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Welcome to the APM podcast, 
brought to you by the childhood 

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body for the project profession.
My name is Emma Devita, editor 

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of Project Journal and your 
host. 

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Today's episode was recorded 
live at APM's Women in Project 

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Management conference held in 
London in September, which 

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brought together over 700 
project professionals of all 

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career levels. 
Equality, diversity and 

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inclusion were high on the 
agenda and for this episode we 

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chose to focus on a session 
entitled Inclusive Leaders 

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Empower Inclusive Workplaces. 
This discussion brought together

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4 project professionals to 
discuss what inclusivity means 

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to them. 
Being an inclusive leader, they 

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said, can strengthen 
relationships with colleagues by

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creating a more supportive and 
collaborative workplace culture.

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But is it easier said than done?
And how do you bring people with

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you? 
The panel chair was Elizabeth 

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Nolan, head of legal project 
management at SACAS, and she was

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joined by three guests. 
Roslyn Unegu is delivery 

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director of non infrastructure 
at Thames Water. 

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She has LED transformational 
service improvement and delivery

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programmes in construction for 
over 23 years within the public,

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private and voluntary sectors. 
Sarah Utterson is a project 

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manager in the defence and 
engineering industry. 

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She began as a graduate Project 
manager in 2020 and has recently

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transitioned into a Deputy 
Programme Manager role at 

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Babcock International Group. 
Ali Parrish is a childhood 

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project professional who is 
currently Deputy Director of the

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Central Delivery Unit at the 
Ministry of Housing, Communities

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and Local Government, where she 
leads the project delivery 

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function and profession. 
We pick up the session with the 

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panel discussing their top three
things that make an inclusive 

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workplace before moving on to an
audience Q&A. 

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Inclusive Employers, which is 
auk organisation offering 

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membership, training and 
consultancy for employers, 

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defines an inclusive workplace 
as the culture in which the mix 

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of people can come to work, feel
comfortable and confident to be 

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themselves, and work in a way 
that suits them and delivers 

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your business or service needs. 
Inclusion will ensure that 

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everyone feels valued and 
importantly, adds value. 

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So we asked our panel to share 
the top three things that make 

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an inclusive workplace. 
And I'm going to ask everyone 

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interns to explain a little bit 
more about them. 

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So Sarah, I'm going to start 
with you. 

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These are your top three 
inclusive language, 

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psychological safety and getting
to know your team and inclusive 

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team and building social 
activities. 

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So talk us through those what 
inclusive language? 

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What? 
What do you mean by that? 

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So when talk about inclusive 
language, I want to think about 

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what words they use firmly at 
work or infirmly with their 

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colleagues while having lunch 
breaks, tea breaks, whatever it 

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might be. 
And think about some of the 

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power that some of the words you
might use are. 

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And if you're not sure, educate 
yourselves. 

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One thing I'm really passionate 
about is that I think, 

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especially in my generation when
I grew up, words were thrown 

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around that are like insulting 
and can offend people quite 

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significantly depending on what 
words you're using. 

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So drawing attention to words 
that can affect people with 

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disabilities, such as using the 
words spastic moron, saying 

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things like always crippled by 
that joke are actually really 

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exclusionary because you're, 
you're not understanding the 

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full intent and exclusionary 
effect that has on people Also 

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using words that are misused. 
So things like crazy OCD, being 

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mental, those are harmful to 
those who suffer from mental 

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health issues and I want people 
to think about that. 

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Whilst you may see it as 
informal or you are using a more

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formal setting, be aware of 
those people around you and the 

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fact that those words are really
exclusionary. 

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And if you're not aware of maybe
some of the language you are 

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using, think about educating 
yourself. 

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There are so many articles out 
there on Forbes, Harvard 

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Business Review around 
exclusionary terminology and 

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even things. 
But things like sex is where is 

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bossy, sassy, feisty. 
Think about the effect that 

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might have on somebody if you 
are using, even if it's not 

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intended or not directly in in 
someone, think about the sort of

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unintended constant that might 
have and I want to just put in 

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there. 
Use of pronouns is also really 

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important. 
Lots of companies that will 

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allow you to add your pronouns 
to the end of your e-mail 

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signature use it help 
destigmatize these of correct 

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pronouns. 
And if you're not sure what 

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someone's pronouns are, ask. 
Educate yourself. 

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Make sure you are being 
inclusive in the language you're

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using. 
OK, thank you. 

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And that probably then leads us 
quite nicely into the second key

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key thing for you. 
So psychological safety and 

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getting to know your team, how 
can how does that sure isn't it 

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for you? 
I think there's a really simple 

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way to get to know your team and
understand what people do out, 

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sort of work, their hobbies, you
know what their favourite food 

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is, do they like start work 
early in the morning, finish 

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work late at night. 
But I think with that, there is 

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a much deeper level which we all
need to be aware of is people 

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need to be able to come to you 
as colleagues, leaders, 

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managers, mentors, whatever you 
might be to people in your team 

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or your project to ask for 
inclusive adjustments to their 

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working environment. 
And if you're not creating that 

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psychologically safe environment
where people do not feel safe to

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come and tell you maybe that 
they don't feel included or 

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they've seen or experienced 
exclusive behaviour, you need to

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be able to address as well. 
So I think I would just say 2 

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levels or get to know your team.
We get some who you're working 

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with, but also make sure the 
environment you're working 

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within a psychological safe to 
open up conversations around 

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exclusion and what people may 
need. 

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OK. 
And so leading on then from from

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that into into team, what does 
inclusive team building look 

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like? 
So this is something that I 

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think the more recent thing for 
me that I've actually really 

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guilt you off. 
I will suggest to my team, let's

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go to the pub after work. 
And it only hit me recently that

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not everyone drinks, not 
everyone wants to go to the pub 

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after work. 
I will suggest going to a brew 

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dog pub quiz and people might 
hate brew dog pub quiz. 

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And that even though may seem 
really silly, it's actually 

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really exclusionary behaviour 
because you're going to a very 

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specific place and very specific
night of the week to do a very 

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specific activity. 
And people may not feel 

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comfortable saying, well, I 
don't drink or I don't like pub 

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quizzies or Tuesday doesn't work
for me. 

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So all people think about is 
when you are suggesting social 

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activities, team building or 
even just suggesting something 

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after work or for your project 
team to get to know them better,

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make sure that what you're 
suggesting is inclusive of 

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everybody. 
Like Irene mentioned in her 

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speech this morning, you know, 
golf away days, my company has a

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golf away day, most people don't
play golf. 

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So I think thinking about those 
kind of things and whilst maybe 

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they don't seem exclusive, they 
can be and they are excluding 

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groups of people to taking part.
OK, wonderful. 

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Thank you, Joslyn. 
Here's your three. 

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Let's let's go through them. 
So an environmental trust, What 

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does that look like? 
Well, I first of all, it's 

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around the word inclusivity. 
It's an environment where 

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everyone feels comfortable about
being able to speak. 

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And it's an environment where 
people feel that their thoughts 

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and the diversity of it is 
encouraged and it is appreciated

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and valued. 
And that's really what it means 

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to to thrive in an inclusive 
workplace. 

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What we don't want to have is 
groupthink. 

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And when leaders, leaders should
strive really to avoid having 

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their thoughts, their views 
permeate through the, the, the 

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teams that they lead. 
And so having team members be 

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comfortable enough to share 
their views, even if they're 

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dissenting in an environment 
where people think, you know, my

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thoughts are valued, appreciated
and understood. 

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And more than anything seen for 
me, that creates and fosters an 

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environment of trust. 
OK. 

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And how does that also then 
interplay with an 

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accountability? 
It's to do with being able to 

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receive and accept feedback. 
The wonderful thing about trust 

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is comfort. 
You are comfortable in an 

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environment where you feel and 
you know that your thoughts, 

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ideas are both diverse and 
welcomed. 

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And that means as leaders and as
team members, you take 

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accountability for the things 
that you say. 

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And so the accountability 
element is fundamental in trying

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and fostering that environment 
where inclusivity is welcome. 

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So the terminal accountability 
in this context means as an 

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individual you are responsible 
for the things and the words 

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that you use and your actions, 
and it is about being able to do

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that without feeling a threat or
feeling discomfort in being able

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to do so. 
OK. 

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And it's part of that 
consideration of privilege. 

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It is, it is the, the, the whole
idea of privilege is about 

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understanding that in a group 
environment, some people have 

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more. 
And as leaders, is it really 

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important for you to understand 
that the diversity of the teams 

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that you lead means that some 
people will have more in terms 

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of power and influence, and some
people feel that they have less.

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And understanding that means 
that as a leader, you are very, 

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very acutely aware that you need
to ensure that those who have 

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more do not abuse those who have
less, and those who have less do

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not feel abused. 
And that for me, what's the that

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inclusivity? 
OK, Ali, let's move on to yours 

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then. 
So how do you know what makes 

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you resilient and, well, how, 
how do you figure that out? 

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I think I've been on a really 
long journey with this and I 

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think it matters in every 
profession actually that we 

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understand what our triggers are
for things that make us feel 

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stressed for make us feel unwell
and and learn over time, which I

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have. 
We honest. 

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I have been on a very long 
journey to know what, you know, 

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daily habits I need to have in 
place when I can feel myself 

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getting into a difficult 
position and also the support 

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networks that I need to have in 
place as well. 

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But it really matters in 
delivery because it's hard. 

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Delivery is hard and it doesn't 
matter. 

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There will never, a lot of 
people in my team will say, 

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actually there must be a place 
when you know, I'll be totally 

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on top of my work life balance. 
You'll never be on top of your 

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work life balance. 
Actually, the important thing is

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to really know how you want you 
as an individual want to make 

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that work for you. 
And when you know that it's not 

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operating. 
Because if we're not in a great 

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place, it means that actually we
don't feel, we don't respond to 

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the pressures of the delivery 
environment effectively. 

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I mean, it's the right thing to 
do anyway, but we don't respond 

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to the environment effectively. 
But also we're not in a place to

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bring ideas, to make great 
decisions, to move at pace. 

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So being healthy and well is 
really critical to just, you 

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know, the basic functioning of a
team and caring for people 

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around us, but also actually 
what makes our work successful. 

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OK, so it's important to to look
after ourselves and then 

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obviously your your second point
then to be kind and considerate 

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to others as well. 
Yeah, I think this is, this is 1

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when it boils down to it in, you
know, over the years we've 

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worked with a huge number of 
different people with different 

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needs and different experiences 
and different backgrounds. 

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And in the end, actually, I, 
I've kind of come to the 

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conclusion, whilst the words 
sound very floated, being kind 

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in particular in a corporate and
demanding environment is really 

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challenging. 
And actually taking time to get 

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to know all your colleagues, not
just the ones that you most 

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closely relate to, and 
understanding their individual 

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needs, supporting and that 
understanding what's going on in

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their lives as far as they want 
to share that is, is really 

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important in helping everyone be
able to feel included. 

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And picking up Sarah's point 
about how do you find the way to

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ensure you have, you know, team 
things that work for everybody 

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rather than just kind of a 
certain set of preferences. 

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But the reverse side of that is 
that sometimes we all come 

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across it. 
There are a whole host of 

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moments where we think other 
people's behaviours are not kind

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and considerate and 
disrespectful or not the 

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behaviours that we expect in 
work. 

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And it's very easy for that to 
then kind of boil a system of 

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like of antagonism. 
And actually what I found again 

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00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,760
over time is to think, hold on, 
what is going on? 

232
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,320
You have to believe in the 
decency of most human beings. 

233
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,160
What is going on to them that is
making them behave that way. 

234
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,360
And although you never really 
know what's happening unless you

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00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,880
really know someone very well, 
there's generally a sense of 

236
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,720
fear or frustration or kind of 
angst happening or something 

237
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,760
going on in someone's personal 
life that is enabling them to 

238
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,040
behave. 
And your response is different 

239
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,920
if you try and put put yourself 
in their position even when you 

240
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:33,880
think they're being 
unreasonable. 

241
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,360
And is that part of being a 
really good manager do you think

242
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,680
then? 
I think, well, I think it 

243
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,880
relates particularly outside it.
You know, it's much harder 

244
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,400
outside of your team environment
to have that conversation. 

245
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:43,840
You just have to put yourself in
other shoes. 

246
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,120
But I do think the inclusion 
comes down it's it's really 

247
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,280
important to know the team. 
It's really important that 

248
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,760
everybody feels like you've got 
each other's backs, whether as a

249
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,120
line manager or as a as a kind 
of just a team member, and that 

250
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,880
everyone feels safe and 
empowered to come to work and to

251
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,240
be able to bring their best 
selves. 

252
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,320
But, but again, the flip side of
that is it also means sometimes 

253
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,440
having difficult conversations 
and that, you know, we're not 

254
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,280
always always at our best. 
Sometimes our behaviours, 

255
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,320
sometimes the quality of our 
work isn't as great. 

256
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,080
And actually you have to say it 
because otherwise and you have 

257
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,480
to have a conversation about it 
because otherwise those things 

258
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,160
fester and other people realise 
and recognise that we're not 

259
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,640
necessarily treating everybody 
fairly as well. 

260
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,760
So these conversations are hard,
but you kind of have to strap 

261
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,760
your shoes on and kind of get 
get on with it. 

262
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,600
And just the last thing I would 
say in the reverse of that is 

263
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,160
that as a leader, you know, 
quite often you don't get it 

264
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,560
right. 
And actually fessing up to that 

265
00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:41,920
or taking the feedback, create 
an environment where people go, 

266
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,560
do you know what? 
I just didn't like the way that 

267
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:47,240
you did that and saying, you 
know, apologising, being open 

268
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,200
about that I think is not, 
again, not just the right thing 

269
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,080
to do, but buys a huge amount of
credibility and and trust from 

270
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:55,680
colleagues and from team members
as well. 

271
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,680
Absolutely no, I completely 
agree with that. 

272
00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:01,000
I think you, you, you've got to 
own it and let people know that.

273
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,920
So I'm, I'm conscious of time 
and I really want to get to the 

274
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,600
question. 
So I'll I'll, I'll, I'll go 

275
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,040
fairly quickly through, through 
mine. 

276
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,840
So for me, people feeling seen 
and heard. 

277
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,480
So this is just, this is about 
everyone. 

278
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,600
This is not just about the 
people at the top feeling like 

279
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,400
they're the ones who can set the
tone. 

280
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,080
You know, if you were at the the
session, the keynote first thing

281
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,520
this morning from Natalie, you 
will have heard this as well. 

282
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,080
You know, everyone needs to be 
considered when decisions are 

283
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,680
made and feel like they have 
been considered, you know, 

284
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,120
what's the impact going to be on
them. 

285
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,040
And this applies to to positive 
and negative things. 

286
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,520
So you know, when the business 
does well, everyone benefits, 

287
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,080
but make sure everyone benefits,
not just the people at the top. 

288
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,800
You know, when the business does
badly, though, everyone bears 

289
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,480
the bears the burden of that. 
Obviously those with the 

290
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,480
broadest shoulders are going to 
are going to bear more of it, 

291
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,840
but everyone needs to feel it 
because if it's really 

292
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,920
inclusive, it cuts it comes to 
everyone. 

293
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,520
Everyone should have a voice. 
Everyone should have a way of 

294
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,760
sharing their views. 
You know, whether, and that will

295
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,360
look different in every single 
company depending on the size, 

296
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,760
the, the, the sort of the 
workplace. 

297
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,760
So whether that's a manager, 
whether that's, you know, some, 

298
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,320
some anonymous feedback things 
that you can put in. 

299
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,400
But everyone should feel that 
they have a route by which they 

300
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,840
can provide some feedback, they 
can provide some input into, 

301
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,200
into the workplace that they're 
in. 

302
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,200
The second one for me is really,
really important. 

303
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,760
So communication, everything's, 
yeah, we must communicate. 

304
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,600
We must communicate. 
That shouldn't just be 

305
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,640
broadcasting. 
Comprehension is the goal of 

306
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,400
communication. 
So it's not about you just 

307
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,000
giving out a message. 
It's about how people receive 

308
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,040
that message. 
So it's, it should communication

309
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,760
should be open, it should be 
regular, but you also need to 

310
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,720
know that it's being heard and 
it's being understood. 

311
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,760
And that's where you come back 
to the feedback loop and you 

312
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,040
need to understand what's going 
on. 

313
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,040
You know, so it's not just a 
news post on an intranet. 

314
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,640
It's not just a firm wide 
e-mail. 

315
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,600
It's managers checking in with 
their teams, it's colleagues 

316
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,600
checking in with each other. 
You know, did you see this? 

317
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,160
How do you feel about it? 
What do we, what do we think is 

318
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,920
this, is this working for us? 
What do we think the impacts are

319
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,920
going to be? 
Because the people sending out 

320
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,760
those communications may just 
simply may not have thought of 

321
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,280
it. 
And it's not because they don't 

322
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,600
care, they just don't know. 
It's not on their radar. 

323
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,040
So it that that's really 
important. 

324
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,000
And finally then differences 
being recognised and celebrated.

325
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,360
So, you know, having a one team 
ethos, it might sound like a 

326
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,400
really inclusive idea, but 
actually it completely fails to 

327
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,160
recognise that people are 
fundamentally different. 

328
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,080
You know, everyone has got 
different wants and needs and 

329
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,120
true inclusivity should, should 
recognise that and it should 

330
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,600
embrace it to try and get the 
best out of everyone rather than

331
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,560
trying to make everyone fit into
one thing. 

332
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,560
So there you go. 
That's that's what that those 

333
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,160
are our kind of high level views
about what we think in terms of 

334
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,360
what inclusive workplaces look 
like and how we can make them. 

335
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,000
We're APM, the only chartered 
membership organisation for the 

336
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,320
project profession. 
When you become an APM member, 

337
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,880
you'll receive the resources and
support you need to make an 

338
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,320
impact, delivering better 
projects with better outcomes. 

339
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,840
Plus, you'll access exclusive 
training and benefits to support

340
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,160
your ongoing career development.
Find out how we can help you 

341
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,960
reach your potential by visiting
apm.org.uk. 

342
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,880
Because when projects succeed, 
society benefits. 

343
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,599
So we're going to start with a 
really key topic. 

344
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:14,800
We're going to start with 
Women's Health. 

345
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,119
So we had a couple of questions 
that that have that have come 

346
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,400
through on that. 
These these questions have been 

347
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:20,880
seen in advance. 
So we've had a a bit of an 

348
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,240
opportunity to think about 
these. 

349
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,280
The the ones where the 
panellists are really going to 

350
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,800
be on their toes are the ones 
that are coming through in the 

351
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,640
room. 
But OK, so we're going to start 

352
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,840
with a question in relation to, 
to, to, to menstruation. 

353
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,400
OK. 
So 50% of the population, women,

354
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,240
50% of the of the population are
likely to unless they're likely 

355
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:45,560
to because I appreciate it's not
everyone experience physical and

356
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,640
and emotional impacts of 
menstruation whilst they're in 

357
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,200
their working lives. 
You can't get away from it. 

358
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,240
It's becoming more talked about 
more these days. 

359
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,040
It's wonderful that people are 
prepared to, to, to talk about 

360
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,320
it. 
We had a question that said the 

361
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,320
fact that it is becoming more 
open to discussion, does that is

362
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,440
that going to put on virus? 
If I go into into a situation 

363
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,560
and I talk about the fact that I
suffer from from a condition or 

364
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,920
I really suffer when I get my 
period, is that going to put 

365
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,200
someone off? 
Do I need to just keep that 

366
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,040
quiet? 
Ali, I'm looking at you. 

367
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,320
So I'm going to start with you. 
What what do you think? 

368
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,040
Share your wisdom. 
Well, I have I I was really 

369
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,680
grateful to the people who asked
ask these questions because it 

370
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,600
made me think that it's still 
not a topic that we talk about 

371
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,520
enough in the workplace, even 
though it happens to an awful 

372
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,080
lot of us. 
I think the first thing I would 

373
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,400
say is that going back to my 
earlier point, I think it's 

374
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,120
really important to know your 
own body and your own own cycle 

375
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:42,760
and your own health. 
It's not just about 

376
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,320
menstruation. 
It's not just about how we 

377
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,160
bleed. 
Women's Health is a factor 

378
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,640
throughout the entirety of our 
careers and it affects us all at

379
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,440
different, different times. 
So you can kind of progress on 

380
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,040
to whether you have having a 
period, whether you want to be 

381
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:56,880
having a period, have you not 
having one because you're trying

382
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,600
to have a baby, whereas your 
period stopped. 

383
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,120
Are you on the process of them 
stopping? 

384
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,960
You know, it goes on for a 
really long time before you get 

385
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,640
into all the other kind of 
health challenges that that 

386
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,800
women face. 
So actually really understanding

387
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,160
your body and knowing how to 
manage it yourself and what that

388
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,200
means in terms of your workplace
I think is important. 

389
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,880
And then being able to have just
really sensible, honest 

390
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,800
conversations about it. 
Those can be private, but they 

391
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,000
can also be public as well. 
And I think the thing that I 

392
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000
have observed as I have become 
more ancient in times, I never 

393
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,480
thought it mattered to talk 
about it and I certainly didn't 

394
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,600
want to. 
But when I've been in positions 

395
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,160
where not so much to do with 
periods but to do with 

396
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,960
breastfeeding and trying to 
express in a highly male 

397
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,840
dominated workplace and having 
miscarriages, I had no choice 

398
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,960
apart from to talk about it. 
And what I found that was 

399
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,080
amazing about it, two things. 
First of all, it gave everyone 

400
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,960
else permission to talk about 
it, which was brilliant. 

401
00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,080
And secondly, the other 50% of 
the population also all know 

402
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,840
women who were all going through
the same thing too. 

403
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,080
So they completely understand as
well and actually were 

404
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,760
unbelievably supportive and 
helpful. 

405
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,080
And I think it gave me for the 
first time the conversation 

406
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,440
actually, this is just something
that we should just keep an open

407
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,080
dialogue about. 
Not everybody feels brave, but 

408
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,040
if you do feel brave enough to 
do it, it creates a better space

409
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,320
for others and actually changes 
come off the back of it. 

410
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,880
And some amazing people in my. 
Apartment through their lived 

411
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,800
experience, both men and women 
through their own lived 

412
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,560
experiences have changed 
policies about menstruation, 

413
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,480
about menopause and about baby 
loss in the last kind of 18 

414
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,520
months. 
But they kind of had to put 

415
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,160
themselves out there, but then 
we all followed and backed them 

416
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,880
up as well. 
And and I think that was really 

417
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,400
positive. 
So it's a bit of a tangent from 

418
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,720
your question, but it's because 
it. 

419
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,280
It. 
Kind of just. 

420
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:45,880
Appreciate that. 
Absolutely no. 

421
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,720
And I think that and that, and 
that helps because it, it covers

422
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,200
off a, a couple of other things,
I think. 

423
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,040
Ross, I wonder if I can ask you 
then in relation to one of the 

424
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,240
other questions that we 
received. 

425
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,440
So for those people who, who, 
who do want to be a bit more 

426
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,320
private about it, but still need
to talk to their, their, their, 

427
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,760
their managers, you know, what, 
as a, as a manager, what should 

428
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,840
the manager be doing in those 
circumstances? 

429
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,280
Because they don't necessarily 
want to then, you know, change a

430
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:11,880
policy because it's of of one 
that. 

431
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,560
But how, how can you as a 
manager support someone? 

432
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,240
You know, what sort of thing 
should you be doing if someone 

433
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,320
comes to you and says, I'm 
having these issues? 

434
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,320
A lot of us work in environments
where you find that your 

435
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,080
managers are men. 
So when you when you're when 

436
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,760
you're going through something 
particularly sensitive, whether 

437
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,120
it is to do with baby loss or it
is something to do with periods 

438
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,400
or you're having, for those of 
you who are either 

439
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,320
perimenopausal or menopausal, 
you have brain fog and something

440
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,720
happens and you're and you're in
a very difficult situation. 

441
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,120
What you would like to happen is
for your manager to have 

442
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,720
empathy, doesn't have to be 
going through the same thing, 

443
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,240
but you would expect an 
understanding and good leaders, 

444
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,120
and I emphasise good leadership,
good leaders care and they pay 

445
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,080
attention. 
And the question should really 

446
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,960
be how can I help? 
That should be the fundamental 

447
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,040
question that you asked. 
It's how can I help? 

448
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,480
I don't understand what you're 
going through for obvious 

449
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,120
reasons, but how can I help not?
Well, that's unfortunate. 

450
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,840
When you're going back to work, 
you know, that's not really the 

451
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,160
answer you want to want to get. 
And, and so you would expect 

452
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,760
that there is a, a significant 
level of sensitivity to wanting 

453
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,440
privacy because look, if I were 
a bloke and I had a prostate 

454
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,640
exam happening next day, I don't
want everyone to know about it. 

455
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,360
So I wouldn't expect you to 
advertise that either. 

456
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,880
So just being able to have 
empathy, putting yourself in the

457
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,800
other's shoes and knowing this 
is a particularly delicate 

458
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:46,160
situation and the best way to 
handle it is with empathy and 

459
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,160
sympathy. 
Thank you. 

460
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,880
I think that's, that's, that's a
really example of your answer. 

461
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,080
So I'm OK. 
Well, look, I'm going to move on

462
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,880
now to we've, we've had a series
of, of questions and we've had 

463
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,240
some come through on the app on 
this as well. 

464
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,000
So an, a topic I'm going to call
female stereotyping. 

465
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,720
You know, you walk into a room 
and someone asks you to, to get 

466
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,920
them a coffee, you sit down and,
and the expectation is if you're

467
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,480
the only woman in the room that 
you're going to be taking the 

468
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,960
notes, that sort of thing. 
So we've had a few questions 

469
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,640
around it and I think so 
constantly. 

470
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,840
Someone said they're they're in 
a meeting and the the meeting is

471
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,280
opened with morning gents. 
You know, what should you make 

472
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,000
it an issue? 
What you know, how do you feel 

473
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,400
about that? 
If you do want to raise it, how 

474
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,840
do you do it? 
What do you think, Sarah? 

475
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,080
So I think this has been nicely 
what I told about language in 

476
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,360
the in the first bit. 
If it something that bothers you

477
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,880
and you, it makes you feel 
uncomfortable, I never think 

478
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,440
raise it. 
I have beyond receiving end of 

479
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,400
lots of high dense emails, lots 
of high dense meetings. 

480
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,800
And I think the way to tackle it
is to is to raise it. 

481
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,960
And I think there's two ways to 
do that. 

482
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,920
There's the address it there and
then you dress it in the room 

483
00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,560
just in the e-mail. 
You see it when it happens or if

484
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,800
it's I see a repeat of defence. 
If you've not raised it the 

485
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,520
first time, it keeps happening 
and you become more 

486
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,280
uncomfortable because you've not
raised it the first time and 

487
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,160
it's happened again. 
Think about it. 

488
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,840
Think about what you want to do.
Think about maybe a plan. 

489
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,640
Speak to people. 
I think we've spoken already a 

490
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,240
lot this morning around 
allyship. 

491
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,240
Speak someone you trust and say,
oh, I'm thinking about 

492
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,560
uncomfortable about this. 
Keep in these emails and say hi 

493
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,840
gents, It's all men on the 
e-mail and then me makes you 

494
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,520
feel uncomfortable and and speak
to people because I guarantee 

495
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,800
that someone else will have 
either been in the receiving end

496
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,080
of something similar or a 
similar e-mail chain from 

497
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,840
somebody else, if not a meeting.
So you're comfortable raise it 

498
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,960
yourself, but if not, use 
allies, these people you trust. 

499
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,600
And I would obviously don't be 
afraid to raise it, escalate it 

500
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:43,760
because these things are 
important. 

501
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,200
And I think we're part of an 
inclusive workplace is if things

502
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,680
are important to you and you 
feel uncomfortable with things 

503
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,760
that are being said or done, you
should feel psychologically safe

504
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,640
enough to raise it. 
And if you don't, that's where 

505
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,960
you need to go and talk to 
people like HR or escalate it to

506
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,920
your managers. 
Excellent. 

507
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,120
Thank you. 
Well, this and we've had A and 

508
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,000
the top voted question that 
we've had coming on the app, I 

509
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,480
think really fits well within 
within this sort of thing as 

510
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,680
well. 
So have you ever called anyone 

511
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,120
out for exclusionary behaviours?
And if so, how did it go and 

512
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,440
what did you learn? 
Annie, I'll start with you. 

513
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:18,720
Yeah, I. 
Felt like that was going to be 

514
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,880
the answer. 
Again, I didn't used to because 

515
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,880
I didn't either I didn't notice 
or I didn't know that it was 

516
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,560
required. 
And I think picking U on Sarah's

517
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,000
point, I will quite often if I 
think something is is not really

518
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,800
right, I will. 
I would generally do it, have a 

519
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,080
quiet word with the 
relationships that I have, but I

520
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,880
also try and make sure that 
across A-Team, people always 

521
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,520
think that they can come and say
when there is a problem, which 

522
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,920
relates to all of our 
management, doesn't it? 

523
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,480
And, and you know, across 
everything that, that you should

524
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240
always be, always feel like 
there is someone you can go to 

525
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,760
who will be your ally and a 
sounding board, regardless of 

526
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,080
whether they're in your 
management chain. 

527
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,280
And quite often I do find people
going, I'm just struggling with 

528
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,240
this. 
And, and sometimes it is about 

529
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,480
having a safe place to be able 
to have a conversation about why

530
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,160
certain behaviours and certain 
activities are making people 

531
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,760
feel uncomfortable, that gives 
them more confidence in the 

532
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,560
environment. 
But also sometimes it's also 

533
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,680
saying, do you want me to have a
word? 

534
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,080
And being the one to do that 
with a different set of 

535
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,320
relationships than as well said 
earlier, a different set of 

536
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,720
power as well. 
And, and generally that goes 

537
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,640
quite well. 
I mean, every so often I get 

538
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,920
told I'm a bit countercultural 
or a bit chippy, but I kind of 

539
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,040
would rather be countercultural 
and chippy and, and like back 

540
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,320
people to feel safe and 
comfortable at work. 

541
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,120
And, and, and, and I think as I 
get more wrinkly and older, 

542
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:39,800
which I've now mentioned twice 
to you all. 

543
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,240
So clearly I've got an issue 
with this. 

544
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,040
I kind of I'm realising how much
responsibility we have to to 

545
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,120
back everybody in to make sure 
that they feel safe and to give 

546
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:49,640
a voice when they don't 
necessarily feel that they've 

547
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,280
got one themselves. 
Absolutely no. 

548
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600
I, I, I, I, I'd certainly echo 
that. 

549
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,960
First of all, I see no wrinkles,
but let me just be clear about 

550
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,400
that. 
But yeah, I, I, I work in law. 

551
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,480
We have a lot of junior 
associates, you know, and there 

552
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,440
will be some people who, who, 
who will they, they won't want 

553
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,120
to put their hand up. 
I know I didn't when I was a 

554
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:09,520
junior lawyer. 
I never wanted to put my hand 

555
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:10,920
up. 
But I was very fortunate that I 

556
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,360
had people around me that would 
speak up on my behalf and would 

557
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:17,120
usually come and ask me first 
and say, I thought, I've spotted

558
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,040
this. 
Do you want me to do something 

559
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,960
about it? 
But that was amazing for me 

560
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,320
because it, it meant for me that
I have. 

561
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,080
Then as I've gone through my 
career, I've started doing that 

562
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,080
for other people. 
I've started spotting things and

563
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,800
going, he looked a little bit 
uncomfortable in that situation.

564
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,520
Do you want to tell me about why
that was? 

565
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,520
And is there something I can do 
about it? 

566
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,080
Because they won't always want 
you to. 

567
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:39,000
But if they do want you to, as 
you say you can, you've like 

568
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,400
more likely to have those 
relationships. 

569
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,800
You can do something about it. 
And, but even even in a senior 

570
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,200
position, you know, there's 
always someone else up there, 

571
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:47,920
you know, what do you do about 
that? 

572
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,480
Because have you got an example 
for? 

573
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,760
Us. 
Oh gosh, I've got many. 

574
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,360
Pick one. 
I'll, I'll, I'll pick one. 

575
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,720
It's, it's an interesting one 
because I have found this 

576
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,800
example is about introversion 
actually. 

577
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:04,640
And it's a, it's a, it's a pet 
pet peeve of mine. 

578
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,400
There was a perception that 
people are introverted, are 

579
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,760
either quite quiet because 
they're incompetent, or they're 

580
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,000
quiet because they are, they 
lack skill. 

581
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,360
And so I have found listening to
people over the years that 

582
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:20,920
people tend to use this, this 
language or be dismissive of 

583
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,760
them in meetings. 
And I, I make a special point 

584
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,360
because I know that that a lot 
of introverts are quiet because 

585
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,640
they're busy analysing and 
playing back what they've, what 

586
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,120
they've heard. 
And so knowing that I always say

587
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,800
hi, Do you have, I know you've 
probably been thinking about 

588
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,280
this. 
Any thoughts and about but put 

589
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,680
it in a way that gives them the 
comfort to be able to speak up 

590
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,360
and air their views. 
And, and usually, and I'm no, 

591
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,000
no, no wallflower. 
I will go back and say to 

592
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,360
someone who's actually been on 
feasibly crass about the 

593
00:28:53,760 --> 00:29:00,000
comments and say you may want to
think about these types of 

594
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,120
courses because I think being 
able to understand the 

595
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,840
environment you're working and 
being able to pay attention is 

596
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,080
really important. 
And if you want to be a leader, 

597
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:10,280
I'll leave it hanging. 
I. 

598
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,120
Like that silence, silence is a 
very, very powerful tool. 

599
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,960
Not just the no comment answers 
the the actual silence as well. 

600
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,720
OK, I think so looking then at 
yeah, again, being a lot of us 

601
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,080
work and particularly in in 
project management because it 

602
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,320
tends to to a lot of the the 
roles are in in still very male 

603
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,400
dominated environment. 
So how there's a question we've 

604
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,840
got. 
How do you navigate different 

605
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,120
team cultures as part of 
different projects that are 

606
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,240
still very male culture 
dominated to ensure your 

607
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,200
projects are inclusive? 
So what are your thoughts on, on

608
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,240
that? 
How do you, how do you where 

609
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,000
you're where there's still, as 
you were saying, you know, 

610
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,960
you've got examples where you're
the only female in, in the role.

611
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,040
You know, how do you navigate 
that to make sure that you're 

612
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,200
not just becoming one of the 
boys? 

613
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,440
Yeah, that's super difficult 
because I think that is 

614
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,480
something I'm guilty of. 
So where I work we have 17 

615
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,800
delivery teams, 400 engineers, 
majority which are men, our 

616
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,800
whole X Co, our men, all the 
group managers are men. 

617
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,400
So these day I'm in meetings 
with just men and I, I am very 

618
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,360
guilty of going on lines of 
Chatmouth sport time of golf, 

619
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,680
rugby, anything I can think of 
going to what I did at the pub 

620
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,560
at the weekend to try and relate
to them. 

621
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,000
And I think when you're going to
these different teams and you're

622
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,880
trying to build relationships 
is, is don't force it. 

623
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,560
I think we spoke about imposter 
syndrome this morning and I 

624
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,240
think don't force it. 
If that is not a genuine hobby 

625
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,560
for you and that's when you 
genuinely do at the weekend, 

626
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,960
don't try to fill the gap. 
I think one thing we if we were 

627
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,800
really guilty of is filling the 
silence. 

628
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,680
And I think the ones with that 
you can then sort of mould into 

629
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:58,160
that more masculine, I guess 
themes, but don't fill the gap. 

630
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,960
You don't feel like you have to 
go and talk about your weekend 

631
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,640
if you don't want to. 
Don't think you have to go in 

632
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,960
and you know, know the latest 
football knowledge or whatever 

633
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,200
it might be just because they're
all men. 

634
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,200
Go in and feel comfortable that 
you can just be there. 

635
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,800
Don't think you have to keep 
speaking. 

636
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,680
Don't think you have to ask 
everyone a question. 

637
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,160
Just own your space. 
You're in the room for a reason.

638
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,600
Whatever you may be there for, 
you may be a different project, 

639
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,360
different teams. 
Own it. 

640
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,600
You should be there. 
Don't try and train yourself 

641
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,240
just because of the audience 
you're speaking to. 

642
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,080
Their stakeholder management 
obviously, which is a massive 

643
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,400
thing and obviously that's when 
you struggle with. 

644
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,280
That can be explored through 
obviously qualifications and 

645
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,600
experience and training, but 
that doesn't have to be changing

646
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,240
yourself absolutely for the 
project team or environment that

647
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,480
you're. 
Working in I think own your 

648
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,520
place is is is is is fantastic. 
Now that's that's that's 

649
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,240
definitely something and I think
you bring a different skill set 

650
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,320
as well. 
You you know, if you if you are,

651
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,920
you know, in the the the sole 
female in a in a room. 

652
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,000
But I think whatever, whatever 
you're, you're, you're bringing,

653
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,560
as you say, you just, you just 
need to, to be confident in 

654
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,280
that. 
Ali, in terms of then within 

655
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,240
the, the teams, how if you're, 
if you're seeing some, you know,

656
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,760
a, a, a bit of a disconnect 
there or, or, or something, how,

657
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,000
how do you manage it? 
How do you try and make sure 

658
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,160
that those teams that there is a
bit more balance across the 

659
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,000
team? 
How can you make that work? 

660
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,240
That's a really interesting 
question. 

661
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,000
I think it, I mean, it charms 
with both Sarah and and Ross's 

662
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,920
points. 
I think there's quite as a team 

663
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,920
leader, I think there's 
something really important about

664
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,000
helping people identify what 
their kind of core purpose and 

665
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,320
mission is within each team and 
to feel comfortable with that 

666
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,320
and to particularly notice when 
people are stepping outside, 

667
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,160
what is a natural comfort zone 
for who they are. 

668
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,920
Because as you were saying, 
Sarah, actually acting, owning, 

669
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,440
owning you and acting with 
integrity is really critical for

670
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,640
building credibility as well as 
just being the right thing for 

671
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,960
yourself. 
So I think support identifying 

672
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,360
when people are sort of stepping
outline because they think they 

673
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,400
might need to fit in more and 
and enabling them to feel 

674
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,960
supporting them to feel more 
confident in their own space, I 

675
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:04,680
think is important. 
But I also think there are, as 

676
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,920
Roz was saying, there are also, 
there is also a responsibility, 

677
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,360
say if you aren't chairing a 
meeting or you are leading a 

678
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,960
team to shake it up so that the 
common and established 

679
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,640
behaviours are not the ones that
necessarily dominate a 

680
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,800
conversation. 
So putting people into different

681
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,840
ways of operating and changing 
the dynamic of how you do a 

682
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,960
workshop or how you do a meeting
structure. 

683
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,360
So that what is, you know, tends
to be the case of, you know, 

684
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,520
this is how we get things done 
to put my alpha, you know, 

685
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,960
behaviours on. 
We'll do it in a different way 

686
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,720
and we'll spend 5 minutes 
thinking and writing stuff down 

687
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,200
so that you just change the 
dynamic of what the expected 

688
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,760
norm is as well. 
And again, that's the right 

689
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,400
thing to do for inclusivity, but
it's also makes you think 

690
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,000
differently in terms of 
projects, gets away from that 

691
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,800
massive risk of groupthink and 
kind of, you know, collective 

692
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,560
sense of we're all doing the 
right thing. 

693
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,640
You have to break the cycle. 
And that's another way that, you

694
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,920
know, I, I was trying to really 
think hard about my old 

695
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,240
colleagues in the university and
how they would respond to some 

696
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,280
of these conversations. 
They all would say they're super

697
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,040
supportive inclusion. 
But if you said we're going to 

698
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,159
change the way we do things 
because it's more inclusive, 

699
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,560
they would roll their eyes a 
little bit behind the scenes. 

700
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,679
But if you do it because it's a 
way of making sure that we are 

701
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:20,159
managing our stakeholders and 
delivering our work better, 

702
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,920
absolutely they'll be behind it 
and really engaged in the 

703
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,040
process. 
So there's ways of playing it 

704
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,400
too. 
Can I just just just just just 

705
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,040
just one, one thing, one of the 
challenges that that we find as 

706
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,520
you go through and just just 
looking at the audience here, 

707
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,000
that some of you are slight 
slightly younger and us. 

708
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,480
And, and so as you climb in your
career, perhaps you're just 

709
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,760
starting and, and, and you're, 
you're finding it challenging to

710
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,560
be able to raise your voice when
you are perhaps the only female 

711
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,920
in the room. 
And then someone says a quest, 

712
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,960
something, something obviously 
different, like, you know, 

713
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,040
making an assumption that you're
the one who's actually going to 

714
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,880
either going to do the admin, 
make the tea. 

715
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:03,400
My, my, my advice to, to in that
situation is, is really to own 

716
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,720
your voice. 
And even if you are the youngest

717
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,920
person in the room, you do have 
the strength of will to own your

718
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,000
voice. 
It's 2024, though. 

719
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,160
I am hoping that people, either 
from what you've heard today or 

720
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,160
as you progress in your careers,
that you actually have the the 

721
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,800
strength to say, this is not my 
job. 

722
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,000
Actually, if you'd like some 
tea, that's the kitchen over 

723
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,840
there. 
You can help yourself in a very 

724
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,640
polite way, but make the point. 
Thank you. 

725
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,200
We're in the fortunate position 
where we're, we're, we're on 

726
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,040
board with this, right? 
This is what we're, we're trying

727
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,200
to do. 
We're, we work hopefully within,

728
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,560
within companies that are, are 
encouraging us and empowering us

729
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,880
to do this. 
One of the questions that we've 

730
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,120
had come in, which I think is a 
really interesting 1 is how do 

731
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,480
you deal with a company that 
promotes inclusivity and 

732
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,920
diversity doesn't necessarily 
demonstrate. 

733
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,080
It. 
So yeah, what do we do in those 

734
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,880
circumstances? 
You're laughing. 

735
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,280
So I'm going to start with, I 
feel that you might have some 

736
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,280
some gems for us here. 
What do you do? 

737
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,720
Well what you don't do first of 
all is, is be antagonistic and 

738
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:15,360
militant about it because that 
is going to change anyones 

739
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,160
views. 
I think you start by by 

740
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:21,480
educating people. 
If if someone says something to 

741
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,560
you that is very clearly 
unsuitable, or if people do a 

742
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,960
lot of group think and you find 
that in teams that the leaders 

743
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,800
views is the dominating 1, then 
what I would suggest you do in 

744
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,400
that instance is gradually begin
the unfortunately difficult task

745
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,560
of having to breakdown those 
those barriers. 

746
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,760
And you start that by being an 
educator in the in the most 

747
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,920
collaborative way possible. 
You provide your case. 

748
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,840
This is why what you have said 
is unsuitable in this context. 

749
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,320
And here's the implication of 
your actions. 

750
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,800
And sometimes the reality is 
businesses never learn anything 

751
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,280
unless it's hitting the bottom 
line. 

752
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,040
So when you find that, you know,
for, for in some companies, and 

753
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,600
it happened in one of mine, my 
previous ones that is women were

754
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,640
leaving and they were leaving in
droves. 

755
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,520
And so the question was, oh, 
they look, they're all leaving, 

756
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,360
cry some more. 
And I'm thinking, well, that is 

757
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,840
not a fixed problem. 
You have to think about why are 

758
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,640
they leaving? 
Think about root causes. 

759
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,280
And that is what good leadership
is understanding root causes, 

760
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,160
because that is how you change 
things. 

761
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,520
And that is really what 
transformation means. 

762
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,520
Absolutely, Ali, do you want to 
add anything? 

763
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,120
Yeah, well, I completely agree 
with that as well. 

764
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,240
But what it was also making me 
think is that going back to the 

765
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:47,280
only points, that inclusion is 
all of our responsibilities as 

766
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,520
well. 
And actually there is something 

767
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,560
about taking on our own. 
If you can have a beautiful DNI 

768
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,440
strategy, but it doesn't feel 
like it feels like words, well, 

769
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,720
let's make it a reality. 
So on a really humble and 

770
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:04,800
day-to-day basis, let's ask 
people about their Eid 

771
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,720
experiences about Purim, as well
as what their plans are for 

772
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,080
Christmas. 
You know, that makes a 

773
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,080
difference. 
If there's been big things in 

774
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,960
the news that affect, you know, 
particular sections of our 

775
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,720
communities, well, let's ask how
they're actually feeling. 

776
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:19,800
What happens when you've got 
family in Gaza? 

777
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,960
What happens when when riots 
about Black Lives matters really

778
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,600
effects really kind of triggers 
kind of long, long standing 

779
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,680
challenges in people's life? 
What happens when your 

780
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,400
communities are the ones being 
vilified in local you can ask to

781
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,440
that regardless of what leaders 
are talking about in in society.

782
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,720
You can also join a staff 
network. 

783
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,400
If there isn't one set one up. 
And I think there there is quite

784
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,600
a lot of response. 
There is quite a lot you can do 

785
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,720
that also creates a movement 
within an organisation. 

786
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,920
And often things do happen from 
top down and you, we all have 

787
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,360
stories you can see of like the 
most fantastic visionary 

788
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,840
leaders, but there aren't that 
many extraordinary fantastic 

789
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,920
visionary inclusive leaders. 
Actually what makes an inclusive

790
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,840
organisation is also the daily 
actions that we take as well. 

791
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,280
And so I think that there is, I 
completely agree. 

792
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,600
I don't want anyone to take away
that. 

793
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,360
I don't think this is a 
leadership responsibility. 

794
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,120
I absolutely do. 
But an environment where it's 

795
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,320
just words, I think we can all 
take take actions as well that 

796
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,080
that change, the change that 
environment, change that kind of

797
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,840
sense of psychological safety 
that people feel just on our own

798
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,680
shoulders. 
Absolutely, Yeah, I, I, I 

799
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,800
completely agree with that. 
And I think that was, it was, it

800
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,120
was a point I was going to make 
is that it's, yeah, if, if we 

801
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,040
don't like something, we, I 
think it's incumbent on us to 

802
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,600
say, OK, well, what, what, what 
am I going to do about it? 

803
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,920
You know, I, I can sit there and
I can complain about the, the, 

804
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,320
the culture of the organisation 
and how, how terrible it is, but

805
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,400
am I trying to take any steps 
myself to, to influence change 

806
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,920
in that or to do something about
it? 

807
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,400
And I can do that regardless of,
of, of, of my stature within the

808
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,840
organisation, of my experience 
of, of, of my role. 

809
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,400
I need to get allies. 
I need to get influences. 

810
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,200
I need to, but I can do 
something about it. 

811
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,280
If I get to the point where do 
you know what, despite all of my

812
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,080
best efforts and those of, of, 
of, of the people around me, I 

813
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,760
simply can't, Well, then maybe 
this isn't the organisation for 

814
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,520
me. 
But I think it's incumbent on 

815
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,680
all of us to, to, as we've said,
own our place, own our voice, 

816
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,920
see what we can do about it. 
You know, be the change you want

817
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,360
to see. 
It's we, we can do something. 

818
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,160
And that's, again, it's showing,
it's developing those leadership

819
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:32,760
qualities. 
It's showing that we shouldn't 

820
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,560
just rely on our dark overlords 
to make sure that they're doing 

821
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:37,760
what they're supposed to be 
doing. 

822
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,200
OK, I think again, there's just,
there's a, there's another 

823
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,080
question. 
It's had an awful lot of, of 

824
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,920
votes. 
So I'm going to ask this one as 

825
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,400
well. 
And I think it's, it's, it's in 

826
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,920
a similar sort of vein for, for 
this. 

827
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,960
So it's, you know, as, as a 
parent, so you're offered a lot 

828
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,080
more flexibility. 
That's brilliant. 

829
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,440
But it only seems to go so far. 
You know, there's what happens 

830
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,280
if you know, you can, you can 
get flexibility as a, as a 

831
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,000
parent. 
But if in your circumstances, 

832
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,160
you don't have childcare, you 
can give me all the flexibility 

833
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,560
you want, but I can't 
necessarily use it. 

834
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,400
How do, how do we address 
something like that? 

835
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,560
That's again, Ali, I'm, I'm 
just, you're in my line of 

836
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,000
sight. 
I'm going to come to you first. 

837
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,560
Jump in. 
And then I'll follow up. 

838
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:25,880
Well, you're. 
Going to stop positions, but 

839
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,360
this is particularly important 
for me because I have a four 

840
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,120
year old so it's it's a 
difficult one and that and that 

841
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,800
is the reality. 
What do we do or what, what, how

842
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,560
do we do it? 
The, the, it's a tricky 1 

843
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,240
because there is no clear 
answer. 

844
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:50,680
I think what, what, what I would
suggest is again, raising it as 

845
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,600
a conversation, what can you as 
an individual do in return? 

846
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,520
And I think that's, that's what 
drives the extent of 

847
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,160
flexibility. 
It isn't, yes, we would like 

848
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,640
more, but I think it's more if I
can work from home because I 

849
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,560
don't have childcare and deliver
what I need to, then are you 

850
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,840
happy with that? 
But it's it's to think about 

851
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,520
out-of-the-box solutions to a 
very thorny problem. 

852
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,760
And that really is the best way 
to do it because there is no 

853
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,640
clear answer. 
You're going to have to be 

854
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,520
innovative in this context. 
Sarah, I'm going to, I'm going 

855
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,400
to ask you because I want to 
know as a, as, as a colleague, 

856
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,560
if you, you know, how do you 
feel? 

857
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:29,960
Because you were, you were 
talking earlier on about, you 

858
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,280
know, psychological safety, 
understanding your, your, your 

859
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,480
team and things. 
If you know that a colleague is,

860
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,040
is struggling with those sort of
issues, What, what can, what do 

861
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,360
you think you can do to, to 
support, you know, do you feel 

862
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,680
it's incumbent on you to, to try
and support around that or do 

863
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,800
you do you, is it more of a that
feels like a you problem? 

864
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,320
Yeah, I think it depends on what
you're relating to it with is 

865
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,640
with the person who is 
struggling, how well you know 

866
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,720
them well, how much you know 
about the situation and whether 

867
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,520
or not you want to be an ally. 
I think I guess is one of the 

868
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,480
things to ask. 
I mean, it can be things that 

869
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,080
are really simple is when they 
are working from home, if 

870
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,160
that's, you know, when the rest 
of you are in the office sending

871
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,320
them a team's message, giving 
them a call and seeing 

872
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,360
everything that are getting. 
I think with sort of hybrid 

873
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,560
working, we can also create 
exclusionary behaviours whereby 

874
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,400
you're all in the office, you 
all don't go and go to a meeting

875
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,120
in a room and you don't dial 
them in or vice versa. 

876
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,480
You all been dialling on teams 
and somebody sat in the office 

877
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,000
on their own because of 
childcare or caring 

878
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,480
responsibilities in general. 
And that makes every people 

879
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:32,880
depending on locations and where
they are. 

880
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,120
I think we all managers first of
all, have a responsibility to 

881
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,320
check up on that person's 
welfare, well-being, mental 

882
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,840
health and making sure they're 
getting support from our 

883
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,360
employee management perspective.
I think his colleagues who've 

884
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,200
got responsibility as well to 
check in on the person. 

885
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:48,560
Just say there's anything we can
do. 

886
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,440
You know, how are you getting on
how you feeling? 

887
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,080
You know, if you're going to 
come into this day or Thursday, 

888
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,720
I'll come in and see you in the 
office on Thursday. 

889
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:58,400
And you know, being flexible 
around your own, if you can be 

890
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,520
flexible around your, you know, 
I've not got kind of 

891
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,360
responsibility and I've not got 
children being flexible. 

892
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,400
So you can see that person and 
so that they're not the only 

893
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,920
person that comes into office on
Thursday. 

894
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,320
You can go in and be with them 
just to make them feel like they

895
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,760
are being seen and hired, even 
though really need a bit more 

896
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,080
flexibility. 
So I think this is a really 

897
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,720
interesting one. 
I was really inspired. 

898
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:18,720
Now I was just trying to wrap my
brains for the name of the 

899
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:20,560
author. 
There was a woman who used to 

900
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,320
work for Hillary Clinton when 
she was Secretary of State, so 

901
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,840
before she ran for president, 
and I think she was called Anne 

902
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,760
Marie Slaughter. 
And she wrote an article that 

903
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,000
was really controversial when 
Sheryl Sandberg was writing all 

904
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,440
stuff about women need to lean 
in. 

905
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,360
And she wrote an article that 
said why women can't have it 

906
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,120
all. 
And it was really controversial 

907
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,240
because but she was like 
flipping head of policy, but for

908
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:44,440
Hillary Clinton. 
So she was not in AI think, but 

909
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,040
she was like, my kids are 
teenagers. 

910
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,160
And actually I've decided I no 
longer to stay commuting to 

911
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,000
Washington. 
I'm going to go back to be a 

912
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,840
very high profile Dean in in in 
at Harvard. 

913
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,960
I think you'll have to check the
details. 

914
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,880
I'm sorry I didn't practise that
bit of the conversation. 

915
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,600
But I found that really 
interesting actually because as 

916
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,600
I have both come back to work 
myself as a mum, as I've been a 

917
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,840
step mum as well and supported 
lots of other people in their 

918
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,440
return. 
So well by going off to work, 

919
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,400
going off from Matt leave and 
then coming back from Matt 

920
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,360
leave. 
What you realise is that no 

921
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,720
family is the same. 
So everybody's needs a different

922
00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:21,880
every like, well, these people 
are doing it like this, so I 

923
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:22,880
should be able to do it like 
this. 

924
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,800
It's like no no no, because 
that's their family and also 

925
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,840
their individual choices about 
how they want to live their life

926
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,960
and I will. 
Whilst not accepting. 

927
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,560
I completely agree with this 
morning about imposter syndrome.

928
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,440
I moved to the civil service 
because I decided in the end 

929
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,920
that I still had ambitions to be
in senior roles but could not 

930
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,800
physically myself, both in my 
health and also the fact that I 

931
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,760
have an itinerant musician as a 
husband who's never around. 

932
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,200
I could not manage a really 
demanding job and a little one 

933
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,640
and be nice and, and like happy 
with the people that I love. 

934
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:01,240
But the civil service offers, 
really, really promotes job 

935
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:04,720
shares, flexible, working right 
up to the very top levels of 

936
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,280
government. 
And I thought, do you know what?

937
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,720
I think that's what I need 
during this time when Ives is at

938
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:11,880
home and she's growing up 
because the needs of your 

939
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,680
children change all the time. 
But now I'm there, I look at 

940
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,040
like really senior women in the 
civil service, which is amazing,

941
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,680
who have three children and 
work, you know, like in these 

942
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,840
top jobs, I'm like, Oh, I'm so 
inferior. 

943
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,640
But they are making individual 
choices about how they want to 

944
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,760
structure their family lives and
what their husbands do or what 

945
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,640
their, you know, as single mums,
what like their caring 

946
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,920
arrangements are and how their 
family backup is and how many 

947
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,520
times they, you know, how much 
of their salary they're prepared

948
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,840
to put into childcare or can put
into, you know, everyone makes 

949
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,320
their own choices and you just 
can't compare and contrast. 

950
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,360
You can only do what works for 
you and your your things and you

951
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,960
know, your career ambitions, you
know what stimulates you, what 

952
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,280
makes you happy. 
You know, how you want to look 

953
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,880
after and bring up your family. 
And I think again, you kind of 

954
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,360
have to dig deep, but just don't
try and model anybody else 

955
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,080
because find your own path. 
No, I think that's absolutely 

956
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,040
right. 
And I think you have to, yeah, 

957
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,080
look around, see see how others 
are doing it. 

958
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,280
But then exactly that find your 
own way for, you know, work out 

959
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,960
what works for you. 
And seeing I had literally a 

960
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,520
conversation last week with an 
associate who's just come back 

961
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,160
to work for maternity leave, 
who's who's, as she's 

962
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,280
transitioning back, she's in the
office two days a week and she's

963
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,800
sitting at her desk watching 
people leave at sort of four, 

964
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,560
half, four to go and pick up 
their kids and go, Oh God, 

965
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,200
should I be doing that? 
Should I be doing that so that I

966
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:25,440
can go? 
But then I haven't finished what

967
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:26,600
I'm doing, but then what 
happens? 

968
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,720
Oh, and I just had to be say to 
her, just just breathe. 

969
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,040
And what one day a week, then 
you work later and yes, you miss

970
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,680
bedtime, but you know what? 
You get back and you're there 

971
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,200
for your husband and you spend 
the time with him and you're not

972
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,160
getting back 10 minutes before 
with your hair on fire, 

973
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,240
disrupting everything he's put 
in place, feeling guilty for 

974
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:45,920
this, guilty for that. 
Like you, she's like, I can do 

975
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,680
that yes, we can do that. 
They discuss it, agree it, but 

976
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,000
absolutely you figure out what 
works for you and and I think 

977
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,280
that's that's absolutely right 
There's. 

978
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,440
Just one thing I was going to 
add as well, which I think is 

979
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,640
also, it's very easy when you 
when when children are little to

980
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,440
think that it lasts forever. 
It really doesn't. 

981
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,600
The phases move really quickly, 
but also the needs change too. 

982
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:06,800
So you get a different 
intensity. 

983
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,960
And actually teenagers and 
students almost need more 

984
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,760
support. 
It's more emotional support, 

985
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,160
more brain power than the 
physical demanding things of 

986
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,200
little kids. 
And that's really important to 

987
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,640
think through in the arc of of 
how you work as well. 

988
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:20,680
Absolutely right. 
I am conscious. 

989
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,520
We've only, we've not got too 
long left. 

990
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:27,240
So we are going to push through 
the the final kind of topic area

991
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,840
that I wanted to to, to cover 
was inclusion of difference and 

992
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,200
anxiety because we've had a few 
questions coming up about 

993
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,960
anxiety. 
So if you've experienced social 

994
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,240
anxiety at work now, how do you 
know how to combat it so that it

995
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:45,560
doesn't work, it doesn't impact 
on your or your work and your 

996
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,320
and your progression. 
And I know that you were you 

997
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,040
were keen to address this one. 
Yeah, so I think first of all, 

998
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,720
what I want to say is anxiety is
completely normal. 

999
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,160
Social anxiety is completely 
normal. 

1000
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:55,960
And I think if it's something 
you said from at work, you're 

1001
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,000
definitely not alone. 
For those who don't know, know 

1002
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,880
particularly well, I really hate
networking. 

1003
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,200
I find the anxiety going to 
networking events absolutely 

1004
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:04,920
horrendous. 
I hate most people I don't know,

1005
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,240
speaking to them about things 
that my work, my life, what I 

1006
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:09,880
do, I find it really 
uncomfortable. 

1007
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:14,160
So I don't just think that 
people don't suffer for a 

1008
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:15,720
minute, it's just you because 
that's not the case. 

1009
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:17,200
And I think the more you speak 
to people, you realise that 

1010
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,880
everyone's also from some form 
of anxiety in work or outside of

1011
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,600
work. 
I think the way to combat it is 

1012
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,080
being open about it because I 
think one thing anxiety is 

1013
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,560
really, really good at, and I 
serve from anxiety quite bad the

1014
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,320
outside of work as well is if 
you don't talk about it, people 

1015
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,760
don't know for that as we all 
can't help you. 

1016
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,600
And also anxiety is self 
deprecating because you keep 

1017
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,440
telling yourself and it keeps 
going down during a circle. 

1018
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,160
And the minute you put that out 
there into the ether or the 

1019
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,120
matrix and you say I hate 
networking and I really don't 

1020
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,440
like it because of the anxiety I
get from it. 

1021
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,520
Everyone goes on me too or 
you're like, oh that's really 

1022
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:51,880
mad. 
I was at a networking event last

1023
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,760
night and it actually went OK. 
And you start to normalise what 

1024
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,520
that thought is in your head. 
And I think combating it at work

1025
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:03,160
is speaking to mentors, coaches,
managers, colleagues around 

1026
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,440
situations you find that it 
makes you anxious or triggers 

1027
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:07,800
you. 
That could be public speaking. 

1028
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,040
It could be talking to a really 
particular group of people, or 

1029
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,000
it could be things like 
networking or or more general 

1030
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,440
anxiety. 
If you don't feel comfortable 

1031
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,080
speaking to your manager, be a 
colleague, trusted ally, or 

1032
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,720
alternatively, find a coach, 
find a mentor. 

1033
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,080
I mean, you can talk to to work 
overcome and work through that 

1034
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,200
as an issue. 
The one thing I found it really 

1035
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,480
has a really practical type is 
writing it down. 

1036
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,280
And anxiety again is really good
at like taking over your 

1037
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,680
negative thoughts, Writing down 
why you feel anxious about 

1038
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,400
talking at work, getting on the 
tube, whatever it might be, 

1039
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,320
writing it down and trying to 
think, why do I feel anxious 

1040
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,280
around it? 
Why am I anxious? 

1041
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,880
Why am I not anxious? 
The fours and against and help 

1042
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,960
rationalise it and be open 
people at work. 

1043
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:51,640
Because the chances are you'll 
say to me on your team and be 

1044
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,000
anxious about this and they'll 
go, well, God, me too. 

1045
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:55,880
And then you can go to 
networking events together. 

1046
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,440
So if you don't tell people, 
they can't help you and they 

1047
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,480
can't help you make inclusive 
adjustments at work. 

1048
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,040
So be open if you can find 
people you trust, and if there's

1049
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,120
people at work you don't trust 
and you suffer from anxiety, 

1050
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,840
there's some people in this room
who I'm sure will have suffered 

1051
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,120
from something similar. 
Reach out to your wider network.

1052
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,520
Don't interrupt people you work 
with to help you through any 

1053
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,720
issues you've got. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

1054
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:20,080
But I think you're understanding
what your triggers are, working 

1055
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,440
that out and then being able to 
yeah, to, to sort of identify 

1056
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,040
them and, and work out ways to, 
to deal with them. 

1057
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,240
I'm going to finish with just 
with one final question because 

1058
00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:30,480
I want to finish on, on a, on a 
positive note. 

1059
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,080
But there's been so much good 
stuff here. 

1060
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,480
So we talked earlier on about 
sort of sort of social 

1061
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:36,960
activities and team building and
things. 

1062
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,880
And again, we've heard all about
the golf course and what have 

1063
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,200
you. 
What's give us, give a, give me 

1064
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:46,240
one example of a team activity 
that is not drinking golf or 

1065
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:47,640
what have you. 
What's an inclusive team 

1066
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,720
activity will will go down the 
line. 

1067
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,440
So for, for, for, for us 
recently at my firm, we had a we

1068
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,560
had a firm summer party. 
We did a treasure hunt through 

1069
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,600
London to get to, to the venue. 
Everyone got split into teams. 

1070
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,760
Literally just by you walk into 
the room, you're given a number,

1071
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,520
you get a team, you've got the 
instructions, you go on the 

1072
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:04,800
treasure hunt, you get to the 
venue. 

1073
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,640
It was, it was very good fun. 
So that was that was our one 

1074
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,400
Sarah an an inclusive activity 
that isn't drink or golf. 

1075
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,000
So I think there's no lots of 
fun workplace activities that 

1076
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,080
are now like out on the High 
Street. 

1077
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,240
I want to say that makes sound 
really old and but things like 

1078
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,720
things called like flight club, 
there's lots of like games, 

1079
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,000
There's lots of places like Lane
seven, I think it's called. 

1080
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,280
It has a range of things like 
bowling, shuffleboard, all those

1081
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:32,760
sort of things. 
And you can go and pick whatever

1082
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,800
works for you. 
Of course, games, some people, 

1083
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,840
especially those who are very 
uncomfortable with small talk, 

1084
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,360
just put everyone in the in the 
game room. 

1085
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,400
Those who like loud, vicious 
games have at it. 

1086
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,640
Those who like quieter games 
have at it. 

1087
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,920
Everyone was in just bliss all 
around it. 

1088
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,520
And that's completely, no 
completely out-of-the-box and 

1089
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,200
people, everyone enjoyed it. 
Brilliant. 

1090
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:02,440
OK, Harry, finish this off. 
I hate games and quizzes and I'm

1091
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,240
obviously really bad at the fun 
super work. 

1092
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:06,720
I always have to nominate other 
people because my fun thing is 

1093
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:10,040
going to work. 
However, what I think actually 

1094
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,400
is really good is, is picking 
different things all the time. 

1095
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,840
So like, we've definitely done 
treasure hunts, we've definitely

1096
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,120
done games, we've been to art 
galleries and forced people to 

1097
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,240
walk around and look at the art 
whilst having a conversation. 

1098
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:21,960
We've also done things like 
sporting activities as well, 

1099
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,520
making sure that those who 
physically are not able are 

1100
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,640
still able to do it. 
So if all the time you're 

1101
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:28,840
thinking of different ways that 
different people will feel 

1102
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:30,760
comfortable and different people
will stretch themselves, that's 

1103
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:32,440
the good thing. 
But don't ask me to plan 

1104
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,520
anything fun. 
Fair enough, fair enough. 

1105
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,240
Thanks for listening to this 
episode of the APM Podcast. 

1106
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,120
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1107
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,240
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1108
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:51,640
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1109
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,920
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1110
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,840
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00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,800
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1112
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,520
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1113
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,520
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1114
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:13,480
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1115
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,000
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1116
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,760
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1117
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:20,720
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