1 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,720 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,040 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,480 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,440 The subject of this podcast is Psychological safety and I'm 5 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,640 joined by James Evans, Programme Manager at NHS Wales Joint 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,360 Commissioning Committee, who has a deep interest in the subject 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,480 and contributed to the forthcoming APM e-learning 8 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:44,880 course on Psychological Safety. James is here to tell me what 9 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,360 psychological safety actually is and what it isn't and the 10 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,880 reasons why it's such a hot topic in project management. 11 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,000 He's here to give advice on how to get started with 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,960 psychological safety as a project manager or leader and 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,680 how to make a success of it. Psychological safety is no 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,680 longer a nice to have. It's become a critical factor in 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,560 managing projects successfully. So listen on to get some expert 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,400 advice from someone who's spent years putting it into practise 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,440 in highly complex projects. Welcome James to the APM 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,240 podcast. Thanks for finding the time to 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,480 speak to us. No problem at all. 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,280 Thank you for having me. That's OK. 21 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:23,120 Why don't we begin by you telling us a little bit about 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,360 your current role of responsibilities? 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,560 OK. So I'm a programme manager in 24 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,480 the NHS Wales Drunk Commissioning Committee, but as 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,800 part of my role as a programme manager I also lead the PMO, 26 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,480 which for us is a portfolio management office. 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,960 And my sort of primary responsibilities within that is 28 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,320 the sort of oversight of our portfolio of work within the 29 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,160 Drunk Commissioning Committee, monitoring things like 30 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,120 governance. But the more important part and 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,320 where this sort of conversation comes in is where they're to 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,120 really enable delivery. And that is both the more hard 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,840 skills like governance, but also some of the softer skills like 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,840 psychological safety as well. And but I like to really think 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,720 that it's all about the roles, not about making projects look 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,000 good in any sort of way. It's just making sure that we 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,200 have a real sort of transparent reality of what's going on, 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,720 whether that's good or bad, and that's what my sort of core role 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,120 is. I need to ask the obvious 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,440 question, which is what is psychological safety? 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,560 Because people might have an idea of what it is, but 42 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,360 particularly when it comes to project culture, I guess it is 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,480 to do around the culture and leadership and management of 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,160 projects. But how do you define 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,440 psychological safety? What does it mean in the kind of 46 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,480 messy world of delivering projects? 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,600 So I suppose the the definition I was first introduced to was 48 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,960 the definition that Amy Edmondson shared, which was that 49 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,440 shared belief that a team is safer interpersonal risk taking. 50 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,240 But for me, when I was trying to work on this with my team and 51 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,280 introduce it to the organisation, it was actually 52 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,920 came down to around 3 sort of core principles. 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,200 And it was the ability to speak up early, the ability to 54 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,160 challenge the decisions and also admit mistakes and those 3 55 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,280 without any fear of any sort of repercussions or being held. 56 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,360 And to a different there's, there's the difference between 57 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,480 being held to account versus punished. 58 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,160 And you don't want to be punished forever doing any one 59 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,480 of those reactions. But I think it's also really key 60 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,880 that when we talk about the definition of psychological 61 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,560 safety, we talk about the definition of what it's not. 62 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,600 Because sometimes it can be really easy to mix it up with 63 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,080 being really nice or lowering standards or going too far. 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,840 And actually psychological safety is never about saying yes 65 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,520 to everything or being overly nice. 66 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,080 It's actually just creating a culture and environment where we 67 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,000 can actually just challenge in a professional way. 68 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,040 That's interesting, you say, because it sounds as though 69 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,520 there's an art to getting it right because on the one hand 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,720 you could be too nice, but then in contrast, like, can you be 71 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,120 too nasty? Can people take it kind of 72 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,320 permission to really, you know, be nasty? 73 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,960 I mean, I'm joking, but is that actually a real does that? 74 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,360 Is that something that happened? Yeah, I've I've actually seen 75 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,680 both ends the scale a bit. So when you've got no 76 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,440 psychological safety, teams do tend to shut down, delivery 77 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:46,720 tends to shut down and starts to fail because people are afraid 78 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,520 to talk to speaker and things like risks start to become 79 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,640 issues. And it becomes it just spirals 80 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,080 into a bit of a mess. But also going the opposite way 81 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,880 where teams are trying to be too supportive and too far to 82 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,280 enabling everyone and coming back to what we talked about 83 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,880 start pleasing everyone really going into that side of it. 84 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,840 And you start to lose accountability because you've 85 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:15,560 start the teams don't want to basically put any pressure on 86 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,240 people. So they go, oh, that's OK. 87 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,640 And we, we want, you know, there's no one to blame. 88 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,640 And like I said, there's a difference between blame and 89 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,960 accountability. And when we're talking about 90 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,440 right, something has gone wrong, right? 91 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,240 Where's the accountability set with that? 92 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,640 Well, it could be an individual or it could be a team. 93 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,760 But what we're seeing is now is that person is accountable, but 94 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,960 what we're saying is how do we actually learn from that? 95 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,800 What are the lessons we're taking from that? 96 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,240 But where we go to to, we don't do the lessons learned. 97 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,800 We don't pick up the lessons from it. 98 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,920 And actually we just sort of sweep the lens of the carpet and 99 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,200 move on, which is not more supportive either. 100 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,200 I did want to ask what what, what your where your interest 101 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,400 came from in psychological safety, but actually as well how 102 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,760 it fits into the bigger picture of what you're describing, which 103 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,560 is about having that transparency, transparency and 104 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,280 clarity when it comes to project delivery, especially complex 105 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,480 ones. Yeah. 106 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,440 So my interest in psychological safety was actually was actually 107 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,560 born out of accidents if it's the best way of describing it. 108 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:29,120 So about four, 4-5 years ago, I rose just embarking on my 109 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:35,240 master's degree in project management, and it was coming up 110 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,480 to the point where I was having to pick a dissertation topic and 111 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,160 I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. 112 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,680 I knew deep down that I wasn't going to touch anything around 113 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,400 leadership and management or any of those soft skills. 114 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,280 I was really trying to steer clear of them. 115 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,600 But I happened to go to a a conference at the time which was 116 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,160 on patient safety in a clinical setting. 117 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,360 And then there was a psychologist there who presented 118 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:07,920 on a case study from the NHS and it was a case study around 119 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,560 Elaine Bromley and a clinical setting where something went 120 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,520 wrong in the operating theatre where no one felt safe that they 121 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,160 could speak up. And then the outcome was 122 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,280 actually quite catastrophic. And then the patient didn't make 123 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,120 it. And when I heard that and was 124 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,960 actually listening to what they were describing as clinical 125 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,960 psychological safety, something just clicked. 126 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,600 And it then took me back to a week earlier when I was at a 127 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,560 project board meeting and everyone in the room knew 128 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,240 something was wrong with this project, but no one was coming 129 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,920 forward and actually saying not something's not, not right here. 130 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,880 There was almost like an underlying fear and tone in that 131 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,560 in our meeting. And it just clicked. 132 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,160 Then I thought, well, actually, if they're promoting 133 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,720 psychological safety so big and so around clinical settings and 134 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,360 around people, why aren't we doing it in delivery as well? 135 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,440 Because it's the same, same thing. 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,760 We're delivering something, we're producing something. 137 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,560 And that was the, the start of my sort of deep dive. 138 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,080 And I went on to do a master's dissertation into it and really 139 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,200 got interested then and how and the subtle changes that we can 140 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,920 make, make such a big impact. And even though the study I did 141 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,720 around my masters was quite small scale at the time with 142 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,600 just a small team and the information I started to gather 143 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,520 was huge. And that's only grown as time 144 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,559 has gone on. And I've realised that 4-5 years 145 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,120 later, psychological safety seems to have become a real big 146 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,360 topic area now and it's becoming bigger and bigger and project 147 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,360 management and it's really, really good to see. 148 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,360 But yeah, that's where my interest came from. 149 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,800 That's really interesting. It reminds me of this is a big 150 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,600 deal within the aviation industry, isn't it, with airline 151 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,680 pilots and the hierarchy, strict hierarchy they used to be and 152 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:04,680 how they needed to overcome that because people were too scared 153 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,080 to speak to those senior and there was a lot of work in that. 154 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,800 Is that was that? Is that something you've heard 155 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,880 about too? Yeah, it it was interesting that 156 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,560 like from the clinical setting that's what that's this type of 157 00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:21,040 examples they use as well around the airline example. 158 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,880 And it was the same the clinical that people just felt that 159 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,040 because the hierarchical nature that some of the positions come 160 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,800 in to where you would have consultants and then you would 161 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,920 have the sort of fear to nurses. And then some of the supporting 162 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,480 roles that sort of come in. They just felt like, well, they 163 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,040 were a lot more experienced. Like I don't want to say 164 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,120 something because they obviously know what they're doing and it's 165 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,920 not always obvious. And so I guess it's that we need 166 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,640 to just reflect on and those situations that we put ourselves 167 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:53,920 in. And I think some sectors are 168 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,000 really more prone to it than others. 169 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,400 I'd love to find out from you because you've been thinking 170 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,640 about this so much and putting it into practise. 171 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,440 What have been if If you could draw out some key principles 172 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,880 about how to get it right in practise, what might those be? 173 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,240 So you mentioned the word clarity earlier on. 174 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,600 I think clarity is probably one of the key, key principles here 175 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,000 and clarity around expectations, the tasks. 176 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,160 So we focus a lot on roles and responsibilities when we set up 177 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,040 any project or programme, but around that as well, it's the 178 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,680 clarity of what's expected of the individuals, the teams and 179 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,720 the overall project and what it's trying to deliver as well. 180 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,560 So everyone is in tune with that message. 181 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:48,760 How do you actually make that happen? 182 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,160 Is it sitting down individually? Is it a group meeting? 183 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,640 This is This is really useful to know how you actually achieve 184 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:56,960 that. What works? 185 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,120 What doesn't work? So for us it's, it's making sure 186 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,880 we try to adjusting different mediums as well. 187 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,720 So we want to make sure that we're asking better questions 188 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,800 and to try and get back clarity. So we will, we have sort of 189 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,360 prompt sheets as well that can be used to actually really 190 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,360 interrogate what we're trying to get out to this, the project, 191 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,600 the teams, the roles, the responsibilities. 192 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,200 Some of it is stuff that you would typically expect to see 193 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:32,040 around core project roles and responsibilities. 194 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,160 But what we want to do is bring everyone together and have a 195 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,680 discussion as well to really invite that challenge as well. 196 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:43,680 And I've seen it from the meetings we've had in the past 197 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:48,000 that we bring together the entire project team and 198 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,160 basically say, right, this is what we're looking to deliver 199 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,080 over the next 24 months. The role of the data team will 200 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,640 be this, this, and this. And the role of the project team 201 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,520 will be this, this, and this. And then you sometimes would get 202 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,920 a discussion starting because the data team would go, oh, 203 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,280 well, actually that doesn't quite fit into our remit. 204 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,040 We need the project team to be collecting that. 205 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,160 And the data team will analyse the, the information coming 206 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,160 through, for example. But to get those decisions 207 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,520 really flowing, we needed to present that information. 208 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,400 And it comes back to that thing around clarity of expectations. 209 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,360 And when we're presenting these roles and responsibilities, 210 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,400 clearly people can actually go, yeah, that is right. 211 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,800 But I appreciate as well not everyone is comfortable with 212 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,880 presenting or talking in those situations. 213 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,080 Or sometimes if you haven't got the psychological safety there 214 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,920 to begin with, some people might be afraid to speak up. 215 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,880 So the ways we start to encourage that then is giving 216 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,200 them other mediums. So we've used things like forms 217 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,600 where they submit in advance or post meetings where they come 218 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,600 away from the meeting, they reflect on it a little bit and 219 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,960 then they can reply back and say, do you know what, I'm not 220 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,280 happy with this, not happy with that. 221 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,920 And we might have a bit of a like post mortem later to really 222 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,520 just sort of analyse the results that are coming in. 223 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,760 But also it's around the leadership in particular, 224 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,640 whether that's the leadership from the organisation or the 225 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,480 project leadership to be really mindful of who you've got in 226 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,760 your settings. So if I'm ever hosting a project 227 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:31,120 board or any type of meeting, to be honest, I'll always look out 228 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:36,920 for who's quiet and just try and ask them questions, see if they 229 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,800 interact. And if they don't, again, it 230 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,480 might be because they just don't feel comfortable thing. 231 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,960 But what I'll tend to do is if someone's been and usually quiet 232 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,280 or haven't really interacted, I'll follow up post meeting with 233 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,000 them. I'll give them a one to one call 234 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,160 and just check in. Was everything OK? 235 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,000 Was there anything else that they wanted to add into that 236 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,200 space? And quite often you get quite a 237 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,800 lot of information come through from them. 238 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,720 You're only talking about kind of leadership style, aren't you? 239 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,480 And being very kind of aware, I guess it's being emotionally 240 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,240 intelligent about the people in your team and how they best 241 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,880 communicate. And you're talking about even 242 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,200 before the project starts. So getting everyone together and 243 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,880 discussing all of this, which leads me to ask you about how do 244 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,920 you go about establishing a culture of psychological safety? 245 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,040 And I think you're already already kind of indicating that 246 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,920 it's you're sort of role modelling as a leader, you're 247 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,040 setting expectations as a project leader or project 248 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,480 manager. Could you, could you tell me a 249 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,040 bit about that? Like how, how would you go about 250 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,680 establishing a culture of psychological safety on a 251 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,320 project right from the start? Because it sounds as though 252 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,160 you've got to start on the right foot. 253 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,560 Yeah. So I think you're absolutely 254 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,960 right. It it starts with leadership, 255 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,240 It, it definitely you can't delegate the sort of 256 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,280 introduction of psychological safety. 257 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:08,160 It starts at the top and I think from a cultural level it's 258 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,360 really built in moments and not meetings as well and which kind 259 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,000 of contradicts some of the stuff I was just saying a bit, but I. 260 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,400 Forgive you. I forgive you. 261 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:19,480 We. Need to. 262 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,080 We need to like set the expectations early. 263 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,560 So when you again, it doesn't just have to be like your 264 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,480 project boards or your project meetings, but when you bring 265 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,280 that initial group together for any type of task, we need to be 266 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,200 really clear that we expect issues to be raised. 267 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,160 What we just want is them to be raised early and we need to 268 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,760 start to turn the the language around escalation. 269 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,120 So escalation over the years I keep hearing throughout most of 270 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,160 my career actually I keep hearing the term report by 271 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:02,240 exception, but to me that it has its purpose, but because it's 272 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,840 becoming overused, we're we're losing some of the quality 273 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,320 around what escalation is actually for. 274 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,520 Sorry, can I, could you just I'll stop you there just to ask, 275 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,880 what do you mean by? Report by exception, sure. 276 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,160 So report by exception, it's often we're finding it used in 277 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,080 sort of project boards or governance meetings, but instead 278 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,040 of instead of listing everything that they want to report by, 279 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,960 it's usually just stuff that is glimly obvious or might be the 280 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,320 the highest priority stuff. So by exception, what is the top 281 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,320 priority things we need to report on today is where they're 282 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,640 bringing this in. And I think it does, it does 283 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,120 have a purpose, but we also see that it's degrading some of the 284 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,160 bits around psychological safety because you'll have people 285 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,560 within those meetings as well who want to report on 286 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,240 information, but just because it's not seen as important to 287 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,839 one particular personal body, they don't get to report or 288 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,480 escalate their information. So that escalation is not 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,599 happening and it's actually being stopped. 290 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,200 So that that's one of the things I'm starting to see. 291 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,079 And we need to be really clear when we're setting those 292 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:23,720 expectations early that we want the things like risks, issues 293 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,600 and even things around decision making to be escalated early 294 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,400 when they need to be so that there's no sort of punishment 295 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,720 around it either. And also, I guess you have to 296 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:41,520 convey the ideas that the earlier you escalate something, 297 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,640 the perhaps easier it is to solve or to deal with quickly 298 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,280 and efficiently rather than something that's been festering 299 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,360 and kept unspoken for a long time because you might not then 300 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:57,800 have a chance to rectify all all come together as a team to sort 301 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,800 of improve things. Yeah, absolutely. 302 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,400 The, and that's the one of the core messages we tried to pull 303 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,920 out there. And the even before like 304 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,760 psychological safety, that was one of the messages we would 305 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,320 always have around risk management. 306 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,080 And issue management is let's address the risks and the issues 307 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,040 as early as possible, get them escalated because the earlier we 308 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,760 can tackle them, the more chance we have of mitigating them and 309 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,800 reducing the impact of the issues if they have actually 310 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,760 happened. And and I think it's given the 311 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,240 forum spaces for this to happen as well. 312 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,160 So to create that culture of psychological safety, you've got 313 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,360 to have the, the right spaces for it to, to grow. 314 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,280 And, and too often we see stuff being quite rigid with 315 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,080 governance being established. But actually, we just need to 316 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,120 make sure that we're having things like regular check 317 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:59,160 insurance that we are revisiting conversations. 318 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,760 So as as I previously mentioned that if you notice someone's 319 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,240 been quiet or you noticed someone might have become 320 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,720 visibly frustrated or you know, emotional within the meeting 321 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,240 because of a point they were trying to cover, go and like 322 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,520 cover it off with them following the meeting and encourage those 323 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,160 open conversations. Especially where we're in this 324 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,240 day and age now where remote working is becoming, well, it's 325 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,840 increased massively and it's only getting bigger. 326 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,320 And with more virtual presence and AI coming into it as well, 327 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,520 we need to start encouraging those water cooler type 328 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,600 conversations again, where in the office you would go up and 329 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,760 have those more, right? Do you know what? 330 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,360 I got a bit of a concern. My gut's telling me this. 331 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,760 And people would feel more comfortable raising those 332 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,840 conversations virtually. I think it's almost the fear of 333 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,840 dialling the button and ringing someone to actually have that 334 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,000 conversation now because it's a, it's a, it's another barrier in 335 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,800 between two people. Yeah, you have to work hard. 336 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,240 Is that, do you get around that by just how do you recreate 337 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,320 those water cooler moments virtually? 338 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,600 Is it just by giving someone a ring? 339 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,120 I think that's probably the one thing we're still, still trying 340 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:23,400 to find the answer to ourselves. There's, there's some things we 341 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,200 found that have worked and putting deliberate time in 342 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,480 whether it be with individuals or teams. 343 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,520 And from a typical sort of leadership management point of 344 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,480 view, you're going to be doing your sort of 1 to ones and your, 345 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,120 your line management conversations where they need to 346 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,080 be. But for us, we've tried to, 347 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,680 we've tried everything. We've done virtual water cooler 348 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,000 type meetings. We're just like grab a coffee 349 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,800 and that and then just come on for a call and just check how 350 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,840 everyone is. And we've tried to do daily 351 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,640 stand ups where it's less about project delivery in the 352 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,640 mornings, but it's more about just a well-being check in and 353 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,960 seeing if there is any big barriers that they want to talk 354 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,520 through at that point. It sounds as though it's it's 355 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,600 not necessarily about the formal process. 356 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,480 It's about finding common, sensical, informal ways of 357 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,480 allowing people to communicate sort of freely, more openly. 358 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,560 Yeah. Absolutely. 359 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,000 I guess it's about having in an office you would if you did have 360 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,160 an office or your own office. It's that open door policy isn't 361 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,640 it? Like, but it's trying to 362 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,200 recreate that online. Thank you. 363 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,240 Were there were there any other points of advice you'd give 364 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,760 around establishing a culture of psychological safety that you've 365 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:46,000 learnt by by actually doing it over the past few years? 366 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,680 I think if anything, the last point you made then around that 367 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,640 sort of open door policy, it is making sure that it's really 368 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:01,960 clear when you are working with your team that they understand 369 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,560 that anything, anything that's going wrong or anything that 370 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,920 they need to talk to about, there is a, there is a clear 371 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,640 process, but a clear path. And they've got clear points of 372 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,080 contact for people they can just go and talk to about these 373 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,200 problems. And as I say, everything is seen 374 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,960 as a learning opportunity, not as a punishment opportunity. 375 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,080 And that's, that's one of the things we really try to heavily 376 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,280 promote is that yes, people will get frustrated, things will go 377 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,320 wrong. There is no such thing as a 378 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,320 perfect project. And you can always guarantee in 379 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,840 almost every project there will be something that goes wrong. 380 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,920 But what we need to do is just learn from that. 381 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,880 And psychological safety really comes into that. 382 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,600 But the more learning actually comes from the projects that 383 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,440 have the greatest psychological safety. 384 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,040 That's a really good point and whilst I'm talking to you, I'm 385 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,680 wondering do you have any advice to people who are managing a 386 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,320 project, managing others, about how do you then deal with the 387 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,520 situation? If someone comes to you and says 388 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,240 like I'm concerned about this, what is the best way to handle 389 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,000 that that you've you should learn? 390 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,760 And so for me, I've, I think it's some of it sounds almost a 391 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,840 bit, a bit too simple. But the, the first part is 392 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,680 whenever anyone has come to me with any sort of problem and you 393 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,120 want to thank them. Like first of all, because 394 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,640 especially the ones who are not very confident or you can tell 395 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,280 there's actually being a bit of fear of it is thanking them for 396 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,960 coming forward and sharing the concerns and start talking to 397 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,840 them about, right, OK, you've brought me brought me this. 398 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,680 How do you think we can solve it? 399 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,040 And where do you think we go with this? 400 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,920 And they start to have a think about it then and they start 401 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,320 talking to her about it and go, great, this is brilliant. 402 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,880 Now, if it's the type of thing you think they can actually give 403 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,840 it back to them, take, let them take ownership of it and say, 404 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,720 right, go and then explore these options. 405 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,960 Come back to, to me or come back to, you know, at the project 406 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,880 board. We'll get you to, to talk 407 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,960 through this in a bit more detail now with the, the 408 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,800 solution you've come in and I've got your back in our meeting. 409 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,640 So if anything, you know, I'll step in and, you know, jump in 410 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,760 where needed. If anyone does start to cause 411 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,440 any tension when needed, they know that they've got your back 412 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,600 in them. Full support. 413 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,320 That's probably the more like straightforward example I could 414 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,800 give on that. No, it sounds, it might, might 415 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,840 sound obvious to you, but I mean, if, if you you've never, 416 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,560 if you want to be more like this, there's some basics you 417 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,360 need to get right. And I think yes, that's right. 418 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,400 It's acknowledging that it must have been hard for that person 419 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:49,880 to come and tell you these things. 420 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,080 If, if they're fearful of the repercussions or I mean, one of 421 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,320 the questions I was going to ask you is that how, how common 422 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,800 psychological safety is across projects. 423 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,760 I know you're you're within the NHS and I don't know what the 424 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,560 culture is like where you are, but it sounds, you know, I mean, 425 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,720 for you to be doing all of this stuff, it sounds very positive. 426 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,040 But I imagine there are many project teams where it's still 427 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,240 very much a blame game. But like, how do you judge 428 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,440 things are generally? Are we do you feel as though 429 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,960 people have seen the light when it comes to psychological 430 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,640 safety? Or do you sort of think it's a 431 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,280 bit of a battle that the challenge what you know, what 432 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,720 are the challenges to establishing psychological 433 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,480 safety? Is it seen as a fluffy soft 434 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,480 thing? I think there's there's a risk 435 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,440 that it's seen as a fluffy soft thing. 436 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,840 And whilst I was doing part of my master's research and I was 437 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,280 having conversations about a year ago as well on the topic, 438 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,160 it was really clear then that people were seeing it as a bit 439 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,360 of a soft, soft issue and seeing it as always nice to have. 440 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,520 It's not something we can really waste company resources on. 441 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,200 And in fact, more recently I was with another organisation and 442 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,600 saw saw that first hand that the room was almost divided. 443 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,760 You had half of the room that were very pro psychological 444 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,040 safety and you could tell that they'd done their research on 445 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,320 it. But there was a minority within 446 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,800 the room that just didn't seem to really connect with it or 447 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,280 engage. And there was you could almost 448 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,560 sense the the reluctance to buy into it. 449 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,000 And then I was quite interested to try and explore that a bit 450 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,600 more. So as some of the questions I 451 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,880 was asking about what it was and what it was and I think and the 452 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,200 ones who were seen it as a fluffy type subject, the I was 453 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,880 getting a lot of well, you know, we can't please everyone. 454 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,600 We can't just keep doing this and doing that because it means 455 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,680 we can't operate as they as an organisation or a business. 456 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:01,640 It's catch. And I was like, well, actually 457 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,160 then it's not being done correctly. 458 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,160 It what we were talking about earlier. 459 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,080 You've got the two far, one side too far, the other side sounds 460 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,360 like the balance is shifting like either too soft or too too 461 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,040 harsh. You need to try and get it 462 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,160 somewhere in the middle. And so within projects. 463 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:25,280 And I am seeing a greater focus on psychological safety. 464 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,920 And as you mentioned my backing from the NHS, it's been there 465 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,600 for a while, psychological safety. 466 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,640 But when I first started, it's mostly been more in the clinical 467 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,120 settings. I think it's only now that it 468 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:43,480 seems to be transitioning across to other areas of the NHS and 469 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:50,400 delivery and sort of team working and it's, it's now that 470 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,440 I don't think it was always called psychological safety when 471 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,480 they were referring to it in that space. 472 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,840 It was something else. What was it called? 473 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,200 What was it? Tied up in the whole sort of 474 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,880 well-being agenda and focusing on well-being. 475 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,960 I suppose there is a lot of connections in that space and it 476 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,360 does promote a thing around well-being. 477 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:18,480 But I saw an article actually on the weekends about the 478 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,680 difference between psychological safety and psychosocial safety. 479 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:28,440 And psychosocial safety is more around the sort of well-being 480 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,880 agenda and focusing on that aspect of it, where 481 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,200 psychological safety is the cultural and creating an 482 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,800 environment where you can actually be safe. 483 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,280 It's two very different areas. I thought that was quite a nice 484 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,800 little contrast that it's a. Good distinction to make. 485 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,160 Well, why don't we? Why don't we make a comeback 486 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,120 against all those naysayers who just see it as a fluffy thing? 487 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,400 So what to spell out the obvious? 488 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,920 What benefits, what's what advantages does psychological 489 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,600 safety, if it's done in the right way, bring to a project 490 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,680 team and to the delivery and outcomes of a project? 491 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,000 So I think there's there's loads that psychological safety does 492 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,360 bring really for me, one of the the early parts of just 493 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,960 introducing very minimal psychological safetyings for a 494 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,800 team that didn't have any at the time. 495 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,920 We just started to identify risks and issues so much earlier 496 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,280 and we were able to resolve them so much quicker as well. 497 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,240 And I don't mean resolve as in we had the answer to basically 498 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,800 mitigate them, but we're actually able to come up with 499 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:46,400 some sort of mitigation plans. And we went from a raid log at 500 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,800 the time that had very little on there. 501 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,680 So actually people were were stepping up and you know, we 502 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,040 couldn't get enough on there to be honest, where people came up 503 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,280 with the different bits, which is another problem to have. 504 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,240 But it was great to see people actually come in with it. 505 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,240 But with that, it led to much better decision making. 506 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,200 So we had less group think. We had less of the sort of 507 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,920 nodding the heads on teams calls. 508 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,520 We had more people actually talking, discussing the points. 509 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,760 And you know that you had an actual everyone was on point 510 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,080 with it. Everyone agreed. 511 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,000 People weren't just nodding along and going with it because 512 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,800 they were afraid to challenge it. 513 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,240 We were actually starting to see real, real discussion and the 514 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,320 decision then made sense and we know that people were bought 515 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,520 into the idea, which then meant more engaged teams. 516 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,400 So these benefits, having a more engaged team that can do quicker 517 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,720 decision making, better quality decision making, and that's able 518 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,600 to identify risks and issues much faster and more accurately. 519 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,480 This all basically comes to your projects just work more 520 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,320 streamlined, they work smoother, accuracy goes up, quality goes 521 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,520 up and in the end of it, people are actually really proud of 522 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,040 what they do and come away happier and they want to put in 523 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,040 that extra 10% effort to actually deliver something 524 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,280 they're proud of that's. Brilliant. 525 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,840 When when you introduce psychological safety where you 526 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,360 can imagine if you're trying to do it in an organisation that 527 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,480 perhaps isn't used to it. What what are the teething 528 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,000 troubles? It was interesting what you just 529 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,400 said, like people identifying so many risks and so many. 530 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,120 Is there a way do you need to be? 531 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,800 Do you need to establish some parameters of what is 532 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,160 problematic and what isn't? What do you need to know about 533 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,120 what what you don't need to know about? 534 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:55,800 And is there some correlation then to the people knowing what 535 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,840 power they have over decision making? 536 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,200 So who owns the decision making as well? 537 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,560 Is that a hand in hand thing with psychological safety? 538 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,240 Yeah, I think it comes back to that, the clarity aspect of it 539 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,640 and understanding what your role is in the in the bigger system 540 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,800 of that project. But just because you may not 541 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,840 have the final decision making authority, you do have the you 542 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,240 do have your individual decision making ability and you do have 543 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:35,640 the your individual discussion ability as well. 544 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,880 So it doesn't matter what Saturn you're in, if you don't feel 545 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,240 you're confident or have the ability to raise an objection or 546 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,360 discuss, then why are you in the meeting in the 1st place? 547 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,120 Because if you're not actually able to get any points across, 548 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,280 and this is what historically I would start, I saw a lot of in 549 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,720 meetings, which you would have meeting people in meetings who 550 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,240 were silent all the way through in every single meeting. 551 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,440 And you could just tell that something wasn't wasn't right 552 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,040 there. And it's not to be horrible 553 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,120 saying no, what's the point in them being in this meeting? 554 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,120 We either need to change the meeting to make it more 555 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,200 inclusive of everyone who sat there and not just have the 556 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,080 loudest voices talking all the time. 557 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,720 Because actually some of the quietest voices, they tend to be 558 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,760 the reflectors in the rooms. They tend to be the more 559 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,880 analytical ones. And they actually had a lot of 560 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,120 valuable information that the decision makers need to have to, 561 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,160 to make those informed decisions. 562 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,280 But if they can't speak up or don't have it, then that's the 563 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,240 problem. So you need to really get that 564 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,400 out of them. So you either change the meeting 565 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,400 to suit or you pull them out to the meeting and get the 566 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,440 information in another way. But for me, I think it's more 567 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,280 about getting them included in the meeting. 568 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,760 And, and there's a couple of different ways to to go about 569 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,680 doing that. Some we talked about earlier. 570 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,960 Some can be as simple as just making sure that everyone has a 571 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,120 bit of time on that meeting to, to raise anything they want to. 572 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,760 One of the most powerful things I've actually seen is where 573 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,639 possible and don't cheer the meeting yourself, Give it to the 574 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:23,560 quietest person in the room or rotate the chair around because 575 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,000 someone who is naturally introverted, so I'm naturally an 576 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,159 introvert myself. I can remember in some of my 577 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,639 early days, especially in the project sector, I was terrified 578 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:37,400 going into project board meetings. 579 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,719 I can remember just being that shaky mess, not, you know, but 580 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,719 wanting to say something couldn't do it. 581 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,480 And actually thinking back on it, some of those meetings did 582 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,040 have quite low psychological safety, but something changed. 583 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,280 Then in one of the meetings I went to where they did start 584 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,560 this rotate rotating chair type thing. 585 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,560 And the chair was given to me for the one meeting. 586 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,240 And it gives you the ability because it's the chair. 587 00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:05,960 Yes, you would have your standard agenda, but it also 588 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,560 gives you the ability to to add anything else you want in and if 589 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,920 you're on the point and talking. So like you've asked me this 590 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,080 question, I can Chuck something else in because I'm I've got the 591 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,520 mic at that point and it's the same in that meeting set. 592 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,320 And so it actually gives more chance to the quieter ones to 593 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,360 speak out and it improves our psychological safety in those 594 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,240 settings. That's really good advice. 595 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:40,800 What advice would you give to to project manager or leader who 596 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,080 might feel hesitant about approaching a or trying to 597 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,960 create a project culture that is psychologically safe? 598 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,920 Because is there a fear that you might open the door to something 599 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,200 that you don't necessarily want to hear or that it's going to 600 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,160 create a load of problems to stack up for you to deal with? 601 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,880 I can appreciate that it must be a little bit daunting if if, if 602 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,240 perhaps you want to do this well and properly and you're just 603 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:12,800 saying, I just want to hear it all, all the bad stuff that's 604 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,040 happening. What advice would you give to 605 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,680 people who are feeling a little scared, a little wary of it? 606 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:27,760 Yeah, I think it's don't do it all at once because you would 607 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:33,640 never survive if if you did open a place women all it's it's 608 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:39,080 finding a small, small iterative changes you can bring in and 609 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,560 just see how they start to land. So. 610 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,240 Could you give some, could you give some of the examples of 611 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:45,480 that? Because that sounds great. 612 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:52,840 Yeah, so it it could be as simple as just starting to focus 613 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,680 on yourself more than the overarching organisational 614 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,200 project. So have a look at how when 615 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:07,960 something goes wrong, for example, so be that sort of like 616 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,720 shining an example that you're admitting your own mistakes and 617 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:14,400 being quite transparent about it. 618 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,760 So in the project board, owning up to the mistakes, but being 619 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,760 this is the lesson we're going to learn from it as well. 620 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,760 So showing that there's nothing wrong with actually being wrong 621 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,640 actually sets a massive example and you'll find the teams will 622 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,480 start to to follow that example as you go as well. 623 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,000 That's like one of the quick things you could do that doesn't 624 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,120 actually open the floodgates because it's more about your own 625 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:44,800 internal behaviours. But start to some of the bits 626 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,080 we've mentioned throughout. I would also look at reviewing 627 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,400 your project teams, reviewing the teams in the organisations. 628 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,720 Start to look where the quieter voices are who who to hear from 629 00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:59,880 the least in the in the meetings. 630 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,200 See if you can work out why. Maybe introduce the odds extra 1 631 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,400 to one pick up after them following the the meetings as 632 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,400 well. See if you start to gather that 633 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,440 information that way. Because you're not again. 634 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,680 Yep, you're almost doing it by silos at this point. 635 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,520 You're not completely opening those floodgates, but you want 636 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,640 to really reward, start rewarding transparency in your 637 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,600 processes. However you do that. 638 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,000 Sometimes it's just a simple thank you. 639 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,480 Sometimes it's through the notes and everything you send out 640 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,400 following the meeting. And we're not just rewarding or 641 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,440 celebrating success here. We're actually celebrating the 642 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,120 stuff that's gone wrong, which sounds really like backwards. 643 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,920 So this has gone wrong. Great news. 644 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,680 We've picked it up early and Joe Bloggs is going to do a great 645 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,200 job now in mitigating this and going forward. 646 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,760 It's celebrating the third, the thing that's gone wrong instead 647 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,640 of actually permishing it. And for me, one of the greatest 648 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,800 things I think they could do is actually make reflection time 649 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,000 part of the norm. And this is where you are 650 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,200 starting to open it up a bit. But we're all, we can all lose 651 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,760 focus. Well, we can all hyper focus, I 652 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,160 suppose more than anything and get really stuck into things, 653 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,200 but not actually spend any time reflecting on is everything 654 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,120 working? Has that project gone OK? 655 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:41,200 And focusing on the softer sides of the skills, not just the yes, 656 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,440 they did deliver on time, quality, cost, and the sort of 657 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,520 iron triangle. Some was starting to think more 658 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,760 about what's if we were to develop a sort of human 659 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,080 triangle, what would that human triangle be? 660 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,520 And I imagine one of those points on that triangle would 661 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,480 probably be psychological safety. 662 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,400 One of them might be something like well-being and the other 663 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,840 one might be culture. And I think those 3 might be the 664 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,360 things that interlinked together. 665 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:14,240 And there as as important as the other more traditional three 666 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:17,680 points are. So in terms of delivering a 667 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,000 project successfully, that's that's pretty. 668 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,640 I would like to talk to you for another hour, but I'm afraid 669 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,960 it's time to wrap up. Have you got any takeaways that 670 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,800 you'd like to give to people about psychological safety and 671 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,280 getting it right? I think for me that one of the 672 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,200 biggest takeaways is that it's not a nice to have. 673 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,480 It's actually a real delivery enabler. 674 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,920 And I think going forward in this really sort of uncertain 675 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,120 world as well, it's only going to become more important and 676 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,320 more key in the way that we deliver projects going forward. 677 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,920 Thanks, James. That was so fascinating to get a 678 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:02,760 proper understanding of what psychological safety is and why 679 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,320 it matters and how you can go about doing it. 680 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,920 So I just want to thank you again for joining us on the APM 681 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,280 podcast. No problem at all. 682 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,720 Thank you again for having me, we really enjoyed that. 683 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,640 Thanks again to James for joining us and to you for 684 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,840 listening to the APM Podcast. If you're interested in finding 685 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,240 out more about psychological safety, including accessing the 686 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,520 new APM Learning module, which is available to APM members, 687 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:32,640 please go to theresourcesareaoftheapmwebsite@apm.org.uk/resources 688 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,120 slash APM Hyphen Learning. Don't forget to look out for 689 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:38,800 more episodes, alter rate and reviews. 690 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,760 Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch 691 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,160 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 692 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,360 apmpodcasts at thinkpublishing.co.uk. 693 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,760 Spotify users, please do also leave us your comments. 694 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,800 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body 695 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,120 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 696 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,560 visit apm.org.uk.