1 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,920 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,240 the project profession. My name is Emma DVD, and I'm the 3 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:25,360 editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,880 today. In this podcast, we're talking 5 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,280 about the secrets of being a great project manager. 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,720 It's January and the time of year when many of us have New 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,480 Year's resolutions, or maybe just a vague idea of how we want 8 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,840 to change things up. So listen on for some excellent 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,520 advice from APM's Childhood Project Professional of the 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,520 Year, Tamzin Ali Balogun, who's also associate director for 11 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,760 Transporter ACCS Realist Paul Chapman OBE of the University of 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Oxford Side Business School, where he is Academy director of 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,440 the UK Government's Major Project Leadership Academy, and 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,520 the older managing director for major infrastructure delivery at 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,319 Anglian Water and Anne Marie Purcell of Purcell Advisory. 16 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,400 If you want even more top tips, then listen to our first 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,800 installment of this podcast back in January 2025. 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,800 First, let's listen to Tamsin Ali Balagun for her secrets to 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,960 success. She says to keep focus on what 20 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,640 you need to do every day to achieve what needs to get done 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,400 in your project is what's needed. 22 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,920 Keep asking yourself what are we trying to do on this project and 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,440 prioritise, prioritise, prioritise. 24 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,240 And finally, remember that no project manager can be excellent 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,520 at everything. I think when it comes to a great 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,200 project manager, it's very it's very context specific. 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,840 So I think different project managers can be great in 28 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,440 different in different contexts, but but in terms of kind of what 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,080 tends what you tend to see when people are being great as 30 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,960 project managers, what they tend to be doing. 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,400 So I think the first thing I would say is that it's all about 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,600 that focus on what the project is aiming to do and the keeping 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:07,640 that daily kind of practise of of focusing what is this project 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,479 aiming to do? And therefore, what do I need to 35 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:13,400 do as a project manager to get that project kind of towards 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,760 that aim, you know, as as well as I can. 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,880 And I think where that goes wrong and where people aren't as 38 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,960 great, perhaps in their project management as they could be is 39 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,240 where you, you gather all the great knowledge of the tools and 40 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,240 the techniques and the best practise, but you lose sight of 41 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,360 what you're trying to achieve. And you can get lost then in 42 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,560 doing all of those, those best practises and they no longer 43 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,760 become best practise. It it would, it would be a best 44 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:38,440 practise in another context, perhaps. 45 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,800 But because you've lost track on, you know, sort of where 46 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,560 you're going, you start to use the tools in a way that isn't 47 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,040 kind of as, as as pragmatic as it could be. 48 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,480 So I think that's one thing is just to keep asking yourself, 49 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,080 what are we trying to do with this project? 50 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,200 What are we aiming at? And what do I need to do? 51 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,120 What do I need to use and how do I need to use it to steer this 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,000 project and this team in the right direction? 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,360 So that'd be the first thing I think kind of related to that is 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,760 about prioritising. So prioritise, prioritise, 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,800 prioritise every we, we cannot do everything that we need to do 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,440 as a project manager or that we want to do because time is time 57 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,080 is constrained and you know, there's always going to be lots 58 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,320 of things that people want us to do, etcetera. 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,400 So it's all about what are, you know, what are our biggest 60 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,440 risks? What are the issues that we need 61 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,160 to deal with urgently? What, what are our stakeholder 62 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,200 expectations? What do we need to make sure 63 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,600 other people know? And therefore, kind of in our 64 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,320 day-to-day, making sure that we're really staying focused on 65 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,640 the priority things. And again, not getting kind of 66 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,200 distracted into the things that we might enjoy as a project 67 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,320 manager, kind of tidying up, you know, this and that register and 68 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,880 schedule and these sorts of things. 69 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,360 We need them, but we need to make sure we're using them in a 70 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,200 way that kind of lets us deal with the priorities and kind of 71 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,640 takes us forward. OK, that sounds like 2 pieces of 72 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,760 really great advice. I wanted to ask you about the 73 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,400 people side of things. So the way that you manage 74 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,040 people, is there anyone that you've worked with or that you 75 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,800 recognise in yourself that you do well as and and helps make 76 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,160 you a really good project manager? 77 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,520 So I think, I think it's really important as project managers 78 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,160 that we that we influence and how we influence. 79 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,880 It's a really personal thing. There is not one way of being 80 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,120 influential. I think that's the risk is when 81 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,360 you look at how other people influence, you think, oh, they 82 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,920 are influencing really well. People listen to them. 83 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,800 If you then if you are not them and you try to kind of just just 84 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,840 reproduce what they do, you might well find that that 85 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,280 doesn't work for you. So I think kind of influencing 86 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:37,920 and being able to deal with people well is one of those 87 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,400 trial and error things. As a project manager, you have 88 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,840 to find your way. You have to find your way that 89 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:45,720 works for your personality, your skill set, for your career 90 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,480 stage. And it will be different for 91 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,680 everybody. So I've, I've kind of learnt 92 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,000 different bits of kind of how I influence or how I kind of 93 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,440 manage situations from, from different people that I've seen 94 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,680 kind of do it well. I think in particular, someone I 95 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,360 used to work with who was actually more more in management 96 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,720 than in project management, but she was brilliant at chairing a 97 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,800 meeting and just excellent kind of keeping everybody on track 98 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,400 and really owning it. And that is something that I do 99 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,360 try to emulate when I'm trying to kind of work through a 100 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,040 workshop. It's really important that you 101 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,160 cover everything in the time and being able to sort of stop 102 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,640 people when we're going down rabbit holes and kind of finding 103 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,960 ways of bringing everybody back on track in a way that's polite, 104 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,240 that kind of builds that rapport, but is really clear is 105 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,520 something that I've, I've learned, I learned first from 106 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,200 her and I've kind of made a bit of a reputation for myself 107 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,800 around being able to do that quite well. 108 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,440 So, so that's what 1 aspect kind of when you're in a group 109 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,600 situation. But, but I think when we're 110 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,600 dealing kind of 1 to one with people, there's a different, 111 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,600 very different kind of skill set needed there. 112 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,160 And sometimes it will be a more kind of reverent position that 113 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,360 we will take and a more kind of humbly asking for advice. 114 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,760 And, you know, kind of people will feel more likely to trust 115 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,360 us if they feel like we're listening to them. 116 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,880 So, so that can be, you know, actually quite a powerful way of 117 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,760 influencing is actually to give people that time to, to listen 118 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,840 and kind of respect their view and build the rapport that way. 119 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,160 And then in other situations, it'll be much more directive and 120 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,840 people will be looking to us, you know, to find out what they 121 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:17,440 need to do and really, really kind of hanging on every word. 122 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,280 And so I think it's you've got to be flexible as a project 123 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:23,240 manager, you've got to be able to read that situation as best 124 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,120 you can, try things and change and be open to kind of realising 125 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,960 that a situation didn't go very well. 126 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,760 Doesn't mean that you know, you can't do it just means that next 127 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,200 time you need to kind of think a little bit differently about how 128 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,760 you approach it, plan it a little bit differently and, and 129 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,440 try again because that that we will all have conversations that 130 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,960 don't go well. However, however experienced we 131 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,840 are, nobody's ever kind of perfected it because because 132 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,080 it's always so kind of context specific. 133 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,440 Yes, you're right and I really like what you're saying. 134 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,920 I think part of what you're saying is know yourself for what 135 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,120 works for you. So you only think maybe you can 136 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,760 pick and choose what you admire from other people that seem 137 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,600 successful, but then you make it your own. 138 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,680 Will you work what's best for you and? 139 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,280 To have that adaptability to. Different situations and I guess 140 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,640 you're just learning the whole time how to do it better, don't 141 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,120 you, from every experience you have. 142 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,600 I just had a couple of last questions. 143 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,520 One would be, what's the difference between a good 144 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,920 project manager and someone who's excellent, You know, the 145 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,160 people that you notice. Is that something you've ever 146 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,840 thought about or noticed? I think that's a really good 147 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,320 question. And I think it's one that all 148 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,320 project managers kind of should should be asking of themselves. 149 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,560 You know, am I, am I excelling at what I do? 150 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,600 And I think my view is that once you've achieved kind of 151 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,080 competence as a project manager, by which I mean you've got some 152 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,600 theory behind, you've got some qualifications, you've developed 153 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,360 some confidence and you've kind of developed your network a bit. 154 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,960 You've got that experience of different types of projects. 155 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,240 You're starting to feel like you do know what you're doing and 156 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,200 you know this is the career for you. 157 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,320 Being able to show excellence then becomes context specific 158 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,560 and it's again, it's back to the fact that you come with your own 159 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,560 strengths. So project management is really 160 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,520 broad. There's loads of bits to it. 161 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,920 I'm not brilliant at all the bits I don't think any of us 162 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,120 could say that we were. So there will be contexts and 163 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,440 projects and people where if you put me as a project manager, I 164 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,280 will do brilliantly well. There'll be other contexts where 165 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,080 you put me as a project manager and I hope I would be competent, 166 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,640 but I might accept competent as, as, you know, the best I could 167 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,320 do in that situation situation. And that's why I think as we go 168 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,280 through a career, we work on different types of projects, 169 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,640 realising and working out kind of which are those contexts that 170 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,000 allow us to bring out our strengths and to do what we do 171 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,800 with, with kind of skills experience that we've got really 172 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,960 well. You know that that's really what 173 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,840 you're aiming for, isn't it? So that you you can thrive in 174 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,640 your career and people that have got different skill sets and 175 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,840 project managers that kind of prefer a slightly different way 176 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,880 of working can go into those kind of other contexts and do 177 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,520 brilliantly well there. So I think there's this space, 178 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,280 it's for all of us, but sometimes when you feel like, 179 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,560 oh, perhaps I'm not as good as I thought I was, you probably just 180 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,480 found yourself in the wrong context for your particular kind 181 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,560 of skill set at that time. It's not to say you could never 182 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,320 thrive in that, but perhaps right now a different type of 183 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,840 project might might be a better fit. 184 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,040 OK, I love that. I love that. 185 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:27,440 Then finally, because we're recording this in January and 186 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,120 people tend to make New Year's resolutions and I think the 187 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,720 stats say by now most people have given up on them like we 188 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,400 were over halfway through January. 189 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,440 But it is a good point. It is. 190 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,120 It's kind of the time of year when everyone thinks about what 191 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,040 they might want to change or do better. 192 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,960 And I wondered if you had any news resolutions or any ideas 193 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:55,800 about or any focus on what you want to improve or work on in 194 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,880 terms of being a project manager in 2020? 195 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,320 Six, yes, I, I am. I do like to kind of take the 196 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,040 beginning of the year to think, well, Christmas is over and it's 197 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,840 that kind of little space at the start of the year before 198 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,960 everything gets busy. So I do tend to kind of be be 199 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,680 like a kind of a New Year's resolution type. 200 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,960 So for me this year, I think it's about being slightly more 201 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,760 deliberate in reading around the subject. 202 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,680 And it's not to say that I haven't read around the subject 203 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,560 of project management in the past, but I do tend to just pick 204 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:28,120 out the bits I'm really interested in and read more 205 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,840 about those bits and skim over, you know, perhaps the things 206 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,440 that aren't don't jump out as at me as being kind of quite so 207 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,560 interesting. But what I think I've kind of 208 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,600 realised that that does tend to take you a little bit into into 209 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,240 something of an echo chamber where you're only ever listening 210 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,000 to things that you kind of enjoy hearing. 211 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,120 And maybe focus on areas of project management that that you 212 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,200 already probably do quite well. And maybe don't need to kind of 213 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,080 focus as much on in, in rounding yourself off and working to that 214 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,360 kind of that standard of excellence that that we're all 215 00:10:57,560 --> 00:10:59,640 kind of doing as we go through our career. 216 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,840 So I think for me, that means, for example, when I get Project 217 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,400 magazine, read all of it, not just flick it and read the bits 218 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,840 that, Oh, I like that topic. I'll read that because I found 219 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,920 that as I've started to do that and I have started. 220 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,320 You do think actually that was more interesting than I thought 221 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,240 it would be. It was more relevant to me than 222 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,160 I thought it would be. So it's that sort of judging a 223 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,760 book by its cover. I kind of just getting past that 224 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,920 and being a bit more disciplined so that what might be on social 225 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,800 media, or it might be, as I say, with Project magazine, it might 226 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,280 be that I'll go to some webinars or some events where the, the 227 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,520 topic doesn't jump out at me at first. 228 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,840 But I think actually this is where I need to be finding out 229 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,400 like what this does mean for me. And, and that's where I'll kind 230 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,920 of learn more this year. So I think that's, that's my 231 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,640 main one. And then I think there's also 232 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,520 because I won the, the chartered project Professional of the Year 233 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,800 award last year, which was all about recognising people who 234 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,320 give back to the profession. And I do give back to the 235 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,560 profession. So it's lovely to have that, 236 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,680 that recognition, but it does make me think, OK, I need I, you 237 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:03,040 know, the more, the more that you are recognised for doing it, 238 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,600 the more you feel that that duty, the more of a platform you 239 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,520 have to sort of be, be that role model. 240 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,320 So the other part for me is thinking, what does that mean 241 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,280 for me to be a role model? Where are there opportunities 242 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,800 that I'm not taking to kind of give back more or give back in a 243 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:21,840 slightly more kind of strategic way? 244 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,640 Or perhaps it's kind of to do some more deep, deeper mentoring 245 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,360 with project managers, you know, where, where can I get better at 246 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,680 doing that? So I don't think we should, we 247 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:33,160 should ever be kind of complacent. 248 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,200 OK. Tamsin, that was brilliant. 249 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,320 Thank you. Is there anything else you'd 250 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,800 like to add? I think the only thing that I 251 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,080 thought I would like to add probably is about being proud of 252 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,520 what we do. And this is something that I've 253 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,040 been on quite a journey with in my in my career. 254 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,600 Because when I moved into my current organisation, which is 255 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,960 an engineering design organisation primarily, I really 256 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,640 felt conscious that most people were engineers and I wasn't. 257 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,720 And I and I didn't feel as proud to be arriving as a project 258 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,080 manager as I look back and I think I should have been. 259 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,240 So I think being proud of kind of what you do as a project 260 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,160 professional, it's really important to to kind of keep 261 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,920 your confidence going to keep your morale up when things, you 262 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,800 know, inevitably get harder and easier as the year goes on. 263 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,800 So in those kind of low points, I think having that pride and 264 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,800 where you can kind of draw on that pride is by going out and 265 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,960 kind of spending time with other project professionals, which is 266 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,680 what I do. And I love it. 267 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,080 And I get really excited these days for networking where it's, 268 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,720 you know, other events and events where I will be with 269 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,200 other project professionals don't even have to be talking 270 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,040 about projects. It's just getting to know other 271 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,920 people who are in similar kind of roles to you, listening to 272 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,360 them talking about what they do. I feel like this kind of really 273 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,640 helps you understand the impact of of this career, this 274 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,280 profession on society. And it really does make you much 275 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,600 more proud to kind of be doing what you're doing. 276 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,640 And then you can bring that pride kind of back into your 277 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,440 day-to-day. So I think that's something that 278 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,440 I would love to see more project managers starting to get engaged 279 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,520 this year with the with the with the profession to build their 280 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,640 own networks and just to kind of see how much that kind of rounds 281 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,160 you off as a project manager and and gives you that energy. 282 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,200 Now let's listen to Paul Chapman, who believes that a 283 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,120 great project manager is someone who's doing something they love. 284 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,360 Project professionals really shine when the work they do is 285 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,280 something they feel passionate about and bring their talents to 286 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,760 bear. I I won't make any claims about 287 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:38,120 me, but I have a very fortunate position of working with a lot 288 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:44,400 of different project managers. So I think I've got to see in 289 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,520 action somewhere between 2 and 3000, which is, which is not a 290 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,160 bad data set and there are a few of them that really stand out. 291 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,040 I think the jumping off point here is being good, excellent. 292 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,400 Yeah, we love that. But the question is what makes a 293 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,200 great project manager? And I think one of the things 294 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,480 that really stands out is people doing something they love. 295 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,480 And there's something about project professionals, which is 296 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,680 they can get projects done and. Yeah, some days better than 297 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,520 others, some projects but than others. 298 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,320 But you can see they really shine when it's something they 299 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,920 feel passionate about and they can bring all their talents to 300 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,720 bed. I think that's important because 301 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,360 as professionals we should be professional. 302 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,920 And then you're on at your best when it's something you love 303 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,440 doing. So there's not just been good at 304 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,640 it which practise and technique, there's that kind of next layer. 305 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,560 And I think in the really great project managers that they're 306 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,520 doing something more so getting the project done, well done, 307 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,440 round of applause. But they're thinking left and 308 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,480 right. They're thinking up and down. 309 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,960 And I think the left and right is important by which I mean 310 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,560 sort of timeline that they're thinking about the outcome that 311 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,320 they will deliver. So great project managers 312 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,120 understand operations. When we land this capability 313 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,840 into practise, what will it do? What are some of the tricky 314 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,800 things that we'll encounter in the future, Next week, the week 315 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,960 after next month, when it's been running for 10 years? 316 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,000 OK. So they're doing stuff now in 317 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,840 anticipation of that, but they're sort of thinking to the 318 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:43,120 left as well, which is sort of thinking back in time, which is 319 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,040 kind of they're sort of planning the next project. 320 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,560 So, so great project managers getting stuff done should have 321 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,640 been in place to advise people when they were thinking about 322 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,360 the project. In the public sector, advising 323 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,480 on policy in the private sector, advising on strategy and 324 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,520 planning. We're going to do some wondrous 325 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,520 thing. The great project manager is on 326 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,680 hand to provide that advice. You can do pretty much anything 327 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,160 in any way. However, I would advise 328 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,480 recommend these following things that I think that's the thinking 329 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:27,079 sort of left and thinking right and the thinking up thinking 330 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:32,160 down idea is love them or load the most of us operate in a 331 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,080 hierarchy. There are people with sort of 332 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,960 authority different levels of power. 333 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,520 Hey ho, let's let's just run with that really great project 334 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,240 managers can think up. So what are their clients 335 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,440 thinking? What are the demands and 336 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,560 challenges they face or in an organisation, what's the kind of 337 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,520 what's the boss thinking? And actually what's their boss 338 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,800 thinking? So trying to understand their 339 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,640 position, to anticipate the challenges. 340 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,800 So if project managers are the people getting stuff done, 341 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,760 they're often reporting into people who have to manage 342 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,880 budgets and finance and for reasons outside of everyone's 343 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,400 control, spending this year might not be as much or could be 344 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,320 more than anticipated. Great project managers have 345 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,120 already explored those ideas. Maybe the organisation strategy 346 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,160 has up to pivot. Great project managers have 347 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,000 anticipated that. And then thinking down, one of 348 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,840 the things we we we really took away from COVID pandemic 349 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,520 experience was really understanding who frontline 350 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,760 workers are because they're really people who get stuff 351 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,160 done. And great project managers know 352 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,480 about the people who will be delivering the projects. 353 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,320 So operation metres, but also frontline stuff. 354 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:03,040 So they're acting as the risk of using a fancy term interlocutor 355 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,440 that they're working across boundaries and representing 356 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,680 interests up and representing interests down. 357 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,840 So they're very enabling and supportive. 358 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,320 So I think that's some of the things that they do. 359 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,880 They also do something more in terms of legacy. 360 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,800 We think about the Iron triangle getting projects done on cost, 361 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:33,280 on time deliver. I think that often misses a 362 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:38,600 fourth something or or stool triangle, the fourth thing, 363 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,200 which is which is people. And it was the sort of late 364 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,280 Martin Barnes who referred to project management as people 365 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,560 getting stuff done. And the people element is really 366 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:56,120 important on a bad day on a project, you can get stuff done, 367 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:03,320 but you're really squeezing the asset, bleeding the resource. 368 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,960 Basically it the consequences on people and great project 369 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,880 managers use the project to develop. 370 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,680 And enhance capability, not deplete it. 371 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,760 And I think that leans in a little bit of, you know, one of 372 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,720 the great project managers look to achieve or get project done, 373 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,520 yes. And also leave a legacy. 374 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,160 And often that legacy is in that tea. 375 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,960 They're they're better, they've had exposure, they've had 376 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,880 experience, they've they've come on because of the project. 377 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,800 And I think somewhere in there is also this mix of having 378 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,800 anticipated some stuff goes right and some stuff goes wrong. 379 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:55,080 So how do you protect and support the team and treat them 380 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,040 as adults? It didn't grow quite to plan. 381 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,880 What did we learn? It did go to plan and some what 382 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,280 did we learn? And then they're also 383 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,360 communicating that up the hierarchy, which again to fancy 384 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:18,320 pants it is by exploring like, so exploring risk appetite and 385 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,520 really explaining and giving seniors visibility. 386 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,600 Can you guarantee me that this gets done? 387 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,960 Of course I can't. There's a risk. 388 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,160 I will outline the risk, but we can also explain the opportunity 389 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:37,400 that exists. So giving options for what if 390 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:44,760 things start to crack under the strain, what can we do to close 391 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,200 the project there on secure revenue as is, But also if 392 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,720 things start to go right, where might some options be to explore 393 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,400 this and expose this a bit further and really release the 394 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,120 potential. So great project managers doing 395 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,680 something that I love doing it well, doing it professionally, 396 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,480 leaving a legacy. Do you know, the only thing I've 397 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,360 had is, and I'm sort of, it's the place, I mean, it's the 398 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,520 really good understanding of data and performance. 399 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:26,600 So I I know what I do, and I can see results that come from my 400 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:32,040 effort and our team's efforts. But how does that roof fit into 401 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,960 a wider landscape? And that's where we need really 402 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,600 good data. And I think the analogy is with 403 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,680 people in medicine. So you know that they do their 404 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,440 best to support patients and get patients, families and so on, 405 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,320 and they'll always give the best advice. 406 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,680 But medicine and public health is all about understanding 407 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,720 statistics and efficacy and we have a version of that in 408 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,720 project management which is if I do this do I get that And it and 409 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,400 it might not be guaranteed, it might not be a straight line, 410 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,120 but it might be. If you do this, you are more 411 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:19,600 likely to get the output you sort then doing option B and 412 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,800 that requires data and that requires a sort of a sort of 413 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,360 degree of science to be in operation at professional level. 414 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,920 So understanding data and performance and and 415 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:39,240 understanding efficacy, but also contributing to that 416 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,200 understanding I think is the way the profession moves forward 417 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,440 collectively. So not so much project people 418 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,360 getting this project done, but the profession getting projects 419 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,960 done better when the profession is individuals. 420 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,200 So there's something in there as well. 421 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,240 Can't quite put my finger on it as precisely. 422 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,560 Andy Alder tells us that he's never come across a great 423 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,520 project manager who isn't also a great project leader. 424 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,400 Because in the real world, you need to bring those two things 425 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,680 together to be successful. You need to have a positive 426 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,560 mindset and the resilience to deal with setbacks that come 427 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,000 along. A top productivity tip? 428 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,760 If you're faced with a problem, start dealing with that 429 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,040 challenge straight away. Just get on with it. 430 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,800 Let's listen on for some more wise words. 431 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,840 I think it's, it's a combination of the, the clearly there's the 432 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,280 skills you know, of, of a project manager, all the kind of 433 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,760 the, the functions that sit within project management and 434 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,040 having the, the kind of skills and knowledge to, to apply 435 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,840 those. But I think that that's, that's 436 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,560 the kind of foundation. I don't think you can. 437 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,360 I know we understand what the difference is between leadership 438 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:59,000 and management, but I've, but I've never come across a good 439 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,440 project manager who's also not a, a good leader because, 440 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,920 because in practise you need bring those together. 441 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,840 Because everything we to, to apply the skills and the methods 442 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,880 of project management and to, to, to, to make them effective. 443 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,560 We need to bring people with us. And therefore there's that kind 444 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,480 of good, good dose of leadership to go with it. 445 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,960 Another thing that kind of the mindset pieces around, you know, 446 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,040 we project project management for, for small projects and 447 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,880 large projects, you get hit all the time with, with challenges 448 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,320 that come along, you know, issues that, that, that, that 449 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,560 arise. So having that kind of positive 450 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,960 mindset to, to understand and be focused on what you're trying to 451 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,040 achieve and not lose sight of that and to see your way through 452 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,000 the challenges that come along and to have the resilience to, 453 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,840 to, to deal with those kind of setbacks. 454 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:59,000 It is, is in is important. I think there's also a healthy 455 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,360 dose of, without beginning to kind of pessimistic about 456 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,120 things, there's a healthy dose of thinking about what could go 457 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,960 wrong here, What are the things that could really go wrong here 458 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,920 and what we're going to do to avoid them going wrong. 459 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,680 So there's a kind of blend of optimism of dealing with stuff 460 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,320 and pessimism of thinking like, what could go wrong? 461 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,120 What are they do to stop that going wrong? 462 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:27,120 Is there anything about so 2026 beginning for new year? 463 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,600 There's so much change that's come about in the last few 464 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,080 years. I'm thinking of AI because 465 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,120 you're political change. Have you got any advice to 466 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,080 people about how to manage all this change? 467 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:46,800 And it's ever increasing and it's fundamentally could change 468 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,080 the way we work and we are working what what advice would 469 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,680 you give to project managers about dealing well with this and 470 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,600 kind of thriving rather than just kind of flailing about and 471 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,720 feeling confused and anxious about everything? 472 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,440 Yeah, it's, I mean, you're right, there is a, there's a 473 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,480 lot, there's a lot going on, a lot, a lot of change. 474 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,760 And clearly we need to be conscious of that and think 475 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,640 about how that effects what we're, what we're trying to do. 476 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,880 So there is a danger you could spend all of your time worrying 477 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,200 about all the changes going on and, and how to navigate. 478 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,880 So I think there's a bit of trying to simplify things a bit 479 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,840 to, to understand, OK, what is the change that's going on? 480 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,040 How do I know enough about that to know what I've got to do to 481 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,680 manage my way through it? And then, and then focus on the, 482 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,000 the things you can do to, to, to manage through, through, through 483 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,240 change. And I guess it's like a lot of 484 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,400 challenges that come off in project management is that 485 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,440 there's a, there's an eminent judgement of how much detail do 486 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,440 I need to know about this problem to know what have I got 487 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,680 to do to manage this problem? And once you get to the point of 488 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,840 right, well, I'm, I, I could learn more and more about it, 489 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,120 but, but I know enough to know that actually the thing I need 490 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:08,680 to do is this. And then, and then put your 491 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,120 energy in, in the thing that you can do to, to kind of work, work 492 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,440 your way through, you know, those challenges. 493 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,920 I, I think it's definitely AI is, I mean, such a powerful 494 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,840 tool. We, we, you know, you started to 495 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,760 use it a lot can make life. You know, it can help to, to 496 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,360 process some certain things we have to do. 497 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,240 But like any tool like that, it's that dose of judgement you 498 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,640 need with it to make sure that you're asking the right 499 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,000 questions and the answers you get back applying the judgement 500 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,280 to say, is this really what what, what the right thing is 501 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,160 here? Lastly, we're recording this in 502 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,000 January. It's traditionally the time we 503 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,920 hear when people think about New Year's resolutions obviously and 504 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,760 self improvement. The only if you've got any focus 505 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,400 for self improvement this year. And if not, are there any kind 506 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,720 of personal productivity hacks, tips that you've picked up that 507 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,400 you'd pass on? Yeah, personally, I know one of 508 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,200 my tendencies is to, I mean, I like to really empower teams. 509 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,120 I like to really empower people to, to leave what they're doing. 510 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,560 I know I've got, because I'm interested in the stuff we're 511 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,800 doing. I've got a personal tendency to 512 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,120 get in the detail. And so I, so I've always got to 513 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,160 coach myself to get in the detail when it helps, but not 514 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,440 too much that I'm disempowering people and I've got to 515 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,280 constantly. Can I coach myself on that? 516 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,840 I guess the big thing for me is if there's a challenge, if 517 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,920 there's a problem that's come along today, deal with it today. 518 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,320 We're very, we can end up pushing problems, we'll do that 519 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:53,720 on tomorrow. And they just get bigger and 520 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,680 bigger. You know, there's nothing better 521 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,280 than problems come up, let's get hold of it and deal with it 522 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,600 today. And certainly on there was 523 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,480 things on, on, on, you know, back on on Crosshall and on 524 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,560 Tideway where just because we got hold of a challenge and we 525 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,600 got the right people around the table and we got hard of a 526 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,280 challenge quickly and early, we stopped that becoming much, much 527 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,040 bigger. Yeah, I I agree with you 100% on 528 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:18,800 that. That's great. 529 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,360 Was there anything else you wanted to add? 530 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,720 Big, big part of this is keeping that focus on the end goal. 531 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,360 What is it we're all trying to achieve? 532 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,640 Making sure that that everyone understands that end goal and 533 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,840 they understand the activity that they're doing, the part of 534 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,400 the, the, the, the, the project they're working on, how what 535 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,440 they're doing links here with everybody else and how that all 536 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,600 feeds them with that end goal. Yeah, as well as the skills of 537 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,000 being a project manager, helping the whole team to see how they 538 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,280 all come together to deliver what you're trying to deliver. 539 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,560 Is is is a massive part of it. Finally, let's get some top tips 540 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,960 from Anne Marie Purcell. She says a great project manager 541 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,000 is someone who has a passion for hitting deadlines, delivering 542 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,000 outcomes, having grit, and being skilled at whack A mole. 543 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,640 You also need to be a really good people person to be able to 544 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,760 influence and motivate your team to come along with you and be 545 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,040 good at conflict management that comes to a change. 546 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,360 Treat your team like a family, she says. 547 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,760 I think a process, a person who likes process, is great, but 548 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,800 actually what makes a really good project manager is someone 549 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:31,000 who has a passion for hitting deadlines and delivering 550 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,880 outcomes. And so, yeah, I mean, for me, 551 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,040 there's people who do the job, who follow the right ways of 552 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,240 working and do the right things. But the difference is somebody 553 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,280 you actually, you know, that deadline and that outcome 554 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,160 really, really matters. That that for me is what makes a 555 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,640 really great project manager. And in terms of skills, I think 556 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:59,280 it's and personality, I think it's someone who who has grit 557 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,840 and determination, someone who doesn't take no for an answer 558 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,440 and someone who comes up with solutions to problems 559 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,040 consistently. So for me, I use the terminology 560 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,960 whack a moles constantly whacking A mole and getting rid 561 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,680 of a problem in order to hit your deadline. 562 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,520 And that steely I'd focus on it is really is really what makes a 563 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,720 great project manager. Is that are they one of those 564 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,440 skills or qualities that you can learn to get better at, or is it 565 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,880 something very much just what you have? 566 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,320 I think it's a mixture of both. I think some people can learn 567 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,920 kind of confidence and grit and solutionize and I think they're 568 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,600 the things that people can probably get. 569 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,280 I think however, that kind of in your belly gut about kind of the 570 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,960 deadline matters is something that does come only for certain 571 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,040 people. I think if you get stressed 572 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,760 about a deadline rather than kind of running at it and, and 573 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,320 and pushing through it, I think it's probably not the right role 574 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,080 for you. I've met people who think they 575 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,160 want to be project managers but find stress and deadlines very 576 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,120 challenging. And for me, they're probably in 577 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,280 the wrong job. I think you have to be someone 578 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,800 who takes it on as a challenger deadline and kind of kind of 579 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,960 loves the intensity in the adrenaline from it. 580 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,760 And that's probably something that you can't learn. 581 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,560 I think that's probably part of your personality, but definitely 582 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,040 you can learn great and solutionize. 583 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,880 And I think I think they're the things that you can learn, but 584 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480 probably that kind of inu gut ability to deal and want to deal 585 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,960 with challenge and stress and adrenaline for a deadline is 586 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,040 probably sought in your personality. 587 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,560 What about when it comes to managing people and motivating 588 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,840 people and getting a project team aligned? 589 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,680 Is there anything that you've learned over the years that 590 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,640 makes for a great project manager? 591 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,920 What do they get right? I think people who are really 592 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,880 good people, people, I think that matters. 593 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,320 I mean, if you, if you think about what a project manager 594 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,480 does, they, they don't do some of the work themselves, they 595 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,720 rely on other people to do it. So you need to be able to 596 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,719 influence and encourage people to matter about this project as 597 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,840 much as you do, to care about the outcome and the deadline as 598 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,199 much as you do and influence and to go that bit further or or do 599 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,199 that work or solve a problem with you. 600 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,480 So I definitely think someone who is a people person, I think 601 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,400 is helpful, but in turn not too soft. 602 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,840 I think, you know, you have to be pretty robust because often 603 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,719 you are faced with difficult conversations. 604 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,199 There's a lot of conflict management in the role in terms 605 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,560 of either solving conflicts between groups of individuals 606 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,239 or, you know, directly. There can be quite a bit of 607 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,040 conflicts. Change generally can make people 608 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,400 scared and you know, for all emotional reasons and, and you 609 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,240 know, haven't being able to deal with that and and that often 610 00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,320 directed at you and being able to deal with it without taking 611 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,040 it personally and having a level of empathy about where people 612 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,800 are coming from and how to resolve them conflicts with a 613 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,160 bit of empathy and not taking it personally. 614 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,120 I think is is quite important really. 615 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,840 OK, thank you. And and finally, just to ask you 616 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,160 what makes a great, a kind of competent project manager, a 617 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,280 great project manager, what makes someone stand out at it? 618 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,240 Project management can often be peaks and troughs. 619 00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:28,080 I mean, that's big changes. I did went, but a lot of them 620 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,800 are peaks and troughs and and people who understand that and 621 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,760 kind of take the peaks with the peaks will be the people who are 622 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,920 successful in project management for me, people who see as a as a 623 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,480 process that they follow. And if the deadline is hit, the 624 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,880 deadlines hit. If it's not and it slips for me, 625 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,440 are the people who will, who will I'm sure will do fine, but 626 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,680 won't necessarily blow them, blow people away or go up that 627 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,680 chain in a career. They'll be the people who kind 628 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,520 of stay at a project management level. 629 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,520 Yeah, for for me, I can kind of spot people who are are just 630 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,960 there to do the project management role and those people 631 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,040 who have got got the ability to go much further with it really. 632 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,600 Sounds great, like a superpower you can get there. 633 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,800 Attracts all the best people for your teams because you can spot 634 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,400 them. Well, it is helpful. 635 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,640 Is there anything else you'd like to add? 636 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,720 For me, I think project managers who who treat the teams as 637 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,800 families is another one for me doing big change in 638 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,640 transformation. You spend a lot of time together 639 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,920 and having each other's back and knowing when other people need 640 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,000 support in your team and understanding where people's 641 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,280 skills and strengths are and playing that tune, particularly 642 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,800 as a leader, playing that between team. 643 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,160 Not all project managers are the same. 644 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,320 They all have different strengths and weaknesses and 645 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,840 knowing how to play together as a team and also, you know, 646 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,560 being, you know, it doesn't mean you always have to get on. 647 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,880 It's like any family, but when you become tight as a team, you 648 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,440 know they're the people who will get you through big change and 649 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,400 transformation and and I think being able to work really 650 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,680 effectively as a team player is undoubtedly a massive priority 651 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,040 for me as a project manager. I hope you've learned a lot from 652 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,720 what it means for a great project manager. 653 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,280 So thanks again to Tamson, Paul, Andy and Anne Marie for joining 654 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,800 us and to you for listening to the APM podcast. 655 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,080 So don't forget to look out for more episodes, auto rating, 656 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:30,880 reviews, wherever you get your podcasts. 657 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,080 Welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 658 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,120 suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 659 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,840 Spotify users, please do also leave us your comments. 660 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,200 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 661 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,600 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 662 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,960 visit apm.org.uk.