Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
the editor of Project APM's Cause V Journal and your host.
In this podcast we're going to find out all about project
controls. I'm asking Paul Kidston and
Carolyn Browning everything there is to know about this
essential part of project management and who better to
ask? Paul, an engineer, is a former
director of Project Controls working on projects such as the
Remodels, Smithfield's meat market in London.
Carolyn is the Transformation programme manager at online
business Flutter Entertainment. Both are co-authors, along with
others of the new APM book Project Controls in the 21st
Century, available through the APM website.
Listen on to find out how a project controller should
actually be called the Truth Tellers, and how you need to
have both an eye for the technical details of a project,
but also be able to step back and join the strategic dots.
But what really, really matters is the ability to be adept at
the people side of things like communicating well, problem
solving, and being a leader who creates the best kind of project
culture. They give valuable lessons for
all. So let's dive straight in.
Welcome both of you to the APM Podcast.
Thank you so much for sparing the time to talk to us today.
Why don't we start at the beginning?
Let's get back to the fundamentals and ask what is
project controls and how does it differ from project management?
It depends. People have such different views
about what project management is and and then it is genuinely
different in different organisations.
So it'll depend where you are. Some, some will see the skill
sets as being separate, but I think our philosophy is, is
around the fact that they're really the same thing.
I mean, I, I, I think they're the same thing.
Many of the skill sets that are required for project controls
are the same as project management.
And that's not to say they're uniform.
There are things that come outside of each discipline.
If there's a way of characterising it, I'd say that
project controls tend to be more tactical.
It tends to be about what, what should be happening in the
future, what has happened, what trends, what performance, you
know, that kind of thing. And about making suggestions
that project managers then have to go and do something about.
I mean, if you, if you drew a Venn diagram of project
management and project controls, my view is that they'd be very
largely overlapping. It there'd be, you know, very
much the the overlap and and and little bits around the outside
where the the nuanced skills lay.
What would lie on the outside of those circles?
Very little. I think the only thing would be
particular technical skills, you know, how a tool set in
particular works would be something that an expert project
controller would know and would manage.
But in terms of what goes into that tool, you know, and, and
this could be, I don't know, a piece of software that dealt
with risk or planning or estimating, whatever it would be
in terms of the, the, the important information that goes
in and the information that comes out, It's very much of
interest to to all parties. So I suppose it's that technical
skill rather than anything that you could say is a finite
discipline. One example perhaps is something
that you might consider sits in project management and not in
project controls might be the management of health and safety.
But I would argue that's not the case because one thing, that's
the moral responsibility that everybody would have to be
concerned about health and safety.
Secondly, there's things around how you plan things so that work
is enacted in a Safeway. So there's there's, there's
really nothing. And this is what I would try to,
to encourage any project control to think about.
There's nothing that's not of interest to you in a project.
You have to be interested in anything because you have to
understand the whole context. OK, Karen, is there anything
you'd like to add to that? Yeah.
So just kind of building from what Paul said, the way that I
kind of see the difference between project controls and
project management is, yes, the skills are common, but it's how
they are then applied. So for example, project
management is very strategic and more directional, whereas the I
always describe kind of project controls as the data engine of
the project. It's where you get all the
information. And especially in times where
we've got evolving and exponentially increasing kind of
data sources and data sets, really it's the project controls
professionals within the project that really focus in on how to
get the best use of that data and help and aid the project in
terms of like making those right decisions.
So it very much is how the how the skill sets are kind of used,
but they're very much overlapped from my perspective.
You've obviously both been very successful within Project
controls. Could you give our listeners an
idea of your kind of career trajectory and what have been
the biggest lessons you've learned around project controls?
When I first answered this question it was the first half
of my career was in engineering and project management roles.
I suspect now I've reached the other end of my career.
It was only the first third, but I was a a engineer and a manager
of of sections of work, eventually becoming a project
manager. The actual reason I moved into
project control was to get on the get on to an interesting
project, a particular particular project that I was interested in
at the time. It was the refurbishment of
Smithfield Meat Market or the the second part of actually very
interesting project and one of those teams that are one of the
best teams I ever worked with. Funny enough, it wasn't, it
wasn't a big project in in terms of major infrastructure projects
in this country, etcetera. But it but it was a great
project to be on because the team gelled in a very
interesting way. And we might, we might touch on
teamwork later on, but we were a team that became greater than
the sum of our parts because I suppose, you know, we had
individual weaknesses. One of my weaknesses at the time
was not knowing what project controls were and planning were.
But to have that particular responsibility was a bit of a
challenge. But I think out of that came a
lot of learning. One was there is a way into
project controls from project management, particularly in my
industry, I think because of the high regard that having the
technical knowledge, the engineering knowledge most
important. And that's not necessarily true
in other industries, but it very much is in the construction
industry. I, I suppose the second thing
that I would say is it wasn't long before I was being called
an expert or even even a guru. And I used to really shy away
from these terms because all I've done is, you know, I mean,
at the time there was a little bit of information on the
Internet and there was a, a couple of pages in a book about
some of this kind of stuff. It was hard to get hold of
information. And so by reading 2 pages in a
textbook and two web pages or whatever it was, suddenly you're
a guru. And it's ridiculous.
And I, but I think the point is, if you, for people interested in
project controls, if you're really, I mean, don't get me
wrong, you can go into project controls, you can go back into
project management. You can use project controls as
a route into project management. You can use it as a route into
other areas in the business because you learn.
So you get so many sort of key skills in, in the field of
project controls. They, they, they are useful
elsewhere. But if you wanted to be that
expert project controller, then the key is to be interested, to
explore things and and be critical as well.
Mind you, you don't have to believe that all the, you know,
shiny new toys that people want to sell you are, are worthwhile
or are right for your situation. Might be a, a better way of
putting that. But it's, it's to be interested
and it's to have that I, I don't like the word their passion very
much because it seems that everybody is passionate about
everything. But it is having that passion
for, for the subject matter. And I think you can go a long
way with that, particularly in a subject that some, some people
for some reason that I can't fathom, think is a bit of a dry
subject. But there we go.
Carolyn, how what's been your career trajectory and what would
you say of the biggest lesson or lessons that you've picked up
around project controls? My approach was completely
different and so my career pathway has been completely
different to Paul's, which I think is testament to how broad
kind of project controls can be. I fell into it after university.
I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job and didn't really
understand what project controls was.
I didn't even realise that it existed.
And I joined a fence company in their project management
graduate scheme. And at that time I only knew
about project management. And essentially as you do on
kind of graduate schemes, you rotate around the various
different areas. And I met a really, really
inspirational project controls professional at that time and he
kind of opened my eyes into this kind of world that I found
really fascinating in terms of understanding loads of complex
things and making it simple for people to understand and like
problem solving. And that bit was really, really
interesting to me. And throughout my career, I've
kind of drifted in and out of industries.
I've worked in defence, I've worked in rail, I've worked in
infrastructure, I've worked in in all sorts of different types
of projects and programmes. I've done transformational
change. But ultimately the bit that I
keep always coming back to, which is central for me for
project controls professionals, is that, that passion for
problem solving and that ability to kind of really understand
quite a lot of detailed and complex data, but then work with
people similar to Paul, that teamwork and that, that working
with people and communicating and collaborating with loads of
different people to get a good result in the end.
And it it, it's very similar to project management, but I
enjoyed the data analysis side of it very much so And that was
much more suited in the project controls kind of domain that
equally. Yeah, it kind of goes hand in
hand. It sounds so you you need to
have the broader perspective, but also be able to drill down
into the technical detail for project controls.
That's that's a really interesting mix because normally
people focus on one or the other.
But would you agree with that? Yeah, definitely.
I think I always kind of define it as you need to be able to
kind of switch between a helicopter vision to see what
the project manager is seeing in terms of the strategy, the
vision, the mission, the outcomes, the benefits that
you're trying to achieve. But then also be able to guide
the team in that really, really detailed kind of micro level
work. And it, it does take much more
work around learning the tools and the techniques.
But for me, the power in it is how it's communicated and how
you collaborate with others in order to be able to make that,
make that jump from lower level detail into kind of higher level
detail easy for people. Because it's not always easy to
understand, especially quick moving and quite complex
interconnected project, it's very difficult for people to
make that leap. So for me, a project, a good
project controls person can help people make that leap between
the detail and the high level and kind of go up and down the
different levels. Have you, have you had a
favourite project you've worked on?
And I'm going to ask you what events were did you first work
on that you were doing as a project controller?
So my first, my first ever project was working on a
training system for submarines. So it was kind of like a
training simulator. And that was absolutely
fascinating. It was one of the first projects
that I ever worked on that I kind of cut my teeth on, so to
speak, as like a role that was important.
I was assistant project manager on the Aircraft Carrier Alliance
and that always is spawned in my heart as like a programme that I
really, really enjoyed working on.
There was a really, really good collaborative kind of cross
cross alliancing team with loads of different people from loads
of different organisations. I was learning tonnes really,
really early in my career. Felt like I was completely out
of my depth and learning every day.
And that's probably one of the favourite, favourite projects
that I always look back fondly on.
Oh. That's pretty what I mean.
This lead to me to ask you. I mean, why does project
controls matter more now than ever?
I mean, you've already explained to me an idea of how you're able
to going to highly complex, sophisticated programmes and
projects and try and simplify it.
And I'd imagine part of that is to make sure that everyone's
working to a kind of common purpose and vision and
understand how everyone fits in. But I don't know who wants to go
first. Quite a big question, But you
know, why does project controls matter more now than ever?
Why do they matter now more now? I don't know.
If they do matter now more, I think they've always mattered.
I suppose the thing though, is it's about the future.
I mean, if we've if we've run projects not as well as we could
have done in the past, that's the past.
And we always need to get better at what we do.
So that's that, that that's that's why it matters now to
just improve, to continuously improve.
You know, we might, we might start from a position that we're
actually pretty good at, at this stuff doesn't matter.
We've got to be better tomorrow. And I think the economic
situation that, that we find ourselves in this country,
perhaps the even the world situation that we find ourselves
in means that there's limited resources, money's got to be
spent wisely. We've got to behave
professionally. And, and these are all things
that project controls helps you do.
I mean, you need the, you need the projects and changing times
that we live in require projects perhaps even more than ever.
And therefore you need good project controls.
The two things, as I said, are not dissimilar and, and, and you
need both to go hand in hand. And the pace of change, it's the
pace of change that means that projects have to be more
flexible and more agile. And there there is a technique
called agile, which I don't, I don't mean here, I mean just
genuinely agile. We have to be able to react to
change, to change things. And in traditional project
management, that's change can be a really big factor in project
failure. So we must be better at it.
We must be professional about how we deal with it.
We must be rigorous about how we deal with it and we must be
disciplined about how we deal with it.
So I, I think that's why you know, those elements of
controls. And as, as, as part of getting
that control, you need to set things up such that you are as
flexible as possible so that you can react to, to change in the
world in the environment as quickly as possible.
So you know, that's why it's you know it as important now stroke
even more important now than than than than in the past.
So actually the the greater the discipline and the focus and the
control, the you're actually giving a project the ability to
be more flexible, adaptable and and agile to what's going on.
Yes, I mean, that's exactly how things have to be designed.
It's very easy to set down rules that say that thou shalt not
change anything, for example. I mean, that'd be great if you
could do it and it would make life easier and it would make,
well, it maybe it'd make some people's jobs superfluous.
But it, it, it, it's, it's not the reality of where we are.
You know, we get a, as we've seen in recent weeks, even
recent days, the world we live in is can change on a, on a pin
in, in an instant. It's absolutely vital that we're
able to pivot and change and that we're able to make the
right decision about things as well.
And where I would say project controls helps with the right
decision is it's in several areas.
It's in what should we do to correct things that are going
wrong, etcetera, etcetera. It's actually also more
fundamental than that sometimes to say, should we carry on doing
the things that we're doing or do we need to, you know, go back
to the drawing board, as it were, and do something
different. So I, I think, I think just the
world situation being in such flux at the moment is, you know,
does make projects more important and makes how projects
control themselves much more important.
Carolyn, what do you think? So I think certainly everything
that Paul has said, but also I, I see that this is a level of
flexibility in the the ever changing landscape that we have.
I see project controls as providing solid frameworks.
There are more guardrails rather than mandates because you need
that level of flexibility, you need that level of agility.
And especially in what much more kind of media focused times
where there's a lot of social focus on what's the what a lot
of spend is been spent on and what the benefits, what social
benefits, what the outcomes are. There are often different ways
of measuring project success and project controls provides that
data and that insight and that ability to measure projects in
different ways. And ultimately it's that it's
that rich, that rich data provided in a flexible framework
that really the project controls profession can really help with,
especially in this landscape where we have more
interconnections, more complex kind of working landscapes and
systems. This is how ultimately the
project controls profession can help.
Does project controls touch on that area of those broader,
almost intangible benefits that are delivered about how people
feel about projects afterwards? Is does it cover that area?
Is it very much just about the data and specific ways of
measuring? Established ways of measuring
success? Well, certainly kind of my
perception on this is that good, good project control should be
right away through the life of any project or programme,
however large or complex. So right away from the kind of
business case when you're thinking around the the outcomes
and the benefits, ultimately project controls has a a role to
play in that initial kind of ideation going through into the
quantification of the benefits and then the tracking of those.
And it's very easy to always think that benefits equals found
notes or dollars or some tangible value.
And ultimately it's also those different as you say that that
different quantitative and qualitative measures of success
on a project and a programme. And certainly it's, it's always
easier to focus on the the kind of tangible bits, the bits that
you can grab hold of and touch and feel.
But certainly there is emerging kind of trends and practises
around those more qualitative measures and how that can be
cracked and monitored not just throughout the life of a project
and programme, but then take Crossroads for example, onwards
when it actually gets into kind of public use.
And I think that's where there a heavy crossover between the kind
of role of the projects team whilst that project is in in
flight and then what happens post that and how those benefits
then landed and realise. We're APM, the only chartered
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apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
society benefits. Are there any high profile
projects that could have been more successful if better
project controls had been implemented?
Or can you think or have you covered in?
You know any successful case studies where project controls
is really fundamental to the success of that project?
If any examples either of you would like to give on either of
those two sides. I think specific examples are
really, really hard, but if you have a look at the NAO website
for example, there's lots and lots of published data around
kind of lessons learned and best practise and things like that.
So sorry NAO, the National Audit Office.
National Audit Office, yes. So if we go back to if we go
back to kind of what we were saying around successes, success
depends on the perception and the state who, who is the
stakeholder who that's perceiving whether the project
is successful or not. Is it the end user?
Is it the the person that's having to pay for it?
Is it like there's different gauges on what success looks
like? But ultimately I think that
broadly there is a, there is a direct correlation and perhaps
Paul, you can talk about some of your experiences in this, there
is a direct correlation between when there is good and effective
project controls with with success.
Paul, do you want to kind of go a bit further on that?
I I, I did an exercise for the company I was working.
I mean, I'm like Caroline. I'm going to be a bit coy about
mentioning natural projects or companies names for reasons I'm
not sure that the, the listeners will appreciate.
But I, I did an exercise comparing project controls
maturity. You know, we, we measured it as
part of an improvement programme.
So we had a whole series of good through to through to poor in
terms of adoption of good project control practises.
So we measured that and I did this exercise where I compared
it with profitability. And there's a very strong
relationship between good project controls and
profitability. It's, it's, it's, it's not, you
know, it's not, you're 100% guaranteed to be profitable if
you're doing good project controls, but it's a very strong
marker that that that leads towards good project
performance. I guess there are probably other
things you could compare and say, yes, you know, projects
that are well run in one way tend to perform better, but it
was a, you know, the particular exercises it has to say it was
based on. I, I can't remember somewhere
between 30 and 50 projects that were running at the time.
And and and there's it was a very strong correlation between
the two. Certainly from my broad
experience, if I can kind of summarise it into kind of three
fundamental things that make the difference.
It's not necessarily the detailed project controls
techniques, for example, if you do or do not have like really
detailed and intricate plans, it's not necessarily the
methodologies that makes the difference.
It's making sure that the ultimately data is connected,
that it's well communicated and that you have the right
behaviours and culture within the project that enables that
success. So making sure that there's
that, that right leadership. And if there's one thing that
flows through all of the experiences that I've had today
whereby there are projects that were more successful than others
through the use of project controls, it always comes down
to those 3 fundamental things. If they're not in place, then
ultimately you could have the, you could have the best
techniques and tool sets and methodologies from a technical
perspective in the world. But ultimately if you can't
communicate effectively to all of your various stakeholders, if
it's not all connected so it's not telling a common joined up
story, and then you don't have the right pulpit and behaviours
in place, then ultimately even the best project controls can
fail. So I think that's probably my
take away in terms of when I have seen it been super
successful. It's those 3 fundamentals that
that make the difference. Yeah, I think that's a really
important, important point about tools and techniques.
The most important thing is that and, and the reason, the reason
why some tools are better than others, I suppose, is because of
what they make you do. And if they make you talk to
each other and if they make you try and solve problems, then
they're doing their job. And that's, I think that's a
really important thing to. And I think, you know, it's a
lesson I could have done with learning a lot earlier than I
did, even when I was in project controls.
The important thing is not, you know, counting the widgets and
making a trend graph. The important thing is
explaining to somebody what that trend graph means, what's going
to happen if you don't change things and what you can do to
change things to make things better or to exploit
opportunities if you're in the fortunate position of, you know,
being in a good place. So I think I think it's really
important. It's not so much about the
tools, it's about how you use them to aid communication.
And communication is is is key to what we do.
So when there's poor project controls, it's when one of
these, one of these three things missing.
But but I mean, I did have a question around where did, where
does project controls need to improve right now?
So I've been noticing how often you've been talking about your
communication leadership. So it's the kind of people's
side of things. And I wondered is that where
there needs to be some improvement or you know you
talked earlier, Paul about continuous improvement and so is
that one area that you is that one area, both of you Phil is so
more could be done, more could be learnt?
I think, yeah, I think that's kind of the philosophy behind
what we've done with this book is, is, yeah, the technical
skills, sometimes they're done pretty well and they're
absolutely essential. I mean, you can't, you can't be
in project controls if you can't, if you can't do the
fundamentals right. But I think in order to, you
know, to build on the theme of of continuous improvement, it is
those other things. And it's not just communication.
I think it's leadership as well is another, is another
fundamental, you know, we need, we need to consider ourselves to
be the leaders of the project now.
And I know when it's in, in most situations, it's likely to be a
project manager. But we need to take
responsibility in project controls for making sure that
the project is LED well and has the right information, has the
right insight, and it's done well.
So communication, leadership, you have those problem solving
skills, facilitation of other people, you know, getting people
to talk. All of those things are the
vital skills that we need to think about to elevate project
controls, to make it into, you know, the friend of the project
manager rather than somebody just pointing at a trend and
saying, Oh dear, I predict dot dot dot.
What you just said, it all sounds, you make it sound very
easy, but I imagine in practise it's not that easy.
What just to pin you down a bit more about leadership, What
makes for a good leader? What have you noticed on on the
front line of projects? What makes for a good leader and
what makes for a good team? There's probably 2 fundamental
things to do with projects. 11 is does the project have a
purpose that people believe in? But the second thing and, and,
and, and relevant to your particular, your particular
question now is, is the culture right in project controls?
You know, you can glibly say, well, we're about telling the
truth. Do you actually operate in a
culture where you can tell the truth?
Is it even the right thing to do sometimes?
Maybe, you know, there's politics and nuance and all
these things that you have to consider.
So it's, it's not as black and white as, as, as perhaps we've
been implying, but it does mean the culture that you operate by
the ethics with which you are prepared to operating yourself
or perhaps another side to it. I think probably the, the only
answer to that is that when we talk about, when we talk about
leadership in particular, I think there's often an
unconscious bias to always assume that it means the senior
leaders within a, in a project or a programme.
And when I think about leadership, I think about how
can, how can we set up a culture and set up an environment where
every single person, irrelevant of whether they are The
Apprentice that's just joined the, the assistant planner, the
the risk manager, the project manager, the the director, they
all have a role to play in leadership and they can all lead
in their sphere of influence and their sphere of control.
And ultimately, when I think about how to set up high
performing teams, and I don't think this is unique to project
controls. I think this is across the
entirety of the project professions.
How do we come together as a group and really empower each
other to lead in our own areas? And I think you need to have,
you need to have the trust, you need to have the respect, you
need to have the underlying culture of being able to have
those creative problem solving conversations with each other
and recognise each of the strengths and weaknesses.
And then also have that kind of group critical thinking skills
to really make sure that you're making the best, the best
decision with all of the information available so that
collectively you can move forward in a positive direction.
And for me, that is the fundamental difference between
A-Team of people that are operating and versus A-Team of
people that are a effective high performing team.
It's that sense of trust, that sense of collective direction
and ownership really. And I think we all have a role
to play in setting that culture and empowering everybody within
our teams to really lead by example and lean into that.
That sounds like a wonderful world to live in.
Is that the reality, or do people still play the blame
game, you know, Or do you feel as though things are looking
pretty good now when it comes to the culture of projects broadly?
I think it's always going to be a challenge because there's
always going to be, there's always going to be politics,
there's always going to be budgetary constraints and
fractural constraints. And let's face it, we are all
only human. We can only do the best of with
what we what we can, what we can deal with.
So I think will we ever get to that kind of panacea state where
actually we can kind of achieve that end goal where everybody's
empowered? No, we can't.
It's a continual improvement and a continual evolution.
And that's one of the kind of features that I'm really
passionate about in terms of high performing team teams,
specifically in project controls is making sure that there's
there's not that kind of settling for good enough that
there's always that striving and that continuous improvement to
see how we can tweak and adjust our approach so that it can be
more collaborative, more data, data orientated where possible,
more creative in terms of the problem solving, etcetera.
Because kind of going back to I think it was one of the comments
that Paul made earlier in terms of what project controls isn't,
is just kind of a reporting engine.
Unless we're doing something about that data and that
information and that insight, really it's not going to move
the needle on success. And I think it's challenging
ourselves on that. So it's a continual, it's a
continual process, I would say. Obviously, I want to ask you
about data. We live in a world now that is
obsessed and having to face up to AI and everyone's jumping on
it and some people are panicking and some people are using it
well. So big question for both of you
that's probably impossible to answer, but what what do you
think the future direction project controls is, especially
around how quickly data is the use of data and AI and data
analytics and everything around that.
It is progressing and that speed of change.
I think speed of change was inevitable and it's always going
to be faster and we're going to have access to much more than we
ever have done before. I think it's important to
understand that data is only one tool in our toolbox and
therefore it's not the kind of panacea and the answer to
everything. With AI coming in, it's used in
conjunction with other other, other elements that we have.
What is good is that I think with the the emergence of tech
and the emergence of a lot of the, the products and solutions
that are quickly coming onto the market off the back of kind of
AI and machine learning and all of the good stuff that's coming
through. The the lag between availability
of data, which can be then transformed into information and
insights is becoming much closer together.
So ultimately that real time access to information will
empower the project team to be able to really focus more on the
the analysis rather than the actual gathering of that data in
its in its first instance. So I think that side of things
is absolutely fantastic and will continue to evolve and improve.
I think, I think it's interesting that I'm tempted to
give quite a clear answer to this question, say, well, it's
going to be so much easier for you guys in the future than it
ever was for me. I'm not actually sure that's
true. I think, I think it could be
harder and particularly with the introduction of AII think
there's going to be a, again, a very human reaction could be to
say, Oh, well, the machine will do it all for me.
And the machine will probably do it fairly well most of the time.
There's clearly going to be a period of transition while the
machine learns how to do it. And the, the, the data that,
that, that it's built on is, is, is improved.
But, but I think it's going to be important that somebody,
there's somebody there who understands a couple of things.
1 is how things are put together or how things should be put
together. So that, so that it can, can be
a a critical friend, if you like, of the AI tool that's,
that's built your estimate or schedule or whatever it may be.
And, and the other side is to use the, the sort of human
insight, you know, use the human skills that we still have to, to
change the insight that data will give us into a bit of
foresight, you know, and into problem solving.
And I think that's probably, I mean, you can see, you can see a
world and you consider the pace of change.
It's probably inconceivable how clever machines will get in the
future. But there's, I suspect, and I
suspect we're seeing it already, there's a rocky road between
that kind of Nirvana of, of when everything's working perfectly
and, and where we are today, where, where the machines will
make mistakes, make mistakes, etcetera.
And it's those human skills, I think, that will be important
for critiquing the machines, putting them and putting them
right. Because it's a fantastic vehicle
for communicating, but only if the information is correct and
has been kind of. And that I think currently as
we're going through that learning journey with some of
these, I think there does need to be an awful lot of that kind
of human, human insight and human experience as we're going
through this exponential change. Where are things at right now
with these changes with AI? Do you do if you use them in
projects at the moment, are they being, I mean how they're being
employed or experimented with? Are you able to say?
First of all, it depends on on which industry you're in.
I think some industries are much more exploratory in this area.
But certainly the the real inroads that I've seen and
witnessed is all around that closing of closing of data gap
so that you're getting real time information.
That's one of the things that's coming through really, really
quickly and I think that's a positive step.
The other is around how things can be visualised and also how
how things can be used in a predictive way.
Kind of going through going back to kind of Paul's comment in
terms of that foresight and making sure that the the
predictive analytics is starting to come through because it's all
well and good at seeing where you are today.
It's where potentially you are heading tomorrow.
So that then the human in the loop can then essentially have
the discussions with the team and decide how they, how they
could respond to the various different probabilities of, of
the kind of outcomes of the next stages.
So I think it's broad broadly, I think it's it's becoming a much
better tool to use within, within that space of looking
forward-looking at trends, looking at insights, etcetera.
But yeah, ultimately who who knows where we will be in
another, in another 10 years time.
I have young kids that are both six and seven, and me and my
husband often talk about what their careers and what their
journeys are going to look like because it will be entirely
different to what we've experienced.
Paul, was there anything you'd like to add to that?
I don't in a way think about the future that much other than the,
the point I made previously about we must be aware of the
way things should work or the way things should be set up.
The one thing to directly answer your question is yes, there are
people out there doing stuff. It's quite interesting, I think
in that when people set out with the aim of doing something with
a A, they may end up in a different place, which I think
actually it's great project management that they've,
they've, they've kind of adjusted their goals according
to what is available in terms of data out there that they can
then use for predictive purposes.
So it's definitely out there. It does feel that those people
are, and I have to just qualify this statement that I've been
out of direct project involvement for a couple of
years now. But I would say that those
people seem like they were fairly entrepreneurial at the
moment, You know, people who were ahead of the game and, and,
and, and, you know, working in a place where they probably have
still quite a hard sell now, given the pace of change.
Two years has gone on. And there may be some much
better answers than than I could give to that question about how
they've advanced. But there are definitely people
looking to exploit this area. And there are some people who, I
don't know, probably make a lot of money or lose a lot of money
based on what works and what doesn't work.
The one thing for certain, I think is that it's there, it's
coming and it's and it's getting bigger.
I don't think that detracts from certainly some of my experiences
recently has been to not not overlook making sure that you
have the brilliant basics in place because it's all well and
good building all of the all of the kind of shiny new tools and
technology on to, to try and kind of exploit those.
But if you do not have those brilliant basic foundations in
place, there's very little that you can do to really get the
true value of that. And ultimately, when I talk
about those brilliant basics, it's the it's it's the project
controls techniques and the project management fundamentals
and foundations that really set that up to be able to be
exploited by project teams. So it's just a kind of ordinary
note to not overlook the importance of getting those
rights first. And getting the data right as
well, to get the data clean. OK, Yeah, that's great.
I mean, I've gone through this entire conversation without even
asking you about the book. So let's finish with it.
I mean, what was your guiding purpose for writing the book?
What did you want to achieve with it?
I think we may have different answers to the next question,
given that we're at like, I suppose for me, the motivation
was I, I, I alluded earlier on to being being called an expert
and, and with without necessarily thinking I knew much
and, and that, you know, the guidance that people should take
an interest, etcetera. And I think that's what I've
done in my career and I've looked at things and I've, I've
been critical of, of some of the shiny toys that people have come
in. But I've thought about it and I
think that it is, you know, I, I thought that I had something to
give and I thought it was worth trying to write it all down.
And in a way, that's why this book is the size it is, because
I tried to write everything down, including not just, you
know, how, how, what, what a technique is and how you might
do it, but also some of the tips and tricks that we've learnt
through, through the years. So that was, that was kind of my
motivation. If I want to summarise that in a
more, perhaps even honest way, is, is in a selfish sense, it's
about leaving a legacy. And I think that's important.
You know, you want to be remembered as somebody who
contributed. And I think the final
contribution is to go out there and say, hey, guys, you might
like to consider this. Now, I'm not saying that
everything in the book is, is 100% correct, but it's there to
make you think, I hope. And I think if people think
about things, and I think if people think about things, even
when they're setting up the machines to to do it all for
them, I think that will help get a get a better result.
So really, it was, it was, it was about leaving a legacy,
making sure there's no unfinished business before I
could ride off into the sunset. Karen And what was your what was
your motivation in getting involved?
Just as a bit of a back story, I met Paul when I just started out
in my career through the APM way back when.
I just joined some of the interest groups and for me, this
was around the fact that now I've had that experience and
I've gone through those journeys.
I have only got to where I've got to professionally because of
the support and the encouragement of people within
the profession and that kind of mentoring, that camaraderie and
the profession. And so for me, giving back to a
profession that I'm really, really passionate about, this
has been something that's been really important in my life and
something that I've enjoyed and thrived within.
Really trying to give that back to the community, but also
inspire the next generation of talent that will come through.
I'm hoping that there's somebody that will come into project
control similar to position to me.
I'd have never heard of it before.
Meet somebody that's super passionate about it really early
on in their career and falls in love with that and goes through
a similar a similar career that they enjoy and thrive within.
And so that's kind of one of the main, the main drivers as to why
I've got involved with this one as well.
It's time to wrap up because we've covered so much and it's
been a real insight into world of project controls.
Are there any last words of advice or if there was one thing
that you wanted listeners to go away to think about or take on
board in their in their job, whether it's in project controls
or project manager, what would you like to say?
So for me, it's just reiterating the kind of 3/3 fundamental
things that pull everything together, like making sure that
project controls isn't just there for, for the data, for the
reporting. It really needs to connect
people, connect data, connect information.
It needs to be communicated well.
And that's different for different people and different,
different stakeholders. And it needs to be done in a,
in, in a culture where there are the correct behaviours for that,
that transparent, honest look at where we are on projects and
programmes to really, really transform them for the better.
And that's probably my kind of closing, closing comment.
Yeah. I think I, I think I'd come from
a similar place, particularly with the the latter thing you
said there, Carolyn. I think it goes back to what we
were saying before about having the right culture within which
to operate. I think that's so important and
you're right to you're right to challenge us on that.
Or, you know, the world, the world is not as easy as as as
you know, have the right culture.
Tick, you don't have that. But what you can do is
understand what your own culture, what your own ethics
are and you can live by that. And just that little bit,
whoever you are will influence the organisation you're in.
And the more people that believe, believe in the same,
have the same values and believe in the same values, you know,
people come together and projects form their own culture,
whether it be good or bad, but based based on the on, on who's
on who's in, who's in board. And I bet you, if I went back to
the, the example I talked about before about good project
controls being related to profitability, I bet you'd see
other things there. I bet you'd see a team that
worked well together there because they had the right
environment. So I think that point about
having, whilst it's, you know, it's glib and easy to say you
need the right culture. It's, it is so important.
But if you haven't got it, you, you don't have to walk.
You can, that's the option to go somewhere else.
But that does have the right culture, of course, but also
just by being you and believing what you believe in, you've got
a chance to influence that culture.
And you shouldn't underestimate the influence that you have.
That's a brilliant way to end the podcast.
That's kind of deep, inspirational, and eminently
practical as well. So it's fantastic.
It just leaves me to say thank you to both of you for your time
and for your wisdom and your insights.
So thank you very much for joining the APM podcast.
Thank you. It's.
Been a pleasure. Thanks again to Paul Kidston and
Carolyn Browning for joining us and to you for listening to the
APM Podcast. It's been an eye opening episode
for me about every aspect of project controls, but I hope
you'd agree. Don't forget to look out for
more episodes or to rate and review us.
Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch
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at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
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visit apm.org.uk.