1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,320 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,480 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,920 the editor of Project APM's Cause V Journal and your host. 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,400 In this podcast we're going to find out all about project 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,480 controls. I'm asking Paul Kidston and 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,200 Carolyn Browning everything there is to know about this 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,240 essential part of project management and who better to 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,720 ask? Paul, an engineer, is a former 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,720 director of Project Controls working on projects such as the 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,080 Remodels, Smithfield's meat market in London. 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,240 Carolyn is the Transformation programme manager at online 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,040 business Flutter Entertainment. Both are co-authors, along with 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,480 others of the new APM book Project Controls in the 21st 14 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:52,280 Century, available through the APM website. 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,640 Listen on to find out how a project controller should 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,840 actually be called the Truth Tellers, and how you need to 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,760 have both an eye for the technical details of a project, 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,160 but also be able to step back and join the strategic dots. 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,640 But what really, really matters is the ability to be adept at 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,960 the people side of things like communicating well, problem 21 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:15,320 solving, and being a leader who creates the best kind of project 22 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:18,160 culture. They give valuable lessons for 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:19,960 all. So let's dive straight in. 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,520 Welcome both of you to the APM Podcast. 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,120 Thank you so much for sparing the time to talk to us today. 26 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:30,800 Why don't we start at the beginning? 27 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,800 Let's get back to the fundamentals and ask what is 28 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,680 project controls and how does it differ from project management? 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,800 It depends. People have such different views 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,600 about what project management is and and then it is genuinely 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,240 different in different organisations. 32 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,680 So it'll depend where you are. Some, some will see the skill 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:55,360 sets as being separate, but I think our philosophy is, is 34 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,560 around the fact that they're really the same thing. 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,320 I mean, I, I, I think they're the same thing. 36 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,080 Many of the skill sets that are required for project controls 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,560 are the same as project management. 38 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,000 And that's not to say they're uniform. 39 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,880 There are things that come outside of each discipline. 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,600 If there's a way of characterising it, I'd say that 41 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,320 project controls tend to be more tactical. 42 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,600 It tends to be about what, what should be happening in the 43 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,320 future, what has happened, what trends, what performance, you 44 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,320 know, that kind of thing. And about making suggestions 45 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,600 that project managers then have to go and do something about. 46 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,840 I mean, if you, if you drew a Venn diagram of project 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,920 management and project controls, my view is that they'd be very 48 00:02:35,920 --> 00:02:38,400 largely overlapping. It there'd be, you know, very 49 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,800 much the the overlap and and and little bits around the outside 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,960 where the the nuanced skills lay. 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,640 What would lie on the outside of those circles? 52 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Very little. I think the only thing would be 53 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:54,440 particular technical skills, you know, how a tool set in 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,800 particular works would be something that an expert project 55 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,360 controller would know and would manage. 56 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,920 But in terms of what goes into that tool, you know, and, and 57 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:04,800 this could be, I don't know, a piece of software that dealt 58 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,840 with risk or planning or estimating, whatever it would be 59 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,640 in terms of the, the, the important information that goes 60 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:13,560 in and the information that comes out, It's very much of 61 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,040 interest to to all parties. So I suppose it's that technical 62 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,040 skill rather than anything that you could say is a finite 63 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,440 discipline. One example perhaps is something 64 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,640 that you might consider sits in project management and not in 65 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,880 project controls might be the management of health and safety. 66 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:32,480 But I would argue that's not the case because one thing, that's 67 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,280 the moral responsibility that everybody would have to be 68 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,800 concerned about health and safety. 69 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,360 Secondly, there's things around how you plan things so that work 70 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,280 is enacted in a Safeway. So there's there's, there's 71 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,760 really nothing. And this is what I would try to, 72 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,920 to encourage any project control to think about. 73 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,520 There's nothing that's not of interest to you in a project. 74 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,760 You have to be interested in anything because you have to 75 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,120 understand the whole context. OK, Karen, is there anything 76 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,240 you'd like to add to that? Yeah. 77 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,840 So just kind of building from what Paul said, the way that I 78 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,080 kind of see the difference between project controls and 79 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,640 project management is, yes, the skills are common, but it's how 80 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,480 they are then applied. So for example, project 81 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:20,160 management is very strategic and more directional, whereas the I 82 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,960 always describe kind of project controls as the data engine of 83 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,400 the project. It's where you get all the 84 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,200 information. And especially in times where 85 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,640 we've got evolving and exponentially increasing kind of 86 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,880 data sources and data sets, really it's the project controls 87 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,840 professionals within the project that really focus in on how to 88 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,520 get the best use of that data and help and aid the project in 89 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,960 terms of like making those right decisions. 90 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,160 So it very much is how the how the skill sets are kind of used, 91 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,680 but they're very much overlapped from my perspective. 92 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,440 You've obviously both been very successful within Project 93 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,560 controls. Could you give our listeners an 94 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,360 idea of your kind of career trajectory and what have been 95 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,960 the biggest lessons you've learned around project controls? 96 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:12,680 When I first answered this question it was the first half 97 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,400 of my career was in engineering and project management roles. 98 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:18,880 I suspect now I've reached the other end of my career. 99 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:24,440 It was only the first third, but I was a a engineer and a manager 100 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,760 of of sections of work, eventually becoming a project 101 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,880 manager. The actual reason I moved into 102 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,680 project control was to get on the get on to an interesting 103 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,400 project, a particular particular project that I was interested in 104 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,000 at the time. It was the refurbishment of 105 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,440 Smithfield Meat Market or the the second part of actually very 106 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,640 interesting project and one of those teams that are one of the 107 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,520 best teams I ever worked with. Funny enough, it wasn't, it 108 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,840 wasn't a big project in in terms of major infrastructure projects 109 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:53,560 in this country, etcetera. But it but it was a great 110 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,480 project to be on because the team gelled in a very 111 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,720 interesting way. And we might, we might touch on 112 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,840 teamwork later on, but we were a team that became greater than 113 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:06,560 the sum of our parts because I suppose, you know, we had 114 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,640 individual weaknesses. One of my weaknesses at the time 115 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,480 was not knowing what project controls were and planning were. 116 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,480 But to have that particular responsibility was a bit of a 117 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,560 challenge. But I think out of that came a 118 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,760 lot of learning. One was there is a way into 119 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,320 project controls from project management, particularly in my 120 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,360 industry, I think because of the high regard that having the 121 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,320 technical knowledge, the engineering knowledge most 122 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,000 important. And that's not necessarily true 123 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,320 in other industries, but it very much is in the construction 124 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,640 industry. I, I suppose the second thing 125 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:37,240 that I would say is it wasn't long before I was being called 126 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,840 an expert or even even a guru. And I used to really shy away 127 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:43,800 from these terms because all I've done is, you know, I mean, 128 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,400 at the time there was a little bit of information on the 129 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,400 Internet and there was a, a couple of pages in a book about 130 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,080 some of this kind of stuff. It was hard to get hold of 131 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,360 information. And so by reading 2 pages in a 132 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,640 textbook and two web pages or whatever it was, suddenly you're 133 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,120 a guru. And it's ridiculous. 134 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,320 And I, but I think the point is, if you, for people interested in 135 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,080 project controls, if you're really, I mean, don't get me 136 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,560 wrong, you can go into project controls, you can go back into 137 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,200 project management. You can use project controls as 138 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,720 a route into project management. You can use it as a route into 139 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,200 other areas in the business because you learn. 140 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,800 So you get so many sort of key skills in, in the field of 141 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,000 project controls. They, they, they are useful 142 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,440 elsewhere. But if you wanted to be that 143 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,880 expert project controller, then the key is to be interested, to 144 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,280 explore things and and be critical as well. 145 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,040 Mind you, you don't have to believe that all the, you know, 146 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,640 shiny new toys that people want to sell you are, are worthwhile 147 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,040 or are right for your situation. Might be a, a better way of 148 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,480 putting that. But it's, it's to be interested 149 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,160 and it's to have that I, I don't like the word their passion very 150 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,920 much because it seems that everybody is passionate about 151 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,040 everything. But it is having that passion 152 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,920 for, for the subject matter. And I think you can go a long 153 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:53,880 way with that, particularly in a subject that some, some people 154 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,160 for some reason that I can't fathom, think is a bit of a dry 155 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,640 subject. But there we go. 156 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,760 Carolyn, how what's been your career trajectory and what would 157 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,760 you say of the biggest lesson or lessons that you've picked up 158 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,120 around project controls? My approach was completely 159 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,360 different and so my career pathway has been completely 160 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,720 different to Paul's, which I think is testament to how broad 161 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,400 kind of project controls can be. I fell into it after university. 162 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:27,880 I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job and didn't really 163 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,120 understand what project controls was. 164 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:31,880 I didn't even realise that it existed. 165 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,840 And I joined a fence company in their project management 166 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,200 graduate scheme. And at that time I only knew 167 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,360 about project management. And essentially as you do on 168 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,800 kind of graduate schemes, you rotate around the various 169 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,040 different areas. And I met a really, really 170 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:56,120 inspirational project controls professional at that time and he 171 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,480 kind of opened my eyes into this kind of world that I found 172 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,760 really fascinating in terms of understanding loads of complex 173 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,040 things and making it simple for people to understand and like 174 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,320 problem solving. And that bit was really, really 175 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,600 interesting to me. And throughout my career, I've 176 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,520 kind of drifted in and out of industries. 177 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,280 I've worked in defence, I've worked in rail, I've worked in 178 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,480 infrastructure, I've worked in in all sorts of different types 179 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,320 of projects and programmes. I've done transformational 180 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,920 change. But ultimately the bit that I 181 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,760 keep always coming back to, which is central for me for 182 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,120 project controls professionals, is that, that passion for 183 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,160 problem solving and that ability to kind of really understand 184 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,560 quite a lot of detailed and complex data, but then work with 185 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:53,640 people similar to Paul, that teamwork and that, that working 186 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,600 with people and communicating and collaborating with loads of 187 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,800 different people to get a good result in the end. 188 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,680 And it it, it's very similar to project management, but I 189 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,040 enjoyed the data analysis side of it very much so And that was 190 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,560 much more suited in the project controls kind of domain that 191 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:15,480 equally. Yeah, it kind of goes hand in 192 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,200 hand. It sounds so you you need to 193 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,320 have the broader perspective, but also be able to drill down 194 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,800 into the technical detail for project controls. 195 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,920 That's that's a really interesting mix because normally 196 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,520 people focus on one or the other. 197 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,600 But would you agree with that? Yeah, definitely. 198 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,480 I think I always kind of define it as you need to be able to 199 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,200 kind of switch between a helicopter vision to see what 200 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,400 the project manager is seeing in terms of the strategy, the 201 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,520 vision, the mission, the outcomes, the benefits that 202 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,720 you're trying to achieve. But then also be able to guide 203 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,080 the team in that really, really detailed kind of micro level 204 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,520 work. And it, it does take much more 205 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,480 work around learning the tools and the techniques. 206 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,320 But for me, the power in it is how it's communicated and how 207 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,960 you collaborate with others in order to be able to make that, 208 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,840 make that jump from lower level detail into kind of higher level 209 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,360 detail easy for people. Because it's not always easy to 210 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,080 understand, especially quick moving and quite complex 211 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,080 interconnected project, it's very difficult for people to 212 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,560 make that leap. So for me, a project, a good 213 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:26,040 project controls person can help people make that leap between 214 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,960 the detail and the high level and kind of go up and down the 215 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,160 different levels. Have you, have you had a 216 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,960 favourite project you've worked on? 217 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,680 And I'm going to ask you what events were did you first work 218 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:39,080 on that you were doing as a project controller? 219 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,560 So my first, my first ever project was working on a 220 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:50,360 training system for submarines. So it was kind of like a 221 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,440 training simulator. And that was absolutely 222 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,800 fascinating. It was one of the first projects 223 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,400 that I ever worked on that I kind of cut my teeth on, so to 224 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,560 speak, as like a role that was important. 225 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,560 I was assistant project manager on the Aircraft Carrier Alliance 226 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:10,080 and that always is spawned in my heart as like a programme that I 227 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:11,560 really, really enjoyed working on. 228 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,920 There was a really, really good collaborative kind of cross 229 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,720 cross alliancing team with loads of different people from loads 230 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,240 of different organisations. I was learning tonnes really, 231 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,320 really early in my career. Felt like I was completely out 232 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:26,880 of my depth and learning every day. 233 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,440 And that's probably one of the favourite, favourite projects 234 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,280 that I always look back fondly on. 235 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:32,960 Oh. That's pretty what I mean. 236 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,480 This lead to me to ask you. I mean, why does project 237 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,440 controls matter more now than ever? 238 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,720 I mean, you've already explained to me an idea of how you're able 239 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,440 to going to highly complex, sophisticated programmes and 240 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,480 projects and try and simplify it. 241 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,480 And I'd imagine part of that is to make sure that everyone's 242 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,960 working to a kind of common purpose and vision and 243 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,200 understand how everyone fits in. But I don't know who wants to go 244 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,840 first. Quite a big question, But you 245 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,280 know, why does project controls matter more now than ever? 246 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,440 Why do they matter now more now? I don't know. 247 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,840 If they do matter now more, I think they've always mattered. 248 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,600 I suppose the thing though, is it's about the future. 249 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,640 I mean, if we've if we've run projects not as well as we could 250 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,200 have done in the past, that's the past. 251 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,480 And we always need to get better at what we do. 252 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,000 So that's that, that that's that's why it matters now to 253 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,560 just improve, to continuously improve. 254 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:26,720 You know, we might, we might start from a position that we're 255 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,440 actually pretty good at, at this stuff doesn't matter. 256 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,040 We've got to be better tomorrow. And I think the economic 257 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,160 situation that, that we find ourselves in this country, 258 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,360 perhaps the even the world situation that we find ourselves 259 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,840 in means that there's limited resources, money's got to be 260 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,280 spent wisely. We've got to behave 261 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,040 professionally. And, and these are all things 262 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,760 that project controls helps you do. 263 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,280 I mean, you need the, you need the projects and changing times 264 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,320 that we live in require projects perhaps even more than ever. 265 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,160 And therefore you need good project controls. 266 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,320 The two things, as I said, are not dissimilar and, and, and you 267 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,160 need both to go hand in hand. And the pace of change, it's the 268 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,480 pace of change that means that projects have to be more 269 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,360 flexible and more agile. And there there is a technique 270 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,920 called agile, which I don't, I don't mean here, I mean just 271 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,680 genuinely agile. We have to be able to react to 272 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,960 change, to change things. And in traditional project 273 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,560 management, that's change can be a really big factor in project 274 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,960 failure. So we must be better at it. 275 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,880 We must be professional about how we deal with it. 276 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,640 We must be rigorous about how we deal with it and we must be 277 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,440 disciplined about how we deal with it. 278 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,600 So I, I think that's why you know, those elements of 279 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,880 controls. And as, as, as part of getting 280 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,960 that control, you need to set things up such that you are as 281 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,480 flexible as possible so that you can react to, to change in the 282 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,400 world in the environment as quickly as possible. 283 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,720 So you know, that's why it's you know it as important now stroke 284 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,880 even more important now than than than than in the past. 285 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,160 So actually the the greater the discipline and the focus and the 286 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,720 control, the you're actually giving a project the ability to 287 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,520 be more flexible, adaptable and and agile to what's going on. 288 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,040 Yes, I mean, that's exactly how things have to be designed. 289 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,280 It's very easy to set down rules that say that thou shalt not 290 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,480 change anything, for example. I mean, that'd be great if you 291 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,320 could do it and it would make life easier and it would make, 292 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,480 well, it maybe it'd make some people's jobs superfluous. 293 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,800 But it, it, it, it's, it's not the reality of where we are. 294 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,960 You know, we get a, as we've seen in recent weeks, even 295 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,800 recent days, the world we live in is can change on a, on a pin 296 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,280 in, in an instant. It's absolutely vital that we're 297 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,640 able to pivot and change and that we're able to make the 298 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,640 right decision about things as well. 299 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,840 And where I would say project controls helps with the right 300 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,240 decision is it's in several areas. 301 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,120 It's in what should we do to correct things that are going 302 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,440 wrong, etcetera, etcetera. It's actually also more 303 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,600 fundamental than that sometimes to say, should we carry on doing 304 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,560 the things that we're doing or do we need to, you know, go back 305 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,160 to the drawing board, as it were, and do something 306 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,160 different. So I, I think, I think just the 307 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,760 world situation being in such flux at the moment is, you know, 308 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,240 does make projects more important and makes how projects 309 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,160 control themselves much more important. 310 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,640 Carolyn, what do you think? So I think certainly everything 311 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,760 that Paul has said, but also I, I see that this is a level of 312 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,000 flexibility in the the ever changing landscape that we have. 313 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,680 I see project controls as providing solid frameworks. 314 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,640 There are more guardrails rather than mandates because you need 315 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,560 that level of flexibility, you need that level of agility. 316 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,720 And especially in what much more kind of media focused times 317 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,120 where there's a lot of social focus on what's the what a lot 318 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,840 of spend is been spent on and what the benefits, what social 319 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,680 benefits, what the outcomes are. There are often different ways 320 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,040 of measuring project success and project controls provides that 321 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,240 data and that insight and that ability to measure projects in 322 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,319 different ways. And ultimately it's that it's 323 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:14,359 that rich, that rich data provided in a flexible framework 324 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,079 that really the project controls profession can really help with, 325 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,079 especially in this landscape where we have more 326 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:26,079 interconnections, more complex kind of working landscapes and 327 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,320 systems. This is how ultimately the 328 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,200 project controls profession can help. 329 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,760 Does project controls touch on that area of those broader, 330 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,240 almost intangible benefits that are delivered about how people 331 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,760 feel about projects afterwards? Is does it cover that area? 332 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,280 Is it very much just about the data and specific ways of 333 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,760 measuring? Established ways of measuring 334 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,480 success? Well, certainly kind of my 335 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,440 perception on this is that good, good project control should be 336 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,560 right away through the life of any project or programme, 337 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,320 however large or complex. So right away from the kind of 338 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,760 business case when you're thinking around the the outcomes 339 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,080 and the benefits, ultimately project controls has a a role to 340 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,080 play in that initial kind of ideation going through into the 341 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,840 quantification of the benefits and then the tracking of those. 342 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,760 And it's very easy to always think that benefits equals found 343 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,680 notes or dollars or some tangible value. 344 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,160 And ultimately it's also those different as you say that that 345 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,640 different quantitative and qualitative measures of success 346 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:43,200 on a project and a programme. And certainly it's, it's always 347 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,360 easier to focus on the the kind of tangible bits, the bits that 348 00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,760 you can grab hold of and touch and feel. 349 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,840 But certainly there is emerging kind of trends and practises 350 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,080 around those more qualitative measures and how that can be 351 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,000 cracked and monitored not just throughout the life of a project 352 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,920 and programme, but then take Crossroads for example, onwards 353 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,520 when it actually gets into kind of public use. 354 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,400 And I think that's where there a heavy crossover between the kind 355 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,560 of role of the projects team whilst that project is in in 356 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,560 flight and then what happens post that and how those benefits 357 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,560 then landed and realise. We're APM, the only chartered 358 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,160 membership organisation for the project profession. 359 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,800 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 360 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,600 support you need to make an impact, delivering better 361 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,240 projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive 362 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,560 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 363 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,120 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 364 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:48,480 apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, 365 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,240 society benefits. Are there any high profile 366 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,400 projects that could have been more successful if better 367 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,120 project controls had been implemented? 368 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,400 Or can you think or have you covered in? 369 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,760 You know any successful case studies where project controls 370 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,600 is really fundamental to the success of that project? 371 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,000 If any examples either of you would like to give on either of 372 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,040 those two sides. I think specific examples are 373 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,440 really, really hard, but if you have a look at the NAO website 374 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,640 for example, there's lots and lots of published data around 375 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,840 kind of lessons learned and best practise and things like that. 376 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,560 So sorry NAO, the National Audit Office. 377 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,640 National Audit Office, yes. So if we go back to if we go 378 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,200 back to kind of what we were saying around successes, success 379 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,800 depends on the perception and the state who, who is the 380 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,640 stakeholder who that's perceiving whether the project 381 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,880 is successful or not. Is it the end user? 382 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:54,120 Is it the the person that's having to pay for it? 383 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:58,080 Is it like there's different gauges on what success looks 384 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,040 like? But ultimately I think that 385 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,560 broadly there is a, there is a direct correlation and perhaps 386 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Paul, you can talk about some of your experiences in this, there 387 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,360 is a direct correlation between when there is good and effective 388 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,600 project controls with with success. 389 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,880 Paul, do you want to kind of go a bit further on that? 390 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,560 I I, I did an exercise for the company I was working. 391 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,560 I mean, I'm like Caroline. I'm going to be a bit coy about 392 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,960 mentioning natural projects or companies names for reasons I'm 393 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,040 not sure that the, the listeners will appreciate. 394 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,120 But I, I did an exercise comparing project controls 395 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,280 maturity. You know, we, we measured it as 396 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,560 part of an improvement programme. 397 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,160 So we had a whole series of good through to through to poor in 398 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,400 terms of adoption of good project control practises. 399 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,200 So we measured that and I did this exercise where I compared 400 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,880 it with profitability. And there's a very strong 401 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,280 relationship between good project controls and 402 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,160 profitability. It's, it's, it's, it's not, you 403 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,160 know, it's not, you're 100% guaranteed to be profitable if 404 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,880 you're doing good project controls, but it's a very strong 405 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,320 marker that that that leads towards good project 406 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,400 performance. I guess there are probably other 407 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,560 things you could compare and say, yes, you know, projects 408 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,320 that are well run in one way tend to perform better, but it 409 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,800 was a, you know, the particular exercises it has to say it was 410 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,600 based on. I, I can't remember somewhere 411 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,080 between 30 and 50 projects that were running at the time. 412 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,160 And and and there's it was a very strong correlation between 413 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,640 the two. Certainly from my broad 414 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,640 experience, if I can kind of summarise it into kind of three 415 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,680 fundamental things that make the difference. 416 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,400 It's not necessarily the detailed project controls 417 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,080 techniques, for example, if you do or do not have like really 418 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,720 detailed and intricate plans, it's not necessarily the 419 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,040 methodologies that makes the difference. 420 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:01,040 It's making sure that the ultimately data is connected, 421 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:04,400 that it's well communicated and that you have the right 422 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,520 behaviours and culture within the project that enables that 423 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,840 success. So making sure that there's 424 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,160 that, that right leadership. And if there's one thing that 425 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,280 flows through all of the experiences that I've had today 426 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,600 whereby there are projects that were more successful than others 427 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,000 through the use of project controls, it always comes down 428 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,360 to those 3 fundamental things. If they're not in place, then 429 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:34,480 ultimately you could have the, you could have the best 430 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,440 techniques and tool sets and methodologies from a technical 431 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,760 perspective in the world. But ultimately if you can't 432 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,720 communicate effectively to all of your various stakeholders, if 433 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,480 it's not all connected so it's not telling a common joined up 434 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,600 story, and then you don't have the right pulpit and behaviours 435 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,320 in place, then ultimately even the best project controls can 436 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,000 fail. So I think that's probably my 437 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,720 take away in terms of when I have seen it been super 438 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,840 successful. It's those 3 fundamentals that 439 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,200 that make the difference. Yeah, I think that's a really 440 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,720 important, important point about tools and techniques. 441 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,120 The most important thing is that and, and the reason, the reason 442 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,560 why some tools are better than others, I suppose, is because of 443 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,920 what they make you do. And if they make you talk to 444 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,640 each other and if they make you try and solve problems, then 445 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,360 they're doing their job. And that's, I think that's a 446 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:34,040 really important thing to. And I think, you know, it's a 447 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,040 lesson I could have done with learning a lot earlier than I 448 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,720 did, even when I was in project controls. 449 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,240 The important thing is not, you know, counting the widgets and 450 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,760 making a trend graph. The important thing is 451 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,800 explaining to somebody what that trend graph means, what's going 452 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,360 to happen if you don't change things and what you can do to 453 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,160 change things to make things better or to exploit 454 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,120 opportunities if you're in the fortunate position of, you know, 455 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,280 being in a good place. So I think I think it's really 456 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,640 important. It's not so much about the 457 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,960 tools, it's about how you use them to aid communication. 458 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,480 And communication is is is key to what we do. 459 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,760 So when there's poor project controls, it's when one of 460 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,720 these, one of these three things missing. 461 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,160 But but I mean, I did have a question around where did, where 462 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,640 does project controls need to improve right now? 463 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,640 So I've been noticing how often you've been talking about your 464 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,360 communication leadership. So it's the kind of people's 465 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,960 side of things. And I wondered is that where 466 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,200 there needs to be some improvement or you know you 467 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,600 talked earlier, Paul about continuous improvement and so is 468 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,440 that one area that you is that one area, both of you Phil is so 469 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,240 more could be done, more could be learnt? 470 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,240 I think, yeah, I think that's kind of the philosophy behind 471 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,000 what we've done with this book is, is, yeah, the technical 472 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,760 skills, sometimes they're done pretty well and they're 473 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,880 absolutely essential. I mean, you can't, you can't be 474 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,440 in project controls if you can't, if you can't do the 475 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,360 fundamentals right. But I think in order to, you 476 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:07,400 know, to build on the theme of of continuous improvement, it is 477 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,760 those other things. And it's not just communication. 478 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,200 I think it's leadership as well is another, is another 479 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,480 fundamental, you know, we need, we need to consider ourselves to 480 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,560 be the leaders of the project now. 481 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,720 And I know when it's in, in most situations, it's likely to be a 482 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,360 project manager. But we need to take 483 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,880 responsibility in project controls for making sure that 484 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,200 the project is LED well and has the right information, has the 485 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,600 right insight, and it's done well. 486 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,400 So communication, leadership, you have those problem solving 487 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,240 skills, facilitation of other people, you know, getting people 488 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,040 to talk. All of those things are the 489 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,760 vital skills that we need to think about to elevate project 490 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,280 controls, to make it into, you know, the friend of the project 491 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,760 manager rather than somebody just pointing at a trend and 492 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,800 saying, Oh dear, I predict dot dot dot. 493 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,440 What you just said, it all sounds, you make it sound very 494 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,040 easy, but I imagine in practise it's not that easy. 495 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,960 What just to pin you down a bit more about leadership, What 496 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,680 makes for a good leader? What have you noticed on on the 497 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,400 front line of projects? What makes for a good leader and 498 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,160 what makes for a good team? There's probably 2 fundamental 499 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,160 things to do with projects. 11 is does the project have a 500 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,800 purpose that people believe in? But the second thing and, and, 501 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,000 and, and relevant to your particular, your particular 502 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,400 question now is, is the culture right in project controls? 503 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,920 You know, you can glibly say, well, we're about telling the 504 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,200 truth. Do you actually operate in a 505 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,600 culture where you can tell the truth? 506 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,640 Is it even the right thing to do sometimes? 507 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,520 Maybe, you know, there's politics and nuance and all 508 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,880 these things that you have to consider. 509 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,080 So it's, it's not as black and white as, as, as perhaps we've 510 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,640 been implying, but it does mean the culture that you operate by 511 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,640 the ethics with which you are prepared to operating yourself 512 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,080 or perhaps another side to it. I think probably the, the only 513 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,520 answer to that is that when we talk about, when we talk about 514 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,640 leadership in particular, I think there's often an 515 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,680 unconscious bias to always assume that it means the senior 516 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,120 leaders within a, in a project or a programme. 517 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,600 And when I think about leadership, I think about how 518 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,080 can, how can we set up a culture and set up an environment where 519 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,640 every single person, irrelevant of whether they are The 520 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Apprentice that's just joined the, the assistant planner, the 521 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,920 the risk manager, the project manager, the the director, they 522 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,880 all have a role to play in leadership and they can all lead 523 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,040 in their sphere of influence and their sphere of control. 524 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,120 And ultimately, when I think about how to set up high 525 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,880 performing teams, and I don't think this is unique to project 526 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,400 controls. I think this is across the 527 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,280 entirety of the project professions. 528 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:56,440 How do we come together as a group and really empower each 529 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,440 other to lead in our own areas? And I think you need to have, 530 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120 you need to have the trust, you need to have the respect, you 531 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,120 need to have the underlying culture of being able to have 532 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,800 those creative problem solving conversations with each other 533 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,280 and recognise each of the strengths and weaknesses. 534 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,520 And then also have that kind of group critical thinking skills 535 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,320 to really make sure that you're making the best, the best 536 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,160 decision with all of the information available so that 537 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,400 collectively you can move forward in a positive direction. 538 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,280 And for me, that is the fundamental difference between 539 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,520 A-Team of people that are operating and versus A-Team of 540 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,840 people that are a effective high performing team. 541 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,320 It's that sense of trust, that sense of collective direction 542 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,360 and ownership really. And I think we all have a role 543 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:57,240 to play in setting that culture and empowering everybody within 544 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,080 our teams to really lead by example and lean into that. 545 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,400 That sounds like a wonderful world to live in. 546 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,080 Is that the reality, or do people still play the blame 547 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,360 game, you know, Or do you feel as though things are looking 548 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,720 pretty good now when it comes to the culture of projects broadly? 549 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,880 I think it's always going to be a challenge because there's 550 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,640 always going to be, there's always going to be politics, 551 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,480 there's always going to be budgetary constraints and 552 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,000 fractural constraints. And let's face it, we are all 553 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,120 only human. We can only do the best of with 554 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,800 what we what we can, what we can deal with. 555 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,640 So I think will we ever get to that kind of panacea state where 556 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,400 actually we can kind of achieve that end goal where everybody's 557 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,640 empowered? No, we can't. 558 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,600 It's a continual improvement and a continual evolution. 559 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,800 And that's one of the kind of features that I'm really 560 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,880 passionate about in terms of high performing team teams, 561 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,120 specifically in project controls is making sure that there's 562 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,840 there's not that kind of settling for good enough that 563 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,960 there's always that striving and that continuous improvement to 564 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,680 see how we can tweak and adjust our approach so that it can be 565 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,200 more collaborative, more data, data orientated where possible, 566 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,680 more creative in terms of the problem solving, etcetera. 567 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,120 Because kind of going back to I think it was one of the comments 568 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,080 that Paul made earlier in terms of what project controls isn't, 569 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,440 is just kind of a reporting engine. 570 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,000 Unless we're doing something about that data and that 571 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,480 information and that insight, really it's not going to move 572 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,400 the needle on success. And I think it's challenging 573 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,320 ourselves on that. So it's a continual, it's a 574 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,320 continual process, I would say. Obviously, I want to ask you 575 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,880 about data. We live in a world now that is 576 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,000 obsessed and having to face up to AI and everyone's jumping on 577 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,680 it and some people are panicking and some people are using it 578 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,240 well. So big question for both of you 579 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,040 that's probably impossible to answer, but what what do you 580 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,560 think the future direction project controls is, especially 581 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,840 around how quickly data is the use of data and AI and data 582 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,480 analytics and everything around that. 583 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,840 It is progressing and that speed of change. 584 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,360 I think speed of change was inevitable and it's always going 585 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:25,640 to be faster and we're going to have access to much more than we 586 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,880 ever have done before. I think it's important to 587 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,160 understand that data is only one tool in our toolbox and 588 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,240 therefore it's not the kind of panacea and the answer to 589 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,440 everything. With AI coming in, it's used in 590 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,200 conjunction with other other, other elements that we have. 591 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,920 What is good is that I think with the the emergence of tech 592 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,840 and the emergence of a lot of the, the products and solutions 593 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,280 that are quickly coming onto the market off the back of kind of 594 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,840 AI and machine learning and all of the good stuff that's coming 595 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,320 through. The the lag between availability 596 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,480 of data, which can be then transformed into information and 597 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,320 insights is becoming much closer together. 598 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,280 So ultimately that real time access to information will 599 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,000 empower the project team to be able to really focus more on the 600 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,560 the analysis rather than the actual gathering of that data in 601 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,000 its in its first instance. So I think that side of things 602 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,600 is absolutely fantastic and will continue to evolve and improve. 603 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,440 I think, I think it's interesting that I'm tempted to 604 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,920 give quite a clear answer to this question, say, well, it's 605 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,480 going to be so much easier for you guys in the future than it 606 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,920 ever was for me. I'm not actually sure that's 607 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,200 true. I think, I think it could be 608 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,720 harder and particularly with the introduction of AII think 609 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,520 there's going to be a, again, a very human reaction could be to 610 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,280 say, Oh, well, the machine will do it all for me. 611 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,840 And the machine will probably do it fairly well most of the time. 612 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,720 There's clearly going to be a period of transition while the 613 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,840 machine learns how to do it. And the, the, the data that, 614 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,960 that, that it's built on is, is, is improved. 615 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,639 But, but I think it's going to be important that somebody, 616 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,080 there's somebody there who understands a couple of things. 617 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,760 1 is how things are put together or how things should be put 618 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,480 together. So that, so that it can, can be 619 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,679 a a critical friend, if you like, of the AI tool that's, 620 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,800 that's built your estimate or schedule or whatever it may be. 621 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,360 And, and the other side is to use the, the sort of human 622 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,080 insight, you know, use the human skills that we still have to, to 623 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,960 change the insight that data will give us into a bit of 624 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,040 foresight, you know, and into problem solving. 625 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,360 And I think that's probably, I mean, you can see, you can see a 626 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,880 world and you consider the pace of change. 627 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,320 It's probably inconceivable how clever machines will get in the 628 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,920 future. But there's, I suspect, and I 629 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,560 suspect we're seeing it already, there's a rocky road between 630 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,280 that kind of Nirvana of, of when everything's working perfectly 631 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,760 and, and where we are today, where, where the machines will 632 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,120 make mistakes, make mistakes, etcetera. 633 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,840 And it's those human skills, I think, that will be important 634 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,560 for critiquing the machines, putting them and putting them 635 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,680 right. Because it's a fantastic vehicle 636 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,560 for communicating, but only if the information is correct and 637 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,160 has been kind of. And that I think currently as 638 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,760 we're going through that learning journey with some of 639 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,320 these, I think there does need to be an awful lot of that kind 640 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,040 of human, human insight and human experience as we're going 641 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,840 through this exponential change. Where are things at right now 642 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,280 with these changes with AI? Do you do if you use them in 643 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,840 projects at the moment, are they being, I mean how they're being 644 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,880 employed or experimented with? Are you able to say? 645 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,360 First of all, it depends on on which industry you're in. 646 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:57,160 I think some industries are much more exploratory in this area. 647 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,880 But certainly the the real inroads that I've seen and 648 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,280 witnessed is all around that closing of closing of data gap 649 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,480 so that you're getting real time information. 650 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,440 That's one of the things that's coming through really, really 651 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,000 quickly and I think that's a positive step. 652 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:20,760 The other is around how things can be visualised and also how 653 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,400 how things can be used in a predictive way. 654 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,640 Kind of going through going back to kind of Paul's comment in 655 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,720 terms of that foresight and making sure that the the 656 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,880 predictive analytics is starting to come through because it's all 657 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,000 well and good at seeing where you are today. 658 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:39,080 It's where potentially you are heading tomorrow. 659 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,480 So that then the human in the loop can then essentially have 660 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,400 the discussions with the team and decide how they, how they 661 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,840 could respond to the various different probabilities of, of 662 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,960 the kind of outcomes of the next stages. 663 00:36:55,240 --> 00:37:01,040 So I think it's broad broadly, I think it's it's becoming a much 664 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,280 better tool to use within, within that space of looking 665 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,440 forward-looking at trends, looking at insights, etcetera. 666 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,120 But yeah, ultimately who who knows where we will be in 667 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:14,160 another, in another 10 years time. 668 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,360 I have young kids that are both six and seven, and me and my 669 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,400 husband often talk about what their careers and what their 670 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,560 journeys are going to look like because it will be entirely 671 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,520 different to what we've experienced. 672 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,200 Paul, was there anything you'd like to add to that? 673 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,960 I don't in a way think about the future that much other than the, 674 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,200 the point I made previously about we must be aware of the 675 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,520 way things should work or the way things should be set up. 676 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,800 The one thing to directly answer your question is yes, there are 677 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,600 people out there doing stuff. It's quite interesting, I think 678 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,280 in that when people set out with the aim of doing something with 679 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,720 a A, they may end up in a different place, which I think 680 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:58,880 actually it's great project management that they've, 681 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,360 they've, they've kind of adjusted their goals according 682 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,960 to what is available in terms of data out there that they can 683 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,920 then use for predictive purposes. 684 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,360 So it's definitely out there. It does feel that those people 685 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,840 are, and I have to just qualify this statement that I've been 686 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,720 out of direct project involvement for a couple of 687 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:19,240 years now. But I would say that those 688 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,600 people seem like they were fairly entrepreneurial at the 689 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,360 moment, You know, people who were ahead of the game and, and, 690 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,480 and, and, you know, working in a place where they probably have 691 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,160 still quite a hard sell now, given the pace of change. 692 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,040 Two years has gone on. And there may be some much 693 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,880 better answers than than I could give to that question about how 694 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,040 they've advanced. But there are definitely people 695 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,760 looking to exploit this area. And there are some people who, I 696 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,920 don't know, probably make a lot of money or lose a lot of money 697 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,320 based on what works and what doesn't work. 698 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,680 The one thing for certain, I think is that it's there, it's 699 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,360 coming and it's and it's getting bigger. 700 00:38:54,680 --> 00:39:00,680 I don't think that detracts from certainly some of my experiences 701 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,920 recently has been to not not overlook making sure that you 702 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,120 have the brilliant basics in place because it's all well and 703 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:14,120 good building all of the all of the kind of shiny new tools and 704 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,320 technology on to, to try and kind of exploit those. 705 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,760 But if you do not have those brilliant basic foundations in 706 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,440 place, there's very little that you can do to really get the 707 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,360 true value of that. And ultimately, when I talk 708 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,640 about those brilliant basics, it's the it's it's the project 709 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,160 controls techniques and the project management fundamentals 710 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,920 and foundations that really set that up to be able to be 711 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,640 exploited by project teams. So it's just a kind of ordinary 712 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,000 note to not overlook the importance of getting those 713 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,320 rights first. And getting the data right as 714 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,800 well, to get the data clean. OK, Yeah, that's great. 715 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,480 I mean, I've gone through this entire conversation without even 716 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,560 asking you about the book. So let's finish with it. 717 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,840 I mean, what was your guiding purpose for writing the book? 718 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,520 What did you want to achieve with it? 719 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,200 I think we may have different answers to the next question, 720 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,160 given that we're at like, I suppose for me, the motivation 721 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,080 was I, I, I alluded earlier on to being being called an expert 722 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,200 and, and with without necessarily thinking I knew much 723 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:28,200 and, and that, you know, the guidance that people should take 724 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,080 an interest, etcetera. And I think that's what I've 725 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,320 done in my career and I've looked at things and I've, I've 726 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,920 been critical of, of some of the shiny toys that people have come 727 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,160 in. But I've thought about it and I 728 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,880 think that it is, you know, I, I thought that I had something to 729 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,640 give and I thought it was worth trying to write it all down. 730 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,320 And in a way, that's why this book is the size it is, because 731 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,800 I tried to write everything down, including not just, you 732 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,440 know, how, how, what, what a technique is and how you might 733 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,600 do it, but also some of the tips and tricks that we've learnt 734 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,800 through, through the years. So that was, that was kind of my 735 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,440 motivation. If I want to summarise that in a 736 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,000 more, perhaps even honest way, is, is in a selfish sense, it's 737 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,560 about leaving a legacy. And I think that's important. 738 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,000 You know, you want to be remembered as somebody who 739 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,160 contributed. And I think the final 740 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,120 contribution is to go out there and say, hey, guys, you might 741 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,600 like to consider this. Now, I'm not saying that 742 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,400 everything in the book is, is 100% correct, but it's there to 743 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,920 make you think, I hope. And I think if people think 744 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,440 about things, and I think if people think about things, even 745 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,200 when they're setting up the machines to to do it all for 746 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,480 them, I think that will help get a get a better result. 747 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,120 So really, it was, it was, it was about leaving a legacy, 748 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,560 making sure there's no unfinished business before I 749 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,760 could ride off into the sunset. Karen And what was your what was 750 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,480 your motivation in getting involved? 751 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,200 Just as a bit of a back story, I met Paul when I just started out 752 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,520 in my career through the APM way back when. 753 00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:00,760 I just joined some of the interest groups and for me, this 754 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,760 was around the fact that now I've had that experience and 755 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,440 I've gone through those journeys. 756 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,080 I have only got to where I've got to professionally because of 757 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:15,720 the support and the encouragement of people within 758 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:20,640 the profession and that kind of mentoring, that camaraderie and 759 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,640 the profession. And so for me, giving back to a 760 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,120 profession that I'm really, really passionate about, this 761 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,200 has been something that's been really important in my life and 762 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,440 something that I've enjoyed and thrived within. 763 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,800 Really trying to give that back to the community, but also 764 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,240 inspire the next generation of talent that will come through. 765 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,960 I'm hoping that there's somebody that will come into project 766 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,920 control similar to position to me. 767 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,080 I'd have never heard of it before. 768 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,680 Meet somebody that's super passionate about it really early 769 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,720 on in their career and falls in love with that and goes through 770 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,520 a similar a similar career that they enjoy and thrive within. 771 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,920 And so that's kind of one of the main, the main drivers as to why 772 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,080 I've got involved with this one as well. 773 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,240 It's time to wrap up because we've covered so much and it's 774 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:13,240 been a real insight into world of project controls. 775 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,320 Are there any last words of advice or if there was one thing 776 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,480 that you wanted listeners to go away to think about or take on 777 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,240 board in their in their job, whether it's in project controls 778 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:25,800 or project manager, what would you like to say? 779 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,480 So for me, it's just reiterating the kind of 3/3 fundamental 780 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,760 things that pull everything together, like making sure that 781 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,440 project controls isn't just there for, for the data, for the 782 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,120 reporting. It really needs to connect 783 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,960 people, connect data, connect information. 784 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,680 It needs to be communicated well. 785 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,280 And that's different for different people and different, 786 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,480 different stakeholders. And it needs to be done in a, 787 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,640 in, in a culture where there are the correct behaviours for that, 788 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:01,520 that transparent, honest look at where we are on projects and 789 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,720 programmes to really, really transform them for the better. 790 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,360 And that's probably my kind of closing, closing comment. 791 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,880 Yeah. I think I, I think I'd come from 792 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,720 a similar place, particularly with the the latter thing you 793 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:18,200 said there, Carolyn. I think it goes back to what we 794 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,680 were saying before about having the right culture within which 795 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,520 to operate. I think that's so important and 796 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,720 you're right to you're right to challenge us on that. 797 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,400 Or, you know, the world, the world is not as easy as as as 798 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,280 you know, have the right culture. 799 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,800 Tick, you don't have that. But what you can do is 800 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,920 understand what your own culture, what your own ethics 801 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,200 are and you can live by that. And just that little bit, 802 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,640 whoever you are will influence the organisation you're in. 803 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,520 And the more people that believe, believe in the same, 804 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,120 have the same values and believe in the same values, you know, 805 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,320 people come together and projects form their own culture, 806 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,840 whether it be good or bad, but based based on the on, on who's 807 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,880 on who's in, who's in board. And I bet you, if I went back to 808 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,240 the, the example I talked about before about good project 809 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,320 controls being related to profitability, I bet you'd see 810 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,840 other things there. I bet you'd see a team that 811 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,280 worked well together there because they had the right 812 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,120 environment. So I think that point about 813 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,920 having, whilst it's, you know, it's glib and easy to say you 814 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,240 need the right culture. It's, it is so important. 815 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,000 But if you haven't got it, you, you don't have to walk. 816 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,080 You can, that's the option to go somewhere else. 817 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,600 But that does have the right culture, of course, but also 818 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,200 just by being you and believing what you believe in, you've got 819 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,920 a chance to influence that culture. 820 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,960 And you shouldn't underestimate the influence that you have. 821 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,320 That's a brilliant way to end the podcast. 822 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,400 That's kind of deep, inspirational, and eminently 823 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,200 practical as well. So it's fantastic. 824 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,160 It just leaves me to say thank you to both of you for your time 825 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,760 and for your wisdom and your insights. 826 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,360 So thank you very much for joining the APM podcast. 827 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:52,120 Thank you. It's. 828 00:45:52,280 --> 00:46:03,840 Been a pleasure. Thanks again to Paul Kidston and 829 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,800 Carolyn Browning for joining us and to you for listening to the 830 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,920 APM Podcast. It's been an eye opening episode 831 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,320 for me about every aspect of project controls, but I hope 832 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,440 you'd agree. Don't forget to look out for 833 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,400 more episodes or to rate and review us. 834 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,840 Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch 835 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,840 with your comments, feedback, and suggestions by emailing us 836 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,360 at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 837 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,080 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 838 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,400 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 839 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,760 visit apm.org.uk.