Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DVD, and I'm the
editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
today. In this podcast, we're talking
about the secrets of being a great project manager.
It's January and the time of year when many of us have New
Year's resolutions, or maybe just a vague idea of how we want
to change things up. So listen on for some excellent
advice from APM's Childhood Project Professional of the
Year, Tamzin Ali Balogun, who's also associate director for
Transporter ACCS Realist Paul Chapman OBE of the University of
Oxford Side Business School, where he is Academy director of
the UK Government's Major Project Leadership Academy, and
the older managing director for major infrastructure delivery at
Anglian Water and Anne Marie Purcell of Purcell Advisory.
If you want even more top tips, then listen to our first
installment of this podcast back in January 2025.
First, let's listen to Tamsin Ali Balagun for her secrets to
success. She says to keep focus on what
you need to do every day to achieve what needs to get done
in your project is what's needed.
Keep asking yourself what are we trying to do on this project and
prioritise, prioritise, prioritise.
And finally, remember that no project manager can be excellent
at everything. I think when it comes to a great
project manager, it's very it's very context specific.
So I think different project managers can be great in
different in different contexts, but but in terms of kind of what
tends what you tend to see when people are being great as
project managers, what they tend to be doing.
So I think the first thing I would say is that it's all about
that focus on what the project is aiming to do and the keeping
that daily kind of practise of of focusing what is this project
aiming to do? And therefore, what do I need to
do as a project manager to get that project kind of towards
that aim, you know, as as well as I can.
And I think where that goes wrong and where people aren't as
great, perhaps in their project management as they could be is
where you, you gather all the great knowledge of the tools and
the techniques and the best practise, but you lose sight of
what you're trying to achieve. And you can get lost then in
doing all of those, those best practises and they no longer
become best practise. It it would, it would be a best
practise in another context, perhaps.
But because you've lost track on, you know, sort of where
you're going, you start to use the tools in a way that isn't
kind of as, as as pragmatic as it could be.
So I think that's one thing is just to keep asking yourself,
what are we trying to do with this project?
What are we aiming at? And what do I need to do?
What do I need to use and how do I need to use it to steer this
project and this team in the right direction?
So that'd be the first thing I think kind of related to that is
about prioritising. So prioritise, prioritise,
prioritise every we, we cannot do everything that we need to do
as a project manager or that we want to do because time is time
is constrained and you know, there's always going to be lots
of things that people want us to do, etcetera.
So it's all about what are, you know, what are our biggest
risks? What are the issues that we need
to deal with urgently? What, what are our stakeholder
expectations? What do we need to make sure
other people know? And therefore, kind of in our
day-to-day, making sure that we're really staying focused on
the priority things. And again, not getting kind of
distracted into the things that we might enjoy as a project
manager, kind of tidying up, you know, this and that register and
schedule and these sorts of things.
We need them, but we need to make sure we're using them in a
way that kind of lets us deal with the priorities and kind of
takes us forward. OK, that sounds like 2 pieces of
really great advice. I wanted to ask you about the
people side of things. So the way that you manage
people, is there anyone that you've worked with or that you
recognise in yourself that you do well as and and helps make
you a really good project manager?
So I think, I think it's really important as project managers
that we that we influence and how we influence.
It's a really personal thing. There is not one way of being
influential. I think that's the risk is when
you look at how other people influence, you think, oh, they
are influencing really well. People listen to them.
If you then if you are not them and you try to kind of just just
reproduce what they do, you might well find that that
doesn't work for you. So I think kind of influencing
and being able to deal with people well is one of those
trial and error things. As a project manager, you have
to find your way. You have to find your way that
works for your personality, your skill set, for your career
stage. And it will be different for
everybody. So I've, I've kind of learnt
different bits of kind of how I influence or how I kind of
manage situations from, from different people that I've seen
kind of do it well. I think in particular, someone I
used to work with who was actually more more in management
than in project management, but she was brilliant at chairing a
meeting and just excellent kind of keeping everybody on track
and really owning it. And that is something that I do
try to emulate when I'm trying to kind of work through a
workshop. It's really important that you
cover everything in the time and being able to sort of stop
people when we're going down rabbit holes and kind of finding
ways of bringing everybody back on track in a way that's polite,
that kind of builds that rapport, but is really clear is
something that I've, I've learned, I learned first from
her and I've kind of made a bit of a reputation for myself
around being able to do that quite well.
So, so that's what 1 aspect kind of when you're in a group
situation. But, but I think when we're
dealing kind of 1 to one with people, there's a different,
very different kind of skill set needed there.
And sometimes it will be a more kind of reverent position that
we will take and a more kind of humbly asking for advice.
And, you know, kind of people will feel more likely to trust
us if they feel like we're listening to them.
So, so that can be, you know, actually quite a powerful way of
influencing is actually to give people that time to, to listen
and kind of respect their view and build the rapport that way.
And then in other situations, it'll be much more directive and
people will be looking to us, you know, to find out what they
need to do and really, really kind of hanging on every word.
And so I think it's you've got to be flexible as a project
manager, you've got to be able to read that situation as best
you can, try things and change and be open to kind of realising
that a situation didn't go very well.
Doesn't mean that you know, you can't do it just means that next
time you need to kind of think a little bit differently about how
you approach it, plan it a little bit differently and, and
try again because that that we will all have conversations that
don't go well. However, however experienced we
are, nobody's ever kind of perfected it because because
it's always so kind of context specific.
Yes, you're right and I really like what you're saying.
I think part of what you're saying is know yourself for what
works for you. So you only think maybe you can
pick and choose what you admire from other people that seem
successful, but then you make it your own.
Will you work what's best for you and?
To have that adaptability to. Different situations and I guess
you're just learning the whole time how to do it better, don't
you, from every experience you have.
I just had a couple of last questions.
One would be, what's the difference between a good
project manager and someone who's excellent, You know, the
people that you notice. Is that something you've ever
thought about or noticed? I think that's a really good
question. And I think it's one that all
project managers kind of should should be asking of themselves.
You know, am I, am I excelling at what I do?
And I think my view is that once you've achieved kind of
competence as a project manager, by which I mean you've got some
theory behind, you've got some qualifications, you've developed
some confidence and you've kind of developed your network a bit.
You've got that experience of different types of projects.
You're starting to feel like you do know what you're doing and
you know this is the career for you.
Being able to show excellence then becomes context specific
and it's again, it's back to the fact that you come with your own
strengths. So project management is really
broad. There's loads of bits to it.
I'm not brilliant at all the bits I don't think any of us
could say that we were. So there will be contexts and
projects and people where if you put me as a project manager, I
will do brilliantly well. There'll be other contexts where
you put me as a project manager and I hope I would be competent,
but I might accept competent as, as, you know, the best I could
do in that situation situation. And that's why I think as we go
through a career, we work on different types of projects,
realising and working out kind of which are those contexts that
allow us to bring out our strengths and to do what we do
with, with kind of skills experience that we've got really
well. You know that that's really what
you're aiming for, isn't it? So that you you can thrive in
your career and people that have got different skill sets and
project managers that kind of prefer a slightly different way
of working can go into those kind of other contexts and do
brilliantly well there. So I think there's this space,
it's for all of us, but sometimes when you feel like,
oh, perhaps I'm not as good as I thought I was, you probably just
found yourself in the wrong context for your particular kind
of skill set at that time. It's not to say you could never
thrive in that, but perhaps right now a different type of
project might might be a better fit.
OK, I love that. I love that.
Then finally, because we're recording this in January and
people tend to make New Year's resolutions and I think the
stats say by now most people have given up on them like we
were over halfway through January.
But it is a good point. It is.
It's kind of the time of year when everyone thinks about what
they might want to change or do better.
And I wondered if you had any news resolutions or any ideas
about or any focus on what you want to improve or work on in
terms of being a project manager in 2020?
Six, yes, I, I am. I do like to kind of take the
beginning of the year to think, well, Christmas is over and it's
that kind of little space at the start of the year before
everything gets busy. So I do tend to kind of be be
like a kind of a New Year's resolution type.
So for me this year, I think it's about being slightly more
deliberate in reading around the subject.
And it's not to say that I haven't read around the subject
of project management in the past, but I do tend to just pick
out the bits I'm really interested in and read more
about those bits and skim over, you know, perhaps the things
that aren't don't jump out as at me as being kind of quite so
interesting. But what I think I've kind of
realised that that does tend to take you a little bit into into
something of an echo chamber where you're only ever listening
to things that you kind of enjoy hearing.
And maybe focus on areas of project management that that you
already probably do quite well. And maybe don't need to kind of
focus as much on in, in rounding yourself off and working to that
kind of that standard of excellence that that we're all
kind of doing as we go through our career.
So I think for me, that means, for example, when I get Project
magazine, read all of it, not just flick it and read the bits
that, Oh, I like that topic. I'll read that because I found
that as I've started to do that and I have started.
You do think actually that was more interesting than I thought
it would be. It was more relevant to me than
I thought it would be. So it's that sort of judging a
book by its cover. I kind of just getting past that
and being a bit more disciplined so that what might be on social
media, or it might be, as I say, with Project magazine, it might
be that I'll go to some webinars or some events where the, the
topic doesn't jump out at me at first.
But I think actually this is where I need to be finding out
like what this does mean for me. And, and that's where I'll kind
of learn more this year. So I think that's, that's my
main one. And then I think there's also
because I won the, the chartered project Professional of the Year
award last year, which was all about recognising people who
give back to the profession. And I do give back to the
profession. So it's lovely to have that,
that recognition, but it does make me think, OK, I need I, you
know, the more, the more that you are recognised for doing it,
the more you feel that that duty, the more of a platform you
have to sort of be, be that role model.
So the other part for me is thinking, what does that mean
for me to be a role model? Where are there opportunities
that I'm not taking to kind of give back more or give back in a
slightly more kind of strategic way?
Or perhaps it's kind of to do some more deep, deeper mentoring
with project managers, you know, where, where can I get better at
doing that? So I don't think we should, we
should ever be kind of complacent.
OK. Tamsin, that was brilliant.
Thank you. Is there anything else you'd
like to add? I think the only thing that I
thought I would like to add probably is about being proud of
what we do. And this is something that I've
been on quite a journey with in my in my career.
Because when I moved into my current organisation, which is
an engineering design organisation primarily, I really
felt conscious that most people were engineers and I wasn't.
And I and I didn't feel as proud to be arriving as a project
manager as I look back and I think I should have been.
So I think being proud of kind of what you do as a project
professional, it's really important to to kind of keep
your confidence going to keep your morale up when things, you
know, inevitably get harder and easier as the year goes on.
So in those kind of low points, I think having that pride and
where you can kind of draw on that pride is by going out and
kind of spending time with other project professionals, which is
what I do. And I love it.
And I get really excited these days for networking where it's,
you know, other events and events where I will be with
other project professionals don't even have to be talking
about projects. It's just getting to know other
people who are in similar kind of roles to you, listening to
them talking about what they do. I feel like this kind of really
helps you understand the impact of of this career, this
profession on society. And it really does make you much
more proud to kind of be doing what you're doing.
And then you can bring that pride kind of back into your
day-to-day. So I think that's something that
I would love to see more project managers starting to get engaged
this year with the with the with the profession to build their
own networks and just to kind of see how much that kind of rounds
you off as a project manager and and gives you that energy.
Now let's listen to Paul Chapman, who believes that a
great project manager is someone who's doing something they love.
Project professionals really shine when the work they do is
something they feel passionate about and bring their talents to
bear. I I won't make any claims about
me, but I have a very fortunate position of working with a lot
of different project managers. So I think I've got to see in
action somewhere between 2 and 3000, which is, which is not a
bad data set and there are a few of them that really stand out.
I think the jumping off point here is being good, excellent.
Yeah, we love that. But the question is what makes a
great project manager? And I think one of the things
that really stands out is people doing something they love.
And there's something about project professionals, which is
they can get projects done and. Yeah, some days better than
others, some projects but than others.
But you can see they really shine when it's something they
feel passionate about and they can bring all their talents to
bed. I think that's important because
as professionals we should be professional.
And then you're on at your best when it's something you love
doing. So there's not just been good at
it which practise and technique, there's that kind of next layer.
And I think in the really great project managers that they're
doing something more so getting the project done, well done,
round of applause. But they're thinking left and
right. They're thinking up and down.
And I think the left and right is important by which I mean
sort of timeline that they're thinking about the outcome that
they will deliver. So great project managers
understand operations. When we land this capability
into practise, what will it do? What are some of the tricky
things that we'll encounter in the future, Next week, the week
after next month, when it's been running for 10 years?
OK. So they're doing stuff now in
anticipation of that, but they're sort of thinking to the
left as well, which is sort of thinking back in time, which is
kind of they're sort of planning the next project.
So, so great project managers getting stuff done should have
been in place to advise people when they were thinking about
the project. In the public sector, advising
on policy in the private sector, advising on strategy and
planning. We're going to do some wondrous
thing. The great project manager is on
hand to provide that advice. You can do pretty much anything
in any way. However, I would advise
recommend these following things that I think that's the thinking
sort of left and thinking right and the thinking up thinking
down idea is love them or load the most of us operate in a
hierarchy. There are people with sort of
authority different levels of power.
Hey ho, let's let's just run with that really great project
managers can think up. So what are their clients
thinking? What are the demands and
challenges they face or in an organisation, what's the kind of
what's the boss thinking? And actually what's their boss
thinking? So trying to understand their
position, to anticipate the challenges.
So if project managers are the people getting stuff done,
they're often reporting into people who have to manage
budgets and finance and for reasons outside of everyone's
control, spending this year might not be as much or could be
more than anticipated. Great project managers have
already explored those ideas. Maybe the organisation strategy
has up to pivot. Great project managers have
anticipated that. And then thinking down, one of
the things we we we really took away from COVID pandemic
experience was really understanding who frontline
workers are because they're really people who get stuff
done. And great project managers know
about the people who will be delivering the projects.
So operation metres, but also frontline stuff.
So they're acting as the risk of using a fancy term interlocutor
that they're working across boundaries and representing
interests up and representing interests down.
So they're very enabling and supportive.
So I think that's some of the things that they do.
They also do something more in terms of legacy.
We think about the Iron triangle getting projects done on cost,
on time deliver. I think that often misses a
fourth something or or stool triangle, the fourth thing,
which is which is people. And it was the sort of late
Martin Barnes who referred to project management as people
getting stuff done. And the people element is really
important on a bad day on a project, you can get stuff done,
but you're really squeezing the asset, bleeding the resource.
Basically it the consequences on people and great project
managers use the project to develop.
And enhance capability, not deplete it.
And I think that leans in a little bit of, you know, one of
the great project managers look to achieve or get project done,
yes. And also leave a legacy.
And often that legacy is in that tea.
They're they're better, they've had exposure, they've had
experience, they've they've come on because of the project.
And I think somewhere in there is also this mix of having
anticipated some stuff goes right and some stuff goes wrong.
So how do you protect and support the team and treat them
as adults? It didn't grow quite to plan.
What did we learn? It did go to plan and some what
did we learn? And then they're also
communicating that up the hierarchy, which again to fancy
pants it is by exploring like, so exploring risk appetite and
really explaining and giving seniors visibility.
Can you guarantee me that this gets done?
Of course I can't. There's a risk.
I will outline the risk, but we can also explain the opportunity
that exists. So giving options for what if
things start to crack under the strain, what can we do to close
the project there on secure revenue as is, But also if
things start to go right, where might some options be to explore
this and expose this a bit further and really release the
potential. So great project managers doing
something that I love doing it well, doing it professionally,
leaving a legacy. Do you know, the only thing I've
had is, and I'm sort of, it's the place, I mean, it's the
really good understanding of data and performance.
So I I know what I do, and I can see results that come from my
effort and our team's efforts. But how does that roof fit into
a wider landscape? And that's where we need really
good data. And I think the analogy is with
people in medicine. So you know that they do their
best to support patients and get patients, families and so on,
and they'll always give the best advice.
But medicine and public health is all about understanding
statistics and efficacy and we have a version of that in
project management which is if I do this do I get that And it and
it might not be guaranteed, it might not be a straight line,
but it might be. If you do this, you are more
likely to get the output you sort then doing option B and
that requires data and that requires a sort of a sort of
degree of science to be in operation at professional level.
So understanding data and performance and and
understanding efficacy, but also contributing to that
understanding I think is the way the profession moves forward
collectively. So not so much project people
getting this project done, but the profession getting projects
done better when the profession is individuals.
So there's something in there as well.
Can't quite put my finger on it as precisely.
Andy Alder tells us that he's never come across a great
project manager who isn't also a great project leader.
Because in the real world, you need to bring those two things
together to be successful. You need to have a positive
mindset and the resilience to deal with setbacks that come
along. A top productivity tip?
If you're faced with a problem, start dealing with that
challenge straight away. Just get on with it.
Let's listen on for some more wise words.
I think it's, it's a combination of the, the clearly there's the
skills you know, of, of a project manager, all the kind of
the, the functions that sit within project management and
having the, the kind of skills and knowledge to, to apply
those. But I think that that's, that's
the kind of foundation. I don't think you can.
I know we understand what the difference is between leadership
and management, but I've, but I've never come across a good
project manager who's also not a, a good leader because,
because in practise you need bring those together.
Because everything we to, to apply the skills and the methods
of project management and to, to, to, to make them effective.
We need to bring people with us. And therefore there's that kind
of good, good dose of leadership to go with it.
Another thing that kind of the mindset pieces around, you know,
we project project management for, for small projects and
large projects, you get hit all the time with, with challenges
that come along, you know, issues that, that, that, that
arise. So having that kind of positive
mindset to, to understand and be focused on what you're trying to
achieve and not lose sight of that and to see your way through
the challenges that come along and to have the resilience to,
to, to deal with those kind of setbacks.
It is, is in is important. I think there's also a healthy
dose of, without beginning to kind of pessimistic about
things, there's a healthy dose of thinking about what could go
wrong here, What are the things that could really go wrong here
and what we're going to do to avoid them going wrong.
So there's a kind of blend of optimism of dealing with stuff
and pessimism of thinking like, what could go wrong?
What are they do to stop that going wrong?
Is there anything about so 2026 beginning for new year?
There's so much change that's come about in the last few
years. I'm thinking of AI because
you're political change. Have you got any advice to
people about how to manage all this change?
And it's ever increasing and it's fundamentally could change
the way we work and we are working what what advice would
you give to project managers about dealing well with this and
kind of thriving rather than just kind of flailing about and
feeling confused and anxious about everything?
Yeah, it's, I mean, you're right, there is a, there's a
lot, there's a lot going on, a lot, a lot of change.
And clearly we need to be conscious of that and think
about how that effects what we're, what we're trying to do.
So there is a danger you could spend all of your time worrying
about all the changes going on and, and how to navigate.
So I think there's a bit of trying to simplify things a bit
to, to understand, OK, what is the change that's going on?
How do I know enough about that to know what I've got to do to
manage my way through it? And then, and then focus on the,
the things you can do to, to, to manage through, through, through
change. And I guess it's like a lot of
challenges that come off in project management is that
there's a, there's an eminent judgement of how much detail do
I need to know about this problem to know what have I got
to do to manage this problem? And once you get to the point of
right, well, I'm, I, I could learn more and more about it,
but, but I know enough to know that actually the thing I need
to do is this. And then, and then put your
energy in, in the thing that you can do to, to kind of work, work
your way through, you know, those challenges.
I, I think it's definitely AI is, I mean, such a powerful
tool. We, we, you know, you started to
use it a lot can make life. You know, it can help to, to
process some certain things we have to do.
But like any tool like that, it's that dose of judgement you
need with it to make sure that you're asking the right
questions and the answers you get back applying the judgement
to say, is this really what what, what the right thing is
here? Lastly, we're recording this in
January. It's traditionally the time we
hear when people think about New Year's resolutions obviously and
self improvement. The only if you've got any focus
for self improvement this year. And if not, are there any kind
of personal productivity hacks, tips that you've picked up that
you'd pass on? Yeah, personally, I know one of
my tendencies is to, I mean, I like to really empower teams.
I like to really empower people to, to leave what they're doing.
I know I've got, because I'm interested in the stuff we're
doing. I've got a personal tendency to
get in the detail. And so I, so I've always got to
coach myself to get in the detail when it helps, but not
too much that I'm disempowering people and I've got to
constantly. Can I coach myself on that?
I guess the big thing for me is if there's a challenge, if
there's a problem that's come along today, deal with it today.
We're very, we can end up pushing problems, we'll do that
on tomorrow. And they just get bigger and
bigger. You know, there's nothing better
than problems come up, let's get hold of it and deal with it
today. And certainly on there was
things on, on, on, you know, back on on Crosshall and on
Tideway where just because we got hold of a challenge and we
got the right people around the table and we got hard of a
challenge quickly and early, we stopped that becoming much, much
bigger. Yeah, I I agree with you 100% on
that. That's great.
Was there anything else you wanted to add?
Big, big part of this is keeping that focus on the end goal.
What is it we're all trying to achieve?
Making sure that that everyone understands that end goal and
they understand the activity that they're doing, the part of
the, the, the, the, the project they're working on, how what
they're doing links here with everybody else and how that all
feeds them with that end goal. Yeah, as well as the skills of
being a project manager, helping the whole team to see how they
all come together to deliver what you're trying to deliver.
Is is is a massive part of it. Finally, let's get some top tips
from Anne Marie Purcell. She says a great project manager
is someone who has a passion for hitting deadlines, delivering
outcomes, having grit, and being skilled at whack A mole.
You also need to be a really good people person to be able to
influence and motivate your team to come along with you and be
good at conflict management that comes to a change.
Treat your team like a family, she says.
I think a process, a person who likes process, is great, but
actually what makes a really good project manager is someone
who has a passion for hitting deadlines and delivering
outcomes. And so, yeah, I mean, for me,
there's people who do the job, who follow the right ways of
working and do the right things. But the difference is somebody
you actually, you know, that deadline and that outcome
really, really matters. That that for me is what makes a
really great project manager. And in terms of skills, I think
it's and personality, I think it's someone who who has grit
and determination, someone who doesn't take no for an answer
and someone who comes up with solutions to problems
consistently. So for me, I use the terminology
whack a moles constantly whacking A mole and getting rid
of a problem in order to hit your deadline.
And that steely I'd focus on it is really is really what makes a
great project manager. Is that are they one of those
skills or qualities that you can learn to get better at, or is it
something very much just what you have?
I think it's a mixture of both. I think some people can learn
kind of confidence and grit and solutionize and I think they're
the things that people can probably get.
I think however, that kind of in your belly gut about kind of the
deadline matters is something that does come only for certain
people. I think if you get stressed
about a deadline rather than kind of running at it and, and
and pushing through it, I think it's probably not the right role
for you. I've met people who think they
want to be project managers but find stress and deadlines very
challenging. And for me, they're probably in
the wrong job. I think you have to be someone
who takes it on as a challenger deadline and kind of kind of
loves the intensity in the adrenaline from it.
And that's probably something that you can't learn.
I think that's probably part of your personality, but definitely
you can learn great and solutionize.
And I think I think they're the things that you can learn, but
probably that kind of inu gut ability to deal and want to deal
with challenge and stress and adrenaline for a deadline is
probably sought in your personality.
What about when it comes to managing people and motivating
people and getting a project team aligned?
Is there anything that you've learned over the years that
makes for a great project manager?
What do they get right? I think people who are really
good people, people, I think that matters.
I mean, if you, if you think about what a project manager
does, they, they don't do some of the work themselves, they
rely on other people to do it. So you need to be able to
influence and encourage people to matter about this project as
much as you do, to care about the outcome and the deadline as
much as you do and influence and to go that bit further or or do
that work or solve a problem with you.
So I definitely think someone who is a people person, I think
is helpful, but in turn not too soft.
I think, you know, you have to be pretty robust because often
you are faced with difficult conversations.
There's a lot of conflict management in the role in terms
of either solving conflicts between groups of individuals
or, you know, directly. There can be quite a bit of
conflicts. Change generally can make people
scared and you know, for all emotional reasons and, and you
know, haven't being able to deal with that and and that often
directed at you and being able to deal with it without taking
it personally and having a level of empathy about where people
are coming from and how to resolve them conflicts with a
bit of empathy and not taking it personally.
I think is is quite important really.
OK, thank you. And and finally, just to ask you
what makes a great, a kind of competent project manager, a
great project manager, what makes someone stand out at it?
Project management can often be peaks and troughs.
I mean, that's big changes. I did went, but a lot of them
are peaks and troughs and and people who understand that and
kind of take the peaks with the peaks will be the people who are
successful in project management for me, people who see as a as a
process that they follow. And if the deadline is hit, the
deadlines hit. If it's not and it slips for me,
are the people who will, who will I'm sure will do fine, but
won't necessarily blow them, blow people away or go up that
chain in a career. They'll be the people who kind
of stay at a project management level.
Yeah, for for me, I can kind of spot people who are are just
there to do the project management role and those people
who have got got the ability to go much further with it really.
Sounds great, like a superpower you can get there.
Attracts all the best people for your teams because you can spot
them. Well, it is helpful.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
For me, I think project managers who who treat the teams as
families is another one for me doing big change in
transformation. You spend a lot of time together
and having each other's back and knowing when other people need
support in your team and understanding where people's
skills and strengths are and playing that tune, particularly
as a leader, playing that between team.
Not all project managers are the same.
They all have different strengths and weaknesses and
knowing how to play together as a team and also, you know,
being, you know, it doesn't mean you always have to get on.
It's like any family, but when you become tight as a team, you
know they're the people who will get you through big change and
transformation and and I think being able to work really
effectively as a team player is undoubtedly a massive priority
for me as a project manager. I hope you've learned a lot from
what it means for a great project manager.
So thanks again to Tamson, Paul, Andy and Anne Marie for joining
us and to you for listening to the APM podcast.
So don't forget to look out for more episodes, auto rating,
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This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
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visit apm.org.uk.