1 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,440 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,800 the project profession. My name is Emma Devita and I'm 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,200 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,240 in this podcast for exploring the world of systems thinking. 5 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,200 Ever been daunted about the term or what it might mean exactly? 6 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,200 Then we will enlighten you. Helping me explain everything 7 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,680 and how you can put system syncing into practise and what 8 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,000 advantages it gives you in your projects are the coauthors of 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,400 APM's new guide, Doing the Right Project Using Systems Thinking 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,440 to Select the Right Project, which you can buy on the APM 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:56,600 website to apm.org.uk. So joining me are Andrew Wright, 12 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,920 leader of the APM Systems Thinking Interest Network and 13 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:04,120 managing partner of Dynamic Technologies, Cesar Rendora, 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,560 head of engineering major programmes at Jacobs and Esther 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,760 Bennett, head of programme and PMO at Thalas UK. 16 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,680 Listen on for what systems thinking is, how it improves 17 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,080 project outcomes and how it can benefit you as a project 18 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,000 professional. So let's get to it. 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,920 So why don't we begin by each of you telling us a little bit 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,720 about your role and where your interest in systems thinking 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,160 comes from. Andrew, do you want to kick off? 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,240 Well, I'm a project consultant. I've been for a long time now. 23 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,480 I'm a mentor and for project managers, programme managers and 24 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:45,320 university teacher on occasion. My systems thinking stems from 25 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:51,040 my education of the life scientist, brain biochemistry, 26 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,160 moving on to working on AI and holistic thinking in Defence. 27 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:03,680 The The thing is that in life sciences and earth sciences as 28 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,400 well, you learn that everything is about interconnecting, 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,720 interacting systems. And it just meant that during 30 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,880 school and university, that's the way I started to think 31 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,760 anyway. OK. 32 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,360 Thank you. Esther, tell us a bit about your 33 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,000 current role and where you're interested in systems thinking 34 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,960 comes. From so my current role as head 35 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,520 of Programme and PMO at Telus UK, I'm involved in a lot of 36 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,720 complex systems that my interest in system thinking I guess 37 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,320 started with my career. One of the things that I did 38 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,000 earlier on was looking at whole system paradigms and, and that 39 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,160 sort of give give me an understanding. 40 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,840 I guess at the time we didn't call this system thinking, but 41 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,120 we just did it. Yeah, we're talking maybe a 42 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,440 couple of decades ago before this became a thing to as it is 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,360 today. But yeah, it was in the context 44 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,160 of looking at an entire system from a technical point of view 45 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,800 and understanding the social international interactions 46 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,800 within that. And that has sort of matured my 47 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,840 understanding into where we are today. 48 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:16,760 OK. Thank you. 49 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,240 And Cesar? Hi Emma, I work for Jacobs and I 50 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,000 lead the team of designers. The designs work for 51 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,680 infrastructure projects mostly in the UK but also in my past 52 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,440 career. I also work in overseas 53 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,640 countries and this led me to realise no project really is 54 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,680 quite unique is it requires an understanding of diverse things 55 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,520 in some most of them interrelated and it's really I'm 56 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,800 more into the delivery of projects as well as designing. 57 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:00,600 So I get involved in meeting with clients the the various 58 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,680 approving authorities. Sometimes I participate in 59 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:11,520 public consultation events for planning purposes and and that 60 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,240 led me to one thing to understand more of how to deal 61 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:24,040 with project complex projects and systems thinking got me into 62 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,120 system thinking. When I joined actually 8:00 PM 63 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,320 sometime like 2020 I think as a part of the member of the team 64 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,960 Systems Thinking special interest group, it was called 65 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,640 then with very little knowledge of what systems thinking is all 66 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,600 about, just word that I think, yeah, it must be something about 67 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,080 looking more, more better understanding of complex things 68 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,640 and sort of I joined and I'm still developing my 69 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,400 understanding on that. OK. 70 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,320 So you're all involved in that particular interest network, 71 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,680 can't you? So you've all worked together as 72 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,240 well on doing the right project, which is we'll pursue that as we 73 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,400 talk. But do you know, it might be 74 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,240 really interesting to give listeners an overview or a 75 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,880 definition of what system syncing is, because it sounds 76 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,880 like such a huge thing to get your head around. 77 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,960 And how on earth does it relate to project delivery, project 78 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,240 execution? So I wanted to do, I'd like to 79 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,520 join those dots today as we talk. 80 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,280 So who's going to be brave enough to try and give any brief 81 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,800 explanation of what systems thinking is and what it's 82 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,920 origins are? Andrew, would you like to take 83 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:39,000 on the challenge? Well, systems thinking is a bit 84 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,080 of, it's a bit of a misnomer. It's, it sounds very scientific, 85 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,440 but it's, it's about understanding that nothing is 86 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,560 just individual bits that, that don't interact with each other, 87 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,560 that that everything in life is built up of interacting systems 88 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,000 of activity. If you'll think about a car, 89 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,080 it's got all sorts of interacting bits systems in it, 90 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:06,040 in the brain. We've got all sorts of different 91 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:11,200 systems that cause allows us to, to walk in a straight line to, 92 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,160 to drink water and tap our heads at the same time. 93 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,520 Everything in there is is complicated sets of systems 94 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:24,520 interacting with each other. And one of the things we can see 95 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,080 from from behaviour and human behaviour is when those the way 96 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,560 those systems behave together can produce unpredictable 97 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,920 results. And I think they my my favourite 98 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,800 example of system multiple systems leading to loose screen 99 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,640 of death is of course, computer operating systems. 100 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,600 You know, you have to, you have to reboot them after a while 101 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,600 because they, they simply get their, get themselves knotted, 102 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,880 absolutely stuffed. So, so systems thinking is about 103 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,240 understanding that things are dynamic, that that there are 104 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,360 complicated sets of things interacting in different ways. 105 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,800 And the most complicated of all those are people. 106 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,320 And in terms of its origins as a discipline, it dates back into 107 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,600 the last century. And I'm sure ESTA can give a, a 108 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,960 better background on that than I can. 109 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,400 As I said, my, my interest comes at it from the fact that in life 110 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,160 sciences, you just see everything naturally as systems. 111 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,920 It's, it's not a it's, it's a natural way to understand things 112 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,920 from life science. So why don't you tell us a bit 113 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,760 more about the origins of how, I mean, how you first came across 114 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,720 it as well? Yeah, I guess I can. 115 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,480 I can probably respond from the origins in my, in my perspective 116 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:54,160 and how I sort of came across systems thinking as an approach 117 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,560 in the environment that I have been working on, which is 118 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,000 largely complex projects, you know, that sort of take quite a 119 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:10,400 long time and they're quite interactional in terms of the 120 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,760 technical aspects as well as the people aspect. 121 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,440 Problem solving and changes are quite dynamic. 122 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,840 And as Andrew has mentioned there, systems thinking is about 123 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,080 approaching a context of a system from a, a dynamic 124 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,640 approach. So my initial interactions with 125 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,039 this approach was in the light of problem solving, defining 126 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:37,760 requirements, understanding what the stakeholder is after and 127 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,919 this tools and methods and approaches that we took on at 128 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:45,480 the time to try and make sense of this dynamic complex 129 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,840 environment that was evolving quite rapidly. 130 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,560 But as I said earlier on, the approaches that we were using 131 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,360 was a system thinking approach, but we didn't call it that. 132 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,400 So the tools that we were using at the time, whether it's mind 133 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:04,000 mapping, whether it's casual loops, they they were helping to 134 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,400 understand the complexity that we were dealing with and still 135 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,960 are. But it's understanding the 136 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,960 overall system behaviour, the dynamics that human interaction 137 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,800 brings into that and the widest take hold environment as well 138 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,720 and how the two come together. So which tools and approaches we 139 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,040 need to use for different aspects is how I first started 140 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:27,800 my journey of on systems thinking. 141 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,480 And yeah, it's interesting because there isn't A1 size fits 142 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,160 all definition to this. But I guess maybe the keywords 143 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,440 that you will hear mentioned in any definition is about the 144 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,160 dynamism of of a complex system and the fact that it's evolving 145 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,800 quite rapidly. And you need to make sense of 146 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,360 that with multiple lenses and not just a technical view or a 147 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,760 humanistic view. OK, that's a lot to take in. 148 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,240 I think the question I'd like to ask is someone who's outside of 149 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,000 this is the intention then. It's not to increase the 150 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,520 complexity, it's to make sense of the complexity that exists 151 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,480 already. Absolutely 11. 152 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:16,280 OK. Susan, is there anything you'd 153 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,800 like to add to that? Yes, so for me systems thinking 154 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,120 is more related to us as an engineering consultant and is 155 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,720 looking at problems and and understanding how to solve that 156 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,600 problem. So, so first of all, we look at 157 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:39,560 because of my background at an issue more on the technical 158 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:41,920 aspect, how to provide the solution. 159 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:47,160 But as as you dig deeper, you realise that it's not just the 160 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,280 purely technical aspect. You need to consider how would a 161 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,360 certain project would impact a community, the environment and, 162 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,520 and in fact, in deserving that, that solution, you need to 163 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,760 ensure that the client actually is satisfied with the the 164 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,840 outcome and the the, the intended users of that, that 165 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,920 that what if that's a project, if it's a railway project or a 166 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,080 road project, and whether it would be beneficial. 167 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,600 So she, so that's how I look at systems thinking is sort of 168 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,440 understanding that whole process right from the beginning of 169 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,160 looking at the conception of a project with developing that 170 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,600 and, and providing that, delivering that solution all the 171 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,840 way and, and ensuring that there is it is a successful 1. 172 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:37,960 So I think I think the, you know, both Esther and, and 173 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,440 Andrew already defined it. So I think it's more the 174 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,640 holistic view and, and, and there's always this cause and 175 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,120 effect relationship in, in any, any consideration of a system 176 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,360 from project point of view, in particular, you know, you, 177 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:58,920 there's, there's a pull from the constraint of the project in 178 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,480 terms of financial costs. And then there's a need to also 179 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,760 to perhaps to consider the time aspect, deliver as quick as 180 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,040 possible and to, to equality and other considerations. 181 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,680 Nowadays, we also include sustainable solutions and and 182 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:15,160 and other matters. Yes. 183 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,040 So really it's about understanding the bigger picture 184 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,360 on how the project fits within that, I think, which sounds 185 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,920 entirely sensible to me, but it must be challenging the way that 186 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,760 project management might usually be done. 187 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,680 I mean, how does systems thinking relate to the 188 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:35,600 prevailing way of thinking about projects or how prevalent is 189 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,520 systems thinking across projects? 190 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,360 I don't know like who who would like to start answering that 191 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,480 one. I'm happy to take that. 192 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,400 I can, I can give us a start for it. 193 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:52,280 I guess in the context of project delivery, traditionally 194 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,080 the approaches that we have and the tools that we have that that 195 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,960 sort of set the project manager and his team or their team on 196 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,640 the path of delivery, they're quite linear in the approach. 197 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,640 You know you start from point A and you finish here and here's 198 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,480 your budget and these are the requirements very clinical in 199 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,240 the approach. But what system thinking does is 200 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,880 looking at that entity called the project, but in the 201 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,440 framework of the environment within which it's being 202 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,400 delivered or being requested by the customer. 203 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,680 And what are the underlying factors that are not covered 204 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,560 within that very clinical approach that, you know, the 205 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:34,960 said team have been given. So what, what systems thinking 206 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,960 does it disrupts all that? And, and it's, you know, Cesar 207 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,680 said, you start peeling the onion layers to understand what 208 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,880 does this customer really, really want that they haven't 209 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,840 told you? And, and within the 210 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,680 organisation, what is there to help us deliver that we're not 211 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,000 aware of? Yeah. 212 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,680 And it's interesting that you say clinical because is systems 213 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,720 thinking better equipped? Is it a better approach for the 214 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,280 kind of messy world that projects get done in? 215 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,080 Yeah, projects can be messy, I think as as textbooks. 216 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,240 So is it one of the benefits of taking a systems thinking 217 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:08,720 approach? I'll know we'll dive into that 218 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,480 later. But it sounds to me as though 219 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,640 it's very well matched with what life and business in the world 220 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,000 is like at the moment, constantly changing, nothing's 221 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,600 for certain. Is that one of these appealing 222 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,520 aspects of it, Esther? Very much so. 223 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,640 It's understanding that projects are never delivered in a 224 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,520 statics, you know, a static mode there. 225 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,280 There will be change, there will be issues, there will be 226 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,480 problems, but it's always bearing in mind that we have to 227 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,000 deliver as a project community, we have to deliver to the 228 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,520 customer's requirements. If the customer needs or has 229 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,880 expressed a desire to have an infrastructure built, it's 230 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,480 understanding how best to to understand the needs and deliver 231 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,960 to the customer's point. OK. 232 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,600 Thank you, Cesar. Anything you'd like to add? 233 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,160 For me, it's again relating to projects. 234 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:08,720 It's important that everyone in the project shares the same 235 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,040 understanding of what, what the goal is. 236 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,920 And and that's from not just from the client and the 237 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,360 stakeholder, but also the project team and and systems 238 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360 thinking allows you, gives you that tool to that. 239 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,960 I should be enabled to do that because in my limited knowledge 240 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,880 of systems thinking so far, you actually create some sort of a 241 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,360 graphical representation. A model of what? 242 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,000 What? When I say you, I mean the team 243 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,480 collectively produced a graphical representation of the 244 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:52,640 understanding of how the system performs or acts in a project 245 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,120 environment. For example, you know, what's in 246 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,400 a project, There's how, what, what other, whether the, the, 247 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,160 the, the, the stakeholders, the, the, the, the community that 248 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:07,560 will be impacted, the, the, the client side or the, the people 249 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,160 that needs to provide approval as well as the potential users 250 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,920 later on. So it's really basically trying 251 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,560 to create that understands that right from the beginning of the 252 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,000 project, you try and ensure that you and your client had the same 253 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,080 understanding and you communicate the same 254 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,240 understanding to your team and, and how the, the various factors 255 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,560 that relate will later on, will, will could have an impact or 256 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,920 influence how the project progresses are interrelated. 257 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,600 So creating that understanding I think is key and systems 258 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,840 thinking provided too, because it it is essentially, as I said, 259 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,520 a, a, a graphical way of representing, representing a 260 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,680 collective understanding of situation. 261 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,080 OK, well that's really useful because it sounds to me though, 262 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,080 it's a great way to achieve clarity. 263 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,040 I mean, what is the problem you're trying to solve, how 264 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:03,120 you're going to go about doing it? 265 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,880 What are the impact, what the impacts might be? 266 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,480 Well, I'd like to ask you what benefits system syncing brings. 267 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,319 You've already touched on that, but I just wondered, I mean, do 268 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,640 you feel that system syncing is growing in importance right now 269 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,720 and that project professionals need to take more of an interest 270 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,319 in it? I know it's in the APM Body of 271 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,400 Knowledge, AIDS Edition, so it's definitely recognised as being 272 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,839 something very important for project professionals to know 273 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:30,640 about, but do you think it's of particular value right now in 274 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,840 terms of the projects and programmes that are being 275 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,880 conducted? Yeah, absolutely. 276 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,160 It's and the reason is because the world is getting a lot more 277 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,720 complicated and and that's making things more complex. 278 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,320 And the result of this is that more and more projects, despite 279 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,600 the best efforts of of APM and professional bodies and 280 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,440 education, more and more projects are running into 281 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,920 unplanned unforecast adverse events. 282 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:10,000 So systems thinking really helps that foresight, you know, left 283 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,000 shifting or front end loading to do the analysis upfront that 284 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,680 that that actually gives the clarity that you talk about as 285 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,440 to what could go wrong, what what could go right, what are 286 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,360 the opportunities and particularly in thoroughly 287 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,840 understanding the problem you're trying to solve before you jump 288 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,600 to a solution. So thank you. 289 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,520 I guess what I'm dying to find out more about is how you 290 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,160 actually use system syncing and at what point. 291 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,880 I know the subtitle for doing the right projects is is using a 292 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,320 system syncing approach to select successful projects. 293 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,600 So imagine you start using system syncing before the 294 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,840 project comes into being. So it'd be useful for each of 295 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,680 you to give you an idea of how you put this into practise. 296 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,560 What is it exactly? And I know we can't go through 297 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,760 all the tools and techniques that are in the guide, but if 298 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,360 you perhaps people kind of unfamiliar with this, how do you 299 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:08,120 actually put this into practise? So Caesar, you sound like you're 300 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,200 quite new to this world, so you're probably closest to 301 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,040 grappling of what it is and how you put it into practise. 302 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,760 So are you happy to show what works? 303 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:17,600 Sure. OK. 304 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:22,720 So again I'm grounding it basis of the work I do as a consulting 305 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,440 engineer. And and so when we look at 306 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:33,120 projects, we first of all we, we look, we, we consult with the 307 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,080 client, we discuss with the client what are their goals and 308 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,200 it's always about lead towards the intended benefit of the 309 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,720 project. So you, you start the beginning, 310 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,440 what does the client want? But also you're looking ahead 311 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,360 and saying it's OK, What, what do you really want to achieve? 312 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:53,120 What is the intended benefit? And, and, and that requires 313 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:59,400 that's, that's understanding what we call stakeholders, the, 314 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,560 the, the community, the people, the use of the will be affected 315 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,840 by, by this project eventually. And, and, and that's that's 316 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,320 where a system's thinking, I feel in my practise. 317 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,280 Is very useful. First is understanding who those 318 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:24,400 stakeholders are not just a client, the users, but also the 319 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,240 various, the various entities that would be involved from 320 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,920 approval from who will deliver the work as well as the, the 321 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,440 people that living in the community that will will be 322 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,080 affected during construction that also will benefit when the 323 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,560 construction is finished. Each of those I call 324 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,080 stakeholders will have certain needs and wants and some of them 325 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,720 will have certain more more influence and power in terms of 326 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,760 how the project could be, could be successful. 327 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,360 I've been involved in a lot of public consultation relating to 328 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,000 planning in of major projects in the UK. 329 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,920 We call it development consent order. 330 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:09,320 The the formal process and that that led me to appreciate the 331 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:16,040 wide view of of of various committees that need to be 332 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,400 consulted as well as the need to be taken into account. 333 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,480 The views of which could eventually put the grant project 334 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,720 into a halt, but also encourage others to be more supportive and 335 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,320 and and and and and and encourage the the project should 336 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:39,360 go ahead as soon as possible. So for me, a system thinking in, 337 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:43,040 in practise is about understanding that link between 338 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,320 what the proponents of project, the clients want to achieve as a 339 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,120 eventual outcome and the benefit to the users. 340 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,120 And, and, and, and me as a, as a consulting engineer trying to 341 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,600 help that make sure that that becomes happens as a success. 342 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,040 But by using system thinking, for example, to understand 343 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,560 stakeholders, the various stakeholders that will be 344 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,800 affected and make sure that we we engage with them and we and, 345 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,960 and collaborate with them throughout the the stages of the 346 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,480 project from the beginning right away to the end. 347 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,680 So what? How do you do that in practise? 348 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,320 Is there a particular tool you use to help achieve? 349 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,920 This if you could. Just give one example. 11 aspect 350 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,560 would be to use in in in project management, the people who are 351 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,920 familiar with stakeholder mapping in systems thinking. 352 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,720 We have a tool that is actually a subject about either webinar 353 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,720 and I've already presented in some of the ATM webinars called 354 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,840 the Critical Systems Heuristics tool. 355 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,240 It's basically asking several questions and this particular 2 356 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,840 questions, typical 12 questions of what is the objective? 357 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,720 Who is the intended benefit of this this project? 358 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,840 Who is in control of the conditions that would enable 359 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,840 this project success? Who who carries the knowledge or 360 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,000 expertise to make this happen? Who will be impacted? 361 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,120 So you, you go through those various questions as part of the 362 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:23,120 process, one as a having understanding of the, what the 363 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:28,040 client wants and also as a project team in order to provide 364 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,800 the solution that will address those questions and the 365 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,880 responses to those questions. And that's how basically how we 366 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,520 did. So my, my role is basically to 367 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,280 provide solution to an infrastructure problem, but I 368 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,920 can't just provide a technical solution. 369 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,640 That's, that's, I feel that can be built. 370 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,280 But also you need to address the, the, the views of various 371 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,000 stakeholders. So ask various questions and 372 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,160 those questions are generated by the, the team I'm involved in 373 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,040 who are subject matter experts in their own right. 374 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,080 Because a single person and a very, even a very experienced 375 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,720 project manager doesn't know everything. 376 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,520 So it, it encourages a more collaborative approach, engaging 377 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,400 everyone within the team and, and, and sometimes also 378 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,760 including the client representative to, to 379 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,440 understand, do we really understand the, the objective 380 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,920 and, and the potential impact and, and the benefits and, and, 381 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,360 and then come up with a solution that addresses those as much as 382 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,680 possible. Sometimes it cannot be really 383 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,200 satisfy everybody. It's not, it's not possible, but 384 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,120 you try to maximise the benefits as much as you can. 385 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,760 What's impressing me about what you're saying is it's very much 386 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,840 about the people's side of things. 387 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,720 It's speaking to people, it's collaborative, it's finding out 388 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,960 what people want, what potential problems could be. 389 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,920 Is this different to how you would approach your 390 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,960 infrastructure projects without using system syncing? 391 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,280 Or the systems syncing accentuate with how the best way 392 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,120 to work out all these different pieces and how they might fit 393 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,400 together. Systems thinking for me, it 394 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,440 provides that framework and various tools. 395 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,160 So there's no one tool that's applicable to everything. 396 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,200 So system thinking enables you, gives you that that framework 397 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,840 various tools that's available course of loop diagrams is one 398 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,600 of them. But also also the recognition 399 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,840 that I mean for me as a project professional, that I, I don't 400 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,920 carry all the knowledge and and does don't have all the answers. 401 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,680 I need to gather a group of individuals within my team and 402 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,840 specialties if necessary from the client side in order to have 403 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,480 a a holistic view of of the problem first of all and then 404 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,680 the the potential solution or options and how those potential 405 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,960 solution could could impact could have a potential impact as 406 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,560 well. Sounds great. 407 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,960 It sounds like it's helping you to do a better job. 408 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,680 Is it hard to start going down the systems thinking route if 409 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,920 you haven't really dipped your toe in it before or, or is it 410 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,240 very much a case of you experiment a little bit with 411 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,280 something before you know you realise that it's really 412 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,600 valuable as. I said, I, I started the system 413 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,840 thinking completely green with, with no, it's just basic 414 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,400 knowledge that maybe this, this will help me look at things 415 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,680 holistically and, and what we did then. 416 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:44,080 And Andrew will remember it was during COVID time, the pandemic. 417 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:52,200 And, and you know, we don't know what pandemic COVID-19 would 418 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,560 mean to the UK and the whole world. 419 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,680 And the team actually decided to use systems thinking, in 420 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,840 particular the, the, the tool we called causal loop diagram to 421 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:08,720 understand what could be the potential impact of a COVID-19 422 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,760 to the UK and, and what are the factors that actually 423 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:21,720 influencing it's potential cure or, or perhaps how long it would 424 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,120 last. And one of the things I 425 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:27,320 remembered vividly is that, you know, we actually came up with 426 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,480 a, a very big diagram, but with cause and effect relationship. 427 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,360 But certainly one of the topic that was highlighted was about 428 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:37,960 remote working, which is now the, the, the main thing that 429 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,320 we, we, we, we're still doing now. 430 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,960 So from very little, no understanding of systems 431 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,080 thinking to being introduced to a technique called causa dub 432 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,920 diagram, I was able to contribute hope meaningful 433 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,840 meaningfully to the discussions and, and, and, and also enabled 434 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:02,640 me to have a better appreciation what COVID-19 could mean to the 435 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:09,760 UKUK and, and, and the, the United Kingdom as well as the 436 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,960 whole world. So it, it just gives you that, 437 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,920 that bigger perspective that for me, perhaps it would have taken 438 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,160 me years and years to understand to and, but bringing the, the, 439 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,880 the, the knowledge of the whole group helped me to do that. 440 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,440 I'll pass it over now to Esther and Andy. 441 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,920 Well, thank you. It's really useful to listen to 442 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,040 your experience. Esther, tell me a bit about how 443 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,520 you've put systems sinking into practise and the kind of 444 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:42,160 benefits it gives you. Yeah, I think for me, I can 445 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,000 answer that into into sort of phrases. 446 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:53,400 One in my current job, systems thinking comes alive at the very 447 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,560 inception of a project. And some of the tools we use 448 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,600 are, you know, just traditional mind mapping or you know, rich 449 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,240 diagrams with the team. As Cesar said, it's getting the 450 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,440 team engaged. But what I have found quite 451 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:13,680 powerful is bringing in some independent members of the 452 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,160 organisation that are not directly involved in the team 453 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,440 delivery because they get to see the blind spots, things that 454 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,920 people haven't thought about. So that that's again, the 455 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,200 powerful element of systems thinking approach where you're 456 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,360 looking at the entire system saying, oh, have we thought 457 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,240 about, you know, somebody if, if, if we're doing an 458 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,400 engineering, which most of the projects are, but you know, 459 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,160 bring somebody who's an administrator, for example, and 460 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,840 just let them come in and for half an hour have the 461 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,360 discussions with them and then see what else can they bring 462 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,040 into the discussions. So this happens right at the 463 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,600 inception before we start even putting schedules together, 464 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,360 before we start decomposing the requirements. 465 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,600 Do we understand the problem? Are we all clear with what the 466 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,360 output is likely to be? Is there anything that has been 467 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,280 missed out? So really just laying it all on 468 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,720 the table and looking at the project as an ecosystem with a 469 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,720 view of delivering a benefit not just to the immediate customer, 470 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,320 but to the business and to the wide environment. 471 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,560 It's about getting the right project defined upfront and 472 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,800 having checkpoints in delivery in the delivery life cycle and 473 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,480 delivery doesn't end when we have finished all the 474 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,600 deliverables. That includes decommissioning 475 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,120 and post delivery support. So making sure, again when I 476 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,040 talk about the project ecosystem, we have absolutely 477 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,200 delivered what was expected by the customer and internally the 478 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,280 benefits have been realised for the business as well. 479 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,880 Yeah, it's making me think about the people's side of projects 480 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,480 and in particular the way you lead projects if you're wanting 481 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,000 to go and take this approach. Because it sounds as though you 482 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,720 want every stakeholder to be able to have their say and and 483 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,040 everyone trying to uncover potential challenges, 484 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,560 uncertainties and risks that are involved. 485 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,080 But for that to happen, you need a particular project culture, 486 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,440 one where people feel as though they can raise difficulties, 487 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,080 that kind of that whole idea of psychological safety and 488 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,920 communication. So Esther, what's your advice? 489 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,600 Am I right in thinking that that it does, it makes you a certain 490 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,160 type of leader if you want to use systems thinking effectively 491 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,160 and, and what might that be? What kind of leader are you and 492 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,280 what kind of culture do you aim to create on a project team? 493 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,920 To to your point, Emma, that the the people aspect in terms of 494 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,400 project delivery systems thinking does challenge some 495 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,360 mindset and behaviours and cultures and organisations. 496 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,560 It's tending towards an open culture to absolutely get to the 497 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,960 root cause and define what the right project is. 498 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,160 How do you do that in real life? Because that's easier said than 499 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,480 done. Absolutely, absolutely. 500 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,640 So one of the things that we encourage where I am and the 501 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,160 work I'm doing at uni as well is, is looking at projects as an 502 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,040 entity and ensuring that we have the right leadership there with 503 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,720 psychological safety at the paramount, at the forefront of 504 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,400 everything. So noting that teams, can this 505 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,840 have those difficult discussions because that's integral to 506 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,680 delivering the project itself. How do you achieve that? 507 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,800 Is it by role modelling it yourself? 508 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,360 Absolutely. For myself, it's been vulnerable 509 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,960 noting, as Cesar said, you know, the project manager, the project 510 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,600 specialist doesn't know everything and allowing others 511 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,840 to fill in the gaps because that is quite key to getting that 512 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,640 full picture. Caesar, is there anything else 513 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,440 you'd like to add around the leadership side of projects when 514 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,760 it comes to systems thinking and the kind of project culture you 515 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,040 need to cultivate in order to make the most of it? 516 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,520 Yes. So at work, what we encourage is 517 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,000 project leaders, project managers to be more 518 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:17,520 collaborative with our team, making sure that we engage 519 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:25,680 everybody and listen to ideas as well as concerns to to make this 520 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,200 happen. Of course, we need to make sure 521 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,600 that there's no blame culture in, in the project and and that 522 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:40,160 everyone is, is, is allowed to express their views and, and, 523 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,320 and be open to, and leaders and managers, be open to 524 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:51,280 suggestions. We, we, it, it comes from, you 525 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,960 know, it's, it's, you can mandate it. 526 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,320 But in our, in our case, it, we actually just encourage to as 527 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,120 leaders to, to, to be the, the example ourselves. 528 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,400 We use the term leadership, leadership shadow. 529 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,480 Well, whatever you say or do is what you practise. 530 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:17,480 And so you, you try to be more open to your team in terms of 531 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,639 how the, the, the, the, the, the project is being viewed by the 532 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:27,760 client and any other issues that are actually sometimes kept by 533 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,800 the management level. But the the members, the the 534 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:37,639 members of the team are also allowed to to know and not just 535 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:42,440 on the commercial aspects, but also in terms of potential 536 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,920 concerns has been expressed by the client in terms of how the 537 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,320 team has been performing. Thank you, Cesar. 538 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,560 Something that's a focus for project managers at the moment 539 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,000 is the idea of, well, AI and humans and how we work together. 540 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,520 And there's a lot of talk about human skills and AI skills. 541 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,160 And Andrew, actually it's something I probably want to put 542 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,880 to you is how does systems thinking affect that? 543 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,320 So is it a great, is it a great way of using AI and what's out 544 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,800 there to inform what's really going on in a project, but also 545 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,240 maximising the kind of human contribution? 546 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,640 I'm talking very general terms, but it's just the way that 547 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,320 people seem to be framing things. 548 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,800 It's, it's this idea that AI brings a set of skills and human 549 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,160 beings another set and we need to work alongside each other. 550 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,920 Just wonder what your take is? AI is, is not intelligence. 551 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,200 What what we have in our heads is real intelligence. 552 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,800 And so I, I see AI as being orthogonal to systems thinking. 553 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,320 Systems thinking is about what goes on inside our heads in 554 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,120 terms of understanding. And AI is, is, is a 555 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,920 productivity, productivity aid. It's, it's a, it's a power tool. 556 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:05,800 So if we are less busy fools by using AI, we have more time to 557 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,160 think and be intelligent. And this is a really important 558 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,320 thing. And so systems thinking is a set 559 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,960 of tools and techniques and a mindset that allows us to think 560 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:22,400 better given that we've got more time resulting from the the time 561 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,360 saving of using AI to to do a better job quicker. 562 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,640 OK, well, I'll move on. Tasking is and we kind of 563 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,480 touched it already, but Cesar, Esther, have you or both of you 564 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,160 got any advice on how to start using system syncing in 565 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,240 projects? If it's something you haven't 566 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:46,280 used before, is it something you can start off with small 567 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,080 experiments, start lightly and then it expands or do you dive 568 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,000 into it straight away and run with it? 569 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,120 Esther, what's your advice? Right. 570 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,120 So for systems thinking in terms of adopting that in a project 571 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,360 delivery context, I'd say to anybody you can start where you 572 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,000 are even as simple as your normal standard meetings or any 573 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,320 major design review or a major project review and the simplest 574 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,560 way of doing it, I'd say it's just challenging the status quo. 575 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,120 Here's a schedule telling me we'll deliver in three weeks 576 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,440 time. Let's just understand what that 577 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,880 means. Has is everyone brought into 578 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,280 that deliverable? Have we understood the context 579 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,360 and what the output will look like? 580 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:35,120 But if somebody was speaking this project from the start, I'd 581 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,240 say understand the requirements before you start putting a 582 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:41,400 schedule together, before you take those requirements and 583 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,800 deploy them on doors. Really capture the requirements 584 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,640 in the setting. Brainstorm them to make sure 585 00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:52,120 everybody understands what we're delivering before you start into 586 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,480 delivery. Andrew, is there any advice 587 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,880 you'd give about starting out with system syncing? 588 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,680 It's difficult for me because I, I should say my, my educational 589 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,960 background makes, makes me think in terms of systems anyway. 590 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,440 But the, the simple, simple thing I would say to people is 591 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,360 by the guide, by the guide we've just issued, just published. 592 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,120 And it's, it's, it's in three parts. 593 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,320 Part A is meant to be read, read through and it's, it's quite 594 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,720 short, quite easy to read and it tells you about what, what 595 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,880 systems thinking is and why you should be interested in it as a 596 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,640 project manager. Part B is, is, is a reference 597 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:41,280 section written down by topics, topics that you can just dip 598 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,160 into. So when you're thinking about 599 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,840 that topic, you can read a few practical guides, suggested 600 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,000 tools to to apply, and then part C, that is, it's a compendium of 601 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,480 tools and techniques and references and where to find out 602 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,880 more information. So we've got 20, at least 20 603 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,240 different tools and techniques in that, in that part C. 604 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:11,680 So that that's honestly, that's very simple advice how to get 605 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,160 into systems thinking by the guide. 606 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,280 What was the hardest thing, Cesar? 607 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,640 Because you put these into practise not that long ago and I 608 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,600 wondered what would be the the hardest thing. 609 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,480 Some unexpectedly hard. For me, I think it's it's just 610 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,240 the initial perception of trying to get it started. 611 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,560 You know, systems thinking can be confused of different things. 612 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,440 You know, some in my earlier thinking, I thought it was 613 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,560 similar to systems engineering, the the more, more looking into 614 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,200 how the technical aspects of a project is verified and 615 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,600 validated, but actually it's actually a much broader than 616 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,520 that. So I think as you get deeper 617 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,360 into your understanding of what systems thinking is, you really 618 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,800 realise, you get, get realise how how how beneficial it is 619 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,440 from the wider function of a project manager. 620 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,640 I really. Encourage colleagues to to get 621 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,600 started and and start to apply it. 622 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,280 I myself still learning on on the subject, but I find it very 623 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,520 beneficial indeed. Can I Perhaps a good way to wrap 624 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,360 up would be to ask each of you for the one key take away you'd 625 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,840 like listeners to go away with to think about redaction to take 626 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,000 apart from buying a copy the guide obviously. 627 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,440 Andrew, would you like to start? The takeaway is that you will be 628 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,200 more successful as a project manager in in delivering 629 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,440 customer satisfaction if you think systemically, because you 630 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,600 will understand the problem to be solved better. 631 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,440 You will understand better how the solution is going to meet 632 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:55,360 that problem, and you will forecast and foresee unexpected 633 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,000 nasties that would rob you of success early enough to do 634 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,200 something about it. And who wouldn't want that? 635 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:03,400 That's fantastic. OK. 636 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,720 Esther, what would your key takeaway be? 637 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,640 I guess for me it's knowing that system thinking in a project 638 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,920 delivery context is not just about tools and approaches and 639 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:21,960 methodologies, it's changing behaviours and mindsets and you 640 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,520 know, being being willing to take in more risk in the 641 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,160 uncertainty that is within a complex project environment. 642 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,760 And Caesar, what would be your closing thought? 643 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:40,320 Systems thinking is increasingly becoming a recognised essential 644 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,160 skills for all project professionals in in fact, the 645 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,840 World Economic Forum 2025 recognised systems thinking of 646 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,520 one of the core skills that companies in the 2030 should be 647 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,720 trying to have for for their employees. 648 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:00,480 So that's already recognised in the various the institutions 649 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,880 that I belong to, the institution of civil engineers 650 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,080 recognise that as well for practising engineers. 651 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:12,120 And so, you know, encourage you to get to know more about it. 652 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,640 Join us at the Interest Systems Thinking Interest Network in APM 653 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,520 if you want to know more, because I think it it will. 654 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,680 I am convinced that we will help you deliver projects 655 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,120 successfully. OK, well, listen, that just 656 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,560 leads me to thank each of you for your time and your very 657 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,200 valuable advice and thoughts around system syncing. 658 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,520 And I do urge everyone listening to go and buy a guide today. 659 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,440 So thank you very much for your time. 660 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,880 Thanks again. Thank you. 661 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,800 Thank you, Emma. Hey, Emma. 662 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,720 Thanks again to Andrew Susan Esther for joining us and to you 663 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:51,440 for listening to the APM Podcast. 664 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,480 If you'd like to buy a copy of the new guide, Doing the Right 665 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,600 Project Using System Syncing, to select the right project, please 666 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,840 go to theonlineapmbookshop@apm.org.uk/book 667 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,440 Hyphen Shop. And don't forget to look out for 668 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,320 more episodes or to rating reviewers. 669 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,480 Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch 670 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,640 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 671 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:22,040 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. And Spotify users, please do 672 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,480 also leave us your comments. This podcast has been brought to 673 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,080 you by APM, the chartered body for the roject Rofession. 674 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,640 For more information on APM, visit apmorg.uk.