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Hello and welcome to the APM 
podcaster. 

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My name is Professor Adam 
Bodison and I'm the chief 

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Executive of APM and your host 
today. 

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We're delighted to welcome to 
the podcast Dhruv Patel. 

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Dhruv is an APM honorary fellow 
and chief executive and founder 

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of the Nissai Group. 
His company specialises in the 

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delivery of online education 
services to learners around the 

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world, particularly to what it 
calls non traditional students. 

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And we'll get into that. 
I suspect in the conversation, 

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Dhruv is going to share his 
experience of project delivery 

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in the education sector, as well
as the role of technology and 

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hopefully a few leadership 
insights too. 

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So Dhruv, thanks very much for 
joining us. 

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And to kick off, perhaps let's 
talk a little bit about you. 

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Can you give us maybe a sense of
your background and your career 

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to date? 
And maybe tell us why you 

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decided to found Nissai Group? 
OK. 

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Thank you Adam for inviting me 
to this broadcast. 

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So I in a very traditional way 
going to a traditional 

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education, but then decided to 
not go in all of my parents 

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footstep, my father's footstep 
in medicine, decided to be an 

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accountant and a chartered 
accountant. 

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And after I got qualified, I 
decided I did enough of it and 

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decided to go into business. 
So decided into what I would 

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call training adults in IT and 
stuff like that. 

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And then I found this software 
which allowed me to teach at a 

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distance. 
So we said, right, great. 

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And then fate, as they say, is 
an amazing thing. 

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I came across somebody in 
Birmingham and they wanted to 

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teach children who couldn't go 
to school because at the 

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hospital. 
And we had the technology which 

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allowed us to do this. 
And when we got into that, I 

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thought, wow, this is something.
But then the students couldn't 

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get education. 
So we said, right, let's set up 

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an online school. 
And this is going back to late 

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2001 in 2002 and that's when we 
started off. 

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So it's been working all this 
time to basically started off 

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with children in medically I'll 
me and then we started off with 

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children with learning 
disabilities, dis action and 

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then carried on from there on. 
So it is the way we teach, which

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is important. 
It was how the teachers were 

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trained to teach. 
It was not just teaching online,

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it was engagement and making 
sure that but also the same time

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what I found was that children 
were not in the centre of 

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learning, they were just a 
number. 

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And you know what technology 
allowed me to put to was to put 

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the learners in the centre of 
learning and also to help 

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personalise their learning 
because everybody learns 

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differently and everybody needs 
a different way of learning. 

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So technology allowed me to do 
that. 

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So we couldn't find any 
technology, so I had to create 

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and write the software with a 
team of my, my team in software 

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and which still exists and we 
still have our team in Stockton 

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which does all these things. 
But it is a continuous 

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improvement. 
And as we learn more and more, 

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we never stop learning about how
and what will affect and how we 

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have to do things. 
But it, technology allowed me to

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do that and, and it was quite an
amazing journey so far. 

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And I love what I do. 
And then we decided that, hey, 

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what we do here is working. 
So why can't we make this 

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affordable education everywhere 
across the world? 

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And so started out in Asia and 
the more I got involved in the 

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Asia side, the more I saw they 
don't understand inclusion 

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because, you know, it's, it's a 
stigma And how do we overcome 

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that? 
And how do we make this young 

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people because they are able to 
do a lot of good things. 

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Why shouldn't we make them 
happen? 

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And also, why shouldn't the 
people in the rural areas and 

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islands get the same level of 
education? 

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What stops it? 
So this is what we did. 

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So I'm really enjoying it. 
Yeah, well, it, it, it, you 

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know, it's really inspirational 
and you know, I've had the 

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pleasure of coming to see the 
centre in Stockton as well. 

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And, you know, you've got a 
whole range of different people 

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up there. 
You've got technologists, you've

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got teachers, you've got 
leaders, all kinds of people. 

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And obviously that's grown over 
time. 

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But it's one thing you have in a
vision, Dhruv, of, you know, 

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education, how you can change 
the world. 

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You've had to get all of these 
other people to come on board 

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and probably do something that 
was never in their mind to start

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with. 
You know, how did you, how did 

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you get people to kind of lie 
into your vision and to kind of 

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come on this journey with you? 
It is, as you say, it's a 

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challenge, but when you recruit 
the right kind of people, right?

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And I've been very fortunate, 
been very, very fortunate in 

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getting the right people on 
board and having a strong 

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relationships. 
But also I think what we are 

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doing is people buying into it. 
And even when you say to a 

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software programmer saying, 
right, you know, you've got a 

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choice. 
You can do programming for the 

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big boys or you can do something
which can really make an impact 

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and you can see the impact. 
I think they will choose the 

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latter because they want to make
an impact. 

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They don't want to be just a 
number. 

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So, and I had this so many times
with the My Software Choice guys

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in the sense that they used to 
say, right, OK, how got this new

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thing? 
And I would say, so how is it 

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going to affect my learner right
now? 

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When I come up with a new thing,
they turn around and say, so how

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is it going to affect our 
earners? 

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What a change that's progress, 
you know? 

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And that for me, he's saying, 
OK, I give up. 

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They know what they're doing 
now, you know. 

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Absolutely. 
So we, we talked earlier on 

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about the kind of some, some of 
the students you work with, you 

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know, there might not be 
accessing school. 

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You talked about those who are 
in hospitals before. 

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So tell us a bit more about 
these non traditional students 

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and who they are and and also 
what is it that that you're 

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providing that traditional 
education either can't or or 

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won't for whatever reason 
provide? 

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OK, So I think, I think the main
thing is that we have lots of 

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different learners, right, right
from learners with autism at SD,

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behaviour issues, mental health.
We have also young people in 

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just coming out of the secure 
states. 

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So we've got a whole sort of 
them, right. 

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The key element is that we don't
judge them because on what what 

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happens when in online, even 
though we don't usually have 

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webcams as well. 
So it's a level playing field. 

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Our teachers don't know which 
post code they come from. 

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Of course they know what their 
background is, but they don't 

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judge. 
That's the most important thing,

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right? 
The second thing is we don't 

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have a factory model. 
It's a you we don't have by age 

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group. 
We have ability level. 

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We have only 15 in a class, 
which means we have the same 

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ability, 15 in a class. 
No judgement doesn't make any 

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judge. 
But it's about half hour 

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sessions and able to get the 
pace right, putting the young 

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people in the right groups and 
let them be nurtured. 

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We also have a very good team of
student support officers in in 

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Stockton as well as on the 
ground. 

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We have mentors who go into the 
houses and support them on face 

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to face, but socially, 
emotionally as well. 

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So the idea is to give a whole 
wrap around service for our most

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vulnerable, but also create an 
environment where they can 

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thrive. 
So that's the most important 

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thing. 
Give them the environment and 

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they can engage and then we can 
take them on our journey. 

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It's and it's a journey which 
matters. 

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If you get the right journey, 
they'll get their end game. 

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If you don't put them on the 
right journey, they will never 

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get there. 
So it's very much a, a holistic 

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kind of service that you that, 
that you're offering there now. 

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And now I know as well as Nisi 
group or as part of Nisi group, 

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there's also the Nisi Education 
Trust, which is kind of AIII 

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hope I described this in the 
right way, the charitable arm of

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Nisi. 
Can you tell us a bit about what

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NET is and what it does, what 
its priorities are? 

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Right. 
So the Nisi Education Trust was 

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created by my wife and I to make
sure what we are doing can be 

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amplified, you know, in terms of
making. 

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And again, it's the objective of
that is to give people. 

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An. 
Ability to see what can be done 

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right and also to disseminate, 
disseminate information and 

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values of learning online. 
But more importantly, that there

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is a light at the end of the 
tunnel for some of the young 

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parents and parents who are in 
this situation, not only in the 

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UK, but around the world. 
And we have done some amazing 

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webinars and success seminars, 
live hybrid events and for 

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example in last November, 
December, we did an event in 

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Brunei which was all about 
inclusivity in education but 

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inclusivity in workplace. 
So neurodiversity is to make 

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people aware that this is there 
and that we have to have an 

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inclusive world, right? 
And make sure that whatever we 

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are doing, and we have now got 
this UKTRI grant to allow us to 

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have a a person in Stockton to 
be a research doctor person to 

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research all the outcomes which 
you have, how they can impact, 

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what is the impact value of it. 
And that is also supported by 

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Staffordshire University. 
So having those kind of stuff 

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with us, we can hopefully use it
to reform education not only in 

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the UK but elsewhere, make it 
much more informative about how 

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we can in make impact to those 
young kind of learners, not 

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sideline them, but bring them 
into the mainstream. 

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Because if you've got 20 to 25% 
of your class in this group, 

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that's a major group. 
And then you got on top of that 

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the COVID and mental health, 
we're coming to 30% of the 

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class. 
That's a hell of a human 

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resources which are not being 
deployed effectively. 

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Yeah, wow. 
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

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And and so, Drew, there will be 
people who are, who are watching

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or listening to to this 
conversation who might want to 

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find out more about the work 
that Nisai's doing, either the 

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education side or the charitable
side. 

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Is there a website they can go 
to to find out more? 

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Sure, it says 
www.threews.nisai.com. 

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That's it. 
Simple Nisa i.com. 

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OK, well, we'll, we'll let 
people have a look at that. 

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It's funny, the 
www.wheneveridowebsites. 

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And I would say that my children
say, Dad, you don't have to say 

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www.anymore only, only, only old
people say that, they say. 

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And I'm like, oh, I didn't know 
I was in the old category now, 

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but. 
Hey, join the club. 

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Yeah, I think you and me both 
OK, Well, so, so, so, so we'll 

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talk a bit about this. 
Let's talk a bit about project 

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management now. 
How would you say project 

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management has played a part in 
your career, for example in 

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developing your business or or 
enabling the kind of delivery of

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some of the services to your 
learners? 

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Has project management kind of 
been a part of that and can you 

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tell us a bit about that if it 
has? 

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In a way, yes, very strongly. 
And this is what I like about 

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when you formalise the project 
management. 

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We've been using project 
management in an informal way, 

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right, because we've got lots of
tasks, a lot of things, but the 

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things we forget that sometimes,
you know, if you have a really 

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good structured way. 
And we were with Fortunate 

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because I was with Fortunate, I 
was able to utilise the project 

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management tools within the 
technology side because we had 

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to have that for our software 
delivery and we use it and the 

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teams use it more often. 
But a knife see that the project

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delivery, project management 
delivery should be in every 

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session, everywhere where you 
got cross teams working because 

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you are a team, right? 
And for me, it's every, you 

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know, you've got to make sure 
the baton passing is correct 

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within the teams. 
And if you're doing a complex 

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work like we do in our children 
learning, right, because now 

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we're only just teaching, we're 
also supporting them. 

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We're doing things, you know, 
and everything has to meet and 

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on time. 
So it is something which is 

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needs to be done right. 
And I think one of the things 

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which I've been doing recently 
is asking people, OK, don't I 

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think project management is a 
big, but make it as part of your

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routine. 
Don't think of it as a separate,

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00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,000
separate. 
Just make it as part of your 

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00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,200
daily work routine and see how 
you can bring it to compare, 

228
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,560
right? 
Because I think we tend to 

229
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,920
again, put it in a box. 
I'll do a project management, 

230
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,120
right? 
No, it's you're doing it all the

231
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,920
time. 
Yeah, it's really interesting. 

232
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,240
So, so it sounds like tell, tell
me if I'm misinterpreting what 

233
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:03,360
you're saying here. 
It sounds like you're saying, 

234
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,920
look, we we're using project 
management in two ways here. 

235
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,880
Partly it's about delivering 
change and and so on as a 

236
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,960
business. 
But actually we're also kind of 

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00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,040
taking a more kind of 
projectified approach to our 

238
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,040
day-to-day work as well. 
And and you found that that 

239
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,640
helps with managing the kind of 
interdependencies and the 

240
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,440
complexities of of the nature of
the work that you do. 

241
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,120
Is that is that fair? 
Yes, it is. 

242
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,840
And also you know, we aren't 
working in 12 different 

243
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,160
countries and lots of time 
zones, right. 

244
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:32,400
So that's a challenge on his 
end. 

245
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,920
And and one of the things again,
I've got a lot of my managers 

246
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,080
who are task orientated and they
have their checklist and I said 

247
00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,200
great, now start putting that 
together and see how where are 

248
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,200
the problems are. 
So it is, it is getting that, 

249
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,600
how do I say it's trying to 
build that into the whole value 

250
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,680
chain, into the business. 
Yeah, that makes sense. 

251
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,880
We, we, we have a bit of a 
mantra here at APM and you may 

252
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,120
well have heard me say this 
before. 

253
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:02,200
True, I'm sure you have, which 
is that when projects succeed, 

254
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,320
society benefits. 
So we have this kind of linking 

255
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,680
together of the project 
profession and kind of societal 

256
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,800
impact. 
And I'm really interested to to 

257
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,000
kind of get your sense of the 
the potential that projects have

258
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,880
to change the world. 
For example, I think about 

259
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,840
something like the UNSDGS, the 
sustainable development Goals. 

260
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,640
You and I have had many 
conversations about them in the 

261
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,040
past. 
What's your sense of, of this 

262
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,680
capability, a capacity of 
projects to change the world? 

263
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,320
Well, let me just give. 
You an example potentially. 

264
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,080
So we have we should be getting 
a project in Thailand, right? 

265
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:42,800
We're dealing with schools and 
for learning with children out 

266
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,240
in the rheumatory areas and 
stuff. 

267
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,680
But that would involve us to put
together a teaching centre in 

268
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,480
one of the regions in Thailand 
and train them up and bullshit. 

269
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,560
So for that I've created a 
project management office in in 

270
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,440
Bangkok, right And it's I've got
a good project manager. 

271
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,360
He used to, he worked on the 
building of the second terminal,

272
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,480
Suvanaguhumi Airport. 
But to deliver, you know, the, 

273
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:18,560
the pilot and then deliver that 
right across the island, right, 

274
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,640
Train the teachers, recruit 
staff, get the space, all the 

275
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,560
equipment, got everything. 
Make sure everything is working,

276
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,520
make sure that technology is 
working. 

277
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,000
Hey, it's got to be something. 
But by the time we have 

278
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,640
delivered that we'll make a big 
impact, right, for those young 

279
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,080
people in the rural areas who 
would not get education because 

280
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,440
we would have something, a 
centralised teaching centre 

281
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,800
doing English and Thai 
curriculum, right? 

282
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,640
But that's where he starts 
making big impact. 

283
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,800
And I've just got another one. 
I hope they've agreed in 

284
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,000
principle in, in Malaysia, 
right, a similar 1. 

285
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,080
So you could see how and then 
you bring in rolling the and and

286
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,240
this is part of the nobody left 
behind a gender on the SDG as 

287
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,160
well, right? 
And you if you get the education

288
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,560
right, you get the poverty, you 
get the health, you get all 

289
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,800
those things, right. 
It's all the 17 sustainable 

290
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,480
development goals are all 
connected. 

291
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,680
It's education, as they say, you
know, it's education stupid. 

292
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,200
You know, that's what is 
acquired, you know, and, and 

293
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,280
that's what I see how this thing
makes it happen, you know? 

294
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,440
Yeah. 
So it's interesting to I, I 

295
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,880
probably in my kind of career 
which as, as you know also with 

296
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,120
an education background, I've 
been into hundreds, probably 

297
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,400
thousands of schools and trusts 
and so on. 

298
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,320
And, and I was thinking before 
our conversation today, I can 

299
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,000
only think of two out of all of 
those that where they had, you 

300
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,360
know, actually employed a 
project professional within the 

301
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,040
school or within the trust. 
Why? 

302
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,400
Why don't you think, you know, 
that schools and, and trust see 

303
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,920
the value of, of, of, of that 
kind of professional? 

304
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,800
Is it, is it a money thing or is
it, I don't know what, what do 

305
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,000
you think? 
I think I. 

306
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000
Think it's a legacy and this is 
my beef with education right 

307
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,599
now. 
We're still in that 

308
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,880
manufacturing age, right? 
So we are manufacturing people 

309
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,680
boom, boom, boom, boom. 
But now we're in a digital age. 

310
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,040
We're in a different age, right?
Our children need to work 

311
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,600
flexible, but we're still 
getting them in that silo. 

312
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,680
So when our kids come out of 
school, they don't have a clue 

313
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,560
about, but they're playing on 
games and playing on games on 

314
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,320
that, which are very much 
critical thinking, critical 

315
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,120
resources. 
And you know, that's project 

316
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,400
management, but nobody in the 
school understands that, right? 

317
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,760
Whereas we need our future 
employees to be much more 

318
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,080
flexible working right and 
understand how everything fits 

319
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,520
together and what project 
management. 

320
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,560
And This is why you and I know 
that we should be bringing kind 

321
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,480
of project management into 
schools, right, right. 

322
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,360
As a, as a way to say, hey guys,
this is the way you will be 

323
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:14,080
working and this is how it's 
interconnected. 

324
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,040
The world's going to be whether 
you have this current wave of me

325
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,680
alone society, right? 
You still will be included, 

326
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:23,880
right? 
It's got to be in connected 

327
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:24,480
world. 
Yeah. 

328
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,400
And it needs to be brought that 
across. 

329
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,240
And This is why I just do not 
understand why the schools don't

330
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,840
have it. 
I think it's just the way the 

331
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,800
education is right now. 
It's so manufacturing based. 

332
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,880
It's interesting, isn't it? 
Just as you were talking and I 

333
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,360
was thinking that, you know, if 
you think about people's 

334
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,200
personal lives, if you think 
about business, if you think 

335
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,680
about almost every other sector,
you know, healthcare, you know, 

336
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,520
things have changed dramatically
over the past 100 years. 

337
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,080
If I look at education 100 years
ago to now, it hasn't changed as

338
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,760
much as IT as other sectors. 
You know, it's still quite 

339
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,640
traditional in that sense. 
Yeah, we're still. 

340
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,920
In the industrial revolution 
mode, you know. 

341
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,640
We. 
Are you just think about it? 

342
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:09,280
Yeah. 
Well, OK. 

343
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,840
So you talk about the kind of 
the technological era or the 

344
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,000
digital era, I think was the 
word that you used. 

345
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,040
One of the challenges I 
certainly find is that trying to

346
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,200
kind of stay ahead of the the, 
the rapid advances in 

347
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,040
technology, especially if you're
in business in a technology 

348
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,680
business like you are, that's 
really hard to do and probably 

349
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,680
get harder the the kind of 
deeper you go. 

350
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,360
How? 
How do you stay ahead of all the

351
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,680
change that's happening in the 
technology space? 

352
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,000
You know, the famous Moore's law
that it will compound every 

353
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,360
year, right? 
I think you've got to take a 

354
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,600
step back from that in my 
opinion, because I, I was a bit,

355
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,720
a friend of mine who really ran,
ran at tech company. 

356
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,400
And you know, do you remember 
the old days? 

357
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,280
We had National Grid here and we
had all those plethora of 

358
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,920
learning management systems and 
everybody had a learning 

359
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,440
management system in the 
schools, right? 

360
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,320
How many of those providers 
exist very small because they 

361
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,000
could not keep up? 
And the price of technology and 

362
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,360
thing goes down and down and 
down, right? 

363
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:15,520
And the cost of creating goes 
more. 

364
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:16,840
And everybody comes up with new 
thing. 

365
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,520
And there's another new thing. 
And it, it, it's a constant 

366
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,160
battle. 
But also our human brains are 

367
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,560
not capable of growing that 
fast, right? 

368
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,400
And having technology. 
So for example, I've still, I've

369
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,080
got the Samsung 24. 
I don't know how to use it. 

370
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,360
I just know how to make a call 
on it, right? 

371
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,480
My brain doesn't compute. 
So I feel that we need to have 

372
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,160
the human side as a blend on it,
right? 

373
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,080
And, and then I think that you 
need to let the, the technology 

374
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,560
and the, the, the, the human 
side work together, right? 

375
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,320
Rather let technology run away. 
And this is what we're doing in 

376
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,880
our side. 
You know, we're not running away

377
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,440
with any new things coming up 
and saying, right, let's go, go,

378
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:00,640
go. 
Think. 

379
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,200
Even with the AI, what, what 
can, how can we use AI, right? 

380
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,920
We're not going to use it for 
teaching, but let's see you how 

381
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,280
can we use it for data 
collection? 

382
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,800
Let's see how we can use it for 
analysis. 

383
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,600
Let's see what we can do it for 
other things, right? 

384
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,880
OK, but let's us be in the 
control, not the technology. 

385
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,000
Human should be in control and 
that's my mantra. 

386
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,880
That makes sense. 
And just for balance, I should 

387
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,200
say I've got an Apple, not a 
Samsung as well. 

388
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,440
There you are, but. 
You know better than I do I 

389
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,840
can't use it well, I. 
I'm sure there'll be a debate 

390
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,600
about whether or not I can use 
mine as well. 

391
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,960
So you talked a bit about AI 
there and, you know, that's 

392
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,160
something that as a kind of 
leader of an organisation, you 

393
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,160
know, I spend quite a bit of 
time thinking about at the 

394
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,680
moment. 
You know, you know, the big 

395
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,320
question to AI or not to AI and 
if you do, in what areas what 

396
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,400
you, you kind of talked about AI
there as as an opportunity, I 

397
00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,880
think. 
Are there any kind of threats do

398
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,240
you think from from AI? 
Should we be worried about this 

399
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,480
in education? 
We can use, we're going to be 

400
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:11,000
using data AI for our data 
analysis and also allowing our 

401
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,520
teachers to have to interpret 
that OK and help them with that.

402
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,560
So we don't, we, we are looking 
at how teachers, students before

403
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,480
they fail, we are there to get 
pick them up. 

404
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,400
Where I get worried is when we 
are using AI for everything, 

405
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,840
right? 
AI is very good at looking at in

406
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,320
in health situations, looking at
a whole lot of data and coming 

407
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,240
out with simple thing, right? 
That's really good. 

408
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,280
But in the East, there is a big 
push for, oh, AI will do this, 

409
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,720
AI will do that. 
Don't worry about it. 

410
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,600
We'll have people, AI can take 
care of this particular job, 

411
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,880
right? 
And then I sit back and I think,

412
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,840
right, OK, has anybody in 
technology teams sat down and 

413
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,360
thought, what the hell are we 
going to do with these people 

414
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:55,240
who are going to be replaced? 
Right. 

415
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,240
In the West, we are OK. 
We've got a lot of greater good 

416
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:03,000
social services and safety net 
in developing countries. 

417
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,800
We don't have that. 
There'll be a lot of people who 

418
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,480
will be made redundant. 
They won't have any jobs. 

419
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,360
They won't have any way to put 
their foods on. 

420
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,640
But yes, there'll be other jobs 
there. 

421
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,680
But when you have moved a lot of
people out of the rural areas 

422
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,000
into urban areas for 
industrialization, they're 

423
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,080
really going to go back to their
homes. 

424
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,400
So you're talking about the fact
that the, the, the impact of AI 

425
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,600
will be felt differently by 
different parts of the world. 

426
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,920
That's a really, really 
interesting view. 

427
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,080
Let's talk about leadership. 
I was hoping we get a few kind 

428
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,720
of leadership gems and insights 
from you. 

429
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,640
What would you say, Dhruv, are 
the attributes of a really great

430
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,000
leader? 
For me, I, I, I think that 

431
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,920
picking a good team is really 
important and then let it get on

432
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,120
with it. 
And I think it's for me, I've 

433
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,880
had lots of discussions or 
robust discussions with my team 

434
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,440
and they really put me down when
they need to put me down. 

435
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:06,400
But that's great because that's 
what, listen, I don't have the 

436
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,960
monopoly on ideas. 
And my role now is to facilitate

437
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,680
people right, to come up and 
then make it happen. 

438
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,480
Because what, what you do need 
is giving that empowerment, but 

439
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:30,080
also have them coaching and 
having the, because I, my job 

440
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,640
has changed dramatically over 
the last 3-4 years. 

441
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,880
You know, where I used to be the
centre of the universe, now I'm 

442
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,840
one of the, you know, I'm out, 
right? 

443
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,120
But the centre of the universe 
is a team. 

444
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,320
So it's how you actually work 
with the team. 

445
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,080
Yes, you, you know, there are 
days when I'm feeling what the 

446
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,960
hell is this all about, right? 
But then something happens and 

447
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,680
I'm back up again. 
You know it. 

448
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,680
It is about understanding and 
also leading from the front to a

449
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,840
certain extent, right? 
But giving the young people and 

450
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,680
the people around you the 
ability to be best for 

451
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,080
themselves and they will be best
for you. 

452
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,560
Empowering other people, 
empowering other people, it's 

453
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,440
come across very, very clearly. 
So I think we're almost, almost 

454
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,640
at the end. 
But I just one final question 

455
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,280
for you, Dhruv. 
And in fact, before I get into 

456
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,280
the question, let me 
congratulate you on your EPM 

457
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,320
honorary fellowship that you 
received earlier this year. 

458
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,080
And my final question kind of 
relates to that is I wanted to 

459
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,960
ask when you found out that you 
were going to have this honour, 

460
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,520
what was what was your reaction 
and where were you at the time? 

461
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,640
Well. 
I was, where was, I was in 

462
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,840
Stockton when I got it and I 
thought, right, I think 

463
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,920
somebody's pulling my chain, 
right. 

464
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,640
I, I don't, I never have had any
awards like this. 

465
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,400
And I thought, wow. 
And then, you know, really, you 

466
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,240
know, it was the real moment. 
Is that really true? 

467
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:00,960
Right. 
And that was great. 

468
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,960
And it was fantastic to be 
recognised by you guys, you 

469
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,480
know, I mean, that's awesome. 
So I was really happy about 

470
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,280
that, you know? 
Fantastic. 

471
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,320
Well, we're, we're we're blessed
to have you. 

472
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,800
And you know, I'm, I'm sure lots
of people listening to this will

473
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,000
will want to reach out and find 
out more about it. 

474
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,000
So thanks very much, Drew for 
joining us and to everybody 

475
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,640
who's listening or watching as 
well. 

476
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,480
We'll be back in a couple of 
weeks, but in the meantime, if 

477
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,280
you've got any comments or 
feedback, you can always e-mail 

478
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,280
us at 
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.

479
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,920
Or if you're a Spotify, you can 
leave a comment directly in the 

480
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,240
app. 
So that's it for this episode. 

481
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,880
I'll see you next time. 
Thank you, Drew. 

482
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,720
Thanks. 
Adam, thank you very much and 

483
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:43,520
thanks for having me.