Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
in this podcast. I'm speaking to Anne Marie
Purcell, C-Suite Advisor and Transformational Change and
Delivery and transport, Namim Latif, Technical Director of
Digital Solutions at WSP, and Glenn Kelly, Programme Manager
at Costar Live Lab, about a subject we've probably all
chewed over at some point or another that is finding purpose
and meaning in your work. It's something we picked up on
in the Summer 2025 issue of Project Journal and one we've
wanted to explore further. When I interviewed Karina Singh,
Director and Head of Government Project Delivery Profession at
NYSTA for Projects Begin to View in the same issue, she told me
that that sense of purpose that you're doing something not just
for the bottom line, but also for the bigger impact that you
can have. That's where you get your
motivation. So listen on for an exploration
of what it is about work and projects that get some project
professionals to leap out of bed in the morning.
Is it feeling part of a project that leaves the world a better
place? Is it about a sense of
achievement or fulfilment? Is it working with people?
Or is it the challenge of getting stuck into really knotty
problems and finding a way around them?
And if you do derive a strong sense of purpose, what benefits
does that bring to your own work and to your team?
We also hope to pass on some food for thought that can help
you reflect on your own sense of motivation and if you're lacking
a connection to the bigger picture, how you might attain
it. So I'd like to welcome everyone.
Perhaps we could spend a couple of minutes each of you just
introducing yourself, explain a bit about your job role and
responsibilities and maybe a bit about the projects you've worked
on recently or you're working on right now.
So sure, we begin. Let's begin with Namin.
Hi, Namin. Hi there.
Yes, so I may, as you mentioned, I'm working for WSP, it's a
global engineering firm and I'm a technical director of digital
solutions. So what does that mean?
I've got a team of digital consultants and we help projects
with programme management solutions, digitising anything
in their PMO. Personally, my background, I've
been working in major infrastructure projects for 25
years. So a lot in transport, mining,
energy, but all sorts of kind of governmental LED projects
mostly. I'm also interested in data and
AI. So outside of work, I'm in the
project data analytics task force.
So quite passionate about how we harness the power of data and AI
for good really. Actually, I'm going to sneak in
a question here, which is what? What got you into project
management and what do you enjoy about it in general?
So I fell into project management by mistake really.
My undergraduate degree was psychology, which is obviously,
well, it probably is quite related to project management
nowadays, but I didn't see the link back then.
So I didn't know what to do for a job.
I got a temporary job in Network Rail doing something called
possession planning. But really it was manipulating
Excel spreadsheets to make some nice visual outputs of where
what was happening on the railway.
And I got talking to the lead of the team who said, have you
considered becoming a project planner?
And I was like, no, what's a project planner?
So then I got into the world of planning engineering and it got
very technical quite quickly and I quite enjoyed it and was very
different from psychology. And I think I welcomed the
challenge. And then in doing that, I got
more into the programme management office, coordinating
major works. And then it was really just
around a project management career ladder, really.
OK, thank you. But what are you working on
right now? At the moment I'm working with
National Grid on their great grid upgrade programme.
So that's basically around decarbonizing the energy network
as a goal to do that within the next five years.
And it's connecting the wind power from Scotland through
subsea cables and then new infrastructure on land and
upgrading infrastructure, so pylons, substations, cabling.
But yeah, it's very exciting to be part of that.
That is a very big picture project for the country, so
we'll come back to that later. Thank you for that, Glenn.
Tell us a bit about you and the projects you're working where
you are right now. Hi, my name is Glenn Kelly.
I'm Programme Manager for Costar Live Lab based at the University
of York. So Costar is one of five
national R&D labs for the creative industries.
We were built following a £75 million investment from the Arts
and Humanities Research Council. It's the, it's the UK
government's largest ever investment into the creative
industries. And yeah, so I'm programme
manager here. We essentially our remit is to,
well, First off, we had to build the place, which was the sort of
first six months to a year of my role here.
And now we are running sort of business support programmes and
R&D funding calls to help businesses who would not usually
have access to the type of kit that's behind me to come and use
it, develop new IP, commercialise the IP and then go
on and bring bring income into the sector and create jobs off
the back of that. And which famous people have
come through the doors? So we're based at Production
Park, which is a little hidden gem in South Kirkby, just just
South of Pontefract. So, yeah, previous to this, I
was working in a rundown industrial chemical site in
Teesside. And now I'm I'm the rehearsal
space for the likes of The Rolling Stones and Beyoncé and
Jay-Z. So it's a bit of a bit of a
culture shock and a nice change. But yeah, it's it's, it's not a
really, really fun place to work.
OK. Thank you.
And previous to this, you were shortlist I think for one of the
APM awards for your network on the Net 0 initiative, is that
right? Yes, yeah.
So my background is in sort of the energy industry, nonprofit
and universities. So the project that I delivered
for Teesside is the Net 0 industry Innovation Centre,
which we completed in summer of 2023, which was a sort of really
high profile publicly funded innovation centre for net zero
technologies. We've got creating sustainable
energy solutions, So yeah, delivered that 2023, went into a
role in the energy industry off the back of that and then joined
Costar last year. And what was it about project
management that drew you to it? Similar to Namin, it wasn't, it
wasn't a planned route for me coming out of university.
I did study business management at university, went into the
more account management side of things initially in the early
stage of my career. And then in one role, the
project manager left and we basically got told that there
wouldn't be hiring a replacement.
And it was up to me to sort of take on that role.
And I think it's, it's, it's a common theme throughout project
and programme management. It's often something that people
fall into and think, actually, I really enjoy this or actually
I'm quite good at this. And then go on to sort of work
up that, up that ladder. And so that that was how I
landed in the space. OK.
Thanks, Glenn and Marie. Again, you're familiar to APM
Projects readers, probably because of your work on B
Network, but tell us a bit about your where you are right now and
and maybe a bit about B Network and how you got into project
management. Yeah.
So I'm Anne Marie Purcell and I most recently was Chief
Transformation Officer at Transport for Greater Manchester
and I was accountable for delivering the B network, which
is essentially the transport network in Manchester.
It's the first integrated transport network outside of
London. And my specific role was to make
sure that we delivered the nationalisation or the
franchising of the bus services. Manchester was the first in the
UK to take bus legislation from 2017 and take back control into
public control, the bus network from a deregulated market, which
had been like since 1986. And I was the first to lead on
that in the UK. And as a result, I'm now working
as an advisor to all the other combined.
Well, not all of the combined authorities.
I'm working quite a number of the combined authorities and
Wales as a country who are going down the same path.
So I'm currently working with South Yorkshire, W Midlands and
Wales, providing some advice into other local authorities and
combined authorities and some into the DfT departments of
transport. And I'm also providing more
strategic change advice to broader change because I'm not
just a transport specialist, I'm actually a transformational
change specialist who happens to have delivered a big transport
pro programme. How I got into the industry was
completely by accident. I, I started off with a fashion
degree and I dropped out because I couldn't afford it, ran a
nightclub, ran a bank, then ended up in Revenue and Customs
in VAT and then ended up on EVAC as a PMO support, which is where
you can put your VAT online. You never used to be able to do
that. There's always paper format.
Long time ago. I'm a bit old.
And, and then I ended up as a PMO support and then went
contracting, left Revenue and Customs because there was no
options of promotion revenue. I was with revenue customers
before when they were separated and when they merged and I went
contracting and I stayed like that for 12 years and slowly
built myself up to lead in large scale programmes.
And then the job before my C-Suite role was as an employee
for Unilever and I LED a global transformation team for the
comms service. So I LED their transformation of
their Wan, their wireless LAN, their team's voice with the team
in Bangalore and Brazil until the B Network came calling and
that's when I left to go and join that programme and ended up
as Chief Transformation Officer at TFGM.
OK, what a patchwork of projects you'll bring to the podcast.
That's that's really and you're all accidental project managers
as well that you start software. How interesting.
So what struck me about the project management profession
when I first came to it was I was actually really nicely
surprised at how motivated people seem to be and energise
that. If you think about the projects
you've worked on, the most successful ones, would you agree
that that that kind of peers and colleagues are motivated in
their work? Or is it just me as an outsider
noticing that? If you if you think about it, do
you feel as though you do work in teens and with people who do
generally tend to be motivated by the projects or that type of
work? Namin, what do you think?
Yeah, I think so. I think the type of people if
we're accidentally or not drawn to project management, we're
normally naturally quite organised and driven people.
And you know, project management is about delivering outcomes to
a particular set of time and and other kind of thresholds.
So that naturally pushes us to want to be driving it forward
all the time. And in doing that, you know, can
be working on pressurised environments.
So also under good leadership, we get a good culture.
And so we get to know our colleagues and peers so that we
can work with one another under pressure.
And I think it's that culture and that common purpose and also
our just our natural ability to be organised that's kind of
helped to drive these projects forward.
Certainly when I've interviewed some people they've spoken about
that there is is pressurised work often, but they get a buzz
from it. They're drawn to that kind of
having deadline driven work and that's part of the pleasure.
But I, I think I'm going to leap in and just ask you personally
what, what gives you a sense of purpose and meaning in your
work? What do you really love about
it? I think I've I've appreciated it
even more recently. You know, we've got the climate
emergency and what can we do? So if there's an opportunity to
blend that with what you're doing in your day job, it really
does give you that sense of purpose that right my project,
it's going to help to decarbonize the energy network
or I'm thinking about carbon impacts and how I can mitigate
those as part of my project management process if it's a if
it's a different sort of project.
So that definitely does chime with me.
And then a lot of the projects, aside from when they've been for
carbon reduction, some of the transport projects, it's really
about then giving back to society.
So we're creating a facility that enriches people's lives,
gives them something. So that for me has been a
massive driver and a lot of the projects I've been involved
with. Is that key to you, for the
roles you take that? Is that what draws you to them?
The idea of connecting to the bigger picture, doing something
for the greater good. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've because
I fell into transport, but then I enjoyed it.
And then I see the impact of when you deliver a new rail
service or you know what, whatever type of transport
service it is, you see the benefit to the public When the
other day I was, it's been very hot recently.
So I was travelling on the Crossrail and despite it being
late and all of that sort of thing, it's a fantastic service.
It really has improved people's lives, connecting different
parts of of the city together and kind of helping with
regeneration. So it does feel very good to to
keep being parts of those projects.
And maybe that's why I put myself forward for some of those
sorts of projects as well. Yeah, people have spoken to me
about that, actually, the physical legacy of a project.
Sometimes that you, it is a boss, it is getting on the
Elizabeth line or it's a building that you've been
involved with And the kind of almost showing the grandchildren
like this is what I did, This is what I helped put together.
That seems to be a nice thing to have.
Thank you. Namin Glenn, you work or have
you worked with a sort of particularly motivated bunch of
project professionals and where do you get your own sense of
purpose, the meaning in your work?
Yeah, I think, I think purpose is an individual thing and I can
only speak for myself, but I tend to feel more driven and
motivated when one, I'm enjoying the day-to-day work I'm doing.
It's interesting, it's varied, but also that I feel like I'm
competent and I'm providing value in my role.
So I think if you, if you've got those two boxes ticked off, you
know, I've been in roles where I felt capable and confident, but
maybe not necessarily enjoyed it.
And that's when the purpose started to drop in in the role.
I mean, currently, you know, there's a real tangible benefit
to the businesses we work with building sort of cutting edge
infrastructure and I'm enjoying the day-to-day variety.
So you know that that that's the reason behind for me.
My purpose comes from. Have you been good at
discovering what makes you tick and what what's enjoyable
through work? Is it?
And then you kind of follow your nose towards that.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
And I think you only get that from trying out new things and
going into new industries and finding out different roles,
which, which I'm a big proponent of.
Don't settle until you find something that you do enjoy
getting up and, you know, doing every day because it's really
empty. It's a big part of your life and
it's important that you enjoy what you do.
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Anne Marie, tell us, have you worked with a big a bunch of
motivated, highly motivated people?
And I'm saying a bit tongue in cheek because not every day is
like that and not everyone is motivated.
Or you might have a bad manager one time.
He doesn't, it doesn't help. But generally, if you look back
over your career so far, do you feel as though there has been
that kind of cohesive sense of purpose for some of the projects
you've worked on? Yeah.
I mean, obviously I've worked as part of teams and I've created
and LED teams and I think I'm going to be really honest, I
think being a project manager is in your DNAII don't actually, I
think you can train people, but to have that motivation to work
the the the times of day that we work.
I mean, I in March this year was the first time I had a break
without an e-mail or a meeting long night.
I think for the B Network, I was doing 1819 hour days on meetings
at 11:00 PM at night with my deputy overnight long for three
years. And I think it's in your, you've
got to have that in your DNA that you want to work like that
and you want pressure and you like deadlines.
You want to be the person who's up at 1:00 AM worrying about
what tomorrow's going to look like and how you're going to
deliver that problem. Because you know, if it's not in
your DNA, you're not going to be like that.
And that's not a criticism anyone.
There's not a criticism of some project managers I've met who
don't have that. But to be a really successful
project and programme manager, it's part of your DNA.
If I'm totally honest, it's part of your personality.
In the same way that I wouldn't suit being an accountant because
that would, that just doesn't suit me.
I think you agree. I think it's part of your DNA.
And I've and I generally build teams of people.
I've got groups of people who've worked with for years.
I mean, it was remarkable about the fact that somebody guy,
John, who I constantly take everywhere I go, I've known
since 2017 and he's worked on three amazing big pieces of work
with me. And there's others and I think
you find people they navigate towards each other when they're
good at successful, they want to be part of a successful team.
So people want to come and join me when I'm leading big teams.
And equally, I want to be part of teams with people who I know
are going to, who I trust, who I know we're going to get, pull it
all out when you need them to. Not going to give up.
They're not going to go over. They're not going to leave a
5:00 PM at night when they know there's a deadline just because
it's 5:00 PM. And it's a hard job.
And I think it requires people who've got that in tenacity,
grit, determination. And it's not for the faint
hearted. It also involves difficult
conflicts influencing stakeholders who don't want to
be influenced. You've got to have a knack of
smiling when you don't want to smile.
You've got to have a knack of women people slamming your fist
on the table when that's the most appropriate time and
building relationships, breaking relationships to rebuild them
sometimes. And it needs all of them skills
and it's not for the fantastic. It genuinely isn't.
If you want to get to really high levels in projects and
programme management, it is that.
And I've aged a lot and and I know I have because particularly
in the last three years and, and, but I love it.
I love every minute of it. And the reason why I chose
probably the B network and my purpose now is I am, I would
love to say that every project I've worked on, I, it was like
had meaning and it really mattered to me.
Well, that's just nonsense. I'm 46.
I mean, I had to go and do jobs that, OK, I'll deliver that
project. I'm not saying it wasn't
important and I didn't put all my all into it, but I can't say
it left a legacy or anything like that.
We just don't get to pick and choose like that.
We've got to take the salary. But I suppose I'm at a point in
my career now where I can, I absolutely can and I do choose
where I go and what I do. And fortunately I'm in that
position where I can afford to do that.
It's not the same for every project manager, but I genuinely
think if you've got grit and purpose and you want to deliver,
you'll deliver. You'll deliver it anyway, even
if it doesn't give you a purpose.
And that will lead on to something that delivers a
purpose. So for me, papers, delivering
papers, teams, good teams, is where I get out or get out a
minute really. I was just about to ask you, So
what gives you a sense of purpose that's working with high
performing teams to people? I, I, people really matter.
I mean, I love my teams. I build teams that I love
working with. And you know what, I sent a
message to someone quite important when I left TFGM and I
said in individually, every member of my team was high
performing, but collectively they were superhuman because
when one was down, the others were all you know, we delivered
over Christmas in 202526. We were in a port, a cabin for
six weeks. We were I'll, we had some people
off, we had some people in bed, we had floods, we had fog, we
had snow. And one day I looked around,
there was me and one other lad and everyone had gone down, but
he was there. And then everyone swung back
again after two weeks and we didn't want to let anyone down.
And that sense of a team driving towards something behind you or
in front of you if you're not leading it and being part of
that is just when it's works well.
It's like they are your family. They are who you go to bed
thinking about. They're who you wake up with
because you're actually with them more than you're with at
home to be honest. And I, I love all of them.
And I've got memories, individual members about all of
them as well as team memories. So yeah, the B Net was bloody
brilliant. I'm made-up with it.
I'm chuffed. A bit of driving.
I'm going to Manchester this afternoon.
I'll see it. I love it, but actually it's
them people who I've got for the rest of my life as well as that
and, and, and I love them. I love catching up with them and
seeing how they're getting on and making sure they're getting
where they need to get to. Yes, it's people for me.
OK, right. Well, I think you're very
motivated by people's side of things.
It seems that it's so nice to hear people talk about work in
such a positive way. No, Maine.
And Glenn, do you looking back over projects you've worked on
or working on right now, are there any particular times where
you've thought, Joe, I'm going to, well, not maybe not leaping
out of bed in the morning, but thinking I'm really looking
forward to today. Is there a part of the project
process that you love? Is that has there been a
particular project that has really spoken to your individual
sense of motivational purpose that that brings to mind?
I mean, I mean, it's cliche, but I think in project and programme
management in general, it's no two days the same.
And it's the variety that really makes me want to come in every
day. I mean, but in this role coming
up just over a year and then, you know, since, since I
arrived, I've been involved in everything from sort of
commercial negotiations to contract and legal issues to
construction recruitment and then event management and, you
know, day-to-day operations. And it, it really is that that
variety that keeps me coming back from odds.
It's and again, like, like Anne Marie was saying, when it's,
when you're really busy and you're working all hours under
the sun, I feel like I really enjoy the sense of camaraderie
that you develop with the team that you're working with.
And also that sort of mix of chaos and structure.
I find it weirdly satisfying. So that's that's me.
As an outsider, it sounds as though it's, you know, like
think partly thinking on your feet as well and that problem
solving and like, let's, let's solve, let's solve this
collaboratively. So it's a lot about the people
side of projects, which is really nice to hear.
Namin, has there been anything that has jumped out at you over
your career that you that has really meant something to you or
has given you a real sense of purpose or just a buzz and
thought I would you know what I love my job.
I. Mean.
I think it is that that infectious enthusiasm and, you
know, having great leaders or you might be the leader yourself
and being able to set that, that kind of culture in the team that
OK, it's difficult, but everyone's going to pull
together and make it work. So I had an example earlier in
my career where we were working on the West Coast route
modernization. It was going badly wrong.
There's all kinds of problems with, you know, accidents on the
railway. And we had this, we were kind of
given a window to sort it out and everyone got together.
I think we, we kind of all started working in crew and we
were coming from all over the country and we just kind of
almost locked ourselves in, in a hotel for about three weeks.
And we came up with a very well coordinated plan across various
different people of how we're going to bring it back on time.
And, you know, we had the ministerial eyes on us.
So it was pressurised, but there was a real enthusiasm to get it
done. There was no blame.
It was like, let's bring the best minds together to solve
this. And, and it was very empowering.
And we actually did manage to deliver what we planned in those
three weeks. So, you know, that was amazing.
And it, it did kind of bring home, OK, there can be
challenges and adversities, but with the right people, the right
attitude, the right leadership, we can, we can achieve a lot of
things. How wonderful.
I'm going to. I just want to pick you up, pick
up on that because I'm now thinking of listeners who
perhaps aren't very experienced project managers or team
leaders. Is there any advice you could
pass on about managers, project managers, or leaders who've been
particularly good at giving a sense of purpose or motivation
to a team? Are they kind of do's and
don'ts? If you've noticed either as a
manager or leader yourself or having worked under people that
you've thought have done it particularly well, any any tips
you could pass on about creating that sense of purpose or
motivation that you did want to pass on?
Once somebody want in my team said to me, well, two people
have said that to me over over time and probably a few other
people have said it as well, is that I know when to be above
managing the people above me. But I know when to drop down and
help the team and roll my sleeves up.
And I think I've done every job in in projects and PMO so well,
I say every job, pretty much every job.
And therefore I know how tough them up.
They all are. I've gone from the bottom to the
top. I haven't kind of just jumped at
the top. And for me, I think being
prepared to roll your sleeves up if you're a leader and being
amongst it all is really, really key.
You know, I, I have my high vis on my beanie for six weeks.
I was there at 6:00 AM in the freezing cold.
I've done it. I've been a wastewater treatment
sites which were particularly unpleasant.
I've done, I've been there. I've, you know, be prepared to
roll your sleeve up and dig deep in with your team.
Don't just float above them. You know, I think that is a
motivation factor. And a few people have said to
me, when you drop down, we we drop, we lift up.
Do you know what I mean? So when you drop into the
details, sometimes, not all the time, that's not particularly
helpful as you're a leader, you need to empower people.
But when they need you and you drop down, they said, and I was
in the thick of it, I lifted them up.
And I think, I think, I think that's really important.
But equally knowing when to drop down and when not to, when to
empower and let people get on with the job and come to you
when they've got a problem. But I think being prepared to
roll your sleeves up and being amongst people when it, when I
was going to swear, then when it isn't a fan is really empowering
for people seeing leaders. And if you want to be somebody
who wants to lead a team of project management, you need to
remember that you've got to do all the jobs.
You've got to understand it so that you can help advise and
support people and to get people motivated.
Being prepared to roll your sleeves up is for me a
fundamental part of being a leader and try and motivating
people and showing them that you're willing to do.
I have this saying, if the most important thing for me to do
today is make the cup of tea to get this project delivered, I
might be the most senior person in the room.
But if that's the most important thing is to buy people a cup of
tea and that will trigger a wave of delivery, then I'll do it.
I'm not pressured. I don't care making the cup of
tea or cleaning the toilet or whatever it is and whether I've
got a chief transformation officer job title or I've not.
If the priority for me is to clean a bus, which I've done,
then that's what I'll do. Because if that needs to be done
today to get that bus going, then that's what I'll do.
And I think as a leader, if you can show that ability to scale
up and down that ladder and be at the right place at the right
time, you'll motivate people. OK, that's great.
And that's probably something that only comes through
experience, so and. A little.
And being confident to say, you know, I really have to do this
seeing really very important piece of work.
But I'm going to go and buy a cup of tea because that'll take
two minutes and that'll lift people's spirits.
So I guess it's trusting your own judgement as well, like on
the human side of things. Glenn, I can see you nodding
your head there. What?
What advice would you pass on or have there been leaders that
have written that you've thought, Joe, I'm going to steal
what they do because that works and I'm going to you put that in
my repertoire of project management tools.
I think you touched on it actually, Emma, in the editors
letter of this issue of Projects where you mentioned about
zooming out and seeing the bigger picture.
Thank you. So people actually read that.
I have. That's my, that's my day.
Thank you. Round point for Glenny and I
think Glenn. No, I'm a, I'm a fan of the
project issue and it's nothing to do with the fact that I'm in
this this quarter's issue. Every.
Every time they come out. But yeah, I think that that's an
important point for me about a project and a programme
manager's job is often to make the implicit explicit.
And that sometimes can mean, you know, consistently zooming out,
reminding people of what we're doing, why we're doing it, and
equally, you know, making sure it's absolutely abundantly clear
that this is the overarching goal.
This is what we're delivering. And this is what you as an
individual are responsible for as part of working towards that
sort of North Star. And just making sure, you know,
you communicate clearly and often expectations and making
sure everyone's, you know, we're on the same boat, working on the
same goal. And I find that's really helpful
in terms of leadership and giving purpose to to your team.
Thanks, Glenn. I mean, what have you picked up?
What What kind of valuable bits of advice would you like to pass
on that you've picked up over your career?
Echoing everything that's been said already about, you know,
why we hear the vision what everyone's going to do something
around Also rewarding, rewarding people for when when there's
good work as a team, as individuals.
And then as we know, things don't go to plan on projects.
So it's really around capturing that early as a as a learning
point and not a stick. So, you know, I've seen some
culture project cultures where it's been a bit tough than that,
you know, maybe behind on, on the schedule or the cost, but
really it will be, can we turn that into an opportunity?
What, what are the ideas that the team has collectively to do
something different? And I think that's, that's the
leadership quality to kind of not blame the team and to kind
of keep, keep it upbeat and positive.
So some of the best programmes I've worked on and I've worked
on ones which are not been going brilliantly, like Crossrail, for
example, it was the leadership and it was that ability to
transform and say, this is where we're at, There's some things
out of our control. What are we going to do next?
And then also just going again back to the personal bit.
So just making sure that you know everyone on the team, it's
not possible sometimes on very big teams of making sure that
the structure is there, that everyone gets, you know, the
right amount of time with whoever their leader is on the
programme. Yeah, and I you just making me
think of an interview I did with it was a really senior person at
NASA who was responsible for the James Webb Space Telescope.
And I thought before I interviewed him, he's going to
be a very serious man. I mean, he's in control of this,
this, you know, project programme, which is worth
billions of dollars and, you know, a space programme.
And he, he said the, the most important thing for him was
having a sense of humour and having a laugh with the team.
And it, and it makes you think, doesn't it like if you want a
team to have that psychological safety or no blame culture, that
you've got to have a bit of that somewhere.
I think I'm really interested in the mean that you've worked in
teams. So that actually does happen.
Like it's easier said than done it.
How do you make that happen on the team?
That idea of people being able to speak up or speak the truth
and and go beyond the blame game, is there anything that
that works? Is it about role modelling that
behaviour for example? It is, it is.
I'm far too bloody honest. If I'm totally honest.
I'm like the person who tells people what they don't want to
ear and you know, and and that's up as well as sometimes down
more often up than it is down, if I'm totally honest.
And I think I think there's a, you know, being just be having a
level of integrity and in true to yourself.
I think people like I am a terrible swearer.
I mean, I'm absolutely atrocious and you know, I don't hide from
who I am. I'm a a blonde Scouse woman
who's kicking backside to try and get stuff delivered.
And I am unashamedly that person.
Do you know what I mean? And I've got to the age where
that matters to me, that I have integrity.
When people speak to me, they know what I'm saying is
truthful. And if I say I'm going to do
something, I'm going to do it because I'm just who I am.
And over the years I've thought, you know, if I spoke a bit
posture, if I toned the swearing down, if I wasn't as bombastic
and forceful and said what I think, it probably would have
done my career better. But people see through that.
And you can only keep that act up for so long.
And actually, you know, I believe I've got, I've got where
I've got and, and I've, that's because people, you know, liked
working with me and trusted me and wanted to work with me and
then thought I got good people working with me because I've got
a really good there. I like having a laugh.
Do you know what I mean? I like having a bit of a skirt,
a bit of banter. I, I, I enjoy that.
You've got to have that in these.
We work in really high pressure jobs.
The you're on a fine line where people are at a point of
overstressed. And if you don't have something
that pops that and just makes a laugh at the end of the day or
cuts through a really difficult, stressful meeting, cuts through
it and calms everyone down, then the stress is going to pop all
over the place. And I think so.
I think for me, integrity be you, your heart, because people
warm to people who they think they know.
They don't warm to people they don't do things for people they
don't know. They do things for people who
they love. I mean, my team often said to
me, we didn't do this for other people, we did it for you.
We didn't get up at 5:00 in the morning.
We did it for you because they liked working with me.
But I think secondly as well, having that moment of levity and
humour when, when people are working at really high levels of
stress tolerance is really, really important to know when to
have a joke to lighten the mood. I think at all level, we're
working at really levels of stress and people are very tired
as well. So the ability for people to
just, it's a very fine line between the man then coping to
being on that other line. And you constantly happen to
manage that. And, and I think that's where
humour, integrity and honesty is really, really important, to be
honest, to make sure your team are OK.
Thank you. I mean, I mean, I was just, I
think about when you said you spent three weeks in a hotel in
Crewe trying to solve this problem.
And I was like, there's no getting away from anything
there. Like maybe not necessarily
thinking about that, but other other projects or situations
you've been in what, what has been that galvanising thing that
gets the team to get want to get stuff done and go the ex.
I think it all comes to going the extra mile, right?
If you're if you feel invested in a project and listen to and
and any thoughts around that. It's, it's normally there'll,
there'll be some kind of major decision point or gateway or, or
something critical on that project which you all have to
work to, you know, together to achieve it.
And then there might be a sequence of who needs to do what
when and then somebody needs to review it.
So it's really that leadership of all those people delivering
the bits and how they come together.
And you know, we're all here because we want to do a good
job. So it does come back to, as
everyone's been saying around the culture, creating that
ability for everyone to work in a respectful environment.
If something's not working, to have that, you know, ability to
feel empowered to speak up and say, no, I think we need to do
this or we're going to have to move that milestone.
Sometimes people want to just slavishly deliver to a date and
it's not a good idea. So it's about having that space,
open safe space to to raise to raise those.
And I do think that culture is often set by the from the top
and the leader and kind of creating that empowering, you
know, open door environment. So some of the best ones I've
people I work with, they they've been very available to any
member of staff. There's no hierarchical thing
going on, and that's really worked well.
So it's really, really good piece of advice, Glenn, anything
you'd like to add I. Agree with everything I'm
Marine, Noreen had just said. Yeah, again, it's I really enjoy
building a culture. We've, we've on three new staff
at Live Lab in the past few months and it's been an
enjoyable process sort of setting that culture,
communicating our values. And then I think, yeah, that
that flat hierarchical hierarchical structure is is
effective in in my view. So what I'd like to ask is, is
for any tips or advice for people who aren't feeling
motivated in their team or for leaders or managers who have
detected maybe they've inherited A-Team or maybe the team has had
a big set back to the project and you need to pick yourself up
and carry on and kind of re engage with it.
Has has anyone got any any bits of advice that you you wish
you'd know when you were starting out or that you just
like to pass on to to us? I mean, I'll go on that.
I, I tend to look inside myself now.
I didn't do it very much when I was younger because I'd probably
be a bit defensive, but try to kind of investigate what it is
or maybe even try and have a coaching conversation with a
colleague if if they'll be wanting to talk to me.
But understand what it is I enjoy about work.
And it might not be that project, but just in general as
a person, what what motivates me as an individual.
So again, not work, but just as a person outside of work and try
to understand if I get that from my job and then be very kind of
just be very strict with myself. And if I'm not getting that from
my job or the culture is not good, have a look for another
opportunity. Sometimes it does come down to
that if it's really making you unhappy.
So that's quite often. It's a good place to start and
look within yourself before you look to what's wrong with the
project. The bit of advice I will give,
if I'm totally honest, is every opportunity that gets put in
front of you is an opportunity to learn about yourself and what
you want to do and what you don't want to do, what you like,
what you don't want to like. And I'd say to my kids, just
keep moving forward, put one step in front of the other and
you'll find out what you want to be.
No one knows what they want to be.
No one knows what type of projects that they want to work
on until they've tried all different projects.
So having a bit of a span is good.
And then to take what you're working on and go, you know
what, it might not be exactly what we want to work on.
What can I get out of it? And I think it's lovely when
there's projects with papers for greater good.
So that's if everyone could work on one of them every day of the
week, we'd be all made-up. Sometimes we have to acknowledge
that some be a little bit selfish.
So what am I going to get out of this for my career?
There's nothing wrong with that like that.
You know, if you're going to be working 18 hour days, why
shouldn't you get something out of that for your career?
That doesn't mean the bigger rate of good doesn't matter.
But where that doesn't exist, or even where it does exist, it's
OK to say where does this take me next in my career?
And to sometimes when there isn't a purpose that you.
Can get behind in terms of the project you're delivering.
Create a purpose for your career that that project teaches you
something or or provide you with a skill that you didn't have.
Seek out them things in the project.
Learn stuff. Learn equally what you may be
not so good at as much as you are good at.
For me, I think use it to the point of learning about yourself
and what you want to do and where you want to go with your
career and use it as a stepping stone for your career even if it
hasn't got a bigger purpose. And that in itself will get get
you motivated and out of bed and driven and look for that within
your other. And it's supposed broader.
Look for that in the team. Look for that bigger picture
that Glenn was mentioning. Try and see the bigger picture,
not just not just for the company or whatever it is that
you're working on, but for yourself and your career and
your team. I think, I think for me, that's
it. Just try and find all the
meaning in it than just what the outcome of that particular
project is, I think is really important because there's
meaning in everything. You've just got to find it,
really. Thank you that chances I I I
tried to put together some tips for people in the feature that
we had in the summer issue about finding meaning, but that was
it. Yeah.
What what do you, what can you get from it as an individual?
If you're not particularly connecting to the project or as
a project manager leader, how do you give people that sense of
individual buy in to the project?
So as going going you were saying before you kind of set
out like this is your role on a project and this is how you're
helping helping it happen. So I think that's that's really
key. Was there anything else then you
wanted to add before we kind of wrap wrap up?
I agree with the previous points about on an individual level.
I think on a a lead leadership and management level, it comes
down to how how well you communicate and get to know each
member of your team. It's happening in the past
multiple times where a staff, a member of the team might not be
as motivated or just be disinterested.
And that's why I think it's important to build those
relationships early. Understand what makes them take,
what their experiences, what their strengths are, and perhaps
where their weaknesses are. And then make sure you give them
tasks and problems to solve that line up perfectly with their
experience and interests. And you know, don't be afraid to
give ownership of stuff to to members of your team and say,
you know, here's the problem to solve.
It lines up in your experience. And I feel like that can be very
motivating for a team, for a team member.
And it's again, just building those relationships.
I just, I want to work with all of you now you're all hired.
Thank you. What project have you got?
I've got project. Project is my project.
I think a nice way to wrap up actually would be is there one
thing you're taking away from this discussion?
Is there one thing that this has made you think about or go back
to your work? When When we finish recording in
a minute, Glenn. Yeah, I think it's, it just
demonstrates how important purposes, I think when you're in
the, in the, in the depths of a big important project and you
know, you're up against paid deadlines like we've been here.
I think purpose can give you and the team stamina if you're all
working towards a shared goal. And it's, it feels like it's
getting closer and closer. Like when we were building the
the Live Lab over Christmas last year, we were, you know, we had
a launch event in February where we had sort of government
ministers coming down. We had, you know, artists
performing and we had like a few weeks to get everything fitted
out and finished. And there was very, you know, a
lot of late nights and Domino's deliveries into the lab, but
like 11:00 while we were cabling speakers up and stuff.
But, you know, for me, the whole reason that delivered and went
well was because everyone had that purpose and it gave us the
energy to keep pushing through and, you know, made the made the
launch event a success. So yeah.
That's, that's I'm sorry, I forgot to ask all of you, what
are the benefits that having a sense of motivation and purpose?
But I mean, it's kind of self-explanatory or just going
what you just said about going the extra mile, keeping people
engaged and getting it done and feeling that sense of
achievement and reward once you've done it, even though
you're kind of knackered and maybe put on a stone after
eating loads of pizza and but it makes it worth it and enjoyable.
No, no, I mean any kind of final thoughts.
Is this made you prompted any kind of bigger thoughts for you?
Is anything struck you about the conversation we've had or
anything that you'd like listeners to go away with if
there was just one thing for them to think about?
But I think it's, it's been great listening to all the
different points of view and it just kind of reinforces, it's
always really important on busy projects to take a moment to
pause, stop and reflect on them. Just on the connective efforts
been put in and things that have been achieved and and to kind of
stop and thank everybody for contributions really because I
think we can just get so busy delivering sometimes some of
those kind of more personal touches are not not always there
and they're very important. That's that's yeah, really
valuable piece of advice. Just taking that time to stop I
think about what you've achieved and to reflect on it is really
important. Anne Marie, anything that you'd
like to finish with? I agree with Glenn about the
purpose thing. I think clearly shows the
purpose matters. I think I think purpose also
comes from a team. What I've heard a lot on this
conversation is about people and the people give you purpose.
So that's helpful when you've got a big legacy to leave.
And then late night or equally if you've got a project that
you're not that bothered about and it's not really giving you
that sense of purpose, you can find purpose in the people that
you work with. And I think that matters.
And the final thing I'd like to say is I don't think project
management as a career gets enough St cred and enough, you
know, I genuinely think people think which some of us are just
adamant people. And I, I can tell around this
room and I'm really passionate for what we do and I will
champion it all the way to the hill because it brings together
people from all walks of life who want to get stuff delivered
and deliver outcomes. And whether that's for companies
or for the wider world, which had benefits like some of us are
working on or, or and other people are working on, we are
superstars. We work long nights, we work
damn hard, we put up with pressure and we put up with
challenge and we're always rocking up.
And I think the world of work would not and the world of the
world wouldn't be in as good a place as it is if there wasn't
for for people who are prepared to leap out of bed to just hit a
deadline sometimes. Which I think is what I think
makes project managers and whatever type of person you are,
programme manager, project manager, whatever, wherever you
fall in the career of project management, we are a great bunch
of people to have on your team to get stuff done personally.
So that's what I would say. Don't underestimate me.
That is such a perfect way to end this podcast, and I haven't
paid you to say that that was. Just the project manager might
have done, but yeah. Thanks again to Anne Marie Glenn
and Noamine for joining us and to you for listening to the OPM
podcast. Just to mention, you can find
out more about finding purpose in your work in the Summer 2025
issue Project Journal. And don't forget to look out for
more episodes or to rate and reviews.
Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch
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