1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,040 Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the 2 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:13,760 Association for Project Management, the childhood body 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,040 for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita, and I'm 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,480 the editor of Projects, APM's quarterly journal and your host. 5 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:25,400 When we first started recording our podcasts in 2020, we used it 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,360 as a way to document the work project professionals on the 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,400 frontline of the COVID pandemic were doing, from vaccine hunters 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,120 and HMRC top bosses leading the furlough projects to 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,000 professionals helping to pivot businesses online to keep 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,840 everything going. We're celebrating the 100th APM 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,280 podcast with a special guest this episode, so let me 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,840 introduce you to Ross Atkins, the BBC's News Analysis Editor, 13 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:52,920 who has presented and reported on some of the biggest stories 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,520 around the world for 20 years. He's also the creator of the 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,600 critically acclaimed Ross Atkins On Video series, where he 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,520 explains complex stories in a truly masterful way, from the 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,160 causes of the COVID pandemic to the war in Ukraine. 18 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:09,520 His new book, The Art of Explanation, is out now in 19 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,600 paperback, so we thought you'd love to hear from Ross himself 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,440 about how to get the often difficult art of explaining 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,960 right. We don't just mean explaining 22 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,240 the insurance and outs of a project to your team or 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,480 stakeholders, but how to communicate everything that 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,000 matters to you with both clarity and confidence so that you can 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,280 get what you set out to achieve. Ross has spent his career honing 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,920 his communication skills, so let's find out about his 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,240 foolproof system for getting explanations right and some 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,640 other top tips on effective communication. 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,320 Thanks Ross for your time today for the APM podcast. 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,040 Really appreciate it. Pleasure. 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,680 Let's dive straight in. I wanted to say congratulate you 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,240 on your book and and the videos you make. 33 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,080 Why do you think there's such an appetite for not only the 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,600 explainer videos, but also the advice you give on how to 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,800 explain and communicate well? Well, thank you very much indeed 36 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,600 for for inviting me and thanks for your kind words. 37 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,120 I think my starting point with all of this is that we are all, 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,760 in our different ways, being completely overwhelmed by 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,520 information. Regardless of what line of work 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,040 you do or what stage of life you're at, the chances are that 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,040 there's far too much information coming at you that you can 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,240 possibly consume. But that doesn't mean that we 43 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,880 don't want information. We do really want to need 44 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,280 useful, accessible information both for our working lives and 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,640 outside of our working lives. So I do think that anyone who is 46 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:43,120 offering to help us find the information we want as easily as 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,560 possible is likely to to find that what they're offering is 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,200 popular. And so in the case of our 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,800 explainer videos, what we're trying to do is there's still an 50 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,600 awful lot of information about a story or issue and put it into a 51 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,880 form where if you give us relatively short period of time 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,720 in a few minutes, in return, we hope will give you not just a 53 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,080 lot of useful information, but we'll also explain how that 54 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,040 information fits together. So that's what we're doing. 55 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,000 But I think it plays into a broader desire for all of us to 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,800 have information given to us in a way that is easier to consume 57 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,960 because frankly, we're spending a huge amount of our lives 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,240 processing and working through this vast amount of information 59 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,560 coming towards us. And if any source of 60 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,160 information, whether it's a person or an organisation, makes 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,600 that information easy to access and as relevant to us as 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,000 possible and as useful as possible, then we're likely to 63 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,280 think well towards that person or organisation because they're 64 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,480 saving US time. They're making the task of 65 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,600 finding the information we need easier. 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,160 And I hope that in our way, our explainer videos and the book 67 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,920 that I've written on this kind of plays into that because it 68 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,280 emphasises that good communication benefits the 69 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,720 person passing on the information because we give that 70 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,640 information the best chance of reaching the people we hope it 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,960 will reach. But it also works for the people 72 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,880 receiving information because they get the things that they 73 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,080 would like to know in as easier form to consume as possible. 74 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,720 Thanks, Ross. I, I definitely picked up on 75 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,240 that in your book. And one of the things that 76 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,440 surprised me was that there is an appetite for longer forms of 77 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,279 explanation as well, because there was something you raised 78 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,200 in the book where you feel as though people just have very 79 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,920 short attention spans now, you know, social media X whatever, 80 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,760 but actually there's a proven audience for people listening to 81 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,960 longer things or sticking in there if the explanation is 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,200 good. Is that something you that 83 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,440 surprised you too? I think there's a lot of 84 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,400 evidence around that, that both of these things can be true. 85 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,640 There are definitely environments in which we all 86 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,640 want information being offered to us or content being offered 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,800 to us in very short form, whether that might be a TikTok 88 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,880 video or, you know, posts on Instagram or X or other social 89 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,880 media that in some circumstances is what we're after. 90 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,240 Or we might be getting a, an update from work in an e-mail. 91 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,920 We don't want 1000 words. We'd much prefer to get a really 92 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,560 short e-mail with some bullet points that helps us understand 93 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,200 the point of that e-mail. So there are lots of 94 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,440 circumstances in which short does work for us. 95 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,280 But at the same time as that, there is also lots of evidence 96 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,600 that when people want detail, it's given to them in a way 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,640 that's engaging, that's easy to consume, that's easy to 98 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,800 understand, that they will spend time on it because detail is 99 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,720 relevant to them and interesting to them. 100 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,240 So we don't have to choose between these two things. 101 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,600 I think there are occasions when we want content and information 102 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,080 in really short form, but equally there are other times 103 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,520 when we will spend much more time on a subject. 104 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,200 If, and it's a big if, if the information is being given to us 105 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,560 in a way that feels relevant, accessible, helpful and all of 106 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,480 these things which I'm trying to do both with the book I've 107 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,040 written and with the videos I do for the BBC. 108 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,400 OK. I can't wait to dissect your 109 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,560 kind of system a bit later on, but I wanted to raise the point 110 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,200 for our listeners because our listeners are project 111 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,160 professionals ranging from apprentices up to very senior 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,200 level. Because your book and the advice 113 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,720 you give is not just about how to give a specific explanation, 114 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,920 it's about how to communicate clearly in many different 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,400 circumstances. So for project professionals, 116 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,760 there is a a lot of explanation to not only your team members 117 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,640 around the vision of a project, what needs to get done, but also 118 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,880 to stakeholders outside the project. 119 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,640 So communities who might not necessarily agree with what 120 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,880 you're doing, who have a very different perspective. 121 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,680 So I wondered if you could give us an idea of like the benefits 122 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:51,120 of improving our explanation skills not only inside of work, 123 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,760 but outside of work as well. Because there are clear benefits 124 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,360 for, you know, as an individual in everyday life as well. 125 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,720 Well, let's take the example of a, of a big project, the example 126 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,280 that you've just given in my work as a journalist, if I'm 127 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,400 trying to get an idea off the ground or a story commissioned, 128 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,240 well, I might need to interact with a number of people within 129 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,520 the BBC. It might be the producers who 130 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,160 I'm making the idea with or the the piece of content with. 131 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,480 It might be the editors who are going to Commission it. 132 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,560 There might be the executives above those editors if the idea 133 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,480 is a longer term plan. And then as well as that, of 134 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,200 course, when we're making the content, when we're developing 135 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,800 the stories, we need to think about which audiences we're 136 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,520 hoping to reach and which different types of BBC output, 137 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,600 digital radio, television, we might use in order to deliver 138 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,160 that piece of journalism. And so you're having lots and 139 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,760 lots of interactions with people who all need different things 140 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,400 from you. And in the same way, I would 141 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,720 imagine that that it is good project management because 142 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,200 again, you're dealing with lots of colleagues, lots of people 143 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,480 outside your organisation and you're having to make different 144 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,880 calculations. And my, my experience is that 145 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,000 the more that you can tailor what you're saying to the 146 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,280 particular people you're trying to reach, the more likely they 147 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,440 are to engage with what you're offering them. 148 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,640 Because in my experience as ATV presenter and reporter, if I can 149 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,840 make what I'm saying on the news feel relevant to a person 150 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,440 watching or listening or reading, they're much more 151 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,240 likely to consume that piece of news because they feel a 152 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,720 connection between their lives and what I'm telling them. 153 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,800 And similarly, if you're trying to communicate when you're 154 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,159 overseeing a big project, if you're pushing a lot of 155 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:36,200 information towards someone and they're thinking, I don't know 156 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,400 if this information is really particularly relevant to me or 157 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,600 the piece of information that is relevant is surrounded by a lot 158 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,760 of other information that isn't. There are lots of things that 159 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,520 can come with that that won't help you. 160 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,800 The person you're trying to communicate with might think, 161 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,520 well, all of this stuff doesn't look like it's for me, so they 162 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,520 won't engage with any of it. They might slightly resent the 163 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,440 fact that they're having to work hard to find the information 164 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,520 that's right for them amongst all of this other information 165 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,040 that's not. And you may send a broader 166 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,080 message that you're not necessarily making the effort 167 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,120 that you could to give them the information that's most 168 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,760 important to them. Or if you flip that round and be 169 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,640 more positive about this, if you can be really clear what 170 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,280 information the different stakeholders, the different 171 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,640 colleagues need to know and you can give it to them in a highly 172 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,800 accessible way and highly comprehensible way. 173 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,360 Well, they're going to notice that you're making that effort 174 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,040 and they're much more likely to consume it and then much more 175 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,280 likely to engage with it. And so when I'm thinking about 176 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,640 all of the different people I might need to communicate with 177 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,920 on one idea or another, I always stop and think, what would this 178 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,400 person like to know from me? Let's see it from their side. 179 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,120 What are the questions or the doubts or the pieces of 180 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,440 information that they would like from me? 181 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,920 And if I can provide them with that, not a guarantee that 182 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:54,760 they're going to consume what Ioffer them, it's not a 183 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,720 guarantee they're going to agree with me. 184 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,840 But I am giving myself a good chance of giving them a lot of 185 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,200 information that feels relevant to them. 186 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,840 And so I've worked on big projects over the years in 187 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,960 different forms. I always try and think, even if 188 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,440 I'm dealing with 10/15/20 different people with different 189 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,600 interests in the project stopping and thinking, what do 190 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,520 each of those individuals want to know from me? 191 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,520 What would it be helpful for them to know? 192 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,440 And if I can then answer those questions, there's a good chance 193 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,760 that they're going to feel what I'm offering is relevant. 194 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,200 And if they feel it's relevant, they're much more likely to 195 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,840 engage with it. Oh, thanks Ross. 196 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,800 Something that strikes me is the amount of preparation and time 197 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:41,480 you must put in that you're that comes through from your advice 198 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,240 as well to people. It's spending that time ahead to 199 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,680 the really put yourself in other people's shoes, I guess. 200 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,000 Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I, when I was before the 201 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,520 book came out, I showed a proof of it to someone I know who's 202 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,200 the CEO of a, of a big organisation. 203 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,280 And he was clicking through it and he said, Ross says this 204 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:05,840 looks like the case for preparation. 205 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,760 He said, waving the book at me. And, and of course, he was quite 206 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,680 right. The book is very much me saying 207 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,640 it's worth preparing. And there's a, there's a phrase 208 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,440 that my wife used one day when we were chatting in the kitchen 209 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,080 and I was writing the book and, you know, not for the first 210 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,640 time. And she was having to listen to 211 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,840 me talk about it. And she said, what you're 212 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,760 describing is the initial investment. 213 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,600 And I said, what do you mean? That's an interesting phrase. 214 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:30,320 And she said you're making the case to invest time in how you 215 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,960 communicate for all the benefits that follow. 216 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,560 And so you look quite right to observe that I am making that 217 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,480 case that when we put aside time to think about how we 218 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,880 communicate to all of the different people we want to 219 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,120 reach, there are so many benefits that follow. 220 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,080 I would argue that that time is a worthy investment. 221 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Yeah, it is. So that's the key point to come 222 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:52,800 across. The other thing I wanted to ask 223 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,960 you about, which kind of ties into what you're saying about 224 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,600 the relevant information to give to people, but also talk, talk 225 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,640 to me about the language you should use because I come from a 226 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,440 broad business kind of genders and backgrounds and come into 227 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,840 project management. There is a lot of jargon. 228 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,320 Well, I mean, to be honest, in any sector of business as 229 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,840 business speak, which can trick people into thinking that they 230 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,480 come across as expert and sometimes that's deliberate. 231 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,200 What do you think about jargon, business speaking, the type of 232 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,040 language you use for effective communication and explanation? 233 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,720 I think let's split this into two. 234 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,120 We all in our workplaces have jargon that we use to explain 235 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,080 something that everyone understands. 236 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,760 So I'll give you one example. In the BBC newsroom, especially 237 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:44,080 within TV news, we would call a clip of someone talking assault. 238 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,840 And that's an acronym. It stands for Sound on tape. 239 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,920 It's an acronym that reaches many years back and we just call 240 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,040 clips stop. So if I was to work with a 241 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,200 producer on a video and one of us might say I think we've got 242 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,920 too many shots in this video, that's some jargon. 243 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,160 But actually everyone within the conversation knows exactly what 244 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,320 it means. And so we carry on working in. 245 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,440 No harm done when you get into problems is well, there are two 246 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,560 areas. 1 is when you start using that jargon, but actually not 247 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,120 everyone in the in the conversation knows it. 248 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,360 So you're really alienating a bunch of people by using 249 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,080 something that that some of the people in the conversation won't 250 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,560 know what you mean. And that is obviously not the 251 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,640 right thing to do. And so if I was in a broader 252 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,360 conversation with people about a video and we were short of 253 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,160 clips, I would say, I think we've got too many clips in this 254 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,160 video or I think we need more clips in this video. 255 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,240 So I would say clip rather than sought because I would 256 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,280 understand that the, the group of people I was talking to 257 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,040 wouldn't necessarily know the acronym. 258 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,280 So those are calculations we can make and we should definitely 259 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:51,080 understand the cost of using words and phrases and concepts 260 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,840 that people, some people who we're communicating with don't 261 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,640 understand. They'll simply conclude what 262 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,400 this isn't for me and start tuning out. 263 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,880 It's not, it's not something we want to be doing. 264 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,520 But there's a second element to this, which is when we use 265 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:08,680 complex language, phrase complex words, phrases and so on, simply 266 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,560 instead of using simpler language to explain it. 267 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,080 Sometimes this can feel performative. 268 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,240 I'm sure some people listening can think of times when they've 269 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,200 felt that colleagues are perhaps kind of performing by using 270 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,280 complex phrases and words. I don't think this is ever 271 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,840 needed. And one of the most powerful 272 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,960 things that I keep in mind when I'm communicating, whether with 273 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,720 colleagues, whether you know, on the TV or making a video or 274 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,160 whatever circumstances, I simply ask myself, here's what I'm 275 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,040 saying in the simplest form that it can be. 276 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,400 And that doesn't mean I'm dumbing down or discarding 277 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,840 important information. It just means once I've decided 278 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,680 what it is that I think it's important to say, can I get that 279 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,600 into its simplest form? And that means replacing complex 280 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,720 words and phrases with things that are simply easier to 281 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,320 understand. Because there is a really, in my 282 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,520 mind, a straightforward equation, which is that the 283 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,280 simpler you make your language, the easier it is to understand 284 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,400 and the easier it is for people to act on. 285 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,360 And when you look at it in those terms, you always want to be 286 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,880 thinking about getting your meaning into the simplest form 287 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,360 that it can be. We're APM, the only chartered 288 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,960 membership organisation for the project profession. 289 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,640 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 290 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,400 support you need to make an impact, delivering better 291 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,040 projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive 292 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,360 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 293 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,360 We'll find out how we can help you reach your potential by 294 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:42,280 visiting apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, 295 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:50,200 society benefits. I'm thinking about the kind of 296 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,040 information project professionals need to pass on. 297 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,160 And often it will be verbally so in a project team meeting to get 298 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,120 people motivated or to stakeholders. 299 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,800 And you can imagine that kind of town hall situation where people 300 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:09,760 might be opposing what you do. Have you got any advice or top 301 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,480 tips and verbally delivering information and also dealing 302 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,320 with difficult comments or feedback or questions that 303 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,000 people ask? Well, I think in the case of if 304 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,480 you're going into a meeting, whatever the circumstance where 305 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,200 you're likely to be asked questions that could be 306 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,440 challenging or difficult to answer. 307 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,880 I mean, that's something that all of us experience in the 308 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,680 workplace, not in a bad way. It's just quite correct that in 309 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,680 lots of circumstances our ideas and our plans are challenged and 310 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,360 discussed. That's completely normal. 311 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,040 The thing that I try and do and you and learn this from doing 312 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,480 interviews in the news is it's good to try and anticipate what 313 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,960 you think you're going to be asked. 314 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:56,280 So if I'm, if I'm being interviewed myself, such as in 315 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,800 this situation, I'll definitely stop and think in advance what 316 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,400 are the questions I'm likely to be asked. 317 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,000 And in fact, when I was preparing for this book to come 318 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,319 out, I wrote down all the different questions I thought 319 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,440 that could come up in media interviews and then work through 320 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,160 how I'd like to answer them. So you can anticipate some of 321 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,960 the things that would, that might, that might come up. 322 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,640 I was involved in starting a diversity project at the BBC 323 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,800 called 5050. And in the early days when we 324 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,920 were explaining the idea to lots of different teams, we made sure 325 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,240 that we tried to anticipate the perfectly valid concerns and 326 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,000 questions colleagues might have about our plans and then think 327 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,560 about how we were going to answer them. 328 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,920 And if I'm going on the TV to report on a story, I would 329 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,440 think, well, what are the most likely questions the presenters 330 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,360 I'm going to be speaking to are going to ask me? 331 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,440 And I will definitely say out loud how I think I'm going to 332 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,360 answer them. And my experience is that the 333 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:54,200 first time I say it is very rarely as good as I would like 334 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,600 it to be, but the second or third time I start to improve 335 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,160 the precision and efficiency and clarity with which I'm speaking. 336 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,160 So going into any environment where you're going to be facing 337 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,680 a range of questions, whether supportive or challenging, it's 338 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,480 always worth simply stopping and thinking what are those 339 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,120 questions most likely to be? How would I like to answer them? 340 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:17,720 Practise how you answer them, review how your practise is 341 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,560 going and improve them and keep practising until by the time 342 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,760 you're in those situations, both the question and how you're 343 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,080 answering, it will feel much more familiar and there's a 344 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,960 greater chance you'll speak with, with, with, with clarity 345 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,600 in that moment. So that would be, that would be 346 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,640 one thing in terms of how, how to deal with people who are 347 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,640 perhaps getting angry with you or perhaps challenging you in a 348 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,600 way that might make you, that might be, might put you in a 349 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,160 difficult position. Well, I used to present a phone 350 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,560 in on BBC World Service for a number of years. 351 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,080 And of course, most of the, the vast majority of the callers 352 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,080 were fantastic and informative and you know, an absolute 353 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,280 pleasure to speak to. But from time to time you would 354 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,720 get someone who was was getting irate with you. 355 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,520 And I'm not an expert in how to manage some of the situations 356 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,320 project managers would would be in. 357 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,920 But in the case of in case of doing phone insurance, one of 358 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,600 the things I would often do would be to say, I want to 359 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,520 understand your perspective on this. 360 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,920 And if you're shouting at me, it's becoming hard to understand 361 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,320 that. And that was, that was a sincere 362 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,160 point because I genuinely would want to understand what that 363 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,440 particular caller was saying. And I would try and make the 364 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,760 case that if anger levels were getting to a certain level, 365 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,520 their understanding, their perspective was becoming harder. 366 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,440 And that was, that was sometimes effective because at the heart 367 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,880 of me presenting that programme, I was genuinely interested in 368 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,040 the perspective of every person who phoned that programme. 369 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,760 And I think being interested in people who don't agree with you 370 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,720 is really important. So if I'm in a meeting, whether 371 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,600 it's the BBC or otherwise, and people are not agreeing with a 372 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,640 plan or a suggestion of mine, I'm genuinely interested to 373 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,640 understand why I'm not fed up with them or cross with them. 374 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,800 I'm I'm genuinely keen to understand why. 375 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,480 And I think if you can come from that perspective, that can help. 376 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,480 Thanks. Ross comes down to practising 377 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,480 and preparation and a point that I wanted to raise from the book 378 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,080 that you make is around context and that as a journalist, you 379 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,520 read around the subjects as much as you can and the the time that 380 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,200 you have. But you don't necessarily have 381 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,920 to bring that into whatever it is you're reporting on or 382 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,680 writing or presenting on. But it gives you the confidence 383 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,320 to feel as though you know that subjects inside out. 384 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,400 Is that something that would apply to business situations? 385 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,240 I'm thinking for project teams as well. 386 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,680 I think nothing is happening in isolation where there is a new 387 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,920 story that I'm covering or whether it's a project that 388 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,800 people listening to this podcast might be working on, that 389 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,640 project will be affected by lots of different factors all around 390 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,360 it. Equally, when I'm covering an 391 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:07,080 event in the news, that events relevance and consequence is 392 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,880 affected of course by the context in which the event has 393 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,760 happened. And I think often we jettison 394 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:17,680 context in exchange for simply the the core information on a 395 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,440 particular event or situation. And I would argue we need to do 396 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:21,680 both. We need to say this is the 397 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,280 situation we're in and here are the facts of the matter. 398 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,400 But the reason this matters is, and that's a phrase I use a lot. 399 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,360 The reason this matters is, and that's really a linking phrase 400 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,440 that helps you think about the context. 401 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,560 So let's take an example of a project that was supposed to be 402 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,760 finished by the end of September, but for whatever 403 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,280 reason, it's got to be finished by the end of August, which is 404 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,440 going to cause a whole lot of disruption. 405 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,080 When you were communicating that if you just went I'm, you know, 406 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,240 afraid this is going to be finished by the end of August, 407 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,440 people might quite reasonably be thinking, well, hold on, I mean, 408 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,440 that's not realistic why you're doing this. 409 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,240 This is really annoying. But if you said, well, actually 410 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,200 this has got to be finished a month early and the reasons are 411 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,240 this and this and this, and that's why we have to make this 412 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,840 difficult decision. By providing the context in the 413 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,000 decision, you're much more likely to for people to be 414 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,200 understanding of the decision that's being taken. 415 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,960 It's not a guarantee, but it's going to help. 416 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:18,720 And so the reason this has happened is the reason this 417 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,960 matters is these phrases and completing them really help us 418 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,680 focus on providing the necessary context for people to be able to 419 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,000 judge what we're telling them. And if you prioritise context, 420 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,720 you give yourself the best chance of making the case to 421 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,680 whoever you're speaking to that what you're telling them 422 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,160 matters, or what you're telling them has to be done for a 423 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,640 variety of reasons, or whatever the example might be. 424 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,880 But without that context, they can't really judge what you're 425 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,280 telling them very well. And if they can't judge what 426 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,600 you're telling them, quite reasonably, they might not 427 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,520 understand your perspective as much as you would like them to. 428 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,240 That makes sense. It also ties in with this idea 429 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,240 of storytelling. So kind of the story as a 430 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,480 project where you are. So you you treat people with 431 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,480 with respect, I guess to say, you know, this is where we are, 432 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,520 This is why it's happened. And you fill them in into why 433 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,880 things need to change. That's great. 434 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,120 I, I want to ask you now about the practical sides of 435 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,840 explaining. And in your book you outline the 436 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,400 principles behind it and also the system you go through to 437 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,960 provide the most efficient, clearest explanation you can. 438 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,680 Could you give our listeners some tips or a very brief 439 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,040 overview of how to approach explanation? 440 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,600 What are the kind of do's and don'ts? 441 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,560 So in the book I outline A7 step process to explanation. 442 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,000 And don't worry, I won't go through it in huge detail now, 443 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,640 otherwise this podcast might be quite long, but I can certainly 444 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,720 run you through the basic principles of it. 445 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,120 And essentially the way I see communication and explanation is 446 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,160 that you can't build a house by doing the roof first. 447 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,640 You've got to put the foundations in before you do 448 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,640 anything else. And for me, communication and 449 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,440 explanation is a series of steps, each of which gives you a 450 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,200 better chance of doing the next one well. 451 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,800 And the end outcome, of course, is hopefully us identifying the 452 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,640 information we want to pass on and then passing it on to the 453 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,560 people we hope to reach in the circumstances that we know 454 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,080 they're going to receive it, because we don't communicate in 455 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,280 a vacuum. And so the first of my seven 456 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,680 steps is called the set up. And this is really where we just 457 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,360 pause and ask ourselves, what's the purpose of this 458 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,400 communication? What's the information we want 459 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,280 to pass on? Who are the people we're trying 460 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,880 to pass it on to? How do they like to receive 461 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,360 information? In what circumstances will they 462 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:41,680 be receiving this particular piece of information? 463 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,600 And sometimes if you're going into a meeting, that assessment 464 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,120 can take 30 seconds. It doesn't have to take ages. 465 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,480 For bigger bits of work, it takes a little longer. 466 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,720 But if you can be really clear on what you're trying to 467 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,480 achieve, who it's for, what information you want them to 468 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,720 receive, the best way of giving them that information, you're 469 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,480 going to make much smarter decisions as the process goes 470 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,840 along. So that's step one. 471 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,120 And then once I've done that, Step 2 is to gather what I think 472 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:09,760 is the most relevant information. 473 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,720 Step 3 is to distil it, because one of the best things we can do 474 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,640 is once we've thought about what we want to say, is make sure we 475 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,040 get each piece of information we want to pass on. 476 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,440 In the simplest form it can be. It'll both save you time when 477 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,160 you're communicating and make it easier to take in. 478 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,480 So Step 3 is distillation. Step 4, that's organising the 479 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,320 information. Once I've worked out what I want 480 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,840 to pass on, I want to start giving it some structure so that 481 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,760 the information makes sense when interconnecting with its with 482 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,400 itself. And then the 5th part of the 483 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,840 process would be to link that information. 484 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,080 Once I've given a structure I practise. 485 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,480 How can I talk through this? So if I was wanting to say this 486 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,640 project is going to be finishing at the end of August, not the 487 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,000 end of September. I might be saying well the 488 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,200 project is finishing at the end of August. 3 things underpin 489 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,680 this decision. The 1st is this, the second is 490 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,520 that, the third is the other. And if you've got questions 491 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,680 about what happens if it goes over late, well I can tell you 492 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,120 this will be the consequence and that will be the consequence. 493 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,840 So I would practise being able to talk through the structure of 494 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,680 the information so I'm fluent and confident and precise. 495 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,840 And if it's written, I would go back over it a few times. 496 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,880 If it's spoken, I would practise it. 497 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,920 Which leads me to the last two parts of the the seven step 498 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,160 process. Step 6 is what I call the 499 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,400 tightening process, which is when we've put together 500 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,880 everything we want to pass on, it's always worth going back 501 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,520 over it as many times as you can, frankly, and thinking, does 502 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,400 this all need to be here? Is this all as clear as it can 503 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,120 be? And in my experience, you'll 504 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,320 always find ways of improving it, of tightening it and making 505 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,280 it more precise. And once you're in that 506 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,360 position, of course you're in a great situation. 507 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,880 You thought about what you want to do, you've gathered the 508 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,160 information, you've distilled it, you've organised it, you've 509 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,160 linked it, you've tightened what you've got. 510 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,920 And then my last step is rehearse. 511 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,880 Practise it. The more you say things out 512 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,400 loud, the more comfortable you're going to be. 513 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,120 And I see this all the time when I'm broadcasting. 514 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,680 Sometimes I'll be down in Downing St on a big political 515 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,200 story and you'll see people like reporters like me wandering up 516 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,200 and down Downing St talking to themselves. 517 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,080 And what they're doing is practising rehearsing the 518 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,400 phrases they want to use. This doesn't mean, I should add, 519 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,120 you're learning things by Rd. You're not learning it word for 520 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,080 word. You're simply practising 521 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,240 handling the information. Because that means that when 522 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,320 you're doing it, when it really matters, it'll be familiar, 523 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,040 you'll be more comfortable with it and you're likely to speak 524 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,280 with more precision. So those seven steps help me go 525 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,480 from first of all thinking what is it I'm exactly trying to do 526 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,000 here all the way through to doing it. 527 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,760 That's fantastic. And I'm assuming as well that 528 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,560 once you've had some time using the seven step process that it 529 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:56,600 almost comes automatically. Yes, I mean, I think there are, 530 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,320 there are lots of times when these things become automatic. 531 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,040 You know, I'll give you a, you know, very short example. 532 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,720 If I was called in as soon as I finished talking to you. 533 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,440 Now, if I was called into a meeting at work at short notice 534 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,080 and I knew who was going to be in the meeting and roughly what 535 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,480 it was about, I would quickly make 3 columns which would be 536 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,800 what information do I want to make sure I pass on? 537 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,920 What information would I like to get from the people I'm meeting 538 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,560 and what are the things that I hope will happen next And that 539 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,880 can take that can take 30 seconds. 540 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,160 So sometimes you could, you're right, you can do it on 541 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,120 instinct. However, I'm at the moment, you 542 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:33,520 know, as I'm speaking to you, I'm in the process of preparing 543 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,800 for a reasonably high profile speech. 544 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,680 I've got to give in a few weeks time and I am going through the 545 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,560 seven steps as written in the book pretty methodically. 546 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,280 And so there are times when I do follow it, you know, stage step 547 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,040 by step by step. There'll be other times when of 548 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,120 course, as you get used to it and you become, it becomes 549 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,160 habitual. You can do it on instinct in 550 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,920 part. But in my experience, actually 551 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,800 being methodical and going through it, even if it just 552 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,120 takes 5 minutes, pays you back because you're just double 553 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,280 checking that you're being as clear and as purposeful as you 554 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,280 want to be. Thanks, Ross. 555 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,080 If there's one piece of advice that you'd like listeners to 556 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,200 take away from our podcast, what would that be? 557 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,320 It would be to see communication and explanation as being really 558 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,200 important because often they're seen as being secondary skills 559 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,400 besides the other things which all of us are expert in in our 560 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,880 working lives. And for me, my ability to 561 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,200 communicate is core to my journalism and core to my work 562 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,480 as a broadcaster, as core as other disciplines that are 563 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080 required of journalists and of broadcasters. 564 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080 And sometimes I think that communication and how we 565 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,760 communicate is something that we largely do on instinct and 566 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,600 perhaps don't consciously think about as much as we do other 567 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,840 skills in our working life. So the big one for me, before 568 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,960 you get into what do you do and how do you do it, is simply to 569 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,320 see it as being really important. 570 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,440 OK, thanks Ross. What are the proudest things 571 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,320 you've worked on at the BBC? Oh goodness. 572 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,120 Well, I've been lucky enough to do, you know, a range of, you 573 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,080 know, a range of things at the BBC which I'm incredibly proud 574 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,200 to have done with. With along with many brilliant 575 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,840 colleagues, we created ATV format called Outside Source, 576 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,200 which ran for almost 10 years on BBC World News TV and BBC News 577 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,720 Channel in the UK. We're very, very, very proud of 578 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,400 that. I mentioned the Diversity 579 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,080 Project 5050, which some of us started in the BBC Newsroom. 580 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,960 I'm very proud of how that's grown to be a really very big 581 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,880 project. And we're proud of our explainer 582 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,360 videos as well, which have become, you know, way more 583 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,640 popular than I think we ever imagined they could have done 584 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,360 when we were starting them. And you know, I'm sure there are 585 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,480 other things too. And of course, all of these 586 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,720 ideas are that a combination of many different people's work. 587 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,320 But there's no doubt that the ability to talk about ideas, 588 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,280 whether it's me talking about it or colleagues talking about it, 589 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,800 if you can talk about what you're trying to create, you're 590 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,720 much more likely that you will be able to create it. 591 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,840 And if I sound kind of very committed to this, well, of 592 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,520 course I am, because I've done a book on it and, and care deeply 593 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,560 about it. But really communication and how 594 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,280 you approach it can be the difference between something 595 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,880 happening and not happening. And when you look at it in those 596 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,600 terms, then it becomes an absolute priority. 597 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,120 But it leads me to ask you what you enjoy about your work, 598 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,600 particularly around the whole area of explaining and 599 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,880 communication. Well, I've always been very 600 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,000 interested in the news as I, you know, I can remember all the way 601 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,400 back to just starting secondary school and being an avid 602 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,240 consumer of the news. So I, you know, if you're still 603 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,640 feels I've been at the BBC an awfully long time, but it still 604 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,280 feels like an enormous privilege to walk in the door everyday and 605 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,360 sit down in, in the BBC newsroom. 606 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,680 And I never, never take that for granted. 607 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,000 I think there's a huge privilege in being given a role in an 608 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,000 organisation like the BBC to help all of our different 609 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,560 audiences, listeners, readers, viewers understand the world 610 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,880 that they live in. That's a hugely privileged role 611 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,120 to to perform. And my small part in that feels 612 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,360 something that I absolutely relished doing because I know as 613 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,680 a consumer that when the news works for me, it's helping me 614 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,000 understand my world. It's helping me understand an 615 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,120 event or an issue. And when done well, there's a 616 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,240 huge value to that. And I remain, you know, 617 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,880 passionate about the importance of journalism in providing that. 618 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,680 And then I think as a presenter, one of the great privileges is 619 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,080 that you get to ask questions often of people who are in power 620 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,000 or right in the middle of an important story. 621 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,800 And being the person who on behalf of the audience is 622 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,840 actually putting the questions to those people is always a 623 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,640 privilege. And I never take it for granted. 624 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,720 And I've been lucky enough to present for the region of 20 625 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,080 years now, but I never ever tyre of the privilege position that 626 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,480 comes from sitting in a studio or, you know, if you're 627 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,520 reporting, you know, on a particular story and you, you 628 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,960 get to speak to the person in the middle of it. 629 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,160 And this is a person often that your audiences will want to hear 630 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,840 from. And you're lucky enough to be 631 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,720 the one answer asking the questions. 632 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,400 And that, you know, that too, is a huge privilege and, and one 633 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,560 that still feels as, as, as important and as, as something 634 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,920 that I'm deeply committed to as it as it was when I started 635 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,760 doing it 20 years ago. Is there anything else you 636 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,600 wanted to add? Any other last bits of advice 637 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,720 you'd pass on to project professionals? 638 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,800 Well, I think that the thing that I feel very strongly is 639 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,160 I've already said that communication really matters. 640 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,480 And it's worth taking time to think about how you communicate 641 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,880 both in the smaller moments, such as in a quick meeting or an 642 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,120 e-mail, up to the bigger moments where you're having to present a 643 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,600 large plan or make the case to a large group of people that 644 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,080 something should happen. It's just worth taking the time 645 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,520 over it. The second thing I would say is 646 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,760 that, you know, if you open up my book, of course, it's however 647 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,960 many pages long, 300 or more pages long, full of advice. 648 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,400 And it could be easy to pick this up and think, goodness, 649 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,440 this is an awful lot to take on. But what I would say is that 650 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,080 there are lots of things that we can. 651 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,840 You don't have to do a six month training course to improve how 652 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,080 you communicate. It's possible to sit down and 653 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,159 go, OK, what one thing could I do differently that I think will 654 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:20,080 improve how I managed to get across the information I'm 655 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,040 trying to communicate? There are things that we can 656 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,719 adjust very quickly and very simply, and they can make a 657 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,520 large difference. So, for example, if you send 658 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,880 lots of emails, are your emails as short and as easy to consume 659 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,239 as possible? If they aren't, perhaps there 660 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,600 are ways that you can experiment with the formatting or the 661 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,080 writing which makes them easier to consume. 662 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,040 That might just be one thing you could try. 663 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,199 Or if you're going into a meeting tomorrow, could you try 664 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,960 using my three lists of what information do I want to pass 665 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,560 on? What information do I want from 666 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,120 the people in the meeting? What actions do I hope will 667 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,440 agree by the end of the meeting? You can just experiment with 668 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,520 small adjustments in how you're communicating. 669 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,000 And that can be something you can take on tomorrow. 670 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,720 And if it goes well, you can add to it and become more and more 671 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,040 adventurous. But don't feel it's all or 672 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,360 nothing. This isn't either you spend 673 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,680 months completely reimagining how you communicate or nothing 674 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,720 at all. I hope what comes across in the 675 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,400 book is there are lots of small things that we can do to 676 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,280 incrementally improve how we communicate. 677 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,440 And in my experience, quite quickly you will feel the 678 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,760 difference in how people are responding to you and and how 679 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,640 well people are understanding what you're trying to pass on to 680 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,600 them. And that, of course, is a good 681 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,800 feeling. Ross and really wise, wise, 682 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,200 thanks so much for your time. I know you're clearly in a very 683 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:39,520 busy kind of new cycle at the moment, so it's been a pleasure 684 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,000 to talk to you. Wish you the best luck with the 685 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,520 book and everything else you're working on. 686 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:45,960 Thank you very much for having me, really appreciate it. 687 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,560 Thanks again to Ross for joining us and to you for listening to 688 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,160 the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for 689 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,960 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 690 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,520 podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 691 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,840 with your comments, feedback, and suggestions by emailing us 692 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,640 at APM Podcast at thinkpublishing.co.uk. 693 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,680 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 694 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,080 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 695 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,560 visit APM org UK.