Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma Devita and I'm
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
in this podcast for exploring the world of systems thinking.
Ever been daunted about the term or what it might mean exactly?
Then we will enlighten you. Helping me explain everything
and how you can put system syncing into practise and what
advantages it gives you in your projects are the coauthors of
APM's new guide, Doing the Right Project Using Systems Thinking
to Select the Right Project, which you can buy on the APM
website to apm.org.uk. So joining me are Andrew Wright,
leader of the APM Systems Thinking Interest Network and
managing partner of Dynamic Technologies, Cesar Rendora,
head of engineering major programmes at Jacobs and Esther
Bennett, head of programme and PMO at Thalas UK.
Listen on for what systems thinking is, how it improves
project outcomes and how it can benefit you as a project
professional. So let's get to it.
So why don't we begin by each of you telling us a little bit
about your role and where your interest in systems thinking
comes from. Andrew, do you want to kick off?
Well, I'm a project consultant. I've been for a long time now.
I'm a mentor and for project managers, programme managers and
university teacher on occasion. My systems thinking stems from
my education of the life scientist, brain biochemistry,
moving on to working on AI and holistic thinking in Defence.
The The thing is that in life sciences and earth sciences as
well, you learn that everything is about interconnecting,
interacting systems. And it just meant that during
school and university, that's the way I started to think
anyway. OK.
Thank you. Esther, tell us a bit about your
current role and where you're interested in systems thinking
comes. From so my current role as head
of Programme and PMO at Telus UK, I'm involved in a lot of
complex systems that my interest in system thinking I guess
started with my career. One of the things that I did
earlier on was looking at whole system paradigms and, and that
sort of give give me an understanding.
I guess at the time we didn't call this system thinking, but
we just did it. Yeah, we're talking maybe a
couple of decades ago before this became a thing to as it is
today. But yeah, it was in the context
of looking at an entire system from a technical point of view
and understanding the social international interactions
within that. And that has sort of matured my
understanding into where we are today.
OK. Thank you.
And Cesar? Hi Emma, I work for Jacobs and I
lead the team of designers. The designs work for
infrastructure projects mostly in the UK but also in my past
career. I also work in overseas
countries and this led me to realise no project really is
quite unique is it requires an understanding of diverse things
in some most of them interrelated and it's really I'm
more into the delivery of projects as well as designing.
So I get involved in meeting with clients the the various
approving authorities. Sometimes I participate in
public consultation events for planning purposes and and that
led me to one thing to understand more of how to deal
with project complex projects and systems thinking got me into
system thinking. When I joined actually 8:00 PM
sometime like 2020 I think as a part of the member of the team
Systems Thinking special interest group, it was called
then with very little knowledge of what systems thinking is all
about, just word that I think, yeah, it must be something about
looking more, more better understanding of complex things
and sort of I joined and I'm still developing my
understanding on that. OK.
So you're all involved in that particular interest network,
can't you? So you've all worked together as
well on doing the right project, which is we'll pursue that as we
talk. But do you know, it might be
really interesting to give listeners an overview or a
definition of what system syncing is, because it sounds
like such a huge thing to get your head around.
And how on earth does it relate to project delivery, project
execution? So I wanted to do, I'd like to
join those dots today as we talk.
So who's going to be brave enough to try and give any brief
explanation of what systems thinking is and what it's
origins are? Andrew, would you like to take
on the challenge? Well, systems thinking is a bit
of, it's a bit of a misnomer. It's, it sounds very scientific,
but it's, it's about understanding that nothing is
just individual bits that, that don't interact with each other,
that that everything in life is built up of interacting systems
of activity. If you'll think about a car,
it's got all sorts of interacting bits systems in it,
in the brain. We've got all sorts of different
systems that cause allows us to, to walk in a straight line to,
to drink water and tap our heads at the same time.
Everything in there is is complicated sets of systems
interacting with each other. And one of the things we can see
from from behaviour and human behaviour is when those the way
those systems behave together can produce unpredictable
results. And I think they my my favourite
example of system multiple systems leading to loose screen
of death is of course, computer operating systems.
You know, you have to, you have to reboot them after a while
because they, they simply get their, get themselves knotted,
absolutely stuffed. So, so systems thinking is about
understanding that things are dynamic, that that there are
complicated sets of things interacting in different ways.
And the most complicated of all those are people.
And in terms of its origins as a discipline, it dates back into
the last century. And I'm sure ESTA can give a, a
better background on that than I can.
As I said, my, my interest comes at it from the fact that in life
sciences, you just see everything naturally as systems.
It's, it's not a it's, it's a natural way to understand things
from life science. So why don't you tell us a bit
more about the origins of how, I mean, how you first came across
it as well? Yeah, I guess I can.
I can probably respond from the origins in my, in my perspective
and how I sort of came across systems thinking as an approach
in the environment that I have been working on, which is
largely complex projects, you know, that sort of take quite a
long time and they're quite interactional in terms of the
technical aspects as well as the people aspect.
Problem solving and changes are quite dynamic.
And as Andrew has mentioned there, systems thinking is about
approaching a context of a system from a, a dynamic
approach. So my initial interactions with
this approach was in the light of problem solving, defining
requirements, understanding what the stakeholder is after and
this tools and methods and approaches that we took on at
the time to try and make sense of this dynamic complex
environment that was evolving quite rapidly.
But as I said earlier on, the approaches that we were using
was a system thinking approach, but we didn't call it that.
So the tools that we were using at the time, whether it's mind
mapping, whether it's casual loops, they they were helping to
understand the complexity that we were dealing with and still
are. But it's understanding the
overall system behaviour, the dynamics that human interaction
brings into that and the widest take hold environment as well
and how the two come together. So which tools and approaches we
need to use for different aspects is how I first started
my journey of on systems thinking.
And yeah, it's interesting because there isn't A1 size fits
all definition to this. But I guess maybe the keywords
that you will hear mentioned in any definition is about the
dynamism of of a complex system and the fact that it's evolving
quite rapidly. And you need to make sense of
that with multiple lenses and not just a technical view or a
humanistic view. OK, that's a lot to take in.
I think the question I'd like to ask is someone who's outside of
this is the intention then. It's not to increase the
complexity, it's to make sense of the complexity that exists
already. Absolutely 11.
OK. Susan, is there anything you'd
like to add to that? Yes, so for me systems thinking
is more related to us as an engineering consultant and is
looking at problems and and understanding how to solve that
problem. So, so first of all, we look at
because of my background at an issue more on the technical
aspect, how to provide the solution.
But as as you dig deeper, you realise that it's not just the
purely technical aspect. You need to consider how would a
certain project would impact a community, the environment and,
and in fact, in deserving that, that solution, you need to
ensure that the client actually is satisfied with the the
outcome and the the, the intended users of that, that
that what if that's a project, if it's a railway project or a
road project, and whether it would be beneficial.
So she, so that's how I look at systems thinking is sort of
understanding that whole process right from the beginning of
looking at the conception of a project with developing that
and, and providing that, delivering that solution all the
way and, and ensuring that there is it is a successful 1.
So I think I think the, you know, both Esther and, and
Andrew already defined it. So I think it's more the
holistic view and, and, and there's always this cause and
effect relationship in, in any, any consideration of a system
from project point of view, in particular, you know, you,
there's, there's a pull from the constraint of the project in
terms of financial costs. And then there's a need to also
to perhaps to consider the time aspect, deliver as quick as
possible and to, to equality and other considerations.
Nowadays, we also include sustainable solutions and and
and other matters. Yes.
So really it's about understanding the bigger picture
on how the project fits within that, I think, which sounds
entirely sensible to me, but it must be challenging the way that
project management might usually be done.
I mean, how does systems thinking relate to the
prevailing way of thinking about projects or how prevalent is
systems thinking across projects?
I don't know like who who would like to start answering that
one. I'm happy to take that.
I can, I can give us a start for it.
I guess in the context of project delivery, traditionally
the approaches that we have and the tools that we have that that
sort of set the project manager and his team or their team on
the path of delivery, they're quite linear in the approach.
You know you start from point A and you finish here and here's
your budget and these are the requirements very clinical in
the approach. But what system thinking does is
looking at that entity called the project, but in the
framework of the environment within which it's being
delivered or being requested by the customer.
And what are the underlying factors that are not covered
within that very clinical approach that, you know, the
said team have been given. So what, what systems thinking
does it disrupts all that? And, and it's, you know, Cesar
said, you start peeling the onion layers to understand what
does this customer really, really want that they haven't
told you? And, and within the
organisation, what is there to help us deliver that we're not
aware of? Yeah.
And it's interesting that you say clinical because is systems
thinking better equipped? Is it a better approach for the
kind of messy world that projects get done in?
Yeah, projects can be messy, I think as as textbooks.
So is it one of the benefits of taking a systems thinking
approach? I'll know we'll dive into that
later. But it sounds to me as though
it's very well matched with what life and business in the world
is like at the moment, constantly changing, nothing's
for certain. Is that one of these appealing
aspects of it, Esther? Very much so.
It's understanding that projects are never delivered in a
statics, you know, a static mode there.
There will be change, there will be issues, there will be
problems, but it's always bearing in mind that we have to
deliver as a project community, we have to deliver to the
customer's requirements. If the customer needs or has
expressed a desire to have an infrastructure built, it's
understanding how best to to understand the needs and deliver
to the customer's point. OK.
Thank you, Cesar. Anything you'd like to add?
For me, it's again relating to projects.
It's important that everyone in the project shares the same
understanding of what, what the goal is.
And and that's from not just from the client and the
stakeholder, but also the project team and and systems
thinking allows you, gives you that tool to that.
I should be enabled to do that because in my limited knowledge
of systems thinking so far, you actually create some sort of a
graphical representation. A model of what?
What? When I say you, I mean the team
collectively produced a graphical representation of the
understanding of how the system performs or acts in a project
environment. For example, you know, what's in
a project, There's how, what, what other, whether the, the,
the, the, the stakeholders, the, the, the, the community that
will be impacted, the, the, the client side or the, the people
that needs to provide approval as well as the potential users
later on. So it's really basically trying
to create that understands that right from the beginning of the
project, you try and ensure that you and your client had the same
understanding and you communicate the same
understanding to your team and, and how the, the various factors
that relate will later on, will, will could have an impact or
influence how the project progresses are interrelated.
So creating that understanding I think is key and systems
thinking provided too, because it it is essentially, as I said,
a, a, a graphical way of representing, representing a
collective understanding of situation.
OK, well that's really useful because it sounds to me though,
it's a great way to achieve clarity.
I mean, what is the problem you're trying to solve, how
you're going to go about doing it?
What are the impact, what the impacts might be?
Well, I'd like to ask you what benefits system syncing brings.
You've already touched on that, but I just wondered, I mean, do
you feel that system syncing is growing in importance right now
and that project professionals need to take more of an interest
in it? I know it's in the APM Body of
Knowledge, AIDS Edition, so it's definitely recognised as being
something very important for project professionals to know
about, but do you think it's of particular value right now in
terms of the projects and programmes that are being
conducted? Yeah, absolutely.
It's and the reason is because the world is getting a lot more
complicated and and that's making things more complex.
And the result of this is that more and more projects, despite
the best efforts of of APM and professional bodies and
education, more and more projects are running into
unplanned unforecast adverse events.
So systems thinking really helps that foresight, you know, left
shifting or front end loading to do the analysis upfront that
that that actually gives the clarity that you talk about as
to what could go wrong, what what could go right, what are
the opportunities and particularly in thoroughly
understanding the problem you're trying to solve before you jump
to a solution. So thank you.
I guess what I'm dying to find out more about is how you
actually use system syncing and at what point.
I know the subtitle for doing the right projects is is using a
system syncing approach to select successful projects.
So imagine you start using system syncing before the
project comes into being. So it'd be useful for each of
you to give you an idea of how you put this into practise.
What is it exactly? And I know we can't go through
all the tools and techniques that are in the guide, but if
you perhaps people kind of unfamiliar with this, how do you
actually put this into practise? So Caesar, you sound like you're
quite new to this world, so you're probably closest to
grappling of what it is and how you put it into practise.
So are you happy to show what works?
Sure. OK.
So again I'm grounding it basis of the work I do as a consulting
engineer. And and so when we look at
projects, we first of all we, we look, we, we consult with the
client, we discuss with the client what are their goals and
it's always about lead towards the intended benefit of the
project. So you, you start the beginning,
what does the client want? But also you're looking ahead
and saying it's OK, What, what do you really want to achieve?
What is the intended benefit? And, and, and that requires
that's, that's understanding what we call stakeholders, the,
the, the community, the people, the use of the will be affected
by, by this project eventually. And, and, and that's that's
where a system's thinking, I feel in my practise.
Is very useful. First is understanding who those
stakeholders are not just a client, the users, but also the
various, the various entities that would be involved from
approval from who will deliver the work as well as the, the
people that living in the community that will will be
affected during construction that also will benefit when the
construction is finished. Each of those I call
stakeholders will have certain needs and wants and some of them
will have certain more more influence and power in terms of
how the project could be, could be successful.
I've been involved in a lot of public consultation relating to
planning in of major projects in the UK.
We call it development consent order.
The the formal process and that that led me to appreciate the
wide view of of of various committees that need to be
consulted as well as the need to be taken into account.
The views of which could eventually put the grant project
into a halt, but also encourage others to be more supportive and
and and and and and and encourage the the project should
go ahead as soon as possible. So for me, a system thinking in,
in practise is about understanding that link between
what the proponents of project, the clients want to achieve as a
eventual outcome and the benefit to the users.
And, and, and, and me as a, as a consulting engineer trying to
help that make sure that that becomes happens as a success.
But by using system thinking, for example, to understand
stakeholders, the various stakeholders that will be
affected and make sure that we we engage with them and we and,
and collaborate with them throughout the the stages of the
project from the beginning right away to the end.
So what? How do you do that in practise?
Is there a particular tool you use to help achieve?
This if you could. Just give one example. 11 aspect
would be to use in in in project management, the people who are
familiar with stakeholder mapping in systems thinking.
We have a tool that is actually a subject about either webinar
and I've already presented in some of the ATM webinars called
the Critical Systems Heuristics tool.
It's basically asking several questions and this particular 2
questions, typical 12 questions of what is the objective?
Who is the intended benefit of this this project?
Who is in control of the conditions that would enable
this project success? Who who carries the knowledge or
expertise to make this happen? Who will be impacted?
So you, you go through those various questions as part of the
process, one as a having understanding of the, what the
client wants and also as a project team in order to provide
the solution that will address those questions and the
responses to those questions. And that's how basically how we
did. So my, my role is basically to
provide solution to an infrastructure problem, but I
can't just provide a technical solution.
That's, that's, I feel that can be built.
But also you need to address the, the, the views of various
stakeholders. So ask various questions and
those questions are generated by the, the team I'm involved in
who are subject matter experts in their own right.
Because a single person and a very, even a very experienced
project manager doesn't know everything.
So it, it encourages a more collaborative approach, engaging
everyone within the team and, and, and sometimes also
including the client representative to, to
understand, do we really understand the, the objective
and, and the potential impact and, and the benefits and, and,
and then come up with a solution that addresses those as much as
possible. Sometimes it cannot be really
satisfy everybody. It's not, it's not possible, but
you try to maximise the benefits as much as you can.
What's impressing me about what you're saying is it's very much
about the people's side of things.
It's speaking to people, it's collaborative, it's finding out
what people want, what potential problems could be.
Is this different to how you would approach your
infrastructure projects without using system syncing?
Or the systems syncing accentuate with how the best way
to work out all these different pieces and how they might fit
together. Systems thinking for me, it
provides that framework and various tools.
So there's no one tool that's applicable to everything.
So system thinking enables you, gives you that that framework
various tools that's available course of loop diagrams is one
of them. But also also the recognition
that I mean for me as a project professional, that I, I don't
carry all the knowledge and and does don't have all the answers.
I need to gather a group of individuals within my team and
specialties if necessary from the client side in order to have
a a holistic view of of the problem first of all and then
the the potential solution or options and how those potential
solution could could impact could have a potential impact as
well. Sounds great.
It sounds like it's helping you to do a better job.
Is it hard to start going down the systems thinking route if
you haven't really dipped your toe in it before or, or is it
very much a case of you experiment a little bit with
something before you know you realise that it's really
valuable as. I said, I, I started the system
thinking completely green with, with no, it's just basic
knowledge that maybe this, this will help me look at things
holistically and, and what we did then.
And Andrew will remember it was during COVID time, the pandemic.
And, and you know, we don't know what pandemic COVID-19 would
mean to the UK and the whole world.
And the team actually decided to use systems thinking, in
particular the, the, the tool we called causal loop diagram to
understand what could be the potential impact of a COVID-19
to the UK and, and what are the factors that actually
influencing it's potential cure or, or perhaps how long it would
last. And one of the things I
remembered vividly is that, you know, we actually came up with
a, a very big diagram, but with cause and effect relationship.
But certainly one of the topic that was highlighted was about
remote working, which is now the, the, the main thing that
we, we, we, we're still doing now.
So from very little, no understanding of systems
thinking to being introduced to a technique called causa dub
diagram, I was able to contribute hope meaningful
meaningfully to the discussions and, and, and, and also enabled
me to have a better appreciation what COVID-19 could mean to the
UKUK and, and, and the, the United Kingdom as well as the
whole world. So it, it just gives you that,
that bigger perspective that for me, perhaps it would have taken
me years and years to understand to and, but bringing the, the,
the, the knowledge of the whole group helped me to do that.
I'll pass it over now to Esther and Andy.
Well, thank you. It's really useful to listen to
your experience. Esther, tell me a bit about how
you've put systems sinking into practise and the kind of
benefits it gives you. Yeah, I think for me, I can
answer that into into sort of phrases.
One in my current job, systems thinking comes alive at the very
inception of a project. And some of the tools we use
are, you know, just traditional mind mapping or you know, rich
diagrams with the team. As Cesar said, it's getting the
team engaged. But what I have found quite
powerful is bringing in some independent members of the
organisation that are not directly involved in the team
delivery because they get to see the blind spots, things that
people haven't thought about. So that that's again, the
powerful element of systems thinking approach where you're
looking at the entire system saying, oh, have we thought
about, you know, somebody if, if, if we're doing an
engineering, which most of the projects are, but you know,
bring somebody who's an administrator, for example, and
just let them come in and for half an hour have the
discussions with them and then see what else can they bring
into the discussions. So this happens right at the
inception before we start even putting schedules together,
before we start decomposing the requirements.
Do we understand the problem? Are we all clear with what the
output is likely to be? Is there anything that has been
missed out? So really just laying it all on
the table and looking at the project as an ecosystem with a
view of delivering a benefit not just to the immediate customer,
but to the business and to the wide environment.
It's about getting the right project defined upfront and
having checkpoints in delivery in the delivery life cycle and
delivery doesn't end when we have finished all the
deliverables. That includes decommissioning
and post delivery support. So making sure, again when I
talk about the project ecosystem, we have absolutely
delivered what was expected by the customer and internally the
benefits have been realised for the business as well.
Yeah, it's making me think about the people's side of projects
and in particular the way you lead projects if you're wanting
to go and take this approach. Because it sounds as though you
want every stakeholder to be able to have their say and and
everyone trying to uncover potential challenges,
uncertainties and risks that are involved.
But for that to happen, you need a particular project culture,
one where people feel as though they can raise difficulties,
that kind of that whole idea of psychological safety and
communication. So Esther, what's your advice?
Am I right in thinking that that it does, it makes you a certain
type of leader if you want to use systems thinking effectively
and, and what might that be? What kind of leader are you and
what kind of culture do you aim to create on a project team?
To to your point, Emma, that the the people aspect in terms of
project delivery systems thinking does challenge some
mindset and behaviours and cultures and organisations.
It's tending towards an open culture to absolutely get to the
root cause and define what the right project is.
How do you do that in real life? Because that's easier said than
done. Absolutely, absolutely.
So one of the things that we encourage where I am and the
work I'm doing at uni as well is, is looking at projects as an
entity and ensuring that we have the right leadership there with
psychological safety at the paramount, at the forefront of
everything. So noting that teams, can this
have those difficult discussions because that's integral to
delivering the project itself. How do you achieve that?
Is it by role modelling it yourself?
Absolutely. For myself, it's been vulnerable
noting, as Cesar said, you know, the project manager, the project
specialist doesn't know everything and allowing others
to fill in the gaps because that is quite key to getting that
full picture. Caesar, is there anything else
you'd like to add around the leadership side of projects when
it comes to systems thinking and the kind of project culture you
need to cultivate in order to make the most of it?
Yes. So at work, what we encourage is
project leaders, project managers to be more
collaborative with our team, making sure that we engage
everybody and listen to ideas as well as concerns to to make this
happen. Of course, we need to make sure
that there's no blame culture in, in the project and and that
everyone is, is, is allowed to express their views and, and,
and be open to, and leaders and managers, be open to
suggestions. We, we, it, it comes from, you
know, it's, it's, you can mandate it.
But in our, in our case, it, we actually just encourage to as
leaders to, to, to be the, the example ourselves.
We use the term leadership, leadership shadow.
Well, whatever you say or do is what you practise.
And so you, you try to be more open to your team in terms of
how the, the, the, the, the, the project is being viewed by the
client and any other issues that are actually sometimes kept by
the management level. But the the members, the the
members of the team are also allowed to to know and not just
on the commercial aspects, but also in terms of potential
concerns has been expressed by the client in terms of how the
team has been performing. Thank you, Cesar.
Something that's a focus for project managers at the moment
is the idea of, well, AI and humans and how we work together.
And there's a lot of talk about human skills and AI skills.
And Andrew, actually it's something I probably want to put
to you is how does systems thinking affect that?
So is it a great, is it a great way of using AI and what's out
there to inform what's really going on in a project, but also
maximising the kind of human contribution?
I'm talking very general terms, but it's just the way that
people seem to be framing things.
It's, it's this idea that AI brings a set of skills and human
beings another set and we need to work alongside each other.
Just wonder what your take is? AI is, is not intelligence.
What what we have in our heads is real intelligence.
And so I, I see AI as being orthogonal to systems thinking.
Systems thinking is about what goes on inside our heads in
terms of understanding. And AI is, is, is a
productivity, productivity aid. It's, it's a, it's a power tool.
So if we are less busy fools by using AI, we have more time to
think and be intelligent. And this is a really important
thing. And so systems thinking is a set
of tools and techniques and a mindset that allows us to think
better given that we've got more time resulting from the the time
saving of using AI to to do a better job quicker.
OK, well, I'll move on. Tasking is and we kind of
touched it already, but Cesar, Esther, have you or both of you
got any advice on how to start using system syncing in
projects? If it's something you haven't
used before, is it something you can start off with small
experiments, start lightly and then it expands or do you dive
into it straight away and run with it?
Esther, what's your advice? Right.
So for systems thinking in terms of adopting that in a project
delivery context, I'd say to anybody you can start where you
are even as simple as your normal standard meetings or any
major design review or a major project review and the simplest
way of doing it, I'd say it's just challenging the status quo.
Here's a schedule telling me we'll deliver in three weeks
time. Let's just understand what that
means. Has is everyone brought into
that deliverable? Have we understood the context
and what the output will look like?
But if somebody was speaking this project from the start, I'd
say understand the requirements before you start putting a
schedule together, before you take those requirements and
deploy them on doors. Really capture the requirements
in the setting. Brainstorm them to make sure
everybody understands what we're delivering before you start into
delivery. Andrew, is there any advice
you'd give about starting out with system syncing?
It's difficult for me because I, I should say my, my educational
background makes, makes me think in terms of systems anyway.
But the, the simple, simple thing I would say to people is
by the guide, by the guide we've just issued, just published.
And it's, it's, it's in three parts.
Part A is meant to be read, read through and it's, it's quite
short, quite easy to read and it tells you about what, what
systems thinking is and why you should be interested in it as a
project manager. Part B is, is, is a reference
section written down by topics, topics that you can just dip
into. So when you're thinking about
that topic, you can read a few practical guides, suggested
tools to to apply, and then part C, that is, it's a compendium of
tools and techniques and references and where to find out
more information. So we've got 20, at least 20
different tools and techniques in that, in that part C.
So that that's honestly, that's very simple advice how to get
into systems thinking by the guide.
What was the hardest thing, Cesar?
Because you put these into practise not that long ago and I
wondered what would be the the hardest thing.
Some unexpectedly hard. For me, I think it's it's just
the initial perception of trying to get it started.
You know, systems thinking can be confused of different things.
You know, some in my earlier thinking, I thought it was
similar to systems engineering, the the more, more looking into
how the technical aspects of a project is verified and
validated, but actually it's actually a much broader than
that. So I think as you get deeper
into your understanding of what systems thinking is, you really
realise, you get, get realise how how how beneficial it is
from the wider function of a project manager.
I really. Encourage colleagues to to get
started and and start to apply it.
I myself still learning on on the subject, but I find it very
beneficial indeed. Can I Perhaps a good way to wrap
up would be to ask each of you for the one key take away you'd
like listeners to go away with to think about redaction to take
apart from buying a copy the guide obviously.
Andrew, would you like to start? The takeaway is that you will be
more successful as a project manager in in delivering
customer satisfaction if you think systemically, because you
will understand the problem to be solved better.
You will understand better how the solution is going to meet
that problem, and you will forecast and foresee unexpected
nasties that would rob you of success early enough to do
something about it. And who wouldn't want that?
That's fantastic. OK.
Esther, what would your key takeaway be?
I guess for me it's knowing that system thinking in a project
delivery context is not just about tools and approaches and
methodologies, it's changing behaviours and mindsets and you
know, being being willing to take in more risk in the
uncertainty that is within a complex project environment.
And Caesar, what would be your closing thought?
Systems thinking is increasingly becoming a recognised essential
skills for all project professionals in in fact, the
World Economic Forum 2025 recognised systems thinking of
one of the core skills that companies in the 2030 should be
trying to have for for their employees.
So that's already recognised in the various the institutions
that I belong to, the institution of civil engineers
recognise that as well for practising engineers.
And so, you know, encourage you to get to know more about it.
Join us at the Interest Systems Thinking Interest Network in APM
if you want to know more, because I think it it will.
I am convinced that we will help you deliver projects
successfully. OK, well, listen, that just
leads me to thank each of you for your time and your very
valuable advice and thoughts around system syncing.
And I do urge everyone listening to go and buy a guide today.
So thank you very much for your time.
Thanks again. Thank you.
Thank you, Emma. Hey, Emma.
Thanks again to Andrew Susan Esther for joining us and to you
for listening to the APM Podcast.
If you'd like to buy a copy of the new guide, Doing the Right
Project Using System Syncing, to select the right project, please
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