1 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,520 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,760 the project profession. My name is Emma Devitra and I'm 3 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,280 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,000 today. In this podcast I'm joined by 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,720 two leadership experts, Doctor Paul Chapman, Senior Fellow at 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,200 Saeed Business School at the University of Oxford, and Gordon 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,440 Mackay, Project Management Capability Lead at Sellafield, 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,920 who also provided subject specialist knowledge for a new 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,720 APM Learning module on Leadership of Self, which is 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,080 coming out soon. The module explores steps you 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,040 can take to become more self aware and outlines how this will 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,520 help you develop the ability to lead others. 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,520 I'm asking Gordon and Paul to delve deep into their experience 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,560 and research to pass on their advice on what it takes to be a 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,959 great project leader in 2025. I'm sure it hasn't escaped you 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,640 that leadership and project management is a hot topic. 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,080 Now more than ever, there's a realisation that leading 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,320 projects and programmes successfully requires people who 19 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:16,880 are collaborative, inclusive and empowering. 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,800 It sounds great on paper, but it can be a tall order to achieve 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,040 in real life. So to help you, let's hear from 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,400 Paul and Gordon about what they've learned from their many 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,480 years of experience. So welcome both. 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,600 Why has leadership becoming an even more important part of 25 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,800 project management? Because I think it has. 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,440 I think the people side of delivering projects and 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:45,280 programmes has become extremely critical and you know, a point 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,520 of much discussion. Why do you think that is Paul? 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,800 Well, I think, well, we can link it directly back to to the world 30 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,760 of projects and and I think let's start with remembering 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,680 Martin Barnes of blessed memory, former president of APM and also 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:08,360 the major Projects Association. And Martin wonderfully captured 33 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,480 project management is people getting stuff done. 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,320 And it's just such a nice, clear definition, and there's lots of 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,480 kinds of projects and there's lots of kinds of people, but it 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,400 really cuts the heart of the work. 37 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,880 And it helpfully contrasts with the slightly technocratic view. 38 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,840 Some, like project management is it's the knowledge set. 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:33,800 The knowledge set is really important. 40 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,480 There are better ways of getting projects done. 41 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,080 And I think Martin wonderfully made us connect back to its 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,000 people and where there's people and where there's people working 43 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,720 in not just ones and twos, but groups and teams. 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,880 And at organisational level, we need some sort of order and 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,640 structure. And I think that's one of the 46 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:59,600 roles that leadership plays. I think we also need to be 47 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:05,360 careful to tease out management. Good management is really 48 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,080 important. And then there's this slightly 49 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,240 ephemeral thing of leadership and, and hopefully we've got a 50 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,800 bit of time we can try and prod and poke it and work out what it 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,400 is. Well, let's start prodding now. 52 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,800 What what is the difference in your mind between what makes a 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,520 great project manager and what makes a great project leader? 54 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,760 Because there'll be project managers listening to this 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,640 thinking, what if I just carry on doing a good job, perhaps 56 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,280 that I'll automatically become a project leader. 57 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,080 But I know what has served you well in the past is not 58 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,560 necessarily what will serve you well in the future. 59 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,320 So if, if there are people in that position now, what is the 60 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,720 difference? I think, I think maybe to kick 61 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,240 off, I'd encourage everyone to reflect. 62 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,520 Yeah. What is this leadership thing? 63 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,520 And then there's a sort of you, you know it when you see it and 64 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,720 encourage everybody to think they, they were really good 65 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,920 managers and they were nice people and they were great 66 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,400 colleagues. And then somewhere in this, 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,040 there'll be some people who start to stand out and they 68 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,560 might be in positions of seniority. 69 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,160 So senior leaders. And sometimes it's like, no, no, 70 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,280 they're just people occupying a role and a chair and they're 71 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:28,920 doing their job well. But some of the leaders might be 72 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,960 actually amongst our colleagues, amongst our peers. 73 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,240 And I think one of the places that leadership has evolved in 74 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,880 recent times is recognising the leadership role of people in 75 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,960 relatively junior positions and maybe early career. 76 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,520 And that stands out in things like the changes in technology 77 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,640 that we're all experiencing. And we sort of feel a little bit 78 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,720 out of the depth. And the world has moved on 79 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,480 quicker than we have. And it's like, who do we go to 80 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,520 for help and support? And sometimes that's technical 81 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,880 stuff. Well, well, you do it like this. 82 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,600 But we also see in early career people that they're taking a 83 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,880 somewhat bigger role. It's not the things and the 84 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,600 stuff. We can get leadership coming up. 85 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,720 We can get leadership from peers as well as the more conventional 86 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,880 view of from seniors. So let's let's kind of again 87 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,080 spread our spread our net pretty wide in, in terms of how we 88 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,760 think it. But I think there's something 89 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,840 intuitive here. We tend to know it when we see 90 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:33,920 it. That's interesting point, 91 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,600 Gordon, what's your take on things? 92 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,440 Why? Why do you think leadership has 93 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,000 become an even more important part of project management? 94 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:50,120 And would you agree that leadership now can be spotted or 95 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,920 appreciated early on in your career rather than thinking you 96 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,040 have to climb the career ladder? And it's it's the number of 97 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,120 years you've got under your belt that is what makes you a leader? 98 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,840 How are things changed? As Paul was talking there, I was 99 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,800 came to mind a book I read many, many years ago by an author 100 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,240 called Trevanian called Shibumi, and it's a Japanese concept. 101 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,360 And Shibumi, they say, is somebody with authority, without 102 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,120 domination. The person that comes into the 103 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,480 room, they don't assert themself with that kind of traditional 104 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,800 stereotypical alpha male stuff. They quietly come in, but 105 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,840 somehow people listen. Another angle on this is how I 106 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,160 differentiate between leadership and management. 107 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,640 If I come into the room and I'd say to you, I'm your manager, 108 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,880 I'm invested with authority by the organisation, people 109 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,400 recognise and acknowledge that. But if I come into any context 110 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,240 and I say I am your leader, then there'll be quite a few people. 111 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,200 For me, the idea of leadership is something which is you, you 112 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,520 compliment somebody with that. It's it's something that's 113 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,280 offered rather than demanded. It's conferred the idea of 114 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,120 leadership that gives you the feel of where I see leadership 115 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,560 coming from. And a big driver for this is out 116 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,400 in the organisational environment of project delivery, 117 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,120 in particular reflected in the APM Body of Knowledge 7th and 118 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,160 8th edition, where we're moving from stakeholder management to 119 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,520 stakeholder engagement. And that in and of itself speaks 120 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,920 volumes to me that just as previously we would think of 121 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,680 Jack Sparrow engaging with the enemy stakeholder management and 122 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,320 doing that kind of thing, today we're in an environment where 123 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,480 very often the people that I need to deliver my project as a 124 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,760 project leader, I'm not even in my organisation. 125 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,680 I have no organisational authority over that person which 126 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,680 demands therefore these stakeholders. 127 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,840 I cannot, I can engage with them on one level, but I'm trying to 128 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,480 secure engagement from and between diverse stakeholders 129 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,240 within and without the organisation. 130 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,280 And in many organisations we now have many multidisciplinary 131 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,640 areas made even more complex by the the Internet of Things and 132 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,160 the level of intercontinent connectivity and 133 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,560 interdependence. So in in terms of leadership, 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,400 the function and form of leadership reflects the fact 135 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,440 that on the one hand, organisational structure, the 136 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,520 project delivery organisation is multidisciplinary, trans 137 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,320 organisational often. And in addition to that, the 138 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,840 delivery environment for projects today has gone through 139 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,559 a quantum change from those days when I had command over that 140 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,720 environment. I'm going to deliver in, I could 141 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,760 say who could do what when now with many stakeholders, I have 142 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,200 to negotiate, imagine HS2 just to get access to go and work on 143 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,960 that piece of land. And so, so the whole delivery 144 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,800 environment is much more complex. 145 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,400 Plus the fact that the level of interdependence means there are 146 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,240 so many different organisations contributing as I do my project 147 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,960 plan going forward and my critical path, the number of 148 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,400 interdependencies has escalated, you know, geometrically, you 149 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,200 know, hyperbolically. So therefore the function of me 150 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,280 in delivering that project, I cannot by definition manage. 151 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,080 I don't know anything about all the situations out there. 152 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,760 I need to deliver an agile, adept organisation, 153 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,960 transportation or team that is able to navigate complexity. 154 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,760 And that's at the heart. And that's the shift from 155 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,680 management, where it's somebody who's a subject matter expert 156 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:36,480 telling everybody what to do, to a situation where I'm trying to 157 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,520 draw upon and bring together many diverse experts in a 158 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,480 collaborative agile team that can navigate that complexity in 159 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,600 an efficient and effective way. I want to try and get to the 160 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,640 heart of what successful project leadership means right now and 161 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,520 what does it take to be a highly effective leader. 162 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,760 And it is about this idea of kind of kind of earning 163 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,160 followers. I think it's like you said, it's 164 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,760 not just about coming in and saying I am your leader, which 165 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,480 does make me laugh, OK. I can't imagine it would be 166 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,360 tempting to be able to do that in some instances. 167 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,200 But also the volatility, the complexity stuff is changing all 168 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,040 the time. And when I've spoken to people 169 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,880 about all the tech developments right now and AII mean it is 170 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,080 accelerating at the fastest ever. 171 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,360 There's no constant anymore. There's always something to kind 172 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,280 of be able to get your head round. 173 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,760 So to go back to this, what, what does it take to be a 174 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,520 leader, a good leader, a great leader Right now, I'll draw a 175 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:55,000 little on some of some of the things that, that I do at, at 176 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Oxford. So one of my jobs is so I, I run 177 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,920 the UK government's major project, Leeds for Academy. 178 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,960 And yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant role. 179 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,640 And I've done that since 2012, which turns out was quite a long 180 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,400 time ago. And, and when trying to teach 181 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,960 leadership, because that's what we do, we've been doing it this 182 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,560 week with a group you, you've kind of got to have a frame of 183 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,320 reference. And so have spent quite a bit of 184 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:24,840 time just trying to boil it down. 185 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,640 And I'm happy to, to go here's, here's something that that's a 186 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,880 work in progress. But you know, we've we've been 187 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,360 working on it for a while and it's seems to be getting there. 188 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,920 We we draw upon some of the work, yeah, the work of others. 189 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,800 And, and, and one bit of work I think is really useful for 190 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,440 anybody thinking about leadership is is a book written 191 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,240 by a couple of colleagues, David Pendleton and John Cowell and 192 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,480 their Co authority, Adrian Furnham called No More Heroes. 193 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,440 And buried in there they get to the tasks of leadership. 194 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,280 And so they've really kind of pared this back. 195 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,240 What is it leaders do? And, and, and they suggest 196 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,040 there's five things. And it's like, really it you've 197 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,600 sounded super complex and and you've brought it down to five 198 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,360 things go you. And yeah, it's always more 199 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,880 complicated, however useful. And they say what leaders do is 200 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,480 they inspire. And that's maybe some of the 201 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,560 points we're touching on here. It's beyond management. 202 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,360 And the inspire bit is creating a sense of psychological 203 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,600 purposefulness. Why is the thing that we are 204 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,920 doing, because it's a collective important and how is it 205 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,720 important to you? So I think a job of a leader is 206 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,840 to go, here's an important thing and this is how it connects to 207 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,000 you. And so it makes a makes a big 208 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,360 issue, quite a personal issue. Great. 209 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,480 We're all on board. There's lots of us. 210 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,520 There's many things to do Next job focus out of the many things 211 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,120 we could be doing, we are going to do this and there's a little 212 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:10,880 bit of getting agreements to that. 213 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,560 Some of it's also to lead is to show the way. 214 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,000 It's also providing direction. So you've got to have a bit of 215 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,320 positional authority, but you've more got to have the authority 216 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,760 that comes with knowing and and often having experience and 217 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,400 maybe a track record. So that's maybe why some of the 218 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,760 leaders are in senior roles and they've got a, they've got a bit 219 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,320 of mileage under the bonnet because having done it before 220 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,680 does give you the ability to talk a little bit. 221 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,960 Great. We've inspired, we've focused. 222 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:51,120 And then the secret sauce, if we were to ask what is leadership, 223 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,000 there's a version of it which is enable others to succeed. 224 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:03,200 So task three enable this is the no more heroes ideas. 225 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,560 You can't do everything yourself. 226 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,480 A really good leader enables others. 227 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:14,000 They've created the the place and that's maybe where we kick 228 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,920 into the second big idea, psychological purposefulness, 229 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:24,280 great psychological safety. You can be you in the 230 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,960 organisation. If it's at work, bring the whole 231 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,200 you to work, not, not the bits that you're trying to hide 232 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,120 because, you know, we've all got sort of interesting quirks. 233 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,920 Yeah, yeah. No, bring those two, you know, 234 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,520 in your fullness and richness and marvellousness. 235 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,160 Inspire, focus, enable, reinforce. 236 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,480 Because we are on the journey. Things and stuff will happen. 237 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,400 People will have brilliant ideas. 238 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,120 Yeah, they're all brilliant. However, back, back to focus and 239 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,200 then the bit which sometimes gets left off because in the 240 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,280 world of projects in particular, we are in a hurry. 241 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,200 Learn how do great organisations get better over time? 242 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,400 How do teams get better over time? 243 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,360 How do people get better over time? 244 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,040 It's making sure there is a place and a space to learn, to 245 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:25,280 kind of step back, to reflect, to do a doodle, to write a poem, 246 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:30,520 to draw a picture, to, to, to write a blog post for the APM, 247 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,600 you know, whatever floats you. And then you go that that's it. 248 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,160 Wow. And so thanks, Thanks David, 249 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,960 John and Adrian for for kind of spending a bit of time to think 250 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,160 through that on their experiences. 251 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,880 And so sometimes, yeah, on a dark night and I'm pondering, 252 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,840 you know, what's what is this leadership thing, because it 253 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,200 take you many directions. That's one of the places that I 254 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,400 come back to. Yes. 255 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,960 Which what do leaders do, Gordon? 256 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,120 What what what's what do you think about that? 257 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,520 Is there anything you'd like to add, agree, Disagree with? 258 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:08,200 Oh, I agree. Certainly. 259 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,840 Yeah. I resonate a lot with what we're 260 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,280 saying there. And there's a couple of things 261 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,040 that came to mind. There's a gentleman called Dave 262 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:19,360 Marquet, not Mackay, MARQU EE. He wrote a book called Turn the 263 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,520 Ship Around. He was appointed to take charge 264 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,920 of the worst operating submarine in the American fleet, as 265 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,000 assessed, and within a year he turned it round to best. 266 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,600 And then in addition to that, more people went on. 267 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,240 Officers went on to become captains of ships subsequently 268 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,280 who'd worked for him and his approach to this, we're talking 269 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,000 about enabling there was when people came to him with a 270 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,320 problem of challenging. So what's your intent to foster 271 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,040 that engagement and give people motivation, a vision, inspire 272 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,240 them to enable others to rise up? 273 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,600 And I think that's a great way of dealing with complexity. 274 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,560 It's a little bit like as well in project delivery these days 275 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,760 in critical chain, for example, we're trying to identify 276 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,160 constraints and being aware and a little bit about learning. 277 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,359 As we're going through the project now, it's increasingly 278 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:17,280 important to as, as another thought, Doctor Sabrina Cohen 279 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,400 Hatton, she's chief fire officer, and she instigated a 280 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,920 new technique whereby when the incident commander lands at the 281 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,800 scene of fire and looks at Grenfell Tower burning, and then 282 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,680 they look at one thing, they look at another thing and 283 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,840 basically they're building an observational bias. 284 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,240 I've got this picture in our terms. 285 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,720 How am I going to deliver this project? 286 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,800 Yes, I know exactly what I'm going to do. 287 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,560 And then Sabrina Cohen Hatton's interjection comes in and she 288 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,400 says, what have you missed? And all too often with projects, 289 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,520 we're failing to do this on an ongoing basis in the sense 290 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,360 particularly of what's changed, what are the critical factors, 291 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,680 what are the constraints and delivery to be learning all the 292 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,240 time, learning from the good, learning from the bad. 293 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,520 And we do a risk assessment. We should also be doing 294 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,600 opportunity assessments on a regular basis because things are 295 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,200 changing all the time. You might be able to say by 296 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,400 something that's available, wasn't available yesterday. 297 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,680 So I think that learning thing, particularly in a complex 298 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,360 delivery environment and a key factor in successfully 299 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,520 navigating complexity is to become a consistently open to 300 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,760 new learning that builds in a level of modesty. 301 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,480 No, I don't know everything. A lot less egocentric. 302 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,760 I'm prepared to learn and listen to others. 303 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,800 I'm encouraging people to contribute and tell me if 304 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,720 they're aware of a different perspective of something 305 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,840 happening that I might not be aware of. 306 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,160 So this enabler function I think is key and offering that sense 307 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,680 of trust that people feel they can speak up and come forward, 308 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,960 enabling people to realise their potential as individuals. 309 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,880 And under the Hersey Blanchard level, for the APM people to 310 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,840 step back in the Tuchman bit, are we forming, storming, 311 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,760 norming, taking people to evolve through that whole thing? 312 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,200 I think all too often people on the Hersey Blanchard get stuck 313 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,480 in the directing. They never get through to the 314 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,760 coaching level. And we should be doing that with 315 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,320 individuals and the team. How is the team operating? 316 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,880 Is Jack talking to Jill? If not, why not? 317 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,240 What I can, what can I do to to foster communications, that kind 318 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,760 of thing. Have you got any advice on 319 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,000 creating the right kind of culture as a leader? 320 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,720 Because you have that responsibility. 321 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,280 Whether or not you realise it, you are a role model and people 322 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,480 are looking to you for direction in a way that they don't from 323 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,760 their manager. I think the key one in that for 324 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,480 me, I go back to Eric Byrne and transaction analysis and the 325 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,880 idea that in management terms we're very often talking parent 326 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,840 child communications. It tends to be one way, It tends 327 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,040 to be quite assertive and and for me counterproductive. 328 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,800 Taking the Dave Rock neuroscience model, the SCARF 329 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,440 model, you actually inhibit people's neurological 330 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,720 performance by relating to them in that way, whereas with the 331 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,640 more adult adult form, and this also ties you in another 332 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,720 conversation earlier. And they're about leadership and 333 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,800 we tend to traditionally think of leaders and followers. 334 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:15,880 I think in this context, to be effective, it's leaders and team 335 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,720 members because we're trying to close that gap and bring the 336 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,960 team members upwards rather than keeping them all followers do as 337 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,680 I say, not, you know, that kind of thing. 338 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,040 So the adult adult conversations to Foster and bring out the best 339 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,600 in everybody, I think is key. So communication should reflect 340 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,480 this adult, adult relationship. If I come to you as a culture 341 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,640 and mentor and a mentor, not in the dictatorial sense, but 342 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,720 somebody that's on your side, building mutual respect, 343 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,480 building rapport, rather than trying to dominate and command 344 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,520 and control, it'll be far more effective in soliciting and 345 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,120 enlisting the best and that person realising their 346 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:58,120 potential. Yes, and I think, I think the 347 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:04,160 mood music in an organisation is sort of indicative of the 348 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,720 culture. So you know, and sometimes 349 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,600 storytelling can help, but a lot of it was just just observing 350 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,560 behaviour. So storytelling is occasionally 351 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,800 who are the heroes, who are the villains? 352 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,720 You know, sometimes it's getting people to reflect back on 353 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,960 experiences, you know, what worked well, what did not work, 354 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,600 work so well. And that's, that's sort of 355 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:34,040 bringing in a learning culture, I think being reflective on. 356 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,280 And if I, if I can come on to sort of a slightly wider point, 357 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,080 what one of the frames that that we're trying to encourage people 358 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:48,640 to, to look at is, is how they lead a project and how they lead 359 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,600 themselves. And the challenge here is 360 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,920 understanding yourself. And there are Ways and Means to 361 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,080 do that. And then understanding your 362 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,560 impact on others. And there's Ways and Means to do 363 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,200 that. So in terms of learning about 364 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:09,160 yourself, because personality, you know, kind of two or three 365 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,920 years post puberty's fairly, fairly settled. 366 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,160 So you, you can kind of do psychometrics on people and then 367 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,520 do it later on. If it's a good psychometric, if 368 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,240 it's reliable, it, it, it suggests that personality is 369 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:30,080 quite stable. Our, our preferred 1 is the, 370 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:36,000 it's known as a neo. It measures the big 5 factors of 371 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,560 personality. That's that's I think the the 372 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,000 best regarded measure of that and just helping people 373 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,320 understand themselves. This what one of the personality 374 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,840 characteristics people are most familiar with is sort of 375 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,280 introversion, extroversion, one of the five, and then there's 376 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,120 four others. Helping understand yourself 377 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,200 helps you explain how you behave in different settings. 378 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:05,600 Great, there's a bit of that's you. 379 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,360 Most people have that. They've got sort of natural 380 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:15,560 talents that have helped them in their lives and careers. 381 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,320 Many people have recognised that there's work rounds they need to 382 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,560 do that. The introvert extrovert things. 383 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,840 Most introverts worked out that the world is mainly built for 384 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,000 extroverts and they will mimic extrovert behaviours even though 385 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,320 it could be quite tiring. And the other 4 characteristics 386 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,480 have similar sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 387 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,800 So one of them is it's, it's known as neuroticism, which is 388 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,480 also often as a pejorative thing, but it's emotional 389 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,880 reactivity. So some type of people with low 390 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,920 emotional reactivity just really stable, but they miss a lot. 391 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,800 And people who are sort of, you know, high emotional reactivity, 392 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,840 they're just a little bit more finely tuned. 393 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,600 And in many, yeah, it can be slightly exhausting for them and 394 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,440 occasionally for others around them, but they're really good at 395 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,280 picking up weak signals. Ah, great. 396 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,720 You know, that's, that's an asset. 397 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,880 Then we get other things. Agreeableness, conscientiousness 398 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,280 is something that we kind of often hope for in people in the 399 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,880 project profession. Will you get this done? 400 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,440 Yes, however long it takes. And can also be a curse for 401 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,200 those who are very conscientious because they end up working late 402 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,680 and burning out. You know, sometimes they would 403 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,400 wish they were the person who could, you know, kind of close 404 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,320 the laptop at 5:30 or wander off and do something else. 405 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,240 And so understanding yourself helps explain how you show up. 406 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,720 And then how do you show up? Well, you know, you can ask 407 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,680 people, but things like 360° surveys of seniors, peers, 408 00:24:54,120 --> 00:25:00,240 colleagues, team members, yeah, etcetera are really useful just 409 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,240 to give people clues on you're good at this, you're not so good 410 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,240 at that. And one of the really big ideas 411 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:15,080 we've found hugely useful is the incomplete leader Gordon. 412 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,560 We've we've just met. You seem wonderful in every way. 413 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,960 And then even, you might be thinking, I've, I've done a good 414 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,360 job masking this because if even with my wonderfulness and my 415 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,600 great experience, I really, really struggle at this. 416 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,640 And sometimes you find a way to kind of, you know, just just 417 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,160 kind of do enough. And then for some people, 418 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,040 there's just some things you go, I've tried it. 419 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,280 I was rubbish at it at school, I'm rubbish at it now. 420 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,680 And so the other half of this big idea, incomplete leader, 421 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,720 complete team, it's having teams made-up of diverse 422 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,880 personalities, skill sets and experiences. 423 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,600 And when you kind of go, you go Gino, that's blooming genius, 424 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,080 except for a traditional thing of people often recruiting teams 425 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,360 in their likeness. And it's like, wow, you've got 426 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,800 all the same strengths and all the same weaknesses. 427 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:27,680 That is not a good team. So, so sometimes leadership is 428 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,240 know yourself, understand how you show up at work in those 429 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,200 leader environments and how you create that team and, and 430 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,440 cherishing the difference. Oh, now we're now we're talking. 431 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,600 That's quite a if you're a leader for the first time. 432 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,000 Sorry, Paul, That was really, really great words of advice 433 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,200 there. I'm thinking if perhaps you 434 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:58,320 haven't much experience of being a leader, it's quite daunting to 435 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:04,320 say I don't know everything and I'm not good at everything, but 436 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,400 so you have to be quite brave, I think. 437 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,240 And the other thing I've been chewing over was, as you were 438 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,680 talking, and inclusivity is a big thing and you can, you know, 439 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,720 the the benefits of that are appreciated at every level. 440 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:25,800 But how inclusivity, including different ways of thinking in a 441 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,360 team means there's going to be discord or challenge. 442 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:38,520 And as a leader, how do you deal with that in a positive way? 443 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,920 Because I guess the reason many people higher in their likeness 444 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,240 is because they get on with people and it's like a shortcut 445 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,960 to getting stuff done. And we know that's lazy and you 446 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,400 won't get the best outcome necessarily. 447 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,720 So how, how do you change? How do you frame things in a way 448 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,800 that you think, well, this is going to be exciting or 449 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,720 challenging because there'll be people who will think completely 450 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,400 differently to me that have you any words of advice about 451 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,800 creating a culture as a leader or being a role model when it 452 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:18,200 comes to leading people, people with very different opinions? 453 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,480 Can I there's two points here. I've got and pick up the first 454 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,960 one and one is careers. And, and there's a, there's a, a 455 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,680 development through early stage career, which is deepening 456 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,760 subject matter expertise. And, and we see that in 457 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,440 projects. I, I had a few years chairing 458 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,840 the professional standards and knowledge committee and I'm 459 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,960 very, very proud of the APMS kind of qualifications. 460 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,720 So project fundamentals is a brilliant go to start 461 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,360 qualification. It shows that you understand the 462 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,600 fundamentals. They're really important. 463 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,480 And then you kind of that that worked well. 464 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,960 And I'll deepen my such a matter of expertise and maybe I can 465 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,680 reflect that with the management qualification and then the 466 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,400 project professional qualification. 467 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,360 And happiness is, you know, more childhood project professionals. 468 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,760 And what they're doing is they're deepening. 469 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,840 And increasingly that's the awkwardness in that career. 470 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,280 If somebody asks you a question, they expect an answer. 471 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,280 I like to say there's just a quite remarkable moment in a 472 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,200 career where you become comfortable with, I don't know, 473 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,320 and it might the next bit of that sentence might be, I don't 474 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:39,560 know, I'll go and ask the expert in my team because I lead 475 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,720 experts. Oh, right. 476 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,600 So so you're not the expert. No, I'm the leader of experts. 477 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,720 That's why I have a team. And particularly if it's the 478 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,840 subject matter expertise is not just getting projects done, 479 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,600 project management stuff, but maybe some other technical 480 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,280 things as well. So we have deep subject matters 481 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,520 and it's going, what you've done is you've created this amazing 482 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,280 group of subject matters living experts living their best life. 483 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,400 And one of the problems organisations have, and you 484 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,200 know, I've bumped into this first working with Rolls Royce 485 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,840 aero engines is at the time, and it was a while ago, I'm sure 486 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600 things have been proved really good engineers and there's a 487 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,880 proper engineering company could only progress in their careers 488 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,800 if they went into management. And so Rolls Royce risked the 489 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,640 lost a good engineer, gained a bad manager. 490 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,920 And so just getting that some engineers are also good 491 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,360 managers, some engineers are also great leaders, but they're 492 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:51,080 mutually exclusive. So when you move up the to a 493 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,280 point of leadership where it's being comfortable with the 494 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,320 unknowing, it's you know, you get weird expressions like it's 495 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:06,960 it's knitting fog and managing uncertainty and not foe trying 496 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,480 to pretend that things are all well, we know where we're going 497 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:17,880 and we know how to get there. You don't so because no one 498 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,960 knows, because it's unknowable. So should we pretend that we do 499 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,320 or should we acknowledge and embrace? 500 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,920 So I think that's that's part part of part of that. 501 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,280 And sometimes that's why it's quite difficult and an 502 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,360 authenticity and being comfortable with not knowing 503 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,080 might be one of the the kind of key signs. 504 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,640 And then your second question is around how, how do you get that 505 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,680 breadth? And I think sometimes there is a 506 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,200 bit of an illumination and most begin it's this. 507 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,040 Yeah, actually, we, you know, no, no one's great at 508 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,040 everything. And that does run counter to 509 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,040 some cultures in in the military for a long time, there was the 510 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,800 notion of the well-rounded officer. 511 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,120 And then you meet officers and, and, and they're not 512 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,960 well-rounded and haven't met 1 yet. 513 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,880 And so it's like really great. So, so I can be a bit more a bit 514 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,160 more of myself. Yeah, there's minimum standards 515 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,600 of stuff, obviously. But then what we're to do is 516 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,880 build that team. And maybe that's one of the 517 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,640 things that we need to just call out in teams that are a bit, you 518 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,880 know, they're kind of the intellectual gene pool was a bit 519 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,680 bit shallow. Go ahead. 520 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,840 Sorry, sorry. Yeah, a few prompted a few 521 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,120 thoughts there. Stephen Covey, 7 Habits highly 522 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,520 Affected people and Sir John Whitmore, Coaching for 523 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,760 performance. Both refer to some called the 524 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,440 leadership curve, which is about, as it were, the 525 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,320 psychological progression, the journey, the adventure of 526 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,280 emotional and intelligence from being almost childhood up to 527 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,160 leadership. And there's a key part where 528 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,080 people get stuck. So we start off independence 529 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,120 when we're looking around us to say I'm OK, mummy, daddy, what, 530 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,800 what makes me good, what makes me bad. 531 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,960 You know, we grew up this curve. And then we move to the stage of 532 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,080 independence. So we know that people in that 533 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,520 testosterone fuel period from 15 to 25 or whatever, I know 534 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:21,880 everything. Don't tell me what to do. 535 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,720 I'll get home on a Friday night whenever I want, so nobody tells 536 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,120 me what to do. I know everything. 537 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,640 Very self assured, very assertive, at least on the 538 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,040 surface. However often there's a lot of 539 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,320 uncertainty and insecurity underneath that. 540 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,560 But nonetheless, they're in that stage of independence, the final 541 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,240 step which mirrors the journey that was the Hero's Journey by 542 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,800 Joseph John Campbell. Joseph Campbell It gets to the 543 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,000 point where as leaders, as managers, we one day get to that 544 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,520 point, a transition key transition moment into adulthood 545 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,000 in the sense that we realise, you know what, I don't know 546 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,600 everything I need this team, this diverse team, collective 547 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,840 team working together, otherwise it's not going to happen. 548 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,960 And that's when they move into the stage of interdependence. 549 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,880 And that's the emotionally intelligent leader who 550 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,600 recognises interdependence. The need for others is not 551 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,560 insecure or discomforted by the fact that, and this is the 552 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,320 reality, folks, isn't it? Some of these people around the 553 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,480 table know more than I do. In fact, many of them may be a 554 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,800 master's degree in chemistry, engineering, things that I don't 555 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,199 have, I need them. There's no way I can talk to 556 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:39,320 them as a subject matter expert. My function and the form of fit 557 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,800 for purpose leadership is being able to draw upon all that and 558 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,560 not feel threatened by the fact that others no more, but 559 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,080 actually to encourage that and to get that done. 560 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,920 Collective dynamic working. I, I would just 100% agree with 561 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,800 you, but how as a project leader, when you're dealing with 562 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:05,200 experts, can you get them to trust you that you know what 563 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,960 you're doing and that it's OK that you don't know what they 564 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,320 know? Because and that can be a 565 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:21,320 problem for younger women who enter a project in who work at 566 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,160 leading projects in male dominated environments like 567 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,120 construction, the built environment, infrastructure 568 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,320 projects where they're perceived as a young woman. 569 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,440 And sometimes that's taken as you, they're not given the level 570 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,160 of respect, but you would normally give a leader because 571 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,160 they're perceived as being although too young or they don't 572 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,400 know what they're talking about. And it comes down to 573 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,200 self-confidence as well, which is still remains an issue. 574 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,520 It was something that came up at the APM Women in Project 575 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,160 Management conference that I attended recently. 576 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,920 And this is a little bit like what prompts the idea that, you 577 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,200 know, of holding people to account and stuff very often and 578 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,680 that that need to become suddenly very assertive. 1 can 579 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,120 be decisive. But the assertiveness and that 580 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,000 command and control thing, I think we're misled very often. 581 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,800 Let me let me try and make this a bit clearer. 582 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,280 So in the scenario you just proffered, you've got into the 583 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,280 room and you've effectively said I'm the leader. 584 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,480 Trust me, this is what you need to do. 585 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,640 And depending on what you look like, your sex, your race, any 586 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,560 number of things, your mode of communicating, people will judge 587 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,360 and make a decision. The reality is in project 588 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,360 delivery, if we're doing this well, by the time you get to 589 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,240 that point where you're making that decision, because sometimes 590 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,800 we do have to be decisive as the project leader. 591 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,760 Yeah, we do have to make a decision even though we're 592 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,520 surrounded by subject matter experts who are in their own 593 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,920 field more highly qualified than they do. 594 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,280 But it shouldn't be based really in in a well planned environment 595 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,440 such that that's the first time they've seen me. 596 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,840 And that's, you know, I'm making this decision and they don't 597 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,840 know anything about me. In other words, what I'm 598 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,760 fostering here is building up relationships with people so 599 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,280 that when you get into that scenario where you've got the 600 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,960 room full of people or not the room full of people, but you get 601 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,520 the idea. I'm working with the team, they 602 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,800 know me. I'm building up trust and 603 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,680 confidence in me over time. So when it comes to that 604 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,960 situation in the meeting where we've had all the information on 605 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,200 the table and I need. To make a decision, they know 606 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,560 that it's an informed decision because they know that I'm going 607 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,600 around and pulling this information from multiple 608 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,680 sources and coming to an informed view and building that 609 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,280 respect such that they would trust me. 610 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,080 Trust is at the heart of this, isn't it? 611 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,600 It's building that relationship of trust and mutual respect, and 612 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,480 I should be working on that so that by the time we get to that 613 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,880 point they shouldn't be the same level of potential conflict and 614 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,880 contention. So that's partly about building 615 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,080 a trusted reputation because you might be dealing with people you 616 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,400 haven't worked with. You might be constantly on new 617 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,480 teams. And so it's being conscious that 618 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,000 you need or being aware that you need to build a reputation where 619 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,680 you are trusted for, for, for, you know, doing a great job. 620 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,960 Paul, is there anything you wanted to add? 621 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,080 I think I think what what we might be kind of really pushing 622 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,040 into and I think great, great point, Emma. 623 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:30,800 It's it's the enabling people to succeed aspect of leadership. 624 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,440 And sometimes that is the thing that senior leaders do. 625 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,840 You know, what are people doing at the senior team in the board 626 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,000 is, and it might be always the hygiene factors of we've got 627 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,000 policies about stuff like this and we will monitor them and 628 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,760 make sure they happen happening. For example, we yeah, we have a 629 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:59,440 policy on gender equality and parity across the organisation. 630 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:05,600 So, you know, not just yet 50% men, 50% women, but that's 631 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,840 reflected in all of the layers of management because sometimes 632 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,400 we see the numbers and then we look at the senior leadership 633 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,240 team and it's all blokes. It's like, hang on, what's 634 00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,480 what's going on here? Something's not working. 635 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,480 So, so it needs a policy, it needs to have measurement and 636 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,440 performance against it. And then I think there is that 637 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,360 it requires just that understanding and listening. 638 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,680 And some some of this is the empathetic engagement of going 639 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:40,760 what what's required to create that environment where people 640 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,400 can succeed on their ability. And the only judgement is on 641 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,000 your character, not no other characteristic. 642 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:54,240 And it's like, OK, and maybe this is where, again, back to 643 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:58,440 psychological purposefulness. Are you are you messaging in a 644 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,520 way that appeals to people? Yeah, I really want to come and 645 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,720 work there. Bright young, bright young thing 646 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,080 with options wants to come and work there. 647 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,640 A bright young thing with options can see that that's a 648 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,880 place to invest their career because people like them get on 649 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,560 in a place like this. And some of that is just, you 650 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,600 know, I've read the words, but I look at your org chart and if 651 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,680 it's got pictures, can I see people like me getting on? 652 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,960 I'll go and try somewhere else. And then I think the 653 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,680 psychological safety is also creating environments where 654 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,600 people can call out that stuff is not working for me because, 655 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,600 you know, listening, acting upon. 656 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,600 And. And some of that seems like it 657 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,960 should have been high hygiene factors. 658 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,560 Yeah. There should have been stuff 659 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,400 that was resolved in the age of my grandma, who was born at a 660 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,560 time before women had votes, you know, all the time. 661 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,720 My mum that went into the career just after equal pay was enacted 662 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:14,000 in law, you know, However, you know, as many people will know 663 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,200 and experience, the reality of that dream hasn't quite landed. 664 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,360 And there are some parts of the project profession where it 665 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,920 hasn't yet. Don't worry folks, because there 666 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:32,800 are other parts where it has and at that point, talent goes to 667 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:38,680 where it will flourish. Maybe, maybe there's a market 668 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,240 solution there. One thing that's intriguing me 669 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:50,600 is the age-old question A a leaders born or made because 670 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,800 right early on in our conversation you said you're 671 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,640 just, you're both kind of leading to the fact that you 672 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,680 just know someone's got that leadership thing. 673 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,360 So there was a big phase in leadership writing that it it 674 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,120 wasn't, you know, anyone can become a great leader if you 675 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,840 work hard enough. But I'm wondering if is that 676 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,640 true? Like, do you think that's there 677 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,600 is this kind of magic thing about a person that makes a 678 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,240 great leader or is it something that can be learnt? 679 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,120 I think emotional intelligence is at the core of affected 680 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,960 project leadership. And obviously a key necessity 681 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,400 for that is not being too egotistical and having empathy 682 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,720 and being able to progress along that journey and as you do and 683 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:38,040 develop the emotional intelligence. 684 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,880 So that the answer I'm putting is yes, for the majority of 685 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,480 people, it is possible to become good and effective leaders as we 686 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,880 develop our abilities in terms of building relationships, 687 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,000 building trust. I think there's three or four 688 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,320 steps in there, which is securing much mutual respect, 689 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,400 establishing rapport on the basis of rapport comes 690 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,800 collaboration. And if you happen to be in that 691 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,680 position, you know, then people you're building trust as well 692 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,040 and people will bestow and recognise you as a coached 693 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,960 mentor equals kind of the equals kind of leader. 694 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,920 You're the go to person and they defer and recognise that you 695 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,040 trust and respect them and building those relationships 696 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,800 over time and your communications. 697 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,960 When I'm with the team, I've got my idea about things. 698 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,720 But hey Emma, what do you think Paul, what do you think? 699 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,640 And being open about inviting people to contribute and not 700 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,000 knocking people down, but encouraging people to express 701 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,200 their views, that kind of thing. Thanks, Gordon. 702 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,080 Oh, what do you think? I'm. 703 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:53,520 I'm 97% on maid not born. 3% is just wondering about the role of 704 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,000 sociopaths. I know, I know. 705 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,480 Oh yes, there's been stuff written about this, hasn't 706 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,640 there? Yeah, they they do seem to 707 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:07,320 succeed in in many organisations, but I'm not 708 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,080 convinced they make great leaders. 709 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,080 But I'm even happy to debate that because sociopaths are 710 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,440 entirely self centred. And it may be that a bit like 711 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,640 the profit motive actually. If people pursue profit, social 712 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,720 good can often follow. And maybe if sociopaths pursue 713 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:33,080 their self-interest, maybe there's sort of, but but that's 714 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,360 the 3%. Hang on back to the 97%. 715 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:43,160 And I think some of that comes from just a clearer view on what 716 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,600 what is leadership? What do leaders do? 717 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,080 And then helping people find their way. 718 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,480 And This is why I think the incomplete leader idea was so 719 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:58,440 powerful, because you find a version of you work with your 720 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:04,200 strengths, work on your areas of development, work around your 721 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,960 resistant limitations. Be careful of the shadow you 722 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,960 cast. Dial down your overplayed 723 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,720 strengths. And in, in a good team setting, 724 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,320 they'll just constantly get some of that feedback, you know, or 725 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,520 if there's less of that. And over time, you know, we've 726 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,280 got better thinking and understanding of resilience, 727 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:33,440 physical, emotional, spiritual. And, you know, it turns out 728 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,160 that's OK to talk about in the workplace because it's, you 729 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,680 know, it's about helping people. And then there's also skill 730 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,520 sets. So a bit of my works on what the 731 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,720 sponsors do. So we've had the, we had the 732 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:52,080 manager leader debate. There's the the kind of leader 733 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,880 sponsor and a thing to also go into and it's like as we 734 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,400 understand that role, there's technical skill sets. 735 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,480 This is what you need to do. Here's how you can do it well. 736 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,360 Practise with feedback often delivers results. 737 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,880 And then I think you can also chop up leadership in so many 738 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,160 different ways. There's up and out bid ship, 739 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,720 there's down and in the systems leadership, there's team 740 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,920 leadership. If if there was 1 and maybe you 741 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,920 didn't quite mean it this way, Gordon, but if there's one just 742 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,160 slight kind of maybe little push back. 743 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,000 And this comes from the experience of just standing on a 744 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,120 touchline watching grassroots football for my for my little 745 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:45,080 lad from the age of four through to now, a kind of lanky 12. 746 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,000 In that team of kids. You can see people who are 747 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,840 really good at football and just, you know, they wake up, 748 00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,080 they kick balls around when they get told to stop kicking balls 749 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,960 around. They read football magazines and 750 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,880 watch football on telly. It's like, oh, for goodness 751 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:10,000 sake, really good footballers. And also on the pitch, there are 752 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,560 people who are showing leadership skills, not 753 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,760 necessarily the best football players. 754 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:24,920 And it's like, you can see that at primary school and maybe we 755 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,640 see that in other parts of the playground. 756 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,040 And there's again, there's now some of that is that inherent 757 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:38,440 empathetic EQ. And at some point it's like, but 758 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,640 the way Brownies and Guides works, the way that other clubs 759 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,720 and groups work is about supporting flourishing. 760 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,400 And there's something. There you go. 761 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,280 Do you know we can do this? I think there's a whole other 762 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,880 subject area here that we could encroach into and 763 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,000 distinguishing. And it is a it's a the Pandora's 764 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,280 box is the distinct distinguishing between charisma 765 00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:10,360 and leadership and charisma is that room that you walk into. 766 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,000 And this is the story I heard. You know, somebody walked in and 767 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,480 there are that's really and enraptured by and mesmerised by 768 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,400 it. And then suddenly looking around 769 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,440 and realising everybody had a look on their faces as if they 770 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,640 were mesmerised, literally mesmerised. 771 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,200 You know, they've been hypnotised and people have the 772 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,320 ability to do this. It doesn't necessarily make them 773 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,760 good leaders. In fact, when you go into that 774 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,600 mode of being subjected to somebody that's it's 775 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,160 charismatic, we tend to lose a lot of our cerebral function. 776 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,040 So can that be? Actually. 777 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,960 If there was one piece of advice that you'd want to pass on to 778 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,560 listeners around leadership? Bit of impossible question, I 779 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,680 know, but what? What might that one thing be? 780 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,760 I did a course. With John Hopkins University on 781 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,600 psychological emergency, psychological aid, that kind of 782 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,320 thing, psychological first aid. And one of the things they found 783 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,120 that the help with people after awful situations was being able 784 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,880 to tap into a memory of somebody in your own experience. 785 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,600 That like that example I gave at the beginning of Doctor Cecil 786 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:31,560 Todd, had inspired me from the inside out and to understand 787 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,120 leadership. Ask yourself which of my models 788 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,760 that I've got in my head of what good leadership look like 789 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,840 reflects that personal experience of somebody that 790 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,040 touched me on the inside, brought out the best in me, 791 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,400 helped me get out the box, got me out of a dark space. 792 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,200 Even in the darkest of days when I remember them, I have a smile. 793 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,200 And that on a personal level is very powerful both to inform 794 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,880 your road to to what good looks like, as well as questioning 795 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,600 some of those stereotypes that we get fed through the movies 796 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,200 and stories and all the rest of it. 797 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,800 Just challenge that a little bit and ask if that person was in 798 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,320 the room with you and they they were acting in that kind of 799 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,640 leadership, would you feel comfortable or uncomfortable? 800 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,440 So there's that thing. And then in a personal level, 801 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,400 who in your life, as from the stories we're told today, does 802 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,000 what does good look like? What does good leadership look 803 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,640 like in your experience? And learn from that. 804 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,200 Paul, what what would your piece of advice or source of wisdom 805 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:37,880 be? I'll, I'll offer the, the, the, 806 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:44,720 the leader is you and sort of go and, and sometimes there's a 807 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,920 what little, little old me like. Yeah. 808 00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,080 And you know, there's there's no opportunity. 809 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:56,640 Just just start with yourself. I think we're often compelled 810 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,680 for reasons we cannot explain, to do things that we know are 811 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,240 not necessarily the best thing. It's kind of the it's the basis 812 00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:06,880 of addictive behaviour. I know this isn't good for me. 813 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,520 I can't stop myself. For me, it's crisps, you know, 814 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,200 it's kind of like, and I use that as a small, a small light 815 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,760 hearted example. For other people, it's more 816 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,520 substantial things to the point where to use the crisps analogy, 817 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,320 I cannot buy crisps and I won't have them in the house because 818 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,240 I'll eat them. No, no bag has proved too big. 819 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:34,280 You know, it's like, wow. And so start with leadership of 820 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:40,080 self and then the really powerful idea of the incomplete 821 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:45,440 leader, because sometimes we, we get to leadership of, you know, 822 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,880 kind of some level of perfection, some level of 823 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,240 perfection at all times and all things. 824 00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,800 And no leaders ever were they were all incomplete. 825 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,920 Occasionally if you were flawed, let's not go there. 826 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:00,880 They weren't great at everything. 827 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,800 And that's part it's going. So, So what am I good at? 828 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,160 You know, I'm actually quite good at these things. 829 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,360 Great. Are there things you can work 830 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,400 on? You know, my, my natural kind of 831 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,960 personality comes in useful for these things and I can work on 832 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,160 that. And the incomplete nurse is and 833 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,800 what is it I need to work around often with the help of others. 834 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,880 So start with yourself and then that's, that's really 835 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,880 contagious. You you can then bring that into 836 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,840 domestic family settings into work into voluntary settings, 837 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,040 into social settings and just go. 838 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,560 Do you know I'm not too Shelby at this. 839 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,880 And and by doing that, they start to then become role modest 840 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,560 for others and then it really cascades. 841 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,080 I loved your point, Gordon, because, you know, the 842 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,280 expectation could be super high. So maybe have a few people in 843 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,800 mind again, people that you've known, people that you've 844 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,600 experienced. For me, my grandma's somebody 845 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,480 that just think, wow, you know, she she was from really modest 846 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,280 backgrounds and with just for grandma. 847 00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,080 But sometimes, you know, I wonder what she would have done 848 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,080 usually helps guide us in the right direction. 849 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,560 And one of her great kind of contributions to to me in life 850 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,240 is just being kind. Start, OK, start with yourself. 851 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:38,040 Thank you. It just leaves me to thank both 852 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:43,000 of you for joining us. Don't forget to look out for 853 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,200 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 854 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,600 podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 855 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,080 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 856 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,600 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify and YouTube users, 857 00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,600 please do also leave us your comments. 858 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,800 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body 859 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,120 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 860 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,560 visit apm.org.uk.