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Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the chartered body for 

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the project profession. 
My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 

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the editor of Project APM's 
quarterly journal and your host 

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in this podcast. 
I'm speaking to Anne Marie 

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Purcell, C-Suite Advisor and 
Transformational Change and 

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Delivery and transport, Namim 
Latif, Technical Director of 

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Digital Solutions at WSP, and 
Glenn Kelly, Programme Manager 

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at Costar Live Lab, about a 
subject we've probably all 

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chewed over at some point or 
another that is finding purpose 

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and meaning in your work. 
It's something we picked up on 

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in the Summer 2025 issue of 
Project Journal and one we've 

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wanted to explore further. 
When I interviewed Karina Singh,

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Director and Head of Government 
Project Delivery Profession at 

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NYSTA for Projects Begin to View
in the same issue, she told me 

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that that sense of purpose that 
you're doing something not just 

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for the bottom line, but also 
for the bigger impact that you 

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can have. 
That's where you get your 

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motivation. 
So listen on for an exploration 

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of what it is about work and 
projects that get some project 

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professionals to leap out of bed
in the morning. 

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Is it feeling part of a project 
that leaves the world a better 

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place? 
Is it about a sense of 

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achievement or fulfilment? 
Is it working with people? 

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Or is it the challenge of 
getting stuck into really knotty

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problems and finding a way 
around them? 

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And if you do derive a strong 
sense of purpose, what benefits 

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does that bring to your own work
and to your team? 

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We also hope to pass on some 
food for thought that can help 

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you reflect on your own sense of
motivation and if you're lacking

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a connection to the bigger 
picture, how you might attain 

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it. 
So I'd like to welcome everyone.

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Perhaps we could spend a couple 
of minutes each of you just 

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introducing yourself, explain a 
bit about your job role and 

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responsibilities and maybe a bit
about the projects you've worked

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on recently or you're working on
right now. 

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So sure, we begin. 
Let's begin with Namin. 

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Hi, Namin. 
Hi there. 

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Yes, so I may, as you mentioned,
I'm working for WSP, it's a 

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global engineering firm and I'm 
a technical director of digital 

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solutions. 
So what does that mean? 

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I've got a team of digital 
consultants and we help projects

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with programme management 
solutions, digitising anything 

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in their PMO. 
Personally, my background, I've 

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been working in major 
infrastructure projects for 25 

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years. 
So a lot in transport, mining, 

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energy, but all sorts of kind of
governmental LED projects 

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mostly. 
I'm also interested in data and 

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AI. 
So outside of work, I'm in the 

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project data analytics task 
force. 

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So quite passionate about how we
harness the power of data and AI

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for good really. 
Actually, I'm going to sneak in 

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a question here, which is what? 
What got you into project 

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management and what do you enjoy
about it in general? 

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So I fell into project 
management by mistake really. 

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My undergraduate degree was 
psychology, which is obviously, 

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well, it probably is quite 
related to project management 

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nowadays, but I didn't see the 
link back then. 

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So I didn't know what to do for 
a job. 

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I got a temporary job in Network
Rail doing something called 

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possession planning. 
But really it was manipulating 

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Excel spreadsheets to make some 
nice visual outputs of where 

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what was happening on the 
railway. 

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And I got talking to the lead of
the team who said, have you 

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considered becoming a project 
planner? 

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And I was like, no, what's a 
project planner? 

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So then I got into the world of 
planning engineering and it got 

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very technical quite quickly and
I quite enjoyed it and was very 

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different from psychology. 
And I think I welcomed the 

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challenge. 
And then in doing that, I got 

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more into the programme 
management office, coordinating 

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major works. 
And then it was really just 

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around a project management 
career ladder, really. 

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OK, thank you. 
But what are you working on 

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right now? 
At the moment I'm working with 

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National Grid on their great 
grid upgrade programme. 

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So that's basically around 
decarbonizing the energy network

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as a goal to do that within the 
next five years. 

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And it's connecting the wind 
power from Scotland through 

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subsea cables and then new 
infrastructure on land and 

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upgrading infrastructure, so 
pylons, substations, cabling. 

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But yeah, it's very exciting to 
be part of that. 

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That is a very big picture 
project for the country, so 

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we'll come back to that later. 
Thank you for that, Glenn. 

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Tell us a bit about you and the 
projects you're working where 

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you are right now. 
Hi, my name is Glenn Kelly. 

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I'm Programme Manager for Costar
Live Lab based at the University

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of York. 
So Costar is one of five 

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national R&D labs for the 
creative industries. 

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We were built following a £75 
million investment from the Arts

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and Humanities Research Council.
It's the, it's the UK 

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government's largest ever 
investment into the creative 

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industries. 
And yeah, so I'm programme 

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manager here. 
We essentially our remit is to, 

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well, First off, we had to build
the place, which was the sort of

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first six months to a year of my
role here. 

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And now we are running sort of 
business support programmes and 

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R&D funding calls to help 
businesses who would not usually

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have access to the type of kit 
that's behind me to come and use

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it, develop new IP, 
commercialise the IP and then go

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on and bring bring income into 
the sector and create jobs off 

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the back of that. 
And which famous people have 

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come through the doors? 
So we're based at Production 

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Park, which is a little hidden 
gem in South Kirkby, just just 

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South of Pontefract. 
So, yeah, previous to this, I 

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was working in a rundown 
industrial chemical site in 

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Teesside. 
And now I'm I'm the rehearsal 

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space for the likes of The 
Rolling Stones and Beyoncé and 

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Jay-Z. 
So it's a bit of a bit of a 

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culture shock and a nice change.
But yeah, it's it's, it's not a 

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really, really fun place to 
work. 

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OK. 
Thank you. 

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And previous to this, you were 
shortlist I think for one of the

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APM awards for your network on 
the Net 0 initiative, is that 

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right? 
Yes, yeah. 

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So my background is in sort of 
the energy industry, nonprofit 

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and universities. 
So the project that I delivered 

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for Teesside is the Net 0 
industry Innovation Centre, 

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which we completed in summer of 
2023, which was a sort of really

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high profile publicly funded 
innovation centre for net zero 

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technologies. 
We've got creating sustainable 

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energy solutions, So yeah, 
delivered that 2023, went into a

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role in the energy industry off 
the back of that and then joined

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Costar last year. 
And what was it about project 

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management that drew you to it? 
Similar to Namin, it wasn't, it 

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wasn't a planned route for me 
coming out of university. 

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I did study business management 
at university, went into the 

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more account management side of 
things initially in the early 

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stage of my career. 
And then in one role, the 

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project manager left and we 
basically got told that there 

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wouldn't be hiring a 
replacement. 

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And it was up to me to sort of 
take on that role. 

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And I think it's, it's, it's a 
common theme throughout project 

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and programme management. 
It's often something that people

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fall into and think, actually, I
really enjoy this or actually 

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I'm quite good at this. 
And then go on to sort of work 

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up that, up that ladder. 
And so that that was how I 

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landed in the space. 
OK. 

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Thanks, Glenn and Marie. 
Again, you're familiar to APM 

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Projects readers, probably 
because of your work on B 

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Network, but tell us a bit about
your where you are right now and

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and maybe a bit about B Network 
and how you got into project 

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management. 
Yeah. 

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So I'm Anne Marie Purcell and I 
most recently was Chief 

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Transformation Officer at 
Transport for Greater Manchester

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and I was accountable for 
delivering the B network, which 

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is essentially the transport 
network in Manchester. 

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It's the first integrated 
transport network outside of 

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London. 
And my specific role was to make

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sure that we delivered the 
nationalisation or the 

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franchising of the bus services.
Manchester was the first in the 

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UK to take bus legislation from 
2017 and take back control into 

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public control, the bus network 
from a deregulated market, which

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had been like since 1986. 
And I was the first to lead on 

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that in the UK. 
And as a result, I'm now working

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as an advisor to all the other 
combined. 

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Well, not all of the combined 
authorities. 

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I'm working quite a number of 
the combined authorities and 

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Wales as a country who are going
down the same path. 

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So I'm currently working with 
South Yorkshire, W Midlands and 

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Wales, providing some advice 
into other local authorities and

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combined authorities and some 
into the DfT departments of 

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transport. 
And I'm also providing more 

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strategic change advice to 
broader change because I'm not 

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just a transport specialist, I'm
actually a transformational 

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change specialist who happens to
have delivered a big transport 

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pro programme. 
How I got into the industry was 

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completely by accident. 
I, I started off with a fashion 

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degree and I dropped out because
I couldn't afford it, ran a 

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nightclub, ran a bank, then 
ended up in Revenue and Customs 

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in VAT and then ended up on EVAC
as a PMO support, which is where

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you can put your VAT online. 
You never used to be able to do 

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that. 
There's always paper format. 

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Long time ago. 
I'm a bit old. 

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And, and then I ended up as a 
PMO support and then went 

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contracting, left Revenue and 
Customs because there was no 

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options of promotion revenue. 
I was with revenue customers 

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before when they were separated 
and when they merged and I went 

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contracting and I stayed like 
that for 12 years and slowly 

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built myself up to lead in large
scale programmes. 

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And then the job before my 
C-Suite role was as an employee 

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for Unilever and I LED a global 
transformation team for the 

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comms service. 
So I LED their transformation of

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their Wan, their wireless LAN, 
their team's voice with the team

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in Bangalore and Brazil until 
the B Network came calling and 

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that's when I left to go and 
join that programme and ended up

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as Chief Transformation Officer 
at TFGM. 

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OK, what a patchwork of projects
you'll bring to the podcast. 

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That's that's really and you're 
all accidental project managers 

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as well that you start software.
How interesting. 

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So what struck me about the 
project management profession 

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when I first came to it was I 
was actually really nicely 

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surprised at how motivated 
people seem to be and energise 

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that. 
If you think about the projects 

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you've worked on, the most 
successful ones, would you agree

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that that that kind of peers and
colleagues are motivated in 

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their work? 
Or is it just me as an outsider 

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noticing that? 
If you if you think about it, do

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you feel as though you do work 
in teens and with people who do 

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generally tend to be motivated 
by the projects or that type of 

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work? 
Namin, what do you think? 

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Yeah, I think so. 
I think the type of people if 

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we're accidentally or not drawn 
to project management, we're 

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normally naturally quite 
organised and driven people. 

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And you know, project management
is about delivering outcomes to 

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a particular set of time and and
other kind of thresholds. 

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So that naturally pushes us to 
want to be driving it forward 

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all the time. 
And in doing that, you know, can

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be working on pressurised 
environments. 

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So also under good leadership, 
we get a good culture. 

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And so we get to know our 
colleagues and peers so that we 

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can work with one another under 
pressure. 

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And I think it's that culture 
and that common purpose and also

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our just our natural ability to 
be organised that's kind of 

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helped to drive these projects 
forward. 

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Certainly when I've interviewed 
some people they've spoken about

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that there is is pressurised 
work often, but they get a buzz 

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from it. 
They're drawn to that kind of 

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having deadline driven work and 
that's part of the pleasure. 

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But I, I think I'm going to leap
in and just ask you personally 

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what, what gives you a sense of 
purpose and meaning in your 

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work? 
What do you really love about 

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it? 
I think I've I've appreciated it

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even more recently. 
You know, we've got the climate 

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emergency and what can we do? 
So if there's an opportunity to 

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blend that with what you're 
doing in your day job, it really

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does give you that sense of 
purpose that right my project, 

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it's going to help to 
decarbonize the energy network 

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or I'm thinking about carbon 
impacts and how I can mitigate 

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those as part of my project 
management process if it's a if 

230
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:41,480
it's a different sort of 
project. 

231
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,200
So that definitely does chime 
with me. 

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00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,800
And then a lot of the projects, 
aside from when they've been for

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00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,280
carbon reduction, some of the 
transport projects, it's really 

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00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:54,800
about then giving back to 
society. 

235
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,520
So we're creating a facility 
that enriches people's lives, 

236
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,160
gives them something. 
So that for me has been a 

237
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,440
massive driver and a lot of the 
projects I've been involved 

238
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,800
with. 
Is that key to you, for the 

239
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,040
roles you take that? 
Is that what draws you to them? 

240
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,000
The idea of connecting to the 
bigger picture, doing something 

241
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,760
for the greater good. 
Yeah, I mean, I've, I've because

242
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,680
I fell into transport, but then 
I enjoyed it. 

243
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:20,040
And then I see the impact of 
when you deliver a new rail 

244
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,040
service or you know what, 
whatever type of transport 

245
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,640
service it is, you see the 
benefit to the public When the 

246
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,560
other day I was, it's been very 
hot recently. 

247
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,840
So I was travelling on the 
Crossrail and despite it being 

248
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,840
late and all of that sort of 
thing, it's a fantastic service.

249
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,880
It really has improved people's 
lives, connecting different 

250
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,480
parts of of the city together 
and kind of helping with 

251
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,800
regeneration. 
So it does feel very good to to 

252
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,360
keep being parts of those 
projects. 

253
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,920
And maybe that's why I put 
myself forward for some of those

254
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,000
sorts of projects as well. 
Yeah, people have spoken to me 

255
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,680
about that, actually, the 
physical legacy of a project. 

256
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,960
Sometimes that you, it is a 
boss, it is getting on the 

257
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,920
Elizabeth line or it's a 
building that you've been 

258
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,280
involved with And the kind of 
almost showing the grandchildren

259
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,520
like this is what I did, This is
what I helped put together. 

260
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,840
That seems to be a nice thing to
have. 

261
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,720
Thank you. 
Namin Glenn, you work or have 

262
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,320
you worked with a sort of 
particularly motivated bunch of 

263
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,840
project professionals and where 
do you get your own sense of 

264
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,560
purpose, the meaning in your 
work? 

265
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,480
Yeah, I think, I think purpose 
is an individual thing and I can

266
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,280
only speak for myself, but I 
tend to feel more driven and 

267
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,120
motivated when one, I'm enjoying
the day-to-day work I'm doing. 

268
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,240
It's interesting, it's varied, 
but also that I feel like I'm 

269
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,640
competent and I'm providing 
value in my role. 

270
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,880
So I think if you, if you've got
those two boxes ticked off, you 

271
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,240
know, I've been in roles where I
felt capable and confident, but 

272
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:54,640
maybe not necessarily enjoyed 
it. 

273
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,400
And that's when the purpose 
started to drop in in the role. 

274
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,200
I mean, currently, you know, 
there's a real tangible benefit 

275
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,400
to the businesses we work with 
building sort of cutting edge 

276
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,440
infrastructure and I'm enjoying 
the day-to-day variety. 

277
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,160
So you know that that that's the
reason behind for me. 

278
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,120
My purpose comes from. 
Have you been good at 

279
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,480
discovering what makes you tick 
and what what's enjoyable 

280
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:20,640
through work? 
Is it? 

281
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,600
And then you kind of follow your
nose towards that. 

282
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,600
Yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

283
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,280
And I think you only get that 
from trying out new things and 

284
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,600
going into new industries and 
finding out different roles, 

285
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,200
which, which I'm a big proponent
of. 

286
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,160
Don't settle until you find 
something that you do enjoy 

287
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,600
getting up and, you know, doing 
every day because it's really 

288
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,000
empty. 
It's a big part of your life and

289
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,640
it's important that you enjoy 
what you do. 

290
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,000
Yeah, that's true. 
That's true. 

291
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,480
Anne Marie, tell us, have you 
worked with a big a bunch of 

292
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,440
motivated, highly motivated 
people? 

293
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,840
And I'm saying a bit tongue in 
cheek because not every day is 

294
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,280
like that and not everyone is 
motivated. 

295
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,080
Or you might have a bad manager 
one time. 

296
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,640
He doesn't, it doesn't help. 
But generally, if you look back 

297
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,200
over your career so far, do you 
feel as though there has been 

298
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,360
that kind of cohesive sense of 
purpose for some of the projects

299
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,400
you've worked on? 
Yeah. 

300
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,280
I mean, obviously I've worked as
part of teams and I've created 

301
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,240
and LED teams and I think I'm 
going to be really honest, I 

302
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,400
think being a project manager is
in your DNAII don't actually, I 

303
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,480
think you can train people, but 
to have that motivation to work 

304
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,400
the the the times of day that we
work. 

305
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,720
I mean, I in March this year was
the first time I had a break 

306
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,560
without an e-mail or a meeting 
long night. 

307
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,120
I think for the B Network, I was
doing 1819 hour days on meetings

308
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,120
at 11:00 PM at night with my 
deputy overnight long for three 

309
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,200
years. 
And I think it's in your, you've

310
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,480
got to have that in your DNA 
that you want to work like that 

311
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,680
and you want pressure and you 
like deadlines. 

312
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,080
You want to be the person who's 
up at 1:00 AM worrying about 

313
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,800
what tomorrow's going to look 
like and how you're going to 

314
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,040
deliver that problem. 
Because you know, if it's not in

315
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,240
your DNA, you're not going to be
like that. 

316
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,520
And that's not a criticism 
anyone. 

317
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,560
There's not a criticism of some 
project managers I've met who 

318
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,200
don't have that. 
But to be a really successful 

319
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,079
project and programme manager, 
it's part of your DNA. 

320
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,720
If I'm totally honest, it's part
of your personality. 

321
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,839
In the same way that I wouldn't 
suit being an accountant because

322
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:24,079
that would, that just doesn't 
suit me. 

323
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,960
I think you agree. 
I think it's part of your DNA. 

324
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,480
And I've and I generally build 
teams of people. 

325
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,960
I've got groups of people who've
worked with for years. 

326
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,880
I mean, it was remarkable about 
the fact that somebody guy, 

327
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,040
John, who I constantly take 
everywhere I go, I've known 

328
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,560
since 2017 and he's worked on 
three amazing big pieces of work

329
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,680
with me. 
And there's others and I think 

330
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,480
you find people they navigate 
towards each other when they're 

331
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,040
good at successful, they want to
be part of a successful team. 

332
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,600
So people want to come and join 
me when I'm leading big teams. 

333
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,480
And equally, I want to be part 
of teams with people who I know 

334
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,080
are going to, who I trust, who I
know we're going to get, pull it

335
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,480
all out when you need them to. 
Not going to give up. 

336
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,520
They're not going to go over. 
They're not going to leave a 

337
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,720
5:00 PM at night when they know 
there's a deadline just because 

338
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,320
it's 5:00 PM. 
And it's a hard job. 

339
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,680
And I think it requires people 
who've got that in tenacity, 

340
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,280
grit, determination. 
And it's not for the faint 

341
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,160
hearted. 
It also involves difficult 

342
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,200
conflicts influencing 
stakeholders who don't want to 

343
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,800
be influenced. 
You've got to have a knack of 

344
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,400
smiling when you don't want to 
smile. 

345
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,240
You've got to have a knack of 
women people slamming your fist 

346
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,240
on the table when that's the 
most appropriate time and 

347
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,600
building relationships, breaking
relationships to rebuild them 

348
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,960
sometimes. 
And it needs all of them skills 

349
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,600
and it's not for the fantastic. 
It genuinely isn't. 

350
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,320
If you want to get to really 
high levels in projects and 

351
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,920
programme management, it is 
that. 

352
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,920
And I've aged a lot and and I 
know I have because particularly

353
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,320
in the last three years and, 
and, but I love it. 

354
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,080
I love every minute of it. 
And the reason why I chose 

355
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,640
probably the B network and my 
purpose now is I am, I would 

356
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,720
love to say that every project 
I've worked on, I, it was like 

357
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,560
had meaning and it really 
mattered to me. 

358
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,000
Well, that's just nonsense. 
I'm 46. 

359
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,600
I mean, I had to go and do jobs 
that, OK, I'll deliver that 

360
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,720
project. 
I'm not saying it wasn't 

361
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,360
important and I didn't put all 
my all into it, but I can't say 

362
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,800
it left a legacy or anything 
like that. 

363
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,400
We just don't get to pick and 
choose like that. 

364
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,520
We've got to take the salary. 
But I suppose I'm at a point in 

365
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,040
my career now where I can, I 
absolutely can and I do choose 

366
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,240
where I go and what I do. 
And fortunately I'm in that 

367
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,120
position where I can afford to 
do that. 

368
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,880
It's not the same for every 
project manager, but I genuinely

369
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,720
think if you've got grit and 
purpose and you want to deliver,

370
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,440
you'll deliver. 
You'll deliver it anyway, even 

371
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:44,920
if it doesn't give you a 
purpose. 

372
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,040
And that will lead on to 
something that delivers a 

373
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,520
purpose. 
So for me, papers, delivering 

374
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,040
papers, teams, good teams, is 
where I get out or get out a 

375
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,200
minute really. 
I was just about to ask you, So 

376
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,720
what gives you a sense of 
purpose that's working with high

377
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,320
performing teams to people? 
I, I, people really matter. 

378
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,800
I mean, I love my teams. 
I build teams that I love 

379
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,600
working with. 
And you know what, I sent a 

380
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,440
message to someone quite 
important when I left TFGM and I

381
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,040
said in individually, every 
member of my team was high 

382
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,200
performing, but collectively 
they were superhuman because 

383
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,640
when one was down, the others 
were all you know, we delivered 

384
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,520
over Christmas in 202526. 
We were in a port, a cabin for 

385
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,120
six weeks. 
We were I'll, we had some people

386
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:36,000
off, we had some people in bed, 
we had floods, we had fog, we 

387
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,320
had snow. 
And one day I looked around, 

388
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,800
there was me and one other lad 
and everyone had gone down, but 

389
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,520
he was there. 
And then everyone swung back 

390
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,920
again after two weeks and we 
didn't want to let anyone down. 

391
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:51,520
And that sense of a team driving
towards something behind you or 

392
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,800
in front of you if you're not 
leading it and being part of 

393
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,640
that is just when it's works 
well. 

394
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,040
It's like they are your family. 
They are who you go to bed 

395
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,120
thinking about. 
They're who you wake up with 

396
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,240
because you're actually with 
them more than you're with at 

397
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,360
home to be honest. 
And I, I love all of them. 

398
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,280
And I've got memories, 
individual members about all of 

399
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320
them as well as team memories. 
So yeah, the B Net was bloody 

400
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,440
brilliant. 
I'm made-up with it. 

401
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,720
I'm chuffed. 
A bit of driving. 

402
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,960
I'm going to Manchester this 
afternoon. 

403
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,960
I'll see it. 
I love it, but actually it's 

404
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,680
them people who I've got for the
rest of my life as well as that 

405
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,160
and, and, and I love them. 
I love catching up with them and

406
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,960
seeing how they're getting on 
and making sure they're getting 

407
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,160
where they need to get to. 
Yes, it's people for me. 

408
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,560
OK, right. 
Well, I think you're very 

409
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,000
motivated by people's side of 
things. 

410
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,400
It seems that it's so nice to 
hear people talk about work in 

411
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,080
such a positive way. 
No, Maine. 

412
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,600
And Glenn, do you looking back 
over projects you've worked on 

413
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,320
or working on right now, are 
there any particular times where

414
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,000
you've thought, Joe, I'm going 
to, well, not maybe not leaping 

415
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,280
out of bed in the morning, but 
thinking I'm really looking 

416
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,240
forward to today. 
Is there a part of the project 

417
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,040
process that you love? 
Is that has there been a 

418
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,360
particular project that has 
really spoken to your individual

419
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,880
sense of motivational purpose 
that that brings to mind? 

420
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,840
I mean, I mean, it's cliche, but
I think in project and programme

421
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,920
management in general, it's no 
two days the same. 

422
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,120
And it's the variety that really
makes me want to come in every 

423
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,680
day. 
I mean, but in this role coming 

424
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,520
up just over a year and then, 
you know, since, since I 

425
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,800
arrived, I've been involved in 
everything from sort of 

426
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,520
commercial negotiations to 
contract and legal issues to 

427
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,520
construction recruitment and 
then event management and, you 

428
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,200
know, day-to-day operations. 
And it, it really is that that 

429
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,520
variety that keeps me coming 
back from odds. 

430
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,280
It's and again, like, like Anne 
Marie was saying, when it's, 

431
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,560
when you're really busy and 
you're working all hours under 

432
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,400
the sun, I feel like I really 
enjoy the sense of camaraderie 

433
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,280
that you develop with the team 
that you're working with. 

434
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,480
And also that sort of mix of 
chaos and structure. 

435
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,520
I find it weirdly satisfying. 
So that's that's me. 

436
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,680
As an outsider, it sounds as 
though it's, you know, like 

437
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,480
think partly thinking on your 
feet as well and that problem 

438
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,600
solving and like, let's, let's 
solve, let's solve this 

439
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,360
collaboratively. 
So it's a lot about the people 

440
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,960
side of projects, which is 
really nice to hear. 

441
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,120
Namin, has there been anything 
that has jumped out at you over 

442
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,880
your career that you that has 
really meant something to you or

443
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,360
has given you a real sense of 
purpose or just a buzz and 

444
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:25,920
thought I would you know what I 
love my job. 

445
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,720
I. 
Mean. 

446
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,080
I think it is that that 
infectious enthusiasm and, you 

447
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,720
know, having great leaders or 
you might be the leader yourself

448
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,920
and being able to set that, that
kind of culture in the team that

449
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,560
OK, it's difficult, but 
everyone's going to pull 

450
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,160
together and make it work. 
So I had an example earlier in 

451
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,440
my career where we were working 
on the West Coast route 

452
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,520
modernization. 
It was going badly wrong. 

453
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,160
There's all kinds of problems 
with, you know, accidents on the

454
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,560
railway. 
And we had this, we were kind of

455
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,720
given a window to sort it out 
and everyone got together. 

456
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,920
I think we, we kind of all 
started working in crew and we 

457
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,440
were coming from all over the 
country and we just kind of 

458
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,920
almost locked ourselves in, in a
hotel for about three weeks. 

459
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,400
And we came up with a very well 
coordinated plan across various 

460
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,000
different people of how we're 
going to bring it back on time. 

461
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,560
And, you know, we had the 
ministerial eyes on us. 

462
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,200
So it was pressurised, but there
was a real enthusiasm to get it 

463
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,560
done. 
There was no blame. 

464
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,360
It was like, let's bring the 
best minds together to solve 

465
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,600
this. 
And, and it was very empowering.

466
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,520
And we actually did manage to 
deliver what we planned in those

467
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,520
three weeks. 
So, you know, that was amazing. 

468
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,600
And it, it did kind of bring 
home, OK, there can be 

469
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,360
challenges and adversities, but 
with the right people, the right

470
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,880
attitude, the right leadership, 
we can, we can achieve a lot of 

471
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,240
things. 
How wonderful. 

472
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,760
I'm going to. 
I just want to pick you up, pick

473
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,320
up on that because I'm now 
thinking of listeners who 

474
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,720
perhaps aren't very experienced 
project managers or team 

475
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,440
leaders. 
Is there any advice you could 

476
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,680
pass on about managers, project 
managers, or leaders who've been

477
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,520
particularly good at giving a 
sense of purpose or motivation 

478
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,440
to a team? 
Are they kind of do's and 

479
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,440
don'ts? 
If you've noticed either as a 

480
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,120
manager or leader yourself or 
having worked under people that 

481
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:16,360
you've thought have done it 
particularly well, any any tips 

482
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:19,680
you could pass on about creating
that sense of purpose or 

483
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,480
motivation that you did want to 
pass on? 

484
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,360
Once somebody want in my team 
said to me, well, two people 

485
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,760
have said that to me over over 
time and probably a few other 

486
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,600
people have said it as well, is 
that I know when to be above 

487
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,840
managing the people above me. 
But I know when to drop down and

488
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,440
help the team and roll my 
sleeves up. 

489
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:44,680
And I think I've done every job 
in in projects and PMO so well, 

490
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,520
I say every job, pretty much 
every job. 

491
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,200
And therefore I know how tough 
them up. 

492
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,160
They all are. 
I've gone from the bottom to the

493
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,520
top. 
I haven't kind of just jumped at

494
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,240
the top. 
And for me, I think being 

495
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,400
prepared to roll your sleeves up
if you're a leader and being 

496
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280
amongst it all is really, really
key. 

497
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,760
You know, I, I have my high vis 
on my beanie for six weeks. 

498
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,880
I was there at 6:00 AM in the 
freezing cold. 

499
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,520
I've done it. 
I've been a wastewater treatment

500
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,440
sites which were particularly 
unpleasant. 

501
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,520
I've done, I've been there. 
I've, you know, be prepared to 

502
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,080
roll your sleeve up and dig deep
in with your team. 

503
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,440
Don't just float above them. 
You know, I think that is a 

504
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,440
motivation factor. 
And a few people have said to 

505
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,120
me, when you drop down, we we 
drop, we lift up. 

506
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,120
Do you know what I mean? 
So when you drop into the 

507
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,920
details, sometimes, not all the 
time, that's not particularly 

508
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,000
helpful as you're a leader, you 
need to empower people. 

509
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,680
But when they need you and you 
drop down, they said, and I was 

510
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,240
in the thick of it, I lifted 
them up. 

511
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,840
And I think, I think, I think 
that's really important. 

512
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,440
But equally knowing when to drop
down and when not to, when to 

513
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,960
empower and let people get on 
with the job and come to you 

514
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,960
when they've got a problem. 
But I think being prepared to 

515
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,360
roll your sleeves up and being 
amongst people when it, when I 

516
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,440
was going to swear, then when it
isn't a fan is really empowering

517
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,080
for people seeing leaders. 
And if you want to be somebody 

518
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,120
who wants to lead a team of 
project management, you need to 

519
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:08,000
remember that you've got to do 
all the jobs. 

520
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,400
You've got to understand it so 
that you can help advise and 

521
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,480
support people and to get people
motivated. 

522
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,760
Being prepared to roll your 
sleeves up is for me a 

523
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,080
fundamental part of being a 
leader and try and motivating 

524
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,320
people and showing them that 
you're willing to do. 

525
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,680
I have this saying, if the most 
important thing for me to do 

526
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,560
today is make the cup of tea to 
get this project delivered, I 

527
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,360
might be the most senior person 
in the room. 

528
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,040
But if that's the most important
thing is to buy people a cup of 

529
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,360
tea and that will trigger a wave
of delivery, then I'll do it. 

530
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:40,840
I'm not pressured. 
I don't care making the cup of 

531
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,160
tea or cleaning the toilet or 
whatever it is and whether I've 

532
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,600
got a chief transformation 
officer job title or I've not. 

533
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,720
If the priority for me is to 
clean a bus, which I've done, 

534
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,440
then that's what I'll do. 
Because if that needs to be done

535
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,520
today to get that bus going, 
then that's what I'll do. 

536
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,280
And I think as a leader, if you 
can show that ability to scale 

537
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,600
up and down that ladder and be 
at the right place at the right 

538
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,800
time, you'll motivate people. 
OK, that's great. 

539
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,760
And that's probably something 
that only comes through 

540
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,600
experience, so and. 
A little. 

541
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,400
And being confident to say, you 
know, I really have to do this 

542
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,240
seeing really very important 
piece of work. 

543
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,000
But I'm going to go and buy a 
cup of tea because that'll take 

544
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,360
two minutes and that'll lift 
people's spirits. 

545
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,640
So I guess it's trusting your 
own judgement as well, like on 

546
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,520
the human side of things. 
Glenn, I can see you nodding 

547
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:27,560
your head there. 
What? 

548
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,920
What advice would you pass on or
have there been leaders that 

549
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,440
have written that you've 
thought, Joe, I'm going to steal

550
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,520
what they do because that works 
and I'm going to you put that in

551
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,960
my repertoire of project 
management tools. 

552
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,120
I think you touched on it 
actually, Emma, in the editors 

553
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,080
letter of this issue of Projects
where you mentioned about 

554
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,800
zooming out and seeing the 
bigger picture. 

555
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,800
Thank you. 
So people actually read that. 

556
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:58,440
I have. 
That's my, that's my day. 

557
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,640
Thank you. 
Round point for Glenny and I 

558
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,600
think Glenn. 
No, I'm a, I'm a fan of the 

559
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,720
project issue and it's nothing 
to do with the fact that I'm in 

560
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,360
this this quarter's issue. 
Every. 

561
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,080
Every time they come out. 
But yeah, I think that that's an

562
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,120
important point for me about a 
project and a programme 

563
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,280
manager's job is often to make 
the implicit explicit. 

564
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,400
And that sometimes can mean, you
know, consistently zooming out, 

565
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,080
reminding people of what we're 
doing, why we're doing it, and 

566
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,520
equally, you know, making sure 
it's absolutely abundantly clear

567
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,160
that this is the overarching 
goal. 

568
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,560
This is what we're delivering. 
And this is what you as an 

569
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,760
individual are responsible for 
as part of working towards that 

570
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,520
sort of North Star. 
And just making sure, you know, 

571
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,440
you communicate clearly and 
often expectations and making 

572
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,640
sure everyone's, you know, we're
on the same boat, working on the

573
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,600
same goal. 
And I find that's really helpful

574
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,440
in terms of leadership and 
giving purpose to to your team. 

575
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,920
Thanks, Glenn. 
I mean, what have you picked up?

576
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,400
What What kind of valuable bits 
of advice would you like to pass

577
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,760
on that you've picked up over 
your career? 

578
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,600
Echoing everything that's been 
said already about, you know, 

579
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,640
why we hear the vision what 
everyone's going to do something

580
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,640
around Also rewarding, rewarding
people for when when there's 

581
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,840
good work as a team, as 
individuals. 

582
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,880
And then as we know, things 
don't go to plan on projects. 

583
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,440
So it's really around capturing 
that early as a as a learning 

584
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,040
point and not a stick. 
So, you know, I've seen some 

585
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,640
culture project cultures where 
it's been a bit tough than that,

586
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,560
you know, maybe behind on, on 
the schedule or the cost, but 

587
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,520
really it will be, can we turn 
that into an opportunity? 

588
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,880
What, what are the ideas that 
the team has collectively to do 

589
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,080
something different? 
And I think that's, that's the 

590
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,920
leadership quality to kind of 
not blame the team and to kind 

591
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,120
of keep, keep it upbeat and 
positive. 

592
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,320
So some of the best programmes 
I've worked on and I've worked 

593
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,440
on ones which are not been going
brilliantly, like Crossrail, for

594
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,760
example, it was the leadership 
and it was that ability to 

595
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,240
transform and say, this is where
we're at, There's some things 

596
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,560
out of our control. 
What are we going to do next? 

597
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,400
And then also just going again 
back to the personal bit. 

598
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,360
So just making sure that you 
know everyone on the team, it's 

599
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,360
not possible sometimes on very 
big teams of making sure that 

600
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,080
the structure is there, that 
everyone gets, you know, the 

601
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,520
right amount of time with 
whoever their leader is on the 

602
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,840
programme. 
Yeah, and I you just making me 

603
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,200
think of an interview I did with
it was a really senior person at

604
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,840
NASA who was responsible for the
James Webb Space Telescope. 

605
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,760
And I thought before I 
interviewed him, he's going to 

606
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,680
be a very serious man. 
I mean, he's in control of this,

607
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,440
this, you know, project 
programme, which is worth 

608
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,120
billions of dollars and, you 
know, a space programme. 

609
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,080
And he, he said the, the most 
important thing for him was 

610
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,520
having a sense of humour and 
having a laugh with the team. 

611
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,400
And it, and it makes you think, 
doesn't it like if you want a 

612
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,200
team to have that psychological 
safety or no blame culture, that

613
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,440
you've got to have a bit of that
somewhere. 

614
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,960
I think I'm really interested in
the mean that you've worked in 

615
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,920
teams. 
So that actually does happen. 

616
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,840
Like it's easier said than done 
it. 

617
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,880
How do you make that happen on 
the team? 

618
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,960
That idea of people being able 
to speak up or speak the truth 

619
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,480
and and go beyond the blame 
game, is there anything that 

620
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,520
that works? 
Is it about role modelling that 

621
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,640
behaviour for example? 
It is, it is. 

622
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,840
I'm far too bloody honest. 
If I'm totally honest. 

623
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,440
I'm like the person who tells 
people what they don't want to 

624
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,600
ear and you know, and and that's
up as well as sometimes down 

625
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,720
more often up than it is down, 
if I'm totally honest. 

626
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,400
And I think I think there's a, 
you know, being just be having a

627
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,680
level of integrity and in true 
to yourself. 

628
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,680
I think people like I am a 
terrible swearer. 

629
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,840
I mean, I'm absolutely atrocious
and you know, I don't hide from 

630
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,800
who I am. 
I'm a a blonde Scouse woman 

631
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,240
who's kicking backside to try 
and get stuff delivered. 

632
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,560
And I am unashamedly that 
person. 

633
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,320
Do you know what I mean? 
And I've got to the age where 

634
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,080
that matters to me, that I have 
integrity. 

635
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,720
When people speak to me, they 
know what I'm saying is 

636
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,120
truthful. 
And if I say I'm going to do 

637
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,720
something, I'm going to do it 
because I'm just who I am. 

638
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,280
And over the years I've thought,
you know, if I spoke a bit 

639
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,800
posture, if I toned the swearing
down, if I wasn't as bombastic 

640
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,880
and forceful and said what I 
think, it probably would have 

641
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,720
done my career better. 
But people see through that. 

642
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,120
And you can only keep that act 
up for so long. 

643
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,840
And actually, you know, I 
believe I've got, I've got where

644
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,400
I've got and, and I've, that's 
because people, you know, liked 

645
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,800
working with me and trusted me 
and wanted to work with me and 

646
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,440
then thought I got good people 
working with me because I've got

647
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,160
a really good there. 
I like having a laugh. 

648
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,040
Do you know what I mean? 
I like having a bit of a skirt, 

649
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,240
a bit of banter. 
I, I, I enjoy that. 

650
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,400
You've got to have that in 
these. 

651
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,840
We work in really high pressure 
jobs. 

652
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,400
The you're on a fine line where 
people are at a point of 

653
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:16,679
overstressed. 
And if you don't have something 

654
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,000
that pops that and just makes a 
laugh at the end of the day or 

655
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,320
cuts through a really difficult,
stressful meeting, cuts through 

656
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,960
it and calms everyone down, then
the stress is going to pop all 

657
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,719
over the place. 
And I think so. 

658
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,480
I think for me, integrity be 
you, your heart, because people 

659
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,800
warm to people who they think 
they know. 

660
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,040
They don't warm to people they 
don't do things for people they 

661
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,199
don't know. 
They do things for people who 

662
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:41,639
they love. 
I mean, my team often said to 

663
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:43,719
me, we didn't do this for other 
people, we did it for you. 

664
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,560
We didn't get up at 5:00 in the 
morning. 

665
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,800
We did it for you because they 
liked working with me. 

666
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,320
But I think secondly as well, 
having that moment of levity and

667
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,280
humour when, when people are 
working at really high levels of

668
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,960
stress tolerance is really, 
really important to know when to

669
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,240
have a joke to lighten the mood.
I think at all level, we're 

670
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,120
working at really levels of 
stress and people are very tired

671
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,240
as well. 
So the ability for people to 

672
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,560
just, it's a very fine line 
between the man then coping to 

673
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,000
being on that other line. 
And you constantly happen to 

674
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,240
manage that. 
And, and I think that's where 

675
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,240
humour, integrity and honesty is
really, really important, to be 

676
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:25,160
honest, to make sure your team 
are OK. 

677
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,480
Thank you. 
I mean, I mean, I was just, I 

678
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,400
think about when you said you 
spent three weeks in a hotel in 

679
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,040
Crewe trying to solve this 
problem. 

680
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,600
And I was like, there's no 
getting away from anything 

681
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,840
there. 
Like maybe not necessarily 

682
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,880
thinking about that, but other 
other projects or situations 

683
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,960
you've been in what, what has 
been that galvanising thing that

684
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,320
gets the team to get want to get
stuff done and go the ex. 

685
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,640
I think it all comes to going 
the extra mile, right? 

686
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,720
If you're if you feel invested 
in a project and listen to and 

687
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,960
and any thoughts around that. 
It's, it's normally there'll, 

688
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,160
there'll be some kind of major 
decision point or gateway or, or

689
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,240
something critical on that 
project which you all have to 

690
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:12,640
work to, you know, together to 
achieve it. 

691
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,120
And then there might be a 
sequence of who needs to do what

692
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,000
when and then somebody needs to 
review it. 

693
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,640
So it's really that leadership 
of all those people delivering 

694
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,880
the bits and how they come 
together. 

695
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,360
And you know, we're all here 
because we want to do a good 

696
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,480
job. 
So it does come back to, as 

697
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,720
everyone's been saying around 
the culture, creating that 

698
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,040
ability for everyone to work in 
a respectful environment. 

699
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,360
If something's not working, to 
have that, you know, ability to 

700
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,240
feel empowered to speak up and 
say, no, I think we need to do 

701
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,920
this or we're going to have to 
move that milestone. 

702
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,800
Sometimes people want to just 
slavishly deliver to a date and 

703
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,680
it's not a good idea. 
So it's about having that space,

704
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,960
open safe space to to raise to 
raise those. 

705
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,720
And I do think that culture is 
often set by the from the top 

706
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:01,840
and the leader and kind of 
creating that empowering, you 

707
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,160
know, open door environment. 
So some of the best ones I've 

708
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,320
people I work with, they they've
been very available to any 

709
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,800
member of staff. 
There's no hierarchical thing 

710
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,040
going on, and that's really 
worked well. 

711
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,120
So it's really, really good 
piece of advice, Glenn, anything

712
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,360
you'd like to add I. 
Agree with everything I'm 

713
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,880
Marine, Noreen had just said. 
Yeah, again, it's I really enjoy

714
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,160
building a culture. 
We've, we've on three new staff 

715
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,880
at Live Lab in the past few 
months and it's been an 

716
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,680
enjoyable process sort of 
setting that culture, 

717
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,640
communicating our values. 
And then I think, yeah, that 

718
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,720
that flat hierarchical 
hierarchical structure is is 

719
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:48,000
effective in in my view. 
So what I'd like to ask is, is 

720
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,960
for any tips or advice for 
people who aren't feeling 

721
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,040
motivated in their team or for 
leaders or managers who have 

722
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,760
detected maybe they've inherited
A-Team or maybe the team has had

723
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,320
a big set back to the project 
and you need to pick yourself up

724
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,800
and carry on and kind of re 
engage with it. 

725
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,240
Has has anyone got any any bits 
of advice that you you wish 

726
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:11,640
you'd know when you were 
starting out or that you just 

727
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,120
like to pass on to to us? 
I mean, I'll go on that. 

728
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,600
I, I tend to look inside myself 
now. 

729
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,080
I didn't do it very much when I 
was younger because I'd probably

730
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,800
be a bit defensive, but try to 
kind of investigate what it is 

731
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,400
or maybe even try and have a 
coaching conversation with a 

732
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,960
colleague if if they'll be 
wanting to talk to me. 

733
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,440
But understand what it is I 
enjoy about work. 

734
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,800
And it might not be that 
project, but just in general as 

735
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,240
a person, what what motivates me
as an individual. 

736
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:43,920
So again, not work, but just as 
a person outside of work and try

737
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,800
to understand if I get that from
my job and then be very kind of 

738
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,920
just be very strict with myself.
And if I'm not getting that from

739
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,760
my job or the culture is not 
good, have a look for another 

740
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,720
opportunity. 
Sometimes it does come down to 

741
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:57,520
that if it's really making you 
unhappy. 

742
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,560
So that's quite often. 
It's a good place to start and 

743
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,400
look within yourself before you 
look to what's wrong with the 

744
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,800
project. 
The bit of advice I will give, 

745
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,440
if I'm totally honest, is every 
opportunity that gets put in 

746
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,560
front of you is an opportunity 
to learn about yourself and what

747
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,440
you want to do and what you 
don't want to do, what you like,

748
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,280
what you don't want to like. 
And I'd say to my kids, just 

749
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,880
keep moving forward, put one 
step in front of the other and 

750
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,040
you'll find out what you want to
be. 

751
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,280
No one knows what they want to 
be. 

752
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,400
No one knows what type of 
projects that they want to work 

753
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,560
on until they've tried all 
different projects. 

754
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,280
So having a bit of a span is 
good. 

755
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,120
And then to take what you're 
working on and go, you know 

756
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,400
what, it might not be exactly 
what we want to work on. 

757
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,680
What can I get out of it? 
And I think it's lovely when 

758
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,040
there's projects with papers for
greater good. 

759
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,480
So that's if everyone could work
on one of them every day of the 

760
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,240
week, we'd be all made-up. 
Sometimes we have to acknowledge

761
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,040
that some be a little bit 
selfish. 

762
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,280
So what am I going to get out of
this for my career? 

763
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,080
There's nothing wrong with that 
like that. 

764
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,200
You know, if you're going to be 
working 18 hour days, why 

765
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640
shouldn't you get something out 
of that for your career? 

766
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,560
That doesn't mean the bigger 
rate of good doesn't matter. 

767
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,160
But where that doesn't exist, or
even where it does exist, it's 

768
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,400
OK to say where does this take 
me next in my career? 

769
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,440
And to sometimes when there 
isn't a purpose that you. 

770
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,520
Can get behind in terms of the 
project you're delivering. 

771
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,360
Create a purpose for your career
that that project teaches you 

772
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,760
something or or provide you with
a skill that you didn't have. 

773
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,000
Seek out them things in the 
project. 

774
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,720
Learn stuff. 
Learn equally what you may be 

775
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:31,040
not so good at as much as you 
are good at. 

776
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,640
For me, I think use it to the 
point of learning about yourself

777
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,760
and what you want to do and 
where you want to go with your 

778
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,080
career and use it as a stepping 
stone for your career even if it

779
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,080
hasn't got a bigger purpose. 
And that in itself will get get 

780
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,920
you motivated and out of bed and
driven and look for that within 

781
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,760
your other. 
And it's supposed broader. 

782
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,600
Look for that in the team. 
Look for that bigger picture 

783
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,440
that Glenn was mentioning. 
Try and see the bigger picture, 

784
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,440
not just not just for the 
company or whatever it is that 

785
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,960
you're working on, but for 
yourself and your career and 

786
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,240
your team. 
I think, I think for me, that's 

787
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:04,600
it. 
Just try and find all the 

788
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,840
meaning in it than just what the
outcome of that particular 

789
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,800
project is, I think is really 
important because there's 

790
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,680
meaning in everything. 
You've just got to find it, 

791
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:19,480
really. 
Thank you that chances I I I 

792
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,680
tried to put together some tips 
for people in the feature that 

793
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,560
we had in the summer issue about
finding meaning, but that was 

794
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:26,880
it. 
Yeah. 

795
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,960
What what do you, what can you 
get from it as an individual? 

796
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,200
If you're not particularly 
connecting to the project or as 

797
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,080
a project manager leader, how do
you give people that sense of 

798
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,360
individual buy in to the 
project? 

799
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,760
So as going going you were 
saying before you kind of set 

800
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,560
out like this is your role on a 
project and this is how you're 

801
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,840
helping helping it happen. 
So I think that's that's really 

802
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,160
key. 
Was there anything else then you

803
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,280
wanted to add before we kind of 
wrap wrap up? 

804
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,520
I agree with the previous points
about on an individual level. 

805
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:03,400
I think on a a lead leadership 
and management level, it comes 

806
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,560
down to how how well you 
communicate and get to know each

807
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,000
member of your team. 
It's happening in the past 

808
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,120
multiple times where a staff, a 
member of the team might not be 

809
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,440
as motivated or just be 
disinterested. 

810
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,880
And that's why I think it's 
important to build those 

811
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,360
relationships early. 
Understand what makes them take,

812
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,800
what their experiences, what 
their strengths are, and perhaps

813
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,280
where their weaknesses are. 
And then make sure you give them

814
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,080
tasks and problems to solve that
line up perfectly with their 

815
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,240
experience and interests. 
And you know, don't be afraid to

816
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:39,240
give ownership of stuff to to 
members of your team and say, 

817
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:40,280
you know, here's the problem to 
solve. 

818
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,640
It lines up in your experience. 
And I feel like that can be very

819
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,120
motivating for a team, for a 
team member. 

820
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,680
And it's again, just building 
those relationships. 

821
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:56,000
I just, I want to work with all 
of you now you're all hired. 

822
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,000
Thank you. 
What project have you got? 

823
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,960
I've got project. 
Project is my project. 

824
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,600
I think a nice way to wrap up 
actually would be is there one 

825
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,880
thing you're taking away from 
this discussion? 

826
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,360
Is there one thing that this has
made you think about or go back 

827
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,960
to your work? 
When When we finish recording in

828
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,680
a minute, Glenn. 
Yeah, I think it's, it just 

829
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,480
demonstrates how important 
purposes, I think when you're in

830
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,200
the, in the, in the depths of a 
big important project and you 

831
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,120
know, you're up against paid 
deadlines like we've been here. 

832
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,160
I think purpose can give you and
the team stamina if you're all 

833
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,480
working towards a shared goal. 
And it's, it feels like it's 

834
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:46,040
getting closer and closer. 
Like when we were building the 

835
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,560
the Live Lab over Christmas last
year, we were, you know, we had 

836
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,600
a launch event in February where
we had sort of government 

837
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,600
ministers coming down. 
We had, you know, artists 

838
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,320
performing and we had like a few
weeks to get everything fitted 

839
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,200
out and finished. 
And there was very, you know, a 

840
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,320
lot of late nights and Domino's 
deliveries into the lab, but 

841
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,280
like 11:00 while we were cabling
speakers up and stuff. 

842
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,800
But, you know, for me, the whole
reason that delivered and went 

843
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,840
well was because everyone had 
that purpose and it gave us the 

844
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,720
energy to keep pushing through 
and, you know, made the made the

845
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,040
launch event a success. 
So yeah. 

846
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,640
That's, that's I'm sorry, I 
forgot to ask all of you, what 

847
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,560
are the benefits that having a 
sense of motivation and purpose?

848
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,560
But I mean, it's kind of 
self-explanatory or just going 

849
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,600
what you just said about going 
the extra mile, keeping people 

850
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,120
engaged and getting it done and 
feeling that sense of 

851
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,760
achievement and reward once 
you've done it, even though 

852
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,680
you're kind of knackered and 
maybe put on a stone after 

853
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:50,400
eating loads of pizza and but it
makes it worth it and enjoyable.

854
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,160
No, no, I mean any kind of final
thoughts. 

855
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,520
Is this made you prompted any 
kind of bigger thoughts for you?

856
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,880
Is anything struck you about the
conversation we've had or 

857
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,840
anything that you'd like 
listeners to go away with if 

858
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,920
there was just one thing for 
them to think about? 

859
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,400
But I think it's, it's been 
great listening to all the 

860
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,640
different points of view and it 
just kind of reinforces, it's 

861
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,880
always really important on busy 
projects to take a moment to 

862
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,920
pause, stop and reflect on them.
Just on the connective efforts 

863
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,080
been put in and things that have
been achieved and and to kind of

864
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,400
stop and thank everybody for 
contributions really because I 

865
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,880
think we can just get so busy 
delivering sometimes some of 

866
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,040
those kind of more personal 
touches are not not always there

867
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,640
and they're very important. 
That's that's yeah, really 

868
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,080
valuable piece of advice. 
Just taking that time to stop I 

869
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,480
think about what you've achieved
and to reflect on it is really 

870
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,840
important. 
Anne Marie, anything that you'd 

871
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:53,840
like to finish with? 
I agree with Glenn about the 

872
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,680
purpose thing. 
I think clearly shows the 

873
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,360
purpose matters. 
I think I think purpose also 

874
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,480
comes from a team. 
What I've heard a lot on this 

875
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,760
conversation is about people and
the people give you purpose. 

876
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,800
So that's helpful when you've 
got a big legacy to leave. 

877
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,040
And then late night or equally 
if you've got a project that 

878
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,320
you're not that bothered about 
and it's not really giving you 

879
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,360
that sense of purpose, you can 
find purpose in the people that 

880
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,720
you work with. 
And I think that matters. 

881
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:21,480
And the final thing I'd like to 
say is I don't think project 

882
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,880
management as a career gets 
enough St cred and enough, you 

883
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,360
know, I genuinely think people 
think which some of us are just 

884
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,120
adamant people. 
And I, I can tell around this 

885
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,200
room and I'm really passionate 
for what we do and I will 

886
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,720
champion it all the way to the 
hill because it brings together 

887
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:42,760
people from all walks of life 
who want to get stuff delivered 

888
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,960
and deliver outcomes. 
And whether that's for companies

889
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,440
or for the wider world, which 
had benefits like some of us are

890
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,720
working on or, or and other 
people are working on, we are 

891
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,240
superstars. 
We work long nights, we work 

892
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:55,480
damn hard, we put up with 
pressure and we put up with 

893
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,680
challenge and we're always 
rocking up. 

894
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:01,080
And I think the world of work 
would not and the world of the 

895
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,280
world wouldn't be in as good a 
place as it is if there wasn't 

896
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,080
for for people who are prepared 
to leap out of bed to just hit a

897
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,240
deadline sometimes. 
Which I think is what I think 

898
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,560
makes project managers and 
whatever type of person you are,

899
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,840
programme manager, project 
manager, whatever, wherever you 

900
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,280
fall in the career of project 
management, we are a great bunch

901
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,240
of people to have on your team 
to get stuff done personally. 

902
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,360
So that's what I would say. 
Don't underestimate me. 

903
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,880
That is such a perfect way to 
end this podcast, and I haven't 

904
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,600
paid you to say that that was. 
Just the project manager might 

905
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,120
have done, but yeah. 
Thanks again to Anne Marie Glenn

906
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,920
and Noamine for joining us and 
to you for listening to the OPM 

907
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:44,920
podcast. 
Just to mention, you can find 

908
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,640
out more about finding purpose 
in your work in the Summer 2025 

909
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,160
issue Project Journal. 
And don't forget to look out for

910
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,920
more episodes or to rate and 
reviews. 

911
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,440
Wherever you get your podcasts, 
we'd welcome you to get in touch

912
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,720
with your comments, feedback and
suggestions by emailing us at 

913
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:04,400
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
And Spotify users can also send 

914
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,680
us feedback directly within the 
Spotify app. 

915
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,480
This podcast has been brought to
you by APM, the chartered body 

916
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,040
for the project profession. 
For more information on APM, 

917
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,680
visit apm.org.uk.