, you know what you think, but I think those are the 380 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,800 differences between listening and agreeing. 381 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,400 Don't have to agree with someone that the empathy is in the 382 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,100 listening. I might not agree with you. 383 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:35,500 You may say something. I do not agree with you, but 384 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:37,300 I've listened to you and you feel her. 385 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:41,700 Do you feel visible and you feel that I've taken the time to 386 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:44,000 listen to you? That's not the same thing. 387 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,300 So I think this thing is key but I actually think what we need 388 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,500 Each right now is team managers and leaders who can who can 389 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:55,800 lean, you know, really Embrace difficult conversations because 390 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,400 where empathy is key is when you're having a difficult 391 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,300 conversation and that's where you can really start to 392 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:06,300 practice. So, if you know, there's a 393 00:22:06,308 --> 00:22:10,100 difficult conversation, you've got to have think about it, 394 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:13,000 think about how you're going to you, how you how you're going to 395 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,900 State the positive intention, how you're going to not 396 00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:19,500 sugarcoat but say The facts how you're going to use emotional 397 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:22,700 labeling, some of the things I talked about the conference, but 398 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,000 there's kind of ten steps to having a difficult conversation. 399 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:27,900 You have to practice these things. 400 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,800 And for me, what I've seen with the best managers, it's not how 401 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,600 much empathy they've got is how reflective how self-reflective 402 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,000 and self-aware. They are. 403 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,400 That makes the biggest progress and that's what we're looking 404 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,900 for. Here is progress, not 405 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,200 perfection. Okay. 406 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,700 Thanks Belinda. Was there anything any last 407 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,700 pieces of advice? You'd like to pass on to people 408 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:54,700 in projects? A piece of advice, would be. 409 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:57,600 We all work in progress. You know sometimes you're going 410 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,100 to get it right? If you slept well or you feel 411 00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:03,900 good about yourself or you just naturally like the person, you 412 00:23:03,908 --> 00:23:05,700 know, that's going to be easy for you. 413 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,900 But the challenge is really when things are not going well and 414 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:11,900 making sure that you have those difficult conversations. 415 00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,500 I think that's really important right now because You know, it's 416 00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:19,300 really difficult for so many people cost-of-living crisis, 417 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:24,600 divisive political situation, it's very difficult. 418 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,400 So kind of asking people, do they feel heard and if you feel 419 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,500 that I've listened to you or how could I listen to you better, 420 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,400 you know, making making it really easy and giving people a 421 00:23:36,408 --> 00:23:39,900 space where they can tell you, whether you've been empathetic 422 00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:43,200 or how they want to be more empathic, I think that's really 423 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,000 really important. Okay, thanks Belinda. 424 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,300 I want to thank you for your time again, but also to ask if 425 00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,200 people want to find out more about you and your work, where 426 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,800 should they go? Well they we have a website, the 427 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,500 empathy business.com or you can reach out to me, Belinda at the 428 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:02,500 empathy business.com. I met and I was lucky enough to 429 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,500 meet quite a few of you at the conference. 430 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:06,300 I thought you are an amazing industry. 431 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:08,900 Amazing group of people. So, yeah. 432 00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:12,000 I'd love to stay in touch. Okay, thanks so much. 433 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,100 Thank you again. All right, take care. 434 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,000 Thanks again to Belinda for joining us and to you for 435 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,700 listening to this episode of the APM podcast. 436 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and 437 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,300 review as wherever you get your podcast, we'd welcome you to get 438 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:34,200 in touch with your comments feedback and suggestions by 439 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,400 e-mailing us at a p.m. podcast at think publishing .co.uk. 440 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,800 This podcast has been brought to you by APM the chartered body 441 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,200 for the project profession. For more information on a p.m. 442 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,900 visit to a p.m. dot-org. 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