1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,720 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,840 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,200 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,560 In this podcast, I'm speaking to Donna Sinnick, Chief Delivery 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,560 Officer at Babcock International, a defence, 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,560 aerospace and security company, about her rise to the top of the 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,520 profession and the valuable career and project management 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,200 lessons she's learnt along the way. 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,480 Donna shares her advice on everything from creating 10 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:40,800 simplicity in programmes and projects, being a woman in a 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,040 male dominated environment and moving on from impostor 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,800 syndrome. Listen on to hear her story. 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,680 Welcome, Donna. Thanks so much for your time 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,360 today and big congratulations. New job role, Chief Delivery 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,600 Officer at Babcock International. 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,680 Congratulations. Thank you very, very much. 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,960 But why don't we begin with you telling us a bit about what you 18 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,040 do, so your kind of role and responsibilities and what kinds 19 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,960 of projects and programmes you work on? 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,320 So Babcock so I cover global Babcock. 21 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:20,760 So we've got footprint in in many countries across across the 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,040 world, quite a strong footprint within the defence of the UK. 23 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:29,080 So my responsibilities when I first joined Babcock three years 24 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,560 ago, it was to set up a global project management organisation. 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,760 We already had around 2000 project programme management 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,480 professionals, but kind of no one pulling it all together and 27 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,320 defining the single way for Babcock to move forwards. 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,200 Gosh, that's that's a lot of people to be working without a 29 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,600 kind of leader. Yeah, absolutely. 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,760 Absolutely, Yeah, so, so, so they've all got individual 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,920 business leaders. Obviously, as we, as we know, 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,120 within project and programme management, they tend to go up 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,840 through their business lines. But really looking for the 34 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,560 synergies and the frameworks and how we think about competencies 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,560 and how we work across the organisation, kind of that free 36 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,720 flow of people and movement. Once you get anywhere near that 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,600 number of people, you get an awful lot of mobility and 38 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,240 people, people want to be able to get across the breadth of of 39 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,800 an organisation. So we just weren't capitalising 40 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,760 on it as much. So that was kind of what I came 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,080 in to start and do and obviously either done something really 42 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,640 well or really badly because it's expanded and I've now got 43 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,160 quite a few other functions as well. 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,680 So quite a quite a number of other functional groups 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,960 including kind of procurement, supply chain, IT which is quite 46 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,920 an interesting one, particularly from a project handling 47 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:46,400 perspective. Quality, which is always 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,880 fascinating to kind of get into the real sort of products, the 49 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,480 way that we run the business and also facilities management, 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,200 which is again something completely different. 51 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,160 But for me, I think the grounding in project management 52 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,200 is what absolutely sets a foundation for everything. 53 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,760 So as long as you've got that, that ability to understand and 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,200 question and pull apart what you're being told and what you 55 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,600 understand and kind of ask hopefully intelligent questions, 56 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,400 sometimes probably not so intelligent after the obvious 57 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,600 questions, I think you can pretty much turn your hand to 58 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,840 most things. Are you able to tell us a bit 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,400 about the kinds of projects or programmes you're working on at 60 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,360 the moment? So full range of projects and 61 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,120 programmes. So I spend a lot of time. 62 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,680 So I sponsor one of our major programmes at a dockyard down on 63 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,240 the South Coast. So it's spent get some 64 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,720 fascinating insights. I'm able to really sponsor them 65 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,360 because the project and programme management profession 66 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,160 and the customer are getting much more sort of intelligent 67 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,400 and understanding what a sponsor's really there for. 68 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,320 So that's fascinating because I get to work with the Royal Navy, 69 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,880 with some ship staff, with obviously the Babcock personnel 70 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,880 and a number of other professional industry 71 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,280 organisations. So that's more around the 72 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,880 programme sponsorship side of a major critical national 73 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:20,040 endeavour and then move into. So sometimes on ships, sometimes 74 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,040 on aircraft, sometimes in the the civil space. 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,720 But yeah, it's, it's, but you could probably think of 76 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,600 something and somewhere in the portfolio we'd cover it. 77 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,240 So Met Police training or the London Fire Brigade or some, you 78 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,200 know, there's a whole range of, of projects and programmes and 79 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,720 business areas that we, that we run and, and I'm in a fantastic 80 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,160 place to be able to kind of get involved in all of them. 81 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,000 What attracted you to Babcock when you first joined and what 82 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,920 have you enjoyed doing look forward to when you get up in 83 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,560 the morning? So I grew up in a military 84 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,240 family. Both of my parents were in were 85 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,880 in the services. So it's kind of the way that I 86 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,240 grew up in that way. I grew up moving around the 87 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,440 world with them and sometimes not moving with them when I went 88 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,400 off to off to boarding school for a little while just to 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,040 towards the latter part of my school years. 90 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,040 So I've spent my entire career, I'm merely working in the 91 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,480 defence business. So I spent 24 years working on 92 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,840 military aircraft before I made the decision to come over to 93 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:29,440 Babcock. But again, it's it's kind of all 94 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,960 in the same, along the same vein. 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,240 What is it about that world that you enjoy and that you've wanted 96 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,120 to kind of forge your career in? I would describe it a little bit 97 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,800 like project management. I think it's almost literally in 98 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,080 my DNA. So what Why do you know? 99 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,960 I grew up, I knew no different. I grew up moving about. 100 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,640 I grew up in a world where everyone was in service of, of 101 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,240 the, of the country and my kind of same as project management. 102 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,400 It's kind of in your DNA. It's just something that you 103 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,800 that I found that just really falls naturally and I feel 104 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,560 really privileged to be able to work in a defence organisation. 105 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,440 So, yeah, so, so I'm not sure I ever chose to do it. 106 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,440 I think I just kind of continued on from I guess a lot of people 107 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,280 do, don't they, they, you know, they follow in their, in the 108 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,240 footsteps of their, of their parents and their family and, 109 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,600 and mine is, is very different. So I never joined the services 110 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,560 but I do work, you know, within, within the UK defence. 111 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,760 How did you get into project management? 112 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:34,160 Did you always wanted to be want to become a project manager? 113 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,680 I hear very few people say they that's their dream. 114 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,720 That's kind of what I mean when I say I think it's part of your 115 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,720 DNA. So I joined, I joined a company 116 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,840 and do you know the moment I remember being asked to go into 117 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:49,840 project management. I don't think project management 118 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:54,640 was particularly big or sexy at all at the time. 119 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,360 So it was probably it was 25 years plus ago. 120 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,000 If we if we start there. And I just remember having some 121 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,560 challenges between the customer, the contract and the, and the 122 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,080 production, the operations team and I just drew out a fairly 123 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,640 basic flow of work that we needed to do and just trying to 124 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,400 get pull everyone together and say this is the flow of the work 125 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:19,680 we need to do. Does everyone agree? 126 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,800 And suddenly I was the bee's knees of project management. 127 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,200 So it's that's kind of that's the first moment that I remember 128 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,760 someone saying to me to almost do you want to move into project 129 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:31,520 management? We don't. 130 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,720 We've kind of got a few people who are project managers, but it 131 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,800 is an area that we really want to grow. 132 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,480 And so I obviously jumped to the chance because the ability to 133 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,280 have a high level view of lots and lots of different complex 134 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,680 projects, programmes, people. So I've always worked in a, in a 135 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:59,000 big engineering organisations. So the ability to kind of stay 136 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,200 at surface level but understand what it is and how you pull it 137 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,440 all together just always really interested me. 138 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,000 And I think it's just just kind of growing from there. 139 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,720 I wanted to ask you about the challenges that you face and the 140 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,800 work that you do and that you obviously enjoy getting to grips 141 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,800 with, and inevitably one of those things must be complexity. 142 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,120 I think the whole point of project management is to 143 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,280 overcome the complexity. I'm a massive believer in 144 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,600 simplification, so if I can't describe something in the 145 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,120 simplest possible way for whoever I'm talking to to 146 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,320 understand, it probably means I haven't quite unpicked it enough 147 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,440 to be able to describe it. So I probably go the absolute 148 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,240 opposite way to to other people where I look for the simplest 149 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,880 possible version and the simplest way of understanding 150 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,720 something. Because I think you can really 151 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,680 get under the skin of complex problems and stitch things 152 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:58,880 together. Not not trying to do any 153 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:04,400 discredit to complex situations, but just trying to say what is 154 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,600 the simplest way that we can think about this? 155 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,280 Because the simpler we can make things, the more people 156 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,440 understand and therefore the more you can get behind the 157 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,600 cause and the more you can get people kind of pointing in the 158 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,840 right direction. Which personally I think is the 159 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,320 biggest challenge of project management is how do you get, 160 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,240 you know, huge projects and programmes where we can be 161 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,720 working on projects and programmes with, you know, 162 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,320 thousands of people. How do you get them to 163 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,920 understand in the simplest possible way? 164 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,240 Sometimes it is by describing things in the simplest possible 165 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,080 way. So, so that's how I have always 166 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,880 addressed things and tried to think about complex issues and 167 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:50,080 complex programmes whilst respecting and really trying to 168 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,760 unpick the specialisms. Because there's no doubt that 169 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,600 there's huge complexities, but it doesn't mean that everyone in 170 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,360 in the project or programme or the organisation has to 171 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,480 understand them in in a level of detail. 172 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,960 So how do you pull it apart enough that people understand 173 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,960 point in the right direction, but you still allow space for 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,280 the specialist to really kind of drive their technical or their 175 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,920 commercial or whatever, whatever specialism it is to allow them 176 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,120 to drive forwards? Have you got any advice to 177 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,120 anyone who might be listening who thinks you know what? 178 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,120 I want to try and make the way I talk about projects to my team 179 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:31,560 simpler? What have you picked up along 180 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:36,360 the way? I think honesty and humility is 181 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,680 just really underrated. So to be able to say somewhat to 182 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:46,560 somebody, I really respect your detailed subject matter 183 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:51,840 knowledge, but actually that is your role and my role's 184 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,920 different. My role is to be able to stitch 185 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,920 and pull together an organisation or a project or 186 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,840 programme so that we enable you and actually the level of 187 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,840 conversation that we're having or the depth of the conversation 188 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,680 or the acronyms that you're using. 189 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,040 We, I live in a heavy acronym world and you can get to the end 190 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,640 of a presentation and think, if I were an outsider, I'm not sure 191 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,640 I would have understood any of that. 192 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,560 If we can just respect the position of each of the people 193 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,160 in the team, but have them respect kind of what your role 194 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,840 is, I think that's a massive learning point for for the 195 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,360 project. That would be what I would say 196 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,080 to all kind of project management professionals, 197 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,480 respect the SME's. Don't try and be the SME. 198 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,600 You don't have to be the engineer or the commercial 199 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,400 contract manager. You need all of those people, 200 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,120 but you actually need simplification. 201 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,360 You need to get under the skin event. 202 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,880 So being able to say, quite honestly, thank you, but we need 203 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,920 to raise this up a level because this is this is kind of your, 204 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,400 your responsibility rather than mine. 205 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,640 And I'm here to enable you. But that means I have to 206 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,160 understand it and I have to be able to get that message across 207 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,720 to everybody. Are there any other challenges 208 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,720 that you regularly face in your work that you think you've 209 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,000 learned a lot about how to deal with well that you could pass 210 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,320 some advice on? Maybe on the people's side of 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,480 things, perhaps. I love getting into an 212 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:23,160 organisation and finding those secret little ninjas that are in 213 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,800 the organisation that are almost buried. 214 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:33,160 And I think the ability to step back and recognise not everyone 215 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,320 has to go up a classical kind of hierarchical step by step route. 216 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,360 Sometimes there are people for whatever reason who are buried 217 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,560 in the organisation who are ready to be picked out and and 218 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,880 kind of elevated really quickly. And I, I did that in one of one 219 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,240 of the most complex programmes I've ever worked in and run. 220 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:59,960 It was an aerospace defence contract with multiple customers 221 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,960 right at the time where the 737 Max incidents were happening. 222 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,200 And obviously, you know, horrendous outcome. 223 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,760 So we were dealing with a couple of organisations who were 224 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,480 directly involved and directly related with that. 225 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,560 So you've got an organisation who are already quite concerned 226 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,400 and quite anxious and obviously dealing with things that none of 227 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,240 us would ever want to deal with. But I, I picked up that 228 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,880 programme when actually, and it's, it's one of my, I think 229 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,920 now pivotal moments in my career. 230 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,280 So my boss at the time had said to me, I'd really like you to 231 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,880 run this programme. And at the time I was running a 232 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,120 portfolio, I was absolutely loving my job had multiple kind 233 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,120 of Tier 1 aerospace customers and I kind of, and everyone 234 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,400 who'd been in this programme had had not finished it very well 235 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,640 and it kind of there, they'd had a really, really tough time. 236 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,360 So I said, thank you for the opportunity, but I'm good, I'm 237 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,120 going to stick here. So he asked me twice and I said 238 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,840 no both times. And now I remember so clearly. 239 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,480 He sat down in my office. He said, I've asked you twice 240 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,520 and now I'm telling you. And I thought, OK, right then 241 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:21,400 that's what that's what's coming next. 242 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:27,280 But it's it's probably one of my biggest lessons is sometimes 243 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,960 opportunities come even if you don't see it as an opportunity. 244 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,320 So I didn't want that role. I was in a fantastic world. 245 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,880 I was loving my job. I was loving the team that I was 246 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,640 working with all the way through the customer, the supply chain. 247 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,440 But I was this moment of no, we need you to go and do this. 248 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,560 That I thought at that moment was pretty catastrophic, 249 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,800 actually became one of my proudest moments and one of my 250 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,480 pivotal moments. And to be honest, I wouldn't be 251 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,640 at Babcock now if it wasn't for that because the level of 252 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:04,240 confidence that it gave me, having said no and then and then 253 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,400 moving into a role and rebuilding basically a 254 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,360 completely fractured team, none of whom wanted to be in that 255 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,560 programme. Really, really tough 256 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,560 relationships internally and with the customer and just being 257 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,720 able to kind of find those superstars that are hidden in in 258 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,560 that organisation, being able to pull them out, restructure and 259 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,720 then drive the programme forwards with that kind of let's 260 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,280 simplify it. Let's all be able to talk in 261 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,280 this in a similar way. Let's be able to point in the 262 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,240 same direction because fundamentally, what do we all 263 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,120 want? We want this programme to end. 264 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,480 So let's drive it to the end. And it was just from a moment of 265 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,120 saying thank you, but I really don't want that to, OK, that's 266 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,600 the direction we're travelling in and, and grabbing hold of it 267 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,680 and saying if this is the direction we're going, that's 268 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,200 what we're going to do. Do you think that was the lesson 269 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,480 in going beyond your comfort zone so someone knew you well 270 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,960 enough to push you and say yes, you can do that? 271 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:08,800 100 percent, 100% and it all it was also a lesson in I think it 272 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,800 was a lesson in saying no initially, to be honest, because 273 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,680 I'm not sure at any point I had previously said thank you very 274 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,800 much, but I'm I that programme doesn't feel right for me. 275 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:19,000 I. Mean. 276 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,720 That's a brave thing to do. That's a brave thing to say to 277 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,160 your boss. No, I don't want you to do what 278 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,440 you. Do but so yes, exactly. 279 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,080 I think the point is you can say no, you don't have to take every 280 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,560 opportunity. But if it gets to a point where 281 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,320 the business needs you to take a role or to go in a direction, my 282 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,080 advice would be at that point, go for it because you never 283 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,120 know. All of the reasons I didn't want 284 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,000 to take that role. Actually, I now look back on and 285 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,960 think, wow, they were either confidence building or pivotal 286 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,560 moments in my career to the point where when, when that 287 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,160 programme did end, which which took three years for us to take 288 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,640 that programme over the line. The number of people who still 289 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,319 say today I really miss that programme, but what they miss is 290 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:15,960 the team spirit of it because we were just able to turn and 291 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,680 direct and really drive it all in the same way. 292 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,839 Yes, I get that. It must have been quite. 293 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,599 I mean, it must have been very daunting, but exciting as well. 294 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,880 So it was daunting, but it also also, I guess, I guess it was 295 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,640 quite flattering if I'm just really honest, because you go 296 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:35,680 right, OK, Someone has actually actively not not only asked me, 297 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,640 but now told me that this role that I'm going to be doing, so 298 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,480 they must have great confidence in my ability to do it. 299 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,080 So all of that kind of, I actually don't necessarily agree 300 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,680 with imposter syndrome, but all of that kind of concern in your 301 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,840 head, just you're able to switch off and say I wouldn't be doing 302 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,040 this role if this person, this organisation didn't believe I 303 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,080 could do it. I wanted to ask you about the 304 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,760 style of leadership you have as a programme leader. 305 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,160 Have you consciously cultivate the style of leadership, or have 306 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,720 you just found yourself leading in a natural way for you? 307 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,280 What? What? 308 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,560 What way would that be? I think probably more the latter 309 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,120 because do you think you have to be honest to yourself? 310 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,560 I remember quite early in my career, someone said you're not 311 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,560 hard enough, you're not direct enough, You're not, you know, 312 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,320 they would describe it as holding people to account. 313 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,320 I think what they meant when I look back, it's kind of shouty 314 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,920 and direct and everything that I'm not. 315 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:47,480 So, so I remember for about a month trying to be someone 316 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,960 really different to who I am. And I got to the end of the 317 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,760 month because it was really conscious. 318 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,200 Right. OK, I'll take the advice. 319 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,960 And I was, I was a project manager. 320 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,520 I was managing around about 50 engineers at the time. 321 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,080 I'll take the advice. I'll think about how I show up 322 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,840 every day, and I do remember being this kind of really 323 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:17,240 direct, really almost forceful, loud person for about for a 324 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,280 month, which was what I'd set myself to really test it. 325 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,440 I got to the end of that month and I just thought, even if this 326 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,280 is working, I am utterly miserable because it's not me. 327 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,040 And from that moment and it was quite an early career learning 328 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,880 for me and and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but for me 329 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,880 personally, it didn't, it didn't work. 330 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,480 So I've always found that just like if someone shouts at me, if 331 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:49,440 someone kind of directs me and tells me, tells me what to do 332 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,040 rather than kind of seeks opinion or I've no issue with 333 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,120 being direct. But there's a different way in 334 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,920 style. And I think certainly for 335 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,520 project management, your job is to get the best out of people. 336 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,520 And you don't tend to get the best out of people if, if you 337 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,240 are forceful direct, if you're always telling them what to do, 338 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,960 there's only a certain number of people who like that style. 339 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,440 So I've just, I think I've more naturally moved to what what's 340 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,240 core to me, but I have tested it along the way and found that 341 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,160 certainly other styles don't necessarily suit me. 342 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,440 We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the 343 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,760 project profession. When you become an APM member, 344 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,320 you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an 345 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,720 impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. 346 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,280 Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support 347 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,600 your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you 348 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,400 reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. 349 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,440 Because when projects succeed, society benefits. 350 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,480 I wanted to ask you what have been the biggest lessons around 351 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,440 the actual execution projects, so project management side of 352 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,080 things that you've learned as you've climbed up the ladder 353 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,800 that you wish you'd told a younger version of yourself? 354 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,280 So I think the first would be trust the data, build the data, 355 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,520 trust the data. So I know so through lots of 356 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,760 different psychometric profiles that I've had the pleasure of 357 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:28,960 doing over the years, I know that in certain situations I, I 358 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,440 can be pretty decisive, I can move very quickly, but in a, in 359 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,400 a really, really difficult situation, I tend to move 360 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,520 straight back to the centre and go into data. 361 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:45,080 So as long as you're measuring and monitoring and appropriately 362 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,040 and correctly it, it's, it's got no reason to lie, It's not lying 363 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,960 to you. So if something under the 364 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,800 surface is telling you that there is an issue, there's a 365 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,440 problem. You do need to dig into it. 366 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,960 So I'd say trust the data and secondly, don't put it off. 367 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,440 It is, it is not going to get any better by ignoring it or by 368 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,040 putting it off. And sometimes that comes into 369 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,720 the prioritisation. So we do an awful lot with 370 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,360 rocks, pebbles, sand. So we fill our time with sand, 371 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:18,240 which is kind of the day-to-day stuff that just has to be done. 372 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,120 But if you start with that, you've got no time left really 373 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:27,240 to drive the rocks. The big strategic changes that 374 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,000 you need to get into your programme, into your project, 375 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,520 into your business. What's your next ambition for 376 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,400 your career? Or do you have a dream job 377 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,680 you're willing to share with us? Do I have a dream job? 378 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:47,400 So I've maybe controversially, I've always just, I've never had 379 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,280 a career plan as it were like within two years I want to be 380 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,360 this, within five years I want to be that. 381 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,600 I think I've, I've always just believed if you work hard and 382 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,120 you're kind of true to the core of you and you've got great 383 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:09,680 sponsorship and allyship, then certainly what I've found is 384 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,440 that opportunities come up and they might not, they might not 385 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,920 appear to be opportunities. So I did 24 years at my last 386 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:24,040 organisation and was probably no doubt classified as a lifer, but 387 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,200 an opportunity came up to move and to move over to over to 388 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,560 Babcock. And I think it, it's, that was 389 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,480 less of a choice at that moment. It was just in that moment in 390 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,920 time, an opportunity came and kind of decide whether or not 391 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,840 that's the right, the right chance to take for you. 392 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,760 So picking up, I mean, person picking up IT and procurement 393 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,200 and supply chain and some of the other kind of aspects and 394 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,960 strings that I've now got within My Portfolio of delivery. 395 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,040 And would they have been on a career plan for me? 396 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:05,320 No, but what's happened is it it kind of stabilise and and get do 397 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,680 something really, really well and then more, more 398 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,200 opportunities come along. So I think being kind of 399 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,320 flexible and open to take them has been the way that I've kind 400 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,320 of gone through my career as opposed to a quite a set 401 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,600 direction of travel. So do I have the next stream 402 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,120 job? I generally like to think that 403 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:31,320 my, my job at the moment, whatever it is, if I do it 404 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,480 exceptionally well, if I really drive into it, then the next 405 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,040 dream job will come up. So it's, it's quite a difficult 406 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,760 one to answer without a really direct statement, but that 407 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,840 that's how I found, that's how I found my career kind of 408 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,920 progress. Is there anything else you 409 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,600 wanted to mention before we finish? 410 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,840 Any bits of advice you pass on to maybe people just starting 411 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,320 out in their careers in project management or anything else you 412 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,360 wanted to raise? I think people starting out in 413 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:04,480 their careers in project management, I think my biggest 414 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,080 piece of advice would be maybe a little cautious here actually in 415 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,640 my advice, don't be so fixated on moving quickly. 416 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,560 Because actually what I don't think people want to do is move 417 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,840 so quickly that they don't learn the lessons along the way. 418 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,560 Because you'll get to a certain level in your career where you 419 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,120 can't backfill that knowledge and that and that level of 420 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:31,960 experience. So certainly the way project 421 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,560 controls are moving and the and the measures that we put in 422 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,000 place around and around project controls really get under the 423 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,040 skin of that and understand it truly before you, before you 424 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,800 want to drive on and drive forwards. 425 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,400 It's great picking up bigger programmes, but that grounding 426 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,440 is so important. So that would probably be my 427 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,520 cautious but my advice. Listen, dykes. 428 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,920 So it's such a pleasure listening, chatting with you and 429 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,320 getting your advice and understanding a bit about how 430 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,040 you've got to where you, you have. 431 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,720 And you know, it's, it's really important when we get time with 432 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,880 people at your level as well to understand the kind of 433 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,680 challenges you face and how you've overcome them. 434 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,120 And also it's evident to me how much you enjoy your work. 435 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:25,720 So that's always lovely to hear. It just leads me to say big, 436 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,840 massive thank you for your time. It's been brilliant talking to 437 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,880 you. And you thank you very much for 438 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:41,560 your time. Thanks again to Donna for 439 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,600 joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. 440 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,560 I hope you'll be able to take something useful from our 441 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,760 conversation that will help you in your own career, whether it's 442 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,320 finding a way to ditch the jargon or feeling like you can 443 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,960 step into a room and own it anyway. 444 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,960 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and 445 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,880 review it Wherever you get your podcasts. 446 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,120 We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 447 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:10,360 suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 448 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,760 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body 449 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,360 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 450 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,000 visit apm.org.uk.