Welcome to the OPM podcast. OPM is the childhood body for
the project profession. My name is Emma divita and I'm
the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host
in the hot seat. Today with me Zany hair sign,
the project management brains behind the fabulously
successful, Commonwealth Games and Birmingham.
This summer. The games were filled with color
and energy, and were billed as the most sustainable, and
diverse games ever. But what was it like to pull off
this huge undertaking and will the city of Birmingham, be able
to Capitalize on its Legacy. Annie, welcome.
I'm delighted to have you here today.
Brilliant. Thank you.
I'm a delighted to be, it's great to be online with you
before we get into the games, I thought it'd be easier.
If you could give us a bit of background on your career and
how you actually got into project management if you don't
mind. Yes, certainly.
So I originally studied electrical engineering at the
University of Cambridge and and as part of that, I spotted a
couple of guys that were working in the Army on a sponsor
Arrangement, which look quite appealing getting involved with.
So combining the engineering with sports and eventually
training. So I was lucky enough to get an
army cadetship, which then meant I spent six years with the re me
in the British Army and sort of traveling the world so to speak.
But on a number of number of different engagements and then,
I was, I did that for six years and at the end of that, really
sort of thought. Okay, what do I want to go to
now and look to combining two? Technology management
consultancy with project management, and I ended up with
a small consultancy that did exactly that based in Guildford.
And that was really the introduction to project
management for me. From there I stayed in Guilford
or with that company for nearly 15 years.
We were taken over as part of that, moved back to Cambridge
more into sort of consultancy and operations.
And then from there sort of took a sideways step into sports.
Project management. And from there eventually ended
up in Birmingham. Clothes, keep what you enjoy
about project management. What is it that kind of engages
you about it? I think for me it's I really
enjoy having that oversight from sort of start to finish or even
from the initial concept talking to a client understanding what
they want to do and then putting a project together and seeing it
through or leading it through to completion that.
That for me, the entirety of that visibility is is
fundamental, but at the same time I've been Been involved in
so many different projects, different sectors, different
industry Industries. And that variety is absolutely
fascinating and I could never have imagined when I left the
army that I would have been involved in the different
projects. I have over the last 20 years.
Okay? So, and so, you're well, not
your current role. We'll talk about that later, but
your role at Birmingham games. How did you get involved with
that and why did you want that particular role?
So, prior to the game. So, in late 2019, I'd spent a
couple of years with British rowing looking after their
technology projects. I saw the opportunity and
Birmingham, come up as director of program, management and
integrated planning. And I simply put an application
in on spec, I had I had been involved in a number of games,
so probably the most significant one obviously being London.
I've been involved in hockey and Technical officiating there.
And so my interest and passion for these large multi-sport
games was just kind of was growing with each and every
game. So I've been to, I've been with
Glasgow Commonwealth Games there, I've been out the
Invictus games in Sydney and 2018 so the opportunity to
combine my career which essentially is how I saw it with
my passion was something that I really I really couldn't miss
and so as I say I put the application in and then very
quickly I found myself in Birmingham and late, twenty
twenty nineteen in the role as director taking over the program
management for the organizing committee.
Okay? So in that role, what were your
what did you set out to achieve and looking back, do you feel as
though you did achieve them? So I think it initially this was
this was a big step into program management, but at the same
time, I was very passionate about being involved in the
games and a part of that was almost like this games was going
on. I wanted to be a part of it.
I want to be able to contribute to it and to bring my corporate
skills and sort of the experience from the different
environments that I've worked in.
I really felt very passionate about being able to do that with
with the team there in Birmingham.
And the role was, it was not only about sort of leading
program management within the organizing committee, which
starts out of it as a very small organization.
So, when I joined, there are probably about 80 or 90 people
through to when we deliver the games close to 2,000.
So it is a very changing organization.
You have to keep a pace with that, but in parallel to it,
it's also working with all the partners, all the stakeholders
that are involved in the games and as, as you, Well imagine
there are many people that are involved and even more people
that want to be involved. So had a key role in sort of
that stakeholder management as well and tracking the
development, the progress of a number of different programs
towards delivery earlier this year.
And I think Looking Back Now end of July was little bit frantic,
but by the end, well by the 10th of August, when we finished the
games, It was absolutely incredible.
What happened in Birmingham and I don't think we could have
helped have asked for anymore. We had hoped and in my mind, it,
I thought it would be great to create what we did in London and
recreate that in Birmingham. And I do genuinely think that we
achieve that ten years on almost to the day, which is absolutely
incredible. What are you most proud of?
I simply just being a part of it, I think it it all comes
together against time and I spent two and a half years
planning thinking working through various different
scenarios, working with the team's thinking about some of
the big risks as part of program management.
What if this happens? What if that happens?
It was fair to say that some of those risks did materialize but
actually to come out the other side and then feel the we had
covered all of those risks and a It didn't materialize.
And we've got appropriate plans mitigation in place to deal with
them, should they have a risk? And that was a real sense.
Sense of achievement for me. Okay?
Me it's inevitable, I'm going to ask you what those risks were
low and also what were the biggest challenges that you
faced? And how did you overcome them?
Well to share a little secret on the inside when I arrived in
December, 2019, we had quite a long risk register already and
there was one on there that said how to deal with the event of a
pandemic. And I remember looking at that
and going okay, well, well, we're, you know, we're just park
that this was in December, 2019. It's fair to say that by
February 20 20, I was revisiting the risk by just giving out
exactly what had been written. Probably two years earlier.
In a very generic kind of way. And then obviously 3 March that
became very real and I remember the day vividly because we we
said, we would do a test with the organizing committee around,
how we would handle working at home to.
We did that on the 16th of March, and we never went back
into the office until the pandemic was over.
So it was a real really quick learning curve and a quick
introduction to very rapid rapid risk.
Judgment with regards to that. So that was, that was the
biggest impact on the program. And needless to say that roll
through all the way until the games, despite the fact that we
were back in the office, we were working.
But it was the effect on our suppliers on our volunteers on
the medical team. It was just so wide wide spread
that we could never let go of what's the impact of covid.
And it's fair to say that was not something that was on my
radar in, in December, 2019, when I took the job, I can't
help but think that you're training in the military and as
an officer you must have drawn on that for this particular
scenario. Am I correct in thinking that
Yes. Hugely I think the Army and
certainly the training. I did it.
Sometimes he's very good at kind of putting you in stressful
situations and throwing a lot of things at you.
And so that was, it's that sort of Stress Management crisis
Management in that kind of environment was a great
training. And I think sort of building on
that you just then become or you build into your skill set, the
ability to prioritize things and they were What actually is
dealing with? And the Army has a particular
approach to leadership probably based on the idea of servant
leadership how much does that influence your leadership style?
Very much. So I remember, again, the
mozzarella salad was served to lie and that was the way that we
were, we were trained and sort of all the exercises we did
there. And I think that certainly is a
part of my leadership style in terms of really working really
closely with the team, almost sort of pulling up alongside
them understanding, what their challenges are, what their
issues are, and then helping them to work through those
challenges. I think one of the impressive
things about the games that was its diversity in sustainability.
Could you tell us a bit more about that?
And it, and whether that was informed, by the, particularly
short amount of planning time. You had more Birmingham had for
the games because it did step in for Durbin.
So you had less time than usual. Yeah, I know that was a really
interesting challenge. So the read set out, I think we
had, they had the team had four and a half years from when it
was awarded, which has, as you rightly say, is much shorter
than we would normally normally plan for and then on top of
that. So we're playing a little bit of
catch-up but on top of that we then set some really ambitious
sustainability and diversity targets and also sort of
thinking about what does that mean for Birmingham.
And I think burning was very unique in the makeup.
Of the city and the region that we had to, we had to build on
that. And so that's what the games had
to be about. It had to be the games for
everyone. And so, as a part of that, we
had, we set some really ambitious, strategic objectives,
which it is fair to say, through covid and through working
remotely, then became really challenging because that changed
the whole Dynamics around how we're preparing for the games
and how ultimately, we're going to deliver the games.
But I'm delighted to say that that Again looking back we
achieve those objectives and we really did ensure that
Birmingham was the games for everyone and that everybody can
be involved and we hit those sustainability and those
diversity diversity targets. Did you use a particular program
management approach to the Commonwealth Games?
I would say a very typically, it was probably a waterfall program
management approach, but at the same time as we get close to the
games, the whole, the whole dynamic of planning detail,
planning, and procurement, kind of changes as we move into our
Readiness and our operational phases.
And as a part of that, when you're going through that,
everything becomes a lot more agile.
And we have to the time lines, become a lot, a lot tighter, so
we're turning around. And turning around deliverables,
turning around actions a lot quicker.
So I think it's fair to say. We see that transition certainly
from a maybe a very standard waterfall approach through to a
much more agile way of working. Really curious to find out what
your Lessons Learned are from the project.
Not only in your kind of work capacity, but also personally,
what did you take from it? And what you bring to your
current role, I think the first thing for me in this this just
goes back to the really complex sort of environment.
The complex number of stakeholders that were involved
is making sure that everybody understands their roles and
responsibilities. And in particular in a, we were
coming into a city where there's established relationships
established, established partners, and we will leave the
city as the organizing committee with those Partners as well.
And they've got very established ways of working and it's almost
unpicking those and making sure that That everybody understands.
What does this mean during games time?
And I think if I had my time again, I would have spent more
time up front or when I arrived really unpicking that in more
detail and making sure that everybody understood what their
responsibilities would become games time.
I think the other thing for me and again this is part of a
complex project is the level of governance and assurance that
that we experienced was huge and I think it's that Asshole for
large large projects and large programs, but you have to be
really smart around how you manage that governance and that
surance and the audits the internal external audits the the
project reviews, everything that is being thrown at you.
So that so that actually, you put together a shed a schedule
of of what that governance. Looks like what those reviews
look like, so that you're not duplicating, you're not
burdening. The teams with asks in
triplicate Month in month out, and that we had to be really
smart about that around how we were reporting, and then also
how we were scheduling those, those reviews.
If you got any practical tips around those two things that
you'd pass on to other program leaders out there.
Practical tips, I would suggest it's around roles and
responsibilities. You have to get people around
the table early and simply get things mapped out.
Again, start with an Excel spreadsheet or whatever that
looks like and start mapping it out with a raci matrix, best way
to start those discussions and then obviously that leads on to
more detailed discussions with regards to the governance.
We what we tried to do was almost get a year's plan ahead
in terms of just what's the governance?
What meetings, what board meetings were audits, what other
maybe government, reviews are taking place so building a year,
ahead, calendar, and then sequencing the governance.
So that we're not having to duplicate reporting in different
forms. So, actually, if we need
approval, or if we need decisions, made that we can
quickly work up through those governance chains.
Okay, brilliant. And I want to ask if he what you
enjoyed most about working on Boeing.
Did you get to see any of the sporting action?
Did you get seals, you'll spawn on stage, I did there.
I think there are so many favorite moments and I was very
lucky. And and certainly with my hockey
background, the CEO. Ian Reed was very generous in
suggesting that maybe I attended a few of the hockey sections and
did some hosting. So I was very lucky I saw Both
of the hockey finals and then also similarly in a, in a
hosting role I was at the opening and closing ceremonies.
So whilst we didn't know about Ossie, we knew that something
very exciting was coming and to see that materialized than that,
that be delivered in the way that it was just fantastic.
It was just incredible. Could you give us an insight
into what it was like to be in Birmingham during those weeks?
Because yeah, I watch it on TV and there seems to be such a
buzz around it so much energy, so much color.
What was it like to be in the city during that time?
And actually, let's talk about Legacy.
How can Birmingham capitalize on on the games?
Yeah, I'll talk about the excitement building.
It was just incredible. Obviously, I was in the city
every day and we had a daily countdown and we saw the City
coming to life. So all of the all of the are all
of the graphics went up on some of the buildings.
The, the building Centenary Square was going up the clip
that the game's clock which was counting down was attracting
attention as well. And so it was just incredible
seeing all of these things activate as the Queen's baton
relay came into the city. That was another opportunity for
the city to really come together and crowds to start building.
But then actually during Names. Absolutely phenomenal.
We had no idea what was going to happen in the city center.
I'd love to say that we did, but when the ball was brought into
Centenary Square again, somewhat of a surprise to me.
But could you explain what the Bull is for some listeners who?
Perhaps didn't see it? Sorry, so there, the ball which
was used in the opening ceremony, which was one of the
is, obviously the key symbols of Birmingham, the Birmingham Bull
and this Huge. I think it was about 10 meter,
high bull been constructed and used in the opening ceremony and
and was a key part of it. We naively thought or I naively
thought that might be the end of the bull at least for a few
days. We're going to have a little bit
of a rest perhaps, but what actually happened was overnight
after the opening ceremony, the bull was moved and there are
there are videos sharing the ball driving down through the
streets of Birmingham into the city center.
About 3:00 in the morning and then so 6:00 for the morning
when I walk through the square it was just incredible to see it
there. And I'd like to think that I was
probably one of the first people to see it but people then came
into the city centre in their thousands to see the ball and to
see the live site and to visit the shop.
But they were in the city centre of Birmingham.
What did the game Steve Birmingham the city and actually
the region of West Midlands I think, I mean, a huge, a huge
amount. We talked about the Legacy for a
number of years and and looked at various different
opportunities. So if we look at the different
programs, I mean not only have we refurbished Alexander
Stadium, which is now a well recognized International
Athletics venue for future meets.
We've also got a brand new Olympic swimming pool in a
residential area in sand. Well, the throne Paul's being,
In somebody's absolutely incredible and that in its
legacy mode will be a full Suite of fitness center available to
the public of Sandwell and the local community, with various
programs running to really promote health and well-being in
that region with in Birmingham. And that's just, that's a couple
of the capital projects. But in addition to that, there
are various Legacy programs that are still running around
engaging youth, engaging schools making sure that they understand
what the common Keynes was all about but then taking that
forward and taking that Legacy forward.
So making sure that they understand the benefits of
health and well-being, but they are also going to access ability
to new skills. They've got access to new jobs.
So there's been a real focus on how do we really engage the
youth community and create opportunities for them?
Whether they be in sport or whether they be in in jobs and
skills and really leaving those skills with them.
And that, that not only sort of that, Not only was organized by
the organizing committee, but all the contractors that were
involved in the games had various programs that were
running to really encourage and embellish that promotion of
skills and jobs. Okay.
Thanks, you talk very much about the specifics of the Legacy.
I'm wondering at a kind of Vega level, just around the
perception of Birmingham as a city, both nationally and and
internationally has has the game's changed.
That has it given more confidence to the West Midlands
to project itself in a different way?
Definitely. Yes, I think without question
Birmingham has transformed and and talking to contacts, in
Birmingham, city council, they are so proud of what's happened
in terms of their. They would always say that
Birmingham was probably quite shy.
We knew that they knew that Birmingham had had things to be
proud of, but it's had this opportunity to speak to the
nation, to speak to the world, to Showcase everything that's
going on. And and now very much the light
is Is shining on Birmingham and in addition to that, we there's
been sort of business and tourism programs running as well
as part of the games. So, looking at, how do we bring
more businesses into Birmingham? How do we promote, what's going
on in Birmingham to International businesses as
well? So that putting Birmingham on
the back has been absolutely fundamental part of the games
and I really do think that that we've taken significant strides
forward in terms of doing that. But what's made Birmingham
unique? As a host of Commonwealth Games,
and what do you think could be remembered for?
I think burning this certain unique in terms of the diversity
of the city and the region. And this was something that Sony
Commonwealth Games Federation picked up on when Birmingham was
being appointed. Because believe it or not, there
are probably representatives of the whole Commonwealth in
Birmingham, representative communities and making those
links. And fostering it has been a real
sort of pillar that we've been able to build on and really sort
of Help people to talk about the Commonwealth stories.
Talk about the history of the Commonwealth but also really
look forward around. How do we build on that
diversity and include all of those communities in everything
that's going on in Birmingham in the future?
It's clear, you've got a strong interest in sports, the road for
Cambridge. In you've been involved in
hockey what it sounds like for most of your life but I'd like
to ask you what has sport taught to you about working in teams.
What have you brought from that world into the world of program
management? I think, for me and I've
probably been involved in team sports in the main through
hockey and and Rowing. And I also did swimming but
that's maybe not team sports so much.
But just working in that environment, particularly in
rowing where when you were in an 8, if you don't get things in
sync with the rest of the crew, the boats going to go nowhere
and and it really is fundamental and that those kind of lessons,
but also then more, cerebrally how do you engage Age with the
team. How do you work as a team?
How do you bring the best of a team to an event to a
competition? And that equally applies in the
workplace. So looking at the team that I
had and again, everybody that was involved in games, probably
had some interest in sport, maybe not quite as much as me.
But really, you can really use that and build the team work in
a similar way and we had a number of sessions as part of
the organizing committee sort of looking at Team Dynamics,
looking at leadership. How do we bring that bring that
to the fore and what are the lessons learnt from sport?
At Association for project management.
We know your most important project is your career but as a
project manager, it's not always easy to make project me happen.
That's where our membership can help.
We offer exclusive training qualifications and learning
resources to keep your development on track.
Join our 35,000 members and become part of the only charted
membership body for the project profession.
Open up your future, but a p.m. Dot org.uk.
Allah, ask you Annie. If you have any practical tips
or pieces of advice, you've got the other project managers could
use in leading a team on managing a team.
What's worked for you particularly well, That's that's
a good question. I think in terms of sort of
leading the team is is being present, being engaging being
available to your team. You have to remember that all
your team members will be a different stages of their
journey of their of their experience in project
management. And this kind of then goes back
to getting to know your team getting to know them in the
workplace but also socially and understanding what makes them
tick. How do you get them involved?
How do you help them? How do you help them progress?
Because if the team is working together, the project will just
will work so much so much easy, more easily and it is, it's
around building, that's Energy. Building the energy in the team
that actually makes going to work to work on your project fun
and enjoyable and and people don't notice what they're doing
and I, you know, I'm in the game's world.
It's very easy because people are very passionate.
About delivering the games but it's then sort of taking though
transferring that into another environment and thinking okay.
How do we embolden the team to really work together and, and
really sort of synchronize and go forward?
I'm just wondering what the flip side is that, you know, when
you're dealing with a team, there's inevitably conflict
either within the team or with outside, stakeholders, have you
learned anything over the years that has proved helpful in
dealing with conflict in the right way and getting everyone
on board together? Yeah, absolutely time and time
again, no project will be without this and I think it is
very easy to put your head in the sand and hope it goes away.
But what you have that you have to be able to do is sit down and
have a conversation, understand what?
The conflict is, what is the issue and then work with the
individuals or work with the team, and that might mean a
number of different conversations but really sort of
making sure that people can then start.
Pulling in the same direction and sometimes that ultimately
does mean that you have to have some pretty difficult
conversations as well. But again, it's it's fundamental
to not shy away from those and Tackle them as early as
possible, because if you let them sit, the problem will only
get bigger. The conflict will only grow.
So you have to you have to nip them in the bud early.
And any advice on handling difficult conversations.
Again, it's don't be afraid of having the difficult
conversation. I've tried various techniques.
Some of work, some some haven't, what's worked?
It's easier said than done, right?
I mean, it's one of the hardest aspects of being a manager or a
leader. But what have you found works?
I think the key is that you have to be upfront and and I would
say don't beat around the bush but To getting getting the nuts
and bolts of where you want to go or what what needs to be
said. So that people understand
clearly what the situation is. And if there are decisions to be
made, they know what the landscape is and they can make
an informed decision. It is very easy to sort of hide
behind and and try and avoid using various words or putting
things in black and white and actually put it in
black-and-white early and people going to understand, Where they
where they stand? Okay, that's great.
He recently left your role at Birmingham which is always the
plan. Can you tell us a bit about the
role? You've just taken on what your
responsibilities are? What you think, the biggest
challenges will be and what you take from the Boeing and games
to this new role. Yeah, absolutely.
So I finished in Birmingham at the end of September, so that
was essentially the end of that games contract.
I'm now working for the Commonwealth Games Federation,
which is the overseeing body for all Commonwealth Games and that
includes the youth games, which has been rescheduled to next
year. So, he's games in Trinidad and
Tobago in 2023. I'm the Project Lead for the
Commonwealth Games, Federation and working with The new
organizing committee, which is it, which is located in Trinidad
and Tobago. So, the immediate challenge is,
how do I work with a team that is few thousand miles away?
And a few hours time difference, not having that sort of daily
eyes on perspective, around progress and and that will be
one of the biggest challenges over the next eight months as we
prepare for that. Okay, pretty.
And it just leads me to ask you for any career lessons that
you've thought about looking over the, your career, so far
that you would perhaps pass on to project managers, starting
out. Now, any secrets to your success
that you wished, you'd look new when you are first starting out.
Again, a good question, I would suggest.
So, When I, when I was younger, I was naturally quite shy, and I
think that that still stays with me, and I have to proactively
encourage myself to speak up to get my voice, heard to take the
opportunity to present. And I think it's again it's very
easy to sit in the background to be silent.
If you want to be noticed, if you want to progress, you have
to speak up. You have to be heard.
And that is maybe one of the key lessons to my Of and I like the
one that again certainly off the back of Birmingham is very close
to mind at the moment is just not to take things too seriously
and enjoy it and relax a little bit.
It's very easy in. In project management to get
tied up with reviews and governance and I talked about
that earlier but actually just relax a little bit and enjoy it
and enjoy the opportunity that you have with the project.
And my final, final question I promise is you're one of a kind
A few female leaders within program management within the
profession is, is that something that is impacted on your career?
And do you have any advice to women, younger, sort of female
professionals, who are planning their career or early on in
their career and you know, would appreciate some advice around
this. I think it's whether it's
impacted on me, but I've worked through a number of areas and
number of sectors so started off in engineering and then
electrical engineering which was very male dominant then worked
in the Army where the statistics were probably similar in terms
of the representation of women and then really sort of going
into a technology space. So I've spent a lot of time
working in a male-dominated environment and I'd like to
think that those environments have Prove significantly over
the last 25 years and the balance has changed, but in
terms of some aspiring for leadership positions.
Again, it goes back to what I said earlier, around needing to
speak up needing to be heard and establishing good relationships
across the teams that you're working with, and making sure
that people recognize you in the value that you're bringing this
to the team now. It would be my key word of
advice is just make sure that you are heard and playing
playing the role that you deserve to be playing within the
teams that you're working in but brilliant way to wrap up our
conversation. That's some really thoughtful.
Excellent advice thank you. And it just leaves me to say
thanks again for your time it's been brilliant to get a
behind-the-scenes, kind of view of something, such a public
event and just leaves me to say. Thank you and good luck in your
new role. Brilliant.
Thank you very much. Really enjoyed it and I thank
you. Thanks again, Tony for joining
us and to you for listening to this episode of the APM podcast.
Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to write a
review us. Wherever you get your podcast,
we'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments feedback and
suggestions by e-mailing us at OPM podcast, at think publishing
.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to
you by APM the chart of body for the project profession.
For more information on a p.m. visit a p.m. dot-org.
UK. UK.